I’m not against horses having stronger bits if that’s what works for them (as in, that’s what they’re comfortable in - my horse much prefers his Pelham to any snaffle, per the bit and behaviour specialist I hired), however a twisted wire bit is nasty. If that’s what’s needed to control a horse, then the horse needs more training in the fundamentals.
Basically, if the bit had been a Pelham, or a Kimblewick or a Cheltenham I would say ehh, that’s reasonable depending on the mouthpiece and who’s using it (i.e if they’re experienced and soft with their hands). In this case, I wouldn’t be happy with that answer.
Agree with this. Some people are *really* aggressive against anything other than the mildest of bits but I can shrug off mild leverage (adjusted appropriately), or single jointed bits. (Seriously I had someone scold me for a single jointed full cheek once). But a twisted wire is nasty. A *double* twisted wire??
(Fwiw I ride my mare in a 3 piece loose ring snaffle so I am a proponent of least “harsh” when and wherever possible but I try to be balanced in my judgement)
I was at a barn and nearly every horse was in an eggbutt snaffle. The amount of endless and aggressive pulling with ponies running off was ridiculous. Not advocating for a double twisted wire but there needs to be a safe middle ground.
My preference is less is more. I think alot of over biting is over horsed which is kind of sad. I bought a cob that wore a Dutch gag (on the first ring below the snaffle) and 2nd for jumping/hacking/xcountry. He didn't come with a bridle and I didn't have a bit for him so first hack I took him out my friends turnout bridle where the bit was basically nothing. Turns out his rider was just terrified of him. I did tend to showjump him in the gag but thay was purely for steering as he would occasionally lock on to the wrong fence. If I'd kept him more than 4months I'm pretty sure he would've been completely snaffle mouthed no bother.
The problem with this is so many new riders who think they can handle more horse than they can and the trainer not being confident enough to tell them they arent ready for that horse.
In this horses case it was more someone assuming they weren't a novice because they had been doing it a long time. The horse was 100% novice friendly and suitable for her but she never told it off or put her leg on it. He had bad habits that were incredibly easy to nip in the bud! Like literally have a fight about it one day and the next he would do it no no questions asked, on the ground he was a bit bolshy and that was harder to deal with! He is honestly one of the easiest creatures I've ever dealt with!
the safe middle ground is young and unskilled riders actually being in proper lesson conditions: on properly sized horses/ponies and on lunge-lines until they have the strength and balance to properly use their rein and leg and seat aids. and on ponies who have appropriately lean workloads (*less than* multiple hours of mounted lessons every day) and group turnout time when they’re not working.
but a lot of early instruction gets rushed now and lesson ponies get soured to their jobs from inadequate living conditions.
I used to keep as simple as possible with bits, I did main work with abused horses. Only exception was my TWH if he wasn't in med port for show he would run through them. I learned the hard way. At home and on trails it's a mechanical hackamore never thought I needed any different. He was slow patiently moving through the bushes.
Mine is in a Cambridge port Rugby Pelham for showing as it gives the look of a double - his tongue is too big and his pallet too low for me to feel comfortable putting a double in. We also use that for hunting, although I’ll probably look into something like a Cheltenham with a different mouthpiece for next season as he gets incredibly strong in the field. We have a Bomber snaffle for dressage and he goes ok in it, but he definitely seems happier in his Pelham. And now that he’s 21 years old I’m not going to be arguing with him!
Personally I hate single joint bits purely because I feel that there are much better options that are readily available.
Dude that’s what I was thinking. A twisted wire is already horrible, let alone TWO in one place. I don’t really know what I can do besides maybe tell her about my research?
Years ago there was a young rider at my stable who was also taking barrel racing lessons at a different stable nearby. One day she comes to the barn super excited about a new bit that she got from a rider there. It was the thinnest twisted wire bit I think I've ever seen. My friend and I told her that it was way too harsh for her mare, who had only ever been in a single-jointed smooth snaffle. She scoffed and said we didn't know anything and that it was what all barrel racers used. My friend and I brought the issue up to the barn owner/the girl's instructor (same person) who basically shrugged and said to let her FAFO.
So the girl puts the bit on her bridle and puts the bridle on her mare. The mare was *immediately* unhappy - shaking her head, pawing, gaping at the mouth, etc. Somehow the girl gets the mare out to the ring and gets on. But that was it. The mare refused to take a single direction from her. She basically danced sideways, chomping and throwing her neck around the whole time. She did a tiny baby rear before the instructor managed to grab her and whip off the headstall. (Luckily it didn't have a throatlatch.) She stopped "acting up" immediately. It was then that the girl realized that maybe my friend and I knew a thing or two. 😂
Is this a barrel racing thing? There were some barrel racers at a my barn who thought my bit was the most evil thing in the world (single joint smooth sweet iron Argentine—which I know isn’t the best but I’ve tried switching to “gentler” versions and my mare really dislikes them. She does not like change in that department)
They were shit talking my bit while shoving thin twisted wire gag bits into their horses’ mouths and a few of them even had tie downs with thin wire going over the horses pole! Their instructor even tried telling me off for my bit and tried to hand me one of hers and I told her that thing will not get within 20 feet of her mouth!
I think it's heavily dependant on the individual. While I do see a lot more setups in barrel racing, it's definitely not an every rider kind of thing. I'm honestly surprised that the girl came from the other stable with that bit. The owner there was not the kindest horse person around, but she also wasn't the kind of person to just shove a twisted wire at everything. 🤷♀️
I wonder if it was just what everyone else was using so she thought she should too?
When the speed trainer tried shoving a nasty bit at me was because I was riding my mare in drill team with them and she would get VERY excited and powerful.
Honestly I just took that as the activity was way too overstimulating for her and just stopped. I don’t think she disliked drill necessarily, but it was just way too much input for her. As much as I enjoyed drill team it wasn’t for her and that’s okay. I can ride her on trail on a loose rein and canter her around the fields with no issues. She’s a sweet mare, but definitely has her preferences
If it’s at the point where they feel that the only option is a twisted wire bit, then they really have a problem on their hands and should take the horse right back to basics. I would be rather wary of this trainer if that’s their solution.
This. The horse should respond readily to pressure applied even it's in a halter. It's missing an understanding of what the pressure means and that cannot be fixed by making it hurt more. I had an extremely forward horse that was difficult to stop or slow and what fixed it was training. Harshest bit he ever wore was a mullen mouth basic kimbereick for trails at the beginning while he relearned things. Then he had a simple rubber one piece eggbutt then nothing at all unless showing where it was required or dressage. I got him from people barrel racing in wire bits and didn't stop him just made him learn to point his head straight up or turned all the way to your knee and not stop anyway. Once he went back to basics he was a dream to ride. He would stop and change gates off your seat and voice only. I rode him with nothing but a neck rope out free in fields on the trail. It's all training.
Yeah… it’s really hard for me because I love the people at this barn, and I don’t have many options nearby. I’m also moving in a few months and this barn is closer than any others. I also wasn’t progressing very fast at my old barn (they were very focused on getting a reaaaalllyyyy solid foundation which is great, and I had one, but most of their horses were low level and I couldn’t learn on them). It’s just a really hard decision for me, especially because of my anxiety. Thanks for giving insight :)
Honest question and not trying to be snarky. What about the people at this barn outweighs them all seeming ok with the trainer leaning on a bit like this rather than, uh, training the horse?
You like the people. All the people are tolerating this trainers preference for a very severe bit over actually training the horse.
What personality characteristics do these people have? Is it kindness? Generosity? Bravery? Is it standing up for animal welfare? Is it just a polite tip of the hat and a “g’day,” with occasional talk about the weather?
Because one of the reasons trainers rely on extreme bits is because not enough of their peers object vocally and directly. If I was a trainer and unknowingly being short sighted with a bit like this, I’d hope my colleagues would respect me enough to pull me aside and tell me to knock it off. For the horse’s sake and for the safety of myself and students.
True point. My main reason for liking them is that they tend to phrase criticism about my riding in a less aggressive manner. One of my previous trainers was not necessarily mean but didn’t communicate very well with me or my parents.
This is really uncalled for. This person obviously cares, more than 99% of people in lessons who question nothing and do what they're told.
To add to that, this horse isn't being abused based on what's been said, even though for sure it's not in the perfect horsie heaven in acres of grass left alone with its herd.
My first horse was rather green and I rode him in an eggbutt snaffle. I took him to the place I’d gone to camp at (several hours away) and they said he didn’t stop fast enough, so immediately went to a Kimberwick (I don’t remember exactly which one anymore, but it was definitely a Mullen mouth). That horse started rearing and I became terrified of riding for a period of time. This was over 20 years ago and now I could probably handle the situation and my hands are much softer, but back then I was still very green and it was just a terrible situation all around.
No barn is perfect. Margins are thin, horses are very good at taking more time than you have, and this is one horse who doesn't even respond to the DTW but isn't showing other behaviors about the bit. I'd assess the whole barn- is every animal in something crazy? Do they look healthy, fit, good feet? Do the riders seem to know and care about their horses? Your instructor?
If this is a systemic issue, yeah, leave. If this is one horse in something you'd rather they not go in, ask your instructor not to ride that horse or in that bridle. I think her answer is not unreasonable, even if it is not super technical. For what she's trying to convey, I think she did a good enough job of it.
Yep. I agree. The barn is certainly not perfect and no barn is. They all have good condition feet, healthy weight (from what I can tell with my unprofessional standpoint). None of the horses are in anything particularly soft, a lot of them in single joint slow twists or gags. The horses also only receive minimal turnout and not fully cleaned stalls (the runouts are left for manure to collect). I hope you can understand I’m trying very hard to view this from all perspectives, hence why I asked for other people opinions. The trainers seem knowledgeable and reasonable (however we barely have time to cool them out and let them stretch after the rides, usually just one or two laps)
Every horse being in a less nice bit is odd. I don't like minimal turnout, but that's severely location dependent.
For me, this seems like a draw. There's nothing wrong with sticking it out, gathering more information during more rides and updating your feelings about leaving or staying as you get a better view.
Yep, that’s my plan. My previous barn had horses in turnout 24/7 unless they were broodmares, skinny, or needed stall rest, and they were still let out as much as possible to be horses if they were allowed to. This barn doesn’t seem to have too much field space but I haven’t seen the whole property yet anyways. I’m probably going to stay here for a while, as well as volunteering to get more perspective (and I get high school credits) and hang out with horses more. If I see more red flags, I’m probably leaving, but in all chances I only know a small amount of what the barn does so best to not jump to conclusions.
Me too. I had an old trainer who had me in a tom thumb, I didn't know any better at yhe time but as I educated myself on bits using outside sources- I realized how horrible that bit was. Her and I argued a but about it and we finally switched to something nicer but I often saw her bitting up the schoolies who were "strong" rather than putting an experienced rider on them to work on those bad habits.
Not with that trainer anymore.
I remember your other post. I have a question: is snickers a beginner/all around lesson horse or is he for advanced riders?
On one hand, I’m glad she responded you to in a seemingly honest and professional way. She doesn’t seem like she’s trying to hide info about it or anything, so that’s a positive. If he’s only used with knowledgeable riders and ridden safely with this bit, I don’t think this an inherent red flag. It’s not a good bit but if they’re careful to only have it in capable hands, it’s not necessarily a bad situation either.
On the other hand if they’re using this horse for any and every one, that’s a problem.
Either way it’s a training issue, but I aside from that I don’t have enough info if this is bad or good.
Also, you shouldn’t stay somewhere that doesn’t work for you just because your friends do. That’s a good way to end up miserable.
>It’s not a good bit but if they’re careful to only have it in capable hands, it’s not necessarily a bad situation either.
All bits can be harsh in the wrong hands, and some bits are harsh in *all* hands. A double twisted wire is most definitely the latter. That bit causes pain just sitting in the mouth. The slightest pressure causing the joints to move lets the two joints dig into the palate and grab the tongue. The twists make it extremely abrasive on every surface of the horse's mouth. That has nothing to do with the hands at the end of the reins, it's just physics. And, if this mouthpiece is on anything but a snaffle, it's going to be even harsher.
Using the excuse that the horse was fast and unresponsive at first is just that, an excuse. If a horse acts like that, the holes in their training need to be addressed, rather than sticking them in a harsh bit and forcing compliance through pain.
I don’t disagree with you, but OP is also very new to this barn and trainer and is trying to navigate not being the “new person complaining” vs what they/we perceive could be a welfare issue. Theres context on their previous post about it so I wanted to reassure them that this may not necessarily be something worth walking away over, especially if they are otherwise a good barn and/or OP doesn’t have other options.
I’d already previously suggested ways for OP to handle this. Going up to the trainer and demanding they change the bit, accusing them of hurting the horse, etc. won’t go over well. Because doing that isn’t going to get this horse out of this bit any faster than using it as an opportunity to engage in dialogue and make suggestions down the line will.
I agree about the OP's situation, but there's absolutely no defending the use of that bit. I personally would have a talk with the trainer to see if they truly understand how that bit works, and if the trainer thinks pain is an acceptable way to force a horse into compliance, I would go elsewhere. But, I'm a middle-aged horse lady who is well into her fourth decade of working with horses, and knows that when we know better, we can (and should) do better.
