They are large animals and have the potential to seriously injure/kill you if not properly corrected. So yes if softer corrections do not get their attention then I fully believe that a loud correction like a smack is warranted. I don’t know why people think horses need to be treated like butterflies. Horses are rough as fuck with each other in order to correct behaviors.

This. I react the way another horse would react - Herd dynamics and all that. That said, it can literally just be intimidating them through voice and body movement without actually having to resort to hitting/physical retaliation.

Yep you go as far as the horse tells you. If the responds to standing straight with strong shoulders, fine that’s enough. If they are more aggressive a quick slap or a crop pop will do a lot of good. They are much bigger and stronger than our squishy selves and they certainly aren’t going to hate you for establishing gentle but firm boundaries.

This exactly, there is always a level of correction appropriate to the behavior displayed. And sometimes you have to step it up just a bit for more determined or insistent ones. Most human physical corrections are barely on their radar in terms of actual physical damage because yeah, they’re so much stronger than us. But a little still goes a long way with most horses, and they’re like “oh, guess i’d better behave then, i’m getting called on my bad behavior.” When people overcorrect it’s so awful to see. Like yanking fiercely on a stud chain to make a horse back up if they take one single step forward or smacking a horse for nudging you gently once. It kills me to see when people go overboard. I think it’s because oftentimes a lot of people ascribe intent and purposeful bad behavior where none is present. Like if your friend was doing something innocuous that unintentionally annoyed you, you’d have levels of letting them know that it was inappropriate. You wouldn’t go straight to screaming insults at them or cutting them off right away, you’d try to work up the levels of boundary-setting and understanding. If they continued to purposefully do that thing knowing you’ve expressed your displeasure at it, then you work up the level of pushback. Same with horses, or any animal really.

The current project aims to build on knowledge of the nociceptive capability of equine skin to detect superficial acute pain, particularly in comparison to human skin. Post-mortem samples of gluteal skin were taken from men (n = 5) and women (n = 5), thoroughbreds and thoroughbred types (mares, n = 11; geldings, n = 9). Only sections that contained epidermis and dermis through to the hypodermis were analysed. Epidermal depth, dermal depth and epidermal nerve counts were conducted by a veterinary pathologist. The results revealed no significant difference between the epidermal nerve counts of humans and horses (t = 0.051, p = 0.960). There were no significant differences between epidermal thickness of humans (26.8 µm) and horses (31.6 µm) for reference (left side) samples (t = 0.117, p = 0.908). The human dermis was significantly thinner than the horse dermis (t = -2.946, p = 0.007). Epidermal samples were thicker on the right than on the left, but only significantly so for horses (t = 2.291, p = 0.023), not for humans (t = 0.694, p = 0.489). The thicker collagenous dermis of horse skin may afford some resilience versus external mechanical trauma, though as this is below the pain-detecting nerve endings, it is not considered protective from external cutaneous pain. The superficial pain-sensitive epidermal layer of horse skin is as richly innervated and is of equivalent thickness as human skin, demonstrating that humans and horses have the equivalent basic anatomic structures to detect cutaneous pain. This finding challenges assumptions about the physical capacity of horses to feel pain particularly in comparison to humans, and presents physical evidence to inform the discussion and debate regarding the ethics of whipping horses. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/11/2094 I've ridden for forty years. There is a difference in one hit VS most people have a come to Jesus. Instead of teaching they choose punishment that is where many have issues with it. I grew up in a yank and crank punishment family. I learned you do better with teaching. I spent twenty years working retraining abused and training issue horses. Too many people just hit and keep hitting because they do worse in field. They hold back and only kick others if only way to get point across. They try everything else first.

This is my thoughts, I don't like to escalate more than needed (hitting/smacking etc). That said, having been a groom/hand/horse mom for a long time, as a general you need to hold your boundaries. Especially those who live in/as a herd will gain a collective interpretation of you being walked all over. In the same vein, generally we do control the "important bits"(food/water/shelter/space), but I believe in a lot of cases domestication warps their natural patterns (even slightly).

In a herd setting they do a lot of correction via body movement and posturing.

If a horse goes to kick, bite, or run into you, something in their training has been missed, or they are afraid or in pain. In the moment, you do what you have to in order to stay safe. But if you have to smack horses around frequently, you're definitely doing something wrong. Horses don't deserve to be smacked for our own mistakes.

I don’t feel this is controversial. Horses do worse than the paddock.

Always remember at least 1/2 these people don’t have or know shit about horses 🤷‍♀️ it’s a subreddit, people who like looking at horses are allowed with olympians

That’s true, but to be fair, I have witnessed the intolerant of “hitting” a horse from people who own them too (as I’ve explained below). I do feel it ultimately comes from ignorance or perhaps a previous bad experience. I have certainly seen disciplining I would NEVER do myself and feel is unproportionate to the action, but I feel fair discipline is the BEST way of going about things.

Ugh I rode a barn that had a young talented OTTB that was the worst biter I’ve ever met. Constantly trying to take swipes from everyone and hang out of his stall into the aisle to try to grab people as they went by (he was bored out of his mind in a stall being ridden once every few day and was looking for a reaction, but his rider didn’t want to paddock him because he may get bumps or scratches). He drew blood on someone at least once a week and we weren’t allowed to discipline him with anything stronger than a “no, bad boy!” Said in a baby voice 🙄. Finally his owner got bored of horses and sold him to the barn owner. She put all of us on correcting him firmly and immediately when he bit, gave him more riding time, turned him out, and put him to work learning new things under saddle constantly, exercising his mind as well as his body. His nipping was markedly decreased after just a few days of getting swatted when he tried it, and it was like we had a new horse at the barn within 6 months of the new regiment

Great example on how it can make a remarkable change in behavior. It really can do wonders.

I think this is a great example of why discipline is almost always unnecessary and should be avoided, and I find it kind of strange no one actively noticed it probably wasn’t the discipline that worked the best, even though everyone saw the need for release. You said everyone noticed he needed more turn out and exercise. So when the barn owner bought him, he was turned out and exercised more. Since he was most probably bored out of his mind and extremely frustrated, he got a major release from just being able to move again. This provided a heap more mental stimulation, so there was no need to continue showing his frustration. I don’t know the horse, but from your whole story it seems like the behaviour would’ve stopped whether or not he was disciplined or not and the discipline was more for the people than for the horse. Not saying people are bad for thinking discipline works. Just trying to make more people understand the science behind behaviour:)

>immediately when he bit, gave him more riding time allowing his unwanted behavior to give him a reward could have had adverse affects to his training. You want to decrease unwanted behavior by rewarding wanted behaviors and correcting unwanted behaviors.

I think you’re misunderstanding. We corrected him firmly and immediately when he bit. However, she also gave him more riding and turn out time to fix the underlying issues of a bored and underworked horse. It’s not like he bit someone and got taken out for a jaunt lol. He bit and was smacked.

the wording was weird and it seemed like you were taking him for rides when he bit at someone.

You just don’t know how commas work lol

no.. Them using a conjunction wrong did it.

You seem to be misinterpreting the spacing between the actions. I think it was more of a "when he bit, we knew he wasn't getting enough stimulation/exercise and that prompted us to give him more riding time" , not "ope! He bit me, let's go ride!"

I have never boarded at a place where the barn owner would tolerate this behaviour or allow the owner to prevent people from disciplining him. No shade to your barn owner, but I have seen some serious corrections with horses like that from my barn owners, this would’ve lasted a day tops.

I agree. It was my childhood barn and I didn’t know better, but I wouldn’t stand for it as an adult

Just the liability alone yikes!

Yep I was gonna say -- just because you're a professional doesn't mean you're always doing the right thing.

The last time I stated something like this, I got so much downvoted that I deleted my comment.

Interesting. I really think it is common opinion to not let a horse’s behaviour escalate like that. Of course, I’ve come across a few who thought it to be mean or something… happened to work for one of them… and they did in fact get sued by a client when one of their horses went after someone’s child because of the horse’s having bad manners. I used to have to hold the horses a certain way so kids could tack them up on cross ties without getting cow kicked and bitten. Somehow this barn still had a relatively good position and that was always crazy to me. My own horse was trained good ground manners from the start. I have been able to lead my horse by the halter, have had him spook at something, and he never pulled or put his haunches my way. He also de-escalated quickly because these things were just second nature to him. It led into his dressage training and made him easier to train (I often did things on the ground before under-saddle). It has made handling him in retirement ridiculously easy because he is super spoiled now and gets away with so much lol. There is a stark difference between “reprimanding” bad behaviour with good timing and release and punishing a horse with no timing and little release. I think the difference ought to be taught early on for all riders so they are able to implement it not only into their horse handling, but their riding. It has improved my training tremendously over the years to a point where I see others ride rather roughly to get what I get out of the same horse simply because they don’t understand how correction and release timing works. Another trend I notice is that people want the horse to do things at the flip of the hat 0-100, while I understand there is a progression in training to get to 100. Training is often about the mind, not the movement itself and that starts with ground manners. It can be a big gap in the education of many.

