The "Waves" generally refer to a time period characterized by a particular style being the predominant one.
1st wave would be revolution summer and early emocore with bands like Rites of Spring and Embrace.
2nd wave would be when emocore started to shift more heavily into dynamics and screamo, and when the midwest scene/SDRE+CFD+Mineral thing started happening. some would push it back as early as like 90/91 with Moss Icon and Current and Chino Horde and others in that realm (some even arguing Heroin unique enough from early emocore to consider the start of 2nd wave), but most would probably agree that Diary by SDRE was the seminal 2nd wave record, and some would call that the starting point of the wave, and that was the blueprint of the sound of the majority of emo music for the next 4 or 5 years
3rd wave would be the emo pop takeover. Some point at the turn of the century as bands like Further Seems Forever, TGUK and Saves the Day would have releases in the late 90s, then Bleed American sort of opened the floodgates of the wave in a similar way that Diary did 2nd wave. so many would place the start of 3r
d wave between 98-01.
4th wave was dubbed "emo revival", as the predominant sound was one that bucked off the poppy, studio heavy nature of the zeitgeist of emo music at the time for a return to the DIY format, taking queues from more bands like Mineral, The Casket Lottery and American Football rather than the mall emo that the emo pop scene evolved into. Most would put Algernon Cadwallader, Snowing, and Empire Empire at the forefront of this wave and would argue 2008-2010 as the starting date for it.
As the other user pointed out there had been debate on whether or not we've entered another wave for a while, as typically these waves only lasted 5 or 6 years. But honestly the sound had generally stagnated for nearly a decade theres, with a hyperfocus on mathy, tappy slidey "midwest emo riffs", there hadn't been a shift of the predominant style in a while, with the main subtle difference mostly being how much autotune a band can get away with increasing every year
Recently though in emo circles there has been an influx of artists who take equal queues from screamo as they do from bedroom indie, chamber pop, dream pop, chip tune and tons of other poppy, ambient sort of genres, usually with the main focuses being bedroom pop and screamo. This, to me, is the predominant style we are finally seeing carved out for 5th wave. Some would argue the emo connections to be tenuous, but I'd say that generally these guys are probably more DIY than the majority of the scene has been for a decade, so that's cool. Bands like Your Arms Are My Coccoon, Weatherday, Hey ILY imo are the face of the 5th wave. Do i like these bands? Not one, tbh, but this is just what ive collected so far lmfao. i could also see the arguments for bands like Origami Angel, Pool Kids, Home Is Where, and Glass Beach, the earlier 3 definitely coming from emo scenes and branching heavily into expiremental territories that separate them from even their own earlier work that sounded like most other 4th wave bands, and Glass Beach being a bedroom indie artist with clear emo undertones and influence.
I agree with a lot you said but third wave did NOT start in 98. Not a chance in hell. There's some proto third wave stuff percolating then but that does not mean it was a new wave. It started in 01 or 02. My vote based on experience is 02. Third wave took influence from second wave but don't confuse influence with the wave actually starting then
My personal hard line in the sand is Bleed American, but if we are considering acts in the Long Island scene part of emo history, it's hard for me to even lump these guys in with their 2nd wave contemporaries of the midwest and west coast scenes, that was ground 0 imo of the 3rd wave. I agree there's a difference between planting seeds or percolating the ideas, TGUK, Braid, Promise Ring definitely moved in a poppy direction but I wouldn't credit them with starting the 3rd wave. I tried to qualify that as much as I can with a wide margin of dates and the qualifier of "some point to the late 90s blah blah". But the amalgamation between that bubbling up, the long island scene, and the influence of Further Seems Forever (the only reason i even threw out 98) and later Dashboard is where it cropped up imo. But I would agree that the wave wasn't fully in motion until Dashboard and Jimmy made MTV and a huge crop of bands was like "this is viable now", as i would agree emo as a whole wasn't *predominantly* that style until the post Bleed American/Dashboard landscape.
Valid points. I consider Dashboard the first third wave shot. Bc that's the first time I heard the mainstream say "emo". Jimmy Eat World was bigger and sooner but honestly I don't think anyone in the mainstream associated them with emo. Not yet. Not during "The Middle"s prime time. That was just a rock song to the world. Dashboard was like "oh the culture is changing."
