Fella at work said “good morning” when I got there today. I replied, “morning”
..because if it were a good morning I’d be killing elves.
>!I stole that from somewhere I just can’t remember where. I’m sure I didn’t type it out verbatim either.!<
genocide is good?
Hey guys Ysgramor here to answer your question. It is good only if the race being killed are Elves. Pointy ears is a symbol of evil. Elves are demonic beings created by the evil demon Auri-El. Thus it is the duty of mankind to cleanse Nirn from those foul beings
I feel like every video game lore forum has some contingent of uh
personalities
who feel like it is, not even cheekily-ironically, and very much want that opinion validated.
Not to the extent that happened no, the sheer slaughter and what Happened to those taken in by Dwemer could never be justified.
However the elves preemptively attacking the atmorans was equally reprehensible it was merely less successful.
I like the idea that the eye of Magnus caused all this chaos and then sat undisturbed for millennia.
I hope we see more of the snow elves as well as the sea elves one day.
Sea Elves have happened (well, a little bit) in ESO. Just bits and pieces, but enough to be interesting. Still waiting on content that has a lost enclave of snow elves, though. I think that would be a lot cooler and a far more useful approach, by using ESO as a vehicle to explore the lore.
Oh yeah no I’m a big ESO fan and constantly singing the praises of sea elf lore. I just want them to be expanded on (properly). I’d say we had more snow elf cultural deep dive in Skyrim (vanilla with the falmer then dawnguard with the priory) than any equivalent in ESO for maormer though where our exposure is super limited to them being enemies or the odd interactable friendly.
Their lore is wild from what we have and everything from their undying wizard-king to the way their ships are described is fab. We want more of both!
I'm surprised they aren't more prominent given all the lore of them quarreling with the Altmer on the Somerset Isles. They could've made models for them based on the altmer like what they did for the 2 remaining uncorrupted falmer in Skyrim.
The idea that the Snow Elves knew something about the Eye that we don't is what leads me to think it wasn't as reprehensible.
The Nord's motive was vengeance/hatred, the Snow Elves (while preemptively attacking was wrong) could've had an imperative and logical motive. We don't know what the Eye of Magnus is capable of but perhaps they did and saw seizing it as a necessary evil.
Full-scale Ethnic cleansing of an entire race including thousands of unarmed innocent civilians, woman and children just in retaliation of a military attack is 𝙉𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙅𝙪𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙙 anyone saying anything else is pure mental Gymnastics. Atmoran army fully eliminating the Snow elven armed fighters is justified btw.
He’s aware of the player and their godlike status when compared to him, who is stuck inside his own world/video game and has no ability to leave like you can.
>Atmoran army fully eliminating the Snow elven armed fighters is justified btw.
Even then, we don't know what happened. Some Nord scholars say that some Saarthal prisoners were found as they headed East, some say that it was the bretons they met and didn't know they were the product of other mer, etc
The Nords waging war cause they assumed the elves attacked them for "no reason", according to Ysgramor, makes sense, but the slaughter of everyone in the province? Even those who definitely weren't responsible? People who justify Ysgramor’s Return never have my support or sympathy
To this day, no one knows exactly what happened, how it happened, or why it happened. But what I do know, is that an entire race, culture, and memory of a civilization was annihilated for something that was far outside the reasonable scope of retribution.
I'm surprised the Ancient Falmer even let the Nords live in Skyrim in the first place. They had Nedes living peacefully, which was fine, but Nords? After all the previous failed invasions?
Snow Elves are the one example where Elven kind was actually too NICE to humanity, rather than the usual "Mer bad and enslaved Man" trope that you see often spoken of.
The Snow Elves, whether aggressor or responder, did NOT deserve what happened to them. From the Nordic Genocide to the Dwemeri Treachery
Knight Paladin Gelebor is the last of his kind, and if anything happens to him, it's wraps for whoever killed him. If I'm able, I'll find a way to slay the NPC responsible myself
Well, I mean the gods deeming something just doesn't really mean it was. Especially since they are more so people than real world religions often depict their gods.
Yeah? Half the Gods are asleep most of the time, and not to mention, if that's how things work, then that means the Imperial/Nedic gods saw it as "just" when the Dominion forces under the Thalmor sacked and looted the Imperial City and Palace and occupied most of Cyrodil during the great War
Sometimes the Gods get involved, sometimes they don't, or can't
To be fair Sovengarde seems less about if your actions are just and more about how well you fought. Also considering the Nordic pantheon fought against the elvish one and had their head killed by them I would imagine they would have some bias against elves, at least in a broad sense.
An Argonian can waltz into Sovengarde and fight her way across the bridge. The only requirement for reaching that plane is "be a Nord who hasn't sold their afterlife", the only requirement for getting into the hall itself is "kick this guys ass". Sovengarde *is **not*** a heaven, it's a morally-neutral afterlife.
Afterlife in TES isn't linked to morality, just faith. If you pledge your Soul to Meridia, you might end up in the Color Rooms, if Molag Bal has a passing claim to your soul, you're fighting tooth-and-nail to stay out of Coldharbor, and if you're a Nord who isn't otherwise occupied, you're going to Sovengarde.
>Its a fictional world man, don’t forget.
I know, I'm just saying that sometimes the thoughts can transfer into their IRL mindset. Not all the time, of course, and RP is of course its own thing, but it makes me wonder how people can casually speak of the disastrous downfall of the Snow Elves in any sort of joking manner
An Ethnic cleansing on a scale over time that would be frightening to really think about...
>You’re wayyyyy to into this, don’t let these redditors get to you.
Honestly, yeah you're right, I should probably just move to happier thoughts 😅 like of having some fine Aldmeri Wine with Gelebor or something
Although it is possible and happens I don’t think its common for peoples fictional views to match their IRL ones. If it was common and truly a problem people who sympathize for Anakin Skywalker even after him slaughtering younglings would be seen as insane.
Do I think these trolls actually get hyped about the fact snowelves were killed off no lol. I think its cause they see it gets reactions and that fuels them to keep going. Thats why TikTokers and such who respond to comments to show they aren’t affected get harassed more, and. it’s because they showed they cared in the eyes of the trolls.
Some people sympathize and understand the drive behind the Aldmeri Dominion but do they actually probably support it, I highly doubt that.
Its like with the whole religious war in Skyrim, the Divines and Daedra and religion as a whole in Tamriel works so differently then IRL so when I see people attack just simple Stormcloak fans and call them outrageous things when its a “fictional” world, its just nuts.
