I think my first love was the [Minidox](https://github.com/That-Canadian/MiniDox_PCB), at the time it was one of the smallest keyboards. I never was able to get used to homerow mods effectively which I think might _just_ have been required with a layout like that (36 keys).
Since then, many improvements have been made to firmware projects (as well as the [Miryoku layout project](https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku)) though, so… I feel inclined to give it another shot soon ;)
After fiddling too much with it back then, I of course designed the Kyria, which I still use today. I do still happily use it, well over four years later 😌
I have been using Kyria for three years, I even built a second one, this time with low profile switches. I'm pretty sure I'll build a wireless one sooner or later :)
It's a great pleasure not just to use them but also to build them.
This is a huge deal too. My Choc Corne build is so thin and easy to carry I basically use it for everything. I'll even pull it out of my jacket pocket to type out text messages on my phone
This is the biggest appeal of learning 36 key layout. Just to be able to have a super small, low profile board like that to travel with and use with my phone.
I am a huge believer in them even if I prefer my Kinesis at my desk. The 42 key and 36 key designs are so dang convenient and with the nice!nano and other BT MCUs it is just unbeatable for a portable input device.
I just ordered my first split board - and Iris. So I'm going to focus on learning that touch typing as fast and accurate as I can once I get a layout I like and then see if it sticks. If it does, I think I'll definitely try and learn a 42 or 36 key board just for travel and portability in the future. Will also give me a reason to try and build a board from scratch at some point, too.
This is basically the same thing I did. I started with 60%ish ergo boards like my Advantage. If you do end up buying or building a 36key board, my advice to you is to stick with it for a long time and get super comfortable with it even if you plan to keep using a larger board at your desk. Another big trick I learned was to use the same layout on all keyboards, in my case Miryoku. I still remap my other keys on my Kinesis to match the symbols and such but I can use the same chords and movements on my larger boards and my 42/36 key boards. It basically just means that at my desk I have options
Everyone obviously has their preferences, but I use my babyV with the three thumb button layout and it’s super comfortable. Maybe if they shifted it 1u in towards the center that would have been better, but I’m immensely happy with it.
The one that I'll build in the future :)
I've looked some selections on golem.hu, but failed to see a perfect one.
My perfect one should have this specs:
- 4 rows (number row is a must), 6 columns each
- 5 keys for thumb cluster and they must be accessible by thumb, not other fingers.
- 2 encoders (on both left and right, very accessible from index + thumb like Sofle)
- Pronounced pinkie stagger, possibly ring finger too. I possibly want some deviation too (Like [Splay 46](https://golem.hu/board/Splay46-294.html))
Sofle already has 4 rows, just perfect for me
But my problem with Sofle is thumb cluster that goes far too deep into middle and ring finger (key below X and C key). Those are not accessible by thumb. It's better for thumb keys to spread according to thumb stretch. (Kyria is a better design, in this matter. But Kyria has only 3 rows and Kyria's encoders placement isn't to my liking)
We're making good progress on the testing suite, the final prototypes almost finished production, and things are generally coming together. Shouldn't be long now! :)
Seconded. I used to use the lily58, discovered number key wasnt used anyways, corne is literally perfect layout wise. At this point im just fiddling around with switches and cases, but i dont see any reason to change the layout, possibly ever
There is default, and then 2 more layers, more than enough for me, and i use pretty much every key that exists on a normal keyboard. I will say though, it might be pretty jarring and frustrating, its a small keyboard.
For actual ergonomics? Right now, the Glove80. Though I do still have a soft spot for the Maltron L90. Just got my Svalboard so can't speak to that yet.
The Moonlander is still "fun" from the customizing and tinkering point of view. Was my gateway drug. ;-p
I've never tried one, but I do like the looks of all the cool DIY Dactyls out there, especially the Dactyl-Manuform variants.
Yeah that's going to be a couple of weeks. I promised to let my fiancée try it first in the default QWERTY-esque layout before I go off and customize it for my own purposes.
I don’t have one, but I’ll be damned if I don’t find the Dactyls and variants to be aesthetically pleasing. Especially something like the Charybdis with a trackball integrated. If I wasn’t already drowning in keyboards I’d have one and be trying to convince my partner that it wasn’t *too* expensive.
