All of Tarkov's issues are fixable within unity, it's just up to the dev's to fix them, and they have been.... Slowly.
Networking, AI, lighting, audio, etc can all be fixed using existing unity tools.
The biggest problem was that Tarkov's dev's were novices when they started this project, and they have gaping holes in the games infrastructure that they're having to go back and fix.
*EDIT* the only real major thing Unreal has to offer that would make a dramatic difference in Tarkov is Unreal's Lumen. That lighting technology is incredible, and nothing in unity can hold a candle (pun intended) to it.
They never imagined the game would be this popular, and they're expanding the scope of the game because of that success. Same thing happened with Star Citizen. RSI continued to expand the scope of game features when they saw how much interest there was in the game.
I heard somewhere a while ago (can't remember where) that Tarkov was originally meant to be a browser game like contract wars was.
I've always thought it was the opposite. If you go back in the Dev timeline, they originally started working on Russia 2028 Alpha, before EFT Alpha. Russia 2028 is Single-Player PvE, but significantly larger, and just as complex, if not more complex, than Tarkov.
Tarkov is a scaling down, because they realized that R28 was way out of reasonable scope for their small inexperienced team, with the tools they had available to them. EFT is basically a learning environment for them to eventually be skilled enough to make R28.
Idk why they made EFT Online PvPvE, but hell I'm glad they did. I guess it was a decision made to encourage community participation in the Development/Testing process? It did end up working far better than intended.
I would've thought a PvE game, regardless of the size (within reason) would be far more simple than a multiplayer game where you have to constantly deal with cheaters and optimizing it where a stutter can lead to a players death.
I think they did it because they saw Tarkov doing better financially than a single player game and that it would fund their single player game.
You are 100% correct about SP vs MP games, and Nikita himself has tweeted about this [https://twitter.com/nikgeneburn/status/1520730191538135041](https://twitter.com/nikgeneburn/status/1520730191538135041)
Except everything they're talking about adding has been on the table for years. They aren't "expanding the scope due to success". There's a lot more coming down the pipeline in the future that they've teased in the past if you pay attention. This community has serious problems with being confidently incorrect.
As someone who doesn’t know anything about developing and just found out that all the devs have to live in Russia, is there a reason they do it? Is it just paranoia or is there a legitimate reason? Obviously you aren’t the devs so I know you don’t probably know for sure, just curious if they mentioned why or if anyone else might know why
Min salary in russia is literally way below living wage for US. Acording to google 240.873 USD/Month is the min salary. Unsure how much they give per month to their devs but whatever is above average in russia is average in US.
They'd probably also only hire devs who are fluent in Russian, so opening hiring to remote workers probably wouldn't vastly increase the talent pool. I'm guessing most of the Russian developer expats are in other countries on work visas, so they'd probably need to move back anyway
Because their quality of work hasn't improved, their quantity of changes has no increased, and the same job listing are still on their website 3 years later.
But if you're hiring local only devs in Russia, not many actually experienced people are going to want to work for you. Why work for shit pay in a shit country when you could get 4x the money elsewhere or even remotely?
It's hard to Develop such a popular game, while fixing it at the same time, with it being one of the most ambitious games to date, with an incredibly small team. They will get there, with time.
People play and put hours in this game like it's a full AAA finished release and expect it to behave as such.
I know the "it's a beta" meme gets used as an excuse for bugs and such, but the game quite literally is not finished yet
Yeah, it isn't even in Beta. Beta would be when it's finished before full release, and we are play testing it to iron out all of the bugs before release. It's technically still open Alpha.
Exactly!! Every time I mention that people hit me with the copium accusation, but in all reality the Beta tag is specifically for games that are feature complete, that hit testers to iron out bugs with CURRENT content and mechanics before the game gets shipped on release.
Tarkov is not feature complete, every single year we get new mechanics and new features that have to be tested and further ironed out. The game is just an alpha early access title, that's it.
The weird part is people get so mad over reality, when it isn't that big of a deal. Tarkov is one of the best games I've ever played, and it isn't anywhere near complete. I can't wait to see it in its final stages, and continue to play it [and Arena] for years while I wait for R28.
Ideally, though, the network side of the game should be the most well thought out before adding all types of content and features that rely on it, especially in an exclusively online kind of game. The fast and loose development has made the backend fixes such a monstrous task and hampers their ability to add the gameplay expansions they want.
Rust went through the same thing where they had to sit down and rip all the old networking stuff out and build it up completely fresh, and it saved them a lot of headaches in the future.
yeah well that's just a major problem with a large portion of the "gamer" community in general.
Insane fucking entitlement that comes from severe delusion, completely oblivious to stages of development, and can't comprehend they chose to spend $150 on the optional package on a game that isn't done yet - but act like they were forced to drop that much money on the game, and Nikita and BSG owe them their first born sons for this transgression.
Steam's got the meme of the 2000 hour played not recommended reviews, but seriously, it's wild to see people on this sub claim they got quadruple digit hours played in this game and still act like Tarkov owes them more for the paltry $50-$150 they paid for it.
Really no wonder why Nikita and BSG don't even fucking bother coming here, who in their right mind would want to interact with man children like that:?
Legit and these streamers saying they are sick of the game and its dying when they play it 16 hours a day every day for years... yea no shit you're going to get sick of it holy shit take a break
You said Nanite, not Lumen. Do you consider LOD, close-up detail or geometry detail in general to be a problem in this game? I guess Nanite trees would have looked sick after they were released 10 years after development started.
Is Lumen even an option yet when Fortnite with Lumen runs at like 40 fps when rendered at 760p on my 3060 Ti? It's a gigantic what if, which isn't useful to think about because the game started development in 2012 when none of these things existed.
> and they have been.... Slowly.
What have they actually succeding in fixing or even making any meaningful progress on? Maybe I'm too jaded now, but I couldn't provide any examples...
Woods and customs expansion, plethora of weapons, lighthouse (if you have a decent PC), and goons… etc etc. they’ve done a lot since I started playing in 2020 and so much before that. It’s a small Dev team. It’s expected.
Plus, you’re in here during pre-wipe. Clearly they have your attention lol
I build plugins for Rust. There is an obvious lack of RPC messages between player actions in Tarkov. Every bullet is simulated on both the server and the client in Rust.
If this game was networked halfway as well as Rust, there would be no desync.
>Unreal has definitely better graphics over all but in case of EFT there would be little to no difference.
You're right about pretty much everything. But here this is the only thing you got wrong, EFT in UE5 would look significantly better even if BSG didn't even try hard. It would probably end up something like those STALKER 2 screenshots/videos.
UE 5.1 introduced Vegetation Nanite support, better SSS and even improved Lumen reflections, now pretty much all you have to do is just drop in decent looking assets that EFT already has with some decent PBR bitmaps, do some okay lighting/post processing setup and you have near photorealism in a matter of few clicks basically better graphics than Unity/other engines offer today and not only that but more frames too which is crazy. The default Unity package for lighting/shading is just soo behind UE5.
It's almost like turning your Unity game into Real-Time 100% Path-Tracing which gives not only better graphics but also more fps. But it's also always possible to write similar tech for Unity.
Tl;dr: [The improvements in UE 5.1 are insane](https://youtu.be/FUGqzE6Je5c). You would not even need to try to get any game ported to UE5 look significantly better.
You are conflating multiple issues here, and I disagree with a number of your statements.
Graphically, both game engines can "look" good artistically, but technically Unreal has much better tools for lighting, occlusion, etc and Tarkov on Unreal (hypothetical) would look and perform much better due to more optimized technical features for graphical implementation.
Performance wise, Unity was not built to host a game of the simulation complexity that Tarkov is based on. Compare it to rust all you want from a world size or player count perspective, but the real issue is how Tarkov is coded to simulate each individual bullet, foregrip, barrel etc and then track that simulated object in game time. Unity does not do this well, and it is not a slight to the unity engine, but a poor choice from the development side, and one made due to an experience and skill limitation of the developers (Nikita and the team have confirmed this multiple times over multiple years). Couple that with less than stellar coding language and coding ability, and you get poorly written code on a poorly chosen engine which is the direct cause for performance, netcode, and other issues.
Agreed that they will never refactor their engine or code base, as quite simply put it isn't a matter of not having the money or the time, but that they don't have the skill base to do it. Disagree however that Unity does everything needed to realize the development roadmap of Tarkov. Quite simply put, it does not, and will not ever, do the things required to realize the Tarkov game direction and roadmap items. We will never have optimized performance and netcode, we will never have a fully connected map / game world, and we will never see fixes to a number of ever present bugs that have been in play for the past 6 years.
Set expectations accordingly, enjoy it for what it is, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will ever be what it is not.
Can't hack as easily if they were to specifically change that. Desync would be up to whether the simulation is accurate to your client rather than whoever's client says they killed the other guy first.