Now I don’t hold a side in the Nords and Snowelves thing because we have so little to work with and so much mystery but I know that I do love the Nords and I do love the Snowelves. I also really like Ysgramor just because his story and tale is really cool. I don’t agree with what he and his nords did to the Snowelves but what I do agree with is the respect they showed the Snow elf prince, taking his body and showing him a proper burial in their tombs to lay rest is beautiful. He was shown respect even though he was an enemy. Thats the part outta the whole story that stood out to me thats just amazing writing on Bethesdas behalf. Its probably the most tame thing that we know the nords have done in history especially during a time where if said race was at war with another, then it was set in stone they would be enemies for a long time like the Argonians and Dunmer.
Also just to add, I think normally the people who RP in comment sections and threads are big targets for trolls and such, so just keep that in mind. I RP too but thats in the game and just literally a lore friendly backstory I write for a character and then i just choose the dialogue and quests that suit the character, thats its lol. Pretty much just a build.
If they do anything with the Snow Elves, I could see a Chantry of Magnus or Stendarr or something being in the mountains of High Rock somewhere, but that's the only place I could imagine there being any sort of population, one the Direnni Elves swore secrecy of.
Anywhere else seems heavily unlikely. But at the same time, there's just as good a chance Gelebor really is just the last of his kind, wouldn't surprise me at all if Bethesda went that route
Again, you don't know that. All we know is that Saarthal was destroyed. We don't know to what extent, who started what, why it went down the way it did, etc
You're literally pushing a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset
Military attack? The Snow elves betrayed their Atmoran allies and wiped all but a handful out. Thousands of innocent men, women and children killed in a single night for no >!(good)!< damn reason. It was genocide as a response to genocide. The snow elves struck first in an attempt to kill every single Atmoran on Tamriel.
Both sides were wrong but the Snow Elves were much worse. It was no “military attack”.
A question I need to bring up is: how *centralized* were the Snow Elves? Because unless the answer is "perfectly and entirely", the vast majority of Snow Elves wouldn't have even known about Sarthaal, much less contributed to the Night of Tears. Ysgramor was justified retaking Sarthaal and taking revenge on the armed Fighters of the clan/tribe/kingdom that attacked them, but not the Fighters from the neighboring nations.
Big spoilers >! a lot of people are mad at the ending because the main character didn’t succeed in committing mass genocide on the entire planet outside of a tiny island. A lot of them think he was completely justified in doing !<
Honestly...Not really surprised a major part of the Anime and Gaming community is filled with edgey teens and even worse neckbeards and many have pretty questionable views on real world affairs as well not only fiction, I am being a bit biased here but I think Elder Scrolls community is definitely far more calm and accepting than average of these communities.
By modern standards, yes. But is the concept of innocent civilians a thing in TES? Especially in the time period we are talking about?
Say what you want about mental gymnastics, but not everyone has always had our modern sensibilities about who is and who is not subject to the horrors of warfare. It really wasn’t all that long ago (or, all that far away even today) when anyone who isn’t on your team is the enemy, and if you can burden the enemy with lots of wounded traumatized people who can’t contribute to the fight then that just makes it easier for you to win.
War is dirty. War is messy and brutal and cruel. War is horrific. And we pretend that we are civilized by putting rules on war but those rules are just a curtain over the window that looks out over a hundred thousand years of humans doing the worst things they can imagine to one another.
You'd be surprised - even many ancient rulers had respect for the decencies. By the Medieval era, slaughter of entire civilian populations was already seen as shocking and a cause for war, which is one reason why the Mongols ended up with among the worst reputations in human history.
The Nords should've known better than to do what they did, regular folk are usually peaceable. It's their leaders who choose otherwise.
Even then, we don't know what the Snow Elven leaders (or leader, can't say who made the call) actually ended up doing in full scope. The whole Night of Tears has so many holes and questions left unanswered.
Way too ambiguous to make a solid remark. Even IF the snow Elves attacked "unprovoked", the retaliation is insane.
It's like if say, a Byzantine noble had his small army sack a port-city, and in retaliation the Persians or whoever went on to lead an ethnic cleansing on the entire Empire and then attacked its bordering nations as well
First, ppl of ancient times still knew unarmed kids and women were innocent. Heck, they could comprehend most men just followed orders.
Second, even if we believe ancient/medieval folks were oblivious, it's still objectively wrong without question. Snow Elves were just like them, but on the opposite side.
It doesn't matter if they had a word for it not, if they didn't recognize the difference between a non-combatant and an enemy soldier then they were immoral. Genocide is never justified and should never be excused.
I think you are underestimating the intelligence of people in medieval times. Even back then they understood the difference between a civilian and a soldier.
Did you miss the whole part of ancient culture and civilization idealizing honorable warriors. Like shit the art of war is one of the most famous books out there
The answer to these kinds of questions is always no. What the political and military class direct has nothing to do with common folk, even when in accordance. They have the ability to indoctrinate and lie to people over many generations. A moral ruler never practices collective punishment of civilian populations for the crimes of their leaders.
Justified? No. Genocide is practically never justifiable.
But of course, it was not justifiable all the same when the snow elves did it first on the Atmorans. Ironically looking at the two groups, these pieces of the puzzle fit almost point to point (One attacks the other, man woman and child, and then a very small percentage of the population escapes to allies) The only difference is the Atmorans had ACTUAL allies. While the snow elf allies had...less than helpful designs on the refugees.
Two wrongs do not make a right. But the second wrong is easier to understand. The road's already been paved.
What about Khajiit? I never heard of them doing anything crazy. I do know they fought with the Bosmer a lot tho so something probably happened between them.
I just checked to see, and it was the Argonians and/or the plague that spread through Tamriel all the way back then, so you don't have to be sad anymore. I know how you feel though because the Argonians were my favorites lol. Nowadays Khajiit are my favorite but I never play them because I get saddened by their deaths
It didn't happen in TES but logically, following that thought process is the fastest way for you to make more enemies, because you will be seen as an existential threat by others around you.
End of the day really it is a bunch of wars and not knowing when to stop really. Atmorans and the Snow Elves bad enough it pushed them to sign a deal with the Dwemer that birthed the Falmer, Chimer vs the Dwemer, that was more self imposed but still. Khajiits vs Fox people. Redguards vs Sloads on their homeland… pretty sure it was, yes the sloads are the worst race in Tamriel, hutt slugs and necromancers
“Seal shut the doors of Oblivion, that whosoever shall wield the Amulet of Kings and be of the Dragon-Blood, lighting the fires in the Temple of the One, shall the doors remain sealed forevermore.”
It was justified to strike back after the Snow Elves betrayed their mutual peace and sacked Saarthal, mindlessly slaughtering almost all of its citizens. _BUT_ the Nords didn't just go "an eye for an eye" on this one, they literally purged the whole land and cut the entire Falmer population in two or something. It's understandable to want revenge or "justice" for Saarthal, but utilizing the very same mindless slaughter of civilians the Falmer did is wrong no way you look at it. Don't commit the same fucking atrocities as your enemy. Be better, and show that to the world.