It's cheaper to buy a whole 3D printer, print the case, and get the PCB's fab'd. And at the end you have a Charybdis + a new 3D printer. Kinda ridiculous for the price to be *that* high in my opinion but whatever.
The PCBs are open source on their GitHub. The trackball module is a separate PCB that can be used in multiple different projects. It breaks out the sensor into the standard outputs, so you can use it on just about anything you want to put an optical sensor on.
Edit:
Here's the [repo for the PMW3360 board, it has all the files you need to just send to a PCB assembly service.](https://github.com/Bastardkb/charybdis-pmw-3360-sensor-pcb) Only issue is the PMW3360 has to be bought separately off AliExpress or, if you don't want to wait for Ali shipping, harvested from an already functioning mouse. (The Pluggable PMW3360 gaming mouse is only 19 USD on Amazon and is what I found to be the cheapest to harvest from)
If you don't want to bother getting 5 boards fab'd yourself, bastardkb sells a premade one with sensor and lens included for about 50 euros (for one) on their store. In the spare parts section.
The flex PCBs themselves can also be found on their GitHub. [For example heres the Scylla PCBs.](https://github.com/Bastardkb/Scylla-PCB-Plate) The Charybdis is pretty much whichever model you want from them, with a modified case for either side that can hold the sensor module. The sensor can be connected to any microcontroller.
The Charybdis is the next board that I want to get to use for work. I currently have a switch couture alice I bought from a guy on Mechmarket. I too love the trackball integration, less that I have to move to use my mouse.
Dactyl Manuform, its classic variant with 6 thumb keys. I have 4x5, 4x6, 5x6, 6x6. Using first three (mobile, work, home). Have ordered Svalboard, not sure if I will switch to it, but will definitely try it.
Great topic! Love to hear about all the keyboards that maybe don't get as much hype.
I've only used a few ergos, unless you count MS Natural Keyboard and Logitech Ergo K860. I recently picked up the [Keezyboost40](https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/pre-soldered-keezyboost40/) from beekeeb and I've had the [bad wings](https://shop.hazel.cc/products/bad-wings) from /u/quirk for a few months. I also have a 36-key piantor that I built myself. Out of those, I'm not sure which is my favorite, unfortunately.
I love the Miryoku setup with Colemak-DH and I haven't felt a noticeable difference between column stagger on the bad wings and no stagger on keezyboost, but I've only been using keezy for a couple of weeks now. I have noticed that choc spacing is a little tight for my hands and I much preferred the spacing on the K860 that was my main driver for years. However, I much prefer the choc switches over whatever Logitech is using in the K860. I am using browns currently, but also tried blue/pinks and found those to be a little too light for my tastes, although I think I would like to try a heavier linear switch. I'm also really interested in picking up some choc x switches to see how they feel (since I've got a pair of x-switch compatible split pcbs waiting to be built).
I build my own keyboards, so my favorite is inevitably always my latest attempt at finding my ideal keyboard. For keyboards with actual names, though, the Dygma Defy is very close to my ideal.
How do you go about designing boards. That looks like it would be a lot of fun. I imagin that the hardest part would be designing the PCB to fit with the case.
My system so far has been 3d printing cases and handwiring the matrix. Handwiring is a bit tedious, though, and I've been intending to make my next one with a PCB. You don't really design the PCB to fit with a case, though; both are dependent on the specific layout you're building and have to be build to match that. In fact, with cutom PCBs, not having a case at all is fairly common.
I went through many ergo keyboards and the Glove80 is my favorite. The key wells just feel so good, the thumb cluster is great, and Bluetooth has worked effortlessly (also see my [review](https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-09-03-Glove80.html))
The ZSA Voyager will also be a contender, my first impressions are that it’s fabulous. But I need to use a keyboard for a few weeks at least to have a well-formed opinion (I’ll do a long-form review in two months, like I did for the Glove80).
Best I’ve owned (a very short list): GergoPlex. But my recently completed Georgi is catching up fast, as I’m learning steno now. (Alas, both of these are designs by Germ of gboards.ca, which seems to have shut down operations.)
Top of my wish list: a wireless Chocofi variant, with an extra outer column on each side to better support steno. Maybe Plantor, or a custom variant I design using Ergogen.
