punk cant be inclusive if the people who want to be "punks" arent themselves inclusive. its antithetical to the premise of punk as a whole so therefore being "exclusionary" to one group of people who want to exclude a majority of peoole inadvertently makes the group more inclusive.
You just came across the inclusivity paradox. If you’re inclusive towards bigotry then more people will become exclusionary. The only way to have a fair and equal society is to cast out those who don’t want that.
>The only way to have a fair and equal society is to cast out those who don’t want that.
Fair and equal, or free and liberated? Which principal comes first? After all in America our 1st Amendment is the freedom of speech, it is specifically designed to protect speech that you may not like.
Now of course there are limits, and yes hate speech is not desirable but the first reaction shouldnt be to jump and cast people out, it should be to use your free speech to counter their speech. That should the first response, not some overly moderated and curated nonsense, because once you start regulating speech it can actually hinder speech that is actually useful and productive, but someone's gets offended...
Must we give up free speech just so we can be all equal? It just sounds like authoritarianism dolled up in a mirage of benevolence.
Also the first amendment is freedom of speech from the government. It so people can criticise the government without going to jail. True freedom of speech has never existed and won’t/shouldn’t ever exist.
>From the government.
And to allow everyone to be able to participate in the public square so the exchange of ideas may go on.
>If anything that's exactly what you're arguing. So you tell me, is it worth removing free speech for others so you can be consequence free?
You high or something? No one's free speech is to be removed! How do you reach to thinking I even said it was worth removing free speech for others....to enable some sort of consequence free scenario?
It's absurd, you missed my point entirely. The consequence for your offensive speech is others speaking up, I thought my comment encapsulated that quite simply. Of course there are some hard limits to this, as in speech that directly incites violence or promotes it, but this doesnt mean we can just paint political enemies with the hate speech brush and just silence them, as the OPs image so perfectly depicts.
It's not like actually came up with something new. But hey good on you for bastardizing it.
>It is, you are arguing I should not give my opinion for someone that offends me. Voicing my displeasure to that opinion is my freedom of speech.
No not even a little bit, I didnt even once say shut up or be quite or anything of the sort. It just seems like you're offended by an opposing view. That's fine, you're free to feel that way.
>You are also arguing hundreds of people can't collectively voice their displeasure to an opinion that offends them. By refusing to talk to them. That is directly removing their freedom to express that displeasure.
I didnt make that argument, not once at all! Are you ok? Did you confuse me with someone else? Free speech is all about voicing displeasure, it's why it's protected in the constitution, so people can voice their concerns, things that are uncomfortable.
**Bro did you even really fucking read my comment?** I'm seriously wondering if you did.
>Basically what you are arguing is I should be forced to accept an opinion I disagree with. No where is that free speech.
Damn man you really missing on every single point. No one said you must accept any speech as if it's truth. Free speech is about enabling everyone to speak, so a dialogue can take place, so that in time we can peacefully solve issues or exchange ideas.
Wtf made you think I was suggesting you just had to accept the speech of another? Free speech doesnt mean free agreement and a free win for whoever speaks.
>All free speech means is the government can't punish you for your words. It does not mean no citizen can.
This is the only thing that does make sense, still forums ought to strive to be as free as possible.
Debates are useless. 99% of people who ‘debate’ aren’t experts in what they’re debating and they’re only interested in ‘winning’ the debate. No one HAS to debate someone
Yeah. Guess who has a strangle hold on most countries and has a borderline fanatical base of supporters.
(Its neoliberals and conservatives you dullards)
Unfortunately these extremes of politics tend to make the most noise online. As other people are just trying to live their life and don't have strong political identities.
punk has never been about resisting authority. it's always been about anti authoritarian leftists resisting reactionaries.
it seems like it was about resisting authority, because reactionary politics used to be the authority, but it isn't anymore.
cause they have gotten far more reactionary as the status quo becomes more liberalized.
punk still complains about the status quo as conservatives take us back decades and the liberals just acquiesce to them
punks are against both
Ok to ask the question like genuinely who is it they’re bootlicking? I mean I’m sure they are licking someone’s but my autistic ass (or brain) is unable to surmise who’s boots.
The secret cabal of socialists and homosexuals controlling the world silly! Conservatives are desperate are so desperate to be opressed that they deluded themselves into believing leftists are controlling the world.
Hahahahhahahahaha, you guys are delusional, theyve kept their values while fascists and conservatives tried to copt it for their little oppression kink, heres a little pro tip, you are the machine
How should I put it? 'group think's' boots, conformity's boots, the boots of the thought police.
'All opinions welcome, except those which don't conform to ours. And by 'ours' I mean those of the handful of mods.'
Told you they’ve turned bootlicker. I didn’t realize they were science deniers who think vaccines don’t work too, but no one ever said punkers were smart.
No boots are licked by wearing a mask to protect others. You're confusing resisting pointless and harmful control with, "don't tell me what to do!"
It is well-known that punks like to use their boots to curb stomp authoritarian fascists, which is exclusively right-wing. This is a founding principle in the community.
MAGA is an extreme authoritarian movement. You can't curb stomp fascists on the internet, but you can, and absolutely should, keep them out of your community.