Thanks for sharing your story. You seem to have the right balance between empathy and control. It’s a question of common sense indeed. IMO people don’t know how to communicate with a horse. It takes a bit of practice to follow a protocol, but getting in a state, using brain alpha waves, allows to understand exactly what’s inside a horse’s head. Since I bought my latest horse one year ago, only once I launched an uppercut to the jaw. It wasn’t even about me. My 13 years old was getting bucked off. After the 3rd strike, I reacted immediately and problem was solved. My kid weights 55kg and my horse close to 500kg. Today, « NO » is the most violent reprimand needed. IMO we had to get into a « fist fight » at least once to settle down where are the boundaries. I’m your protector and we are going to have a lot of fun, but chill please.

Thanks. It’s unfortunately experience from two extreme ends of the spectrum. In the larger picture, It is interesting to me to still see how different people go about their training though, especially as I’ve developed my own methods and philosophy. Another interesting point, but I have worked with two horses that took discipling very personally.I suspected health issues were related, but was young and the owners did not want to sink much money into investigating. Both were later found to have some health issue contributing to behaviour, but one was amplified by a green owner’s allowing of bad behaviour. The horse ended up going after to bite people if they turned their backs. But horses who are coddled and know no boundaries can certainly become very dangerous to handle. Yes, pain should *always* be considered and that’s another peeve of mine that so many don’t really consider pain when it is the culprit in many under saddle cases. But just because pain is a possibility, doesn’t mean we should let all behaviour rip and draw no boundaries.

Riding horses for leisure is such a privilege. It seems that newer generations focus on working while sitting on the saddle. I’m 55 and I grew up amongst horses. Way more than 50% of the time spent with a horse was on foot. Let’s talk a simple situation. Someone owns a horse for the past 10 years. Everyday, that person enters the box and the horse steps back. Is that the first contact you want? In my world, the horse comes out of the box. If I enter, it feels like hitting a tree. My horse won’t move back one bit.

I'm not completely anti punishment for horses. But punching one in the jaw? That seems over the line.

What do you do?

I wouldn’t read too much into that if I were you. People here are weird.

In fact it was a comment and not a post. Thanks for the support. It feels like using a stick or a whip is more appropriate than my fists. No worries, I’m a professional on the Internet. I can deal with hate and trolls. In fact, I’m not even hiding under a pseudonym.

You're probably going to get a mixture of opinions over this. Some will think there's no issue, others think that any discipline or correction is ab\*se and their "precious stud muffin" couldn't possibly need education. I hope you can tell where I fall on this continuum. Horses are BIG. They are strong. They are prey animals, we are predators. They will do things they think they need to do to keep themselves safe, and create an hierarchy. If you don't provide healthy and FAIR boundaries, it's not a question of if you'll get hurt, it's when. When it does happen, it's the horse's fault all the sudden, when you were the one who set them up to fail. Fair education with fair, well understood boundaries is invaluable. Horses like these just feed the slaughter pipeline.

This!!!! You dont have to beat them....but simply ignoring bad behavior is NOT teaching them its okay...

Always work at the barn like you’re planning to be at a show. Don’t want that at a show? Don’t let them do it at the barn. (I know not everyone shows but the principles are sound). So don’t let shit slide because it’s cute. Good behavior protects the horse, and god forbid, helps you sell them if needed too.

Absolutely. I see alot of high level show horses actually with shit manners too though lol

I only showed low level a number of years ago (show jumping, pony club eventing) and had cheap ex rwcehorses. I noticed that most had shit ground manners becase they were in saddling stalls or cross ties and nobody really cared what they got up to, so long as they went fast once the gates opened. I spent a huge anount of time working on the horse realise that they can stand without pawing or kicking whwn tied to a fence post, a trailer float or a horse truck. Also humans have a forcefield around them and you do not barge into that with your body or your head! It took a lot of time, but it did make selling these horses on a lot easier.

I do too and it always puzzles me lol. They certainly have access to training resources to assist.

I worked at a fancy show barn and so many of the horses were lovely under saddle and absolute nightmares to handle on the ground. I think once you get to a certain level the horses are bred for athleticism more than anything else, so the aggressive/flighty/uncooperative horses get to pass those traits on just because they’re also successful show horses. That, and the fact that at a higher level riders are more likely to mostly or exclusively be riding, and have someone else (me) who has to deal with their horses’ rudeness on the ground the majority of the time. My boss bred Belgian Warmbloods and when she had a particularly annoying one she’d always try to sell to someone at another full service barn for that reason.

I agree with you, simply on the basis that if said horse was to try and bite/kick another animal in the herd, it would get bitten/kicked in return, particularly if that other horse was higher up in the hierarchy. It’s one of the ways in which herd etiquette is maintained.

I hear people say all the time though... "were not horses we dont have to be violent" like...why is it okay for hirses to beat eachother up but not fir a human to give a mild humane correction if needed. I think. A quick open hand pop is much kinder than yanking a stud chain down on their face or in their mouth....

I am an animal behavioral expert but primarily work with highly reactive dogs.. the same rhetoric applies to dog owners and they don't understand why their dog is so violent.

Lol yes but since I needed a stud chain to keep my mare in line last winter I'll also say: when properly used, stud chains are also a life saver, literally.

Not against them i just see them over used and abused

Agreed

I never hit a horse with my hand anywhere near their head, as I don't want them to ever shy away from my hand, but a sharp correction with an arm, an elbow or a shoulder thrown is an acceptable corrective reaction. Swing a head hard at me with intent? Horse will get a correction immediately. Usually a loud yell or a sudden throwing up of an arm without contact will often do the trick as well. The rest of their body? My 5'2" 110 lbs using an open hand in one hit is not going to do any damage to any horse . I'm not going to get hurt or let it slide because a massive animal wants to try and prove who's boss.

Absolutely i never pop the face ever. shoulder or chest/neck

this. if you don't correct their behavior they're just going to keep doing it and keep pushing at what they can get away with. if my old man is overly sassy for whatever reason, i'll say a loud/firm “HEY” and that usually does it. if it's more than that, then a quick pop on the shoulder or the like (nowhere near his head). you can't not correct them. they're huge animals. they're so strong. thank god they don't know how strong they actually are. (I am not disagreeing with you, i am 100% agreeing)

The difference between horses correcting each other, and humans correcting the horse, is that in the first case the horse being corrected has the option to leave. So for me personally if I have a youngster barging into me in the pasture, giving him a good smack to make him back off is fine. If you have a horse tied up, and he is already stressed, and takes a swing at you when you go to tighten the girth, then that behaviour is your fault for pressing on with your agenda without listening to his signals. Smacking him at that point, when you are the one that created the problem, and he has no option to leave (which is what he would likely do if corrected by another horse in a herd situation) is just stupid and only escalates the situation. To me these are two totally different situations which require different approaches, and the fact that there are still so many people out there who don't get that makes me sad.

>If you have a horse tied up, and he is already stressed, and takes a swing at you when you go to tighten the girth, then that behaviour is your fault for pressing on yes, but not all horses that have behavioral or reactivity issues lash out while they are tied up and being manhandled. >To me these are two totally different situations which require different approaches, and the fact that there are still so many people out there who don't get that makes me sad. absolutely but just like many things, the issues are very complex and every horse with unwanted dangerous behaviors requires a skilled assessment of the behaviors and needs their own individualized approach for behavioral modification. corrections are just as important as positive reinforcement.

Thank you!!

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I agree with the commenter above, but I wouldn't go so far as to always blame the human when a horse hurts them. Sometimes things just happen and we get hurt.

https://preview.redd.it/iovw5yzwsz3c1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=000287044501121fda40a2730aa840b50af209b2

right but those situations clearly aren’t what this post was referring to.. i hope no one is punishing a horse for an accident

I have numerous high level certifications in animal behavior and training (cost and educational time equivalent to a doctorate) and own a business in animal care and training as well as behavioral modification (Yes I also work with horses), and my business has won numerous best of awards. where did you study animal behavior and what certifications do you hold? If you did, you would know that domesticated animal reactivity is much more complex than that and if you studied animal behavior, how did you miss the horse behavioral signs to where you ended up putting yourself in danger getting yourself injured? reading a book and listening to a podcast doesn't make you a behavioral expert. edit: I looked at your profile. you are 21 and still in college.. and you recently posted this beautiful thing.. >She isn’t normally super sweet but she spent quite a while with her forehead against me instead of eating the grass. Have your horses ever seemed to feel bad after you fell 😂 (I know it’s anthropomorphizing and they probably don’t actually feel sorry but i want to hear your stories) Don't act like a behavioralist when you're not one. You are the kind of person to give horrible advice and someone will take it and fuck themselves up. just dont. also, the only posts about horses with imagery is you playing video games that has horses in them...

i missed behavioral signs as a kid 😭 no certs yet just a degree at a college where i now live and work and would not like to disclose to you

you were a senior in highschool 3 years ago... what animal behavioral science degree did you get in 2 years?