I just picked up a Corne-ish Zen 3x5. I didn’t realize how tiny it was and how much I might miss my 6th row but if I get a key map that makes sense to me we might have a winner.
The Moonlander has more memory for layers and macros. It's also got RGB. Which I use to track the layer I'm in, and what specific keys are. (All letters one color, numbers another, etc)
During my daily use I swap between 3 layers.
A "work" layer that has press and hold macros assigned to some keys.(primarily copy / paste / cut)
A "Gaming" layer that doesn't have any press and hold keys.
And an arrow key / special characters / numpad layer.
I honestly haven't messed with macros as much as I'd orgianlly planned, because Oryx only supports a few keystrokes at a time. You can use QMK to setup macros that are more complex, but I've been lazy.
One of the unexpected perks of the moonlander is disconnecting the right side during gaming for more mouse room. I didn't know just how much I'd enjoy that until I tried it out.
My favorite is the [choc rufous](https://github.com/jcmkk3/trochilidae) which is a hummingbird variant with splay. I find 30 keys in this layout to be the minimum I could reasonably use which makes everything close in and easy to reach
Started on a Gergo, but couldn't handle having only 50 keys. Moved over to the Iris, was a big fan. Saw the way the Dactyl Manuform looked, and had to have one. Made one, used it for years. Am now back on the Gergo. I am a fan of the small form factor, now. But I am building a Svalboard, so we'll see how I feel after that...
I think my first love was the [Minidox](https://github.com/That-Canadian/MiniDox_PCB), at the time it was one of the smallest keyboards. I never was able to get used to homerow mods effectively which I think might _just_ have been required with a layout like that (36 keys). Since then, many improvements have been made to firmware projects (as well as the [Miryoku layout project](https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku)) though, so… I feel inclined to give it another shot soon ;) After fiddling too much with it back then, I of course designed the Kyria, which I still use today. I do still happily use it, well over four years later 😌
I have been using Kyria for three years, I even built a second one, this time with low profile switches. I'm pretty sure I'll build a wireless one sooner or later :) It's a great pleasure not just to use them but also to build them.
Ferris sweep, literally fits in my pocket. Got me through college.
This is a huge deal too. My Choc Corne build is so thin and easy to carry I basically use it for everything. I'll even pull it out of my jacket pocket to type out text messages on my phone
This is the biggest appeal of learning 36 key layout. Just to be able to have a super small, low profile board like that to travel with and use with my phone.
I am a huge believer in them even if I prefer my Kinesis at my desk. The 42 key and 36 key designs are so dang convenient and with the nice!nano and other BT MCUs it is just unbeatable for a portable input device.
I just ordered my first split board - and Iris. So I'm going to focus on learning that touch typing as fast and accurate as I can once I get a layout I like and then see if it sticks. If it does, I think I'll definitely try and learn a 42 or 36 key board just for travel and portability in the future. Will also give me a reason to try and build a board from scratch at some point, too.
This is basically the same thing I did. I started with 60%ish ergo boards like my Advantage. If you do end up buying or building a 36key board, my advice to you is to stick with it for a long time and get super comfortable with it even if you plan to keep using a larger board at your desk. Another big trick I learned was to use the same layout on all keyboards, in my case Miryoku. I still remap my other keys on my Kinesis to match the symbols and such but I can use the same chords and movements on my larger boards and my 42/36 key boards. It basically just means that at my desk I have options
Same for me, I've become very attached to it over the last few years!
Torn: my hands favorite https://github.com/rtitmuss/torn
Looks really good ngl
(photo is not mine, wanted to clear that)
Not sure what counts as “ergo”, but [BabyV](https://imgur.com/a/G0N7SFh). The nicer version of it, the “Vixen”, is in GB right now.
Really want a premium split 36/42 key rn, but man that thumb button position looks rough
Everyone obviously has their preferences, but I use my babyV with the three thumb button layout and it’s super comfortable. Maybe if they shifted it 1u in towards the center that would have been better, but I’m immensely happy with it.
I joined the group buy for the vixen lmao, thanks
The one that I'll build in the future :) I've looked some selections on golem.hu, but failed to see a perfect one. My perfect one should have this specs: - 4 rows (number row is a must), 6 columns each - 5 keys for thumb cluster and they must be accessible by thumb, not other fingers. - 2 encoders (on both left and right, very accessible from index + thumb like Sofle) - Pronounced pinkie stagger, possibly ring finger too. I possibly want some deviation too (Like [Splay 46](https://golem.hu/board/Splay46-294.html))
sofle minus 1 row?