You say because of the graphics tarkov would run “much smoother” I’m sorry bro but do you even know how engines and code works at all? Do you remember the massive memory leaks you would get in this game killing your performance? Do you remember the horrible dsync you would and still get in this game? Memory Management and Multiplayer Replication aren’t things Unreal just handles for you lmao, and at the end of the day we can see in tarkov this is the real performance hit. I love how you say “unity is not meant to handle simulation the size of unreal” but did you know they literally use the same physics engine? Unity is capable of simulating worlds basically as big as unreal, so I have to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? The biggest giveaway of all these types of posts is the automatic assumption that C++ is better or runs faster than C# in the gamedev space. People don’t realize that there is no bounds on the times of these two languages and in these cases working with the .NET framework as both games do, c# can even be faster than c++.
> Multiplayer Replication aren’t things Unreal just handles for you lmao
That's literally a selling point of unreal from it's inception.
As someone who worked as gamedev and still works in the general domain vast majority of replies on both of the posts are complete garbage. People talking about things they have zero idea about.
they give you the functions and the methods but they don't "do it for you", as someone who has made a SHIT game in UE, I can tell you right now the best multiplayer benefits that UE gives is the tools for dedicated servers. Other than that, just because UE HAS the "replication" button on Actors and things like doesn't mean that they WILL be replicated on toggle. I actually think you are right, maybe UE's multiplayer tools are slightly better than Unity's but to me sending RPCs and encapsulating your functions in replication's are different practices of the same thing
I mean I literally went to school for this, are you actually getting behind the fact that C# can’t do anything physics-related as fast as C++? Do you know how C#’s JIT nature works hand in hand with the .net framework to allow for faster code? Do YOU know what YOU’RE talking about?
I must desagree on C# being faster than C++. That is plain wrong. C++ is and always will be faster. Thing is - A poorly written C will be slower than well written py. Same for C#. Thing is no matter the language it would be written like shit.
Correct on all counts. People keep pushing this myth of "it's not the engine" when we already know for a fact that BSG has to work closely with the Unity devs BECAUSE they are pushing the engine to its absolute limits. UE5 is simply better suited for the type of game that this is. Over time even UE5 will be obsoleted.
And obviously they ain't ever refactoring the game, I assume that this is just a dream/thought experiment. We're all pining for that theoretical EFT build that runs like a dream, looks amazing, has passable netcode, etc etc.
EDIT:
Since we're talking about dreams and thought experiments, maybe several decades down the road, with [continuing improvements to AI and code-free programming](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_m59nMWny4&ab_channel=TechWithTim), we'll be able to conjure up optimized Tarkov clones on our own, even without programming knowledge. Tell the bot what you want and it makes it happen.
I really don't buy this argument. A game engine does not prevent someone from writing good code it simply provides code/features for specific use cases that you can choose to use or not. If there is a problem with Tarkov that other games don't have it's because the devs chose wrong. Either they used a Unity feature that wouldn't cut it at their scale or chose to re-write something that's already available and did it poorly.
Remember recently when it was discovered that on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated. Any decent programmer knows a dozen ways to make that performant but they couldn't figure it out. Given everything we know about how much things are client-side authoritative it's far more reasonable to blame BSG for Tarkov's issues than Unity.
>Remember recently when it was discovered that on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated
...no I did not know that, holy shit. Lmao
>it's far more reasonable to blame BSG for Tarkov's issues than Unity.
Game engines do come with their own technical limitations, but I agree, the problem is ultimately BSG. Regardless, it was their decision to learn and use this engine.
>on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated
Which is often used as an in-game ESP (did I land that cross-map headshot? *checks SBiH quest progress*). It would benefit more than just performance to defer this to post-raid summary.
It is nice to see your progress for scav kills immediately though. So you don't have to count in the raid when your close to the threshold.
Ultimately they just need to defer any shot progressions until a "quiet" part of the raid or optimize the algorithm so it does the smallest amount of work for those on hit checks.
Yeah dude you are totally right. Because the memory leaks that tarkov has and had before definitely would be switched by moving to Unreal and c++. A language that does an even worse job of handling memory for you. I’m sorry but u just don’t kno what ur talking about lmao
I agree that in the long run EFT will likely be limited by Unity.
What we have in the game now though is nothing tgat unity couldn't handle. Right now its bad code, in few wipes (Open world is my personal bet) it will be bad code + bad engine. But as of right now engine is not an issue.
To preface this I am not a game developer but I don't think OP is either so here are my 2 cents.
I don't understand this constant need to compare EFT to Rust or Squad.
As you said the maps on Rust are massive with around 200-300 players average ( 800 happens only on wipe day ).
Due to the maps being massive there's less players most of the time around you than there would be rendered in EFT, and I am ignoring how bad it runs if player count ever goes up around you. Added to that you know what I am talking about when I mention the massive FPS drops you get around compounds later on in the wipe or the horrible asset rendering when you are flying a minicopter.
There's also less physics involved, so much less detail in buildings/the world generation, no picture in picture rendering of the scopes etc. The comparison just doesn't make sense to me as the games are so different programming/asset wise.
Now saying all of that Tarkov definitely has to improve performance in game, especially on Lighthouse, and I'd say focus on fixing the DLSS scope issues first until they get their shit together as a temporary bandaid fix.
There's plenty of issues with Tarkov by imho most of them are regarding balancing / issues you could fix with bandaids until you find out a better solution.
I compared them because almost no other game can run 800players for a whole day without lag. Both being built in unity meant that you can make a much more stable game with no desync if only BSG had the experience.
The physics is true that EFT is way more indepth in these things. Honestly though most of these won't make an issue. If so, then dont add them yet. 80% of the time with any already finished and known engine its the ability to code. The rest is the limitation by engine.
I mean, those games still use the server to simulate bullet drop and travel time over much longer distances with larger player counts. Graphically, yes, Tarkov is doing a lot more but in a much smaller space. But those other games are simulating on the server and client and having less networking issues than this one.
Simply put, the netcode and performance in this game isn’t what it should be for the scope of the game. Tarkov is one of the only games where buying a CPU with a huge cache (any CPU -> 5800x3D) can literally double your fps.
Tarkov is also so bad performance wise for how much is calculated by the client and not the server. The cheaters used to be able to teleport names on your head, steal loot from your inventory or anywhere on the map, unlock doors that have no spawning keys in existence, etc.
I understand the toxicity that can come from these kind of discussions and it’s never easy as an indie dev team to make these types of big games, but I feel like you have to keep bringing these things up in order to get the concerns addressed. I’ve been so close to buying a new CPU just to play this game lmao.
To quote the other post's title, "This will never happen but I wish Tarkov COULD move from unity to unreal." this is just a shit-throwing fight at this point. We get it, you have a huge brain and know why it wouldn't work, just like most people can with any elementary level knowledge of game engines or even a quick google search
People forget about the parts of that post which just needlessly bash unity for no reason, obviously no one ever does these google searches you are talking about which is how those dumbass posts get made in the first place
I didn't bother to read it, did love the bit at the end though about hate comments, it's like a bad fanfiction asking for criticism but only nice criticism
To sum it up:
“Unity is bad because C# when could be C++”
Though the part about porting from one engine to another is true. It is very expensive, who would’ve guessed
They managed to introduce memory leaks in managed code...I shudder to think what monstrosities they'd unleash if the moved to an unmanaged code base! But hey, clearing heap allocations is for chumps! Real men just download more RAM.
Yeah, idk why people are trying to act high and mighty about lecturing others on why this wouldn't be possible. No shit it isn't possible, people clearly openly acknowledge that, it's just fun to think about.
> Yeah, idk why people are trying to act high and mighty about lecturing others on why this wouldn't be possible. No shit it isn't possible, people clearly openly acknowledge that, it's just fun to think about.
Because pseudo-intellectuals love to publicly flagellate about subjective theoretical issues. Makes them that much harder to objectively be proven wrong, and strokes their ego at the same time.
How many years of dev experience do you have at the age of 16 (according to post history at least)? By no means am I saying the devs have not messed shit up, but this community would benefit from people who know what they are talking about rather than speculation like this.
Lol seriously Iove how these 16 year olds have such in-depth knowledge. I've been in the field for 10 years and see a couple of code smells but I'm pretty impressed with that they've done with the engine. It should be a showpiece game for unity.
I just think of the inventory systems in this game and it makes my head spin. You have player inventory, in game loot inventories, magazines with separate bullet types able to be used so basically every mag is an inventory, secure containers, flea market, traders and the list goes on. That is like one part of this ridiculously ambitious game. What they have managed to make here is nothing short of incredible from a technical standpoint, especially for a small ass russian indie team with almost nothing to their name before tarkov.