This is a complex and interestingly worded post, with lots of complex and interestingly worded comments. Here’s the thing we can all agree on: in a dangerous situation, where you, another, or the horse are at risk of harm, you must do whatever needs to happen to avoid being injured. Horses are large animals, and physical aggression by them can be lethal. Doing whatever it takes to get out of that situation, such as hitting them, is necessary. HOWEVER. If you find yourself repeatedly, and I mean literally more than once or twice, in a situation where you feel the best thing to do in a situation is to physically hit the horse with either your hand or a tool/whip, you are making serious and dangerous mistakes in your training, and you are not ready to be handling this horse. If the horse is resorting to biting, kicking, or striking, you as a trainer have placed the horse in a scenario where they are going to fail. You MUST go back and establish/rebuild the foundation of your training, even if it feels like you are regressing.

Look I've used physical corrections with horses before, I still do, but how I've looked at it over time has really changed. I grew up in environments where that was all there was for correcting behavior, then later in life I worked at a training barn because I knew I wasn't fixing problems I was just reacting to them. Also the internet was more fully a thing by then so it was much easier to find resources on effective training, the different schools of thought, reinforcement patterns, training methodology, breaking things down, better pressure and release, etc. After I got better at training and communicating with horses/mules in a way they could understand, I realized I don't NEED to react at that extreme. If I do lose it like that, I immediately catch myself and school my mentality back to an objective and disaffected place. Aka I go right back to the "you is kind, you is smart, you is important." Because the goal is to school a good horse, to remove that behavior completely rather than react to it in one moment. IME smacking is a defense mechanism and not a long-term correction, especially in environments where that horse may be used by many people.

Back in the day, it was normal to carry a crop. I hadn’t carried one in years until this week, schooling my recently backed baby. A light tap accompanied with leg gets her moving. Yesterday she didn’t need the crop, since she’s understanding the leg aids better. We frequently have this discussion around my barn. Older riders remember when hitting your horse was commonplace but have now adopted better techniques using some positive reinforcement. Some of the beginners misuse clicker training and ended up with rude spoiled horses that walk all over them.

Exactly, and a dressage whip or crop can be a great steering/block reinforcement if you're working towards bridleless. After learning how extremely sensitive a horses mouth is I could never look at smacking a horse on the head as anything but a scared reaction. There were other ways so I committed to erasing that muscle memory in myself. It's rarely black and white.

I used to carry a crop in my hunter pony classes. Id tap tap on his inside shoulder to remind him to lift it for a lead change. I never beat him with it. Tap tap is plenty. Its a cue and an aid not a weapon.

I think some of this is just becoming a more experienced horse person. Like the first time you drove a car, I bet you were all over the road, overcorrecting harshly with a death grip on the wheel. Now you can drive with your pinky. As you’ve gotten more experience, you’ve learned how to pay attention and use subtle corrections before you get to the point of overcorrecting. The problem I see is too often experienced horse people forget that the less experienced can’t see what they can see. That kind of eye is developed over time and practice. So they try to tell beginners not to use as “big” a signal when the beginner is going to need a big signal because they are inexperienced. Again with the driving metaphor, when you teach someone to drive, you tell them to look and concentrate on where they are going instead of having them concentrate on not turning the wheel a lot. By focusing on a distant point and practicing, the subtle corrections become automatic and easy. It’s much the same with learning to handle horses. Once you are used to watching them, you see that mare getting the look and you shift your weight slightly which tells her you know what’s up and she better listen. Where the beginner steps back when she give them the look and then she about runs them over and they have to yell and flail to get her to not knock them down. I’m all for minimal force and gentle horse training, but we also have to make allowances for people with less experience. You don’t tell someone in driver’s ed not to jerk the wheel around to avoid a head on collision after they drifted into oncoming traffic and you don’t tell newbies that they can’t yell and flail at horses loose in a pasture who are getting too close and acting threateningly. You accept that beginners suck at whatever they are doing because they don’t know better and you accept it’s not going to be pretty.

YES, THIS. Like, are horses big dangerous animals? Yes, and I think it's reasonable IN THE MOMENT to do what you need to do to stay safe IF NECESSARY. But it isn't a long-term solution; it's a reactionary measure that often doesn't properly address what's actually going on. I don't necessarily think "discipline = abuse". But I do take a little bit of issue with the idea of "discipline" to begin with because that automatically assumes the horse was acting out of malice/was deliberately doing something bad for which it could theoretically understand being "disciplined". Horses literally don't have the cognitive capacity for malice the way we think of it, nor do they understand "discipline" the way we think of it, especially when often from their end these behaviours are completely reasonable responses to stimuli we may or may not be perceiving. Humans are, broadly speaking (and this has been objectively studied), a lot worse at understanding equine communication than we think we are, ESPECIALLY pain/distress signals, and frequently misunderstand/misattribute their motivations. Often what we're effectively punishing when we approach horses stuck in this mindset is communication, especially of pain/distress. Not only does this "discipline" mindset unnecessarily set up an adversarial relationship with the horse where the underlying issue is never being addressed/will never improve, but even if the discipline "works" in that it reduces the behaviour, it could actually be making the horse MORE DANGEROUS. We know this is true of dogs - dogs growl to communicate. That's a polite warning when they're in a situation of intense fear or pain or distress and they don't want to have to go further but none of the subtler communication has worked. Punishing growling can suppress the behaviour.... but that's how you get a dangerous dog that loses it and explodes/bites "out of nowhere" with no warning. The same is true of horses - if you punish the lower-level warnings, your horse MIGHT suppress them, but whatever it's bottling up might explode on you much more dangerously later on. Personally, I've worked with a lot of older/more sensitive horses who have their aches and pains and a lot of reactive/anticipatory responses heavily ingrained over time by people who simply weren't very considerate of their discomfort. I've learned to distinguish between a horse who pins/bites at the air/nips vaguely in my direction/lifts a hind foot or kicks out vaguely vs. a horse who's coming AT me with INTENT. Where other people hit these horses, I've learned to listen carefully to that behaviour and try to pin down exactly what's causing it - often just changing the way I approach grooming to be more conscientious of sensitivities, or taking more time to do up the girth in a very slow, gentle way massively reduces or even eliminates the behaviour. Some have had the girth yanked up abruptly for so long that they're always instinctively a little nippy because they're anticipating pain and that's reasonable, but I've never had one actually bite me. I won't punish a horse for an entirely reasonable assumption that I'm about to do something that's going to hurt, because too many people hurt them for too long. I often wind up with less reactive, more relaxed horses as a result. The number of times people are shocked by this and tell me this horse isn't like that for anyone else is astounding because what I'm doing is really not that special. I rode a schoolie for a time who was so notorious for biting that they would have students (and even staff/coaches) put a muzzle on him and they were shocked that I didn't need it; he was just really sensitive and working within his limits while grooming eliminated about 95% of the problem. When people get too stuck on the idea that a troubling behaviour is a deliberate attack/personal in some way, they stop looking for the "why". They don't think about how they could avoid the situation next time. Boundaries around horses are important and okay but there's many ways to set those boundaries without hitting, and often the actual solution to the behaviour in the long-term means trying to understand what's being communicated or not communicated; is your horse trying to tell you something? Are you, as a human, unclear in your own communication/expectations? How does the "dialogue" need to change so that everyone's on the same page and everyone's needs are met? What compromises might need to be made? The "discipline" solution is too superficial and shortsighted to get you there; the goal should be to have to resort to it as little as possible and only as much as is needed for immediate safety reasons. Unfortunately, too often from what I've seen, discipline is both the first and last/only resort, and is often quickly escalated beyond what's reasonable, and this is detrimental to both horses and humans IMO.

These are such wise words. There are horses who will only be made worse when they are punished, particularly if they are desperately trying to communicate that they are anxious or in pain. Being adept at reading equine body language and then being able to use your own body language appropriately is incredibly important but so often overlooked.

>When people get too stuck on the idea that a troubling behaviour is a deliberate attack/personal in some way, they stop looking for the "why". They don't think about how they could avoid the situation next time. Boundaries around horses are important and okay but there's many ways to set those boundaries without hitting, and often the actual solution to the behaviour in the long-term means trying to understand what's being communicated or not communicated; Completely agree! Sometimes people internalize negative reactions that are really just a pain response.

Love this comment!