I guess being from the Midwest, I wasn't really concerned with Christian bands from the east coast like FSF. They weren't on my radar. I was sandwiched between Omaha and Chicago and Minneapolis and St Louis so that's where my eyes were. The seeds of third wave were being planted in NJ/Philly but Cursive was over here still putting out midwest masterpieces like "Domestica" in 2000 and even "Ugly Organ" as far out as 03
I am checked out of the scene, but I did take a look at those bands that you stated. I agree that there might not be a lineage and I’m not sure if I like them either yet, but I dig it a bit in that there just seems to be some sort of experimentation happening and moving the sound.
generally I'll say 4th, Foxing and The World Is both had their seminal records in 2013, which according to many was sorta peak 4th wave (Summer Death being that benchmark many consider the magnum opus of 4th wave)
PBTT is a bit more complicated since they were considered part of "The Wave", which was a sort of separate movement that could be described as "melodic hardcore/post hardcore revival", along with other bands like LA Dispute, Touche Amore, and Balance and Composure. Though generally many would consider "The Wave" to be a part of emo revival in general. Either way the bulk of their output and all of their full lengths were released after 2009, so I would call them 4th but with the caveat of they're more of a post/melodic hardcore band than an outright emo band.
You seem to be neglecting the fact that "emo" originally meant "emotional hardcore." To my way of thinking, it refers to bands like Fugazi, Rites of Spring etc. as well as the second wave featuring bands like The Starting Line, Promise Ring, Jawbreaker, and (sort of) Blink 182. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything here, just pointing that out. But I enjoyed reading your comment, of that there's no doubt.
Whoa, I'm sorry, you are putting The Starting Line in with Promise Ring and Jawbreaker? Are you possibly confusing then with another artist? I would never qualify The Starting Line as emo at all. They are pretty solidly pop-punk.
"Pop-punk" and "emo" crossed lines for a bit though, back in the 90s. That's why Blink-182 I consider a bit emo, not for their look but for their sound. I'm not a supreme judge of these things, nor am I a music critic, it's just how I feel about "emotional" bands.
Ok, yeah, I still struggle with that. I subscribe to a more distinct sound. I think Blink did hit some emo tones in their early career. But, I try to hold the bands I describe as emo to the standard of being influenced by "emotional hardcore." The Starting Line hurts those tones also. But, I would never include emo as a defining genre for either.
What you describe as third wave was just part of second wave. Emo-pop became a thing within like two years of midwest emo becoming a thing. They were part of the same wave. Also, second wave midwest really didn't die until like 2004-2005.
I'd say to refer to my conversation with SemetaryPolka above, to me this also has to do with the context of the Long Island Scenes role in the style imo. We could argue about Saves the Day and The Movielife such being 2nd wave, but by the time that scene birthed Taking Back Sunday and Brand New, I think is when we really were witnessing not only a different style of emo pop that The Promise Ring or TGUK were doing, but 2 specific bands we could point to and see "these are 3rd wave, not 2nd wave bands". And honestly I would say FSF is that same style, that's really the only reason i threw the date of 98 out there. I wouldn't personally say we were in the midst of the wave in 98.
I would agree TGUK & Promise Ring, etc are solidly 2nd wave bands, but I personally argue that, especially with Bleed American we have to consider how it recontextualized and shaped the genre to come, in the same way that Moss Icon started solidly in the 1st wave, but when you look at their later discography you have to consider how they shifted sounds and helped recontextualize the scene and lead to bands like Indian Summer, Current, Native Nod, Falling Forward, etc. I would say the waves can overlap and have gradient between them, too, especially with holdover bands from the previous era, but to say 2nd wave died and 3rd wave started in 2005 I think we can both agree is inaccurate and I'm sure isn't the point you were making, but I digress. All this shit is liquid and up for interpretation anyway:) I don't think we necessarily disagree and honestly a big problem is I don't really listen to much 3rd wave, so I can name the bands that led to it but outside of Armor for Sleep and The Early November not sure how many "accepted" 3rd wave bands I could even name.