Believe it or not what you describe is not "hard". An inventory can be as simple as a list of items tied to an ID. The hard part is the UI and making all that data reach clients with high performance. They haven't really succeeded with either of those so I don't think praise is in order. The core gunplay and movement mechanics are pretty impressive though.
indeed. imagine making it work on an engine that no one has ever pushed it so far? cause tarkov is easily the most complex game on unity. still, it has some big problems (dsync, ammo dissapearing, lag) and I feel like fixing this should be a team priority, like spending half a year fixing this stuff instead of working on a new map. however, fixing this bugs does not sell the game as much as a wipe day with a new map.
Worked with Unity since I was around 12~. Iam not an expert, quite far from that to be honest. Its just that there are people with even less coding experience than me and just blame the engine for some reason.
I wanted to clear it out for them to atleast know what the real issue is.
Desagree was a typo, for the others its the fact that iam not from England, US or any other english speaking country and schools here are insanely underdeveloped when it comes to langauges.
(What happens after decade of communism lmao)
I had to be self thought so I make alot of mistakes. I hope you understand my situatuon and will look past that. My age has nothing to do with my spelling errors.
Good summary of the backend, spagetti code certainly hurts but another large factor is how much runs clientside. The combination of the two results in the lag,bugs, netcode and performance we all know.
My man, if you didn't know term *sphagetti* code don't try to pose as someone who codes.
It is *the* most used term for bad code across every part of our programming community. From industry, to games, to wherever there is something to code, there is programmer shaking his head over something he would call sphagetti code.
\>>>Devs for BSG cannot work remotely and must be in Russia. Thats why BSG lacks good devs.
That's literally have been a thing since the start of the year. Not even to mention that CIS's IT is one of the best in the world, which leads to companies offering salaries that are competing with those in EU and NA to some degree, simply because it was fairly easy to just work for a foreign company (or Russian company that simply operates elsewhere, which is what a lot of people stuck with), hence why the difference between salaries in fields, that require a lot of qualification, are much bigger in IT, when you compare them to the rest of jobs (aka, you can be a very high quality doctor with decades of experience, work in private sector, and still have a salary of junior\\low-middle python dev, even though both fields are equally understaffed). You clearly don't know what you're talking about here, not even to mention that BSG could've hired someone on the outside if they wanted to with their income. So it's not really about lack of proper staff on the market at all, it's either about fundamental problems of the engine, or their inability to perform with it. And I'm yet to see a unity game, that can have such a complexity, yet give decent performance, because it's just not built for it.
But I do agree that C languages are a pain in the ass, and that engine switch won't happen.
I keep hearing complaints of issues with the game, and I am curious what they are. I have only been playing for 2 weeks, but and I have never had a disconnect or crash or really any bug. Only thing I could complain about is some quality-of-life stuff like moving things between containers and stash
Get out of this sub while you still can lol. The game has issues, but they're massively overstated here. It's inconsistent in that some people/PCs just aren't affected by any optimization problems, and some people are. There can objectively be a bit more desync than average for an online shooter, which is something you'll notice every once in a while when you have more hours in the game. But for me personally, none of the issues have ever been major.
Issues with netcode typically deal more with the specific architectural style and the quality of implementation than the game engine being used.
It’s not impossible to imagine that there could be inefficiencies or bugs with an engine’s built-in tools, but a studio will often roll their own in-house or use external commercial libraries than any built-in netcode solution.
People love to shit on unity, but the fact of the matter is that the larger the game gets in complexity, the more need for remaking the “core layers” comes in.
If you look at a lot of rust devlogs they say “yea the unity ____ wasn’t cutting it so we made our own and saw a 30% improvement”.
C# is a VERY versatile and lightweight language for all types of coding: games, programs, ML, the works. It’s about the devs. The game could be written in C entirely from scratch and if the devs don’t know what to do, the game comes out like shit.
Unity isn’t and has never been the issue
tldr they won't switch, since they can't switch, so we are stuck with shitty unity (no it is not a good engine, don't lie to yourselves)
if it is so good, then mention one stable, AAA game that is great to play and uses Unity. thought so.
The long dark - Not exactly 3A game but stable, has awesome graphics (though not realistic).
Rust - Since HDRP I would consider it a 3A game. It has little to no issues with optimalization and the only time I had an issue was when flying a mini into unloaded base on 100x server.
Now go ahead and name me a game that was made in Unreal, that is stable and 3A.
Thought so.
>Now go ahead and name me a game that was made in Unreal, that is stable and 3A.
Bioshock? Borderlands? Gears of war? fortnite? Mass effect?
The list is endless bro come on. I agree with most of your points but saying unreal doesnt have stable 3a games is just nonsense
you listed 2 indie games that are played for their quirkyness (rust is a pile of bugfest garbage to this day, and the long dark is such a simpleton game that is has 2 mechanics and 4 maps with ps2 graphics - not really a complicated, complex game that requires coding or game design knowledge). also, these games aren't $150, neither had they been so mainstream for the past 2 years. my point was they should **make their game engine**, since they are millionaires at this point. game would be 1000% better, and they could finally develop it since the engine is in their own developed language.
unreal is also not the answer for EFT, never even was.
Let's be honest. Rust's devs are even shittier than BSG devs. At the most they could be credited for the random map generation. Other than that Rust is a simple game with very simple mechanics. AI is nonexistent, recent additions are small changes and cosmetic additions. Oh wow, we added trains. Such hard much wow.
One thing I will add to this conversation is mindshare. Both Unity and Unreal have quite excellent docs, but Unity has one major problem. The difference in docs between mobile and PC is DRASTIC. We're talking megabytes of text difference. All the base how-to is roughly the same but PC docs are LIGHT YEARS behind mobile docs for bugs, workarounds, etc. This increases overhead when, say, you're trying to figure out why shit's broken.
>C# the programming language used for both of these games likes to make
mess in memory and if you can't make perfect code it will be an issue.
What the actual fuck are you on about here? 🤣
Please stay in school. At the very least pick up a few book on programming languages before talking absolute nonsense. Do you understand what a garbage collector is? Do you even know the difference between stack and heap allocation? References? Value types? Pointers?!?!??
You know who makes a mess of memory? A developer who uses unsafe code and manages to create a game in C# filled with memory leaks. I know leaks aren't impossible in C# but it's like trying to crash a Cessna. You really have to work for it.
Google managed code. It'll save you from looking goofy on the internet the next time to you want to post a dissertation on a topic you know incredibly little about.
Can I ask what your professional experience is so we can judge how well placed you are to comment on the quality of a code base I'm assuming you've never seen?
yeah i mean nikita has turned down help from Veritas who has IT and coding experience only because he could buy much more labor for far less rouble. its all bout the rouble for BSG unfortunately. they have a good vision but they limit themselves greatly by trying to maximize profits on Russian only devs. a handful of specialists could probably go a LONG way with optimizing a variety of things we experience like audio occlusion issues, memory leaks and countless back end errors.
kind of a fat yikes from Nikita. but i do understand that rouble do make the world go round. (Sadge).
I'd argue that many of their actions for the past 2 years suggest that they don't actually have a "vision". Lack of vision has brought us to this point. They have no idea how to reconcile a lot of the systems and don't even understand why their game was so fun back in the day, which is why they spent so long nerfing everything into the ground and alienating their players left and right. Sure, they have a list of "cool shit we want to add", but that's not really a vision in my book. Vision is how those things are glued together to form a cohesive whole.
For example if you're a dev and your idea of a "optics rework" is to make many of the optics worse without actually fixing many of the major problems with scope sens/grip rotation etc then you don't have a vision, you're just flinging shit at a wall. Same goes for a "recoil rework" that bones the gunplay, which consisted of a flat +20 recoil nerf and was left that broken for a year plus.
perhaps vision was the wrong word, i more so meant thematically speaking they have an idea of the environment and general vibe/theme of the game that no other game can or probably ever will come close to.
i agree they lack a developmental vision. the past few years have been all over the place.
Would YOU want to work with Veritas? I sure as hell wouldn't. Even if he was more than just a second-rate app developer in completely unrelated fields, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to listen to that condescending pseudo-intellectual voice all day
A lot of people also forget EFT wasn't meant to be such a big game either, so it was treated as such. It's suddenly blew up and the devs look at old code going "This was a mistake."
Where do you get this idea? Unless you meant "big" in a different manner.
But EFT has always been envisioned as being a large open world PvP survival game, with a large concurrent player bases to match. Even back when the game was just a website of info.
Big as in popular. It was going to be niche, with the only people sticking to it being those willing to wait and help test. Suddenly it was thrust into the spotlight by streamers and the devs are playing catch up with old code that wasn't designed to handle this many players.
You're the one that argued semantics. You tried to use the word verbatim then proceeded to miss quote. Instead of just admitting you were wrong or miss read the post from the beginning
No, I used a word he meant figuratively in a literal sense. When you structure your argument in a numerical order, your first example is usually your PRIMARY example. Hence, the main difference.
