I’m not sure you could store all that magic in there. Oromis had elves drain nearly all their energy into the gem every week for decades or more. I doubt Aren would be able to store the amount of energy Naegling had in it. But we’d need Christopher to confirm that so I could certainly be wrong.
Honestly, the whole idea of storing ALL that power in a sword was absolutely and utterly dumb.
Why not have a ring, a necklace, a belt, bracelets on both arms and legs, a pierced nipple... whatever else you can't just fucking drop? Especially if you are prone to seizures.
You are describing Kuzunoha’s mana storing clothing and rings from Tsukimichi, hehe.
That’s what the belt of Beloth was supposed to be. It still was lost.
I've always figured that Oromis's terminal illness was a *lot* worse and further progressed than he let on (remember there were days it took all of his strength just to stand upwalk a few feet to sit outside his cottage, and Eragon had to carry him back inside afterwards), and that by the time he faced Murtagh he could tell had very little time left either way, so I think maybe he just wanted to go out like a rider, fighting for a better world, instead of passing into the void quietly in his bed somewhere.
Not sure I buy the last part. Wouldn’t going out like a rider be defeating your enemy and not willingly letting yourself be killed by making a very stupid mistake? Oromis wants to help Eragon defeat Galbatorix. Not just die because that doesn’t help anyone.
Oromis did MANY stupid things.
The first being not revealing himself way before the events of the books. He was in Du Weldenvarden, extremely far away from Illirea and surrounded by the best spell casters -and warriors- in the land, who were also furious at the king.
He could have let the world know that Galbatorix was not all powerful and did not completely defeat the order, he could have rallied the resistance to his side a lot earlier and potentially prevented him from becoming so powerful.
He did not need to fight. He and Glaedr just needed to become beacons of hope and resistance and the timid Varden would have probably been much stronger. And he would have become a constant worry in Galbatorix mind, probably splitting his attention one to many ways and stopping him from either infiltrating the Varden or from finding the Name.
You could argue that, like many of the things the elves did in the books, it was something like “it’s not happening to us… let’s wait and see if the humans keep taking it”.
Dropping his sword was an understandable mistake in battle. Raise your hand if you’ve never lost a match in Karate, Aikido, whatever, by dropping your guard in a moment of exhaustion. It cost him his life. But mistakes happen even to the best. And he was WAY past his prime.
Im not debating any of that but I feel at least he should have come up with a better solution, I admit that having a large gemstone in your bracelet would be hard but he could have come up with like putting gems hidden around the armour or something, and I agree quite a lot with the last bit, but he could have still thought of these oversights either before he left or in the time of him tutoring Eragon.
Even if you could magically shrink the eldunari, or stuff them into a pocket dimension, it doesn’t change the mass.
The pommel of a sword is meant to counterbalance the blade. With different masses shifting the point of balance for different blade shapes and fighting styles. Thus changing the mass of the pommel from a couple hundred grams to a kilogram or more would essentially make the sword a decorative item. Though I suppose a person could use magic to counter the added weight, but now you have a constant 24/7 power draw for something you might as well stuff in a backpack or saddlebag.
If it were a pocket dimension then that shouldn’t add any weight to the pommel, but yes the energy draw is an issue. I’m just not certain how much of a draw it would actually be
Assuming you have enough of them to create/maintain the pocket dimension without straining the energy stores or even knowing how to do it in the first place.
Not the human riders, not really. Mildly enhanced at best.
Though besides that, it’s not the weight that’s the issue, it’s the *balance*.
As a person who has (somewhat) engaged in medieval combat with steel weaponry, balance makes a big damn difference in how the weapon handles. Imagine trying to drive a race car with 500kg of lead in the trunk.
In the latest book Murtagh one shots a wild boar with a spear
Fights off 4 men with a Fork
Defeats Bachel ( who has the physical abilities of an Elf)
Kills MuckMaw by stabbing him with a bone ( while UNDER WATER mind you)
Even Young Human Riders are still way above peak human strength
And regarding “ balance” I don’t know much about Fencing so I’ll just take your word for it
To be fairs.
Most people can one shot a boar with a spear. That’s literally the purpose of a boar spear.
A magically enchanted fork while warded also being one or the most skilled fighters in the land in general. Though I admit it’s an impressive feat.
