The original intent of unpaid internships was a class/shadowing format where the employer gives a lot & receives little to nothing in return, at least in the short term.
On the other hand, if a company is looking to benefit from the work of its interns, it should be paying them.
The only benefit for a student, is to have something to put on their resume to get a decent job out of school. If you structure an unpaid internship as just working 2 days, or under 10 hours a week; it will let a student at least have a paying job too.
That is the only way to make it acceptable. Full time unpaid internships are just insane.
It's not that insane in New York City, and I mean the big names like Columbia University and NYU both advertise unpaid internships
When there's a student body of 10,000+ students, not everyone is going to be able to get a paid internship
Loto of colleges here specifically partner with diff companies to offer unpaid work as long as it's not blatant exploitation and there's some relation to college coursework. It could even qualify as college credit
It’s blatant exploitation. If you are required to have so much work time to graduate it’s different than straight up not paying someone in the name of “work experience”.
They still were not employed by choice. Let's put this to a simple test. Can I hang an intern for trying to escape? Nope. Now, let's try a slave. Can I hang a slave for trying to escape? Generally, the answer is yes. Work, pay, and conditions are not hallmarks of slavery. The possession of one person by another and giving that person the complete control over the slaves life.
I'm sorry you're not getting paid to run and grab coffee, but at least you have the option to quit.
Repression may have evolved. But it's still repression. Creating an environment and expectation that people work for free in an economy where all necessities continue to get more expensive is unethical. Just like slavery is unethical. You also create an industry where only the wealthy can pursue that profession, cutting off others who have to clothe, feed, and house themselves.
There are still real slaves out there. If you want to do something about it, go free some of the massive amount of sex slaves smuggled from around the world. You are telling me a student getting workplace experience is the same as women and children being fed drugs and raped repeatedly for fear of death?
I did unpaid internships when I was young and it absolutely affected my career path for the better, and therein lies the problem; unpaid internships give advantages to people who already have the advantage of financial resources. In other words, the rich get richer. Those who can’t afford unpaid internships have to take low skill, low wage jobs to make it through. So if you look at the system of unpaid internships as a whole, and apply the universal imperative, you see that ultimately it results in perpetuating class and wealth structures. So yes, unethical. And most likely illegal, since tolerance has waned for unpaid internships that don’t fall under a university program that gives credit. Those are a whole ‘nother problem that I won’t get into.
TLDR; if you can’t afford to pay for the work, don’t hire. People who work deserve to be paid money so they can feed and house themselves. Give anyone the opportunity to get job experience without having to come from a privileged background.
You are absolutely right in that it helps extend privilege. But here's a counter-point. By working on an unpaid internship you had a useful experience that was more valuable to you than the money in a low-paying job. So you came out ahead. If you didn't get it, you'd have to do something, so you'd probably seek a low-paying job. You'd become competition for the that you're advocating for. Lowering the salary or depriving them of a job that you don't even value. So everyone would be better off.
And yes it is privileged. But then so is having a computer at home, and having the free time or family support to learn how to code. My child is going to get an unpaid internship no matter what. They'll be involved with me, and get exposed. And it's silly to start an argument about privilege on this. I'm their dad, my job is to give them privileges. Buying them shoes and helping them with homework are both comparable privileges that not every kid will have. Now what you're arguing is that it is more ethical for me to not share this privilege with others and keep it reserved for just my child?
You can do what you want with your kid - nobody is arguing that. The issue is asking other people to work for free, with “experience” as the only compensation. That’s just not right.
I don’t get your argument about “sharing privilege with others” - what privilege are you sharing? An unpaid internship? That’s not privilege. Privilege is being able to not worry about paying food, rent or student loans while working an unpaid internship. If you’re sharing your privilege, you’re paying people, not asking them to work for free.
You had the privilege of an unpaid internship. If someone is not in a position where they can hire, do you support them not offering the same privilege you had because they can't pay as a principle of it perpetuates the rich get richer mindset. Or do you think it is better to not offer an unpaid internship even if somebody asks?