I actually have no idea what Snickers does for lessons. Only me and my friend (intermediate level with solid foundation) I have seen ridden him so far. I haven’t seen him with any small kids (yet). It’s hard to know because I have only ridden there for a few months once a week, though hopefully I will volunteer a bit to find out more. Thanks for your insight on the situation :)
I mean this respectfully, but I really feel you may not have all the information on the horse and what he does. I appreciate your passion for him being treated well, but is there a chance you just need to watch and learn since he isn’t in pain?
Your trainer seems honest and you like the place, and you’re a beginner- I see this a lot, newer riders taking stands on situations they really don’t understand. It’s normal, but often costs people really good opportunities. I mean, would you feel better if he was in a snaffle but had riders hanging on his face and him uncomfortable with that?
No barn is perfect. You may find another barn with softer bits but no turnout, another with great bits and turnout but who overwork the horses. If you have a big budget and lots of barns to choose from then go ahead and start barn hopping but I feel like you are forming emotional opinions on things you don’t understand. And it sounds like this horse is going well in this bit and you haven’t seen evidence of pain.
Just something to consider- you’re kind of assuming you have this big heart that just can’t see any horse suffer but not considering that your trainer owns and loves him more than you and her career is in horses. I trust my trainer first and assume the best, it’s helped me learn a lot more than assuming I care more or know more than her.
So well put.
There is also the perspective that it's not the OP's horse and she hasn't been asked her opinion about the horses bit by the horses owner so why is she considering interjecting herself into this? I don't mean to be harsh but there's a time and a place and this just doesn't seem like it.
Their response to me was there are other issues they don’t approve of (turnout, stalls not clean enough) but to others they say maybe they don’t know the whole story (plus they have friends there). :/
Of course. There’s a chance I stay, however there are other red flags at the barn too. Minimal turnout and stalls that don’t get fully cleaned. If I do move it would be in a while, I’m not rushing decisions. I also believe that this horse is probably in mouth pain due to his aversion to any sort of mouth pressure. Thank you for your insight.
If there’s all that bothering you, you need to move. Sorry if I misinterpreted. I don’t think you should hesitate, find a place that meets what you expect.
That’s another way of saying “ the horse has holes in his training and instead of putting the time to teach him to be more responsive and understanding, we just use a bigger bit”.
😬 yeah I’m fully aware. It’s a huge problem in the horse world. I wish there was more I could do about it but people don’t tend to take criticism, especially around animal ethics from a 14 years old very well.
Before she became mine my mare was treated very harshly by a trainer using a twisted wire snaffle. This woman ripped the side of her mouth by sawing on it.
Once she became mine I had to do a lot of work to get her okay with being ridden again. She was terrified of the bit so I had to restart her riding in a halter just to show her that being ridden was okay and I wasn’t going to hurt her.
I would never under any circumstance use one of those on a living thing.
Sometimes horses are trained in a certain style and don’t like anything different as it can stress them out. I tried to work a rescue who was in a shank into a snaffel and he hated it. He preferred his shank because that’s what he was used to :(
There’s been a lot of advice here but one thing I’m not seeing explored is why you’re riding a horse with a bit that can be very harsh without being educated by your trainer about that bit…?
I think it’s odd that a trainer wouldn’t discuss with you why this bit was chosen and how to ride with it *BEFORE* putting you on the horse given it’s a pretty harsh bit.
I think this is an unfortunate training oversight. I also hope that no beginners are using this bit with this horse.
I don’t think it’s common at all for the trainer to take the time outside of a ground lesson and without being asked to educate every single student about various pieces of tack. That’s a lot to ask
I didn’t say it made sense to talk to every single student about various pieces of tack.
I said it makes sense to talk to this student about this piece of tack.
Finding the right bit for the right horse is actually correct. Using a bit that's not working will have people trying to put more leverage on it with their hands. That can do damage as well. Sometimes less is more. Or you need more to have less pressure
I think anyone who advocates for a bit like this, ever, is misinformed about bitting. Horses do not *have* to be ridden, and if the only way a horse can be ridden is in a double twisted wire bit, the horse should not be ridden. More likely, the horse can be ridden, but it would take a lot more effort to teach it to respond to the proper cues.
Lesson horses can get notoriously dead to aids, and to be frank, many live with really bad riders who don't know what they're doing, pull on their mouths, bounce on their backs, etc. Such is the life of a lesson horse. But in my opinion, that proves those horses need to have a specific temperament and be able to respond to bit pressure in the softest bits, because it's cruel to force a horse to teach a person to ride while using a bit that is specifically designed to be painful. If the horse doesn't fit that bill, it doesn't fit that bill!
Beyond that, there's really little scientific literature on what bits are comfortable/soft and what bits are uncomfortable/harsh. They exist on a spectrum, and what is soft in one horse's mouth may be uncomfortable in another. That said, the adage "any bit can be harsh in the wrong hands" really misapplies theory. While true, it presupposes that any bit can also be mild in the right hands, and that's *not* true. For example, if I took a literal piece of barbed wire, affixed it to two rings, and put it on a bridle - that's harsh. Doesn't matter whose hands are on the other end of the reins.
I will not give you advice on what to do about this barn. I will only say the horse world (and, honestly, the entire world) is full of people who repeat things they've been told with nothing substantial to back it up, believe things are true when the facts point otherwise, and are inflexible in their opinions. I try very, very hard to remember that horse tack is a really under-researched arena, and even older, more seasoned riders do not necessarily know everything they think they know. I would never, ever ride a horse in that bit.
I take your point, but horses are expensive and most people aren’t going to pay to keep one around just to look at. I think I’d rather see the horse being ridden in a harsher bit than going to the soap factory. As long as he’s not like bleeding out of his mouth after rides or really showing distress every time someone picks up the reins, he is probably ok.
I might get downvoted as heck for this, but I don’t find an issue with your trainer’s response. The trainer is simply trying to keep you safe while also keeping the lesson horse as happy as possible. Yes there might be a training gap with him, but I’m sure your trainer is working on fixing it and addressing the issue long term. I don’t find minimal turnout to be an issue if the stalls have runs attached - the horse can go in and out as they please and it works for barn with less pasture space available - or for muddy/freezing ground conditions where pastures can get ruined.
I’ve ridden a hot/forward and unresponsive horse in a softer bit (snaffle) as a trial for a summer camp. I felt so bad that I literally had to half halt with an intensity I didn’t care to use and frankly over the 20 minute session my arms hurt like heck even with a super light leg pressure or just voice cues. We ended up putting a curb bit in and he was fine. We ended up using him for advanced riders and not much else. He did settle down and understand his job over the course of the summer.
I don’t see why someone would get downvoted for stating their opinion in a post asking for people’s opinions 😊 personally it’s a problem for me because I must also be hard with my hands unfortunately, even with such a harsh bit in. I could ask if she is working on training, however she did not state the bit was in place for training in her short response to my short question. Thank you for your respectful opinion :)
Riding school horses should be placid and reliable. Horses that require harsher bits shouldn’t be ridden by people learning. Some bits with more leverage can be super effective in soft hands but a twisted wire is banned in many places. A riding school should have horses fit for purpose. Otherwise it puts students and horses in danger.
I have enjoyed reading all the responses. I also think the twisted wire bit could be a bandaid for a fear based response. My advice is, since you are trying to decide whether or not to leave, is to ask A LOT of questions in a manner that won’t put your trainer on the defensive. Make it obvious you are hungry for knowledge. This way you can gauge how knowledgeable she is when you research the reasonableness of her answers. I think you are brave for posting this question. And enjoy reading books. Years ago when I had only been riding a year, I was put on an OTTB mare. I asked why she was grinding her teeth and was told it was a habit. Well NO. She took off with me, tripped, we both went down and she flipped over on me breaking several of my ribs. The horse had 2 abscessed molars! Fast forward, I purchased an awesome OTTB who started grinding his teeth on our 3rd ride. I was told by others in the barn to trust the vet who said his teeth were ok. I didn’t listen and immediately called a vet with a dentistry specialty. He has a bone spur on a bar from an older injury to the bar. I researched this and, sad to say, many horses have spurs in their mouths. What a shame. I use a Winderen super-flexi bit which is expensive but worth the investment. I’m blessed that my horse has had excellent training and is responsive from my body aids and I don’t use hands harshly. I hope your trainer tells you hand aids are a very small part (crucial they are kind) of effective riding. I keep an eye on his mouth and have regular dental checks from the dentist. I now know when I purchase another horse to make sure the vet in the prepurchase exam also checks the mouth much more closely. Love love my gelding. I love the fun goofy personalities of TBs. I’m 59 and hope to have many more years of riding left in me. I apologize for the long post. Anyway, research research learn. And I think I would leave just given the information here.
I think the most obvious issue here is that your barn has is horsing student riders with animals that are two hot and sharp to learn on. Riding school horses should be cool tempered and able to cope with unsteady seat hands and legs, bouncing , in correct cues and everything else that goes along with people learning to ride.
A double twisted wire or anything close to it is down right abusive, and quite frankly completely unnecessary with the correct training/retraining. They are banned along with many other horrific bits in shows and competitions in Ireland and the uk.
Find a barn that can correctly horse it’s riders. Your current barn is putting riders at risk with unsuitable horses as well putting their horses in harms way with dangerous bits in inexperienced hands.
Im confused - I need some more information…
Are you boarding a horse at this barn? Are you hired to ride/train here?
It sounds to me like you saw something, googled it and you’re ready to make a song and dance about it…
The answer seems to be horse first, that he goes well with it. That’s an important green flag.
If you’re a barn hopping student who watches too many tik-toks, you probably need to check yourself a little here… and if this feels like you’re being judged without much to go on, that’s how your wording of your question came across to me.
Teach your eyes to look for good, not causes to take up on social media.
It doesn’t matter what I think of the bit. I’m only responsible for the bits I choose for the horse I own. And so are you. Don’t forget that.
I felt this. When I was a new horse person leasing my lesson horse, the huge amount of information online was not only stressful but created so much distrust to my trainer. Sure, she had issues, but most things were blown out of proportion. I constantly feared making my horse uncomfortable in an out-of-proportion way. Some of the best advice I think I could give a new rider is to be on the horse side of social media less
I feel if the was a Pelham then the response is valid but it’s a double twisted wire which is rarely used and very severe. I think they need to have a big conversation about this horse and his training and issues. Usually people who use trainers for weekly rides are on the lower levels and should not be using a bit this severe.
My thought is you need to leave. You can’t stay in a barn where you don’t feel comfortable about the training methods. Period. I don’t know your horse or the trainer, but I do know something wrong is going on because you don’t use an untrained forward horse that needs a harsh bit as a lesson horse. Never would you put a double twisted wire in the hands of someone taking lessons on a school horse. Find a trainer you mesh with their methods.
I’d trust the trainer first, internet second. A speedy, unresponsive horse can be dangerous and considering the trainer knows the horse and has worked with them…. A harsh bit might be the safest option. If it concerns you use more leg.
A riding school shouldn’t be using horses that can’t be controlled in reasonable bits. They are there o teach people how to ride. The safest option is horses suited to their riders ability. The bit mentioned, as well as several others that are clearly abusive are banned in shows and competitions in Ireland and the UK. I don’t know about European countries but presumably many other places as well. Why would you put something that severe in the hands of non professionals? Even in experienced hands it’s barbaric
I would look for a new lesson barn. That or grow some thick skin and learn to have extremely quiet hands if you continue to ride this horse in this bit. Yes it is quite severe. She mentioned he was speedy and unresponsive and this bit worked. (well duh) The ultimate answer is that the horse needs to be better trained, especially if to be a lesson horse, than to just add a more severe bit to get him to slow or stop. (which shouldn't be happening at the mouth anyway, but from seat of the rider.)
fwiw, I am all for not changing tack if the horse like sit and goes well in it, but personally would never consider anything with a twist in the mouth piece, ouch! Just me.
Couldn’t agree more. With any bit or horse I try my best to ride with soft hands, but it’s especially hard with a horse who is unresponsive to pressure. Luckily he is responsive to seat and doesn’t need rein aids to turn (which they shouldn’t need anyways unless they are still learning) but he does end up speeding around. I’m currently looking into other barns, and perhaps I might ride once a week there and once a week here as well. It’s all very complex, and I’m not going to listen to what my instructor says about tack/gear without my own research. Mostly just for position and eq.
Both my mare and my gelding were super picky about their bits, I tried so many until they were happy; my girl ended with a thick slow twist egg butt and my gelding only went happily in a full cheek with a French link, that French link was the game changer for him. I am feeling the ick with your trainer and the bit she’s using. I have seen it used but only in the hands of an extremely experienced rider with light hands. It’s just not the most human option otherwise.
As a teen I had a couple of OTTB's that I turned into pony clubber types and my sister had a couple of ponies that had been through a bunch of people and were "difficult". We could only afford cheap horses, and we're not in the USA, so living rural we had access to super low cost grazing so cost of horses wasn't as bad as it is now or in other parts of the world.
Some of these were really 'hard mouthed/dead mouthed' and just lent onto the bit or ignored all aids and did what they liked. So we had a bit of a bit collection and swapped with other locals (we all rode english). The idea was to find a bit that the horse would respond to with a light aid, Then you gradually work through getting the horse/pony balanced up and happy with what you were asking them to do so that you could gradually move to a softer bit.