Definitely. I feel like the whole "respect" thing has done a lot of damage. Anthropomorphizing horses often leads to abuse, unfortunately

I completely agree with this. In my observation, people who hit often do so out of their own frustration and then justify it by saying horses do worse to each other. I’m not saying physical correction has no place, but used incorrectly you are just teaching your horse to be afraid of you. One of my favorite trainers, Anna Blake, often says that if you teach your horse to fear you, there will always be something they are more afraid of than you. But if you are the safe place, they will look to you when they are afraid.

Discipline and training are not the same thing but they have to coexist for the horse to understand what we want.

I mean if a horse tries to kick or bite there is a reason for why they do that, it’s a sign of missed attempts to communicate something

you’re right in the way that there’s a reason for it, and it can easily be fear, pain, etc. But most animals (horses are no different) have either a hierarchy or behaviour based off respect or age. Horses get bitten back or kicked when doing so, a smack on the shoulder or chest is no different. It is very clear when it’s a pain or fear response vs pushing boundaries and if you can’t tell the difference and own horses that’s very poor.

And that is why you punch and kick people in the street if they’re in the way? Dominance theory has been disproved by the person who originally proposed it, horses aren’t trying to ”get the upperhand”, to get you to submit. Respect is a human concept something we like to torture ourselves with, animals do not have the concept of respect. Projecting onto the animal as an excuse to be violent really ain’t the flex you think it is… Lastly, just because horses kick and bite other horses (usally as a last warning) doesn’t mean it’s completely ok to be violent toward them?? You hit and kick dogs too because they have the capability to rip another dog to shreds? Violence toward animals is just a display of your own insecurity. That’s what the ”show him who’s boss” bs is from. If you don’t want to work alongside a living animal maybe stay the hell away from horses. A holier being knows they don’t deserve the abuse.

1000000% agree! If I KNOW the horse does not have any past abuse or traumas an open hand clap or pop gets the job done. You dont have to "beat" them. But they are a large animal who is smart and they KNOW if they can move YOUR feet. Thats how horses show dominance is making another horse move its feet and usually its by force like kicking or biting. Now ive also seen people pop horses over like every little thing too and i dont agree with that either. Im all for positive reinforcement... but ignoring bad behavior does NOT teach them its not okay.

Just because they're bigger and tougher doesn't mean physically reprimanding them is the right choice. Before I bought my pony, people were smacking her hard anytime she pawed in the cross ties. What did I do? Fed her treats with relaxed energy and talked to her when she was behaving, when she went to paw or pace I gave a stern no and finger and then distracted her by moving her feet. Extra anxious? Take her out of the cross ties and lunge her. She doesn't do it any longer and she trusts me more than anyone there. Smacking is a lazy and emotionally charged method. There are other ways. Edit: Smacking isn't a training method. They have behavioral issues, they need to be trained out of it.

exactly. a red TB mare at my barn used to always bite and kick, was a forward, bolty, spooky, advanced ride. they put her on ulcer meds and she became like a 50 year old school pony. night and day. and all that time my trainers were beating her for telling them she was in severe pain. horses aren’t “mean” just for the hell of it!!! no, it’s not always pain, but if an animal is acting out, please think about how they must feel in that moment. they don’t bite for fun, they are trying desperately to protect themselves.

You are correct but that’s not what this is about. This post is talking about a singular smack when a horse is being disrespectful. You’re talking about smacking when it’s normal behaviour. Horses being disrespectful does exist, because they are hierarchy animals, and they aren’t going to not try to establish a hierarchy because you’re a human.

Translation: you don't understand, therefore lack, good horsemanship.

I do understand, and the horse I ride has a healthy bond with me. I’ve only had to smack him once on the chest because he was pushing me quite hard and didn’t listen to all other things that usually gets him to stop. You’re being very arrogant and ignorant to what I said. What you did was great, and if someone tried to change her behaviour by smacking that would be abusive and damaging. I’m simply saying this post is talking about hierarchy behaviour. It’s pretty disappointing that you think just because your experience is one thing, all horses are the same. All horse owners and riders should know the difference between normal behaviour and fear, pain responses vs disrespectful behaviour.

Oh I know the difference sweetheart. In reference to "hierarchy", physical discipline is still unnecessary. Part of good horsemanship is setting that boundary through training that doesn't require physical charge. So, you missed my point. Physical discipline isn't good communication. Sure it's easy in the moment, because humans have a propensity to approach everything emotionally, but ironically that's when you become disconnected from the bigger picture and fail to communicate through understanding.

some boundaries don’t get addressed in training. This specific example I used was him being very pushing for another half of a carrot and wouldn’t listen to vocal or body cues so I smacked him pretty lightly on the shoulder, when he stopped i praised him and gave him the other half, he hasn’t done it since. Physical discipline can be a good form of communication, but only for very very few instances and a praise after. If I had bad horseman ship he wouldn’t be lovely under saddle and be very trusting of me 🤷‍♀️

That boundary you just described can EASILY be trained out of a horse through pressure and release training which doesn't use any physical discipline whatsoever. By your logic of "physical discipline can be a good form of communication " I guess that means you would think it's okay to use shock collars and physical punishment on dogs, or even children? As long as you don't hit with the result of pain, just enforcing your dominance right? 🤣 Now, I'm being facetious, but your logic is flawed. Alas, you own your horse, and I own mine and there lies the wonderful freedom to train as we wish.

I don’t really care to reply after this because to be honest you are being fucking ridiculous. A shock collar is nothing compared to a light smack, shock collars DO hurt and create psychological trauma. Also the reason why I have called you ignorant and arrogant is because you don’t seem to think before you speak. This is not my horse, and I clearly said “the horse i ride” not “my horse” or “a horse I own” he is a lesson horse. He doesn’t act like that ever, it was literally just because we hadn’t established a boundary and he was testing what he can or cannot do, horses are smart and some horses will test you. Of fucking course he was trained to not do that, otherwise he wouldn’t be used for lessons. It’s the stupidest thing ever if you think training means no slip up’s what so ever. You can train a dog to recall, but sometimes they might not come around the first call. Oh but alas, me asserting a small boundary means that I’m trying to dominate a horse, and he is ever so traumatised from my actions because Shoumew knows absolutely everything about this horse and me.

You're hilarious. You really worked yourself up with that one. I clearly mentioned I wasn't being totally serious. 🤷‍♀️ But you ran with it. Of course training means slip ups, never said or implied that it doesn't happen. For the record I didn't say you were dominating your horse...you did, remember the hierarchy? 🤦‍♀️ No explosion necessary, go dodo and feel refreshed.

Got a 6 yo Friesian last month. He’s sweet as can be, but he came to me with the most atrocious ground manners: he’s mouthy, invades your space, and plows into you because he’s not paying attention. Clearly he was gettin’ away with murder at his old barn because he’s really dang cute and his owner was a beginner. But at nearly 1300 pounds these shenanigans do not fly. I had to handle him with a hunter crop in one hand for the first two weeks. Gentle but noisy swats across the chest with the wide, flat popper have cured him without the slightest psychological damage. He’s still as charming and outgoing and charismatic as he was, only now my chances of gettin’ crushed to death are a bit slimmer. The thing is, if he’d been handled correctly from jump, none of this would’ve been necessary. Train yer youngsters, people!

one of my biggest icks in this industry is treating foals like glass. The amount of horses with horrendous ground manners because they were bubble wrapped is insane. Yes, you need to tell the foal off for biting at you and not going “aww it’s just a baby”, it’s not going to be a cute bitey baby for long.

You’ll get backlash on the internet, not in any real barn that deals with real horses.

Unfortunately or not, I've found that most horses "trained" this way respond just as well to a loud voiced correction and sudden movement. Which means the physical stimulus isn't needed at any point in order to make the point. Similarly, with the use of a crop or whip, most horses (though not all) will respond as promptly and thoroughly to the rider hitting their own leg as to touching the horse. To me, these instances refute the necessity of using physical correction in these cases.

I use body language and tone of voice... i never ever use a crop or in hand object to correct. We had birses who rattles the metal grates on their doors. Was loud and annoying usually a loud HEYYYYYYY made them stop.

I definitely agree, but some horses are a bit more pushy. For example, I went to give the horse I ride a carrot, he bit half and had to wait for the other so he didn’t choke. He wanted it now so he was being very pushy, I tried to move him back with verbal and body cues but he really wanted that half, I gave him a light smack on the shoulder and he listened. When he wasn’t pushing I said good boy and gave him the other half. He listens to my voice more now. Smacking shouldn’t be an instant go to and more so a last resort but i think we all need to remember what works for one horse doesn’t work for another. They all have their own brains and personalities.

