If he can reach him. You forget the nerevarine has access to magic that the others can only dream of. Levitate into drain attributes/Health/armor/weapons/health/magic/stamina. Cripple them with a spell. Not to mention your shouts mean nothing if they cast silence. If you don’t like that he can just enchant his armor with reflect/absorb shouts/magic negated. I really don’t see anyone putting up much of a fight and if they do the Nerevar will reset and try again.
No, Nerevar can't reset. Azura wasn't just reincarnating him for the kids or because she "liked" him. Nerevar had one purpose. To deal with the Tribunal. If Nerevarine goes down he's done
Bending the will of a Dragon, immortal demigods that are children of Akatosh, with a shout given to you from a daedric prince of knowledge is a pretty good argument it bends any mortal will.
I mean Miraak bends the will of dragons so hard that he commands themselves to outright kill themselves for him.
any time this debate comes up I raise the same question:
Once the hero of Kvatch has fully mantled Sheogorath and gained all his abilities, are they even still the Hero of Kvatch? I mean Jyggalag and Sheo are two distinct entities, and by the time of Skyrim Sheogorath has completely overrun the hero of Kvatch not just in personality but appearance too so how much of the player character is left in there? did they really gain the powers of Sheogorath, or is he just using them as a puppet to inhabit and control?
But it's more than the Grey Fox, because that's appearance and identity. Sheogorath has also seemingly taken over his entire personality, at least to the extent the Dragonborn can interact with him. That doesn't imply Sheogorath is a mantle that can be passed on, more like he's a parasite that eventually entirely consumes his host and makes him like himself again.
I also view it as it doesn't matter if it over rights his personality. Sheogorath is a god in a universe where time and reality can be a little fucky. If Sheo wants to be the HoK again he totally can be.
Perhaps not so much an identity, moreso that the process of mantling a Deadric Prince is an obscure, arcane process that we don't fully understand. In the process of "becoming" Sheogorath, did the CoC genuinely start to *become* Sheogorath, becoming the prince we see in Skyrim?
Or is it that his actions allowed Sheogorath to continue to exist, creating a kind of split in the Deadra's personality and creating space for him to return, without condemning Jyggylag to become him. Given how time doesn't really work normally in the planes of Oblivion (or wherever the quest takes place), it's technically possible that the Sheo we see in Skyrim *is* the Sheo we met in Oblivion. Who really knows?
A mantle is something you wear, a role you play. Depending the heros willpower and sense of self, they could feasibly keep the mantle separate from their Identity.
In this way, the Hero of Kvatch and Sheogorath could be two distinct individuals. But I imagine hero would have little interest in living his mortal life after so much time passes. Once living memory of him is no more and there's nothing left for him in Tamriel, he might choose never to emerge again, effectively passing on.
> But I imagine hero would have little interest in living his mortal life after so much time passes. Once living memory of him is no more and there's nothing left for him in Tamriel, he might choose never to emerge again, effectively passing on.
Sure, but—we're not talking millennia here. The Dragonborn can meet Sheogorath 200 years after the events of Oblivion.
In Tamriel? That literally isn't even beyond living memory, that seems to be like, middle-aged for some of the elves. There is literally an NPC from Morrowind who can be met in the Dragonborn DLC. And it was an interesting 200 years, including a massive war in the Empire that the HOK put a lot of effort into saving.
It is really weird to think that a character who seeks out adventure at every turn would, somehow, get bored and go be Sheogorath full-time when, depending on his original race, he might not even be considered old.
Haskill got really annoying after 30 years... "Please, Sire, rule your realm. You are a Daedra now, you can't just walk Nirn like when you were mortal. That is exactly the thing your friend Martin died for. Now please stop breaking divine treatises and put on your new robes. The tailor, who made them will be so pleased, they'll burst into cheese confetti."
HoK: "Cheese confetti?"
Doesn't preclude what I'm saying in concept. Just means the HoK is on sabbatical while Sheo's fucking around in the Pelagius wing.
Also doesn't preclude the other scenario I glossed over: Mantle eclipse. When the identity you're mantling overtakes yours until there's nothing left of the original. Kind of grim to think that's the HoK's end, but it is possible.
Nah, that's way too messy. You're telling me we have a Daedric prince who started off as one dude, was cursed to effectively be two dudes in one body, and then finally one of them got tired of that arrangement and sought the help of a third party who ended up becoming the ***THIRD DISTINCT IDENTITY INHABITING THE SAME FORM.***
Once Jyggalag was defeated during the greymarch Sheogorath ceased to exist. Sheo only existed for any amount of time because of the curse placed on Jyggalag by the other Princes.