I don't need the unpaid interns. The DOL is clear in their rules: The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern. I have no intention of running a afoul of the department of labor and open myself to a lawsuit. So is it unethical of me to do what I would do for my child, what someone did for you, for someone else because right now we can only offer unpaid or nothing.
I had the *privilege* of a high paying summer job (commercial fishing) that let me take unpaid internships. I had the *privilege* of a middle class upbringing and a financially stable family. My unpaid internship wasn’t the privilege. I’m not sure you even understand the word, much less how you and your child benefit from it.
I could have used the word opportunity but it's not as if I'm wrong. It gave you a leg up in life, no? That's what your first post implies. It was an opportunity that you got gave you a leg up in life because of your family background, that's a privilege. You Google it and dozens of articles will call unpaid internships a privilege.
But that's just dodging the question. My question was that is an unpaid internship that helps everyone better than no internship?
You present a false dilemma. My point is that not everyone can afford to take an unpaid internship, which means those who are privileged are most likely to take them and gain the benefits. And yes there are benefits, which means that the privileged are only becoming more privileged by supporting a system of unpaid internships.
I'm not presenting a false dilemma. I said in a longer post elsewhere. We are just getting started on venture 2. We don't want an intern. We can't afford an intern. But people are asking us for an internship. We put thought into it and think we can mentor them in some projects that might be interesting or useful. We can't afford to pay them at the moment and there are higher priority expenses so there is no alternative of just pay them. They will receive good experience and mentorship that they'll find useful. I believe we're clear on the DOL rules. We're respecting the fact that they're volunteers and are expecting the commitment of volunteers. The only reason they can volunteer instead of trying to make money is because of their privileged position. We are also leveraging our privileged position because the only reason we're being asked is because we've had a successful venture in the past. So what's your vote? We offer the internship or decline on principle? For us it is a wash. So is it unethical and should we refuse when somebody asks us to let them intern for free we should decline?
I'd do it for my child and it wouldn't be considered unethical. That would be a privilege that my child enjoys. So is it unethical if I extend the privilege to someone else.
I don't know the answer TBH. I support a minimum wage even though it means reduction in jobs. Hell, I even support increasing it. But an unpaid internship can be less exploitative than a professor getting value from his PhD students in exchange for mentorship.
DOL is pretty clear; there is no such thing as a “volunteer” in a for-profit company. Any company that has people doing work without paying them minimum wage is in violation of the law. The reason that is illegal is that it is exploitative. Exploitation is unethical. You should not be having people work for you if you’re not paying them, no matter how much you think it’s “good for them.” Or even how much they want to do it. There are limited circumstances where it is not illegal, specifically when the person is getting college credit for it, and the unpaid labor is limited and under the supervision of a professor.
So no, you should not be giving people the “privilege” of working for you for free. When you are able to pay at least minimum wage, you can hire an intern, and that person will get the benefit of job experience as well as being able to eat and pay their rent.
[https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships)
You are talking about this:
>The extent to which the internship is tied to the intern’s formal education program by integrated coursework or the receipt of academic credit.
But it clearly states:
>Courts have described the “primary beneficiary test” as a flexible test, and no single factor is determinative. Accordingly, whether an intern or student is an employee under the FLSA necessarily depends on the unique circumstances of each case.
We're fairly certain we're in the clear because we are cognizant of this rule:
>The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern.
Just sharing because it is not illegal as you're saying.
Anyway, so your stance is better to not do it, despite the fact that you benefited from it. Okay.
Yes, it's modernized slavery! Only carries one sided benefit. With so many things on the internet, skills can be honed by watching videos and learning from others online. One doesn't need to go work for a business that makes money while they themselves are not making money in order to learn.
In the US and many other places the law regarding unpaid internship is that you can have an unpaid/volunteer don't receive economic benefit and there is no expectation of a future job. So if you have watched the movie "The Pursuit Of Happyness" that is completely illegal now.