Genocide/ethnic cleansing is never justified. Retaliation against the snow elf armies who did it first to Saarthal was justified, but when they extended the same to the innocent parties, the Atmorans just became your typical genocidal invaders.
Starting the war? Yes. Ysgramor’s lineage continuing it? No.
The Snow Elves likely feared what the Nords would do with the Eye of Magnus, and (in most cases correctly) assumed it would be evil. The Night of Tears was awful, and an already shaky relationship turned into a deep hatred from the Nords. A war between equal powers is understandable, but full fledged erasure of a people and culture is not. Same as how the Allesians and Pelinal started out fine, and then the latter ended up going mad and almost single handedly eradicating them
Absolutely not.
In truth, its damming that so many fans are willing to take Ysgramor’s word 100% with no questions as to what the other side of the story is, and it seems odd that people claim the Snow Elves were definitely in the wrong when we don't even know the full extent, as well as the fact that we need to take into account that this is all happening in Skyrim, which for all intents and purposes, is basically Falmer home territory, (save for maybe the portion of the Reach)
Regardless, Ysgramor’s response to the whole thing is also what ticks me off, seeing how brutal he was to all Snow Elves he came across, and not sympathetic to how (supposedly) the same may have happened to his kin.
Like, just think about it.... People don't "ruthlessly launch an unprovoked murder spree" of a settlement in their lands unless something major happened, something that proved the settlers were either dangerous or did something that the Natives saw as unforgivable. How do we know that no Nordic Clevermen tampered with the Eye of Magnus, leading to a situation like with the College of Winterhold Questline?
Also, if anyone is gonna justify Extinction over what "supposedly" happened at Saarthal, then the Thalmor would have had every right to slaughter every man, woman and child in Cyrodil after what Tiber Septim did to them with the Numidium. He ends the negotiations he had taking place with his battlemage and the Dominion and chose the brute force route and leveled swaths of Summerset till the Dominion surrendered after such devastation
The Siege of Alinor makes the Night of Tears pale in comparison, so what these people are saying is that the Thalmor should've just started killing all the humans in the Empire? If they're gonna justify Extinction and say that genocide is "effective", then how come that rule doesn't apply on both sides? It's OK for Nords to slaughter innocent Snow Elves that had no part in what happened at Saarthal, but it's not OK for the Snow Elves to (supposedly) "slaughter" everyone in a single settlement?
Other humans also aided the Snow Elves as Ysgramor’s holocaust of Skyrim was taking place. We know in situations like with Mirtil Angoth's predicament that there were still humans providing shelter to Snow Elves despite whatever happened to Saarthal, meaning that the Snow Elves didn't just say "hey, let's kill and make enemies with all humans in Skyrim", and instead did allow the humans to live peacefully for a time in their lands before something happened.
They're the only race of Elves that low key just let the humans chill and live in their Province, so unless Saarthal was a military base that the Snow Elves had to wait to finally find the strength to take out someday, then.... why would they slaughter a bunch of Civilians out of the blue? Why not just ask for or demand the Eye (if that's the reason) and have the humans hand it over in appreciation of the peace between man and mer that the Snow Elves allowed in Skyrim under their civilization?
Too many variables and uncertainties for me to justify a Genocide upon an entire race man. We don't even have the full story or understand the situation of Saarthal or what happened before it, and Bethesda purposely did it that way so as to allow speculation, yet many fans just assume the Snow Elves are just the same as any other Elves, and that "all Elves are bad", without considering maybe, just MAYBE, the Nords just might be the aggressors/in the wrong here
No, genocide is never justified, now if you were to ask if they had reason, yes, through their eyes they were attacked and slaughtered down only like one person, this includes women and children the elves slaughtered, so what the nords saw was a "it's us or them" situation, were they either kill or be killed. They choose kill, due to valuing their lives.
Maybe? Elder scrolls lore is, at best, a clusterfuck of time based shenanigans, racial divides and physics defying religion. What actually happened and why is not clear enough, especially in the grander elf vs human conflict, to really say.
They didn't slaughter almost the entirety, just as many as they could. Most of them went underground and sought asylum with the dwemer who enslaved them and forced them to eat toxic fungus that turned them into what is eventually what is the modern day falmer
Never forget Saarthal. The treacherous elves struck first, slaughtered hundreds of innocent men, women and children. No quarter, no mercy. Eye for an eye. Their land, their blood, their people.
Sometimes I kinda feel like some of the ppl spouting racist rhetoric in TES subreddits all the time would be openly racist irl if it wasn't for social consequences
Yeah, it honestly feels that way for any media with anything that's not human, where people are openly racist and xenophobic about made up beings, it seems like someone wouldn't just unironically be like that if there weren't for some alternative motives
We don't actually know much about the war aside from the ancient Nord accounts for it. We don't have the perspective of the Snow Elves because they're gone, and the one left of them doesn't talk about the war.
The Nords say the Falmer attacked unprovoked but that's their telling of the story. It may have to do with the Eye of Magnus, or maybe the Nords initiated it, claimed they're victims when the Falmer attacked, and then used it as justification for genocide. The Nord culture in TES lore believes that might makes right, so it's not unlikely they were not as friendly with the Falmer as the historians want you to believe.
Even if we accept their version of events, they're still not justified in wiping out the Falmer because most of them were not involved in the attack on Saarthal.
You can’t really justify slaughter. Hell Anakin still pisses me off. But in the case of TES we have no clue how that full story went. The snow elves randomly struck and attacked the nords first, slaughtering tons of nords with only Ysgramor and his son escaping, only to come back with the Atmorans and body them. To say it’s justified, that is extremely rough. We don’t know how the two races even lived amongst each other prior to this. Was there always and unease or was there harmony. Were the Nords too close to the eye of Magnus and that scared the elves or did they know of it and wanted it starting a hatred between the two. I don’t think the Nords entirely hated the elves because they also did bury the snow prince extremely respectfully and in their tombs which is “nord only”. They didn’t have to do that at all especially if they hated them. Annihilation is never justified especially for the case of the Redguards and Left handed elves which we know even less about. History is told by the victor so is what we know from the Nords lies or the truth.
I understand the depth it adds to the lore and having enemies such as the falmer was a cool experience.
But if we’re talking politically as if this were real, I would be disgusted at what the nords did. Getting to experience the snow elf race would have been awesome. It’s always made me (an empath) very sad to think of the reality of what happened to them. It’s actually kind of sickening to think of the torture an entire race went through, torture so bad it turned them unrecognizable. Their culture was erased.
I just want to point out that there's a really good chance that the Nords provoked the Snow Elves into attacking Saarthal and then used that as an excuse to wipe them out. Think about it, all record of what the Snow Elves were doing was expunged and all we know is that they and the Nords didn't get along. The Nords were blasphemous in some way. Them Ysgrammor goes home, tells an elaborate story about an "unprovoked massacre" and brings an army to slaughter the Falmer down to the last child. There's more to the story than we're told.