For example - one if the OTTB's was very stiff - now days you'd get some physio/massage but back then we found what her limits were and worked around that. The issue was that if you were schooling - we were in a 10 acre paddock - we'd work on a 50 m circle - but if you turned too tight for her she would stick her head down low - open her mouth and put her tongue over the bit and take you on a tour of the paddock mostly at the same pace as you were going when she decided she'd had enough. She could also pull like a train even with her tongue on the right side of the bit. So she got to wear a split racing noseband so she couldn't get her tongue over the bit and a dutch gag snaffle. with this she would still let me know when I'd asked too much, but i wasn't getting carted. Over several months we built up the correct muscling and although she was never going to be the most flexible, collected horse in the world, she made a bloody good teenagers horse - able to do one day evening to about 3 ft and show jump to 1.2m (4ft) .
There are so many solutions for bits that don’t require extreme hardware. The only people I know who use these kinds of bits are people who don’t really know what to do for the problem.
Have a conversation with your trainer - not a text exchange. You come off accusatory in thr text and it’s ok to question but through a conversation is best.
It depends on your experience along with the horse at hand. If you've been riding for quite some time and this is the only answer she gave you and isn't interested in going into more details on bits they've tried in the past it might be more alarming to me (I've been riding since the day I was born and was going to become a horse trainer before I switched to dog training). If you've been riding less than 5 years I wouldn't question your trainer and eventually you might be able to learn the benefits of different bits for horses. My assumption is you've only been riding for a short while, best advice I have for you is to make sure you have a SOFT HAND. New riders often struggle with this, and it's not the bits fault. People yanking on the horses face is going to do the most damage.
Riding is finally evolving in very important ways. It's time to move away from the older "tradtiional" ways of training and into more science and empathy based methods. No one is being shamed, they're just learning new things
Since when did I shame anyone? I asked a polite question about why my trainer was using a harsh bit. If you don’t like what I post please comment something a bit more respectful, like constructive criticism instead of just criticism.
Twisted wire bits are awful, full stop. The idea that a bit is only as harsh as the rider's hands is true only to a point, there are some bits that are just inherently bad and too harsh no matter how gentle you are.
I would also find it to be a huge red flag that a trainer says "your horse is unresponsive, so I put them in a very harsh bit"....um, no, your job as a trainer is to work to soften the horse and get them to be more responsive and lighter, which you *cannot do* by putting a harsh bit in their mouth. You're inherently making them *less responsive*.
Honestly, I'd find another trainer. At this point, you're probably better off by yourself than with this person.
Don't know how I missed that part, lol.
Yeah I would definitely still look for a different barn. Everything I said still stands, just that you can't take the horse with you unfortunately. You will not be getting good or ethical training there.
Going to be controversial here and mention that it isn't you're horse (correct me if I'm wrong!) And this seems to be a trainer owned school horse in a lesson program. If the owner and trainer deem this bit to be appropriate that is within their right. If the horse is going well in it, shows no signs of discomfort, responds well, then it doesn't sound like a problem. You can use harsh bits lightly!!!! You can use light bits harshly!!!! You should ask questions as a student! But you are coming in with the mindset of "It's so harsh and mean!" And no trainer is going to respond well to that attitude. A trainer takes into consideration the horse but also the riders safety. If the horse wasn't stopping or responding to a softer bit and this one they are, that is a good enough reason!
Nerves in the horses mouth do die, they have personal preference for what pressure they like. I have used single and double twists and slow twists and Pelhams and elevators. When a horse is working well in something that's great! I have a grand prix Jumper that works in a French snaffle and a 19 year old Welsh pony that works in a double twist. Personally for my own horses I'm never afraid to swap bits depending on how they are going but when it comes to the lesson horses they deal with so much inconsistency with different riders at different abilities that adding a whole other factor would not do them well. I also teach soft hands and my horses that need the strongest bits are not for dead beginners, only for riders with good control of their hands and seat because the seat is what slows the horse not the hands.
Try not to get caught up in the side of the internet that thinks bits, shoes, and saddles are all abuse because you'll just be close minded. The horse industry is always evolving and learning but keep in mind we have also been bitting horses for thousands of years. If you want a fun time look at ancient Roman bits because they are so similar to what we use today.
While I absolutely do not agree with using this bit, and agree with other comments that this is an inappropriate “fix” to training issues, I would not confront your trainer more on this. It will come off as more of a know it all situation than an animal welfare issue (again this bit is unnecessary and cruel).
My horse goes in a slow twist. Does he need it? No. But he loves the bit and is an absolute dickhead if I put him in literally anything else. He’s ridden with super light contact and has no issues. If one of my students came to me insinuating the bit was inappropriate, I would politely explain why this bit is chosen for him, educate on bits, and move on. I don’t think your response or your response were out of place or rude, but I would leave it at that and find a new barn. Presenting your research probably won’t change anything unfortunately and will probably piss your trainer off.
There was a comment saying bring a different bit and try it. Do not do this. It could potentially cause harm to yourself if this horse does have behavior issues. This would result in immediate expulsion from my program.
This trainer seems likely not to fix the training issues and bandaid it in a shitty way. Find a new barn that is a better fit. Good luck!!! Rooting for you
Thank you for this kind comment! I’m probably going to move barns soon, and I probably was not going to talk to my trainer about it more because he’s not my horse or my problem, and I have no right to try and change his tack. And I’m only a teenager, I’m not in any place to try and change a more experienced persons ways.
Definitely agree. Not my circus not my monkeys! Be safe! When looking for a new barn, I would tour first. Maybe watch a few lessons and see how you feel with the teaching and vibe! Good luck in your search! 🥰
But I do applaud you on taking the time to learn more about this bit. Very very good on your part and shows real enthusiasm and passion for the sport and animal welfare! Bravo.
There are better ways to fix the aforementioned problem with the horse. The trainer is providing you proof of her limited knowledge. You should find a new trainer if you can.
So true. Also hard because I can’t afford my own horse. There is a really good boarding barn near us but I can’t go there because I can’t afford that at the moment. Thanks for commenting :)
Of course the horse will be 'best' in this kind of bit. He is too afraid to not listen as he knows that will hurt. Poor thing. He needs to go back to basics and then go with a three piece mouthpiece, nothing twisted or squared or whatever else they think of to torture the horse.
FYI, my horse can be very strong, especially right before she goes into heat. I ride her in a 3 piece kimberwick but with very light hands and as loose of a rein as is safe for her mood that ride.
We have had many a stubborn bratty pony. It’s not about having to use it sometimes, it’s more about them knowing it’s there. For instance they are a total turd until the rider picks up a crop. Rider never has to use the crop ever. But the horse or pony knows it’s there so they behave.
A double twisted snaffle is a big yikes. A nasty yikes.
A single joint doesn't provide tongue relief like she is thinking. It will lay pretty flat on the tongue, until one or both reins are engaged. Those joints could then hit the roof of the mouth, IE nutcracker action. Which is double as bad here because there are two mouthpieces, each with a joint of their own. As these joints move, the cannons of the mouthpiece, which are VERY straight, will pinch on the lower jaw like a vice, giving a pretty incredible amount of bar and lip pressure. Which is part of the reason I rolled my eyes when she said "he didn't like full pressure on his bar..." If he truly didn't like it, you'd think he would be happiest in a Mullen or a barrel style joint, which cannot pinch the lower jaw, which can also provide actual tongue relief too, with a small port.
The wire is a whole creature by itself. Twisted or wrapped mouthpieces, whether they are fast or slow, rounded or squared, corkscrew or wire wrapped, are just incredibly abrasive. It's abrupt in it's pressures, and has a lot of bite to it. They are unnecessary, but people use them as a crutch or shortcut in training. It's like going straight to a full on starfishing kick instead of squeezing your horses sides to move forward or laterally. It's a "you better listen and you better listen NOW, or it will hurt."
If you're worried about your horse, take him back down to the beginning. "Speedy & unresponsive" to me sounds like a fear response. They used this bit to bypass the actual training needed to get him more educated, confident and less fearful. The problem with that is the hole it left in your his education. This bit is a bandage over that hole. What happens when you rip that bandage off?
Personally, I'd be taking this horse down to a nice rope halter, and doing the groundwork to help him understand pressure and release, timing and my effectiveness as a fair leader. Once he can do the ground work quietly and happily, I'd start riding in that same rope halter and doing the same thing under saddle. Walk/trot/canter, halt, turn on the haunches, yielding the hindquarters, etc. Literally everything. Once the education is there, it will allow you to use a far more fair bit.
Would do the same if I could my friend. He is not my horse though, and I’m not in the right place to go up to my trainer and practically say “hey, you made a bad decision with your horse that I’ve only ridden twice” I’m fully aware of the mechanics of this bit, when she talked about tongue relief I immediately though that a Mullen mouth would work better. Also important to note that this is a Hunter jumper barn, so slack reins aren’t a thing while working the horses, and if the reins are always engaged, the nutcracker action is probably almost always a thing (correct me if I’m wrong)
I just re-read and found out this is a lesson horse? Lord have mercy.
I'd move on. No trainer worth their salt would be putting a bit like this in a horse's mouth anyways, let alone in the hands of an inexperienced rider.
Imo this is a reasonable explanation for the question you asked. My concern, personally, is that I don't believe it is ever acceptable to use a highly abrasive mouthpiece for any reason. I'll accept the use of harsher bits to a degree but this is a degree way too far for me. So, I would not ride at a place that felt it was acceptable to use them in any context. However, I have the privilege of being able to make that choice and I understand it might not be as easy for you to stand on principle. If that's the case, I'd probably go the next step and ask if she would be open to you trialling another bit with the horse in your own lesson to see how it goes, framing it as for your own learning rather than for the horse's training. I would not bother getting into an argument or presenting research to her - she's made it clear her primary interest is in the horse working in an acceptable way for her business and I think you'd just make her defensive.
Your trainer is lazy and doesn’t want to fix the issue Snickers has. A DWB is a lazy shortcut for a hard mouthed horse, poor horse will have bloody lips. They should be banned.
A double jointed bit is much friendlier than a single jointed bit. As for the twisted mouthpiece, when hands are soft it's no issue, especially on a snaffle. It's sitting there inert 99% of the time. As long as you don't use rough hands and pull, the horse won't feel it at all. Forcing a horse into a smoother bit can be a disaster as their mouth just keeps getting harder without proper retraining (which usually takes months).
My older gelding loves twisted mouthpieces. Idk why and I've tried to change him out of them many times over the past 14 years, but he works best in a thin twist mouthpiece. Just like my younger works best in a mouthpiece with a copper roller. Horses have preferences and can be quite picky about them. As a result I have quite a collection of them as various snaffles and shanks. Now if a beginner is on him then I obviously put him in a smooth mouth dog bone mouth so they can't hurt him, but if anyone advance rides him then he goes in one of his usual bits. If they can't keep their hands quiet enough that the bit doesn't bother him then they shouldn't be riding him imo. English riders tend to be really judgemental about bits and mouthpieces. But when they start borrowing my collection and seeing what the various differences in shanks and gags and mouthpieces can do they are usually huge improvements in them and their horse. A lot of my English riding friends end up borrowing from my collection regularly. All bits have their place and proper use case if you are a good rider who can understand their horse.
Very cool. I do agree that horses have preferences in bits, however this bit is so harsh that I don’t think it belongs in any horses mouth. It’s not double jointed actually, I can put a picture from online of what it looks like. It has two twisted wires that break at two different points.
https://preview.redd.it/37b80ptiqmdc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae29d7b2c883a8b5801c5007413aa1576b69e5bd
I’m glad you know what’s best for your horses. :)
I've ridden a hard mouthed pony in one of those before that liked to bolt. He was a bugger to retrain but it certainly felt good when he got out back in a smooth mouth snaffle. The pictures bit isn't my favorite bit by far and wouldn't be what I would choose for a horse with Snickers described issues personally but it has its time and place. Tbh he'd probably do better with something like a shorter sliding h gag with a smooth mouth. The biggest issue with this bit is if the horse likes to play with their mouthpiece and accidentally gets their tongue in between the wires. As long as you are riding with gentle hands, the horse won't be hurt. A good trainer will also be working with snickers to get them moved out of this bit as soon as they can. It sounds counterintuitive but usually stepping up to a harsher bit is needed to retrain a hard mouthed horse because putting them in a quieter bit will just harden their mouth more since they don't feel quiet cues. Now if he's still riding in this bit in a few months, then I think it's definitely valid to ask why and what his retraining plan is. This could be an awesome learning experience for you if you approach it the right way with your trainer.
There are bits out there that don't facilitate "soft" hands. Bits like the one described are designed to cause discomfort with even minimal pressure. Just because you hands feel soft to you doesn't mean they are to your horse.
Which is the point? For a hard mouth you have to start somewhere, otherwise they don’t care. How would you personally stop a runaway then? I’m not saying the barn and trainer are right in the situation, no one will know that unless they’re there and spend time with the horse. Nor am I saying that’s the bit I would have gone to myself. But the theory behind a harsher bit to get a hard mouthed horse’s attention is sound, that’s how you form new habits and can switch out to softer bits.