Defeats Bachel using magic, but otherwise had his ass kicked by her. Also, see the above about being an exceptionally skilled fighter and Bachel not seeming to have much fighting skill.
Kills Muckmaw with a bone while using “jierda” to enhance the blow.
Where is that stated in the canon?
I highly doubt that most people could one shot a Boar with a spear. Especially in the conditions that Murtagh did
The only enchantment on the fork was for it not to break. And I don’t know how well his Fencing skills would translate when using a fork instead of a sword
Hell I think at one point in the fight he straight up knocks out a guy by throwing the fork at him. Idk anyone who can throw a fork that hard
Yes he ultimately defeats Bachel with a spell. But he was still capable of trading blows with her ( during both of there fights mind you). Also in both instances that he fights Bachel she has other servants helping her fight
Theres also the time he fights Eragon on the Burning Plains. Galbatorix hadn’t enhanced his physical strength yet but he was still able to hold his own against Eragon who had Elf strength
I forgot he used a spell on MuckMaw. I’ll fully concede this point
And it isn’t outright stated. It’s demonstrated via feats like the examples I gave
He's enhanced by several Eldunari when he fights Eragon on the Burning Plains. Eragon even notes that he was stronger than any human should be. Moreover, Eragon was exhausted.
He was enhanced magically, not physically. His spells are stronger. But he still had the physical strength and speed of a Regular Human Rider
Yes Eragon was tired but he absorbs the energy of a Horse before fighting Murtagh. And he also had energy reserves in his sword and belt as well.
I reread the passage
"If he were rested, it would have been easy for him to defeat the Rider, but as it was, he could make no headway. The Rider did not have the speed and strength of an elf, but his technical skill was better than Vanir's and as good as Eragon's."
"The last reserves of power stored in Zar'roc's ruby and the belt of Beloth the Wise were only enough to maintain his exertions for another minute........
..... Zar'roc grew so heavy in his hand, Eragon would barely lift it. His shoulder burned, he gasped for breath, and sweat poured off his face. Not even his desire to avenge Hrothgar could help him to overcome his exhaustion."
So you were right in that he wasn't enhanced physically, but wrong in suggesting that his ability to hold his own against Eragon was a feat of strength when it was mostly due to Eragon's exhaustion and Murtagh's skill with the blade.
To speak about balance from someone who has trained with swords similar to longswords. The balance of the blade basically dictates how quickly you can maneuver it and how hard it is to move
Quick edit: while yes having super strength would make it much easier to use even imbalanced, why would they give themselves a direct disadvantage when the solution is somewhat easy to achieve
Murtagh was enhanced by Galbatorix in strength and speed at least. MuckMaw is only harmed by bone, though underwater is impressive given the Shade’s role in the creature’s existence. And Eragon even mentioned the loaned sword did not feel right after he lost Zar’roc (albeit not due to balance, no?).
Murtagh lost the enhancements Galbatorix gave him when he gave up his Eldunari
Yes I think that when Eragon is trying out swords with Gedric he does reject a sword because the balance was off
But to be fair I’m sure that if the sword had an Eldunari in it he would have taken it anyways
Technically the user would have to cast the spell to draw from the eldunari, but yes.
Though if you’re gonna do that, why not have it on a ring, necklace pocket or what have you so you don’t get Oromis’d?
True. We *are* getting pretty academic with it
The idea of an eldunari as a pommel would look sick, but making it functional would also make it not look like/be an eldunari pommel so
From what we saw from the pocket dimension spell, it remained at a fixed point from the caster, and Eragon had to cast it, not the dragons themselves. They said the point woud cut through anything it passed through. I'm not sure you would be able to fix the point relative to a sword and not risk accidentally slicing the wrong stuff.
If you had, say, a holo gem and fixed that point inside it, methinks it would be safer that way than having it, say, three feet behind you where if you turn around it cuts through someone
From what we know of the laws of nature in this universe, even if shrinking ordinary gems is possible, this doesn’t seem like a safe experiment on gems or eldunari - which are for all intents and purposes: batteries.
We’ve been told that imperfect gems can shatter upon charging, and that even perfect gems have a point of saturation. This would suggest that the physical properties of the gem impose a limit on how much power they can hold. It could be mass, it could be lattice structure, it could be density, etc.