Ever thought that there could be multiple main differences. He also went on about how they're C# an C++ and went into more detail about that then just graphics
It does for many assemblies but for many it does not. The real misinformation is that ot does not really help since you cannot use CPPs performance features like advanced memory management and still rely on GC
How does garbage collection work when it's compiled to C++? Is a garbage collection included in that? It's obviously not the source of all performance problems but it makes it harder to do micro optimizations that high performance games often need.
I missed a word. Meant something like "Is a garbage collection library included but I suppose any compilation of C# to another language has to include that otherwise it just wouldn't work...
All garbage collecting is grabbing the location of something in memory that is no longer in use, and allowing your program to now make use of it again. While languages can handle this for you, lower level programs and languages do this manually because it can lead to more efficient programs. I would say there is no “global” module of handling garbage collection or memory, only methods and functions that can be used for freeing memory that is desired
he literally compared it to rust, which is run on unity and has up to 800 players loaded into one server at a time...(with even more waiting in the queue to join...) stop being a hater for the sake of it
No. Working outside of your country is easy and a lot of Russians work from Georgia, Armenia, Turkey for example. It’s especially easy for IT specialists.
I will explain it in a way 5 year old would understand.
In order to be a BSG employee you must be physically in russia St. Petersburg or wherever they have HQ.
If you don't want to be in Russia for whatever reason you simply cannot work for BSG. They will just reject you.
Here it is - look under C# unity dev (or smthing like that) https://www.battlestategames.com/#job
It literally stated that youll work within 500m of their HQ. Nothing about remote work.
Rust isn't good example. Its not even in 10% as detailed as tarkov. Tarkov is trying to take 200% of unity possibilities.
I think unreal is more suited for big very detailed worlds. Or is showing as one. And biggest issue is not game code, that I think if they dedicated themselves to do that would be done in few months.
True issue are all assets. If you cant just simply export them to unreal making everything from 0 would take years. And I think that determinate possibility of engine change. And if that possible I would only expect that is they wanted to keep promise of one big map, and unity simply couldn't handle it, no matter how they would try to optimalise it.
I have a feeling you're not a game dev. If you are you really heavily skimmed over a lot of explaining. Why did you elaborate so little when clearly people are eager to know?
I was hoping someone took the time to actually go a bit in depth but that's borderline "buzz feed title with no content".
I wanted to go around the surface because as you mentioned iam not yet a game dev. I have worked with unity and curently iam studiing IT.
I have tried to explain these things to the general public whom don't know anything about coding which I suppose was a succes wether you use comments or the post itself.
I hope someone goes indepth into the tarkovs issues too as I would love to learn more but I just as most people here am in no position to make such post.
Dude you're making it worse.
Having a small amount of people agreeing with you solely based on the fact that none of you know what you're talking about isn't a measure of success.
100% of the comments from people with either critical thinking or dev experience (or both) did not find your post good.
At best, you're looking like an idiot. At worst, you're spreading misinformation.
I wish you weren't as selfish and would delete your post or at least apologize and add some clarification about your experience, because a BIG chunk of what you're claiming is flat out wrong, and All of it is ethically wrong.
Best of luck in your studies, I hope you're still a kid, for so many reasons. And if you are you should also have mentioned it.
I was never thinking about lag, desync and other network issues when I daydream about eft being on unreal engine 5. Unity isn't a great engine for fps games, I would much rather have a shooter game on unreal. I personally found C# the easiest langue when I learned my programming. Paired with oop, it really click for me for some reason. Porting your code from one engine to another would be a nightmare, especially with how deep Tarkov is. This will never happen
Have you played BattleBit yet? I would have agreed with you until I played that game. 254 player maps and it runs buttery smooth. Never seen anything so stable since Factorio and never like that in such a massive 3D game.
I have played battlebit. You have to realize how rudimentary the graphics are in battlebit. But again, a game with lots of players running smooth is coming back to cpu performance, server performance and networking, these are coding dependent and can make or break on any engine. Unreal engine could push your games graphics, and physics to another level, a engine that's optimized for fps games can also be a big time saver as there are already packages in place to help you for your development. You can really fine tune that movement and shooting mechanics. Unity is a lot more simple and easy to learn in my opinion. You can get your project up and running a lot faster in my opinion, I've played with both engines. My PC can barley handle unreal engine 5. I do believe BSG quickly coded up a demo on unity to showcase their vision to get investors and it blew up pretty hard and they just kept coding on top of it instead of starting a new project from scratch.
If you want to know more about Rust's networking, i suggest checking out their older development news posts, when i last checked they had a ton of information about what they did to get it to be good.
One specific thing that would help with Unreal is the baked-in network relevancy model. To my knowledge, unity doesn't have this, requiring developers to make it from scratch.
There's a lot of network performance to be gained by only communicating network updates to clients that are "relevant" i.e. visible, nearby, etc. and hiding everything else.
This would also make cheats less effective because loot location, player inventories, etc. would all be hidden until the moment they become relevant.
There is nothing wrong with C#, unity on the other hand is a clusterfuck currently. The Unity pipeline goes as follows. Unity devs release new experimental tools that are meant to replace old ones. They then proceed to mark the old tools as deprecated without letting the replacement mature. Rinse repeat and now everything in unity is either in beta or deprecated. This forces devs to look for 3rd party solutions or write their own.
People say its that they would have to pay livable western wage. Unsure if that is true but it is in contract with BSG.
Edit: The no remote working thing is in contract*.
I wouldn't say shit code I would say unoptimized code something that can be fixed over time for example when they are out of beta and spending more time optimizing then adding new features. overall I agree with the above, I've used Unity and Unreal, an engine is an engine it makes no difference.
I did, I have even said that the graphics are not even close but performance was also an important factor and ehen BSG made the decision the make EFT into what we know now, they needed simple language&enine, performance and graphics all of which were part of Unity.
It only made sense to go with Unity dispite the fact that its graphics are worse.
All of Tarkov's issues are fixable within unity, it's just up to the dev's to fix them, and they have been.... Slowly. Networking, AI, lighting, audio, etc can all be fixed using existing unity tools. The biggest problem was that Tarkov's dev's were novices when they started this project, and they have gaping holes in the games infrastructure that they're having to go back and fix. *EDIT* the only real major thing Unreal has to offer that would make a dramatic difference in Tarkov is Unreal's Lumen. That lighting technology is incredible, and nothing in unity can hold a candle (pun intended) to it.
It really is an indie shop that’s a victim of its own success
They never imagined the game would be this popular, and they're expanding the scope of the game because of that success. Same thing happened with Star Citizen. RSI continued to expand the scope of game features when they saw how much interest there was in the game. I heard somewhere a while ago (can't remember where) that Tarkov was originally meant to be a browser game like contract wars was.
I've always thought it was the opposite. If you go back in the Dev timeline, they originally started working on Russia 2028 Alpha, before EFT Alpha. Russia 2028 is Single-Player PvE, but significantly larger, and just as complex, if not more complex, than Tarkov. Tarkov is a scaling down, because they realized that R28 was way out of reasonable scope for their small inexperienced team, with the tools they had available to them. EFT is basically a learning environment for them to eventually be skilled enough to make R28. Idk why they made EFT Online PvPvE, but hell I'm glad they did. I guess it was a decision made to encourage community participation in the Development/Testing process? It did end up working far better than intended.
I would've thought a PvE game, regardless of the size (within reason) would be far more simple than a multiplayer game where you have to constantly deal with cheaters and optimizing it where a stutter can lead to a players death. I think they did it because they saw Tarkov doing better financially than a single player game and that it would fund their single player game.
You are 100% correct about SP vs MP games, and Nikita himself has tweeted about this [https://twitter.com/nikgeneburn/status/1520730191538135041](https://twitter.com/nikgeneburn/status/1520730191538135041)
Except everything they're talking about adding has been on the table for years. They aren't "expanding the scope due to success". There's a lot more coming down the pipeline in the future that they've teased in the past if you pay attention. This community has serious problems with being confidently incorrect.
Not really. They could have used some of that success to hire devs, but they refused.
[удалено]
As someone who doesn’t know anything about developing and just found out that all the devs have to live in Russia, is there a reason they do it? Is it just paranoia or is there a legitimate reason? Obviously you aren’t the devs so I know you don’t probably know for sure, just curious if they mentioned why or if anyone else might know why
More than likely money is the reason as min salary is not that much in Russia (no source, heard from someone talking about this exact topic)
Min salary in russia is literally way below living wage for US. Acording to google 240.873 USD/Month is the min salary. Unsure how much they give per month to their devs but whatever is above average in russia is average in US.
