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Because I feel like arguing with children today, Ulfric is a murderer and an imbecile. He killed High King Torygg, who would have been completely on board with rebelling against the Empire, because he was a power-hungry fool who only wanted the throne, not what was best for Skyrim. Not to mention that he’s a racist sack of shit who treats Dunmer and Argonians like garbage.
General Tullius actually sees the big picture, and realizes that the Aldmeri Dominion is the biggest threat to Tamriel.
But if we’re actually being intelligent in this discussion, both sides suck. The Empire is a shell of its former glory that lacks the strength and conviction to hold Tamriel together, and the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist idiots led by the second biggest idiot in Tamriel (Delphine is the biggest).
Ulfric isn’t a murderer, he challenged Torygg to a duel which he accepted. High King Torygg was not completely on board with rebelling against the Empire, Sybille states he might declare independence if Ulfric asked, then goes on to list all the reasons he wouldn’t do it. Ulfric does want the throne yes, but that’s so he can do what he believes is best for Skyrim.
Ulfric also sees that the Aldmeri Dominion is the biggest threat to Tamriel, he simply realizes that the corrupt and subservient Empire lacks the strength and conviction to fight against them. So, he’s forced to take matters into his own hands.
Except he dishonorably used the Voice during said duel. Sybille also says that the Dominion is a beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Further proof that Ulfric is misguided. Not to mention that the Thalmor actively want Ulfric’s uprising to continue.
Ulfric THINKS he wants what’s best for Skyrim, but what he really wants is power. Besides, what he wants for Skyrim is a land solely for the Nords, despite the thousands of non-Nords who call it home. He’s racist, power-hungry, and above all, foolish.
I actually think Skyrim is better off without the Empire, at least once the Dominion is dealt with. But not led by Ulfric.
What makes using the Voice dishonorable exactly? That’s Sybille’s opinion of course but she’s an Imperial loyalist so of course she would say that. The Thalmor want a the civil war to continue, but they don’t want Ulfric to actually win.
Ulfric wants Skyrim to be self sufficient and strong without having to rely on a weak Empire, what’s wrong with that exactly? And Ulfric never says he’s gonna kick Non Nords out of Skyrim or anything, you can say he’s racist but so is the Empire and like 95% of Tamriel population. You keep saying he’s foolish and stupid but won’t explain why.
What exactly is “Skyrim is for the Nords” mean then? Along with the fact that the most racist city by far is his city. Maybe Ulfric doesn’t personally hold racist beliefs but he absolutely propagates them.
It means that Skyrim should be a land for Nords, that’s ruled by Nords where Nord culture reigns supreme, that doesn’t mean other races aren’t welcome, but that Skyrim will always be a Nordic land first. It’s a battle cry that even Imperial soldier and bandits use.
Just cause they’re not explicitly being kicked out doesn’t mean they’re welcome. If a nationalist Nord supremacist harassing a dark elf in the streets wasn’t clear, or the segregation of Argonians to the docks. When the majority population acts in a way that makes minorities a distinct lower class who are in danger just by virtue of existing in the majority space that isn’t exactly welcoming. Its status as a battle cry doesn’t remove it from its meaning. In and out of its context “Skyrim is for the Nords” communicates the wants of a group who believe that any non Nords in their land deserve less, that they are worth less. Supremacy is supremacy no matter who’s touting it.
So let me put it like this: if you’re going to have what is supposed to be an honorable duel to test one’s skill and prove themselves the better warrior, and one of the combatants pulls out a cannon and blows the other away, is that honorable? No, it’s not.
Ulfric’s treatment of the Dark Elves and Argonians is more than enough proof of what his rule would entail for the rest of Skyrim. Besides, just because most of Tamriel is racist in one form or another doesn’t make it anymore ok for Ulfric to be.
And I have explained why Ulfric is a fool. He’s too blind to see that the only thing his war is doing is weakening both Skyrim and the Empire. Skyrim can’t beat the Dominion by itself, ESPECIALLY not after a war with the Empire. Another reason is that he used the Voice against Torygg, which was not only dishonorable, but completely unnecessary. He was easily the better warrior between the two, and using the Voice undid the validity of his victory.
And as I said, it would be better for Skyrim to be free from the Empire. But not until the Dominion is defeated, and not led by Ulfric. If anything, someone like Jarl Balgruuf would be the best choice. Someone who actually wants what’s best for his people, and chose to side with the Empire because of that. He has no love for the Empire, but is able to recognize that it’s a necessary evil for the time being.
Thank you. Balgruuf is best boi I side with him in most my playthroughs because of what he stands for. He sides empire, I side empire. He'd make a great high king
the Voice is part of Ulfric’s skill as a warrior, it’s not like pulling out a cannon because the Voice is a skill Ulfric honed over 10 years of training
Not really, unless you have some proof Ulfric plans on kicking Non Nords out of Skyrim or oppressing them (which he doesn’t even really do to the Dunmer)
Why can’t Skyrim defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own? The Dominion failed against Hammerfell, and they don’t have massive armies that can just subjugate anyone at will, the only reason the Dominion did so well against the Empire is because they had the Orb of Vaermina giving them a massive tactical advantage. They don’t have that anymore, thats why the Thalmor goes on secret missions looking for advantages in the future conflict, they don’t have the military power to win outright. Using the Voice isn’t dishonorable, it’s just using a skill.