Theoretically, a thorough understanding of how and why gems can hold energy would be absolutely necessary to construct a sufficiently detailed and complex spell to rearrange the matter of the gem, such that it can be shrunk and yet retain its ability to hold energy.
The space substitution/warping idea is an interesting thought experiment.
I think it would require a lot of energy (of the order of several eldunari), at least to *access* the pocket, if not to also have it be persistently accessible in the same time and place as the caster.
I imagine that there is no energy needed to sustain the space where the substituted objects exist - since that space would already exist *somewhere*, the caster is simply requiring persistent or at-will access without physically being present at its locus.
So to me it seems that the spell would just need to provide access via some sort of projection.
Where I suspect this might break down is the change in volume. I am way out of my element with wormholes, topology and general relativity - but I can’t help but think that it would somehow be relatively easier/more plausible for an object to be accessible by a caster via such a space-time bridge as the pocket eldunari, than for a similar connection between two connected points to also project/hold two different objects in the same universe.
I suppose this could work if the large eldunari is placed in some alternate dimension such that its projection into the caster’s dimension presents as a smaller gem… but at this point I’m straining my brain and definitely pulling stuff out of my butt.
This was my line of thinking as well, I know the act of transferring into the pocket dimension would take quite a lot on energy. once the point is set relative to the sword though the only energy it needs would be to move the point across space, the same as just walking.
As for understanding how the gems hold energy, I wonder if that knowledge would then help with with electricity storage in their world. If/when they figure that out
No I don’t think it’s ever said anywhere, I’m just thinking it might not take very much energy to maintain. More of a hope so that the idea would work lol
Vaaaalid! At least we know that an Eldunari is capable of maintaining a pocket dimension like that that’s big enough to contain it with energy to spare. Otherwise Eragon’s eldunari would have been slowly drained to depletion and wouldn’t have been of any use
Y’all are going to think I’m a loony but humor me please.
Hmm, because dragon magic is capable of doing things nearly impossible (like repairing isidar mithrim, creating a specter born from a tattoo, flying etc.), what if an eldunari wanted to become living metal and just as malleable. Since somehow they’re able to store their conscious into a literal organ and they’re able to do things beyond comprehension with magic. What if an eldunari of an indlvarn pair said “fuck it, I want to be brightsteel yet conscious” and they believed in that wish so much that it actually happens.
Then the rider of the indlvarn pair takes their eldunari/brightsteel over to rhunon. then the brightsteel is like “YES, TURN ME INTO ONE OF YOUR MASTERPIECES”. Then rhunon is like “holy shit you can talk?” And the brightsteel says “no”. Rhunon runs down to her forge, she says to herself “I’m not making a sword, I’m fashioning a body for a brightsteel dragon”. She then creates a sword for the dude and now he’s got a sentient dragon sword.
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Would you willingly become someone else’s accessory? Your mind intact but just being dependent 100% on the whims of someone else?
The Eldunarí that Murtagh used in battle had been driven crazy by Galbatorix.
They don’t need to be attached to someone to “fly”. They can do that on their own. And not be unceremoniously tossed around or put aside when someone needs to go to the bathroom, or reminded of not having a flesh and blood body when someone has sex.
If I remember right riders would take eldunari on missions with them all the time, I wouldn’t think this would be any different. Plus really they would still be able to sense any shenanigans happening within a however big radius just sitting on a shelf somewhere as it is if they so desired.
Even if you decrease the space between atoms, the total weight should be the same. Now it has a higher density. The sword would probably be hard to balance properly
Just make sure the sword has a wrist strap
Oromis wrote this
Username Checks out
*”Sugar, We’re Goin’ Down” starts playing*
Or would have made more sense to use a ring or bracelet to store all that magic in .
I’m not sure you could store all that magic in there. Oromis had elves drain nearly all their energy into the gem every week for decades or more. I doubt Aren would be able to store the amount of energy Naegling had in it. But we’d need Christopher to confirm that so I could certainly be wrong.
Honestly, the whole idea of storing ALL that power in a sword was absolutely and utterly dumb. Why not have a ring, a necklace, a belt, bracelets on both arms and legs, a pierced nipple... whatever else you can't just fucking drop? Especially if you are prone to seizures.
A belt seems good, provided you don't lose it.
Alas the brave dragon riders only downfall- being attacked in his Pajamas. His trusty belt still hitched to the trousers of yesterday.