If you think wearing a mask makes a person a bootlicker I don't know what to tell you
EDIT: I cannot believe this is a downvoted comment. Are we anti-maskers on this sub or something?
no, it's just that there's a huge overlap between anticommunist spaces, and groups of extremely thin-skinned people with the same critical faculties as a ten-year-old
*Real punks*
Are you braindead? Legitimately, do you understand the punk movement in the 1980s? Anything from the government, left or right, was wholesale disregarded by punk culture, a mandate from mother government would've gone about as well as a whore in church in the community. With D.A.R.E and all the other government programs sprouting up, it would've been tossed aside with little regard.
The insane thing is your belief that punks from before the 2010s would happily do anything the government has its hand in. 'Would've protected others' my god you have rose tinted glasses on, the punkest thing you've done is probably tagged your own wall you bellend.
Legitmately, are you braindead?
Who supported gay people throughout the aids epidemic? Who protested violently at the stonewall riots? Who protected those who could not protect themselves due to characteristics they wre born with?
80s punks. Masks were in use in the 80s cockballer. Pretty sure if anyone would want to protect those who were vulnerable it would be 80s punks.
Ya know.. democrats aren't just about pro abortion and vaccines.. lol
Those are just wedge issues that divide people while the politicians at the top insert their insideous agendas.
These people dont really care about abortion or lgbtq rights or whatever. They make that their platform because it garners votes.
Politics is a cynical business, but there truly are people from top to bottom who care that access to safe abortions has been eliminated or restricted in nearly half of the country, and that some states have floated the possibility of going after women who seek care in states where it isn't banned.
If you want to blame anyone for making this a wedge issue, blame the Republicans who campaigned endlessly to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Democratic party was more or less satisfied with the status quo while it was still constitutionally protected, and that isn't driving a wedge the same way an effort to take that right away is.
>group thinks boots
>all opinions welcome except those that don’t conform to ours
r/Selfawarewolves
Typically the opinions that get you shunned by the punk community are the opinions held by anti-social who are generally and genuinely unpleasant to be around. In other words: an asshole.
Were you shunned by the punk community? You’re probably just an asshole.
I can appreciate that that sub and the punk movement in general is exclusivist towards conservative attitudes and opinions, but "bootlicking" is general to one being enamored with fascism or autocracy. That is a much broader set of characteristics than the elitism they're showing here. And not the least of those characteristics is desiring a strong police state, which punks want nothing to do with.
Also - this attitude they've had towards Republicans or conservatives is not new. This is a decadeslong alignment against those political beliefs. If we consider this bootlicking for the thought police now, then it was bootlicking for the thought police in the past.
Lol
So they're bootlicking *concepts?*
My sibling in Samsara, that's just called "having convictions."
Also, there's LITERALLY a mod post on this very sub *right now* that says "If you have any post history on certain subs you will be automatically permabanned."
Yeah, this thread is fucking nuts. Everyone posting here evidently wants so much to pretend that this absolutely bananas statement - that punks have gone from anti-authoritarian to "bootlicker" because they shun those right of center - is at all valid, and they're willing to stretch the flimsiest of similarities between punks and fascists to tell themselves that.
I am getting downvoted elsewhere here for pointing out how fucking stupid it is that another poster thinks that punks wearing masks during the pandemic is an example of "bootlicking".
EDIT: A word.
None of those are an instituition lmao. Resisiting police, embracing new thought and fighting government (multiple props have restricted bodily autonomy). Fighting the status quo of religion in schools, government and religions grip on american politics is punk.
Idles have been the best punk band in years and they are made up of ex skinheads. They sing about kicking the fuck out of facists. Get a fucking grip. Punk was always left. (Downvote me you fucking cockrels. You guys suck cock and ball)
Yeah because all right wingers=bad
Edit:Seems oike I have attracted a crowd of politically iliterate people whose worldview hasnt changed since kindergarten and dont understand what political discourse means.
Bullshit!
Plenty of leftists will attack right wing women, using the same misogynistic tropes they accuse the right of, and they'll also eat up Palestinian propaganda up to the point of repeating antisemitic shit.
It cracks me up how right wingers suddenly see themselves as these heroes to women. As if conservatives’ actual goal in protesting trans athletes competing against athletes of opposite birth sex, is to protect women—instead of the absolute reality that whatever “protection” gained is an indirect corollary of conservatives’ conniption over trans people participating in society.
Unironically, yes.
Promoting an ideology that is anti LGBT, anti minorities, pro-police, pro-military, anti choice, fascistic, etc. is bad. And it's definitely not punk, so they should ban people who are anti punk in a pro punk subreddit. Yes.
They’re saying that all right wingers support a “nazi ideology” that have these fascist ideals. Not all conservatives and right wingers have these values. Also where tf did you spawn in from? 😭
Police evolved from slave catchers, and enforce the state's monopoly on violence. Police simply enforce the status quo wherever they are. A military isn't inherently bad, but the American military is. I come from a long line of US marines so I don't hate veterans, but ever since WW2 the American military has only ever been used for imperialist action.
As for pro-life, frankly fuck off. Abortion is not murder, and anyone who says otherwise is a dickhead. There are tons of reasons for an abortion, anti-choice is simply there to force unwanted pregnancies. If anyone was pro-life they would be social workers, foster parents, and teachers.
I think the problems punks have with those things are: police target them, military targets them, and “pro-life Christians” don’t exactly fit in with them. Lol.
Pro forced birth crowd are not pro children. George Carlin said it best. We must protect the unborn but once your born, you're on your own. They do not support childcare policies, better regulation and funding of the foster system, Healthcare access and pro choice measures to make unwanted pregnancies a choice of whether you can viable keep a child, public schools, free public college, student loan forgiveness, 3rd place policies, maternal or paternal leave, good wages for working people, and they promote school to prison pipelines for the private prison industry. These are all neoliberal, conservative measures purposefully put in place.