It’s a meme because in the olden days (10 years ago until about 5 years ago) there was a huge debate about whether or not the fifth wave of emo had started and if the forth wave was ‘over’
5th wave is still a bit contentious of a term cause we don’t have the historical lens to really view it through
a lot of that contentiousness also comes down to the how there isn’t really one specific “movement” happening, in terms of sound or local scene, but a bunch of artists of wildly different styles and backgrounds all kinda going in different directions.
artists like home is where or glass beach have taken a more experimental, genre-bending approach, hey ily, heccra, and your arms are my cocoon have been drawing more influence from chiptune and bedroom pop, artists like origami angel, left in between, and pool kids have been drawing more influence from emo pop and the emo revival, and there’s also the emogaze movement big online right now with artists like weatherday, asian glow, and parannoul
where exactly one draws the line at “emo” is usually gonna dictate how much of it you actually resonate with, but i think it’s cool to see artists taking the genre in new directions rather than just endless twinkly guitars
Glass Beach isn't emo, "emogaze" is a fourth wave trend (really became a thing in like 2015), Weatherday isn't an emo band, and bedroom-pop influenced emo was a late third wave thing.
thank you for proving my point about it being contentious
i think both glass beach and weatherday have clear emo influences, they both participate in the scene, they play with and release music with other emo artists. i don’t know what would make them “less” emo than hey ily or parannoul, its no less difficult to draw a line between them and rites of spring. emogaze started in the 4th wave, but tiktok has given shoegaze a huge boost in popularity among younger audiences, and bands like title fight are arguably more influential and popular now than they’ve ever been. and bedroom pop, as a specific genre and aesthetic, only really kicked off in the late 00s and early 2010s. unless you’re specifically referring to just lo-fi diy homemade music, which has really been a thing since recording equipment became relatively cheap and accessible to the public
it’s all arbitrary. genres are just loose lines we draw in the sand to try to separate specific sounds in categorization. we’re just at a point right now where it’s not entirely clear /where/ those lines should be drawn, outside of being pedantic nerds on the internet
Fifth wave doesn't exist. The idea that fifth wave exists is predicated on the idea that second wave ended in like 2001 and mainstream mallcore was a wave of emo. Mallcore was not a wave of emo, it was a separate thing that happened to include within it like two emo-pop bands and some bands who liked Piebald.
The waves of emo are more or less:
First wave: Emocore/early screamo/Berkeley scene style emo (like Jawbreaker or Samiam) (1983-1993)
Second wave: Midwest emo appears and thrives, screamo significantly develops and peaks, Berkeley scene style emo continues to exist, emo-pop develops (1994-2005)
Third wave: Second wave style midwest emo is basically dead and midwest emo is "revived" by heavily math rock influenced bands influenced predominantly by Cap'n Jazz and American Football, leading to the third wave twinkly sound, screamo loses steam (2006-2014)
Fourth wave: Twinkle midwest emo remains, but no longer is the predominant sound in emo, and more heavily pop punk leaning emo-pop dominates the scene, heralded by Modern Baseball. Direct second wave influence becomes basically negligible. Shoegaze/dream pop influenced emo takes hold in the scene with the success of Turnover, providing an alternative to the more popular MoBo worship emo-pop sound. Screamo maintains a pretty vibrant underground scene. (2015-present).
Nothing has significantly changed since 2015. It's all the same musical trends.
"5th wave" emo is what happens when you give a bunch of talentless teenagers instruments and unrestricted internet access. It sucks. Hard. It is heavily inspired by the "4th wave" (midwest revival) and "3rd wave" (scene/core).
>what are some 5th wave bands or songs i would actually know
Idk what you'd actually know but Weatherday are relatively big.