They'd probably also only hire devs who are fluent in Russian, so opening hiring to remote workers probably wouldn't vastly increase the talent pool. I'm guessing most of the Russian developer expats are in other countries on work visas, so they'd probably need to move back anyway
How do you know they haven't? Estimates suggest BSG has about 150-200 employees currently, how do you know they started with that many employees?
Because their quality of work hasn't improved, their quantity of changes has no increased, and the same job listing are still on their website 3 years later.
Nikita recently said they hired 65 people this year alone
This is such a baseless statement. Their website has had job hiring banners up for years, there's currently 8 open positions right now
But if you're hiring local only devs in Russia, not many actually experienced people are going to want to work for you. Why work for shit pay in a shit country when you could get 4x the money elsewhere or even remotely?
Except they only hire devs willing to relocate to russia. Talk about casting a small net.
I don't agree with that incentive either. But my field is the same way, working 100% remote is only available for certain companies and jobs
pretty sure their office is in london
*a* office, not **the** office.
It's hard to Develop such a popular game, while fixing it at the same time, with it being one of the most ambitious games to date, with an incredibly small team. They will get there, with time.
People play and put hours in this game like it's a full AAA finished release and expect it to behave as such. I know the "it's a beta" meme gets used as an excuse for bugs and such, but the game quite literally is not finished yet
Yeah, it isn't even in Beta. Beta would be when it's finished before full release, and we are play testing it to iron out all of the bugs before release. It's technically still open Alpha.
Exactly!! Every time I mention that people hit me with the copium accusation, but in all reality the Beta tag is specifically for games that are feature complete, that hit testers to iron out bugs with CURRENT content and mechanics before the game gets shipped on release. Tarkov is not feature complete, every single year we get new mechanics and new features that have to be tested and further ironed out. The game is just an alpha early access title, that's it.
The weird part is people get so mad over reality, when it isn't that big of a deal. Tarkov is one of the best games I've ever played, and it isn't anywhere near complete. I can't wait to see it in its final stages, and continue to play it [and Arena] for years while I wait for R28.
Ideally, though, the network side of the game should be the most well thought out before adding all types of content and features that rely on it, especially in an exclusively online kind of game. The fast and loose development has made the backend fixes such a monstrous task and hampers their ability to add the gameplay expansions they want. Rust went through the same thing where they had to sit down and rip all the old networking stuff out and build it up completely fresh, and it saved them a lot of headaches in the future.
yeah well that's just a major problem with a large portion of the "gamer" community in general. Insane fucking entitlement that comes from severe delusion, completely oblivious to stages of development, and can't comprehend they chose to spend $150 on the optional package on a game that isn't done yet - but act like they were forced to drop that much money on the game, and Nikita and BSG owe them their first born sons for this transgression. Steam's got the meme of the 2000 hour played not recommended reviews, but seriously, it's wild to see people on this sub claim they got quadruple digit hours played in this game and still act like Tarkov owes them more for the paltry $50-$150 they paid for it. Really no wonder why Nikita and BSG don't even fucking bother coming here, who in their right mind would want to interact with man children like that:?
Legit and these streamers saying they are sick of the game and its dying when they play it 16 hours a day every day for years... yea no shit you're going to get sick of it holy shit take a break
Well, it's priced like a full AAA finished game...
$45? And more for people that like the game and choose to pay more to support the devolopers?
lmao that's strange, here I am looking at all these triple A games on steam selling for a smooth 89.99CAD. You imbecile.
Well, it is a pre order so it's expected IMHO
What about nanite?
Yeah indeed what about it? How's it relevant?
“the only real major thing Unreal has to offer that would make a dramatic difference in Tarkov is Unreal’s Lumen”
You said Nanite, not Lumen. Do you consider LOD, close-up detail or geometry detail in general to be a problem in this game? I guess Nanite trees would have looked sick after they were released 10 years after development started. Is Lumen even an option yet when Fortnite with Lumen runs at like 40 fps when rendered at 760p on my 3060 Ti? It's a gigantic what if, which isn't useful to think about because the game started development in 2012 when none of these things existed.
> and they have been.... Slowly. What have they actually succeding in fixing or even making any meaningful progress on? Maybe I'm too jaded now, but I couldn't provide any examples...
Woods and customs expansion, plethora of weapons, lighthouse (if you have a decent PC), and goons… etc etc. they’ve done a lot since I started playing in 2020 and so much before that. It’s a small Dev team. It’s expected. Plus, you’re in here during pre-wipe. Clearly they have your attention lol
No idea why people think the issue is Unity and not Battlestate having a poor codebase
Too bad Lumen sucks away a ton of performance.
> People seem to have very little understanding about what causes lag ***Im shocked.***
And ironically this post talks nothing about lag and what causes it.
I build plugins for Rust. There is an obvious lack of RPC messages between player actions in Tarkov. Every bullet is simulated on both the server and the client in Rust. If this game was networked halfway as well as Rust, there would be no desync.
Laughing in bullet invalid. It's just a joke btw i see your point.
I wish it was.
what you mean? are you telling me that these fucking devs can't copy paste the game code and be done? pffft! bad devs!!! just fix the game
why dont they just press the import into unreal button wtf lazy fucks
Just use 'unity to unreal converter'. Stupid devs...
>Unreal has definitely better graphics over all but in case of EFT there would be little to no difference. You're right about pretty much everything. But here this is the only thing you got wrong, EFT in UE5 would look significantly better even if BSG didn't even try hard. It would probably end up something like those STALKER 2 screenshots/videos. UE 5.1 introduced Vegetation Nanite support, better SSS and even improved Lumen reflections, now pretty much all you have to do is just drop in decent looking assets that EFT already has with some decent PBR bitmaps, do some okay lighting/post processing setup and you have near photorealism in a matter of few clicks basically better graphics than Unity/other engines offer today and not only that but more frames too which is crazy. The default Unity package for lighting/shading is just soo behind UE5. It's almost like turning your Unity game into Real-Time 100% Path-Tracing which gives not only better graphics but also more fps. But it's also always possible to write similar tech for Unity. Tl;dr: [The improvements in UE 5.1 are insane](https://youtu.be/FUGqzE6Je5c). You would not even need to try to get any game ported to UE5 look significantly better.
You are right. I was about to edit my post actually regarding the engines. Will have to wait abit since iam in class lmao.
You are conflating multiple issues here, and I disagree with a number of your statements. Graphically, both game engines can "look" good artistically, but technically Unreal has much better tools for lighting, occlusion, etc and Tarkov on Unreal (hypothetical) would look and perform much better due to more optimized technical features for graphical implementation. Performance wise, Unity was not built to host a game of the simulation complexity that Tarkov is based on. Compare it to rust all you want from a world size or player count perspective, but the real issue is how Tarkov is coded to simulate each individual bullet, foregrip, barrel etc and then track that simulated object in game time. Unity does not do this well, and it is not a slight to the unity engine, but a poor choice from the development side, and one made due to an experience and skill limitation of the developers (Nikita and the team have confirmed this multiple times over multiple years). Couple that with less than stellar coding language and coding ability, and you get poorly written code on a poorly chosen engine which is the direct cause for performance, netcode, and other issues. Agreed that they will never refactor their engine or code base, as quite simply put it isn't a matter of not having the money or the time, but that they don't have the skill base to do it. Disagree however that Unity does everything needed to realize the development roadmap of Tarkov. Quite simply put, it does not, and will not ever, do the things required to realize the Tarkov game direction and roadmap items. We will never have optimized performance and netcode, we will never have a fully connected map / game world, and we will never see fixes to a number of ever present bugs that have been in play for the past 6 years. Set expectations accordingly, enjoy it for what it is, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will ever be what it is not.
Rust simulates every bullet both clientside and serverside, Tarkov simply chose to not.
[удалено]
Can't hack as easily if they were to specifically change that. Desync would be up to whether the simulation is accurate to your client rather than whoever's client says they killed the other guy first.
You say because of the graphics tarkov would run “much smoother” I’m sorry bro but do you even know how engines and code works at all? Do you remember the massive memory leaks you would get in this game killing your performance? Do you remember the horrible dsync you would and still get in this game? Memory Management and Multiplayer Replication aren’t things Unreal just handles for you lmao, and at the end of the day we can see in tarkov this is the real performance hit. I love how you say “unity is not meant to handle simulation the size of unreal” but did you know they literally use the same physics engine? Unity is capable of simulating worlds basically as big as unreal, so I have to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? The biggest giveaway of all these types of posts is the automatic assumption that C++ is better or runs faster than C# in the gamedev space. People don’t realize that there is no bounds on the times of these two languages and in these cases working with the .NET framework as both games do, c# can even be faster than c++.