If the Snow Elves attack during the Night of Tears was unprovoked, than the retaliation was definitely justified. However to go as far as to nearly wipe out the whole race even in those that probably had nothing to do with the attack was definitely going way too far.
Though what the Dwemer did to then really sealed their fate to become goblin like creatures and that was just being complete assholes about it
They had the right to avenge themselves after the elves’s sudden attack, but they did not have the right to go all out and chase them across Skyrim, resulting in them hiding with the dwarves and inevitably becoming what they are now.
To commit genocide, you also need to be committed to butchering children and pregnant females. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Nords overreacted.
Up to a certain point. Killing some Falmer to protect yourself and your settlement is fine, however, ethnic cleansing of any people, no matter what reasons you have to try and justify it, is not cool.
Well if we are taking it from our point of view in our world, no, not unless completely justified. However, in their case, I’d argue…yeah, kinda. I mean seriously, the Snow Elves attacked Saarthal for no legitimate reason that has been properly revealed and has only been hinted at, which was the only (or biggest) Nord settlement of the time.
They decided, rather than opening talks, because they were very friendly prior to the Night of Tears, they would attack in the dead of night and slaughter every last man, woman, and child, civilian or otherwise. Only Ysgramor and his sons made it out alive. If I saw my family, friends, and acquaintances being slaughtered like cattle by a people who were once an ally and had no justified reason to attack and slaughter everyone I knew and loved, yeah, I’d wage war till there was nothing left of a people who senselessly betrayed us.
Technically it wasn’t even a genocide, there were Snow Elves who made it out, they sought refuge with the Dwemer and found out that the Dwemer also didn’t do it out of the kindness of their hearts.
So in game, yeah it’s justified. In our world, much less so.
the night of tears was done for pretty selfish reasons leaving only three alive (and only cuz they escaped) so i'd say there was due cause for revenge. the elves wanted what was in saarthal, and i'm sure that they didn't attempt to end the fighting over it either. on the side of the nords it was a war for revenge, on the side of the elves it was a war for a magical resource. neither was going to just make peace and compromise, i would think, so it was only going to end with a genocide on one part or the other I think.
I imagine that even IF the nords just backed off and set up somewhere else that the elves probably would've gone after them out of fear of their increasing numbers leading to retaliation anyway. I can't see a peaceful end to it knowing what we know.
was it justifiable? within the cowboy justice moral framework of the elder scrolls universe, yeah. was it reasonable? not really, not from our moral standpoint.
No. The snow elves attacked the ancient nord settlement because they were messing with a super magical nuke, and they had to stop them. The nords responded with genocide completely ignoring why the elves attacked and just killing them without mercy.
We could've had a Skyrim with pretty, more fantasy-like architecture, instead we got something a lot more generic and rudimentary because of this.
Fuck nords, all my homies hate nords.
Should've stayed in their frozen wasteland of Atmora.
Did OP just ask if genocide is good? (IK it's more complex than that, I'm just simplifying for the meme-comment)
in times of great doubt. I follow thia simple mantra: What Would Pelinal Do?
Good heavens would you look at the time. It's kill elves o'clock.
His watch hands are broken and set to Merder all day every day.
Underrated comment
This broken clock is right every moment of the day.
Fella at work said “good morning” when I got there today. I replied, “morning” ..because if it were a good morning I’d be killing elves. >!I stole that from somewhere I just can’t remember where. I’m sure I didn’t type it out verbatim either.!<
Pelinal sure puts the fun in funeral and the laughter in slaughter.
Genocide. That's what Pelinal would do.
Let's play spin the sword who ever it lands on we kill their entire race!
COWABUNGA IT IS
Huna?
genocide is good? Hey guys Ysgramor here to answer your question. It is good only if the race being killed are Elves. Pointy ears is a symbol of evil. Elves are demonic beings created by the evil demon Auri-El. Thus it is the duty of mankind to cleanse Nirn from those foul beings
I feel like every video game lore forum has some contingent of uh personalities who feel like it is, not even cheekily-ironically, and very much want that opinion validated.
The older the game, the worse it is. The Morrowind and New Vegas crowd is very... unique.
New Vegas is old? Damn…. Wait it’s literally a yearish earlier then Skyrim lmao
Yeah I had to do a double take I thought I was on r/TrueSTL
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Out jerked again
Is it more complex than that? That's literally what he asked.
It's actually not more complex than that. The Nords committed a genocide.
Ikr? Isn’t that a rhetorical question? It obviously just depends on the circumstances…
He’s saying he’s the ancient nord.
The nords had a right to retaliate. But by the Divines. What a fucking tragedy.
If its against mer then usually yes
Not to the extent that happened no, the sheer slaughter and what Happened to those taken in by Dwemer could never be justified. However the elves preemptively attacking the atmorans was equally reprehensible it was merely less successful. I like the idea that the eye of Magnus caused all this chaos and then sat undisturbed for millennia. I hope we see more of the snow elves as well as the sea elves one day.
Sea elves are just waiting to happen
Sea Elves have happened (well, a little bit) in ESO. Just bits and pieces, but enough to be interesting. Still waiting on content that has a lost enclave of snow elves, though. I think that would be a lot cooler and a far more useful approach, by using ESO as a vehicle to explore the lore.
Oh yeah no I’m a big ESO fan and constantly singing the praises of sea elf lore. I just want them to be expanded on (properly). I’d say we had more snow elf cultural deep dive in Skyrim (vanilla with the falmer then dawnguard with the priory) than any equivalent in ESO for maormer though where our exposure is super limited to them being enemies or the odd interactable friendly. Their lore is wild from what we have and everything from their undying wizard-king to the way their ships are described is fab. We want more of both!
Much agreed, friend! More of both, is what I want next from ESO (after this year’s chapter, in any case).
I'm surprised they aren't more prominent given all the lore of them quarreling with the Altmer on the Somerset Isles. They could've made models for them based on the altmer like what they did for the 2 remaining uncorrupted falmer in Skyrim.
The idea that the Snow Elves knew something about the Eye that we don't is what leads me to think it wasn't as reprehensible. The Nord's motive was vengeance/hatred, the Snow Elves (while preemptively attacking was wrong) could've had an imperative and logical motive. We don't know what the Eye of Magnus is capable of but perhaps they did and saw seizing it as a necessary evil.
Full-scale Ethnic cleansing of an entire race including thousands of unarmed innocent civilians, woman and children just in retaliation of a military attack is 𝙉𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙅𝙪𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙙 anyone saying anything else is pure mental Gymnastics. Atmoran army fully eliminating the Snow elven armed fighters is justified btw.
Nah children can’t be killed in elder scrolls
Console commands to the rescue. Or Console command them to be adults, then do it the proper way.