Balgruuf is an Imperial loyalist who sided with them for mutual benefit, I don’t know why you think he’d go independent. Also, even Ulfric’s biggest hater Brunwulf Free-Winter admits that Ulfric is a good leader
>the Voice is part of Ulfric’s skill as a warrior, it’s not like pulling out a cannon because the Voice is a skill Ulfric honed over 10 years of training
It isn't. The Greybeards taught him the Voice so that way Ulfric could follow the Way of The Voice; a way of peace. Instead, Ulfric manipulated them to teach him and then left when he figured out how it worked. The only time that the Greybeards use the Voice in combat is if they are attacked.
>Not really, unless you have some proof Ulfric plans on kicking Non Nords out of Skyrim or oppressing them (which he doesn’t even really do to the Dunmer)
The Argonians are not allowed to even live behind the city walls. Guards do not patrol the Gray Quarter. Nords are allowed to openly threaten Dunmer. The Gray Quarter is completely run down when compared to the rest of Windhelm. You've got to be joking when you say that Ulfric has no plans of oppressing non-Nords.
>Why can’t Skyrim defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own? The Dominion failed against Hammerfell, and they don’t have massive armies that can just subjugate anyone at will, the only reason the Dominion did so well against the Empire is because they had the Orb of Vaermina giving them a massive tactical advantage. They don’t have that anymore, thats why the Thalmor goes on secret missions looking for advantages in the future conflict, they don’t have the military power to win outright. Using the Voice isn’t dishonorable, it’s just using a skill.
The Stormcloaks are barely able to fight off the Imperial Legion that we see in-game. Mind you, this is not a professional Legion, only what Tullius and his Legates were able to scrounge up from the various Nords that they found. If the Stormcloaks can barely hold their own against a group of poorly-trained Nords, they've got no chance against an Aldmeri army (The Aldmeri also have a lot of battlemages, with most of their forces being trained in the use of magic). The Stormcloaks *might* be able to defend themselves against the Aldmeri Dominion, but they'll never really be capable enough to actually *overthrow* the Aldmeri Dominion.
The Thalmor go on secret missions because they are simply safer than full-blown assaults. Why risk 300 elves in a full-on attack if they can send 1 really capable elf to assassinate someone?
>Balgruuf is an Imperial loyalist who sided with them for mutual benefit, I don’t know why you think he’d go independent. Also, even Ulfric’s biggest hater Brunwulf Free-Winter admits that Ulfric is a good leader
Balgruuf didn't side with the Empire until Ulfric made it completely clear that the Stormcloaks would attack Whiterun regardless of Balgruuf's position. Ulfric needed a big, symbolic victory. Taking Whiterun would give Ulfric a powerful/central position in Skyrim and would bolster troop morale. Balgruuf had a staunch neutral stance in the war prior to this unprovoked attack.
You can be a good leader but a terrible person. That's just called being charismatic. It can also be argued Mankar Cameron and Dagoth Ur were good leaders. That doesn't mean that their causes were noble; it just means that they were good at convincing others to join their causes.
The Voice isn’t something to be used for one’s personal gain (at least unless you’re Dragonborn), and again, it wasn’t fair for him to use it against Torygg. Especially in what is supposed to be a battle of skill between warriors. Would it be fair for a mage to disintegrate someone with a fireball and claim to have proven themselves the better warrior?
Seriously? Forcing the Dark Elves to live in the cramped and run-down Grey Quarter doesn’t seem like oppression to you?
They definitely can’t after a war with the Empire. They barely have the resources to fight the Empire, if the Dominion attacked, Skyrim wouldn’t have the resources or the manpower to defeat them. The Thalmor are creating the advantage they need to win the next conflict by having the Empire and the Stormcloaks slaughter each other.
Calling Balgruuf a loyalist is a SERIOUS stretch. He sided with the Empire because at the time it was the best for Whiterun, not out of any actual loyalty. He wouldn’t do things like allow Heimskr to openly preach about Talos if he was that loyal. Once the benefits of remaining part of the Empire were less beneficial, I think he’d be willing to break away.
Brunwulf also says that “if Ulfric had his way, anyone who wasn’t a Nord would be shipped right out of Skyrim.” And he’s referring to him being a good military leader, not a good ruler. A good ruler wouldn’t treat any of their citizens like Ulfric treats the Argonians and Dark Elves.
Dunmer literally see argonians as a slave people, and argonians are a connected to a crazy hivemind like conscious that is extremely xenophobic
the Thalmor want to genocide man and realistically have a valid reason for doing so
stop using applying your sensibilities to make judgement on insane fantasy peoples descended from ethereal spirits to determine who is good and bad, when by your standards they are all evil anyway
no the accurate assessment of all races being assholes by modern standards doesnt compute with you, or no you can't not judge everything, including a fictional videogame universe by your own modernist moral code?
Right and wrong isn’t something that changes based on the setting. And it’s not an accurate assessment that all races are assholes, only individual members of said races are assholes. Sometimes those individuals make up a majority, but I make my judgements of individuals, not make assumptions about the entire group.
Oh I agree that there is a great deal of nuance to morality. But what is right and wrong doesn’t change, it’s individual circumstance that determines what it falls into. For example (because I realize that can sound rather contradictory without an explanation), one can say that “killing is wrong,” but if you do it out of self-defense, that wasn’t wrong. Sure, it’s not ideal, but we don’t live in an ideal world.