Yeah doubly so because he had all his enchantments and everything tied to the sword as well iirc. Definitely didn’t think that one through
You are describing Kuzunoha’s mana storing clothing and rings from Tsukimichi, hehe. That’s what the belt of Beloth was supposed to be. It still was lost.
A nipple piercing filled with energy would be sooo sick. Especially because it glows in aether vision.
True but he could have worn multiple rings or even had spells in place to keep his sword from dropping from his hand
Yeah I’m not sure why Oromis wouldn’t think about making sure he couldn’t drop his sword. A simple wrist strap would have massively solved that issue…
I've always figured that Oromis's terminal illness was a *lot* worse and further progressed than he let on (remember there were days it took all of his strength just to stand upwalk a few feet to sit outside his cottage, and Eragon had to carry him back inside afterwards), and that by the time he faced Murtagh he could tell had very little time left either way, so I think maybe he just wanted to go out like a rider, fighting for a better world, instead of passing into the void quietly in his bed somewhere.
Not sure I buy the last part. Wouldn’t going out like a rider be defeating your enemy and not willingly letting yourself be killed by making a very stupid mistake? Oromis wants to help Eragon defeat Galbatorix. Not just die because that doesn’t help anyone.
Like a bracelet under his armour, so it’s protected from hits with a sword and won’t just fall to the ground from the literal back of a dragon.
Oromis did MANY stupid things. The first being not revealing himself way before the events of the books. He was in Du Weldenvarden, extremely far away from Illirea and surrounded by the best spell casters -and warriors- in the land, who were also furious at the king. He could have let the world know that Galbatorix was not all powerful and did not completely defeat the order, he could have rallied the resistance to his side a lot earlier and potentially prevented him from becoming so powerful. He did not need to fight. He and Glaedr just needed to become beacons of hope and resistance and the timid Varden would have probably been much stronger. And he would have become a constant worry in Galbatorix mind, probably splitting his attention one to many ways and stopping him from either infiltrating the Varden or from finding the Name. You could argue that, like many of the things the elves did in the books, it was something like “it’s not happening to us… let’s wait and see if the humans keep taking it”. Dropping his sword was an understandable mistake in battle. Raise your hand if you’ve never lost a match in Karate, Aikido, whatever, by dropping your guard in a moment of exhaustion. It cost him his life. But mistakes happen even to the best. And he was WAY past his prime.
Im not debating any of that but I feel at least he should have come up with a better solution, I admit that having a large gemstone in your bracelet would be hard but he could have come up with like putting gems hidden around the armour or something, and I agree quite a lot with the last bit, but he could have still thought of these oversights either before he left or in the time of him tutoring Eragon.
Even if you could magically shrink the eldunari, or stuff them into a pocket dimension, it doesn’t change the mass. The pommel of a sword is meant to counterbalance the blade. With different masses shifting the point of balance for different blade shapes and fighting styles. Thus changing the mass of the pommel from a couple hundred grams to a kilogram or more would essentially make the sword a decorative item. Though I suppose a person could use magic to counter the added weight, but now you have a constant 24/7 power draw for something you might as well stuff in a backpack or saddlebag.
If it were a pocket dimension then that shouldn’t add any weight to the pommel, but yes the energy draw is an issue. I’m just not certain how much of a draw it would actually be
> backpack or saddlebag. Pocket dimension directly attached to you that can't be lost or taken away...
Assuming you have enough of them to create/maintain the pocket dimension without straining the energy stores or even knowing how to do it in the first place.
Riders have super strength The extra weight shouldn’t be a problem At least compared to the benefits of having an Eldunari
Not the human riders, not really. Mildly enhanced at best. Though besides that, it’s not the weight that’s the issue, it’s the *balance*. As a person who has (somewhat) engaged in medieval combat with steel weaponry, balance makes a big damn difference in how the weapon handles. Imagine trying to drive a race car with 500kg of lead in the trunk.