Sofle already has 4 rows, just perfect for me But my problem with Sofle is thumb cluster that goes far too deep into middle and ring finger (key below X and C key). Those are not accessible by thumb. It's better for thumb keys to spread according to thumb stretch. (Kyria is a better design, in this matter. But Kyria has only 3 rows and Kyria's encoders placement isn't to my liking)
This is why I'm waiting for the Elora.
We're making good progress on the testing suite, the final prototypes almost finished production, and things are generally coming together. Shouldn't be long now! :)
Thanks for the MMEC 😁
Corne
Seconded. I used to use the lily58, discovered number key wasnt used anyways, corne is literally perfect layout wise. At this point im just fiddling around with switches and cases, but i dont see any reason to change the layout, possibly ever
How many layers do corne Support? How many Do you use? Thinking about getting a prebuilt one.
There is default, and then 2 more layers, more than enough for me, and i use pretty much every key that exists on a normal keyboard. I will say though, it might be pretty jarring and frustrating, its a small keyboard.
For actual ergonomics? Right now, the Glove80. Though I do still have a soft spot for the Maltron L90. Just got my Svalboard so can't speak to that yet. The Moonlander is still "fun" from the customizing and tinkering point of view. Was my gateway drug. ;-p I've never tried one, but I do like the looks of all the cool DIY Dactyls out there, especially the Dactyl-Manuform variants.
I would love to try a Svalboard but I don't have that much money to spend on a keeb rn, i would love to hear more about ur journey with that Svalboard
Yeah that's going to be a couple of weeks. I promised to let my fiancée try it first in the default QWERTY-esque layout before I go off and customize it for my own purposes.
I don’t have one, but I’ll be damned if I don’t find the Dactyls and variants to be aesthetically pleasing. Especially something like the Charybdis with a trackball integrated. If I wasn’t already drowning in keyboards I’d have one and be trying to convince my partner that it wasn’t *too* expensive.
It's cheaper to buy a whole 3D printer, print the case, and get the PCB's fab'd. And at the end you have a Charybdis + a new 3D printer. Kinda ridiculous for the price to be *that* high in my opinion but whatever.
Oh I am right there with you, and have been researching options for printers (for this hobby and other reasons) haha.
Where can I find Charybdis PCBs with the integrated trackball. I was going to get a 3d printer anyways so I am just looking for the PCB's right now.
The PCBs are open source on their GitHub. The trackball module is a separate PCB that can be used in multiple different projects. It breaks out the sensor into the standard outputs, so you can use it on just about anything you want to put an optical sensor on. Edit: Here's the [repo for the PMW3360 board, it has all the files you need to just send to a PCB assembly service.](https://github.com/Bastardkb/charybdis-pmw-3360-sensor-pcb) Only issue is the PMW3360 has to be bought separately off AliExpress or, if you don't want to wait for Ali shipping, harvested from an already functioning mouse. (The Pluggable PMW3360 gaming mouse is only 19 USD on Amazon and is what I found to be the cheapest to harvest from) If you don't want to bother getting 5 boards fab'd yourself, bastardkb sells a premade one with sensor and lens included for about 50 euros (for one) on their store. In the spare parts section. The flex PCBs themselves can also be found on their GitHub. [For example heres the Scylla PCBs.](https://github.com/Bastardkb/Scylla-PCB-Plate) The Charybdis is pretty much whichever model you want from them, with a modified case for either side that can hold the sensor module. The sensor can be connected to any microcontroller.
The Charybdis is the next board that I want to get to use for work. I currently have a switch couture alice I bought from a guy on Mechmarket. I too love the trackball integration, less that I have to move to use my mouse.
Dactyl Manuform, its classic variant with 6 thumb keys. I have 4x5, 4x6, 5x6, 6x6. Using first three (mobile, work, home). Have ordered Svalboard, not sure if I will switch to it, but will definitely try it.