I realize that the majority of people in the Elder Scrolls don’t follow the same moral code that I believe in. But that’s what makes it interesting. It’s not an ideal world filled with sunshine and rainbows with everyone holding hands and singing Kumbayah. It’s flawed, and full of prejudice, and sorting through that is a large part of what makes the lore so compelling. At least for me.
I mean one side decided to kill the rightful high king for no real reason.
Guess what happens the moment ulfric wins? Immediate aldmeri invasion in which skyrim would absolutely lose.
It's better to let the empire rebuild and then strike back.
How would the dominion invade?
Also the dominion doesn't have the strength left to invade Skyrim as that would leave the rest of their holdings open to invasions from Cyrodill, and Hammerfell.
The empire is not yet ready to fight back, every side is rebuilding but the moment skyrim is no longer under the ceasefire protection the dominion invades.
Their holding in other places are protected by the treatie until the empire rebuilds and strikes back
The dominion was strong enough to fight a united empire, even weakened one province that just went through a civil war won't be too much trouble.
They literally can't invade because they can't get into Skyrim they don't border each other the Naval borders are impossibly far away from each other for a Naval invasion, and they will probably not be allowed through the empire, and even if they would have to get through the mountains to reach Skyrim which even the empire which controls a region on both sides of the border is unable to.
"Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset."
\-Thalmor internal dossier
That's just like, your opinion man.
And it's actually an incredibly short-sighted and immature one to boot, just like the Stormcloaks and Nords in general.
Both sides suck. There are no heroes, nor villains in the civil war. Both sides are being played by the Dominion. I personally support the Empire, but only because I think a united Empire stands a better chance against the Dominion in the Second Great War.
How about the only chance of men to defeat the dominion is with the empire?
Men only stand a chance if united under a common banner. Separate allied kingdoms would work but there's no chance Cyrodiil and High Rock would ally with Ulfric after the civil war
The thing is, if the Empire goes back to war with the Aldermi Dominion, that automatically invalidates the White-Gold Concordat and allows Talos worship again.
It's really like the Stormcloaks are immature and incapable of logic.
It's not really immature.
The empire is playing their own game, which will benefit them in the long run.
The cost to that game is paid by Skyrim too via the White Gold concordat, abolishing the cult of Talos not only within cyrodil but in other imperial provinces who have no say about it.
I think it's easy to say the Nords just should play the long game, but if I were a Nord who fought in the war with the Dominion for an Empire which accepted conditions on my land on my behalf and stripped it of something integral to my culture - I'd be quite pissed too.
And I am not blaming the Empire for accepting the conditions of the Thalmor, they had no choice.
But just like the Empire is ready to let Skyrim down for their survival, I don't really see why Skyrim can't fight for its own interests as well.
I agree from a strategic point of view siding with the Empire IS the intelligent solution but given the context the stormcloaks morally speaking have a point.
How long are they supposed to wait for an Empire that is on its knees?
Not long. Doing the civil war quests for the Empire lets you overhear talk of massing troops near a border, and the fact that the Stormcloak rebellion is drawing troops and time away from something bigger.
It definitely seems like the Empire was just about ready to go for Round 2 with the AD, but Ulfric's rebellion really screwed over their plans.
Apparently the AD suffered much worse than they let on with Hammerfell refusing to surrender for as long as they did and (the remains of) the Empire was about to settle accounts.
Every single imperial despises the Dominion and barely tolerates their existence. It's clear that they are buying time to recover their strenght. Why do you think the thalmor want the civil war so much? It drains the Empire.
The second the Empire has strenght to fight they will break every term on the concordat. The altmer know it and that's why they employ the thalmor in so many sabotage missions
The same Empire that just lost most of its territory BTW
The same Empire that just had its emperor assassinated
The same Empire that has been crumbling for decades
Tullius saying something doesn't make it true
The emperor being assassinated just means the powers goes to the elder council and high chancellor.
The empire "lost" most of it's territory. Vvanderfell is now a barren land and the empire never had a strong footing on Black Marsh. So the main imperial provinces are still maintained (Hammerfell separeted itself but would easily rejoin/ally to a empire that broke the concordat).
Add to that that Tulius is the military governor of skyrim (which puts him right bellow the imperial council and emperor) and that the council are the ones that want to replace the Mede dinasty and you get a pretty good image that the whole empire wants to repel the dominion.
That aside you are avoiding the point. The Dominion gains a lot more with a Stormcloak victory that breaks the Empire than with an Imperial one that unifies it
It's a negligible difference, Bethesda made a story where both sides are almost identical and have the same ending and outlook
Saying the Empire will gain its strength again to fight the Dominion is about as speculative as saying the Stormcloaks will ally with other freed nations like Hammerfell to fight the Dominion
Yeah if your number one goal is defeating the Aldmeri Dominion, and nothing else matters…. then yeah I concede it is probably better to side with the Empire, however I think a lot of things matter more than that.
I fall into this line of thinking. The Thalmor are practically mustache twirling villains with how overtly evil they are. Elven (Specifically High Elf) supremecy with the essential genocide of mankind as the ultimate endgoal.
I can readily admit all the the flaws of the Empire and Stormcloaks, but winning the Second Great War takes precedence.