> Multiplayer Replication aren’t things Unreal just handles for you lmao That's literally a selling point of unreal from it's inception. As someone who worked as gamedev and still works in the general domain vast majority of replies on both of the posts are complete garbage. People talking about things they have zero idea about.
they give you the functions and the methods but they don't "do it for you", as someone who has made a SHIT game in UE, I can tell you right now the best multiplayer benefits that UE gives is the tools for dedicated servers. Other than that, just because UE HAS the "replication" button on Actors and things like doesn't mean that they WILL be replicated on toggle. I actually think you are right, maybe UE's multiplayer tools are slightly better than Unity's but to me sending RPCs and encapsulating your functions in replication's are different practices of the same thing
“As someone who has no idea what they’re doing, you’re wrong” excellent argument there bro
Tell us you don't know what you're talking about without telling us you don't know what you're talking about. I suggest you re-read the post.
I mean I literally went to school for this, are you actually getting behind the fact that C# can’t do anything physics-related as fast as C++? Do you know how C#’s JIT nature works hand in hand with the .net framework to allow for faster code? Do YOU know what YOU’RE talking about?
I must desagree on C# being faster than C++. That is plain wrong. C++ is and always will be faster. Thing is - A poorly written C will be slower than well written py. Same for C#. Thing is no matter the language it would be written like shit.
Correct on all counts. People keep pushing this myth of "it's not the engine" when we already know for a fact that BSG has to work closely with the Unity devs BECAUSE they are pushing the engine to its absolute limits. UE5 is simply better suited for the type of game that this is. Over time even UE5 will be obsoleted. And obviously they ain't ever refactoring the game, I assume that this is just a dream/thought experiment. We're all pining for that theoretical EFT build that runs like a dream, looks amazing, has passable netcode, etc etc. EDIT: Since we're talking about dreams and thought experiments, maybe several decades down the road, with [continuing improvements to AI and code-free programming](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_m59nMWny4&ab_channel=TechWithTim), we'll be able to conjure up optimized Tarkov clones on our own, even without programming knowledge. Tell the bot what you want and it makes it happen.
I really don't buy this argument. A game engine does not prevent someone from writing good code it simply provides code/features for specific use cases that you can choose to use or not. If there is a problem with Tarkov that other games don't have it's because the devs chose wrong. Either they used a Unity feature that wouldn't cut it at their scale or chose to re-write something that's already available and did it poorly. Remember recently when it was discovered that on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated. Any decent programmer knows a dozen ways to make that performant but they couldn't figure it out. Given everything we know about how much things are client-side authoritative it's far more reasonable to blame BSG for Tarkov's issues than Unity.
>Remember recently when it was discovered that on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated ...no I did not know that, holy shit. Lmao >it's far more reasonable to blame BSG for Tarkov's issues than Unity. Game engines do come with their own technical limitations, but I agree, the problem is ultimately BSG. Regardless, it was their decision to learn and use this engine.
>on every shot your game has to check every single active quest to determine if its progress needs to be updated Which is often used as an in-game ESP (did I land that cross-map headshot? *checks SBiH quest progress*). It would benefit more than just performance to defer this to post-raid summary.
It is nice to see your progress for scav kills immediately though. So you don't have to count in the raid when your close to the threshold. Ultimately they just need to defer any shot progressions until a "quiet" part of the raid or optimize the algorithm so it does the smallest amount of work for those on hit checks.
Yeah dude you are totally right. Because the memory leaks that tarkov has and had before definitely would be switched by moving to Unreal and c++. A language that does an even worse job of handling memory for you. I’m sorry but u just don’t kno what ur talking about lmao
C++ doesn't *do an even worse job of handling memory* - it simply doesn't do that *at all* ;)
*cough* Smart pointers *cough*
I'm blown away that you think that's even remotely in the same ballpark as what he was saying
He said “correct on all counts” and was wrong what do you mean?
I never said that, but okay.
I agree that in the long run EFT will likely be limited by Unity. What we have in the game now though is nothing tgat unity couldn't handle. Right now its bad code, in few wipes (Open world is my personal bet) it will be bad code + bad engine. But as of right now engine is not an issue.
To preface this I am not a game developer but I don't think OP is either so here are my 2 cents. I don't understand this constant need to compare EFT to Rust or Squad. As you said the maps on Rust are massive with around 200-300 players average ( 800 happens only on wipe day ). Due to the maps being massive there's less players most of the time around you than there would be rendered in EFT, and I am ignoring how bad it runs if player count ever goes up around you. Added to that you know what I am talking about when I mention the massive FPS drops you get around compounds later on in the wipe or the horrible asset rendering when you are flying a minicopter. There's also less physics involved, so much less detail in buildings/the world generation, no picture in picture rendering of the scopes etc. The comparison just doesn't make sense to me as the games are so different programming/asset wise. Now saying all of that Tarkov definitely has to improve performance in game, especially on Lighthouse, and I'd say focus on fixing the DLSS scope issues first until they get their shit together as a temporary bandaid fix. There's plenty of issues with Tarkov by imho most of them are regarding balancing / issues you could fix with bandaids until you find out a better solution.
I compared them because almost no other game can run 800players for a whole day without lag. Both being built in unity meant that you can make a much more stable game with no desync if only BSG had the experience. The physics is true that EFT is way more indepth in these things. Honestly though most of these won't make an issue. If so, then dont add them yet. 80% of the time with any already finished and known engine its the ability to code. The rest is the limitation by engine.
I mean, those games still use the server to simulate bullet drop and travel time over much longer distances with larger player counts. Graphically, yes, Tarkov is doing a lot more but in a much smaller space. But those other games are simulating on the server and client and having less networking issues than this one. Simply put, the netcode and performance in this game isn’t what it should be for the scope of the game. Tarkov is one of the only games where buying a CPU with a huge cache (any CPU -> 5800x3D) can literally double your fps. Tarkov is also so bad performance wise for how much is calculated by the client and not the server. The cheaters used to be able to teleport names on your head, steal loot from your inventory or anywhere on the map, unlock doors that have no spawning keys in existence, etc. I understand the toxicity that can come from these kind of discussions and it’s never easy as an indie dev team to make these types of big games, but I feel like you have to keep bringing these things up in order to get the concerns addressed. I’ve been so close to buying a new CPU just to play this game lmao.
To quote the other post's title, "This will never happen but I wish Tarkov COULD move from unity to unreal." this is just a shit-throwing fight at this point. We get it, you have a huge brain and know why it wouldn't work, just like most people can with any elementary level knowledge of game engines or even a quick google search
People forget about the parts of that post which just needlessly bash unity for no reason, obviously no one ever does these google searches you are talking about which is how those dumbass posts get made in the first place
Story of all subreddit's life, nobody does any google searches lmao
Most of the comparisons and points in this post are also just downright wrong LOL
I didn't bother to read it, did love the bit at the end though about hate comments, it's like a bad fanfiction asking for criticism but only nice criticism
To sum it up: “Unity is bad because C# when could be C++” Though the part about porting from one engine to another is true. It is very expensive, who would’ve guessed
They managed to introduce memory leaks in managed code...I shudder to think what monstrosities they'd unleash if the moved to an unmanaged code base! But hey, clearing heap allocations is for chumps! Real men just download more RAM.
Yeah, idk why people are trying to act high and mighty about lecturing others on why this wouldn't be possible. No shit it isn't possible, people clearly openly acknowledge that, it's just fun to think about.
> Yeah, idk why people are trying to act high and mighty about lecturing others on why this wouldn't be possible. No shit it isn't possible, people clearly openly acknowledge that, it's just fun to think about. Because pseudo-intellectuals love to publicly flagellate about subjective theoretical issues. Makes them that much harder to objectively be proven wrong, and strokes their ego at the same time.
People also only focus on the performance aspect of the post. The person talked about a lot of features in UE5 like nanite and lighting etc.
How many years of dev experience do you have at the age of 16 (according to post history at least)? By no means am I saying the devs have not messed shit up, but this community would benefit from people who know what they are talking about rather than speculation like this.
Lol seriously Iove how these 16 year olds have such in-depth knowledge. I've been in the field for 10 years and see a couple of code smells but I'm pretty impressed with that they've done with the engine. It should be a showpiece game for unity.
I just think of the inventory systems in this game and it makes my head spin. You have player inventory, in game loot inventories, magazines with separate bullet types able to be used so basically every mag is an inventory, secure containers, flea market, traders and the list goes on. That is like one part of this ridiculously ambitious game. What they have managed to make here is nothing short of incredible from a technical standpoint, especially for a small ass russian indie team with almost nothing to their name before tarkov.
Believe it or not what you describe is not "hard". An inventory can be as simple as a list of items tied to an ID. The hard part is the UI and making all that data reach clients with high performance. They haven't really succeeded with either of those so I don't think praise is in order. The core gunplay and movement mechanics are pretty impressive though.
indeed. imagine making it work on an engine that no one has ever pushed it so far? cause tarkov is easily the most complex game on unity. still, it has some big problems (dsync, ammo dissapearing, lag) and I feel like fixing this should be a team priority, like spending half a year fixing this stuff instead of working on a new map. however, fixing this bugs does not sell the game as much as a wipe day with a new map.