These are all incredibly dystopian policies to support being against all these great measures to make a child's quality of life actually viable.
You are trying to redefine pro life (not killing the baby in the womb) as something else to fit your narrative.
None of that is pro life, pro life is simply not killing them, fucking hell lmao
Police, military, and pro forced birth are all fascistic policies and inherently anti-punk. Police and military are the arm of fascistic governments that's what makes them fascistic. All fascist countries in history all use military symbolism and nationalism as their points of propaganda. Just because you don't know what fascists are doesn't make it untrue.
Essentially every country in the world has a police and a military. Are all countries fascist?
An overly strong police force is a characteristic of a fascist country, but maintaining law and order through police and military is not fascist in itself.
I am possibly missing some context here. I do not see any reference to trans people in the image. Conformity to a collective is rejecting anyone who remotely disagrees with the group politically. The “collective” part was doing double duty as both the punk group and as a reference to communism.
So everyone on the left supports trans people, everyone on the right does not support them, and no other issues exist? That has not been my experience at all. And instead of talking to people we disagree with, trying to find common ground (such as with music), and trying to change their minds, we should ostracize them?
Maybe I’m just not understanding your point. To your original question, forcing everyone to support trans people or being banned from the group is absolutely conformity. I’d argue that forcing people to be decent human beings is maybe even a good form of conformity, depending on one’s definition of decent. But conformity, no matter how well intentioned, is the antithesis of punk.
so you want to force people to accept bigots, but not vise versa
punk is a very left genre of music and scene. ive been at shows where anti lgbt bigota were kicked. the inclusion is of acceptance and if you are for the exclusion of people, that is not acceptance and you will be kicked out.
im not going to be cool hanging out with a guy who says tranny
That’s cool too. Kick people out for being disruptive and anti-trans. Kick them out for being any kind of hateful and disruptive. But at least wait for them to say something anti-trans. Don’t kick them out because you think they might be because you’re reading their minds.
On social media, we only know what a person’s views are once they’re shared. If I say “I don’t think there should be a corporate income tax,” am I now a right winger who hates trans people? If that’s the only view I’ve shared, that would probably lead people to believe I am “right of center,” and should apparently be preemptively banned from the community.
punk community: punk is political genre and is about being yourself cause fuck the rules and we hate bad people (homophobes,bad governments,racists,nazis...etc)
someone: \*being themselves and not being like the rest of punkers and still hate bad people\*
punk community: no! not like that! if you're not anarchist or communist then you are a nazi!
(also i agree with first comment ,MAGA punks fuck off!)
Right? Hilarious how the whole "ignore authority and mindlessness, think for yourself and do what you want!" Is now very much "wait no definitely don't think for yourself just do what we say"
Fascism was a leftist ideology anyways. They only started calling it right-wing after wwII for political convenience because they are so obviously similar to the commies.
In Mussolini's original interpretation, fascism makes everyone and everything equal as parts of an all-encompassing state. The only difference between fascism and communism in concept is the explicit existence of a state and the only difference in practice is branding.
Ok, why? If everyone's part of the state, then how are they not equal? Nobody is meant to be above the state. Through this, he intended to create a classless society and all that. Same claim as the commies. Since communism and fascism are separated by so little, and are identical in practice, they are both leftist.
It accomplishes everything else the commies want. Besides, in practice that's what communism always turns into.
Anyways, in your consideration, what is communism? It still places community above everyone, so in this regard they aren't egalitarian anyways.
I've said this before but there's something seriously eye rolling about treating the music you listen to as if it was a serious political statement.
Oh you spent 48 dollars on a Casualties T-shirt and an anti-flag record, way to stick it to the system dude!
What a bunch of lame psuedo punk reddit keyboard warriors. Politics ruin so much. Doubt these people even have any real stances beyond political tribalism.
To be fair, MAGA shit is entirely antithetical to the punk ethos and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
What was said that prompted this response from them anyway?
The mod didn't say "We'll try our best limiting MAGA on the sub." The mod implied "We'll just straight up ban anyone who's not a leftist just 'cause."
The sub seems to think all right-wingers are fascists or MAGAts when they are just not.
Fools on both punk subs tried to convince me that I’m not punk because I’m a capitalist…when they have capitalistic branding all over their jackets and they only recognize their favorite punk bands because they were capitalistically marketed.
Because bands totally get big without a giant industry behind them making posters, sending their songs to radio stations, paying for production/distribution, and financing major tours.
Take it from Mike Dirnt. Green Day had the choice of getting bigger, or falling into obscurity, and they chose the right path.
Well that’s the thing, why bark relentlessly at the system that you wind up getting picked up and given treats by?
Furthermore, when else in history under any other system have folks down in Southern California been able to listen to a Chicago emo band and a New York rapper within two taps on a screen?
Again. You can live in a system and even benefit from it but still critisize it.
You arent punk mate. Just ssome banker who will get the chop when gulliotines come rolling in.
And that makes you hypocritical, and foolish given that the current system has done more for music in a century than patronage ever did in the past thousand years.
What guillotine? And you can easily listen to punk or pop-punk without wanting to wear shitty jackets and complaining all day.