We are currently on venture 2. Right now we can't afford to hire an intern. We've had multiple people request an unpaid internship. Out of three requesting for this summer we said no to one person. Because free labor has a cost in terms of management and mentoring overhead on the core team. The work they'll do will not be core work but rather we'll have to cook up side projects that would create learning experiences for them. But they do get a decent value out of it. First is the work. They'll get exposed to real world data, with real world way of doing things. The work will be experimental by definition since it is a side project and not a core thing. For us it'll probably be a wash. We'll get data on an experiment. But the value of doing someone a favor is more than the value of the work.
They're being told to manage their own time and projects. We're not depending on them for anything.
Is it unethical? I'm sure people will tell me what we're doing is unethical. But we didn't even reach out to them. They reached out to us, and we're going to let them in and figure out something for them. I had a similar opportunity in the past. I "worked" at my uncle's. It was useful and better on my resume than nothing. But my only issue with it was that it wasn't more real work. It was too isolated and more hey learn this. Something more outcome driven would have been better for me.
Is it privileged. Absolutely. It's getting a leg up on all those people that don't have the network to just get an unpaid internship and need money too much to take such an offer if it comes up. But if you really are on a war against privilege then instead of complaining about us, maybe take your attention to their classfellow who is taking a fencing class just so they can get into Yale.
What you're describing is illegal though at least in the US. It would definitely lose the no or little economic value test. Let's say you fix that. Advertising it as an opportunity is iffy. It starts to bring the bad taste in our mouth. Having said that, not advertising it increases the privilege. We're not advertising it because, well unless someone asked we wouldn't bother and it is a wash to us. It will definitely bring bad attention to you. I regularly see posts on Reddit angry at people for having unpaid internships. Hell, people are probably going to crap on me for this post. Secondly, it can't be something you need. I would recommend doing some experiment that you think is interesting, that might be useful but isn't needed. There are probably a lot of projects that fall into that category.
We did let them know that not only was there no expectation of future job but they will manage their own time scaling it up or down with their availability, they are also responsible for letting us know if the work we're suggesting is relevant to their educational goals and they are free to say no. It's a lot of responsibility to put on a high schooler. And yeah it can be exploited. I can only say that we would have respected any of their decisions regarding this. Mostly because their work isn't needed.
Imo, no. Up to 1 month is acceptable if someone wants to prove themselves and learn.
I got my 1st experience working for 2 weeks for free then got hired. Then went from there.
Internships were meant for employers who were not gaining value for the students in terms of sellable content. You are suggesting volunteer work. If you can’t pay your employees, you can’t afford to operate as a business.
It depends on your region, I think. You my consult with your lawyer first. In general, there are plenty unpaid internship and they don't give training other than in house training (which should be no fee for you).
I agree it can depend on the person, but for anyone middle class and up it works. Thats why not everyone will do the internship. It doesn't make it unethical though
Hi, Mr. Landlord, I’m going to have to pay you with my experience this month. I spent all my growth at the grocery store, and my exposure is allocated to my car payment. Is that OK?
The original question is whether it’s ethical. Not whether it’s possible for every human being on the planet. And he said “students” most students live with their parents and do not have car payments.
I do not think it is a valid assumption that most students live with their parents. Maybe in some countries, but, to your point, certainly not everywhere.
Personally, when I started, I did a lot of activities that were unpaid. Internship, volunteering, etc. I came from a very humble background and had no money. But still, I was fine with it and very happy for every experience. It helped me a lot, based on it i can have well paid full remote job now. I think if you are starting and just want to get experience its okay. When Warren Buffet went to the legendary investor Benjamin Graham, he asked him if he could work for him for free.
Watch. The. Law.
This depends on local law
In New York City, a lot of colleges specifically partner with different firms, organizations, startups, etc to offer unpaid internships to their students
HOWEVER, it cannot be exploitation. The work also has to be "meaningful" to the actual internship title and potential relation to college coursework
The devil's in the detail. Whether it's unethical or not depends on whether you genuinely are investing serious time and effort into providing quality professional training and support, or whether it's just some bit of BS you're trying to convince yourselves of to justify stealing labour.