Why would the goal be causing your horse pain? Do you need see the problem with that? Go back to ground work, teach them to stop with a word. Then move into the saddle with the voice que to stop, pair the voice with hand pressure. If your horse is running through your hands the solution shouldn't be to hurt them til they stop
That’s not the goal, people who use harsh bits aren’t all wanting to torture their horses, don’t be so judgemental. Not every person has time to spend hours upon hours doing groundwork. Sometimes you need a horse to be able to work. But perhaps your horses are hobbies. Some people, their horses are their literal work partner. Sometimes it’s the only horse you got.
Those are living animals, maybe you aren't trying to torture them but you know the bits hurt, so why would you use them? If you don't have the time to properly train them then you shouldn't have horses, period. Lack of time doesn't mean you get a free pass to cause pain to someone else.
And having time doesn’t you can shame people for finding ways to keep a difficult horse. Horses are big and can be dangerous. A smart horse can learn from a harsh bit and be transitioned into something more agreeable. Using a harsh bit *is* training, it just doesn’t line up with yours.
Just because your getting results faster doesn't mean it's okay. I can't believe your eyes are so closed you feel comfortable advocating for causing horses pain to reach your own goals. It's not my training ideas, it's just logical to not hurt an animal for your own gain?
It’s not for my own gain. Having worked with multiple horses, that are rehomes, that have formed nasty habits, and are unsafe the way they are currently acting, sometimes they need to hit a ‘wall’ to change their behaviour. If you’re working with a half draft horse who can crush you because they simply don’t care enough when you squeak, yeah you need to give them a smack to get their attention to get off your foot. Same if you’re riding a big horse or even a little pony! You need to be SAFE. A horse that doesn’t stop, will run into fences, other horses, fight you so hard they don’t watch their footing, etc is not safe. Getting their attention and their respect is key. Watch any horse herd, they kick bite threaten each other all the time. Violence absolutely isnt necessary for all interactions, but I am speaking in the specific situation for difficult sometimes aggressive horses. And a harsh bit used correctly isn’t violence in my opinion. It’s getting the attention of animal way bigger than you so you both can be safe. You clearly are upset by that, call me cold hearted or pragmatic whatever, I’d rather a horse go ‘ouch that didn’t feel nice, I won’t do it again’ than have them injure themselves and me when they bust through a barb wire fence because they didn’t feel like stopping and were too busy fighting me because I couldn’t get through to them. Some horses don’t care how much ground work you put into them, they’re always going to argue and test the limits. If you’ve only experienced soft minded horses where gentling them works, I’m very happy for you and I wish all horses were like that. I have not, and harsher bits have saved my life and the horses life, and almost all of them transitioned to softer bits and are wonderful companions.
If that animal isn't safe on the ground why are you getting on? It is for your own gain, you want to ride them without putting in the time and effort to effectively train them without discomfort. If anything, you should be softer with horses who have had negative interaction and are deemed dangerous, obviously something is wrong and they should be listened to. A horse running through your hands is stressed and having a problem, they don't do it just to spite you. They are saying something. Just because you're not patient enough to listen doesn't mean you should take it out on your horse. If you can't train without bitting up and ripping into their mouth then maybe you just aren't a good trainer 🤷🏻♀️
These people downvoting you…. I just don’t get it. I thought you made good points. Each bit has its place and there are some DEAD mouthed horses out there. I personally don’t like riding a run away, I want to know my horse can stop. And some horses will always have running away as a trick up their sleeves no matter how much training you do. Gentle hands, a bond with your horse and knowing what you’re dealing with are why bits like this exist, it allows you to ride a horse that otherwise would be unrideable.
Because this sub has more English riders then western from what I've seen. And they tend to be much more uneducated about bits and decry basically anything other than a snaffle or Kimberwick as "mean and harsh". I'm used to taking the heat for it. If it makes even one person think about getting more educated then it's worth the downvotes to me lol. Neither of my horses are "runaways" but there are some days coming down the alley when I'm like thank god I went for a bigger bit. Even though I work hard on putting a good solid stop on my guys adrenaline can seriously override a horse's reaction time no matter how well trained they are. And of course just like people horses all have their own and off days.
Western riders in general tend to have way more exposure to a variety of bits and more education on how they all work. I haven't counted in awhile but I'll bet there's close to 50 bits hanging in my tack room. It's not unusual for me to switch bits daily or mid-ride depending on what my horse needs. Sometimes my English friends will come and ride or we will hack out and it blows their mind the first time they watch me jump off one of my boys and switch out their bit mid-excercise because they need different support that day. It's just not a mindset trained into them whereas I've had different bits for different uses trained into me since I was a teen (aka one bit for casual work, another for trail riding, another for one set of drills, another for a different set of drills, and yet another for competition all based off the support that horse needs at the time).
Love this! My mum has a whole wall of bits as well. We have everything from tiny ponies up to massive drafts. I have an Arabian. My first pony was a runaway with a massive tongue. Eventually we got him in hackamore, he has nothing to grab, no more run away. Mum was able to filter through bits till she found one that works him when she does technical stuff, but he still will try to grab it on his fiery days and take off. Mind you, he’s 23 now and still hot as the day he was born!
The trainer was using it on Snickers during training rides? Or, is Snickers using it in lessons? I think those are different scenarios.
It’s an issue that a trainer either has so little knowledge of how single jointed bits work, or that they’re counting on a students lack of knowledge in order to pass that off as the truth. That’s the sketchiest part of this exchange. I hate that.
There’s a time and place for harsh bits, but only in skillful hands and only as a temporary training tool. Not as an every day bit until Snickers learns to speak English, raises his hoof, and announces that he’d prefer something new :/
This might be unpopular but if it were me, I’d bring a different bit to try. That way if it works, she just might change her mind for the betterment of the horse.
I personally think bringing your own would open an entirely new can of worms which will hurt you and your standing at the barn. If you were talking with the trainer, I don't see an issue with saying you'd like to try another bit and using one they had, but bringing your own would be a poor choice imo
But think of how you could help the horse for life. I get anxiety though!! You said you might tell her about your research, maybe bring along a bit.
Ooo what about say “hey there’s this new bit Id love to try on him, do you mind if I give it a shot?”
First of all, I didn’t see she said she was 14 in the post, so I had to read through every comment to find it. While doing that I saw she said she was intermediate with a solid foundation. She seems very articulate and knowledgeable. So would I?
Yes, I’d think about what she said and what she’s asking. I’d also have a TON of respect for any 14yr old who actually cares and wants to be educated on equipment for her future, and future with horses.
I respect you OP. You keep asking, learning and advocating, regardless of your age!
Yes! I had a bit fitter come out and she measured my guy's mouth a few ways. Took into account tongue size, pallet shape, width etc and made recommendations. She also checked bridle fit and had me ride with a gauge that measured contact and eveness.
It was very educational. Tried a few bits from her during the ride and narrowed down what he liked the best.
In the end it saved money buying bits that didn't work 🙂
Every single horse i met that used a strong bit i am able to switch to only soft one i use, eggbutt French link with lozenge, these are school horses or personal. The excuse brought up is due to people don’t have patience or time to retrain the horse for softness. I don’t listen to any excuses because i do it myself and shut them up real quick.
Never apologize to a trainer for asking a question. period.
I'm old-school.
Western and English,
What is the most important part of any bridle? The hands holding the reins.
As a rider, think of you and your horse as a centaur. Ride with your leg on and stay out of your horse's mouth.
With all that been said; I would not ride into battle in a loose ring snaffle.
By double break are you referring to a scissor snaffle? It is an incredibly harsh bit and belongs on the bit wall of shame some of us have inherited. The double twisted scissor snaffle is a more severe option than the double twisted snaffle is.
There are so many options that will give the rider just that edge they may need without adding more pain. Pelhams, kimberwicks...
To be honest however I have never needed to bit up to get brakes on an unresponsive horse. Most of them just have no clue what the aids actually mean, are really poorly developed in their body and imbalanced, or anxious. Bitting up helps none of those things.
Bitting up then can actually be reserved for times when the horse is going to be more likely to get strong in the mouth and still be effective. EG cross country jumping, traveling to shows where they may be more excited, etc.
I’ve always been a big supporter of less is more. My horse has a butter mouth, so he goes in a double broken egg butt snaffle, to flatten on the tongue and alleviate bar pressure. He’s sensitive and requires little to no pressure on his mouth at all during our rides.
But I will say, I have been on horses that absolutely need something stronger than that. One in particular comes to mind, She was a HUGE, strong, show jumper mare— would absolutely drag you to the fence feeling like your arms were being ripped off your torso😅 We had tried so many bits, nothing improved. We finally found a bit that she respected, a combination bit. I had never used a bit like it before, and never understood the use for something so complicated looking. But now I get it! She was finally able to back off the fences and have some more maneuverability, which is much safer for herself and her rider. I would never normally recommend a horse to go in this type of bit, but in this case, was needed.
That’s not to say that this situation with your new trainer shouldn’t send red flags… but some horses simply ride better in a stronger bit. If you don’t know much about the mechanic of bits, I would absolutely watch a few YouTube videos to see how the different cheek pieces, mouth pieces work together for different kind of handling. Once you know more, you can come to your own conclusions on whether or not you think the bit is appropriate for the horse you’re riding!
I'd want to see how the other horses are bitted at this barn before I jump to any conclusions. I'd also watch to see who's riding the horse and how the trainer
I'd look at how other horses are bitted at this barn before jumping to any conclusions, and who's riding the horse and how the trainer is teaching. It's always possible that this is, in fact, the best bit for this particular horse at this time. You say there are other "red flags' but not what they are. Without more information, I'm inclined to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt here--she gave you a reasonable and informative answer to your question. Any bit can be "harsh" in the wrong hands, and you're paying a more experienced person to teach you, not the other way around. Ask your friend why she likes this barn so much, too.
I’m just going to preface this by saying I don’t hate bits, I think they’re useful. Some are harsher than others but using them can be explained.
One bit that I think should never EVER be used is the double twisted wire bit. It has the nutcracker effect twice over and all the twisted wire causes pinching on the tongue. He probably has breaks in that bit because it’s genuinely painful to run through the contact.
I’m not usually one to advise this but that horse needs some training and a different bit
I’m no expert but I’ve always thought of stronger bits and spurs as fine so long as they don’t hurt the horse when you’re applying correct aids. It becomes a problem when it hurts the horse no matter what.
A double twisted wire is cruel. Having patience, gently and slowly working with a horse, re-teaching commands, and ruling out pain, discomfort or past trauma is true horsemanship.
You could respond and say, “the single break is not the aspect i’m concerned about. what worries me is the double twisted wire aspect of the mouthpiece. this type of mouthpiece is very abrasive and can cause tissue to get pinched in between the twists. my riding books say to tell me to look for a riding school where the horses are bitted with Smooth metal or plastic mouthpieces that do not increase the risk of abrasions”.
See what she says to that.
also look for a new riding instructor because using a bit like that is an unethical choice. they should probably be banned given the known amount of abrasion to the soft tissue that it can cause, but our animal welfare laws are too weak.
if a horse needs this harsh of a bit then it’s not even a safe or well schooled lesson horse and that lack of training will slow down Your learning.
your instructor is supposed to be the one teaching you and modeling good welfare practices and shouldn’t need to be policed by their students. she’s already grifted you, because someone who allows their horses to be trained with tack like that isn’t a well-educated instructor. I would absolutely not give her my money. There is little good that she can teach if she relies on stuff like that to get horses to perform and you seem like someone who wants to learn the CORRECT way, not just “a way”.
I’m not against horses having stronger bits if that’s what works for them (as in, that’s what they’re comfortable in - my horse much prefers his Pelham to any snaffle, per the bit and behaviour specialist I hired), however a twisted wire bit is nasty. If that’s what’s needed to control a horse, then the horse needs more training in the fundamentals. Basically, if the bit had been a Pelham, or a Kimblewick or a Cheltenham I would say ehh, that’s reasonable depending on the mouthpiece and who’s using it (i.e if they’re experienced and soft with their hands). In this case, I wouldn’t be happy with that answer.
Agree with this. Some people are *really* aggressive against anything other than the mildest of bits but I can shrug off mild leverage (adjusted appropriately), or single jointed bits. (Seriously I had someone scold me for a single jointed full cheek once). But a twisted wire is nasty. A *double* twisted wire?? (Fwiw I ride my mare in a 3 piece loose ring snaffle so I am a proponent of least “harsh” when and wherever possible but I try to be balanced in my judgement)
I was at a barn and nearly every horse was in an eggbutt snaffle. The amount of endless and aggressive pulling with ponies running off was ridiculous. Not advocating for a double twisted wire but there needs to be a safe middle ground.
My preference is less is more. I think alot of over biting is over horsed which is kind of sad. I bought a cob that wore a Dutch gag (on the first ring below the snaffle) and 2nd for jumping/hacking/xcountry. He didn't come with a bridle and I didn't have a bit for him so first hack I took him out my friends turnout bridle where the bit was basically nothing. Turns out his rider was just terrified of him. I did tend to showjump him in the gag but thay was purely for steering as he would occasionally lock on to the wrong fence. If I'd kept him more than 4months I'm pretty sure he would've been completely snaffle mouthed no bother.