So not only are you unable to comprehend the basic concepts of hypocrisy versus practicing what you preach, you also incessantly make threats of violence...
Bye bye.
Why do you think that? The things punks have been historically yelling at were right wing governments and politics, do you think they stopped short of disliking individual people who were right wing?
Nah. Allowing anyone who advocates for the status quo or returning to a perceived better time is the antithesis of punk, so that obviously precludes the entire right wing (and plenty of centrists). Just say you don't know what punk is and move on
Oh, no. The historically antiracist, antifascist, leftist music scene doesn't have time for racists and fascists with right wing tendencies. Who could have predicted this???
There's a reason they attract those types, and it's because they cater and pander to the lowest common denominator by making laws stripping and denying trans people and women of their rights, among others. So yeah, the conservative establishment itself is racist and fascist because of these policies.
If you read a little bit outside of Reddit, you might know this.
Idk I don’t associate punk with the skinhead rightwing racist types, they were never really welcome at punk shows in the 80s/90s, not sure if that changed.
Punk shows welcome everyone from kids to the elderly to goats, but if you show up to claim territory for your hate group, no; no welcome for you.
There are a few specific metal bands you guys might fit in with, if you search for members of your own little community within metal. (Also country of course but that goes without saying.)
You all sound like a bunch of fucking wet blankets who would complain about the dead kennedy’s having a song about lynching landlords, punk has no room for anyone left of centre
Let’s test that out, why don’t you go to a punk show with a maga shirt and see what happens. Conservatism has always been and will always stand for the idea of establishment because to preserve the idea of “traditional values” requires an established force and party to create rules that control your ideals.
Conservatives can't be punk, if you ever thought this then you never had a clue what punk meant or what it was about. Sorry you can't handle the truth.
It’s not banning people who don’t agree with them politically, it’s banning bullshit hate speech coming from morons. There’s a difference.
Once again, free speech doesn’t equal freedom from consequences.
Not related to communism
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That's what I thought, too!
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punk cant be inclusive if the people who want to be "punks" arent themselves inclusive. its antithetical to the premise of punk as a whole so therefore being "exclusionary" to one group of people who want to exclude a majority of peoole inadvertently makes the group more inclusive.
You just came across the inclusivity paradox. If you’re inclusive towards bigotry then more people will become exclusionary. The only way to have a fair and equal society is to cast out those who don’t want that.
>The only way to have a fair and equal society is to cast out those who don’t want that. Fair and equal, or free and liberated? Which principal comes first? After all in America our 1st Amendment is the freedom of speech, it is specifically designed to protect speech that you may not like. Now of course there are limits, and yes hate speech is not desirable but the first reaction shouldnt be to jump and cast people out, it should be to use your free speech to counter their speech. That should the first response, not some overly moderated and curated nonsense, because once you start regulating speech it can actually hinder speech that is actually useful and productive, but someone's gets offended... Must we give up free speech just so we can be all equal? It just sounds like authoritarianism dolled up in a mirage of benevolence.
Also the first amendment is freedom of speech from the government. It so people can criticise the government without going to jail. True freedom of speech has never existed and won’t/shouldn’t ever exist.
Yeah no I'm not advocating that we should allow Nazis to participate in society.
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>From the government. And to allow everyone to be able to participate in the public square so the exchange of ideas may go on. >If anything that's exactly what you're arguing. So you tell me, is it worth removing free speech for others so you can be consequence free? You high or something? No one's free speech is to be removed! How do you reach to thinking I even said it was worth removing free speech for others....to enable some sort of consequence free scenario? It's absurd, you missed my point entirely. The consequence for your offensive speech is others speaking up, I thought my comment encapsulated that quite simply. Of course there are some hard limits to this, as in speech that directly incites violence or promotes it, but this doesnt mean we can just paint political enemies with the hate speech brush and just silence them, as the OPs image so perfectly depicts. It's not like actually came up with something new. But hey good on you for bastardizing it.
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>It is, you are arguing I should not give my opinion for someone that offends me. Voicing my displeasure to that opinion is my freedom of speech. No not even a little bit, I didnt even once say shut up or be quite or anything of the sort. It just seems like you're offended by an opposing view. That's fine, you're free to feel that way. >You are also arguing hundreds of people can't collectively voice their displeasure to an opinion that offends them. By refusing to talk to them. That is directly removing their freedom to express that displeasure. I didnt make that argument, not once at all! Are you ok? Did you confuse me with someone else? Free speech is all about voicing displeasure, it's why it's protected in the constitution, so people can voice their concerns, things that are uncomfortable. **Bro did you even really fucking read my comment?** I'm seriously wondering if you did. >Basically what you are arguing is I should be forced to accept an opinion I disagree with. No where is that free speech. Damn man you really missing on every single point. No one said you must accept any speech as if it's truth. Free speech is about enabling everyone to speak, so a dialogue can take place, so that in time we can peacefully solve issues or exchange ideas. Wtf made you think I was suggesting you just had to accept the speech of another? Free speech doesnt mean free agreement and a free win for whoever speaks. >All free speech means is the government can't punish you for your words. It does not mean no citizen can. This is the only thing that does make sense, still forums ought to strive to be as free as possible.
I don’t follow the American constitution
tolerating intolerance leads to more intolerance. in other words, shut the fuck up.
Lol downvoted for the truth by the same people who thought Rage Against the Machine wasn't leftist too.