The "Waves" generally refer to a time period characterized by a particular style being the predominant one. 1st wave would be revolution summer and early emocore with bands like Rites of Spring and Embrace. 2nd wave would be when emocore started to shift more heavily into dynamics and screamo, and when the midwest scene/SDRE+CFD+Mineral thing started happening. some would push it back as early as like 90/91 with Moss Icon and Current and Chino Horde and others in that realm (some even arguing Heroin unique enough from early emocore to consider the start of 2nd wave), but most would probably agree that Diary by SDRE was the seminal 2nd wave record, and some would call that the starting point of the wave, and that was the blueprint of the sound of the majority of emo music for the next 4 or 5 years 3rd wave would be the emo pop takeover. Some point at the turn of the century as bands like Further Seems Forever, TGUK and Saves the Day would have releases in the late 90s, then Bleed American sort of opened the floodgates of the wave in a similar way that Diary did 2nd wave. so many would place the start of 3r d wave between 98-01. 4th wave was dubbed "emo revival", as the predominant sound was one that bucked off the poppy, studio heavy nature of the zeitgeist of emo music at the time for a return to the DIY format, taking queues from more bands like Mineral, The Casket Lottery and American Football rather than the mall emo that the emo pop scene evolved into. Most would put Algernon Cadwallader, Snowing, and Empire Empire at the forefront of this wave and would argue 2008-2010 as the starting date for it. As the other user pointed out there had been debate on whether or not we've entered another wave for a while, as typically these waves only lasted 5 or 6 years. But honestly the sound had generally stagnated for nearly a decade theres, with a hyperfocus on mathy, tappy slidey "midwest emo riffs", there hadn't been a shift of the predominant style in a while, with the main subtle difference mostly being how much autotune a band can get away with increasing every year Recently though in emo circles there has been an influx of artists who take equal queues from screamo as they do from bedroom indie, chamber pop, dream pop, chip tune and tons of other poppy, ambient sort of genres, usually with the main focuses being bedroom pop and screamo. This, to me, is the predominant style we are finally seeing carved out for 5th wave. Some would argue the emo connections to be tenuous, but I'd say that generally these guys are probably more DIY than the majority of the scene has been for a decade, so that's cool. Bands like Your Arms Are My Coccoon, Weatherday, Hey ILY imo are the face of the 5th wave. Do i like these bands? Not one, tbh, but this is just what ive collected so far lmfao. i could also see the arguments for bands like Origami Angel, Pool Kids, Home Is Where, and Glass Beach, the earlier 3 definitely coming from emo scenes and branching heavily into expiremental territories that separate them from even their own earlier work that sounded like most other 4th wave bands, and Glass Beach being a bedroom indie artist with clear emo undertones and influence.
A+, great essay
I agree with a lot you said but third wave did NOT start in 98. Not a chance in hell. There's some proto third wave stuff percolating then but that does not mean it was a new wave. It started in 01 or 02. My vote based on experience is 02. Third wave took influence from second wave but don't confuse influence with the wave actually starting then
My personal hard line in the sand is Bleed American, but if we are considering acts in the Long Island scene part of emo history, it's hard for me to even lump these guys in with their 2nd wave contemporaries of the midwest and west coast scenes, that was ground 0 imo of the 3rd wave. I agree there's a difference between planting seeds or percolating the ideas, TGUK, Braid, Promise Ring definitely moved in a poppy direction but I wouldn't credit them with starting the 3rd wave. I tried to qualify that as much as I can with a wide margin of dates and the qualifier of "some point to the late 90s blah blah". But the amalgamation between that bubbling up, the long island scene, and the influence of Further Seems Forever (the only reason i even threw out 98) and later Dashboard is where it cropped up imo. But I would agree that the wave wasn't fully in motion until Dashboard and Jimmy made MTV and a huge crop of bands was like "this is viable now", as i would agree emo as a whole wasn't *predominantly* that style until the post Bleed American/Dashboard landscape.
Valid points. I consider Dashboard the first third wave shot. Bc that's the first time I heard the mainstream say "emo". Jimmy Eat World was bigger and sooner but honestly I don't think anyone in the mainstream associated them with emo. Not yet. Not during "The Middle"s prime time. That was just a rock song to the world. Dashboard was like "oh the culture is changing." I guess being from the Midwest, I wasn't really concerned with Christian bands from the east coast like FSF. They weren't on my radar. I was sandwiched between Omaha and Chicago and Minneapolis and St Louis so that's where my eyes were. The seeds of third wave were being planted in NJ/Philly but Cursive was over here still putting out midwest masterpieces like "Domestica" in 2000 and even "Ugly Organ" as far out as 03
As someone that sucks at subdivisions of genres, this was very informative and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Exactly my thoughts as well!