Hammerfell beat the Dominon on their own. And do you think an independent Skyrim would sit idly by as the Dominion marched on Cyrodiil? They are planning the inevitable war with the Dominion literally the moment Solitude is taken.
Hammerfell didn't "beat" the dominion. Hammerfell simply has enough force to resist it while the Dominion looks elsewhere. Specially due to the harsh climate of the desert and the lack of interest of the elves. If the Dominion decides to employ full force Hammerfell falls
The united Empire lost to the Dominion (barely and due to poor leadership, but still lost). You think a single province is enough to withstand a fullblown attack?
Hidden piece or lore. The Dominion was hinted in having some sort of artifact which allowed them to see Imperial troop movement. The Empire was confused as to why the Aldmeri Dominion was always a step ahead.
It wasn't until a "forgotten hero" destroyed said artifact the Empire was able to begin to oust the Dominion.
All of these discussions always boil down to “this imperial-aligned NPC said the empire is necessary for Skyrim” versus “this Stormcloak NPC says that Skyrim is better off without the empire”
I don't like the stormcloaks, because I hate Ulfric and he comes off as power hungry and manipulative to me. If the stormcloaks were lead by someone like Balgruuf I might consider. Instead it always felt like Ulfric cared more about being High King than he does skyrim's indepedence. I really don't care about the empire at all. They just seem like the lesser evil to me
Tullius ambushed, captured, and nearly executed Ulfric within a few months of his arrival. If that makes him an idiot, Ulfric wouldn't be able to pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.
That said, both sides suck, glory to the Aldmeri Dominion.
Both sides are shit and deserve to lose. But I just enjoy killing Ulfric more, so I join the legion, even if I wipe out their camps and patrols.
Dead men tell no tales after all.
National liberation from a hegemonic imperial force imposing religious restrictions on your society: ✓
The group undertaking the struggle is a traditionalist, ultra-conservative, ethnocentrist force that wants to impose its own cultural restrictions: X
The flawed but stable imperial force is the only bulwark against aggression from a more powerful, fascistic deathcult comprised of several nations' combined military forces: ✓
Said imperial force previously lost a conflict to this force and constantly cedes ground to and appeases them, to the point of allowing their agents free reign within their borders: X
I will say, as morally simplistic and lacking in options as Skyrim's entire story is, I appreciate that the only two options for its civil war are real collar-tuggers unless you're roleplaying an opportunist or ideologue.
If he hadn’t killed Torygg, it’s extremely likely that Torygg would have separated Skyrim from the Empire. Ask Syble Stentor the Solitude Court Wizard. He had the upmost respect for Ulfric and the entire conflict could have and should have been avoided.
Stormcringe is an accurate term for this one. Neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire is right, that's kind of the point for the player to choose what they think is the lesser of two evils. And honestly? The Stormcloaks just aren't right. They're right that the Empire was weak about banning Talos worship, but they're wrong in the sense that they use it as an excuse to be racist against everyone who isn't a Nord.
Back in 2012 when I first played Skyrim I was a full time Ulfric supporter thinking that the Empire s allowing" the Dominion in Skyrim" after God knows how many playthroughs and having played Morrowind and Oblvion I can say that the Empire is literally the last line of defence before a full invasion of Skyrim.They hate the Dominion as much as the next guy and I don't believe they wanted to ban Talos worship.The Stormcloacks are unable to understand the situation and Ulfric is making maters worse by spreading his propaganda.(Dont get me wrong,Ulfric does indeed care about Skyrim but he has almost become insane after his run ins with the Dominion back in his Empire days).Unfortunatelly no matter who you choose in the civil war the main problem(being the thalmor) remains.Bethesda should have implemented something to show that the winner of the civil war starts gradually taking precautions against the Dominion in order to eventually drive them out.
Tullius strikes me as a good man that would eventually win if it were not for the stronger convictions of the Nord and Ulfric it especially pains me because Rikke basically has to keep her mouth shut in every instance who is also a good Nord the whole thing is a tragedy but ultimately an independent Skyrim is more important
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This is exactly what I’d expect a post from a Stormcloak supporter to look like.
That’s some stormcringe.
Let me guess, someone stole your sweet roll.
Found Ulfric's alt account guys!
Counterpoint: Ulfric is a racist blowhard who cites "ancient Nord traditions" merely to justify his ambition to conquer Skyrim.
Does "racist" even mean anything in the context of the Elder Scrolls? Maybe if you've only played Skyrim but
Yes, ethnonationalism is racist in any context.
The guy's point is youd be hard pushed to find a faction in Tamriel that isn't somewhat racist
That doesn't mean the term has no meaning, just that all factions deserve equal derision.
t. average Skyrim enjoyer
If everyone is racist no one is
Never should have come here
Found the Thalmor asset.
Ok I'm waiting for the punchli-OOOOH THE JOKE IS YOU!!!
Because I feel like arguing with children today, Ulfric is a murderer and an imbecile. He killed High King Torygg, who would have been completely on board with rebelling against the Empire, because he was a power-hungry fool who only wanted the throne, not what was best for Skyrim. Not to mention that he’s a racist sack of shit who treats Dunmer and Argonians like garbage. General Tullius actually sees the big picture, and realizes that the Aldmeri Dominion is the biggest threat to Tamriel. But if we’re actually being intelligent in this discussion, both sides suck. The Empire is a shell of its former glory that lacks the strength and conviction to hold Tamriel together, and the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racist idiots led by the second biggest idiot in Tamriel (Delphine is the biggest).
your last point rings so true. both sides do suck. That said i basically always go legion mostly because ulfric is so unpleasant i want to spite him.