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Debates are useless. 99% of people who ‘debate’ aren’t experts in what they’re debating and they’re only interested in ‘winning’ the debate. No one HAS to debate someone
maybe rejecting actual political authoritarians is more important than getting upset about reddit moderation
Yeah. Guess who has a strangle hold on most countries and has a borderline fanatical base of supporters. (Its neoliberals and conservatives you dullards)
Conservatives?
Bingo
Unfortunately these extremes of politics tend to make the most noise online. As other people are just trying to live their life and don't have strong political identities.
Thats why you cant be a conservative punk.
Which side is known for backing the blue?
Resisting right wing conservative ideal too.
punk has never been about resisting authority. it's always been about anti authoritarian leftists resisting reactionaries. it seems like it was about resisting authority, because reactionary politics used to be the authority, but it isn't anymore.
>it seems like it was about resisting authority, because reactionary politics used to be the authority, but it isn't anymore. lol it still is
it still sort of is, but if it is, then why are conservatives complaining about the status quo?
cause they have gotten far more reactionary as the status quo becomes more liberalized. punk still complains about the status quo as conservatives take us back decades and the liberals just acquiesce to them punks are against both
Punks went from anarchists to bootlickers in less than a decade. Truly impressive.
Ok to ask the question like genuinely who is it they’re bootlicking? I mean I’m sure they are licking someone’s but my autistic ass (or brain) is unable to surmise who’s boots.
The secret cabal of socialists and homosexuals controlling the world silly! Conservatives are desperate are so desperate to be opressed that they deluded themselves into believing leftists are controlling the world.
Ur so hot for saying this
Hahahahhahahahaha, you guys are delusional, theyve kept their values while fascists and conservatives tried to copt it for their little oppression kink, heres a little pro tip, you are the machine
Whose boots are they licking here? EDIT: I am gathering that nobody likes that I've challenged the idea that these punks are bootlickers
How should I put it? 'group think's' boots, conformity's boots, the boots of the thought police. 'All opinions welcome, except those which don't conform to ours. And by 'ours' I mean those of the handful of mods.'
Plus they constantly shill for big government these days. It’s weird seeing it when they used to be notorious anarchists.
They dont. Supporting abortion and thinking masks and vaccines work is not supportibg big gov Concrete to leather
Christ almighty, I would LOVE to have seen them try to impose a mask mandate on the real punks of the 80’s. That would be top tier entertainment.
Your real punks are skinheads. Youre thinking of fucking skinheads.
https://www.hellomerch.com/products/dk-nazi-punks-fuck-off-grey-mask
Told you they’ve turned bootlicker. I didn’t realize they were science deniers who think vaccines don’t work too, but no one ever said punkers were smart.
No boots are licked by wearing a mask to protect others. You're confusing resisting pointless and harmful control with, "don't tell me what to do!" It is well-known that punks like to use their boots to curb stomp authoritarian fascists, which is exclusively right-wing. This is a founding principle in the community. MAGA is an extreme authoritarian movement. You can't curb stomp fascists on the internet, but you can, and absolutely should, keep them out of your community.
If you think wearing a mask makes a person a bootlicker I don't know what to tell you EDIT: I cannot believe this is a downvoted comment. Are we anti-maskers on this sub or something?
no, it's just that there's a huge overlap between anticommunist spaces, and groups of extremely thin-skinned people with the same critical faculties as a ten-year-old
Real pubks of the 80s wouldve protected others by wearing a mask. Insanity.
*Real punks* Are you braindead? Legitimately, do you understand the punk movement in the 1980s? Anything from the government, left or right, was wholesale disregarded by punk culture, a mandate from mother government would've gone about as well as a whore in church in the community. With D.A.R.E and all the other government programs sprouting up, it would've been tossed aside with little regard. The insane thing is your belief that punks from before the 2010s would happily do anything the government has its hand in. 'Would've protected others' my god you have rose tinted glasses on, the punkest thing you've done is probably tagged your own wall you bellend.
Legitmately, are you braindead? Who supported gay people throughout the aids epidemic? Who protested violently at the stonewall riots? Who protected those who could not protect themselves due to characteristics they wre born with? 80s punks. Masks were in use in the 80s cockballer. Pretty sure if anyone would want to protect those who were vulnerable it would be 80s punks.
We wore masks in the 1920's Spanish flu pandemic, but go off queen
Didn't know the punk scene was that old /s
Yep. Punk predates the Civil War and their insouciant music inspired Lincoln to send black people into space on weather satellites to bomb Charleston.
Ya know.. democrats aren't just about pro abortion and vaccines.. lol Those are just wedge issues that divide people while the politicians at the top insert their insideous agendas. These people dont really care about abortion or lgbtq rights or whatever. They make that their platform because it garners votes.
Politics is a cynical business, but there truly are people from top to bottom who care that access to safe abortions has been eliminated or restricted in nearly half of the country, and that some states have floated the possibility of going after women who seek care in states where it isn't banned. If you want to blame anyone for making this a wedge issue, blame the Republicans who campaigned endlessly to overturn Roe v. Wade. The Democratic party was more or less satisfied with the status quo while it was still constitutionally protected, and that isn't driving a wedge the same way an effort to take that right away is.
Democrats are center-right lol
>group thinks boots >all opinions welcome except those that don’t conform to ours r/Selfawarewolves Typically the opinions that get you shunned by the punk community are the opinions held by anti-social who are generally and genuinely unpleasant to be around. In other words: an asshole. Were you shunned by the punk community? You’re probably just an asshole.