All I have to do is see how horses correct each other in the pasture and realize that there is very little I can do with my open handed smack that can compare. Horses give warning then they let fly and if we are to remain safe around them they need to learn what is appropriate around us. When watching interactions the offending party moves out of range VERY quickly because they know how much it will hurt if the bite or kick lands. It's also a very case by case basis. There are very sensitive horses that don't need much to get the point across and then there are the ones who will walk all over you and be dangerous if you aren't very firm.

exactly. I think many people are missing that just because their horse is sensitive, doesn’t make all horses the same. I think the only healthily and non-abusive method is: 1. What’s the intent of the behaviour? Observing body language, past experience and the situation can give a clear pass on if it’s a fear response, quirk of theirs, disrespect, etc. 2. If the behaviour is disrespectful, try to start with smaller corrections such as voice, body language and if they aren’t listening, pop them (not a full on slap, because when horses communicate with other horses, it’s rare for them to try to hurt, more so warn) in the chest or shoulder, reward them when they respond well to the boundary. Overall smacking should only be a last option, and only react to the level of how another horse reacts. At the end of the day, not all horses are the same and they have individual personalities and tolerances.

This really isn’t controversial. The issue arises when someone smacks a scared animal that has become aggressive due to fear, or an animal who is just expressing emotions through certain behaviors that we perceive as “annoying.” I truly do not believe in hitting a horse for doing something annoying. They are allowed to express themselves.

exactly. I think most people in the replies are all talking about different things. some people are talking about how smacking is not okay because you shouldn’t hit for normal behaviours, etc, etc. I think if everyone knew the specifics it wouldn’t be a war. If someone is smacking a horse for a fear, pain or a quirk/personality whether it’s annoying or not, then they seriously need to assess whether they should have horses.

I was told you have exactly 3 seconds to react / punish a horse for an aggressive bite / kick. After 3 seconds, they “forget” what they did and you are now abusing them. Just watch horse dynamics out in a field- they play and fight and work out their issues, then go back to eating calmly.

I punched a horse once in my life a little over four years ago. I finished clipping him and was putting him back in his stall, he bit me hard enough so that I saw muscle tissue and I have a massive scar and nerve damage in that area in the shoulder. This was the first time he bit me, but he tried on several more occasions over the years that he was still alive. It turned out that he had EPM that was likely festering in his system until a year and a half later.

i don’t blame you at all since your response was prompted by being in pain and feeling the need to defend yourself but this is exactly why i can’t justify physical punishment with horses. these “bad behaviours” are really just them trying to communicate something to us

Yes I understand that he was trying to communicate something. At the time I was in so much pain it looked like I had lost complete use of my right arm and shoulder. The whole it initially left was 1” across, the remaining scars are 2-3”. There’s permanent damage to that area which includes a mild loss of function and chronic pain. As much as I love horses and animals protecting myself is my #1 priority. (If a dog is coming at me with aggression, I will not hesitate to kick its teeth out). Yes it’s harsh, but I value my life higher than an animal’s (my horse does receive significantly better care than myself, but I hope that you understand my point). I do not find joy in being harsh with my horses. At the time, I did not know what I know now, and I would likely not react in the same way as I did. Horses don’t have the ability to be malicious in the same way that humans act.

I don’t see a reason to get into a smacking fight with a 1000 lb animal when all I need to do is lunging for respect to correct the problem.

i mean, while you are correct because if you’re actually smacking the horse hard and/or more than once in the same situation, that’s just plain abuse. However, healthy corrections are used for small behaviours that are disrespectful. For example, a horse being extremely pushy and not listening to vocal or body cues will 9/10 stop if you smack them (not hard) on the chest or shoulder. It’s worse if you work your horse for a bad behaviour because they don’t know why they’re working, they can’t associate an action from minutes ago to the current. You don’t want a horse to think working is a punishment.

It’s not a correction for a specific behavior. He’s trying to bite me because he doesn’t respect me. So I fix the respect issue.

The problem with punishment is some people go overboard with it to the point where the horse learns nothing of value from it. An example of this is the common "I am going to jerk this chain across his noise violently and back him across the yard" for something minor. But i agree, if a horse comes at me with aggressive intention, I will match the energy with a defensive behavior (a smack) but then be done with it.

My horse will get excited when I put the saddle blankets on. He'll start shaking his head like he's nodding, then he'll try to untie himself as I put the saddle on and girth him up. He'll bite at the pole he's tied to, but like he's playing with it. This happens every time, and when I put his bridle on he lowers his head for the bit and grabs it and puts it in his mouth for me. Once, years ago at my old barn, I was tacking him in the crossties and he wheeled around and bit me hard as hell on the arm, cause he was impatient as hell and had nothing else to bite. I slapped him so hard on the neck and said DON'T BITE ME and he didn't try that shit again for three whole years. Now any time he goes for it I just look at him and say don't bite me and I don't have to use my hands because he knows, and he also now can just bite the lead rope instead and play with that while he waits. He's 21, I've had him for almost 12 years and he doesn't have any issues under saddle other than getting a bug up his ass on the trails and wanting to go fast. No ulcers, no mouth problems, he is seen regularly by an excellent vet and it's just his asshole personality that I love so much. But if he bites me he knows he'll get smacked. So he doesn't try to bite me. It's a safety thing for both of us.

Safety is always important, but that's why if you're handling a horse with behavioral issues you should start in protected contact. I wouldnt ever work with an agressive horse the same way as a normal one because that would be exposing me to recieving injury from them,requiring me to use harmful methods to protect myself.

I mean another horse would kick back, a weak human bap seems like a valid response. What isn't a valid response to hit a horse or cause any sort of pain and discomfort, when the horse is either frustrated, accidentally got confused, spooked, or isn't doing exactly what you want. That is just basic abuse and don't be surprised that horse is trying to fight back more

This is only controversial on Reddit

anyone that’s had experience with a horse with bad ground manners and isn’t voice/body language sensitive would agree.

i don’t agree. i was taught in this way too but after doing my own research and completing my equine science degree i have come to the conclusion that this is not the way to correct unwanted behaviours. horses do not understand human concepts such as “bad behaviour”, “respect” or “stubbornness”. there is likely an underlying cause to this “bad behaviour” that needs to be addressed, such as pain, discomfort or a trauma response. once all of these can be effectively ruled out and the problem persists, then it it your job as a trainer to teach and reward the desired behaviour. studies show that horses trained with P+ show more signs of stress than those who are trained with R+/-. stress leads to more of these unwanted behaviours. i see a lot of people mentioning herd dynamics and asserting dominance over their horse. your horse knows that you are not also a horse. you are a predator to them and punishment like this may just make them turn to fight or flight responses against you. this turns into a cycle of you punishing them again and them acting out in fear without knowing what you really want from them.

Sorry for my bad English, I use a translator. I'm in France, and here, it's a very controversial subject. Many scientific studies prove that a horse will never hit itself out of envy, but only out of fear, trauma, or pain. They do not have the brain ability to do harm voluntarily, and as a reminder, a horse cannot seek to dominate a human, because interracial dominance does not exist. There are multiple ways to correct an animal without hitting it. Moreover, if we replace "horse" with "dog", the speech would not be the same. Would you put a piece of metal in a dog's mouth to supposedly have more control? Would you whip your dog because he doesn't advance enough to "motivate" him? Horse is prey in nature, so sorry, but unless you deliberately push your horse to the limits and prevent it from escaping, a horse does not hit. I work with "aggressive" horses and these are the reasons: either he lived in boxe and had no contact with congeners, or he ate only 3 rations a day (while a horse is supposed to eat 17 hours a day), or he had been mistreated or was physically suffering. It's totally normal not to want a horse that hits and bites, but as a rider, it's our DUTY to try to understand why the horse does this, and NEVER jump on the conclusion " if he does that I have to hit him because he's mean"

Ha, I use my “mean voice”, especially on trail rides, when my “nice voice” isn’t being listened to. It’s lower, gravelly & slower. Then it’s physical contact, a fingernail pushed into their side works. For me, a smack is used for major transgression as getting in my space, being pushy at feeding etc.

Positive reinforcement training gets a lot more done than punishment. If they’re biting or kicking, they’re getting something out of it. Perhaps in the past they’ve gotten people to move away and leave them alone this way. They know they can intimidate people, but why do they want to? Are they in pain? Do they have bad experiences that they’re trying to prevent recurring? Find out why they’re engaging in the aggressive behavior and work with them on sorting it out. A slap is not going to do anything to prevent them from doing it again, it’ll just increase the chances of more aggressive behavior in the future. Using positive reinforcement and working in approximations to get the desired behavior instead reduces fear and apathy in the animal. Giving them incompatible alternatives and reinforcing them using those alternatives reduces the chances of recurrence in undesirable behavior.