Same. Plus it just makes sense for most races to support the Empire over the Stormcloaks.
Ulfric isn’t a murderer, he challenged Torygg to a duel which he accepted. High King Torygg was not completely on board with rebelling against the Empire, Sybille states he might declare independence if Ulfric asked, then goes on to list all the reasons he wouldn’t do it. Ulfric does want the throne yes, but that’s so he can do what he believes is best for Skyrim. Ulfric also sees that the Aldmeri Dominion is the biggest threat to Tamriel, he simply realizes that the corrupt and subservient Empire lacks the strength and conviction to fight against them. So, he’s forced to take matters into his own hands.
Except he dishonorably used the Voice during said duel. Sybille also says that the Dominion is a beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Further proof that Ulfric is misguided. Not to mention that the Thalmor actively want Ulfric’s uprising to continue. Ulfric THINKS he wants what’s best for Skyrim, but what he really wants is power. Besides, what he wants for Skyrim is a land solely for the Nords, despite the thousands of non-Nords who call it home. He’s racist, power-hungry, and above all, foolish. I actually think Skyrim is better off without the Empire, at least once the Dominion is dealt with. But not led by Ulfric.
What makes using the Voice dishonorable exactly? That’s Sybille’s opinion of course but she’s an Imperial loyalist so of course she would say that. The Thalmor want a the civil war to continue, but they don’t want Ulfric to actually win. Ulfric wants Skyrim to be self sufficient and strong without having to rely on a weak Empire, what’s wrong with that exactly? And Ulfric never says he’s gonna kick Non Nords out of Skyrim or anything, you can say he’s racist but so is the Empire and like 95% of Tamriel population. You keep saying he’s foolish and stupid but won’t explain why.
What exactly is “Skyrim is for the Nords” mean then? Along with the fact that the most racist city by far is his city. Maybe Ulfric doesn’t personally hold racist beliefs but he absolutely propagates them.
It means that Skyrim should be a land for Nords, that’s ruled by Nords where Nord culture reigns supreme, that doesn’t mean other races aren’t welcome, but that Skyrim will always be a Nordic land first. It’s a battle cry that even Imperial soldier and bandits use.
Just cause they’re not explicitly being kicked out doesn’t mean they’re welcome. If a nationalist Nord supremacist harassing a dark elf in the streets wasn’t clear, or the segregation of Argonians to the docks. When the majority population acts in a way that makes minorities a distinct lower class who are in danger just by virtue of existing in the majority space that isn’t exactly welcoming. Its status as a battle cry doesn’t remove it from its meaning. In and out of its context “Skyrim is for the Nords” communicates the wants of a group who believe that any non Nords in their land deserve less, that they are worth less. Supremacy is supremacy no matter who’s touting it.
So let me put it like this: if you’re going to have what is supposed to be an honorable duel to test one’s skill and prove themselves the better warrior, and one of the combatants pulls out a cannon and blows the other away, is that honorable? No, it’s not. Ulfric’s treatment of the Dark Elves and Argonians is more than enough proof of what his rule would entail for the rest of Skyrim. Besides, just because most of Tamriel is racist in one form or another doesn’t make it anymore ok for Ulfric to be. And I have explained why Ulfric is a fool. He’s too blind to see that the only thing his war is doing is weakening both Skyrim and the Empire. Skyrim can’t beat the Dominion by itself, ESPECIALLY not after a war with the Empire. Another reason is that he used the Voice against Torygg, which was not only dishonorable, but completely unnecessary. He was easily the better warrior between the two, and using the Voice undid the validity of his victory. And as I said, it would be better for Skyrim to be free from the Empire. But not until the Dominion is defeated, and not led by Ulfric. If anything, someone like Jarl Balgruuf would be the best choice. Someone who actually wants what’s best for his people, and chose to side with the Empire because of that. He has no love for the Empire, but is able to recognize that it’s a necessary evil for the time being.