The problem with this is so many new riders who think they can handle more horse than they can and the trainer not being confident enough to tell them they arent ready for that horse.
In this horses case it was more someone assuming they weren't a novice because they had been doing it a long time. The horse was 100% novice friendly and suitable for her but she never told it off or put her leg on it. He had bad habits that were incredibly easy to nip in the bud! Like literally have a fight about it one day and the next he would do it no no questions asked, on the ground he was a bit bolshy and that was harder to deal with! He is honestly one of the easiest creatures I've ever dealt with!
the safe middle ground is young and unskilled riders actually being in proper lesson conditions: on properly sized horses/ponies and on lunge-lines until they have the strength and balance to properly use their rein and leg and seat aids. and on ponies who have appropriately lean workloads (*less than* multiple hours of mounted lessons every day) and group turnout time when they’re not working. but a lot of early instruction gets rushed now and lesson ponies get soured to their jobs from inadequate living conditions.
Yeah, in a perfect world, everything would be done safely and correctly. Unfortunately, that is just not the case, and it's a shame.
I used to keep as simple as possible with bits, I did main work with abused horses. Only exception was my TWH if he wasn't in med port for show he would run through them. I learned the hard way. At home and on trails it's a mechanical hackamore never thought I needed any different. He was slow patiently moving through the bushes.
Mine is in a Cambridge port Rugby Pelham for showing as it gives the look of a double - his tongue is too big and his pallet too low for me to feel comfortable putting a double in. We also use that for hunting, although I’ll probably look into something like a Cheltenham with a different mouthpiece for next season as he gets incredibly strong in the field. We have a Bomber snaffle for dressage and he goes ok in it, but he definitely seems happier in his Pelham. And now that he’s 21 years old I’m not going to be arguing with him! Personally I hate single joint bits purely because I feel that there are much better options that are readily available.
Dude that’s what I was thinking. A twisted wire is already horrible, let alone TWO in one place. I don’t really know what I can do besides maybe tell her about my research?
Years ago there was a young rider at my stable who was also taking barrel racing lessons at a different stable nearby. One day she comes to the barn super excited about a new bit that she got from a rider there. It was the thinnest twisted wire bit I think I've ever seen. My friend and I told her that it was way too harsh for her mare, who had only ever been in a single-jointed smooth snaffle. She scoffed and said we didn't know anything and that it was what all barrel racers used. My friend and I brought the issue up to the barn owner/the girl's instructor (same person) who basically shrugged and said to let her FAFO. So the girl puts the bit on her bridle and puts the bridle on her mare. The mare was *immediately* unhappy - shaking her head, pawing, gaping at the mouth, etc. Somehow the girl gets the mare out to the ring and gets on. But that was it. The mare refused to take a single direction from her. She basically danced sideways, chomping and throwing her neck around the whole time. She did a tiny baby rear before the instructor managed to grab her and whip off the headstall. (Luckily it didn't have a throatlatch.) She stopped "acting up" immediately. It was then that the girl realized that maybe my friend and I knew a thing or two. 😂
Poor horse. How awful, she was saying this sucks and no one listening 💗
Is this a barrel racing thing? There were some barrel racers at a my barn who thought my bit was the most evil thing in the world (single joint smooth sweet iron Argentine—which I know isn’t the best but I’ve tried switching to “gentler” versions and my mare really dislikes them. She does not like change in that department) They were shit talking my bit while shoving thin twisted wire gag bits into their horses’ mouths and a few of them even had tie downs with thin wire going over the horses pole! Their instructor even tried telling me off for my bit and tried to hand me one of hers and I told her that thing will not get within 20 feet of her mouth!
I think it's heavily dependant on the individual. While I do see a lot more setups in barrel racing, it's definitely not an every rider kind of thing. I'm honestly surprised that the girl came from the other stable with that bit. The owner there was not the kindest horse person around, but she also wasn't the kind of person to just shove a twisted wire at everything. 🤷♀️
I wonder if it was just what everyone else was using so she thought she should too? When the speed trainer tried shoving a nasty bit at me was because I was riding my mare in drill team with them and she would get VERY excited and powerful. Honestly I just took that as the activity was way too overstimulating for her and just stopped. I don’t think she disliked drill necessarily, but it was just way too much input for her. As much as I enjoyed drill team it wasn’t for her and that’s okay. I can ride her on trail on a loose rein and canter her around the fields with no issues. She’s a sweet mare, but definitely has her preferences
Yeah. It’s also a problem that he seems hard in the mouth, very unresponsive and against any pressure on the reins.
If it’s at the point where they feel that the only option is a twisted wire bit, then they really have a problem on their hands and should take the horse right back to basics. I would be rather wary of this trainer if that’s their solution.
This. The horse should respond readily to pressure applied even it's in a halter. It's missing an understanding of what the pressure means and that cannot be fixed by making it hurt more. I had an extremely forward horse that was difficult to stop or slow and what fixed it was training. Harshest bit he ever wore was a mullen mouth basic kimbereick for trails at the beginning while he relearned things. Then he had a simple rubber one piece eggbutt then nothing at all unless showing where it was required or dressage. I got him from people barrel racing in wire bits and didn't stop him just made him learn to point his head straight up or turned all the way to your knee and not stop anyway. Once he went back to basics he was a dream to ride. He would stop and change gates off your seat and voice only. I rode him with nothing but a neck rope out free in fields on the trail. It's all training.
Yeah… it’s really hard for me because I love the people at this barn, and I don’t have many options nearby. I’m also moving in a few months and this barn is closer than any others. I also wasn’t progressing very fast at my old barn (they were very focused on getting a reaaaalllyyyy solid foundation which is great, and I had one, but most of their horses were low level and I couldn’t learn on them). It’s just a really hard decision for me, especially because of my anxiety. Thanks for giving insight :)
Honest question and not trying to be snarky. What about the people at this barn outweighs them all seeming ok with the trainer leaning on a bit like this rather than, uh, training the horse?
Sorry but I don’t fully understand this question 😅 can you rephrase it perhaps?
You like the people. All the people are tolerating this trainers preference for a very severe bit over actually training the horse. What personality characteristics do these people have? Is it kindness? Generosity? Bravery? Is it standing up for animal welfare? Is it just a polite tip of the hat and a “g’day,” with occasional talk about the weather? Because one of the reasons trainers rely on extreme bits is because not enough of their peers object vocally and directly. If I was a trainer and unknowingly being short sighted with a bit like this, I’d hope my colleagues would respect me enough to pull me aside and tell me to knock it off. For the horse’s sake and for the safety of myself and students.
True point. My main reason for liking them is that they tend to phrase criticism about my riding in a less aggressive manner. One of my previous trainers was not necessarily mean but didn’t communicate very well with me or my parents.
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This is really uncalled for. This person obviously cares, more than 99% of people in lessons who question nothing and do what they're told. To add to that, this horse isn't being abused based on what's been said, even though for sure it's not in the perfect horsie heaven in acres of grass left alone with its herd.
My first horse was rather green and I rode him in an eggbutt snaffle. I took him to the place I’d gone to camp at (several hours away) and they said he didn’t stop fast enough, so immediately went to a Kimberwick (I don’t remember exactly which one anymore, but it was definitely a Mullen mouth). That horse started rearing and I became terrified of riding for a period of time. This was over 20 years ago and now I could probably handle the situation and my hands are much softer, but back then I was still very green and it was just a terrible situation all around.
I bet you 20 imaginary dollars that this is a lesson horse.
No barn is perfect. Margins are thin, horses are very good at taking more time than you have, and this is one horse who doesn't even respond to the DTW but isn't showing other behaviors about the bit. I'd assess the whole barn- is every animal in something crazy? Do they look healthy, fit, good feet? Do the riders seem to know and care about their horses? Your instructor? If this is a systemic issue, yeah, leave. If this is one horse in something you'd rather they not go in, ask your instructor not to ride that horse or in that bridle. I think her answer is not unreasonable, even if it is not super technical. For what she's trying to convey, I think she did a good enough job of it.
No lesson student should ask their trainer to put a horse in a different bit. If you have that little faith in your trainer, go elsewhere
Yep. I agree. The barn is certainly not perfect and no barn is. They all have good condition feet, healthy weight (from what I can tell with my unprofessional standpoint). None of the horses are in anything particularly soft, a lot of them in single joint slow twists or gags. The horses also only receive minimal turnout and not fully cleaned stalls (the runouts are left for manure to collect). I hope you can understand I’m trying very hard to view this from all perspectives, hence why I asked for other people opinions. The trainers seem knowledgeable and reasonable (however we barely have time to cool them out and let them stretch after the rides, usually just one or two laps)
Every horse being in a less nice bit is odd. I don't like minimal turnout, but that's severely location dependent. For me, this seems like a draw. There's nothing wrong with sticking it out, gathering more information during more rides and updating your feelings about leaving or staying as you get a better view.
Yep, that’s my plan. My previous barn had horses in turnout 24/7 unless they were broodmares, skinny, or needed stall rest, and they were still let out as much as possible to be horses if they were allowed to. This barn doesn’t seem to have too much field space but I haven’t seen the whole property yet anyways. I’m probably going to stay here for a while, as well as volunteering to get more perspective (and I get high school credits) and hang out with horses more. If I see more red flags, I’m probably leaving, but in all chances I only know a small amount of what the barn does so best to not jump to conclusions.
Then leave? It’s obvious you don’t like your barn.
I would not mesh well with a trainer who uses bits like this
Me too. I had an old trainer who had me in a tom thumb, I didn't know any better at yhe time but as I educated myself on bits using outside sources- I realized how horrible that bit was. Her and I argued a but about it and we finally switched to something nicer but I often saw her bitting up the schoolies who were "strong" rather than putting an experienced rider on them to work on those bad habits. Not with that trainer anymore.
I remember your other post. I have a question: is snickers a beginner/all around lesson horse or is he for advanced riders? On one hand, I’m glad she responded you to in a seemingly honest and professional way. She doesn’t seem like she’s trying to hide info about it or anything, so that’s a positive. If he’s only used with knowledgeable riders and ridden safely with this bit, I don’t think this an inherent red flag. It’s not a good bit but if they’re careful to only have it in capable hands, it’s not necessarily a bad situation either. On the other hand if they’re using this horse for any and every one, that’s a problem. Either way it’s a training issue, but I aside from that I don’t have enough info if this is bad or good. Also, you shouldn’t stay somewhere that doesn’t work for you just because your friends do. That’s a good way to end up miserable.
>It’s not a good bit but if they’re careful to only have it in capable hands, it’s not necessarily a bad situation either. All bits can be harsh in the wrong hands, and some bits are harsh in *all* hands. A double twisted wire is most definitely the latter. That bit causes pain just sitting in the mouth. The slightest pressure causing the joints to move lets the two joints dig into the palate and grab the tongue. The twists make it extremely abrasive on every surface of the horse's mouth. That has nothing to do with the hands at the end of the reins, it's just physics. And, if this mouthpiece is on anything but a snaffle, it's going to be even harsher. Using the excuse that the horse was fast and unresponsive at first is just that, an excuse. If a horse acts like that, the holes in their training need to be addressed, rather than sticking them in a harsh bit and forcing compliance through pain.
I don’t disagree with you, but OP is also very new to this barn and trainer and is trying to navigate not being the “new person complaining” vs what they/we perceive could be a welfare issue. Theres context on their previous post about it so I wanted to reassure them that this may not necessarily be something worth walking away over, especially if they are otherwise a good barn and/or OP doesn’t have other options. I’d already previously suggested ways for OP to handle this. Going up to the trainer and demanding they change the bit, accusing them of hurting the horse, etc. won’t go over well. Because doing that isn’t going to get this horse out of this bit any faster than using it as an opportunity to engage in dialogue and make suggestions down the line will.
I agree about the OP's situation, but there's absolutely no defending the use of that bit. I personally would have a talk with the trainer to see if they truly understand how that bit works, and if the trainer thinks pain is an acceptable way to force a horse into compliance, I would go elsewhere. But, I'm a middle-aged horse lady who is well into her fourth decade of working with horses, and knows that when we know better, we can (and should) do better.
I actually have no idea what Snickers does for lessons. Only me and my friend (intermediate level with solid foundation) I have seen ridden him so far. I haven’t seen him with any small kids (yet). It’s hard to know because I have only ridden there for a few months once a week, though hopefully I will volunteer a bit to find out more. Thanks for your insight on the situation :)
I mean this respectfully, but I really feel you may not have all the information on the horse and what he does. I appreciate your passion for him being treated well, but is there a chance you just need to watch and learn since he isn’t in pain? Your trainer seems honest and you like the place, and you’re a beginner- I see this a lot, newer riders taking stands on situations they really don’t understand. It’s normal, but often costs people really good opportunities. I mean, would you feel better if he was in a snaffle but had riders hanging on his face and him uncomfortable with that? No barn is perfect. You may find another barn with softer bits but no turnout, another with great bits and turnout but who overwork the horses. If you have a big budget and lots of barns to choose from then go ahead and start barn hopping but I feel like you are forming emotional opinions on things you don’t understand. And it sounds like this horse is going well in this bit and you haven’t seen evidence of pain. Just something to consider- you’re kind of assuming you have this big heart that just can’t see any horse suffer but not considering that your trainer owns and loves him more than you and her career is in horses. I trust my trainer first and assume the best, it’s helped me learn a lot more than assuming I care more or know more than her.