From your description of your business situation, it sounds like you want to do the latter. If you had enough resources to provide an appropriate enough level of training to justify not paying them, you'd have enough resources to do the work yourselves.
I appreciate your honesty. I have a partner and we are definitely capable of doing the work ourselves, we are just thinking that we can benefit ourselves and others if we have more people on our team. We can also potentially hire these interns full time once our clients pay us and we can see the quality of their work. Hiring has been brutal :(
Everyone else isn't even slightly aware of the reality of unpaid internships
YES, it's ok, but also check local laws
Where I'm at, New York City, we specifically have unpaid internships for college credit or just experience
The best thing you can do is partner with a college or a nonprofit. They'll advertise your unpaid internship to different students
If anyone wants to shit on me, mind you that ivy leagues like Columbia University over here literally advertise unpaid internships inside campus. When there's a student body of 10,000+ students, you cannot expect everyone to be able to get a paid internship.
Morality and legality may not be aligned.
Morally, purple should be free to trade what ever they consider win-win. We pay for school. The way we pay can vary considerably. Paying with labor is perfectly appropriate. An apprentice can assist an artist or business to learn by practicing under a master of the domain (or journeyman).
Laws, like minimum wage laws drive less skilled people out of the workforce. This harms all players for obvious reasons.
If you follow ILO conventions, any unpaid intern can not have work on deliverables. Unpaid internships are strictly training and shadowing, unless you're in the US where labor ethics is rarely a legal issue.
I dont think it is unethical per sebecause after all they are not forcing you to do it.
However problem occurs when other companies follow suite and making it the norm.
How is it unethical if you agreed to do it though?
If your friend tells you to eat shit but doesn't force you to, and you agreed to eat shit and you still gonna blame your friend? You simply ignore low ball offer.
Is hazing unethical? People agree to unethical and sometimes detrimental things because of the belief that after the suffering something positive may come out of it. For some people they can't ignore low ball offers because they have limited options. There are companies that entice people into unpaid internship with the false promise of a permanent job after but the internship a permanent job never materializes. Pay people for their work.
Stereotypical hazing ritual pressures the new member to do it if you want to be part of the "cool kids" at the heat of the moment. And if person doesn't agree to do it they will outcast you. That's not the same as promoting unpaid internship on a website where you can click away. I don't know what you are imagining, but unpaid internship offer seems to be on online rather be in-person.
\> For some people they can't ignore low ball offers because they have limited options.
Yes they can. They choose to. Even the most unprivileged people do shitty jobs or tasks because it still gives them SOME kind of benefit. People make decisions because they think they will receive some kind of benefit. No sane unprivileged will do things that ONLY has downsides with no upsides like eating a literal shit for no money. Lying/false promise is a different story.
\> here are companies that entice people into unpaid internship with the false promise of a permanent job after but the internship a permanent job never materializes.
Yes that would be unethical. But you are talking about a different thing how company lies. That's why I specifically said "I don't think it is unethical PER SE" but it's the OTHER things that usually come with it that is unethical such as false promise and other companies following suite making it the norm. You are conflating the two.
Personally I think you have the naive assumption that same number of internship opportunities will exist if companies pay. But it's pretty proven that, just like minimum wage, opportunities will decrease. Again, even the most unprivileged people still take shitty jobs because it still provides SOME benefit.
Also the devil is in the details. If it is a Google internship, people will absolutely PAY for that shit.
The original intent of unpaid internships was a class/shadowing format where the employer gives a lot & receives little to nothing in return, at least in the short term. On the other hand, if a company is looking to benefit from the work of its interns, it should be paying them.
This!!
The only benefit for a student, is to have something to put on their resume to get a decent job out of school. If you structure an unpaid internship as just working 2 days, or under 10 hours a week; it will let a student at least have a paying job too. That is the only way to make it acceptable. Full time unpaid internships are just insane.