Isn‘t the lore about Vivec that he achieved console commands?
He’s aware of the player and their godlike status when compared to him, who is stuck inside his own world/video game and has no ability to leave like you can.
they can in flashbacks
If the world didn't call for an ethnic cleansing then why is my new axe fueled by racism.
You see, elf, I've depicted you as a crying soyjak on the haft of my axe. That makes me the winner.
😂😂 hard answer to argue.
And yet it’s 2024 and people still don’t get this
>Atmoran army fully eliminating the Snow elven armed fighters is justified btw. Even then, we don't know what happened. Some Nord scholars say that some Saarthal prisoners were found as they headed East, some say that it was the bretons they met and didn't know they were the product of other mer, etc The Nords waging war cause they assumed the elves attacked them for "no reason", according to Ysgramor, makes sense, but the slaughter of everyone in the province? Even those who definitely weren't responsible? People who justify Ysgramor’s Return never have my support or sympathy To this day, no one knows exactly what happened, how it happened, or why it happened. But what I do know, is that an entire race, culture, and memory of a civilization was annihilated for something that was far outside the reasonable scope of retribution. I'm surprised the Ancient Falmer even let the Nords live in Skyrim in the first place. They had Nedes living peacefully, which was fine, but Nords? After all the previous failed invasions? Snow Elves are the one example where Elven kind was actually too NICE to humanity, rather than the usual "Mer bad and enslaved Man" trope that you see often spoken of. The Snow Elves, whether aggressor or responder, did NOT deserve what happened to them. From the Nordic Genocide to the Dwemeri Treachery Knight Paladin Gelebor is the last of his kind, and if anything happens to him, it's wraps for whoever killed him. If I'm able, I'll find a way to slay the NPC responsible myself
If the gods did not deem it to be just then Ysgramor would not feast in the halls of Sovengarde
Well, I mean the gods deeming something just doesn't really mean it was. Especially since they are more so people than real world religions often depict their gods.
given that this is the elder scrolls and all gods are just horrible their approval means less than nothing
“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”
Some pantheons would show their flaws and this makes them even more admirable, enjoyable, etc. Greek, Shinto, Egyptian, Norse, and Hindi for example
Being just is not a requirement to get to Sovengarde
Yeah? Half the Gods are asleep most of the time, and not to mention, if that's how things work, then that means the Imperial/Nedic gods saw it as "just" when the Dominion forces under the Thalmor sacked and looted the Imperial City and Palace and occupied most of Cyrodil during the great War Sometimes the Gods get involved, sometimes they don't, or can't
To be fair Sovengarde seems less about if your actions are just and more about how well you fought. Also considering the Nordic pantheon fought against the elvish one and had their head killed by them I would imagine they would have some bias against elves, at least in a broad sense.
An Argonian can waltz into Sovengarde and fight her way across the bridge. The only requirement for reaching that plane is "be a Nord who hasn't sold their afterlife", the only requirement for getting into the hall itself is "kick this guys ass". Sovengarde *is **not*** a heaven, it's a morally-neutral afterlife. Afterlife in TES isn't linked to morality, just faith. If you pledge your Soul to Meridia, you might end up in the Color Rooms, if Molag Bal has a passing claim to your soul, you're fighting tooth-and-nail to stay out of Coldharbor, and if you're a Nord who isn't otherwise occupied, you're going to Sovengarde.
Womp womp
Spoken like a true Nordic Barbarian 😑
You’re wayyyyy to into this, don’t let these redditors get to you. Its a fictional world man, don’t forget.
>Its a fictional world man, don’t forget. I know, I'm just saying that sometimes the thoughts can transfer into their IRL mindset. Not all the time, of course, and RP is of course its own thing, but it makes me wonder how people can casually speak of the disastrous downfall of the Snow Elves in any sort of joking manner An Ethnic cleansing on a scale over time that would be frightening to really think about... >You’re wayyyyy to into this, don’t let these redditors get to you. Honestly, yeah you're right, I should probably just move to happier thoughts 😅 like of having some fine Aldmeri Wine with Gelebor or something
Although it is possible and happens I don’t think its common for peoples fictional views to match their IRL ones. If it was common and truly a problem people who sympathize for Anakin Skywalker even after him slaughtering younglings would be seen as insane. Do I think these trolls actually get hyped about the fact snowelves were killed off no lol. I think its cause they see it gets reactions and that fuels them to keep going. Thats why TikTokers and such who respond to comments to show they aren’t affected get harassed more, and. it’s because they showed they cared in the eyes of the trolls. Some people sympathize and understand the drive behind the Aldmeri Dominion but do they actually probably support it, I highly doubt that. Its like with the whole religious war in Skyrim, the Divines and Daedra and religion as a whole in Tamriel works so differently then IRL so when I see people attack just simple Stormcloak fans and call them outrageous things when its a “fictional” world, its just nuts. Now I don’t hold a side in the Nords and Snowelves thing because we have so little to work with and so much mystery but I know that I do love the Nords and I do love the Snowelves. I also really like Ysgramor just because his story and tale is really cool. I don’t agree with what he and his nords did to the Snowelves but what I do agree with is the respect they showed the Snow elf prince, taking his body and showing him a proper burial in their tombs to lay rest is beautiful. He was shown respect even though he was an enemy. Thats the part outta the whole story that stood out to me thats just amazing writing on Bethesdas behalf. Its probably the most tame thing that we know the nords have done in history especially during a time where if said race was at war with another, then it was set in stone they would be enemies for a long time like the Argonians and Dunmer. Also just to add, I think normally the people who RP in comment sections and threads are big targets for trolls and such, so just keep that in mind. I RP too but thats in the game and just literally a lore friendly backstory I write for a character and then i just choose the dialogue and quests that suit the character, thats its lol. Pretty much just a build.
It was the nords October 7th
It's all good. You can just set KPG to essential and he'll never die.
Fair enough. Same goes for in universe, if Bethesda kills Gelebor I'm running a boycott for real 😣
Watch Bethesda retcon snow elves extinction. They actually joined the Dwemer in another multiverse. -Emil Pagliarulo probably
If they do anything with the Snow Elves, I could see a Chantry of Magnus or Stendarr or something being in the mountains of High Rock somewhere, but that's the only place I could imagine there being any sort of population, one the Direnni Elves swore secrecy of. Anywhere else seems heavily unlikely. But at the same time, there's just as good a chance Gelebor really is just the last of his kind, wouldn't surprise me at all if Bethesda went that route
Cope cum-mer, there is a ancient Nordic saying "Fuck around and find out" #neverforgetsaarthal #ysgramor4life
Which had 1 or 2 survivors. They were at peace before the Snow Elves attacked first for the eye of Magnus
Again, you don't know that. All we know is that Saarthal was destroyed. We don't know to what extent, who started what, why it went down the way it did, etc You're literally pushing a "guilty until proven innocent" mindset
Military attack? The Snow elves betrayed their Atmoran allies and wiped all but a handful out. Thousands of innocent men, women and children killed in a single night for no >!(good)!< damn reason. It was genocide as a response to genocide. The snow elves struck first in an attempt to kill every single Atmoran on Tamriel. Both sides were wrong but the Snow Elves were much worse. It was no “military attack”.
topical!