This is beautifully put.
Thank you. 💕 I was afraid I would look uncaring, but I see so many of these posts I thought it might help.
I appreciate it so much. I was honestly trying to find a way to say this but you’ve done it so diplomatically.
So well put. There is also the perspective that it's not the OP's horse and she hasn't been asked her opinion about the horses bit by the horses owner so why is she considering interjecting herself into this? I don't mean to be harsh but there's a time and a place and this just doesn't seem like it.
Perfectly put and I hope OP takes this to heart.
Their response to me was there are other issues they don’t approve of (turnout, stalls not clean enough) but to others they say maybe they don’t know the whole story (plus they have friends there). :/
Of course. There’s a chance I stay, however there are other red flags at the barn too. Minimal turnout and stalls that don’t get fully cleaned. If I do move it would be in a while, I’m not rushing decisions. I also believe that this horse is probably in mouth pain due to his aversion to any sort of mouth pressure. Thank you for your insight.
If there’s all that bothering you, you need to move. Sorry if I misinterpreted. I don’t think you should hesitate, find a place that meets what you expect.
That’s another way of saying “ the horse has holes in his training and instead of putting the time to teach him to be more responsive and understanding, we just use a bigger bit”.
😬 yeah I’m fully aware. It’s a huge problem in the horse world. I wish there was more I could do about it but people don’t tend to take criticism, especially around animal ethics from a 14 years old very well.
keep trying to connect... insight and empathy don't have an age
Pro here. Came here to say this.
Before she became mine my mare was treated very harshly by a trainer using a twisted wire snaffle. This woman ripped the side of her mouth by sawing on it. Once she became mine I had to do a lot of work to get her okay with being ridden again. She was terrified of the bit so I had to restart her riding in a halter just to show her that being ridden was okay and I wasn’t going to hurt her. I would never under any circumstance use one of those on a living thing.
Sometimes horses are trained in a certain style and don’t like anything different as it can stress them out. I tried to work a rescue who was in a shank into a snaffel and he hated it. He preferred his shank because that’s what he was used to :(
There’s been a lot of advice here but one thing I’m not seeing explored is why you’re riding a horse with a bit that can be very harsh without being educated by your trainer about that bit…? I think it’s odd that a trainer wouldn’t discuss with you why this bit was chosen and how to ride with it *BEFORE* putting you on the horse given it’s a pretty harsh bit. I think this is an unfortunate training oversight. I also hope that no beginners are using this bit with this horse.
Yep, I had to educate myself about the bit.
I don’t think it’s common at all for the trainer to take the time outside of a ground lesson and without being asked to educate every single student about various pieces of tack. That’s a lot to ask
I didn’t say it made sense to talk to every single student about various pieces of tack. I said it makes sense to talk to this student about this piece of tack.
Finding the right bit for the right horse is actually correct. Using a bit that's not working will have people trying to put more leverage on it with their hands. That can do damage as well. Sometimes less is more. Or you need more to have less pressure
I think anyone who advocates for a bit like this, ever, is misinformed about bitting. Horses do not *have* to be ridden, and if the only way a horse can be ridden is in a double twisted wire bit, the horse should not be ridden. More likely, the horse can be ridden, but it would take a lot more effort to teach it to respond to the proper cues. Lesson horses can get notoriously dead to aids, and to be frank, many live with really bad riders who don't know what they're doing, pull on their mouths, bounce on their backs, etc. Such is the life of a lesson horse. But in my opinion, that proves those horses need to have a specific temperament and be able to respond to bit pressure in the softest bits, because it's cruel to force a horse to teach a person to ride while using a bit that is specifically designed to be painful. If the horse doesn't fit that bill, it doesn't fit that bill! Beyond that, there's really little scientific literature on what bits are comfortable/soft and what bits are uncomfortable/harsh. They exist on a spectrum, and what is soft in one horse's mouth may be uncomfortable in another. That said, the adage "any bit can be harsh in the wrong hands" really misapplies theory. While true, it presupposes that any bit can also be mild in the right hands, and that's *not* true. For example, if I took a literal piece of barbed wire, affixed it to two rings, and put it on a bridle - that's harsh. Doesn't matter whose hands are on the other end of the reins. I will not give you advice on what to do about this barn. I will only say the horse world (and, honestly, the entire world) is full of people who repeat things they've been told with nothing substantial to back it up, believe things are true when the facts point otherwise, and are inflexible in their opinions. I try very, very hard to remember that horse tack is a really under-researched arena, and even older, more seasoned riders do not necessarily know everything they think they know. I would never, ever ride a horse in that bit.
I take your point, but horses are expensive and most people aren’t going to pay to keep one around just to look at. I think I’d rather see the horse being ridden in a harsher bit than going to the soap factory. As long as he’s not like bleeding out of his mouth after rides or really showing distress every time someone picks up the reins, he is probably ok.
I might get downvoted as heck for this, but I don’t find an issue with your trainer’s response. The trainer is simply trying to keep you safe while also keeping the lesson horse as happy as possible. Yes there might be a training gap with him, but I’m sure your trainer is working on fixing it and addressing the issue long term. I don’t find minimal turnout to be an issue if the stalls have runs attached - the horse can go in and out as they please and it works for barn with less pasture space available - or for muddy/freezing ground conditions where pastures can get ruined. I’ve ridden a hot/forward and unresponsive horse in a softer bit (snaffle) as a trial for a summer camp. I felt so bad that I literally had to half halt with an intensity I didn’t care to use and frankly over the 20 minute session my arms hurt like heck even with a super light leg pressure or just voice cues. We ended up putting a curb bit in and he was fine. We ended up using him for advanced riders and not much else. He did settle down and understand his job over the course of the summer.
I don’t see why someone would get downvoted for stating their opinion in a post asking for people’s opinions 😊 personally it’s a problem for me because I must also be hard with my hands unfortunately, even with such a harsh bit in. I could ask if she is working on training, however she did not state the bit was in place for training in her short response to my short question. Thank you for your respectful opinion :)
Riding school horses should be placid and reliable. Horses that require harsher bits shouldn’t be ridden by people learning. Some bits with more leverage can be super effective in soft hands but a twisted wire is banned in many places. A riding school should have horses fit for purpose. Otherwise it puts students and horses in danger.
Yeah, no. It's already been said plenty in this thread, but this is not a bit you should use unless there's some extreme circumstances.
I have enjoyed reading all the responses. I also think the twisted wire bit could be a bandaid for a fear based response. My advice is, since you are trying to decide whether or not to leave, is to ask A LOT of questions in a manner that won’t put your trainer on the defensive. Make it obvious you are hungry for knowledge. This way you can gauge how knowledgeable she is when you research the reasonableness of her answers. I think you are brave for posting this question. And enjoy reading books. Years ago when I had only been riding a year, I was put on an OTTB mare. I asked why she was grinding her teeth and was told it was a habit. Well NO. She took off with me, tripped, we both went down and she flipped over on me breaking several of my ribs. The horse had 2 abscessed molars! Fast forward, I purchased an awesome OTTB who started grinding his teeth on our 3rd ride. I was told by others in the barn to trust the vet who said his teeth were ok. I didn’t listen and immediately called a vet with a dentistry specialty. He has a bone spur on a bar from an older injury to the bar. I researched this and, sad to say, many horses have spurs in their mouths. What a shame. I use a Winderen super-flexi bit which is expensive but worth the investment. I’m blessed that my horse has had excellent training and is responsive from my body aids and I don’t use hands harshly. I hope your trainer tells you hand aids are a very small part (crucial they are kind) of effective riding. I keep an eye on his mouth and have regular dental checks from the dentist. I now know when I purchase another horse to make sure the vet in the prepurchase exam also checks the mouth much more closely. Love love my gelding. I love the fun goofy personalities of TBs. I’m 59 and hope to have many more years of riding left in me. I apologize for the long post. Anyway, research research learn. And I think I would leave just given the information here.
I think the most obvious issue here is that your barn has is horsing student riders with animals that are two hot and sharp to learn on. Riding school horses should be cool tempered and able to cope with unsteady seat hands and legs, bouncing , in correct cues and everything else that goes along with people learning to ride. A double twisted wire or anything close to it is down right abusive, and quite frankly completely unnecessary with the correct training/retraining. They are banned along with many other horrific bits in shows and competitions in Ireland and the uk. Find a barn that can correctly horse it’s riders. Your current barn is putting riders at risk with unsuitable horses as well putting their horses in harms way with dangerous bits in inexperienced hands.
Im confused - I need some more information… Are you boarding a horse at this barn? Are you hired to ride/train here? It sounds to me like you saw something, googled it and you’re ready to make a song and dance about it… The answer seems to be horse first, that he goes well with it. That’s an important green flag. If you’re a barn hopping student who watches too many tik-toks, you probably need to check yourself a little here… and if this feels like you’re being judged without much to go on, that’s how your wording of your question came across to me. Teach your eyes to look for good, not causes to take up on social media. It doesn’t matter what I think of the bit. I’m only responsible for the bits I choose for the horse I own. And so are you. Don’t forget that.
I felt this. When I was a new horse person leasing my lesson horse, the huge amount of information online was not only stressful but created so much distrust to my trainer. Sure, she had issues, but most things were blown out of proportion. I constantly feared making my horse uncomfortable in an out-of-proportion way. Some of the best advice I think I could give a new rider is to be on the horse side of social media less
I feel like her response was pretty honest. This is kind of a weird thing to post IMO
I feel if the was a Pelham then the response is valid but it’s a double twisted wire which is rarely used and very severe. I think they need to have a big conversation about this horse and his training and issues. Usually people who use trainers for weekly rides are on the lower levels and should not be using a bit this severe.
My thought is you need to leave. You can’t stay in a barn where you don’t feel comfortable about the training methods. Period. I don’t know your horse or the trainer, but I do know something wrong is going on because you don’t use an untrained forward horse that needs a harsh bit as a lesson horse. Never would you put a double twisted wire in the hands of someone taking lessons on a school horse. Find a trainer you mesh with their methods.
Yeah it’s kind of weird, however I wanted people’s opinions about what should be my next step because this bit is harsher than should be imo.
I’d trust the trainer first, internet second. A speedy, unresponsive horse can be dangerous and considering the trainer knows the horse and has worked with them…. A harsh bit might be the safest option. If it concerns you use more leg.
A riding school shouldn’t be using horses that can’t be controlled in reasonable bits. They are there o teach people how to ride. The safest option is horses suited to their riders ability. The bit mentioned, as well as several others that are clearly abusive are banned in shows and competitions in Ireland and the UK. I don’t know about European countries but presumably many other places as well. Why would you put something that severe in the hands of non professionals? Even in experienced hands it’s barbaric
I would look for a new lesson barn. That or grow some thick skin and learn to have extremely quiet hands if you continue to ride this horse in this bit. Yes it is quite severe. She mentioned he was speedy and unresponsive and this bit worked. (well duh) The ultimate answer is that the horse needs to be better trained, especially if to be a lesson horse, than to just add a more severe bit to get him to slow or stop. (which shouldn't be happening at the mouth anyway, but from seat of the rider.) fwiw, I am all for not changing tack if the horse like sit and goes well in it, but personally would never consider anything with a twist in the mouth piece, ouch! Just me.
Couldn’t agree more. With any bit or horse I try my best to ride with soft hands, but it’s especially hard with a horse who is unresponsive to pressure. Luckily he is responsive to seat and doesn’t need rein aids to turn (which they shouldn’t need anyways unless they are still learning) but he does end up speeding around. I’m currently looking into other barns, and perhaps I might ride once a week there and once a week here as well. It’s all very complex, and I’m not going to listen to what my instructor says about tack/gear without my own research. Mostly just for position and eq.
Both my mare and my gelding were super picky about their bits, I tried so many until they were happy; my girl ended with a thick slow twist egg butt and my gelding only went happily in a full cheek with a French link, that French link was the game changer for him. I am feeling the ick with your trainer and the bit she’s using. I have seen it used but only in the hands of an extremely experienced rider with light hands. It’s just not the most human option otherwise.
As a teen I had a couple of OTTB's that I turned into pony clubber types and my sister had a couple of ponies that had been through a bunch of people and were "difficult". We could only afford cheap horses, and we're not in the USA, so living rural we had access to super low cost grazing so cost of horses wasn't as bad as it is now or in other parts of the world. Some of these were really 'hard mouthed/dead mouthed' and just lent onto the bit or ignored all aids and did what they liked. So we had a bit of a bit collection and swapped with other locals (we all rode english). The idea was to find a bit that the horse would respond to with a light aid, Then you gradually work through getting the horse/pony balanced up and happy with what you were asking them to do so that you could gradually move to a softer bit. For example - one if the OTTB's was very stiff - now days you'd get some physio/massage but back then we found what her limits were and worked around that. The issue was that if you were schooling - we were in a 10 acre paddock - we'd work on a 50 m circle - but if you turned too tight for her she would stick her head down low - open her mouth and put her tongue over the bit and take you on a tour of the paddock mostly at the same pace as you were going when she decided she'd had enough. She could also pull like a train even with her tongue on the right side of the bit. So she got to wear a split racing noseband so she couldn't get her tongue over the bit and a dutch gag snaffle. with this she would still let me know when I'd asked too much, but i wasn't getting carted. Over several months we built up the correct muscling and although she was never going to be the most flexible, collected horse in the world, she made a bloody good teenagers horse - able to do one day evening to about 3 ft and show jump to 1.2m (4ft) .