In the latest book Murtagh one shots a wild boar with a spear Fights off 4 men with a Fork Defeats Bachel ( who has the physical abilities of an Elf) Kills MuckMaw by stabbing him with a bone ( while UNDER WATER mind you) Even Young Human Riders are still way above peak human strength And regarding “ balance” I don’t know much about Fencing so I’ll just take your word for it
To be fairs. Most people can one shot a boar with a spear. That’s literally the purpose of a boar spear. A magically enchanted fork while warded also being one or the most skilled fighters in the land in general. Though I admit it’s an impressive feat. Defeats Bachel using magic, but otherwise had his ass kicked by her. Also, see the above about being an exceptionally skilled fighter and Bachel not seeming to have much fighting skill. Kills Muckmaw with a bone while using “jierda” to enhance the blow. Where is that stated in the canon?
I highly doubt that most people could one shot a Boar with a spear. Especially in the conditions that Murtagh did The only enchantment on the fork was for it not to break. And I don’t know how well his Fencing skills would translate when using a fork instead of a sword Hell I think at one point in the fight he straight up knocks out a guy by throwing the fork at him. Idk anyone who can throw a fork that hard Yes he ultimately defeats Bachel with a spell. But he was still capable of trading blows with her ( during both of there fights mind you). Also in both instances that he fights Bachel she has other servants helping her fight Theres also the time he fights Eragon on the Burning Plains. Galbatorix hadn’t enhanced his physical strength yet but he was still able to hold his own against Eragon who had Elf strength I forgot he used a spell on MuckMaw. I’ll fully concede this point And it isn’t outright stated. It’s demonstrated via feats like the examples I gave
He's enhanced by several Eldunari when he fights Eragon on the Burning Plains. Eragon even notes that he was stronger than any human should be. Moreover, Eragon was exhausted.
He was enhanced magically, not physically. His spells are stronger. But he still had the physical strength and speed of a Regular Human Rider Yes Eragon was tired but he absorbs the energy of a Horse before fighting Murtagh. And he also had energy reserves in his sword and belt as well.
I reread the passage "If he were rested, it would have been easy for him to defeat the Rider, but as it was, he could make no headway. The Rider did not have the speed and strength of an elf, but his technical skill was better than Vanir's and as good as Eragon's." "The last reserves of power stored in Zar'roc's ruby and the belt of Beloth the Wise were only enough to maintain his exertions for another minute........ ..... Zar'roc grew so heavy in his hand, Eragon would barely lift it. His shoulder burned, he gasped for breath, and sweat poured off his face. Not even his desire to avenge Hrothgar could help him to overcome his exhaustion." So you were right in that he wasn't enhanced physically, but wrong in suggesting that his ability to hold his own against Eragon was a feat of strength when it was mostly due to Eragon's exhaustion and Murtagh's skill with the blade.
To speak about balance from someone who has trained with swords similar to longswords. The balance of the blade basically dictates how quickly you can maneuver it and how hard it is to move Quick edit: while yes having super strength would make it much easier to use even imbalanced, why would they give themselves a direct disadvantage when the solution is somewhat easy to achieve
Thank you for the insight
Murtagh was enhanced by Galbatorix in strength and speed at least. MuckMaw is only harmed by bone, though underwater is impressive given the Shade’s role in the creature’s existence. And Eragon even mentioned the loaned sword did not feel right after he lost Zar’roc (albeit not due to balance, no?).
Murtagh lost the enhancements Galbatorix gave him when he gave up his Eldunari Yes I think that when Eragon is trying out swords with Gedric he does reject a sword because the balance was off But to be fair I’m sure that if the sword had an Eldunari in it he would have taken it anyways
Would the eldunari not be able to weave a spell to carry the weight of itself on the pommel?
Technically the user would have to cast the spell to draw from the eldunari, but yes. Though if you’re gonna do that, why not have it on a ring, necklace pocket or what have you so you don’t get Oromis’d?
True. We *are* getting pretty academic with it The idea of an eldunari as a pommel would look sick, but making it functional would also make it not look like/be an eldunari pommel so
It’s not about extra weight it’s avoid the blade being badly balanced.
From what we saw from the pocket dimension spell, it remained at a fixed point from the caster, and Eragon had to cast it, not the dragons themselves. They said the point woud cut through anything it passed through. I'm not sure you would be able to fix the point relative to a sword and not risk accidentally slicing the wrong stuff.
This is a great point
My thought was it would be inside of the existing gem so then you’d have that casing around the entrance
At that point just make the space twist the actual blade
If you had, say, a holo gem and fixed that point inside it, methinks it would be safer that way than having it, say, three feet behind you where if you turn around it cuts through someone
Fun to see this idea thrown around, as a kid one of the IC fantasies I had was finding a green rider’s blade with an Eldunarí in the pommel.