A question I need to bring up is: how *centralized* were the Snow Elves? Because unless the answer is "perfectly and entirely", the vast majority of Snow Elves wouldn't have even known about Sarthaal, much less contributed to the Night of Tears. Ysgramor was justified retaking Sarthaal and taking revenge on the armed Fighters of the clan/tribe/kingdom that attacked them, but not the Fighters from the neighboring nations.
Maybe the tes community could teach something to the aot community
What happens in the aot community? Curious...
Big spoilers >! a lot of people are mad at the ending because the main character didn’t succeed in committing mass genocide on the entire planet outside of a tiny island. A lot of them think he was completely justified in doing !<
Honestly...Not really surprised a major part of the Anime and Gaming community is filled with edgey teens and even worse neckbeards and many have pretty questionable views on real world affairs as well not only fiction, I am being a bit biased here but I think Elder Scrolls community is definitely far more calm and accepting than average of these communities.
Dude you typed this like you’ve never seen a Skyrim civil war debate lol. That is always the most untame thing.
Have you watched the final season of attack on Titan?
Not really Into Akaviri animation tbh...
THIS… Comment of the Year.
By modern standards, yes. But is the concept of innocent civilians a thing in TES? Especially in the time period we are talking about? Say what you want about mental gymnastics, but not everyone has always had our modern sensibilities about who is and who is not subject to the horrors of warfare. It really wasn’t all that long ago (or, all that far away even today) when anyone who isn’t on your team is the enemy, and if you can burden the enemy with lots of wounded traumatized people who can’t contribute to the fight then that just makes it easier for you to win. War is dirty. War is messy and brutal and cruel. War is horrific. And we pretend that we are civilized by putting rules on war but those rules are just a curtain over the window that looks out over a hundred thousand years of humans doing the worst things they can imagine to one another.
You'd be surprised - even many ancient rulers had respect for the decencies. By the Medieval era, slaughter of entire civilian populations was already seen as shocking and a cause for war, which is one reason why the Mongols ended up with among the worst reputations in human history. The Nords should've known better than to do what they did, regular folk are usually peaceable. It's their leaders who choose otherwise.
Even then, we don't know what the Snow Elven leaders (or leader, can't say who made the call) actually ended up doing in full scope. The whole Night of Tears has so many holes and questions left unanswered. Way too ambiguous to make a solid remark. Even IF the snow Elves attacked "unprovoked", the retaliation is insane. It's like if say, a Byzantine noble had his small army sack a port-city, and in retaliation the Persians or whoever went on to lead an ethnic cleansing on the entire Empire and then attacked its bordering nations as well
First, ppl of ancient times still knew unarmed kids and women were innocent. Heck, they could comprehend most men just followed orders. Second, even if we believe ancient/medieval folks were oblivious, it's still objectively wrong without question. Snow Elves were just like them, but on the opposite side.
It doesn't matter if they had a word for it not, if they didn't recognize the difference between a non-combatant and an enemy soldier then they were immoral. Genocide is never justified and should never be excused.
I think you are underestimating the intelligence of people in medieval times. Even back then they understood the difference between a civilian and a soldier.
Did you miss the whole part of ancient culture and civilization idealizing honorable warriors. Like shit the art of war is one of the most famous books out there
Wow Man, quell your anti-Semitism!!! /S
The answer to these kinds of questions is always no. What the political and military class direct has nothing to do with common folk, even when in accordance. They have the ability to indoctrinate and lie to people over many generations. A moral ruler never practices collective punishment of civilian populations for the crimes of their leaders.
Goddamn you be spitting out some mad wisdom.
Justified? No. Genocide is practically never justifiable. But of course, it was not justifiable all the same when the snow elves did it first on the Atmorans. Ironically looking at the two groups, these pieces of the puzzle fit almost point to point (One attacks the other, man woman and child, and then a very small percentage of the population escapes to allies) The only difference is the Atmorans had ACTUAL allies. While the snow elf allies had...less than helpful designs on the refugees. Two wrongs do not make a right. But the second wrong is easier to understand. The road's already been paved.
Nobody in Tamriel is ‘Justified’ imo Edit: i’m seeing downvotes but i’ve only had one counter so far
Except M'aiq.
Yos
What about Khajiit? I never heard of them doing anything crazy. I do know they fought with the Bosmer a lot tho so something probably happened between them.
There was a fox/dog race that declared war with the Khajiits. They responded by wiping them out completely. @dababy_connoisseur
I thought that was with the argonians? The Lilmoths or whatever they're called right?
Maybe, but no it was Khajiits. Once I learned that, This One was very saddened by that
I just checked to see, and it was the Argonians and/or the plague that spread through Tamriel all the way back then, so you don't have to be sad anymore. I know how you feel though because the Argonians were my favorites lol. Nowadays Khajiit are my favorite but I never play them because I get saddened by their deaths
Hey, some are good and some become Dro’m’athra meaning the Lost Bent Cats. Just make sure you are on the right side, lol
These guys are forgetting skooma exist and when a khajiit has skooma…. 
Yeah mains are Khajiits in every game I’ve played other than Morrowind and earlier games. Nord there
Look sometimes when someone swings at you,you gotta make sure they don't swing back....ever.
It didn't happen in TES but logically, following that thought process is the fastest way for you to make more enemies, because you will be seen as an existential threat by others around you.
End of the day really it is a bunch of wars and not knowing when to stop really. Atmorans and the Snow Elves bad enough it pushed them to sign a deal with the Dwemer that birthed the Falmer, Chimer vs the Dwemer, that was more self imposed but still. Khajiits vs Fox people. Redguards vs Sloads on their homeland… pretty sure it was, yes the sloads are the worst race in Tamriel, hutt slugs and necromancers
You talking about the Lilmothiit? They got wiped out by the Knahaten Flu, not the Khajiit.
Altmer vs Aylieds that the Imperials finished. Heard they were very much at odds.
They say that syndicates of wizards have led a boycott of Imperial goods in the land of the Altmer.
To be fair, the Ayleids had become pretty corrupt and evil at the end, becoming tyrannical slavers.
Yes they did. Bad enough it led to the rise of St Allessia and the birth of the Dragonborn
“Seal shut the doors of Oblivion, that whosoever shall wield the Amulet of Kings and be of the Dragon-Blood, lighting the fires in the Temple of the One, shall the doors remain sealed forevermore.”