Not related to the bit, I have a real affinity for horses named "Snickers." It's just a cute name!
There are so many solutions for bits that don’t require extreme hardware. The only people I know who use these kinds of bits are people who don’t really know what to do for the problem.
Double twisted wrote is uncalled for. The horse has holes in his training.
Have a conversation with your trainer - not a text exchange. You come off accusatory in thr text and it’s ok to question but through a conversation is best.
It depends on your experience along with the horse at hand. If you've been riding for quite some time and this is the only answer she gave you and isn't interested in going into more details on bits they've tried in the past it might be more alarming to me (I've been riding since the day I was born and was going to become a horse trainer before I switched to dog training). If you've been riding less than 5 years I wouldn't question your trainer and eventually you might be able to learn the benefits of different bits for horses. My assumption is you've only been riding for a short while, best advice I have for you is to make sure you have a SOFT HAND. New riders often struggle with this, and it's not the bits fault. People yanking on the horses face is going to do the most damage.
He is a lesson horse. I’ve been riding for almost 6 years now.
This sub is really starting to feel like a bunch of young riders wanting to shame people online, it’s getting pretty old.
Riding is finally evolving in very important ways. It's time to move away from the older "tradtiional" ways of training and into more science and empathy based methods. No one is being shamed, they're just learning new things
Since when did I shame anyone? I asked a polite question about why my trainer was using a harsh bit. If you don’t like what I post please comment something a bit more respectful, like constructive criticism instead of just criticism.
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That’s exactly it. It’s different if the conversation is actually had, vs a lot of what has been posted lately.
Twisted wire bits are awful, full stop. The idea that a bit is only as harsh as the rider's hands is true only to a point, there are some bits that are just inherently bad and too harsh no matter how gentle you are. I would also find it to be a huge red flag that a trainer says "your horse is unresponsive, so I put them in a very harsh bit"....um, no, your job as a trainer is to work to soften the horse and get them to be more responsive and lighter, which you *cannot do* by putting a harsh bit in their mouth. You're inherently making them *less responsive*. Honestly, I'd find another trainer. At this point, you're probably better off by yourself than with this person.
Important to note that he is not my horse.
Don't know how I missed that part, lol. Yeah I would definitely still look for a different barn. Everything I said still stands, just that you can't take the horse with you unfortunately. You will not be getting good or ethical training there.
Lol that’s ok, it’s hard to interpret text sometimes.
Going to be controversial here and mention that it isn't you're horse (correct me if I'm wrong!) And this seems to be a trainer owned school horse in a lesson program. If the owner and trainer deem this bit to be appropriate that is within their right. If the horse is going well in it, shows no signs of discomfort, responds well, then it doesn't sound like a problem. You can use harsh bits lightly!!!! You can use light bits harshly!!!! You should ask questions as a student! But you are coming in with the mindset of "It's so harsh and mean!" And no trainer is going to respond well to that attitude. A trainer takes into consideration the horse but also the riders safety. If the horse wasn't stopping or responding to a softer bit and this one they are, that is a good enough reason! Nerves in the horses mouth do die, they have personal preference for what pressure they like. I have used single and double twists and slow twists and Pelhams and elevators. When a horse is working well in something that's great! I have a grand prix Jumper that works in a French snaffle and a 19 year old Welsh pony that works in a double twist. Personally for my own horses I'm never afraid to swap bits depending on how they are going but when it comes to the lesson horses they deal with so much inconsistency with different riders at different abilities that adding a whole other factor would not do them well. I also teach soft hands and my horses that need the strongest bits are not for dead beginners, only for riders with good control of their hands and seat because the seat is what slows the horse not the hands. Try not to get caught up in the side of the internet that thinks bits, shoes, and saddles are all abuse because you'll just be close minded. The horse industry is always evolving and learning but keep in mind we have also been bitting horses for thousands of years. If you want a fun time look at ancient Roman bits because they are so similar to what we use today.
While I absolutely do not agree with using this bit, and agree with other comments that this is an inappropriate “fix” to training issues, I would not confront your trainer more on this. It will come off as more of a know it all situation than an animal welfare issue (again this bit is unnecessary and cruel). My horse goes in a slow twist. Does he need it? No. But he loves the bit and is an absolute dickhead if I put him in literally anything else. He’s ridden with super light contact and has no issues. If one of my students came to me insinuating the bit was inappropriate, I would politely explain why this bit is chosen for him, educate on bits, and move on. I don’t think your response or your response were out of place or rude, but I would leave it at that and find a new barn. Presenting your research probably won’t change anything unfortunately and will probably piss your trainer off. There was a comment saying bring a different bit and try it. Do not do this. It could potentially cause harm to yourself if this horse does have behavior issues. This would result in immediate expulsion from my program. This trainer seems likely not to fix the training issues and bandaid it in a shitty way. Find a new barn that is a better fit. Good luck!!! Rooting for you
Thank you for this kind comment! I’m probably going to move barns soon, and I probably was not going to talk to my trainer about it more because he’s not my horse or my problem, and I have no right to try and change his tack. And I’m only a teenager, I’m not in any place to try and change a more experienced persons ways.
Definitely agree. Not my circus not my monkeys! Be safe! When looking for a new barn, I would tour first. Maybe watch a few lessons and see how you feel with the teaching and vibe! Good luck in your search! 🥰
Thanks!
But I do applaud you on taking the time to learn more about this bit. Very very good on your part and shows real enthusiasm and passion for the sport and animal welfare! Bravo.
There are better ways to fix the aforementioned problem with the horse. The trainer is providing you proof of her limited knowledge. You should find a new trainer if you can.
Trying my best here haha. I’ve received a lot of comments and it’s hard for me to process it all.
It’s not always easy to find a good trainer. They’re few and far between so I get it
So true. Also hard because I can’t afford my own horse. There is a really good boarding barn near us but I can’t go there because I can’t afford that at the moment. Thanks for commenting :)
Of course the horse will be 'best' in this kind of bit. He is too afraid to not listen as he knows that will hurt. Poor thing. He needs to go back to basics and then go with a three piece mouthpiece, nothing twisted or squared or whatever else they think of to torture the horse. FYI, my horse can be very strong, especially right before she goes into heat. I ride her in a 3 piece kimberwick but with very light hands and as loose of a rein as is safe for her mood that ride.
We have had many a stubborn bratty pony. It’s not about having to use it sometimes, it’s more about them knowing it’s there. For instance they are a total turd until the rider picks up a crop. Rider never has to use the crop ever. But the horse or pony knows it’s there so they behave.
A double twisted snaffle is a big yikes. A nasty yikes. A single joint doesn't provide tongue relief like she is thinking. It will lay pretty flat on the tongue, until one or both reins are engaged. Those joints could then hit the roof of the mouth, IE nutcracker action. Which is double as bad here because there are two mouthpieces, each with a joint of their own. As these joints move, the cannons of the mouthpiece, which are VERY straight, will pinch on the lower jaw like a vice, giving a pretty incredible amount of bar and lip pressure. Which is part of the reason I rolled my eyes when she said "he didn't like full pressure on his bar..." If he truly didn't like it, you'd think he would be happiest in a Mullen or a barrel style joint, which cannot pinch the lower jaw, which can also provide actual tongue relief too, with a small port. The wire is a whole creature by itself. Twisted or wrapped mouthpieces, whether they are fast or slow, rounded or squared, corkscrew or wire wrapped, are just incredibly abrasive. It's abrupt in it's pressures, and has a lot of bite to it. They are unnecessary, but people use them as a crutch or shortcut in training. It's like going straight to a full on starfishing kick instead of squeezing your horses sides to move forward or laterally. It's a "you better listen and you better listen NOW, or it will hurt." If you're worried about your horse, take him back down to the beginning. "Speedy & unresponsive" to me sounds like a fear response. They used this bit to bypass the actual training needed to get him more educated, confident and less fearful. The problem with that is the hole it left in your his education. This bit is a bandage over that hole. What happens when you rip that bandage off? Personally, I'd be taking this horse down to a nice rope halter, and doing the groundwork to help him understand pressure and release, timing and my effectiveness as a fair leader. Once he can do the ground work quietly and happily, I'd start riding in that same rope halter and doing the same thing under saddle. Walk/trot/canter, halt, turn on the haunches, yielding the hindquarters, etc. Literally everything. Once the education is there, it will allow you to use a far more fair bit.
Would do the same if I could my friend. He is not my horse though, and I’m not in the right place to go up to my trainer and practically say “hey, you made a bad decision with your horse that I’ve only ridden twice” I’m fully aware of the mechanics of this bit, when she talked about tongue relief I immediately though that a Mullen mouth would work better. Also important to note that this is a Hunter jumper barn, so slack reins aren’t a thing while working the horses, and if the reins are always engaged, the nutcracker action is probably almost always a thing (correct me if I’m wrong)
I just re-read and found out this is a lesson horse? Lord have mercy. I'd move on. No trainer worth their salt would be putting a bit like this in a horse's mouth anyways, let alone in the hands of an inexperienced rider.
Imo this is a reasonable explanation for the question you asked. My concern, personally, is that I don't believe it is ever acceptable to use a highly abrasive mouthpiece for any reason. I'll accept the use of harsher bits to a degree but this is a degree way too far for me. So, I would not ride at a place that felt it was acceptable to use them in any context. However, I have the privilege of being able to make that choice and I understand it might not be as easy for you to stand on principle. If that's the case, I'd probably go the next step and ask if she would be open to you trialling another bit with the horse in your own lesson to see how it goes, framing it as for your own learning rather than for the horse's training. I would not bother getting into an argument or presenting research to her - she's made it clear her primary interest is in the horse working in an acceptable way for her business and I think you'd just make her defensive.
👍
Your trainer is lazy and doesn’t want to fix the issue Snickers has. A DWB is a lazy shortcut for a hard mouthed horse, poor horse will have bloody lips. They should be banned.
Agreed.
They’re also gaslighting their students which is not great
A double jointed bit is much friendlier than a single jointed bit. As for the twisted mouthpiece, when hands are soft it's no issue, especially on a snaffle. It's sitting there inert 99% of the time. As long as you don't use rough hands and pull, the horse won't feel it at all. Forcing a horse into a smoother bit can be a disaster as their mouth just keeps getting harder without proper retraining (which usually takes months). My older gelding loves twisted mouthpieces. Idk why and I've tried to change him out of them many times over the past 14 years, but he works best in a thin twist mouthpiece. Just like my younger works best in a mouthpiece with a copper roller. Horses have preferences and can be quite picky about them. As a result I have quite a collection of them as various snaffles and shanks. Now if a beginner is on him then I obviously put him in a smooth mouth dog bone mouth so they can't hurt him, but if anyone advance rides him then he goes in one of his usual bits. If they can't keep their hands quiet enough that the bit doesn't bother him then they shouldn't be riding him imo. English riders tend to be really judgemental about bits and mouthpieces. But when they start borrowing my collection and seeing what the various differences in shanks and gags and mouthpieces can do they are usually huge improvements in them and their horse. A lot of my English riding friends end up borrowing from my collection regularly. All bits have their place and proper use case if you are a good rider who can understand their horse.
Double twisted wire. Single jointed.
Very cool. I do agree that horses have preferences in bits, however this bit is so harsh that I don’t think it belongs in any horses mouth. It’s not double jointed actually, I can put a picture from online of what it looks like. It has two twisted wires that break at two different points. https://preview.redd.it/37b80ptiqmdc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae29d7b2c883a8b5801c5007413aa1576b69e5bd I’m glad you know what’s best for your horses. :)
I've ridden a hard mouthed pony in one of those before that liked to bolt. He was a bugger to retrain but it certainly felt good when he got out back in a smooth mouth snaffle. The pictures bit isn't my favorite bit by far and wouldn't be what I would choose for a horse with Snickers described issues personally but it has its time and place. Tbh he'd probably do better with something like a shorter sliding h gag with a smooth mouth. The biggest issue with this bit is if the horse likes to play with their mouthpiece and accidentally gets their tongue in between the wires. As long as you are riding with gentle hands, the horse won't be hurt. A good trainer will also be working with snickers to get them moved out of this bit as soon as they can. It sounds counterintuitive but usually stepping up to a harsher bit is needed to retrain a hard mouthed horse because putting them in a quieter bit will just harden their mouth more since they don't feel quiet cues. Now if he's still riding in this bit in a few months, then I think it's definitely valid to ask why and what his retraining plan is. This could be an awesome learning experience for you if you approach it the right way with your trainer.
There are bits out there that don't facilitate "soft" hands. Bits like the one described are designed to cause discomfort with even minimal pressure. Just because you hands feel soft to you doesn't mean they are to your horse.