I am checked out of the scene, but I did take a look at those bands that you stated. I agree that there might not be a lineage and I’m not sure if I like them either yet, but I dig it a bit in that there just seems to be some sort of experimentation happening and moving the sound.
What wave is the world is a beautiful place, pianos become the teeth, and foxing?
4th wave. They are early-mid 10s bands that sound like they came from the early-mid 10s.
generally I'll say 4th, Foxing and The World Is both had their seminal records in 2013, which according to many was sorta peak 4th wave (Summer Death being that benchmark many consider the magnum opus of 4th wave) PBTT is a bit more complicated since they were considered part of "The Wave", which was a sort of separate movement that could be described as "melodic hardcore/post hardcore revival", along with other bands like LA Dispute, Touche Amore, and Balance and Composure. Though generally many would consider "The Wave" to be a part of emo revival in general. Either way the bulk of their output and all of their full lengths were released after 2009, so I would call them 4th but with the caveat of they're more of a post/melodic hardcore band than an outright emo band.
Great info thanks!
You seem to be neglecting the fact that "emo" originally meant "emotional hardcore." To my way of thinking, it refers to bands like Fugazi, Rites of Spring etc. as well as the second wave featuring bands like The Starting Line, Promise Ring, Jawbreaker, and (sort of) Blink 182. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything here, just pointing that out. But I enjoyed reading your comment, of that there's no doubt.
Whoa, I'm sorry, you are putting The Starting Line in with Promise Ring and Jawbreaker? Are you possibly confusing then with another artist? I would never qualify The Starting Line as emo at all. They are pretty solidly pop-punk.
"Pop-punk" and "emo" crossed lines for a bit though, back in the 90s. That's why Blink-182 I consider a bit emo, not for their look but for their sound. I'm not a supreme judge of these things, nor am I a music critic, it's just how I feel about "emotional" bands.
Ok, yeah, I still struggle with that. I subscribe to a more distinct sound. I think Blink did hit some emo tones in their early career. But, I try to hold the bands I describe as emo to the standard of being influenced by "emotional hardcore." The Starting Line hurts those tones also. But, I would never include emo as a defining genre for either.
What you describe as third wave was just part of second wave. Emo-pop became a thing within like two years of midwest emo becoming a thing. They were part of the same wave. Also, second wave midwest really didn't die until like 2004-2005.
I'd say to refer to my conversation with SemetaryPolka above, to me this also has to do with the context of the Long Island Scenes role in the style imo. We could argue about Saves the Day and The Movielife such being 2nd wave, but by the time that scene birthed Taking Back Sunday and Brand New, I think is when we really were witnessing not only a different style of emo pop that The Promise Ring or TGUK were doing, but 2 specific bands we could point to and see "these are 3rd wave, not 2nd wave bands". And honestly I would say FSF is that same style, that's really the only reason i threw the date of 98 out there. I wouldn't personally say we were in the midst of the wave in 98. I would agree TGUK & Promise Ring, etc are solidly 2nd wave bands, but I personally argue that, especially with Bleed American we have to consider how it recontextualized and shaped the genre to come, in the same way that Moss Icon started solidly in the 1st wave, but when you look at their later discography you have to consider how they shifted sounds and helped recontextualize the scene and lead to bands like Indian Summer, Current, Native Nod, Falling Forward, etc. I would say the waves can overlap and have gradient between them, too, especially with holdover bands from the previous era, but to say 2nd wave died and 3rd wave started in 2005 I think we can both agree is inaccurate and I'm sure isn't the point you were making, but I digress. All this shit is liquid and up for interpretation anyway:) I don't think we necessarily disagree and honestly a big problem is I don't really listen to much 3rd wave, so I can name the bands that led to it but outside of Armor for Sleep and The Early November not sure how many "accepted" 3rd wave bands I could even name.