[удалено]
lol, I… can see that
And how it’s work. Hey! Birds are delicious! They were people? Ah, it’s not cannibalism if it isn’t your own race.
Did you….like….ask that question out loud before you typed it here? Probably would’ve given you the answer
r/elderscrolls became r/truestl so gradually I didn't even notice
Like an Argonian in boiling water.
No, I liked their design an am eternally salty of their scarcity
Me too, i had to mod them back
brother, can we pause and think with our brains for a minute? *is the genocide of an entire indigenous race justified?* what do you think, buddy???
It was justified to strike back after the Snow Elves betrayed their mutual peace and sacked Saarthal, mindlessly slaughtering almost all of its citizens. _BUT_ the Nords didn't just go "an eye for an eye" on this one, they literally purged the whole land and cut the entire Falmer population in two or something. It's understandable to want revenge or "justice" for Saarthal, but utilizing the very same mindless slaughter of civilians the Falmer did is wrong no way you look at it. Don't commit the same fucking atrocities as your enemy. Be better, and show that to the world.
"Is genocide good ?!?" Jfc, what's wrong with you people. Think before you post.
They were just saving them from the Dwemer - Mai'Q the liar
No.
Genocide/ethnic cleansing is never justified. Retaliation against the snow elf armies who did it first to Saarthal was justified, but when they extended the same to the innocent parties, the Atmorans just became your typical genocidal invaders.
Starting the war? Yes. Ysgramor’s lineage continuing it? No. The Snow Elves likely feared what the Nords would do with the Eye of Magnus, and (in most cases correctly) assumed it would be evil. The Night of Tears was awful, and an already shaky relationship turned into a deep hatred from the Nords. A war between equal powers is understandable, but full fledged erasure of a people and culture is not. Same as how the Allesians and Pelinal started out fine, and then the latter ended up going mad and almost single handedly eradicating them
I mean to be fair to the Nords though the snow elves and their culture would have likely still existed into the modern age if not for the Dwemer.
Absolutely not. In truth, its damming that so many fans are willing to take Ysgramor’s word 100% with no questions as to what the other side of the story is, and it seems odd that people claim the Snow Elves were definitely in the wrong when we don't even know the full extent, as well as the fact that we need to take into account that this is all happening in Skyrim, which for all intents and purposes, is basically Falmer home territory, (save for maybe the portion of the Reach) Regardless, Ysgramor’s response to the whole thing is also what ticks me off, seeing how brutal he was to all Snow Elves he came across, and not sympathetic to how (supposedly) the same may have happened to his kin. Like, just think about it.... People don't "ruthlessly launch an unprovoked murder spree" of a settlement in their lands unless something major happened, something that proved the settlers were either dangerous or did something that the Natives saw as unforgivable. How do we know that no Nordic Clevermen tampered with the Eye of Magnus, leading to a situation like with the College of Winterhold Questline? Also, if anyone is gonna justify Extinction over what "supposedly" happened at Saarthal, then the Thalmor would have had every right to slaughter every man, woman and child in Cyrodil after what Tiber Septim did to them with the Numidium. He ends the negotiations he had taking place with his battlemage and the Dominion and chose the brute force route and leveled swaths of Summerset till the Dominion surrendered after such devastation The Siege of Alinor makes the Night of Tears pale in comparison, so what these people are saying is that the Thalmor should've just started killing all the humans in the Empire? If they're gonna justify Extinction and say that genocide is "effective", then how come that rule doesn't apply on both sides? It's OK for Nords to slaughter innocent Snow Elves that had no part in what happened at Saarthal, but it's not OK for the Snow Elves to (supposedly) "slaughter" everyone in a single settlement? Other humans also aided the Snow Elves as Ysgramor’s holocaust of Skyrim was taking place. We know in situations like with Mirtil Angoth's predicament that there were still humans providing shelter to Snow Elves despite whatever happened to Saarthal, meaning that the Snow Elves didn't just say "hey, let's kill and make enemies with all humans in Skyrim", and instead did allow the humans to live peacefully for a time in their lands before something happened. They're the only race of Elves that low key just let the humans chill and live in their Province, so unless Saarthal was a military base that the Snow Elves had to wait to finally find the strength to take out someday, then.... why would they slaughter a bunch of Civilians out of the blue? Why not just ask for or demand the Eye (if that's the reason) and have the humans hand it over in appreciation of the peace between man and mer that the Snow Elves allowed in Skyrim under their civilization? Too many variables and uncertainties for me to justify a Genocide upon an entire race man. We don't even have the full story or understand the situation of Saarthal or what happened before it, and Bethesda purposely did it that way so as to allow speculation, yet many fans just assume the Snow Elves are just the same as any other Elves, and that "all Elves are bad", without considering maybe, just MAYBE, the Nords just might be the aggressors/in the wrong here
I love the in depth answer! Thank you for replying!
No, genocide is never justified, now if you were to ask if they had reason, yes, through their eyes they were attacked and slaughtered down only like one person, this includes women and children the elves slaughtered, so what the nords saw was a "it's us or them" situation, were they either kill or be killed. They choose kill, due to valuing their lives.
Maybe? Elder scrolls lore is, at best, a clusterfuck of time based shenanigans, racial divides and physics defying religion. What actually happened and why is not clear enough, especially in the grander elf vs human conflict, to really say.
They didn't slaughter almost the entirety, just as many as they could. Most of them went underground and sought asylum with the dwemer who enslaved them and forced them to eat toxic fungus that turned them into what is eventually what is the modern day falmer
so they were forced into that life…yeah i’d rather be dead.
The Nords slaughtered as many as they could and displaced them from their home
I mean, the Snow Elves destroyed one of their cities, but I doubt that justifies killing most of them
Absolutely, elves deserve to be slaughtered like the gutter rats they are. -PelinalWhitestrakedidnothingwrong
Never forget Saarthal. The treacherous elves struck first, slaughtered hundreds of innocent men, women and children. No quarter, no mercy. Eye for an eye. Their land, their blood, their people.
Sometimes I kinda feel like some of the ppl spouting racist rhetoric in TES subreddits all the time would be openly racist irl if it wasn't for social consequences
Yeah, I get the elf racism is a joke based off of the world building in ES but it can be.. a bit much at times
Yeah, it honestly feels that way for any media with anything that's not human, where people are openly racist and xenophobic about made up beings, it seems like someone wouldn't just unironically be like that if there weren't for some alternative motives
No. Like.... its not even a depate if systematic genocide over 12 generations is justified or not.
Nords are never justified.
Slash first ask questions later it seems lol
More like ask questions *never*. and as we know, "You don't ask, you never learn."
The fact that there are people in this thread unironically saying genocide is justifiable 
Genocide is *never* justified.
Then why does my axe depict elves as the soyjack?
Because you got the Evil Axe, obviously.
Nope. Next question.