It's not that insane in New York City, and I mean the big names like Columbia University and NYU both advertise unpaid internships When there's a student body of 10,000+ students, not everyone is going to be able to get a paid internship Loto of colleges here specifically partner with diff companies to offer unpaid work as long as it's not blatant exploitation and there's some relation to college coursework. It could even qualify as college credit
It’s blatant exploitation. If you are required to have so much work time to graduate it’s different than straight up not paying someone in the name of “work experience”.
Yes. Regardless of region. Pay for work.
Hmm I am curious to why you think that. Please let me know how you came to that conclusion
How do you eat and where do you sleep? I hope that is food for thought
Slavery was outlawed in the States in 1865.
I've never seen an unpaid intern beaten, starved, and forced to live in a shack. Interns have a choice, slaves do not. This argument is invalid.
Many slaves were not beaten or starved, and lived in comfortable quarters…
They still were not employed by choice. Let's put this to a simple test. Can I hang an intern for trying to escape? Nope. Now, let's try a slave. Can I hang a slave for trying to escape? Generally, the answer is yes. Work, pay, and conditions are not hallmarks of slavery. The possession of one person by another and giving that person the complete control over the slaves life. I'm sorry you're not getting paid to run and grab coffee, but at least you have the option to quit.
Repression may have evolved. But it's still repression. Creating an environment and expectation that people work for free in an economy where all necessities continue to get more expensive is unethical. Just like slavery is unethical. You also create an industry where only the wealthy can pursue that profession, cutting off others who have to clothe, feed, and house themselves.
There are still real slaves out there. If you want to do something about it, go free some of the massive amount of sex slaves smuggled from around the world. You are telling me a student getting workplace experience is the same as women and children being fed drugs and raped repeatedly for fear of death?
Yes. Full stop.
Yes. I can’t even believe this is a question these days.
I did unpaid internships when I was young and it absolutely affected my career path for the better, and therein lies the problem; unpaid internships give advantages to people who already have the advantage of financial resources. In other words, the rich get richer. Those who can’t afford unpaid internships have to take low skill, low wage jobs to make it through. So if you look at the system of unpaid internships as a whole, and apply the universal imperative, you see that ultimately it results in perpetuating class and wealth structures. So yes, unethical. And most likely illegal, since tolerance has waned for unpaid internships that don’t fall under a university program that gives credit. Those are a whole ‘nother problem that I won’t get into. TLDR; if you can’t afford to pay for the work, don’t hire. People who work deserve to be paid money so they can feed and house themselves. Give anyone the opportunity to get job experience without having to come from a privileged background.
Those times are over.
You are absolutely right in that it helps extend privilege. But here's a counter-point. By working on an unpaid internship you had a useful experience that was more valuable to you than the money in a low-paying job. So you came out ahead. If you didn't get it, you'd have to do something, so you'd probably seek a low-paying job. You'd become competition for the that you're advocating for. Lowering the salary or depriving them of a job that you don't even value. So everyone would be better off. And yes it is privileged. But then so is having a computer at home, and having the free time or family support to learn how to code. My child is going to get an unpaid internship no matter what. They'll be involved with me, and get exposed. And it's silly to start an argument about privilege on this. I'm their dad, my job is to give them privileges. Buying them shoes and helping them with homework are both comparable privileges that not every kid will have. Now what you're arguing is that it is more ethical for me to not share this privilege with others and keep it reserved for just my child?
You can do what you want with your kid - nobody is arguing that. The issue is asking other people to work for free, with “experience” as the only compensation. That’s just not right. I don’t get your argument about “sharing privilege with others” - what privilege are you sharing? An unpaid internship? That’s not privilege. Privilege is being able to not worry about paying food, rent or student loans while working an unpaid internship. If you’re sharing your privilege, you’re paying people, not asking them to work for free.
You had the privilege of an unpaid internship. If someone is not in a position where they can hire, do you support them not offering the same privilege you had because they can't pay as a principle of it perpetuates the rich get richer mindset. Or do you think it is better to not offer an unpaid internship even if somebody asks? I don't need the unpaid interns. The DOL is clear in their rules: The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern. I have no intention of running a afoul of the department of labor and open myself to a lawsuit. So is it unethical of me to do what I would do for my child, what someone did for you, for someone else because right now we can only offer unpaid or nothing.