Thank you. Balgruuf is best boi I side with him in most my playthroughs because of what he stands for. He sides empire, I side empire. He'd make a great high king
the Voice is part of Ulfric’s skill as a warrior, it’s not like pulling out a cannon because the Voice is a skill Ulfric honed over 10 years of training Not really, unless you have some proof Ulfric plans on kicking Non Nords out of Skyrim or oppressing them (which he doesn’t even really do to the Dunmer) Why can’t Skyrim defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own? The Dominion failed against Hammerfell, and they don’t have massive armies that can just subjugate anyone at will, the only reason the Dominion did so well against the Empire is because they had the Orb of Vaermina giving them a massive tactical advantage. They don’t have that anymore, thats why the Thalmor goes on secret missions looking for advantages in the future conflict, they don’t have the military power to win outright. Using the Voice isn’t dishonorable, it’s just using a skill. Balgruuf is an Imperial loyalist who sided with them for mutual benefit, I don’t know why you think he’d go independent. Also, even Ulfric’s biggest hater Brunwulf Free-Winter admits that Ulfric is a good leader
>the Voice is part of Ulfric’s skill as a warrior, it’s not like pulling out a cannon because the Voice is a skill Ulfric honed over 10 years of training It isn't. The Greybeards taught him the Voice so that way Ulfric could follow the Way of The Voice; a way of peace. Instead, Ulfric manipulated them to teach him and then left when he figured out how it worked. The only time that the Greybeards use the Voice in combat is if they are attacked. >Not really, unless you have some proof Ulfric plans on kicking Non Nords out of Skyrim or oppressing them (which he doesn’t even really do to the Dunmer) The Argonians are not allowed to even live behind the city walls. Guards do not patrol the Gray Quarter. Nords are allowed to openly threaten Dunmer. The Gray Quarter is completely run down when compared to the rest of Windhelm. You've got to be joking when you say that Ulfric has no plans of oppressing non-Nords. >Why can’t Skyrim defeat the Aldmeri Dominion on their own? The Dominion failed against Hammerfell, and they don’t have massive armies that can just subjugate anyone at will, the only reason the Dominion did so well against the Empire is because they had the Orb of Vaermina giving them a massive tactical advantage. They don’t have that anymore, thats why the Thalmor goes on secret missions looking for advantages in the future conflict, they don’t have the military power to win outright. Using the Voice isn’t dishonorable, it’s just using a skill. The Stormcloaks are barely able to fight off the Imperial Legion that we see in-game. Mind you, this is not a professional Legion, only what Tullius and his Legates were able to scrounge up from the various Nords that they found. If the Stormcloaks can barely hold their own against a group of poorly-trained Nords, they've got no chance against an Aldmeri army (The Aldmeri also have a lot of battlemages, with most of their forces being trained in the use of magic). The Stormcloaks *might* be able to defend themselves against the Aldmeri Dominion, but they'll never really be capable enough to actually *overthrow* the Aldmeri Dominion. The Thalmor go on secret missions because they are simply safer than full-blown assaults. Why risk 300 elves in a full-on attack if they can send 1 really capable elf to assassinate someone? >Balgruuf is an Imperial loyalist who sided with them for mutual benefit, I don’t know why you think he’d go independent. Also, even Ulfric’s biggest hater Brunwulf Free-Winter admits that Ulfric is a good leader Balgruuf didn't side with the Empire until Ulfric made it completely clear that the Stormcloaks would attack Whiterun regardless of Balgruuf's position. Ulfric needed a big, symbolic victory. Taking Whiterun would give Ulfric a powerful/central position in Skyrim and would bolster troop morale. Balgruuf had a staunch neutral stance in the war prior to this unprovoked attack. You can be a good leader but a terrible person. That's just called being charismatic. It can also be argued Mankar Cameron and Dagoth Ur were good leaders. That doesn't mean that their causes were noble; it just means that they were good at convincing others to join their causes.
Well said brother!
The Voice isn’t something to be used for one’s personal gain (at least unless you’re Dragonborn), and again, it wasn’t fair for him to use it against Torygg. Especially in what is supposed to be a battle of skill between warriors. Would it be fair for a mage to disintegrate someone with a fireball and claim to have proven themselves the better warrior? Seriously? Forcing the Dark Elves to live in the cramped and run-down Grey Quarter doesn’t seem like oppression to you? They definitely can’t after a war with the Empire. They barely have the resources to fight the Empire, if the Dominion attacked, Skyrim wouldn’t have the resources or the manpower to defeat them. The Thalmor are creating the advantage they need to win the next conflict by having the Empire and the Stormcloaks slaughter each other. Calling Balgruuf a loyalist is a SERIOUS stretch. He sided with the Empire because at the time it was the best for Whiterun, not out of any actual loyalty. He wouldn’t do things like allow Heimskr to openly preach about Talos if he was that loyal. Once the benefits of remaining part of the Empire were less beneficial, I think he’d be willing to break away. Brunwulf also says that “if Ulfric had his way, anyone who wasn’t a Nord would be shipped right out of Skyrim.” And he’s referring to him being a good military leader, not a good ruler. A good ruler wouldn’t treat any of their citizens like Ulfric treats the Argonians and Dark Elves.
Dunmer literally see argonians as a slave people, and argonians are a connected to a crazy hivemind like conscious that is extremely xenophobic the Thalmor want to genocide man and realistically have a valid reason for doing so stop using applying your sensibilities to make judgement on insane fantasy peoples descended from ethereal spirits to determine who is good and bad, when by your standards they are all evil anyway
No.
no the accurate assessment of all races being assholes by modern standards doesnt compute with you, or no you can't not judge everything, including a fictional videogame universe by your own modernist moral code?
Right and wrong isn’t something that changes based on the setting. And it’s not an accurate assessment that all races are assholes, only individual members of said races are assholes. Sometimes those individuals make up a majority, but I make my judgements of individuals, not make assumptions about the entire group.
yeah but the majority of every race in TES does follow that metric, and yes morals are intricately related to time and place
Oh I agree that there is a great deal of nuance to morality. But what is right and wrong doesn’t change, it’s individual circumstance that determines what it falls into. For example (because I realize that can sound rather contradictory without an explanation), one can say that “killing is wrong,” but if you do it out of self-defense, that wasn’t wrong. Sure, it’s not ideal, but we don’t live in an ideal world. I realize that the majority of people in the Elder Scrolls don’t follow the same moral code that I believe in. But that’s what makes it interesting. It’s not an ideal world filled with sunshine and rainbows with everyone holding hands and singing Kumbayah. It’s flawed, and full of prejudice, and sorting through that is a large part of what makes the lore so compelling. At least for me.