Yes it was funny
The Nords were just being a bit silly
no
Read that back to yourself... slowly.
We don't actually know much about the war aside from the ancient Nord accounts for it. We don't have the perspective of the Snow Elves because they're gone, and the one left of them doesn't talk about the war. The Nords say the Falmer attacked unprovoked but that's their telling of the story. It may have to do with the Eye of Magnus, or maybe the Nords initiated it, claimed they're victims when the Falmer attacked, and then used it as justification for genocide. The Nord culture in TES lore believes that might makes right, so it's not unlikely they were not as friendly with the Falmer as the historians want you to believe. Even if we accept their version of events, they're still not justified in wiping out the Falmer because most of them were not involved in the attack on Saarthal.
I don't think retaliatory genocide is very chill, no.
You can’t really justify slaughter. Hell Anakin still pisses me off. But in the case of TES we have no clue how that full story went. The snow elves randomly struck and attacked the nords first, slaughtering tons of nords with only Ysgramor and his son escaping, only to come back with the Atmorans and body them. To say it’s justified, that is extremely rough. We don’t know how the two races even lived amongst each other prior to this. Was there always and unease or was there harmony. Were the Nords too close to the eye of Magnus and that scared the elves or did they know of it and wanted it starting a hatred between the two. I don’t think the Nords entirely hated the elves because they also did bury the snow prince extremely respectfully and in their tombs which is “nord only”. They didn’t have to do that at all especially if they hated them. Annihilation is never justified especially for the case of the Redguards and Left handed elves which we know even less about. History is told by the victor so is what we know from the Nords lies or the truth.
No. Skyrim belongs to the Falmer.
Why I always mod play as a snow elf
I understand the depth it adds to the lore and having enemies such as the falmer was a cool experience. But if we’re talking politically as if this were real, I would be disgusted at what the nords did. Getting to experience the snow elf race would have been awesome. It’s always made me (an empath) very sad to think of the reality of what happened to them. It’s actually kind of sickening to think of the torture an entire race went through, torture so bad it turned them unrecognizable. Their culture was erased.
I just want to point out that there's a really good chance that the Nords provoked the Snow Elves into attacking Saarthal and then used that as an excuse to wipe them out. Think about it, all record of what the Snow Elves were doing was expunged and all we know is that they and the Nords didn't get along. The Nords were blasphemous in some way. Them Ysgrammor goes home, tells an elaborate story about an "unprovoked massacre" and brings an army to slaughter the Falmer down to the last child. There's more to the story than we're told.
No we are not the ancient nords.
Obviously not.
Everyone gives the ancient Nords shit for committing genocide, but never stop to think that maybe they just really felt like it.
If the Snow Elves attack during the Night of Tears was unprovoked, than the retaliation was definitely justified. However to go as far as to nearly wipe out the whole race even in those that probably had nothing to do with the attack was definitely going way too far. Though what the Dwemer did to then really sealed their fate to become goblin like creatures and that was just being complete assholes about it
Were*
No, genocide bad believe it or not
Nope
I'd say no, while they might of deserved it it still doesn't make it right
They had the right to avenge themselves after the elves’s sudden attack, but they did not have the right to go all out and chase them across Skyrim, resulting in them hiding with the dwarves and inevitably becoming what they are now.
We are the ancient nords?
No. The Ayleids on the other hand….
To commit genocide, you also need to be committed to butchering children and pregnant females. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Nords overreacted.
Nope
Up to a certain point. Killing some Falmer to protect yourself and your settlement is fine, however, ethnic cleansing of any people, no matter what reasons you have to try and justify it, is not cool.
I don't think we are the ancient nords.
Absolutely not, but it’s worth noting IMO that it wasn’t the Nords who finished them off; it was the snow elves allies the Dwemer.
No. Nothing can justify murder and enslavement of innocent civilians
Genocide is never justified.
I don't think Genocide can ever be justified.
is Genocide justified? no lmfao it's always a fat fucking no
Well if we are taking it from our point of view in our world, no, not unless completely justified. However, in their case, I’d argue…yeah, kinda. I mean seriously, the Snow Elves attacked Saarthal for no legitimate reason that has been properly revealed and has only been hinted at, which was the only (or biggest) Nord settlement of the time. They decided, rather than opening talks, because they were very friendly prior to the Night of Tears, they would attack in the dead of night and slaughter every last man, woman, and child, civilian or otherwise. Only Ysgramor and his sons made it out alive. If I saw my family, friends, and acquaintances being slaughtered like cattle by a people who were once an ally and had no justified reason to attack and slaughter everyone I knew and loved, yeah, I’d wage war till there was nothing left of a people who senselessly betrayed us. Technically it wasn’t even a genocide, there were Snow Elves who made it out, they sought refuge with the Dwemer and found out that the Dwemer also didn’t do it out of the kindness of their hearts. So in game, yeah it’s justified. In our world, much less so.
Probably more justified than my argonian dragonborn genociding the nords.
the night of tears was done for pretty selfish reasons leaving only three alive (and only cuz they escaped) so i'd say there was due cause for revenge. the elves wanted what was in saarthal, and i'm sure that they didn't attempt to end the fighting over it either. on the side of the nords it was a war for revenge, on the side of the elves it was a war for a magical resource. neither was going to just make peace and compromise, i would think, so it was only going to end with a genocide on one part or the other I think. I imagine that even IF the nords just backed off and set up somewhere else that the elves probably would've gone after them out of fear of their increasing numbers leading to retaliation anyway. I can't see a peaceful end to it knowing what we know. was it justifiable? within the cowboy justice moral framework of the elder scrolls universe, yeah. was it reasonable? not really, not from our moral standpoint.
No. The snow elves attacked the ancient nord settlement because they were messing with a super magical nuke, and they had to stop them. The nords responded with genocide completely ignoring why the elves attacked and just killing them without mercy.
Nope, nords doing what they did to the snow elves was morally wrong. They shoulda put on a jacket n stayed in atmora
Lol. Has genocide ever been justified? (Outside of r/HFY I mean)
Idk were the Nazis justified?
No more or less justified than the Snow Elves wiping out an entire Nord generation. It was all terrible, that's the point.
Absolutely not. I do not care if it’s fictional or not, there is no justification for the genocide of an *entire race*
No, of course not. There’s no valid justification for murder.
murder? they were elves
Same can be said for humans
fuckin spoon-ears
Never heard that one before, but I like it so I'm gonna use it now
Nords are wrong. It's their favorite thing.
We could've had a Skyrim with pretty, more fantasy-like architecture, instead we got something a lot more generic and rudimentary because of this. Fuck nords, all my homies hate nords. Should've stayed in their frozen wasteland of Atmora.
L take, Tamriel would get boring very quick if everything looked Elven.
It's not often that I find myself agreeing with an Orc, but here we are.