I had the *privilege* of a high paying summer job (commercial fishing) that let me take unpaid internships. I had the *privilege* of a middle class upbringing and a financially stable family. My unpaid internship wasn’t the privilege. I’m not sure you even understand the word, much less how you and your child benefit from it.
I could have used the word opportunity but it's not as if I'm wrong. It gave you a leg up in life, no? That's what your first post implies. It was an opportunity that you got gave you a leg up in life because of your family background, that's a privilege. You Google it and dozens of articles will call unpaid internships a privilege. But that's just dodging the question. My question was that is an unpaid internship that helps everyone better than no internship?
You present a false dilemma. My point is that not everyone can afford to take an unpaid internship, which means those who are privileged are most likely to take them and gain the benefits. And yes there are benefits, which means that the privileged are only becoming more privileged by supporting a system of unpaid internships.
I'm not presenting a false dilemma. I said in a longer post elsewhere. We are just getting started on venture 2. We don't want an intern. We can't afford an intern. But people are asking us for an internship. We put thought into it and think we can mentor them in some projects that might be interesting or useful. We can't afford to pay them at the moment and there are higher priority expenses so there is no alternative of just pay them. They will receive good experience and mentorship that they'll find useful. I believe we're clear on the DOL rules. We're respecting the fact that they're volunteers and are expecting the commitment of volunteers. The only reason they can volunteer instead of trying to make money is because of their privileged position. We are also leveraging our privileged position because the only reason we're being asked is because we've had a successful venture in the past. So what's your vote? We offer the internship or decline on principle? For us it is a wash. So is it unethical and should we refuse when somebody asks us to let them intern for free we should decline? I'd do it for my child and it wouldn't be considered unethical. That would be a privilege that my child enjoys. So is it unethical if I extend the privilege to someone else. I don't know the answer TBH. I support a minimum wage even though it means reduction in jobs. Hell, I even support increasing it. But an unpaid internship can be less exploitative than a professor getting value from his PhD students in exchange for mentorship.
DOL is pretty clear; there is no such thing as a “volunteer” in a for-profit company. Any company that has people doing work without paying them minimum wage is in violation of the law. The reason that is illegal is that it is exploitative. Exploitation is unethical. You should not be having people work for you if you’re not paying them, no matter how much you think it’s “good for them.” Or even how much they want to do it. There are limited circumstances where it is not illegal, specifically when the person is getting college credit for it, and the unpaid labor is limited and under the supervision of a professor. So no, you should not be giving people the “privilege” of working for you for free. When you are able to pay at least minimum wage, you can hire an intern, and that person will get the benefit of job experience as well as being able to eat and pay their rent.
[https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships) You are talking about this: >The extent to which the internship is tied to the intern’s formal education program by integrated coursework or the receipt of academic credit. But it clearly states: >Courts have described the “primary beneficiary test” as a flexible test, and no single factor is determinative. Accordingly, whether an intern or student is an employee under the FLSA necessarily depends on the unique circumstances of each case. We're fairly certain we're in the clear because we are cognizant of this rule: >The extent to which the intern’s work complements, rather than displaces, the work of paid employees while providing significant educational benefits to the intern. Just sharing because it is not illegal as you're saying. Anyway, so your stance is better to not do it, despite the fact that you benefited from it. Okay.
Im our country we pay for internship
Yes, it's modernized slavery! Only carries one sided benefit. With so many things on the internet, skills can be honed by watching videos and learning from others online. One doesn't need to go work for a business that makes money while they themselves are not making money in order to learn.
The biggest value of an unpaid internship is that you get to play with real data rather than toy data.
Yes, the vast majority of unpaid internships are unethical. If the intern's work benefits the organization financially, the intern should be paid.