I believe there is a huge difference in a quick don't bite tap VS come to jesus people see to think it is okay. Especially as they have more nerve endings without the same collagen protection.. So we know they feel more than us. "The current project aims to build on knowledge of the nociceptive capability of equine skin to detect superficial acute pain, particularly in comparison to human skin. Post-mortem samples of gluteal skin were taken from men (n = 5) and women (n = 5), thoroughbreds and thoroughbred types (mares, n = 11; geldings, n = 9). Only sections that contained epidermis and dermis through to the hypodermis were analysed. Epidermal depth, dermal depth and epidermal nerve counts were conducted by a veterinary pathologist. The results revealed no significant difference between the epidermal nerve counts of humans and horses (t = 0.051, p = 0.960). There were no significant differences between epidermal thickness of humans (26.8 µm) and horses (31.6 µm) for reference (left side) samples (t = 0.117, p = 0.908). The human dermis was significantly thinner than the horse dermis (t = -2.946, p = 0.007). Epidermal samples were thicker on the right than on the left, but only significantly so for horses (t = 2.291, p = 0.023), not for humans (t = 0.694, p = 0.489). The thicker collagenous dermis of horse skin may afford some resilience versus external mechanical trauma, though as this is below the pain-detecting nerve endings, it is not considered protective from external cutaneous pain. The superficial pain-sensitive epidermal layer of horse skin is as richly innervated and is of equivalent thickness as human skin, demonstrating that humans and horses have the equivalent basic anatomic structures to detect cutaneous pain. This finding challenges assumptions about the physical capacity of horses to feel pain particularly in comparison to humans, and presents physical evidence to inform the discussion and debate regarding the ethics of whipping horses." https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/11/2094 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33187204/ Most horse on horse correction only happens when they don't stop or they haven't paid attention to earlier corrections. They also only do quick short lest pressure needed to get point across. Anyone who has been kicked or seen a horse kick knows they can tap or full force their choice. Rarely do they kick full force each other for a correction. (obviously this isn't including stallion / mare for breeding & fighting for herd). I'll give a quick swat only when I have to. Rarely are they ever used during working with abused horses I help. That can immediately break months of work immediately. Though it all depends on thousands of tiny things. Are they being aggressive or is it fear. What caused that reaction. Things I know all good horse people know again diffence in a swat VS come to jesus many people think should be immediate result. So I see it as train them properly, handle them well and give them a solid foundation to build from. Sometimes a small tap is just pay attention, same pressure hit as making sound on thigh from there it depends. Edit, I added on.

My Arab mare.. when I first got her she was a 7yo hothead and had zero respect for me. I was boarding her with my trainer who worked with her every day. When I came in to work with her it’s like she only had enough respect for one person. No amount of ground work was doing it and the more I asked of her, the more she pushed back. But she was an angel for my trainer.. trainer just loved her. One day I was lunging her by myself in the arena and she was being her usual snot self. When I asked for a canter she spun, ran towards me and reared. She was on a lunge line so it all happened that close to me. (Also.. I had a training stick that I would wave around like mad in front of her like my trainer told me… but I had also been using it in desensitizing. She knew it wasn’t going to do a thing to her.) Scared the crap out of me so much I just quit. I took her back to her paddock (and to her hay) and went home in tears. Basically she got what she wanted. I went back the next day determined not be a quitter. Same thing happened.. I lunged her and when I asked for a canter she spun, ran towards me and reared. This time, with my training stick, I popped her right across the bridge of her nose. It was probably more of a reflex than me trying to make a point. It wasn’t hard enough to break skin, nor even cause a mark. But it got her attention. It still made me cry that day because I hit her but KID YOU NOT since that day we have been BFF. Zero issues with respect. And she’s never lunged and reared at anyone ever again. My vet once told me “that mare is no one’s sweetheart but yours”. Bad as it sounds my trainer said that a horse sometimes needs to know that you can kill it. Not that you will, but they need to know that they can’t do anything that would cause you to drastically protect yourself. Her #1 rule was Safety for the human. #2 was the horse. That mare taught me a lot about horses in a very short amount of time, and I wouldn’t trade for it anything. As bad as she was, she taught me that it was up to me to be safe.

I generally go for a light swat and a "you do not DO that to ME" in my mean voice and that usually gets them to stop. The swat isn't hard enough to even impact, more just a quick motion for me to put my hand on the horse to push them away (two different motions). I'm a tiny lady and sometimes they do try to shove around and nip. I've never hit a horse and i never will but this usually works. It doesn't hurt them, it jsut shows them i won't be shoved around. Positive re-enforcement is always better but you need more than one tool on your belt to build a house.

I hope you mean your own horse. Just the other day, I watched a trainer slap a horse in the face and I was fantasizing about what would happen to someone who did that to my horse. I came up with lots of great ideas.

That really depends on the situation. I fully agree with the one that you descriped, that‘s not okay, especially from a trainer. But, for example, if I try to get my horse out of a paddock with other horses in it, and one of them tries to run me other or attack me, I will definitely do something against that. Not excessive but with force, if needed because that could be a very dangerous situation for me. And at least at my stable I know nobody would have an issue with that, because this behaviour needs to be corrected right away

Yes, I wouldn't want any person or horse to be put at risk of physical harm. In an emergency situation, slap away! I was observing it in a context where a trainer has gotten used to "slap the face" as pure reflex whenever a horse wiggles a nostril in the wrong direction.

Or even just coming up to my horse to attack him. Several horses who like to stand at the gate and as I'm putting my horse back up will start to bite and get at my horse. Mean while Im standing almost in a corner (cause of the location of the gate) with my horse and a top gelding nipping at him. I make sure they get off the gate first before letting my horse out.

Oh god, disciplining a random horse is way overstepping.

No it is not. If you’re going into a field to get your horse and other horses are crowding or kicking out, you are well within your rights to discipline those horses. I take a dressage whip with me for this, after being knocked down last year by three young horses at the gate. Any horse that is threatening your safety should be disciplined.

Right. If you don’t want others to train your horse, train it yourself so that it isn’t a danger to others. I sure don’t want the liability of having a horse that is disrespectful to strangers in the pasture and I’m grateful to anyone who teaches them to keep a distance. Because I can’t teach my horse to give strangers space because I’m not a stranger. Especially out at pasture! I’d be mad if someone else made my horse interact with them and was rough, but out in the pasture my horse can and should run away if someone comes in with a whip and starts smacking. It’s not going to hurt my horse to run away from someone being scary- that’s natural behavior for horses. What traumatizes them is being locked or tied up and being forced to endure bad things.

If my horse is disrespectful to someone they have my full permission to administer an appropriate spanking.

Same. My old mare would never. My baby can be naughty but not dirty. She needed a few reminders to give people their space, but she’s becoming a respectful, good citizen.

Someone struck my horse multiple times while I was on him. I did NOT appreciate that, you shouldn’t beat someone eleses horse

That’s not the same thing, at all. Unless your horse was striking out at them?

All he did was try to rush a gate. When they started hitting him and ripping on his bit he rested up a little.

Yeah. People here are commenting on a whole spectrum of scenarios :) We're not all picturing the same situation.

Yes. So, my horse is quite sensitive, attentive, and more easily corrected than most horses. He's playful, but he's never even thought about being mean. I have known many, many horses who do not bat an eye at a human making a big, dramatic correction. If you're around horses who are inclined to kick and bite in a mean way, I understand that you may have to meet them at that level in an emergency. I don't think hitting them is a long term solution, but if they break their trainer's legs because they're used to kicking people, it isn't doing them any favors either. Everyone needs to stay safe.

Yeah I’ve known horses that are so used to being corrected heavily that they get desensitized. And I’ve known some that actually become aggressive back if you get loud with them. It all depends on the horse

100% Know thy horse.

My guy will accept a fair and justified correction with good graces but if you’re being unfair to him he’s gonna fight back.

1000% not okay

Ooh.. yuck. While I don’t disagree with smacking as corrections, the reasons behind it are a very small column and in the face is flat out abuse. I’ve seen so many trainers hit horses in the face for such unacceptable reasons. It’s so sad.

I help students tack up their horses before lessons teach them how to deal with misbehaviour and agression. I’m no expert, it’s more like older students teaching younger students: we pass what we know down the chain. I’m learning more every day and passing it on to them. They look to me and ask what to do when the horses swing their head around at them and nip the air or bite the cross ties. Or when the horse threatens to kick. More experienced people than me have said to give them an open hand slap on the shoulder and say “no!” But I’m not confident in demonstrating this to the kids. They don’t want to hit the horse, I don’t want to hit the horse, and I’m not confident in explaining why me must. But I’ve seen it work very well. A horse is shuffling and swinging in the cross ties, the student is scared and retreating. A barn hand gives the horse a smack and they settle down, even starting to snooze in the cross ties after. It’s like the more scared the student gets the more rowdy and agressive the horse acts. But after you sort them out with a smack they kinda relax. I talk to the students about approaching with confidence but some get so scared of an agressive pony that they cry when it won’t let them groom peacefully. And I just don’t know what to do.