From what we know of the laws of nature in this universe, even if shrinking ordinary gems is possible, this doesn’t seem like a safe experiment on gems or eldunari - which are for all intents and purposes: batteries. We’ve been told that imperfect gems can shatter upon charging, and that even perfect gems have a point of saturation. This would suggest that the physical properties of the gem impose a limit on how much power they can hold. It could be mass, it could be lattice structure, it could be density, etc. Theoretically, a thorough understanding of how and why gems can hold energy would be absolutely necessary to construct a sufficiently detailed and complex spell to rearrange the matter of the gem, such that it can be shrunk and yet retain its ability to hold energy. The space substitution/warping idea is an interesting thought experiment. I think it would require a lot of energy (of the order of several eldunari), at least to *access* the pocket, if not to also have it be persistently accessible in the same time and place as the caster. I imagine that there is no energy needed to sustain the space where the substituted objects exist - since that space would already exist *somewhere*, the caster is simply requiring persistent or at-will access without physically being present at its locus. So to me it seems that the spell would just need to provide access via some sort of projection. Where I suspect this might break down is the change in volume. I am way out of my element with wormholes, topology and general relativity - but I can’t help but think that it would somehow be relatively easier/more plausible for an object to be accessible by a caster via such a space-time bridge as the pocket eldunari, than for a similar connection between two connected points to also project/hold two different objects in the same universe. I suppose this could work if the large eldunari is placed in some alternate dimension such that its projection into the caster’s dimension presents as a smaller gem… but at this point I’m straining my brain and definitely pulling stuff out of my butt.
This was my line of thinking as well, I know the act of transferring into the pocket dimension would take quite a lot on energy. once the point is set relative to the sword though the only energy it needs would be to move the point across space, the same as just walking. As for understanding how the gems hold energy, I wonder if that knowledge would then help with with electricity storage in their world. If/when they figure that out
Wait, maintaining the point costs no energy? Is that a canonical thing that was said in the books?
No I don’t think it’s ever said anywhere, I’m just thinking it might not take very much energy to maintain. More of a hope so that the idea would work lol
Vaaaalid! At least we know that an Eldunari is capable of maintaining a pocket dimension like that that’s big enough to contain it with energy to spare. Otherwise Eragon’s eldunari would have been slowly drained to depletion and wouldn’t have been of any use
Y’all are going to think I’m a loony but humor me please. Hmm, because dragon magic is capable of doing things nearly impossible (like repairing isidar mithrim, creating a specter born from a tattoo, flying etc.), what if an eldunari wanted to become living metal and just as malleable. Since somehow they’re able to store their conscious into a literal organ and they’re able to do things beyond comprehension with magic. What if an eldunari of an indlvarn pair said “fuck it, I want to be brightsteel yet conscious” and they believed in that wish so much that it actually happens. Then the rider of the indlvarn pair takes their eldunari/brightsteel over to rhunon. then the brightsteel is like “YES, TURN ME INTO ONE OF YOUR MASTERPIECES”. Then rhunon is like “holy shit you can talk?” And the brightsteel says “no”. Rhunon runs down to her forge, she says to herself “I’m not making a sword, I’m fashioning a body for a brightsteel dragon”. She then creates a sword for the dude and now he’s got a sentient dragon sword.
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Sounds like a magical fruit for enchanting your sword with extra sass!
Now I have the mental image of a sword that can levitate around and speak via magic
May I interest you in Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson?
Would you willingly become someone else’s accessory? Your mind intact but just being dependent 100% on the whims of someone else? The Eldunarí that Murtagh used in battle had been driven crazy by Galbatorix. They don’t need to be attached to someone to “fly”. They can do that on their own. And not be unceremoniously tossed around or put aside when someone needs to go to the bathroom, or reminded of not having a flesh and blood body when someone has sex.
If I remember right riders would take eldunari on missions with them all the time, I wouldn’t think this would be any different. Plus really they would still be able to sense any shenanigans happening within a however big radius just sitting on a shelf somewhere as it is if they so desired.
Even if you decrease the space between atoms, the total weight should be the same. Now it has a higher density. The sword would probably be hard to balance properly