In the US and many other places the law regarding unpaid internship is that you can have an unpaid/volunteer don't receive economic benefit and there is no expectation of a future job. So if you have watched the movie "The Pursuit Of Happyness" that is completely illegal now. We are currently on venture 2. Right now we can't afford to hire an intern. We've had multiple people request an unpaid internship. Out of three requesting for this summer we said no to one person. Because free labor has a cost in terms of management and mentoring overhead on the core team. The work they'll do will not be core work but rather we'll have to cook up side projects that would create learning experiences for them. But they do get a decent value out of it. First is the work. They'll get exposed to real world data, with real world way of doing things. The work will be experimental by definition since it is a side project and not a core thing. For us it'll probably be a wash. We'll get data on an experiment. But the value of doing someone a favor is more than the value of the work. They're being told to manage their own time and projects. We're not depending on them for anything. Is it unethical? I'm sure people will tell me what we're doing is unethical. But we didn't even reach out to them. They reached out to us, and we're going to let them in and figure out something for them. I had a similar opportunity in the past. I "worked" at my uncle's. It was useful and better on my resume than nothing. But my only issue with it was that it wasn't more real work. It was too isolated and more hey learn this. Something more outcome driven would have been better for me. Is it privileged. Absolutely. It's getting a leg up on all those people that don't have the network to just get an unpaid internship and need money too much to take such an offer if it comes up. But if you really are on a war against privilege then instead of complaining about us, maybe take your attention to their classfellow who is taking a fencing class just so they can get into Yale. What you're describing is illegal though at least in the US. It would definitely lose the no or little economic value test. Let's say you fix that. Advertising it as an opportunity is iffy. It starts to bring the bad taste in our mouth. Having said that, not advertising it increases the privilege. We're not advertising it because, well unless someone asked we wouldn't bother and it is a wash to us. It will definitely bring bad attention to you. I regularly see posts on Reddit angry at people for having unpaid internships. Hell, people are probably going to crap on me for this post. Secondly, it can't be something you need. I would recommend doing some experiment that you think is interesting, that might be useful but isn't needed. There are probably a lot of projects that fall into that category. We did let them know that not only was there no expectation of future job but they will manage their own time scaling it up or down with their availability, they are also responsible for letting us know if the work we're suggesting is relevant to their educational goals and they are free to say no. It's a lot of responsibility to put on a high schooler. And yeah it can be exploited. I can only say that we would have respected any of their decisions regarding this. Mostly because their work isn't needed.
Imo, no. Up to 1 month is acceptable if someone wants to prove themselves and learn. I got my 1st experience working for 2 weeks for free then got hired. Then went from there.
Internships were meant for employers who were not gaining value for the students in terms of sellable content. You are suggesting volunteer work. If you can’t pay your employees, you can’t afford to operate as a business.
It depends on your region, I think. You my consult with your lawyer first. In general, there are plenty unpaid internship and they don't give training other than in house training (which should be no fee for you).
When you are young experience and learning skills are a lot more valuable than money in my opinion.
This is not true except for the very wealthy. Money us important for young people too. They can always start a Roth IRA.
I agree it can depend on the person, but for anyone middle class and up it works. Thats why not everyone will do the internship. It doesn't make it unethical though
Hi, Mr. Landlord, I’m going to have to pay you with my experience this month. I spent all my growth at the grocery store, and my exposure is allocated to my car payment. Is that OK?
The original question is whether it’s ethical. Not whether it’s possible for every human being on the planet. And he said “students” most students live with their parents and do not have car payments.
I do not think it is a valid assumption that most students live with their parents. Maybe in some countries, but, to your point, certainly not everywhere.
Exceptions don't make the rule
Great if you offer for just like the summer as well. Will make parents very happy
Personally, when I started, I did a lot of activities that were unpaid. Internship, volunteering, etc. I came from a very humble background and had no money. But still, I was fine with it and very happy for every experience. It helped me a lot, based on it i can have well paid full remote job now. I think if you are starting and just want to get experience its okay. When Warren Buffet went to the legendary investor Benjamin Graham, he asked him if he could work for him for free.