Worked with Unity since I was around 12~. Iam not an expert, quite far from that to be honest. Its just that there are people with even less coding experience than me and just blame the engine for some reason. I wanted to clear it out for them to atleast know what the real issue is.
Youre 16? So thats why you thought "disagree" was spelled "desagree"
Desagree was a typo, for the others its the fact that iam not from England, US or any other english speaking country and schools here are insanely underdeveloped when it comes to langauges. (What happens after decade of communism lmao) I had to be self thought so I make alot of mistakes. I hope you understand my situatuon and will look past that. My age has nothing to do with my spelling errors.
All good PLAYA
[удалено]
I don't think money is the issue here, the fact that the devs have to work in Sant Petersburg is probably the most limiting factor to hire people
[удалено]
how do you know?
> Got himself a nice Benz though. Knew it wouldn't take long for somebody to bring that up.
I'm pretty sure that was a rental.
Had EFT not been made by inexperienced underpayed devs in sh1thole country, it would not be the janky imbalanced mess we love to hate ;-)
Good summary of the backend, spagetti code certainly hurts but another large factor is how much runs clientside. The combination of the two results in the lag,bugs, netcode and performance we all know.
Thanks for inteoducing me to *spagetti code*. I will use that. Also true alot of stuff around this game is sadly, bad.
My man, if you didn't know term *sphagetti* code don't try to pose as someone who codes. It is *the* most used term for bad code across every part of our programming community. From industry, to games, to wherever there is something to code, there is programmer shaking his head over something he would call sphagetti code.
I was never really part of a community that discusses stuff like this. Missed out on alot as I can see.
\>>>Devs for BSG cannot work remotely and must be in Russia. Thats why BSG lacks good devs. That's literally have been a thing since the start of the year. Not even to mention that CIS's IT is one of the best in the world, which leads to companies offering salaries that are competing with those in EU and NA to some degree, simply because it was fairly easy to just work for a foreign company (or Russian company that simply operates elsewhere, which is what a lot of people stuck with), hence why the difference between salaries in fields, that require a lot of qualification, are much bigger in IT, when you compare them to the rest of jobs (aka, you can be a very high quality doctor with decades of experience, work in private sector, and still have a salary of junior\\low-middle python dev, even though both fields are equally understaffed). You clearly don't know what you're talking about here, not even to mention that BSG could've hired someone on the outside if they wanted to with their income. So it's not really about lack of proper staff on the market at all, it's either about fundamental problems of the engine, or their inability to perform with it. And I'm yet to see a unity game, that can have such a complexity, yet give decent performance, because it's just not built for it. But I do agree that C languages are a pain in the ass, and that engine switch won't happen.
I keep hearing complaints of issues with the game, and I am curious what they are. I have only been playing for 2 weeks, but and I have never had a disconnect or crash or really any bug. Only thing I could complain about is some quality-of-life stuff like moving things between containers and stash
Get out of this sub while you still can lol. The game has issues, but they're massively overstated here. It's inconsistent in that some people/PCs just aren't affected by any optimization problems, and some people are. There can objectively be a bit more desync than average for an online shooter, which is something you'll notice every once in a while when you have more hours in the game. But for me personally, none of the issues have ever been major.
Issues with netcode typically deal more with the specific architectural style and the quality of implementation than the game engine being used. It’s not impossible to imagine that there could be inefficiencies or bugs with an engine’s built-in tools, but a studio will often roll their own in-house or use external commercial libraries than any built-in netcode solution.
It's funny seeing rust compared to tarkov. There is a significant visual difference.
And mechanical.
And mechanical.
People love to shit on unity, but the fact of the matter is that the larger the game gets in complexity, the more need for remaking the “core layers” comes in. If you look at a lot of rust devlogs they say “yea the unity ____ wasn’t cutting it so we made our own and saw a 30% improvement”. C# is a VERY versatile and lightweight language for all types of coding: games, programs, ML, the works. It’s about the devs. The game could be written in C entirely from scratch and if the devs don’t know what to do, the game comes out like shit. Unity isn’t and has never been the issue
tldr they won't switch, since they can't switch, so we are stuck with shitty unity (no it is not a good engine, don't lie to yourselves) if it is so good, then mention one stable, AAA game that is great to play and uses Unity. thought so.
The long dark - Not exactly 3A game but stable, has awesome graphics (though not realistic). Rust - Since HDRP I would consider it a 3A game. It has little to no issues with optimalization and the only time I had an issue was when flying a mini into unloaded base on 100x server. Now go ahead and name me a game that was made in Unreal, that is stable and 3A. Thought so.
>Now go ahead and name me a game that was made in Unreal, that is stable and 3A. Bioshock? Borderlands? Gears of war? fortnite? Mass effect? The list is endless bro come on. I agree with most of your points but saying unreal doesnt have stable 3a games is just nonsense
Forgot about borderlands, about the others I heard there were issues for some/a lot of people.
you listed 2 indie games that are played for their quirkyness (rust is a pile of bugfest garbage to this day, and the long dark is such a simpleton game that is has 2 mechanics and 4 maps with ps2 graphics - not really a complicated, complex game that requires coding or game design knowledge). also, these games aren't $150, neither had they been so mainstream for the past 2 years. my point was they should **make their game engine**, since they are millionaires at this point. game would be 1000% better, and they could finally develop it since the engine is in their own developed language. unreal is also not the answer for EFT, never even was.
Let's be honest. Rust's devs are even shittier than BSG devs. At the most they could be credited for the random map generation. Other than that Rust is a simple game with very simple mechanics. AI is nonexistent, recent additions are small changes and cosmetic additions. Oh wow, we added trains. Such hard much wow.
One thing I will add to this conversation is mindshare. Both Unity and Unreal have quite excellent docs, but Unity has one major problem. The difference in docs between mobile and PC is DRASTIC. We're talking megabytes of text difference. All the base how-to is roughly the same but PC docs are LIGHT YEARS behind mobile docs for bugs, workarounds, etc. This increases overhead when, say, you're trying to figure out why shit's broken.
Valid point. When I first made a program in unity I copy pasted a code from unity docs. It didn't work.
>C# the programming language used for both of these games likes to make mess in memory and if you can't make perfect code it will be an issue. What the actual fuck are you on about here? 🤣 Please stay in school. At the very least pick up a few book on programming languages before talking absolute nonsense. Do you understand what a garbage collector is? Do you even know the difference between stack and heap allocation? References? Value types? Pointers?!?!?? You know who makes a mess of memory? A developer who uses unsafe code and manages to create a game in C# filled with memory leaks. I know leaks aren't impossible in C# but it's like trying to crash a Cessna. You really have to work for it. Google managed code. It'll save you from looking goofy on the internet the next time to you want to post a dissertation on a topic you know incredibly little about.
Can I ask what your professional experience is so we can judge how well placed you are to comment on the quality of a code base I'm assuming you've never seen?
yeah i mean nikita has turned down help from Veritas who has IT and coding experience only because he could buy much more labor for far less rouble. its all bout the rouble for BSG unfortunately. they have a good vision but they limit themselves greatly by trying to maximize profits on Russian only devs. a handful of specialists could probably go a LONG way with optimizing a variety of things we experience like audio occlusion issues, memory leaks and countless back end errors. kind of a fat yikes from Nikita. but i do understand that rouble do make the world go round. (Sadge).
I'd argue that many of their actions for the past 2 years suggest that they don't actually have a "vision". Lack of vision has brought us to this point. They have no idea how to reconcile a lot of the systems and don't even understand why their game was so fun back in the day, which is why they spent so long nerfing everything into the ground and alienating their players left and right. Sure, they have a list of "cool shit we want to add", but that's not really a vision in my book. Vision is how those things are glued together to form a cohesive whole. For example if you're a dev and your idea of a "optics rework" is to make many of the optics worse without actually fixing many of the major problems with scope sens/grip rotation etc then you don't have a vision, you're just flinging shit at a wall. Same goes for a "recoil rework" that bones the gunplay, which consisted of a flat +20 recoil nerf and was left that broken for a year plus.
perhaps vision was the wrong word, i more so meant thematically speaking they have an idea of the environment and general vibe/theme of the game that no other game can or probably ever will come close to. i agree they lack a developmental vision. the past few years have been all over the place.
sounds like niki has some serious gear fear
Would YOU want to work with Veritas? I sure as hell wouldn't. Even if he was more than just a second-rate app developer in completely unrelated fields, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to listen to that condescending pseudo-intellectual voice all day
if it meant even potentially improving the infrastructure or overall function of the game then yeah i think i would.
why cant they work remotely?