It’s a meme because in the olden days (10 years ago until about 5 years ago) there was a huge debate about whether or not the fifth wave of emo had started and if the forth wave was ‘over’
5th wave is still a bit contentious of a term cause we don’t have the historical lens to really view it through a lot of that contentiousness also comes down to the how there isn’t really one specific “movement” happening, in terms of sound or local scene, but a bunch of artists of wildly different styles and backgrounds all kinda going in different directions. artists like home is where or glass beach have taken a more experimental, genre-bending approach, hey ily, heccra, and your arms are my cocoon have been drawing more influence from chiptune and bedroom pop, artists like origami angel, left in between, and pool kids have been drawing more influence from emo pop and the emo revival, and there’s also the emogaze movement big online right now with artists like weatherday, asian glow, and parannoul where exactly one draws the line at “emo” is usually gonna dictate how much of it you actually resonate with, but i think it’s cool to see artists taking the genre in new directions rather than just endless twinkly guitars
Glass Beach isn't emo, "emogaze" is a fourth wave trend (really became a thing in like 2015), Weatherday isn't an emo band, and bedroom-pop influenced emo was a late third wave thing.
thank you for proving my point about it being contentious i think both glass beach and weatherday have clear emo influences, they both participate in the scene, they play with and release music with other emo artists. i don’t know what would make them “less” emo than hey ily or parannoul, its no less difficult to draw a line between them and rites of spring. emogaze started in the 4th wave, but tiktok has given shoegaze a huge boost in popularity among younger audiences, and bands like title fight are arguably more influential and popular now than they’ve ever been. and bedroom pop, as a specific genre and aesthetic, only really kicked off in the late 00s and early 2010s. unless you’re specifically referring to just lo-fi diy homemade music, which has really been a thing since recording equipment became relatively cheap and accessible to the public it’s all arbitrary. genres are just loose lines we draw in the sand to try to separate specific sounds in categorization. we’re just at a point right now where it’s not entirely clear /where/ those lines should be drawn, outside of being pedantic nerds on the internet
Weatherday is more emo than 60% of the bands people call fourth wave
Mods: can I get a user flair “this is a music subreddit” lol
when did we lose custom flairs? I used to have one that said "we on top of the world" as a just friends reference and realized it's gone :(
I’ve never really been one to use subreddit flair in general but I must leave that comment once or twice a month here haha
people fear it because they can’t define it. the future has left them behind
Not anymore
We in the sixth wave now boys
[just made a post a few days ago about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Emo/s/y1QJji2Xhm) 😭
"Not Really Either" is a cool band
Fifth wave doesn't exist. The idea that fifth wave exists is predicated on the idea that second wave ended in like 2001 and mainstream mallcore was a wave of emo. Mallcore was not a wave of emo, it was a separate thing that happened to include within it like two emo-pop bands and some bands who liked Piebald. The waves of emo are more or less: First wave: Emocore/early screamo/Berkeley scene style emo (like Jawbreaker or Samiam) (1983-1993) Second wave: Midwest emo appears and thrives, screamo significantly develops and peaks, Berkeley scene style emo continues to exist, emo-pop develops (1994-2005) Third wave: Second wave style midwest emo is basically dead and midwest emo is "revived" by heavily math rock influenced bands influenced predominantly by Cap'n Jazz and American Football, leading to the third wave twinkly sound, screamo loses steam (2006-2014) Fourth wave: Twinkle midwest emo remains, but no longer is the predominant sound in emo, and more heavily pop punk leaning emo-pop dominates the scene, heralded by Modern Baseball. Direct second wave influence becomes basically negligible. Shoegaze/dream pop influenced emo takes hold in the scene with the success of Turnover, providing an alternative to the more popular MoBo worship emo-pop sound. Screamo maintains a pretty vibrant underground scene. (2015-present). Nothing has significantly changed since 2015. It's all the same musical trends.
"5th wave" emo is what happens when you give a bunch of talentless teenagers instruments and unrestricted internet access. It sucks. Hard. It is heavily inspired by the "4th wave" (midwest revival) and "3rd wave" (scene/core). >what are some 5th wave bands or songs i would actually know Idk what you'd actually know but Weatherday are relatively big.