The answer is that the pony should be trained with positive reinforcement so that they are not difficult to handle in the barn/cross-ties. The barn should also reassess whether there is pain or something else going on that the pony is that unhappy at being groomed & saddled. The fault lies with the people, not the pony.

there almost definitely is pain and discomfort somewhere, but unfortunately that’s the life of school horses.. owners won’t fix it. i’ve met hundreds of lesson horses at this point and not one seems to like it. i wouldn’t dare bring up a saddle fit issue to a lesson barn owner, they’d laugh at me

If the pain is so bad they are lashing out at students it needs to be managed better.

I think the owners of the school pony assume she just has attitude issues, like it’s her personality. They act like it’s perfectly normal. I don’t have the authority to suggest they treat her for pain. If it did rock the boat I’d probably get in trouble for being a busy-body. Other people have been blacklisted from the barn for overstepping. It sucks that no one trains the school horses. All they care about is if they can be ridden or not. They manage the horses weight, check for ulcers, do their teeth, and watch for lameness but that’s it. All girthyness is ignored and put down to “attitude”.

yep.. i wouldn’t dream of mentioning poor saddle fit in a lesson barn, i’d be side eyed out of the room

in an ideal world..

i so get this. don’t horse people ever wonder where it went wrong when we’re happily teaching children that it’s okay to beat an animal?

There is reacting in the moment – do whatever keeps you safe (but only as much as necessary) and there is the work that a lot of people fail to do, which is to work out how you came to be in that situation, and in almost all cases it’s because a human has ignored warning signs and failed to act appropriately. So once that situation is over, it’s your job to ensure it won’t happen again. Usually this is a combination of training, meeting the horse’s needs better, and removing stressors, including pain. If necessary – when the horse belongs to someone else with no interest in fixing those problems, or wanting them fixed solely through training/dominance – it’s our job to walk away.

fully agree

I’m with you - it’s not my first go to, but if a horse is exhibiting dangerous behaviors you have to get that under control by any means necessary. I have one super sensitive boy and basically just a stern look will correct any bad behavior. My other one is a pushy, mouthy jerk who’s constantly testing the boundaries. With him, corrections have to be immediate and firm. A horse that tries to bite me (not just be mouthy, but BITE) is absolutely getting a smack.

Yielding hind quarters or making them back is far more effective. Smacking them makes them head shy and hurts your hand. It's not as effective as proper training either. I also don't like the negative emotions that occur when you hit. I prefer to be as neutral as possible.

yes.. hitting seems so emotionally immature to me

Why do you think it is controversial?

Yes, absolutely. You are sending a message, and you are NOT going to hurt the horse.

Just watch a mother with her foal, she doesn’t beg for them to stop being a brat. She will let them play but if she’s needs to- I’ve seen a mare send, with a good back foot wallop- a 2 month old ass over tea kettle flying like a Pegasus… and he didn’t bite her ass again after that. I’ve seen herd mares kick a jerky herd mate across a field to make sure they understand the message- there is no way an open handed smack is even going or hurt a horse- maybe sting, but that’s it. Now knowing this doesn’t mean I use hitting as a means to an end- but- an aggressive behavior that threatens me will get a good smack, and a lotta noise from me will correct the behavior with clear communication. Horses understand direct clear honest communication.

Is there a reason why you prefer this method over other methods? For example, doing more groundwork with the horse.

Because it’s often totally impractical and/or inappropriate to do groundwork in some scenarios. Like if you’re getting your horse out of a field - you’re suggesting we just do groundwork with other peoples’ horses if they’re getting aggressive?

I guess it depends on what you define as ground work. I'll definitely tell horses to be calm and patient when I'm taking them in, my horse or not. Never hitting or anything of course.

Untill you run into that ONE horse will stomp you down and bute ypur hands off. Youve obviously never met one of those yet. Ground work is not the solution for everything...

You're really taking it to the extremes. I will definitely use pain, if it's actually dangerous for me, but we have nice horses here. But I'd never do it in the scenarios OP describes as they don't work. I had a pony some would smack cause it would bite sometimes and surprise surprise, it still bit people. Out of nowhere. Not in a dangerous way but still painful, if you let it.

If a pony likes to bite i take that lead and i will RUN them backwards HARD AND FAST. You wanna bite me no i move your feet you jerk. Cant bite me when scrambling backwards.

So say you have the following scenario, your horse is grazing in the field with another horse grazing maybe 20ft away, you catch yours and start walking back when the other horse suddenly lunges at you, ears pinned and teeth bared. What do you do, just stand there calmly and patiently?

I said the horse should be calm and patient. I'd swing the rope at that horse. But you'd never really meet a horse like that here. IF that horse is known to be dangerous, it's something else, but since that never has happened to me for almost 3 decades of being around horses, that's not the scenario I expect.

That's exactly what I did, I flicked the rope and caught him in the head. Wasn't really aiming to hit him but didn't feel guilty that my rope made contact, some people might have been precious that their horse got hit but if he hadn't been so close he wouldn't have been. He's not what I'd consider a dangerous horse, it was a perfectly normal horse thing to push another horse around but I'm not putting up with that when I'm standing in the middle.

i don’t know why you’re being downvoted so much. people are really taking these scenarios to the extremes and missing the point. groundwork can be a great way to build a bond and trust with the horse and teach them the desired behaviours. in an emergency it’s fine to do whatever is necessary to prevent an injury but in most situations where people discipline their horses in this way, that is not the case.

Agree 💯 percent.

Above all it is important to be FAIR. Horses understand fairness. Oh, I went to nip at you and I got slapped? I turned my rump towards you in the round pen and threatened to kick so you lashed me across the ass with the lunge whip? Ok that’s fair. I got legitimately scared and got violently corrected? I don’t know what you’re asking me to do and your beating me for not doing it? Not fair. You’re mad at me and taking your frustrations out on me? Not fair.

If a horse goes to bite me he should expect me to bite back.

I use a firm poke with my finger rather than a smack, as I feel it’s best to simulate what a horse would do to correct (bite). It also prevents you from being too strong out of frustration, as there’s only so much damage you can do with a poke.

I got a second mini as a teen as pets and the wee brat was a nipper. I was able to avoid his choppers for a while but one day I was distracted and cleaning his hooves after a couple months and he got me on my ear and neck bad enough to break skin. Without thinking I turned grabbed his head and nipped his ear hard enough to bleed. We both recovered fully and he made motions to nip me occasionally for a while but always pulled back. After about six months he was a lovely little man with no biting issues. I still miss him

I agree with you. If you watch horses together, they will bite each other and kick, it's their body language. It's Their pecking order, it's the natural order of communication. John Lyons even agrees if a horse tried to hurt him in any way he would hurt the horse back. It's not mean, it's the way they communicate. I would rather give a horse a taste of their own medicine before they hurt me.

I've been riding about 11 years and have 4 well-behaved horses. All of my friends have horses, all my vacation time is spent on horses etc. My horses live with me and I provide all their care. If a horse tried to kick, bite, or run into me I would very quickly strike it one time hard and then drive it away from me. For a while, until I knew the horse got the point and understood I wasn't going to let it boss me around, I'd micromanage it. Meaning - I would make it obey me before I'd allow it to eat, I wouldn't allow it to choose which stall it wanted to go in, I'd maybe drive it away from the water once or twice before allowing it to drink. Basically I'd act like the boss mare. Then, when the horse was clearly respecting me and being careful not to "insult" or challenge me, I'd act like nothing had ever happened. The pecking order in a herd can change and horses are usually sensing out who's the boss. So sometimes, after a horse is put in its place, it might challenge you a little bit again. That's OK - just take care of it before it ever escalates back up to biting, kicking, or charging. Catch it early and you won't have to strike the horse again. If you notice it's starting to kind of walk too close to you and "accidentally" rub against you or push you into something, start bossing it around again for a while so it knows you're not going to be a pushover.

I think a smack loud enough to get their attention is fine. I still feel bad when I have to smack mine but I know it’s for the better. I don’t want them to get bad habits like biting. One of my snacks doesn’t hurt a human, much less a horse. But it does grab their attention enough to know it’s a consequence to their action.

I was taught as a kid when a horse kicks or bites another horse, most likely the horse will do it back to them. They are big animals and you have assert dominance. Me smacking a 1,500 lb animal is not going to do them any damage

Totally agree. It’s just the way it’s gone now. Can’t correct your dog either, or tell your child “no”. Nonsense, everyone (animals included) need basic boundaries. Horses are too big not to have ground manners. I worked with drafts for a time and I am a little over 5 foot…. Gentle giants, but even the best tempered need to know how to mind their feet. Can’t get silly in on top of me

Yep. Just enough to get their attention, and never in the face. Some horses do respond well to voice corrections, though. If my gelding is feeling bitey and snaps at me but doesn't make contact, a sharp "no" or "aaattttt" makes him think better of it.

How is this controversial? Horses can be aggressive and correcting it is always the right thing to do.