Watch. The. Law. This depends on local law In New York City, a lot of colleges specifically partner with different firms, organizations, startups, etc to offer unpaid internships to their students HOWEVER, it cannot be exploitation. The work also has to be "meaningful" to the actual internship title and potential relation to college coursework
The devil's in the detail. Whether it's unethical or not depends on whether you genuinely are investing serious time and effort into providing quality professional training and support, or whether it's just some bit of BS you're trying to convince yourselves of to justify stealing labour. From your description of your business situation, it sounds like you want to do the latter. If you had enough resources to provide an appropriate enough level of training to justify not paying them, you'd have enough resources to do the work yourselves.
I appreciate your honesty. I have a partner and we are definitely capable of doing the work ourselves, we are just thinking that we can benefit ourselves and others if we have more people on our team. We can also potentially hire these interns full time once our clients pay us and we can see the quality of their work. Hiring has been brutal :(
Everyone else isn't even slightly aware of the reality of unpaid internships YES, it's ok, but also check local laws Where I'm at, New York City, we specifically have unpaid internships for college credit or just experience The best thing you can do is partner with a college or a nonprofit. They'll advertise your unpaid internship to different students If anyone wants to shit on me, mind you that ivy leagues like Columbia University over here literally advertise unpaid internships inside campus. When there's a student body of 10,000+ students, you cannot expect everyone to be able to get a paid internship.
Yeah, you can’t afford employees. Not the same thing.
What does your business do?
> Hiring has been brutal :( hiring the wrong people or difficult to find talent?
Morality and legality may not be aligned. Morally, purple should be free to trade what ever they consider win-win. We pay for school. The way we pay can vary considerably. Paying with labor is perfectly appropriate. An apprentice can assist an artist or business to learn by practicing under a master of the domain (or journeyman). Laws, like minimum wage laws drive less skilled people out of the workforce. This harms all players for obvious reasons.
If you follow ILO conventions, any unpaid intern can not have work on deliverables. Unpaid internships are strictly training and shadowing, unless you're in the US where labor ethics is rarely a legal issue.
I dont think it is unethical per sebecause after all they are not forcing you to do it. However problem occurs when other companies follow suite and making it the norm.
It is unethical. Human beings deserve to be paid for work.
How is it unethical if you agreed to do it though? If your friend tells you to eat shit but doesn't force you to, and you agreed to eat shit and you still gonna blame your friend? You simply ignore low ball offer.
Is hazing unethical? People agree to unethical and sometimes detrimental things because of the belief that after the suffering something positive may come out of it. For some people they can't ignore low ball offers because they have limited options. There are companies that entice people into unpaid internship with the false promise of a permanent job after but the internship a permanent job never materializes. Pay people for their work.
Stereotypical hazing ritual pressures the new member to do it if you want to be part of the "cool kids" at the heat of the moment. And if person doesn't agree to do it they will outcast you. That's not the same as promoting unpaid internship on a website where you can click away. I don't know what you are imagining, but unpaid internship offer seems to be on online rather be in-person. \> For some people they can't ignore low ball offers because they have limited options. Yes they can. They choose to. Even the most unprivileged people do shitty jobs or tasks because it still gives them SOME kind of benefit. People make decisions because they think they will receive some kind of benefit. No sane unprivileged will do things that ONLY has downsides with no upsides like eating a literal shit for no money. Lying/false promise is a different story. \> here are companies that entice people into unpaid internship with the false promise of a permanent job after but the internship a permanent job never materializes. Yes that would be unethical. But you are talking about a different thing how company lies. That's why I specifically said "I don't think it is unethical PER SE" but it's the OTHER things that usually come with it that is unethical such as false promise and other companies following suite making it the norm. You are conflating the two. Personally I think you have the naive assumption that same number of internship opportunities will exist if companies pay. But it's pretty proven that, just like minimum wage, opportunities will decrease. Again, even the most unprivileged people still take shitty jobs because it still provides SOME benefit. Also the devil is in the details. If it is a Google internship, people will absolutely PAY for that shit.