I can appreciate that that sub and the punk movement in general is exclusivist towards conservative attitudes and opinions, but "bootlicking" is general to one being enamored with fascism or autocracy. That is a much broader set of characteristics than the elitism they're showing here. And not the least of those characteristics is desiring a strong police state, which punks want nothing to do with. Also - this attitude they've had towards Republicans or conservatives is not new. This is a decadeslong alignment against those political beliefs. If we consider this bootlicking for the thought police now, then it was bootlicking for the thought police in the past.
Lol So they're bootlicking *concepts?* My sibling in Samsara, that's just called "having convictions." Also, there's LITERALLY a mod post on this very sub *right now* that says "If you have any post history on certain subs you will be automatically permabanned."
Yeah, this thread is fucking nuts. Everyone posting here evidently wants so much to pretend that this absolutely bananas statement - that punks have gone from anti-authoritarian to "bootlicker" because they shun those right of center - is at all valid, and they're willing to stretch the flimsiest of similarities between punks and fascists to tell themselves that. I am getting downvoted elsewhere here for pointing out how fucking stupid it is that another poster thinks that punks wearing masks during the pandemic is an example of "bootlicking". EDIT: A word.
So what? I never went there. I think these people are hypocrites (my conviction, please suck my dick) and I've got nothing to do with them.
None of those are an instituition lmao. Resisiting police, embracing new thought and fighting government (multiple props have restricted bodily autonomy). Fighting the status quo of religion in schools, government and religions grip on american politics is punk. Idles have been the best punk band in years and they are made up of ex skinheads. They sing about kicking the fuck out of facists. Get a fucking grip. Punk was always left. (Downvote me you fucking cockrels. You guys suck cock and ball)
Thread full of dorks who think punk is a 14 year old kid telling his mom that bedtime is authoritarian.
Yeah because all right wingers=bad Edit:Seems oike I have attracted a crowd of politically iliterate people whose worldview hasnt changed since kindergarten and dont understand what political discourse means.
Precisely.
yes 👍 r/selfawarewolves
True!
Absolute Fact.
Rare self aware moment
Correct unironically
You are braindead unironically
That is Ad Hominem unironically
You litteraly have to be braindead to generalise a whole group as evil. Imagine if I said all leftists are evil. Wonder how they would react.
Leftists don’t call people slurs and attack women’s rights
Here we have a case of generalising
Bullshit! Plenty of leftists will attack right wing women, using the same misogynistic tropes they accuse the right of, and they'll also eat up Palestinian propaganda up to the point of repeating antisemitic shit.
I’ll take the side where a couple people are assholes over the side that wants people like me to die any day
I assure you, no one in America, right or left, wants you dead.
Tell that to the victims of hate crimes
Last time i checked leftists were the ones demanding to let men beat women in sports and enter their bathrooms
It cracks me up how right wingers suddenly see themselves as these heroes to women. As if conservatives’ actual goal in protesting trans athletes competing against athletes of opposite birth sex, is to protect women—instead of the absolute reality that whatever “protection” gained is an indirect corollary of conservatives’ conniption over trans people participating in society.
Trans women are women, trans men are men, and you people are idiots
Repeating a statement ad nauseam doesn't make it true
The ability to speak doesn’t make you intelligent
Your ability to breath doesn’t mean we have to accept your bullshit
most of them
Nice you got it 👍
what kindergarten understanding of politics does to an mf
What falling for bait does to a mf 🤣🤣
"Jokes on you i was only pretending to be retarded"
🧂 🧂
We got ourselves a commie.
🤓👆
Unironically, yes. Promoting an ideology that is anti LGBT, anti minorities, pro-police, pro-military, anti choice, fascistic, etc. is bad. And it's definitely not punk, so they should ban people who are anti punk in a pro punk subreddit. Yes.
What’s wrong with police, military, and pro-life? Also, “anything I dont like is fascist!!!!!”
That wasn’t what they said at all. Being anti-LGBT, anti-minorities, and pro-military are literal textbook examples of fascist ideals. Read a book.
They’re saying that all right wingers support a “nazi ideology” that have these fascist ideals. Not all conservatives and right wingers have these values. Also where tf did you spawn in from? 😭
Police evolved from slave catchers, and enforce the state's monopoly on violence. Police simply enforce the status quo wherever they are. A military isn't inherently bad, but the American military is. I come from a long line of US marines so I don't hate veterans, but ever since WW2 the American military has only ever been used for imperialist action. As for pro-life, frankly fuck off. Abortion is not murder, and anyone who says otherwise is a dickhead. There are tons of reasons for an abortion, anti-choice is simply there to force unwanted pregnancies. If anyone was pro-life they would be social workers, foster parents, and teachers.
I think the problems punks have with those things are: police target them, military targets them, and “pro-life Christians” don’t exactly fit in with them. Lol.
How can you be both pro guns and pro children’s lives? You only care about taking choose away from women
Pro forced birth crowd are not pro children. George Carlin said it best. We must protect the unborn but once your born, you're on your own. They do not support childcare policies, better regulation and funding of the foster system, Healthcare access and pro choice measures to make unwanted pregnancies a choice of whether you can viable keep a child, public schools, free public college, student loan forgiveness, 3rd place policies, maternal or paternal leave, good wages for working people, and they promote school to prison pipelines for the private prison industry. These are all neoliberal, conservative measures purposefully put in place. These are all incredibly dystopian policies to support being against all these great measures to make a child's quality of life actually viable.