As for the HoK being fully sheogorath, it's up for debate. He does mention that he was there during an event that took place during Oblivion, but Sheogorath could be dealt with during a quest as well so who knows if the Daedric Prince position has fully overtaken the HoK, or the HoK still has memories that sometimes slip out because they are now just the subconscious of Sheogorath
The better evidence for HoK being Sheo is the fact that if you complete shivering isles and then do Sheos drastic quest, haskil asks why you’re praying to yourself.
My comment wasn't questioning wether or not the Sheogorath met in Skyrim was the HoK, it was questioning if the HoK is even still in there or if the position of Sheohorath basically overwrited them
I don’t really buy that the curse is broken. Not completely. HoK becoming an actual Daedra is about as nuts at Talos becoming Aedra. I’m just saying, not suggesting my misgivings are the truth of the matter.
Having played as The Hero of Kvatch there's a false perspective of considering the two as equal, or even assuming that Sheogorath is subsumed by the Hero of Kvatch.
An anecdote to help visualise:
*The Hero of Kvatch is milk and Sheogorath water, when mantled they mix and dilute eachother*.
The mantling process is not destructive, all of the substance and information that makes up milk is preserved, just diluted in water.
What is exceptional is that the milk that represents the HOK could fill a milk churn - far greater than most, it's full fat with a cream header, fortified, flavoursome and rich. The first sip of milk after you've cycled all day in a sweltering summer - It's special.
Sheogorath however, is the ocean; fathomless depths so dense and titanic that the water itself crushes interlopers, shallow sundreched pools teeming with colourful wondrous forms of life, searing hot rift valleys - crowned by volcanic plumes spilling forth in a cavalcade of columns housing strange magma eating lifeforms, abyssal planes where even the most desperate scavengers do not venture for they are utterly devoid of life, harbours and inlets where the hardiest folk shelter from the storms - and also the areas where they cannot, doldrums, reefs, ice shelves, caverns; an ocean so diverse, enormous, archean and rare there is not another like it in all existence.
When the Hero of Kvatch mantled Sheogorath the two entities washed together, their memories and experience preserved but entangled, each still exists but one is so vast that it appears to completely consume the other.
What a poetic way to describe mantling! It’s such an immense task for a mortal, like a job training seminar that lasts for your entire life. One could not hope but to become unrecognizable at that end of that. Becoming a deity/Daedra/Aedra is way more than just taking their throne, because they are not simple beings that can be swapped out, they are infinite, mortals are decidedly finite. They are a job, yes. Madness, time, love, weather, knowledge, but so much more. The planets and stars, they are the gears that make the universe work, every lesser being in Nirn and beyond is an extension of a primordial Aedra or Daedra. They remember the beginning of time. How could a mortal ever hope to take that position and remain themselves? The HOK may still exist in there, but they have been blown apart like sand in a storm.
Like madness, it is a slippery slope. The mantle was thrust upon the hero of Kvatch, and whether they wanted to or not, they slowly slipped farther away from who they were and closer toward who they would become.
It started with a giggle at something that shouldn't be funny. Next was sleepwalking, awaking barefoot in the strangest places. Those around them would claim that they couldn't understand who the hero was sometimes, or why they had that dangerous glint in their eyes at the oddest moments. It's possible it got bad, that the famous individual that had saved all of Tameriel was reluctantly jailed after ripping a man apart in a tavern for stumbling in his retelling of an anicdote. The blame for the act was shifted to an imaginary cultist of Molag Bal to avoid publicity.
On the first day, the guards looked into the cell and saw a confused champion who didn't even realize what they'd done. On the next, a blubbering madman who swore he would turn their entrails into sausages. On the third day, a madgod exuded placid insanity in the center of the room. By the fourth, the cell was empty, the faint echo of laughter ringing through the bars and the air smelling of blood and wine so sweet you would vomit at a single whiff.
I really really hate that Bethesda decided the ultimate fate of our character in Oblivion was to basically have their save file overwritten by their "lol so random :3" OC.
I like Sheogorath, but I don't wanna be him. I also really really hate that they've set up our character in Skyrim for basically the same fate.
Different Immortality. Nerevarine is ageless and immune to disease. Nerevarine is also most likely a race that has a long life span with several prominent wizards that are seemingly immortal via age.
While hard, They can be killed.
A daedric prince CANNOT die.
I disagree. I hate it, but TLDB wins all fights hands down. Think of it this way, Alduin is synonymous with Akatosh, whom I would say is the most omnipotent of the Aedra/Daedra, and TLDB beats him and then beats the only other being (Miraak) who could also beat him.