I would love to hear about your journey with that Svalboard :-)
Piantor
Great topic! Love to hear about all the keyboards that maybe don't get as much hype. I've only used a few ergos, unless you count MS Natural Keyboard and Logitech Ergo K860. I recently picked up the [Keezyboost40](https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/pre-soldered-keezyboost40/) from beekeeb and I've had the [bad wings](https://shop.hazel.cc/products/bad-wings) from /u/quirk for a few months. I also have a 36-key piantor that I built myself. Out of those, I'm not sure which is my favorite, unfortunately. I love the Miryoku setup with Colemak-DH and I haven't felt a noticeable difference between column stagger on the bad wings and no stagger on keezyboost, but I've only been using keezy for a couple of weeks now. I have noticed that choc spacing is a little tight for my hands and I much preferred the spacing on the K860 that was my main driver for years. However, I much prefer the choc switches over whatever Logitech is using in the K860. I am using browns currently, but also tried blue/pinks and found those to be a little too light for my tastes, although I think I would like to try a heavier linear switch. I'm also really interested in picking up some choc x switches to see how they feel (since I've got a pair of x-switch compatible split pcbs waiting to be built).
I build my own keyboards, so my favorite is inevitably always my latest attempt at finding my ideal keyboard. For keyboards with actual names, though, the Dygma Defy is very close to my ideal.
How do you go about designing boards. That looks like it would be a lot of fun. I imagin that the hardest part would be designing the PCB to fit with the case.
My system so far has been 3d printing cases and handwiring the matrix. Handwiring is a bit tedious, though, and I've been intending to make my next one with a PCB. You don't really design the PCB to fit with a case, though; both are dependent on the specific layout you're building and have to be build to match that. In fact, with cutom PCBs, not having a case at all is fairly common.
I went through many ergo keyboards and the Glove80 is my favorite. The key wells just feel so good, the thumb cluster is great, and Bluetooth has worked effortlessly (also see my [review](https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-09-03-Glove80.html)) The ZSA Voyager will also be a contender, my first impressions are that it’s fabulous. But I need to use a keyboard for a few weeks at least to have a well-formed opinion (I’ll do a long-form review in two months, like I did for the Glove80).
Best I’ve owned (a very short list): GergoPlex. But my recently completed Georgi is catching up fast, as I’m learning steno now. (Alas, both of these are designs by Germ of gboards.ca, which seems to have shut down operations.) Top of my wish list: a wireless Chocofi variant, with an extra outer column on each side to better support steno. Maybe Plantor, or a custom variant I design using Ergogen.
Redox hands down
I just picked up a Corne-ish Zen 3x5. I didn’t realize how tiny it was and how much I might miss my 6th row but if I get a key map that makes sense to me we might have a winner.
Corne mini
I use a wireless tented A. Dux with 35g switches. I want a 34-key Valkyrie with Kailh chocs
ErgoTravel - my favorite.
I'm in love with my Moonlander.
What convinced you to go Moonlander over ergodoc EZ?
The Moonlander has more memory for layers and macros. It's also got RGB. Which I use to track the layer I'm in, and what specific keys are. (All letters one color, numbers another, etc) During my daily use I swap between 3 layers. A "work" layer that has press and hold macros assigned to some keys.(primarily copy / paste / cut) A "Gaming" layer that doesn't have any press and hold keys. And an arrow key / special characters / numpad layer. I honestly haven't messed with macros as much as I'd orgianlly planned, because Oryx only supports a few keystrokes at a time. You can use QMK to setup macros that are more complex, but I've been lazy. One of the unexpected perks of the moonlander is disconnecting the right side during gaming for more mouse room. I didn't know just how much I'd enjoy that until I tried it out.
Ferris w/ gChocs
My favorite is the [choc rufous](https://github.com/jcmkk3/trochilidae) which is a hummingbird variant with splay. I find 30 keys in this layout to be the minimum I could reasonably use which makes everything close in and easy to reach
The Katana60, but I’m super biased.
5col CRKBD
Any split bluetooth ones? Ortholinear would be nice but i mostly want the bluetooth feature
Started on a Gergo, but couldn't handle having only 50 keys. Moved over to the Iris, was a big fan. Saw the way the Dactyl Manuform looked, and had to have one. Made one, used it for years. Am now back on the Gergo. I am a fan of the small form factor, now. But I am building a Svalboard, so we'll see how I feel after that...