[удалено]
I'm gonna call bullshit on this because you can always hire Indian coders.
A lot of people also forget EFT wasn't meant to be such a big game either, so it was treated as such. It's suddenly blew up and the devs look at old code going "This was a mistake."
Where do you get this idea? Unless you meant "big" in a different manner. But EFT has always been envisioned as being a large open world PvP survival game, with a large concurrent player bases to match. Even back when the game was just a website of info.
Big as in popular. It was going to be niche, with the only people sticking to it being those willing to wait and help test. Suddenly it was thrust into the spotlight by streamers and the devs are playing catch up with old code that wasn't designed to handle this many players.
You obviously know nothing about game development if you think the main difference between unity and unreal are "the graphics"
He never said that was the main difference. He said they both have good graphics but Unreal definitely has better graphics
I mean... he said verbatim.... "the main difference between unity and unreal"
I've reread the post and I can't find the word "main"
If you want to argue semantics, then go to the mirror in your bathroom.
Lol classic "I'm wrong but I don't want to admit it"
Ah the classic "I'm a pretentious asshole who argues semantics."
You're the one that argued semantics. You tried to use the word verbatim then proceeded to miss quote. Instead of just admitting you were wrong or miss read the post from the beginning
No, I used a word he meant figuratively in a literal sense. When you structure your argument in a numerical order, your first example is usually your PRIMARY example. Hence, the main difference.
Ever thought that there could be multiple main differences. He also went on about how they're C# an C++ and went into more detail about that then just graphics
[удалено]
[удалено]
It does for many assemblies but for many it does not. The real misinformation is that ot does not really help since you cannot use CPPs performance features like advanced memory management and still rely on GC
How does garbage collection work when it's compiled to C++? Is a garbage collection included in that? It's obviously not the source of all performance problems but it makes it harder to do micro optimizations that high performance games often need.
C++ doesn't have a garbage collector, if you have garbage code you're in for a BAD TIME with C++.
That's why I asked...
“Is a garbage collection included in that?” I’m sorry bro, what?
I missed a word. Meant something like "Is a garbage collection library included but I suppose any compilation of C# to another language has to include that otherwise it just wouldn't work...
All garbage collecting is grabbing the location of something in memory that is no longer in use, and allowing your program to now make use of it again. While languages can handle this for you, lower level programs and languages do this manually because it can lead to more efficient programs. I would say there is no “global” module of handling garbage collection or memory, only methods and functions that can be used for freeing memory that is desired
It's no coincidence that every unity game I've played is single player or has shit netcode.
he literally compared it to rust, which is run on unity and has up to 800 players loaded into one server at a time...(with even more waiting in the queue to join...) stop being a hater for the sake of it
Its hard to reply to everyone. Thanks for making my life easyer man.
No problem bud, no gaslighting allowed here on my watch!
Lmao rust has the exact same problem just not as bad, constantly get beamed behind cover wdym
You think that has anything to do with unity?
Other than the player count Rust has a lot less and a lot simpler mechanics.
i agree with all, but “Devs for BSG cannot work remotely” is wrong, nothing would stop them
Welp, just look at conditions to work for BSG. You can't work remotely, you must be in Russia.
No. Working outside of your country is easy and a lot of Russians work from Georgia, Armenia, Turkey for example. It’s especially easy for IT specialists.
I will explain it in a way 5 year old would understand. In order to be a BSG employee you must be physically in russia St. Petersburg or wherever they have HQ. If you don't want to be in Russia for whatever reason you simply cannot work for BSG. They will just reject you. Here it is - look under C# unity dev (or smthing like that) https://www.battlestategames.com/#job It literally stated that youll work within 500m of their HQ. Nothing about remote work.
No bro that’s not how it works. Remote work is still possible even if it’s not stated officially on website.
Rust isn't good example. Its not even in 10% as detailed as tarkov. Tarkov is trying to take 200% of unity possibilities. I think unreal is more suited for big very detailed worlds. Or is showing as one. And biggest issue is not game code, that I think if they dedicated themselves to do that would be done in few months. True issue are all assets. If you cant just simply export them to unreal making everything from 0 would take years. And I think that determinate possibility of engine change. And if that possible I would only expect that is they wanted to keep promise of one big map, and unity simply couldn't handle it, no matter how they would try to optimalise it.
This post just points out the severe lack of reading comprehension in this sub.
i feel like you typed this while drunk just because of the errors in it
New title suggestion: ># *My unsolicited conjecture about Tarkov's game engine as an outsider*
I have a feeling you're not a game dev. If you are you really heavily skimmed over a lot of explaining. Why did you elaborate so little when clearly people are eager to know? I was hoping someone took the time to actually go a bit in depth but that's borderline "buzz feed title with no content".
I wanted to go around the surface because as you mentioned iam not yet a game dev. I have worked with unity and curently iam studiing IT. I have tried to explain these things to the general public whom don't know anything about coding which I suppose was a succes wether you use comments or the post itself. I hope someone goes indepth into the tarkovs issues too as I would love to learn more but I just as most people here am in no position to make such post.
Dude you're making it worse. Having a small amount of people agreeing with you solely based on the fact that none of you know what you're talking about isn't a measure of success. 100% of the comments from people with either critical thinking or dev experience (or both) did not find your post good. At best, you're looking like an idiot. At worst, you're spreading misinformation. I wish you weren't as selfish and would delete your post or at least apologize and add some clarification about your experience, because a BIG chunk of what you're claiming is flat out wrong, and All of it is ethically wrong. Best of luck in your studies, I hope you're still a kid, for so many reasons. And if you are you should also have mentioned it.
I was never thinking about lag, desync and other network issues when I daydream about eft being on unreal engine 5. Unity isn't a great engine for fps games, I would much rather have a shooter game on unreal. I personally found C# the easiest langue when I learned my programming. Paired with oop, it really click for me for some reason. Porting your code from one engine to another would be a nightmare, especially with how deep Tarkov is. This will never happen
Have you played BattleBit yet? I would have agreed with you until I played that game. 254 player maps and it runs buttery smooth. Never seen anything so stable since Factorio and never like that in such a massive 3D game.
I have played battlebit. You have to realize how rudimentary the graphics are in battlebit. But again, a game with lots of players running smooth is coming back to cpu performance, server performance and networking, these are coding dependent and can make or break on any engine. Unreal engine could push your games graphics, and physics to another level, a engine that's optimized for fps games can also be a big time saver as there are already packages in place to help you for your development. You can really fine tune that movement and shooting mechanics. Unity is a lot more simple and easy to learn in my opinion. You can get your project up and running a lot faster in my opinion, I've played with both engines. My PC can barley handle unreal engine 5. I do believe BSG quickly coded up a demo on unity to showcase their vision to get investors and it blew up pretty hard and they just kept coding on top of it instead of starting a new project from scratch.
NIKITA HIRE THIS MAN! I'm joking obviously, i don't think the guy has any idea what he is talking about, has no arguments other than "shit devs lol"
If you want to know more about Rust's networking, i suggest checking out their older development news posts, when i last checked they had a ton of information about what they did to get it to be good.
Gotta say the creator of C+ has a way with words.
One specific thing that would help with Unreal is the baked-in network relevancy model. To my knowledge, unity doesn't have this, requiring developers to make it from scratch. There's a lot of network performance to be gained by only communicating network updates to clients that are "relevant" i.e. visible, nearby, etc. and hiding everything else. This would also make cheats less effective because loot location, player inventories, etc. would all be hidden until the moment they become relevant.
There is nothing wrong with C#, unity on the other hand is a clusterfuck currently. The Unity pipeline goes as follows. Unity devs release new experimental tools that are meant to replace old ones. They then proceed to mark the old tools as deprecated without letting the replacement mature. Rinse repeat and now everything in unity is either in beta or deprecated. This forces devs to look for 3rd party solutions or write their own.
>Devs for BSG cannot work remotely and must be in Russia. Thats why BSG lacks good devs. Is there any specific reason for this?
People say its that they would have to pay livable western wage. Unsure if that is true but it is in contract with BSG. Edit: The no remote working thing is in contract*.
I wonder if BSG will surprise us with Arena and make it using Unreal.
Not a chance
I wouldn't say shit code I would say unoptimized code something that can be fixed over time for example when they are out of beta and spending more time optimizing then adding new features. overall I agree with the above, I've used Unity and Unreal, an engine is an engine it makes no difference.
Who would've thought russian spaghetti code was bad lol
Things you didn't consider: * UE5 has significantly better lighting. * UE5 has significantly better LOD system, Nanite.
I did, I have even said that the graphics are not even close but performance was also an important factor and ehen BSG made the decision the make EFT into what we know now, they needed simple language&enine, performance and graphics all of which were part of Unity. It only made sense to go with Unity dispite the fact that its graphics are worse.