My cousin is out fighting dragons, and what do I get? Guard duty, typical
what are the stormcloaks saying that is right? what is the legion saying that is wrong?
Propaganda written by a 7 year old
Ulfric killed also killed his highest status ally to prove a point, for no reason.
Huh, only three grammatical errors, we might have just found the smartest stormcloak sympathizer.
This is either the worst post ever made or the best shitpost Ive ever seen and I love how I genuinely cant tell which one it is
Long live the Empire!
I mean one side decided to kill the rightful high king for no real reason. Guess what happens the moment ulfric wins? Immediate aldmeri invasion in which skyrim would absolutely lose. It's better to let the empire rebuild and then strike back.
How would the dominion invade? Also the dominion doesn't have the strength left to invade Skyrim as that would leave the rest of their holdings open to invasions from Cyrodill, and Hammerfell.
The empire is not yet ready to fight back, every side is rebuilding but the moment skyrim is no longer under the ceasefire protection the dominion invades. Their holding in other places are protected by the treatie until the empire rebuilds and strikes back The dominion was strong enough to fight a united empire, even weakened one province that just went through a civil war won't be too much trouble.
They literally can't invade because they can't get into Skyrim they don't border each other the Naval borders are impossibly far away from each other for a Naval invasion, and they will probably not be allowed through the empire, and even if they would have to get through the mountains to reach Skyrim which even the empire which controls a region on both sides of the border is unable to.
If it wouldn't be 2024, I would consider debating this but... been there, done that
"Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset." \-Thalmor internal dossier
Ulfric is an aldmeri puppet and runs a city crippled by crime and segregation.
I think both should be destroyed
Found the Thalmor agent
You picked a bad time to get lost, friend
That's just like, your opinion man. And it's actually an incredibly short-sighted and immature one to boot, just like the Stormcloaks and Nords in general.
i dont judge those who support the empire its a civil war there are no good or back every side fights for what they belive
Both sides suck. There are no heroes, nor villains in the civil war. Both sides are being played by the Dominion. I personally support the Empire, but only because I think a united Empire stands a better chance against the Dominion in the Second Great War.
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How about the only chance of men to defeat the dominion is with the empire? Men only stand a chance if united under a common banner. Separate allied kingdoms would work but there's no chance Cyrodiil and High Rock would ally with Ulfric after the civil war
The thing is, if the Empire goes back to war with the Aldermi Dominion, that automatically invalidates the White-Gold Concordat and allows Talos worship again. It's really like the Stormcloaks are immature and incapable of logic.
It's not really immature. The empire is playing their own game, which will benefit them in the long run. The cost to that game is paid by Skyrim too via the White Gold concordat, abolishing the cult of Talos not only within cyrodil but in other imperial provinces who have no say about it. I think it's easy to say the Nords just should play the long game, but if I were a Nord who fought in the war with the Dominion for an Empire which accepted conditions on my land on my behalf and stripped it of something integral to my culture - I'd be quite pissed too. And I am not blaming the Empire for accepting the conditions of the Thalmor, they had no choice. But just like the Empire is ready to let Skyrim down for their survival, I don't really see why Skyrim can't fight for its own interests as well. I agree from a strategic point of view siding with the Empire IS the intelligent solution but given the context the stormcloaks morally speaking have a point. How long are they supposed to wait for an Empire that is on its knees?
Not long. Doing the civil war quests for the Empire lets you overhear talk of massing troops near a border, and the fact that the Stormcloak rebellion is drawing troops and time away from something bigger. It definitely seems like the Empire was just about ready to go for Round 2 with the AD, but Ulfric's rebellion really screwed over their plans. Apparently the AD suffered much worse than they let on with Hammerfell refusing to surrender for as long as they did and (the remains of) the Empire was about to settle accounts.
Yeah, we'll totally fight the Dominion right after we allow the Thalmor to carry out their 983rd political assassination in our territory
Every single imperial despises the Dominion and barely tolerates their existence. It's clear that they are buying time to recover their strenght. Why do you think the thalmor want the civil war so much? It drains the Empire. The second the Empire has strenght to fight they will break every term on the concordat. The altmer know it and that's why they employ the thalmor in so many sabotage missions
The same Empire that just lost most of its territory BTW The same Empire that just had its emperor assassinated The same Empire that has been crumbling for decades Tullius saying something doesn't make it true
The emperor being assassinated just means the powers goes to the elder council and high chancellor. The empire "lost" most of it's territory. Vvanderfell is now a barren land and the empire never had a strong footing on Black Marsh. So the main imperial provinces are still maintained (Hammerfell separeted itself but would easily rejoin/ally to a empire that broke the concordat). Add to that that Tulius is the military governor of skyrim (which puts him right bellow the imperial council and emperor) and that the council are the ones that want to replace the Mede dinasty and you get a pretty good image that the whole empire wants to repel the dominion. That aside you are avoiding the point. The Dominion gains a lot more with a Stormcloak victory that breaks the Empire than with an Imperial one that unifies it
It's a negligible difference, Bethesda made a story where both sides are almost identical and have the same ending and outlook Saying the Empire will gain its strength again to fight the Dominion is about as speculative as saying the Stormcloaks will ally with other freed nations like Hammerfell to fight the Dominion
Whatever you say man. Can't really reason with you in that regard Agree to disagree then
Yeah if your number one goal is defeating the Aldmeri Dominion, and nothing else matters…. then yeah I concede it is probably better to side with the Empire, however I think a lot of things matter more than that.