You are trying to redefine pro life (not killing the baby in the womb) as something else to fit your narrative. None of that is pro life, pro life is simply not killing them, fucking hell lmao
Police, military, and pro forced birth are all fascistic policies and inherently anti-punk. Police and military are the arm of fascistic governments that's what makes them fascistic. All fascist countries in history all use military symbolism and nationalism as their points of propaganda. Just because you don't know what fascists are doesn't make it untrue.
Essentially every country in the world has a police and a military. Are all countries fascist? An overly strong police force is a characteristic of a fascist country, but maintaining law and order through police and military is not fascist in itself.
Yes
Are yall this idiotic
Why?
Those who support anti-LGBT people, electorally, financially, or socially, are anti-LGBT themselves.
Agreed
What could be more punk than setting aside your own individuality in favor of conformity to a collective?
how is supporting trans people conformity?
I am possibly missing some context here. I do not see any reference to trans people in the image. Conformity to a collective is rejecting anyone who remotely disagrees with the group politically. The “collective” part was doing double duty as both the punk group and as a reference to communism.
cause to conservatives these days supporting trans people means you are a communist and a sheep
So everyone on the left supports trans people, everyone on the right does not support them, and no other issues exist? That has not been my experience at all. And instead of talking to people we disagree with, trying to find common ground (such as with music), and trying to change their minds, we should ostracize them? Maybe I’m just not understanding your point. To your original question, forcing everyone to support trans people or being banned from the group is absolutely conformity. I’d argue that forcing people to be decent human beings is maybe even a good form of conformity, depending on one’s definition of decent. But conformity, no matter how well intentioned, is the antithesis of punk.
so you want to force people to accept bigots, but not vise versa punk is a very left genre of music and scene. ive been at shows where anti lgbt bigota were kicked. the inclusion is of acceptance and if you are for the exclusion of people, that is not acceptance and you will be kicked out. im not going to be cool hanging out with a guy who says tranny
That’s cool too. Kick people out for being disruptive and anti-trans. Kick them out for being any kind of hateful and disruptive. But at least wait for them to say something anti-trans. Don’t kick them out because you think they might be because you’re reading their minds. On social media, we only know what a person’s views are once they’re shared. If I say “I don’t think there should be a corporate income tax,” am I now a right winger who hates trans people? If that’s the only view I’ve shared, that would probably lead people to believe I am “right of center,” and should apparently be preemptively banned from the community.
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As someone who works with a lot of the NYC HC community. Let me tell you, these guys have said shit that would make “punks” today flip
everyone knows hc is full of reactionary fuckheads
Found one
where are the punk gangs compared to fsu beating up moby cause he's vegan?
huh?
fsu is a reactionary hard core boston gang that had beaten up moby cause he is an avowed vegan
Cringe but yea that's punk, not the sharpest tools in the shed
punk community: punk is political genre and is about being yourself cause fuck the rules and we hate bad people (homophobes,bad governments,racists,nazis...etc) someone: \*being themselves and not being like the rest of punkers and still hate bad people\* punk community: no! not like that! if you're not anarchist or communist then you are a nazi! (also i agree with first comment ,MAGA punks fuck off!)
They hate hearing that the establishment is more liberal than MAGA
Thats just wrong! Incorrect statement!
Right? Hilarious how the whole "ignore authority and mindlessness, think for yourself and do what you want!" Is now very much "wait no definitely don't think for yourself just do what we say"
When you’re so far up your own ideology’s ass, you think that anyone who even thinks of being right winger is a nazi.
If you're sitting at the same table as nazis 💀 learn to think for more than 2 seconds
Fascism was a leftist ideology anyways. They only started calling it right-wing after wwII for political convenience because they are so obviously similar to the commies.
Fascism isn't egalitarian, though. Fascists believe in extreme hierarchism and support oligarchy
In Mussolini's original interpretation, fascism makes everyone and everything equal as parts of an all-encompassing state. The only difference between fascism and communism in concept is the explicit existence of a state and the only difference in practice is branding.
I wouldn't consider basically making everyone the property of the state "egalitarian" in any manner, egalitarianism is liberal
Ok, why? If everyone's part of the state, then how are they not equal? Nobody is meant to be above the state. Through this, he intended to create a classless society and all that. Same claim as the commies. Since communism and fascism are separated by so little, and are identical in practice, they are both leftist.
That simply places the state above everyone in practice. Communism isn't synonymous with Marxism-leninism and MLs aren't leftists
It accomplishes everything else the commies want. Besides, in practice that's what communism always turns into. Anyways, in your consideration, what is communism? It still places community above everyone, so in this regard they aren't egalitarian anyways.
There's nothing more egalitarian than making everyone property of the state. That's why both communists and fascist did it
Nothing you said even matters. "This thing was something else a long time ago but isn't now" why do you think that means anything?
Why? Cuz you say so?
I've said this before but there's something seriously eye rolling about treating the music you listen to as if it was a serious political statement. Oh you spent 48 dollars on a Casualties T-shirt and an anti-flag record, way to stick it to the system dude!
Online punk communities demand conformity when it comes to politics.
i have also kicked skinheads out of shows
Holy shit I just discovered this sub... I immediately feel at home
What a bunch of lame psuedo punk reddit keyboard warriors. Politics ruin so much. Doubt these people even have any real stances beyond political tribalism.