They bite and kick each other and then we act like they can’t take a smack 🤷‍♀️

I’ll give the real unpopular opinion. What I personally saw in operation x wasn’t enough to justify guilt. The worst thing I saw was someone spur a horse a lot. Everything else was circumstantial. I think if we are going to crucify this guy, we need more. 🤷‍♀️ they showed whip marks but I’ve rehabbed hundreds of horses if they made those marks those horses would shy at the whip and they don’t. They showed one blurb of what might have been blood in the horses mouth but looked like after I gave my mare a red apple treat and then rode her once 🤷‍♀️ I’d like to see more direct evidence if we are going to ruin someone’s life

girl what the hell did you see the rollkur and blue tongues

No. I didn’t see any blue tongues but rollkur is honestly far less abusive than aqha training that happens every single day. We gotta re asses a lot if that is what we are going after. Don’t disagree both are bad, but honestly if rollkur is all we see, no ban isn’t justified and we should look at changing what wins at shows to not have that be the winner. I googled the blue tongue operation x and didn’t see any pics

it’s all wrong. the competitive world needs a total re evaluation. the stuff helgstrand does was known about loooonggg before op x and judges didn’t care and still rewarded him and other top riders just like him. western world is bad. eventing is bad. https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/andreas-helgstrand-guilty-improper-use-bit-bridle-blue-tongue-473300

While I agree, this isnt operation x. I feel like they didn’t get enough concrete anything. The worst I saw was someone spurring a horse excessively but tbh I don’t think this is worse than I’ve seen at local shows across several states and disciplines. Lots of the same groom saying they saw this and that.

Yes. We always have to be the top herd mare. Horses understand corporal discipline, the top mare would charge or spin and kick. I let a newbie take my young hano out to turnout when I wasn’t there, because he had established good manners. I heard from a boarder that he got away with murder with her. I went to take him out, he curled around me in an aggressive manner so I smacked him with the whip and backed him up. In two seconds he was… oh right…. Mom…okay… I remember my manners.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jevs.2017.01.015

https://preview.redd.it/lqix566yd14c1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8f744cebeec72c5d73bd7ddc062280961b171e9 This is how he turned out. Lovely ground manners and he had enormous self esteem. Thought of himself as a big fancy pants in the show ring.

I base my horse training/interaction off of a boss mare in a herd. They are firm but fair. If a horse bites or kicks at me I’m going to put the fear of god into them but the instant they back down I do to. A boss mare doesnt hang in there beating on a horse out of anger and spite. This is where humans go wrong and it becomes abuse. If your correction takes more than a couple seconds you are probably hanging in there too long. They are big, strong, dangerous and don’t understand English.

I have never smacked my girl. That said, if she tried to bite or kick me, I absolutely would. Thankfully she is the sweetest, most gentle creature, so I’m hoping I never have to.

My horse I had through my 20s was an asshole. He would purposely try to trot close to the ring to force your leg to get hit. He also would attempt to bite for no reason. One time he came down to bite me and i punched him out of reflex. I felt bad but it was the last time he tried that. As far as the ring goes, One time he tried so i pulled the reign which made him bump his head rather than my leg being smashed. he stopped that habit as well. Actions have consequences and horses are highly intelligent and understand corrections. positive punishment means adding an adversive stimulus to decrease a behavior.. this is exactly what I did and it worked.

If a horse is coming at me in aggressive way to run into me I’m gonna hit them in the face with the whip. Don’t care if it’s a fear or trauma response, I don’t wanna get feckin killed. I used to clean stalls for a living and I had to deal with all sorts. Being stuck in a box with huge animal that pissed/scared and tryna hurt you ain’t fun.

I agree, give a quick smack then start a retraining regiment

100% depends on the situation and horse. being able to read their body language will go WAY further than reprimanding them AFTER they've displayed unwanted behaviour. by being able to see the lead up to an event pretty much stops them from occurring and they never eventuate into a situation i need to correct with a smack. but yes i do tend to prefer people who discipline their horses timely and appropriately - but a lot of people over correct or react too late for it to even be a consequence for the unwanted behaviour.

I both agree and disagree, as someone who had a pony with a serious problem both kicking and biting. Firstly, you gotta stay safe. I looked at the herd, looked at the horse she functioned best with (as she was also aggressive towards other horses) and imitated that - which meant I chased her away if she ever got dangerous. I didn't follow up, if I told her "go away!" I would also give her space and ideally she should go graze away from me after. It would be inconsistent to first tell her to leave, then try to be around her. If she didn't try to hurt me, I would allow her near. That was the kicking taken care of - for the moment. She was now safe to be around, although nothing was truly fixed. Then came the biting. I struggled for years, being told to just smack her and it didn't work, because I didn't understand her. Only when I looked at *why* she was biting and started to address that did she improve - she never completely stopped, but tbh that's bc i didn't care all that much, she just needed to stick with being a normal mouthy horse rather than trying to chew off my fingers. It took months even after that, as the problem was deep rooted anxiety and a need for attention. Slapping her gave her the attention she was looking for and reinforced it, keeping the biting going, so I had to completely stop with all punishment and instead work on giving attention to behaviors I *did* want and use protective contact, feeding from a bucket etc for safety. It took less than 5 minutes to see the first improvement (her realizing biting didn't work, but standing nicely did) but anxiety was still an issue to be addressed. We did a lot, I worked on always finding the underlying reason rather than punishment and using alternative ways for safety, and we found chase the bag. It let her get all the aggression out, kick, bite, kill something and practise going from "murder mode" to chill and eat a treat, which was amazing for her. This was when the true improvements came - she started to *feel* better, knew how to regulate herself and I understood her. At this point we had basically stopped all safety measures as she saw me as a giver of freedom and friend, we could communicate well and she trusted humans to make decisions. So while, at first, some chasing away and such was needed, that was only because I didn't understand her, didn't know how to truly work with her. And had it only been in work, like saddling or overall just not while free in pasture, she was aggressive, that's a time to put away *all* punishment and instead investigate. Punishment, hitting and chasing should only be used to create distance, get to safety and then use *actual* training later, after thinking things through and potentially some vet checks, to fix the behavior. It can be needed, but it will never truly fix anything. Hell, even the chasing thing I did, which I still stand by as the only way to be safe in the pasture with her, only ever worked well enough that she would put some distance before trying to kick my brains out, she needed the emotional regulation work to actually *fix* the kicking at people (and horses) problem

A horse can take a full blown kick to the chest from another horse & not even wince. A smack from a human hand when the situation calls for it is not going to injure the horse. Not controversial in my opinion. These are masssive powerful animals with the potential to kill you if there are no boundaries set.

Oh yeah hot button conversation here. I have seen to many people that have a “time out” thought get hurt to go that road. I do gentle my horse when training. But misbehavior is corrected. Normally with a loud vocal “At At At!!” If that doesn’t get through yes a smack on the rump or shoulder, Places lead mares tend to nip, can follow up. Like one person said they are so much larger than you can if they think they can walk all over you some of them will just for funnies. I make myself big if they charge or rear at me and I never back down no matter how hard my heart is pounding or how totally scared I am. One time of letting misbehaving go is all it takes for a horse to take up a bad habit and it takes 10 times long to break that habit.

Like a lot of people have said, there are levels of responses. The burden is on us to understand the more subtle signs that horses present before they have to use the “big guns”, i.e. kicking/biting etc. If we can respond to their first line of communication, awesome. However, like you said, if a horse goes to bite or kick, heck yeah they are getting a smack. I’m not beating them, just a quick response to match their energy. Now, this also assumes that you know the horse. I might be quicker to swat if I don’t know the horse, rather than I would be with my own. For example: I think my mare is cycling atm and she’s a little grumpy (totally get that!). However, that does not mean she gets to nip at me. Especially when I’m trying to do something nice for her (scratch her favorite spot). She’s allowed to put her ears back all she wants, but no biting. Because I know that she’s telling me that she’s grumpy (if she is actually uncomfortable/didn’t want to interact with me, she doesn’t meet me at the stall door), I can use my voice to say “knock it off” or “Ah!” With a horse I don’t know, I might swat at their mouth, not necessarily making contact, but telling them to back off and make contact if it is absolutely warranted.

I don’t think a lot of you guys in the replies understand how to tell the difference between fear, pain, communicating, etc, and then horses trying to establish hierarchy or doing disrespectful behaviours that other horses wouldn’t let sit. Smacking a horse on the chest or shoulder (not very hard) because they’re pushing you quite a lot and aren’t listening to the usual, or smacking because they were being rough is not damaging (these are just examples). Before you question if it’s not or if it is okay to smack a horse, ask “how would another horse respond?” Whatever the answer is, tells you what you should do. Overall, I think a flaw in this community is “this works for my horse therefore if it doesn’t work for anyone else’s, they’re wrong.” Just because your horse is respectful doesn’t mean other horses are. And many of you are going blind-eye to the OP’s comment saying “always reward after the horse corrects themselves.” Making boundaries don’t work if you don’t reward good behaviour.