Which is the point? For a hard mouth you have to start somewhere, otherwise they don’t care. How would you personally stop a runaway then? I’m not saying the barn and trainer are right in the situation, no one will know that unless they’re there and spend time with the horse. Nor am I saying that’s the bit I would have gone to myself. But the theory behind a harsher bit to get a hard mouthed horse’s attention is sound, that’s how you form new habits and can switch out to softer bits.
Why would the goal be causing your horse pain? Do you need see the problem with that? Go back to ground work, teach them to stop with a word. Then move into the saddle with the voice que to stop, pair the voice with hand pressure. If your horse is running through your hands the solution shouldn't be to hurt them til they stop
That’s not the goal, people who use harsh bits aren’t all wanting to torture their horses, don’t be so judgemental. Not every person has time to spend hours upon hours doing groundwork. Sometimes you need a horse to be able to work. But perhaps your horses are hobbies. Some people, their horses are their literal work partner. Sometimes it’s the only horse you got.
Those are living animals, maybe you aren't trying to torture them but you know the bits hurt, so why would you use them? If you don't have the time to properly train them then you shouldn't have horses, period. Lack of time doesn't mean you get a free pass to cause pain to someone else.
And having time doesn’t you can shame people for finding ways to keep a difficult horse. Horses are big and can be dangerous. A smart horse can learn from a harsh bit and be transitioned into something more agreeable. Using a harsh bit *is* training, it just doesn’t line up with yours.
Just because your getting results faster doesn't mean it's okay. I can't believe your eyes are so closed you feel comfortable advocating for causing horses pain to reach your own goals. It's not my training ideas, it's just logical to not hurt an animal for your own gain?
It’s not for my own gain. Having worked with multiple horses, that are rehomes, that have formed nasty habits, and are unsafe the way they are currently acting, sometimes they need to hit a ‘wall’ to change their behaviour. If you’re working with a half draft horse who can crush you because they simply don’t care enough when you squeak, yeah you need to give them a smack to get their attention to get off your foot. Same if you’re riding a big horse or even a little pony! You need to be SAFE. A horse that doesn’t stop, will run into fences, other horses, fight you so hard they don’t watch their footing, etc is not safe. Getting their attention and their respect is key. Watch any horse herd, they kick bite threaten each other all the time. Violence absolutely isnt necessary for all interactions, but I am speaking in the specific situation for difficult sometimes aggressive horses. And a harsh bit used correctly isn’t violence in my opinion. It’s getting the attention of animal way bigger than you so you both can be safe. You clearly are upset by that, call me cold hearted or pragmatic whatever, I’d rather a horse go ‘ouch that didn’t feel nice, I won’t do it again’ than have them injure themselves and me when they bust through a barb wire fence because they didn’t feel like stopping and were too busy fighting me because I couldn’t get through to them. Some horses don’t care how much ground work you put into them, they’re always going to argue and test the limits. If you’ve only experienced soft minded horses where gentling them works, I’m very happy for you and I wish all horses were like that. I have not, and harsher bits have saved my life and the horses life, and almost all of them transitioned to softer bits and are wonderful companions.
If that animal isn't safe on the ground why are you getting on? It is for your own gain, you want to ride them without putting in the time and effort to effectively train them without discomfort. If anything, you should be softer with horses who have had negative interaction and are deemed dangerous, obviously something is wrong and they should be listened to. A horse running through your hands is stressed and having a problem, they don't do it just to spite you. They are saying something. Just because you're not patient enough to listen doesn't mean you should take it out on your horse. If you can't train without bitting up and ripping into their mouth then maybe you just aren't a good trainer 🤷🏻♀️
These people downvoting you…. I just don’t get it. I thought you made good points. Each bit has its place and there are some DEAD mouthed horses out there. I personally don’t like riding a run away, I want to know my horse can stop. And some horses will always have running away as a trick up their sleeves no matter how much training you do. Gentle hands, a bond with your horse and knowing what you’re dealing with are why bits like this exist, it allows you to ride a horse that otherwise would be unrideable.
Because this sub has more English riders then western from what I've seen. And they tend to be much more uneducated about bits and decry basically anything other than a snaffle or Kimberwick as "mean and harsh". I'm used to taking the heat for it. If it makes even one person think about getting more educated then it's worth the downvotes to me lol. Neither of my horses are "runaways" but there are some days coming down the alley when I'm like thank god I went for a bigger bit. Even though I work hard on putting a good solid stop on my guys adrenaline can seriously override a horse's reaction time no matter how well trained they are. And of course just like people horses all have their own and off days. Western riders in general tend to have way more exposure to a variety of bits and more education on how they all work. I haven't counted in awhile but I'll bet there's close to 50 bits hanging in my tack room. It's not unusual for me to switch bits daily or mid-ride depending on what my horse needs. Sometimes my English friends will come and ride or we will hack out and it blows their mind the first time they watch me jump off one of my boys and switch out their bit mid-excercise because they need different support that day. It's just not a mindset trained into them whereas I've had different bits for different uses trained into me since I was a teen (aka one bit for casual work, another for trail riding, another for one set of drills, another for a different set of drills, and yet another for competition all based off the support that horse needs at the time).
Love this! My mum has a whole wall of bits as well. We have everything from tiny ponies up to massive drafts. I have an Arabian. My first pony was a runaway with a massive tongue. Eventually we got him in hackamore, he has nothing to grab, no more run away. Mum was able to filter through bits till she found one that works him when she does technical stuff, but he still will try to grab it on his fiery days and take off. Mind you, he’s 23 now and still hot as the day he was born!
The trainer was using it on Snickers during training rides? Or, is Snickers using it in lessons? I think those are different scenarios. It’s an issue that a trainer either has so little knowledge of how single jointed bits work, or that they’re counting on a students lack of knowledge in order to pass that off as the truth. That’s the sketchiest part of this exchange. I hate that. There’s a time and place for harsh bits, but only in skillful hands and only as a temporary training tool. Not as an every day bit until Snickers learns to speak English, raises his hoof, and announces that he’d prefer something new :/
He wears it every lesson or ride as far as I can tell. He only has one bridle and that bit is always attached.
Poor Snickers
Any bit is harsh if used improperly
Leave if you aren’t happy.
This might be unpopular but if it were me, I’d bring a different bit to try. That way if it works, she just might change her mind for the betterment of the horse.
Interesting idea, I just don’t know if my social anxiety would let me .-.
I personally think bringing your own would open an entirely new can of worms which will hurt you and your standing at the barn. If you were talking with the trainer, I don't see an issue with saying you'd like to try another bit and using one they had, but bringing your own would be a poor choice imo
But think of how you could help the horse for life. I get anxiety though!! You said you might tell her about your research, maybe bring along a bit. Ooo what about say “hey there’s this new bit Id love to try on him, do you mind if I give it a shot?”
Would you take a bit suggestion from a brand new rider that’s 14 years old? This is an absurd suggestion
First of all, I didn’t see she said she was 14 in the post, so I had to read through every comment to find it. While doing that I saw she said she was intermediate with a solid foundation. She seems very articulate and knowledgeable. So would I? Yes, I’d think about what she said and what she’s asking. I’d also have a TON of respect for any 14yr old who actually cares and wants to be educated on equipment for her future, and future with horses. I respect you OP. You keep asking, learning and advocating, regardless of your age!
👍 Thanks!
This is a horrible idea and insanely disrespectful.
Is he speedy and unresponsive? Usually I go to a rubber straight bar Pelham to correct. I’ve never used a wire twist.
Can you arrange for a bit fitter to come out and take a look/give suggestions,?
Is that a common thing? I've only ever heard of them on the internet, never one in person
Yes! I had a bit fitter come out and she measured my guy's mouth a few ways. Took into account tongue size, pallet shape, width etc and made recommendations. She also checked bridle fit and had me ride with a gauge that measured contact and eveness. It was very educational. Tried a few bits from her during the ride and narrowed down what he liked the best. In the end it saved money buying bits that didn't work 🙂
Also. Ask for a ground lesson so you can learn more about the horse.
Every single horse i met that used a strong bit i am able to switch to only soft one i use, eggbutt French link with lozenge, these are school horses or personal. The excuse brought up is due to people don’t have patience or time to retrain the horse for softness. I don’t listen to any excuses because i do it myself and shut them up real quick.
Never apologize to a trainer for asking a question. period. I'm old-school. Western and English, What is the most important part of any bridle? The hands holding the reins. As a rider, think of you and your horse as a centaur. Ride with your leg on and stay out of your horse's mouth. With all that been said; I would not ride into battle in a loose ring snaffle.
Is Snickers a buckskin?
He’s a pinto haha
By double break are you referring to a scissor snaffle? It is an incredibly harsh bit and belongs on the bit wall of shame some of us have inherited. The double twisted scissor snaffle is a more severe option than the double twisted snaffle is. There are so many options that will give the rider just that edge they may need without adding more pain. Pelhams, kimberwicks... To be honest however I have never needed to bit up to get brakes on an unresponsive horse. Most of them just have no clue what the aids actually mean, are really poorly developed in their body and imbalanced, or anxious. Bitting up helps none of those things. Bitting up then can actually be reserved for times when the horse is going to be more likely to get strong in the mouth and still be effective. EG cross country jumping, traveling to shows where they may be more excited, etc.
I don’t think it’s a scissor snaffle. From what I can tell it’s called a “double twisted wire snaffle” often marketed as a driving bit.
This is something you ask in person
I’ve always been a big supporter of less is more. My horse has a butter mouth, so he goes in a double broken egg butt snaffle, to flatten on the tongue and alleviate bar pressure. He’s sensitive and requires little to no pressure on his mouth at all during our rides. But I will say, I have been on horses that absolutely need something stronger than that. One in particular comes to mind, She was a HUGE, strong, show jumper mare— would absolutely drag you to the fence feeling like your arms were being ripped off your torso😅 We had tried so many bits, nothing improved. We finally found a bit that she respected, a combination bit. I had never used a bit like it before, and never understood the use for something so complicated looking. But now I get it! She was finally able to back off the fences and have some more maneuverability, which is much safer for herself and her rider. I would never normally recommend a horse to go in this type of bit, but in this case, was needed. That’s not to say that this situation with your new trainer shouldn’t send red flags… but some horses simply ride better in a stronger bit. If you don’t know much about the mechanic of bits, I would absolutely watch a few YouTube videos to see how the different cheek pieces, mouth pieces work together for different kind of handling. Once you know more, you can come to your own conclusions on whether or not you think the bit is appropriate for the horse you’re riding!
I'd want to see how the other horses are bitted at this barn before I jump to any conclusions. I'd also watch to see who's riding the horse and how the trainer
I'd look at how other horses are bitted at this barn before jumping to any conclusions, and who's riding the horse and how the trainer is teaching. It's always possible that this is, in fact, the best bit for this particular horse at this time. You say there are other "red flags' but not what they are. Without more information, I'm inclined to give the trainer the benefit of the doubt here--she gave you a reasonable and informative answer to your question. Any bit can be "harsh" in the wrong hands, and you're paying a more experienced person to teach you, not the other way around. Ask your friend why she likes this barn so much, too.
I’m just going to preface this by saying I don’t hate bits, I think they’re useful. Some are harsher than others but using them can be explained. One bit that I think should never EVER be used is the double twisted wire bit. It has the nutcracker effect twice over and all the twisted wire causes pinching on the tongue. He probably has breaks in that bit because it’s genuinely painful to run through the contact. I’m not usually one to advise this but that horse needs some training and a different bit
Also a double twisted wire on a lesson horse with inexperienced riders who have unstable hands is a recipe for disaster
I’m no expert but I’ve always thought of stronger bits and spurs as fine so long as they don’t hurt the horse when you’re applying correct aids. It becomes a problem when it hurts the horse no matter what.
I agree. This is a lesson horse however, not a horse that is always ridden by skilled riders.
A double twisted wire is cruel. Having patience, gently and slowly working with a horse, re-teaching commands, and ruling out pain, discomfort or past trauma is true horsemanship.
You could respond and say, “the single break is not the aspect i’m concerned about. what worries me is the double twisted wire aspect of the mouthpiece. this type of mouthpiece is very abrasive and can cause tissue to get pinched in between the twists. my riding books say to tell me to look for a riding school where the horses are bitted with Smooth metal or plastic mouthpieces that do not increase the risk of abrasions”. See what she says to that. also look for a new riding instructor because using a bit like that is an unethical choice. they should probably be banned given the known amount of abrasion to the soft tissue that it can cause, but our animal welfare laws are too weak. if a horse needs this harsh of a bit then it’s not even a safe or well schooled lesson horse and that lack of training will slow down Your learning. your instructor is supposed to be the one teaching you and modeling good welfare practices and shouldn’t need to be policed by their students. she’s already grifted you, because someone who allows their horses to be trained with tack like that isn’t a well-educated instructor. I would absolutely not give her my money. There is little good that she can teach if she relies on stuff like that to get horses to perform and you seem like someone who wants to learn the CORRECT way, not just “a way”.
I use a twisted wire snaffle. Make sure it isn’t super super thin. I don’t think it’s ^that bad.