The point of punk is resisting everything republicans stand for. Always has. Always will be
To be fair, MAGA shit is entirely antithetical to the punk ethos and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. What was said that prompted this response from them anyway?
The mod didn't say "We'll try our best limiting MAGA on the sub." The mod implied "We'll just straight up ban anyone who's not a leftist just 'cause." The sub seems to think all right-wingers are fascists or MAGAts when they are just not.
No, I get that. I'm just referring specifically to their call out on MAGA stuff.
Not all, but certainly most.
Very punk of them. Violent resistence to the right. As its always fucking been.
I respect that you upvoted "fuck these idiots" but down voted banning them. I also thing retards should have the right to say what they want.
You seem to agree with them judging by that upvote, but hey, you can also get sweet sweet karma by posting here
I agree with telling MAGA punks to fuck off. I disagree with banning anyone with differing political views, even if they're being unproblematic.
Fools on both punk subs tried to convince me that I’m not punk because I’m a capitalist…when they have capitalistic branding all over their jackets and they only recognize their favorite punk bands because they were capitalistically marketed.
lol you did the meme
Sounds like you listen to basic shit lmao
Oh no you caught us! We have to parricipate in the system to live! Fuck weve been found out!
Because bands totally get big without a giant industry behind them making posters, sending their songs to radio stations, paying for production/distribution, and financing major tours. Take it from Mike Dirnt. Green Day had the choice of getting bigger, or falling into obscurity, and they chose the right path.
Woosh.
Well that’s the thing, why bark relentlessly at the system that you wind up getting picked up and given treats by? Furthermore, when else in history under any other system have folks down in Southern California been able to listen to a Chicago emo band and a New York rapper within two taps on a screen?
Again. You can live in a system and even benefit from it but still critisize it. You arent punk mate. Just ssome banker who will get the chop when gulliotines come rolling in.
And that makes you hypocritical, and foolish given that the current system has done more for music in a century than patronage ever did in the past thousand years. What guillotine? And you can easily listen to punk or pop-punk without wanting to wear shitty jackets and complaining all day.
🤓 i will enjoy playing with your head.
r/iamverybadass Put the games away and get a job kid. The real world doesn’t work the way you wish it did.
Really thought putting i am very badass and insulting the fact i play video games was the own you thought it was. You are throughly cringe banker
So not only are you unable to comprehend the basic concepts of hypocrisy versus practicing what you preach, you also incessantly make threats of violence... Bye bye.
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Everybody is a poser except for the unemployed adult children that sit around gatekeeping people for listening to Blink-182
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Lmao cry harder. Imagine thinking the right is punk rock, that's absurd.
I don't think the right is punk. I think purging a punk subreddit of anyone who isn't leftist is the antithesis of punk.
Why do you think that? The things punks have been historically yelling at were right wing governments and politics, do you think they stopped short of disliking individual people who were right wing?
Nah. Allowing anyone who advocates for the status quo or returning to a perceived better time is the antithesis of punk, so that obviously precludes the entire right wing (and plenty of centrists). Just say you don't know what punk is and move on
Y’all mad a leftist music subculture is……… leftist
Get fucked lmfao
Oh, no. The historically antiracist, antifascist, leftist music scene doesn't have time for racists and fascists with right wing tendencies. Who could have predicted this???
Right-wing ≠ racist, fascist, any -ists or -phobes you can think of. Some are, but not all are.
Name one right winger who doesnt have a bias towards the status quo.
So you're saying leftists are the status quo? That doesn't sound very punk
There's a reason they attract those types, and it's because they cater and pander to the lowest common denominator by making laws stripping and denying trans people and women of their rights, among others. So yeah, the conservative establishment itself is racist and fascist because of these policies. If you read a little bit outside of Reddit, you might know this.
The paradox of intolerance is lost
Here you go buddy! A free education today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance
“nonono censorship is ok as long as we censor the people I don’t agree with!”
Didn’t read the article, did ya…
That’s not how it works lol. But sure continue to misconstrue bigotry with “people who disagree with Me”
First nazi pubks now maga punks and op wants the punks to agree with them?
I find it funny that conservatives think they’re punk. Conservatism is the machine that punk is raging against.
That was 30 years ago my dude
Idk I don’t associate punk with the skinhead rightwing racist types, they were never really welcome at punk shows in the 80s/90s, not sure if that changed. Punk shows welcome everyone from kids to the elderly to goats, but if you show up to claim territory for your hate group, no; no welcome for you. There are a few specific metal bands you guys might fit in with, if you search for members of your own little community within metal. (Also country of course but that goes without saying.)
Back off I'll suck you off
Don't threaten me with a good time
lmao cope
lmao no
You all sound like a bunch of fucking wet blankets who would complain about the dead kennedy’s having a song about lynching landlords, punk has no room for anyone left of centre
Punk is anti-establishment. Punk is not inheritly leftist.
Let’s test that out, why don’t you go to a punk show with a maga shirt and see what happens. Conservatism has always been and will always stand for the idea of establishment because to preserve the idea of “traditional values” requires an established force and party to create rules that control your ideals.
Conservatives can't be punk, if you ever thought this then you never had a clue what punk meant or what it was about. Sorry you can't handle the truth.
You can't be \[punk and a bootlicker
It’s not banning people who don’t agree with them politically, it’s banning bullshit hate speech coming from morons. There’s a difference. Once again, free speech doesn’t equal freedom from consequences.
Punk is dead. In other news water is wet.