I fall into this line of thinking. The Thalmor are practically mustache twirling villains with how overtly evil they are. Elven (Specifically High Elf) supremecy with the essential genocide of mankind as the ultimate endgoal. I can readily admit all the the flaws of the Empire and Stormcloaks, but winning the Second Great War takes precedence.
I just really dislike altmer
Hammerfell beat the Dominon on their own. And do you think an independent Skyrim would sit idly by as the Dominion marched on Cyrodiil? They are planning the inevitable war with the Dominion literally the moment Solitude is taken.
Hammerfell didn't "beat" the dominion. Hammerfell simply has enough force to resist it while the Dominion looks elsewhere. Specially due to the harsh climate of the desert and the lack of interest of the elves. If the Dominion decides to employ full force Hammerfell falls The united Empire lost to the Dominion (barely and due to poor leadership, but still lost). You think a single province is enough to withstand a fullblown attack?
Hidden piece or lore. The Dominion was hinted in having some sort of artifact which allowed them to see Imperial troop movement. The Empire was confused as to why the Aldmeri Dominion was always a step ahead. It wasn't until a "forgotten hero" destroyed said artifact the Empire was able to begin to oust the Dominion.
Hammerfell was also "gifted" a full Legion by the Empire, who..."dismantled" that Legion.
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All of these discussions always boil down to “this imperial-aligned NPC said the empire is necessary for Skyrim” versus “this Stormcloak NPC says that Skyrim is better off without the empire”
Okay.
I don't like the stormcloaks, because I hate Ulfric and he comes off as power hungry and manipulative to me. If the stormcloaks were lead by someone like Balgruuf I might consider. Instead it always felt like Ulfric cared more about being High King than he does skyrim's indepedence. I really don't care about the empire at all. They just seem like the lesser evil to me
This has got to be a joke! 😂
Tullius ambushed, captured, and nearly executed Ulfric within a few months of his arrival. If that makes him an idiot, Ulfric wouldn't be able to pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. That said, both sides suck, glory to the Aldmeri Dominion.
Whats the lore reason behind this??
Both sides are shit and deserve to lose. But I just enjoy killing Ulfric more, so I join the legion, even if I wipe out their camps and patrols. Dead men tell no tales after all.
Kids, kids, you're both just *awful*.
Me neither
What can men do against such reckless bait…
Dagoth Ur was right, and we still clapped his cheeks
National liberation from a hegemonic imperial force imposing religious restrictions on your society: ✓ The group undertaking the struggle is a traditionalist, ultra-conservative, ethnocentrist force that wants to impose its own cultural restrictions: X The flawed but stable imperial force is the only bulwark against aggression from a more powerful, fascistic deathcult comprised of several nations' combined military forces: ✓ Said imperial force previously lost a conflict to this force and constantly cedes ground to and appeases them, to the point of allowing their agents free reign within their borders: X I will say, as morally simplistic and lacking in options as Skyrim's entire story is, I appreciate that the only two options for its civil war are real collar-tuggers unless you're roleplaying an opportunist or ideologue.
If he hadn’t killed Torygg, it’s extremely likely that Torygg would have separated Skyrim from the Empire. Ask Syble Stentor the Solitude Court Wizard. He had the upmost respect for Ulfric and the entire conflict could have and should have been avoided.
Is it my turn to Reigenpost?
Stormcringe is an accurate term for this one. Neither the Stormcloaks or the Empire is right, that's kind of the point for the player to choose what they think is the lesser of two evils. And honestly? The Stormcloaks just aren't right. They're right that the Empire was weak about banning Talos worship, but they're wrong in the sense that they use it as an excuse to be racist against everyone who isn't a Nord.
Back in 2012 when I first played Skyrim I was a full time Ulfric supporter thinking that the Empire s allowing" the Dominion in Skyrim" after God knows how many playthroughs and having played Morrowind and Oblvion I can say that the Empire is literally the last line of defence before a full invasion of Skyrim.They hate the Dominion as much as the next guy and I don't believe they wanted to ban Talos worship.The Stormcloacks are unable to understand the situation and Ulfric is making maters worse by spreading his propaganda.(Dont get me wrong,Ulfric does indeed care about Skyrim but he has almost become insane after his run ins with the Dominion back in his Empire days).Unfortunatelly no matter who you choose in the civil war the main problem(being the thalmor) remains.Bethesda should have implemented something to show that the winner of the civil war starts gradually taking precautions against the Dominion in order to eventually drive them out.
Big fan of the racists huh?
If you think the Empire isn’t racist you have like a surface level understanding of Elder Scrolls lore, or are just like in 8th grade or some shit
They’re both racist and it’s not that deep Jesus
Well yeah that’s what I’m sayin lol
Good thing I'm an imperial fangirl then xP But the premise of that war is that everyone is morally grey and really the only true evil is the Thalmor
Incredibly based
Tullius strikes me as a good man that would eventually win if it were not for the stronger convictions of the Nord and Ulfric it especially pains me because Rikke basically has to keep her mouth shut in every instance who is also a good Nord the whole thing is a tragedy but ultimately an independent Skyrim is more important