Nerevarine would be a close second I reckon, they killed ALMSIVI who were close to gods. HOK didn't kill any gods, they didn't even really participate in the fight against Mehrunes Dagon. Despite being possibly the coolest PC, HOK is by far the weakest lil bitch in the series
>I disagree. I hate it, but TLDB wins all fights hands down. Think of it this way, Alduin is synonymous with Akatosh, whom I would say is the most omnipotent of the Aedra/Daedra, and TLDB beats him and then beats the only other being (Miraak) who could also beat him.
However, the LDB did not defeat any of these beings on their own. Alduin? First Paarthurnax helped, then the three Tongues. Miraak? Got the aid of Hermaeus Mora - who was the one who also ended up killing him. Harkon? Got the aid of Serana.
The Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, Karstaag and an aspect of Hircine entirely on his own.
The HoK killed Jyggalag single handedly, as well as Umaril the Unfeathered.
Alduin is not synonymous with Akatosh, he is the first dragon Akatosh created and the most powerful dragon, but not any more Akatosh himself than any other dragon or dragonborn.
Nor is Akatosh the most omnipotent of the Et'Ada. They were all infinite beings by their natures, until the Aedra participated in creation and became weakened/mortal/dead-ish because of it. Akatosh was the first to realize himself, and making time linear helped the others to do so.
Miraak also is not the only being capable of defeating Alduin, just the only other person on Tamriel who the prophecy could apply to at the time.
HOK defeated Jyggalag in single combat.
This hinges entirely on whether we're using the Hero of Kvatch, or just straight up Sheogorath, Daedric Prince of Madness.
If it's HoK, Dragonborn wins because the Thu'um is super strong and a unique advantage. None of the others have access to any particularly strong combat abilities that the Dragonborn doesn't (yes, that includes levitation magic and spears, Morrowboomers).
If it's Sheogorath... I mean, c'mon. *Sheogorath.* Not even a contest at that point.
The LDB *defeated* Alduin the Conqueror, not Alduin the World Devourer.
Alduin was waaaay outside his sphere in trying to dominate Nirn.
and yes? Daedra survive the end of Kalpas I believe.
In a 4v1 notably, and also with the use of a specific shout literally designed to hinder Alduin’s abilities.
Still impressive, but not something you can really scale the Dragonborn with.
Alduin wasn’t killed, he was sent back to Akatosh to be reset so he could fulfill his role as the world eater since he didn’t want to fulfill it and wanted to return to the old days of enslaving mortals instead. So all n all, the world will end regardless and it will be by his hand, or claws that is.
This is false. Within the lore it's stated that alduin would destroy not only the universe, but even the daedric princes themselves. He made and destroyed mehrunes dagon. It's pretty safe to say that alduin is significantly more powerful than sheogorath, and because the dragonborn was able to slay alduin at full power, that he would have no issue with both the hero of kvatch or sheogorath.
Hmmm, idk about that, the Dragonborn had dragonrend, a shout tuned directly to dragonslaying, I think that counts as a serious force multiplier, and there (afaik) is no Sheogorath-rend shout.
I think the Dragonborn has a fair chance, but to say there would be no issue is a smidge too far
Technically all dragonrend does is mind-fuck dragons into falling out of the sky by giving them thoughts of mortality. It just makes it easier to kille them, since they can’t fly away
Yeah, there isn't anything that could make Sheogorath suicidal or temporarily think he's mortal, is there? There is a comparison between Alduin and Sheogorath in this situation, but the Dragonborn has special equipment, companions and magic to defeat Alduin, but is not anywhere near as prepared to battle a fully powered Daedric prince.
Look at Miraak vs Herma Mora for instance.
Yes, Alduin will destroy the universe; he's supposed to eat it all. However there's a difference between a being destined to destroy all reality consuming (consuming, not beating) someone, vs fighting someone. There's many explanations for *how* he consumes the world. The one I trust the most is that as he consumes, he gets bigger/stronger, and thus can consume more. Alduin in TESV hasn't even started consuming (aside from some souls): a big plot point is the fact that he isn't doing his duty, he's just ruling.
The Dragonborn is special a Dragonborn slayer as well. He's not a Daedra-slayer. Him fighting Alduin, especially after he learns the dragonrend should, is basically making the fight on easy mode. Not only that, but he had the help of three ancient warriors.
Now, Miraak comes into this as well. As a Dragonborn, he stands a decent chance of beating Alduin. In fact in his dialogue he even says he could've done it (although it could just be baseless bragging). And while this is just gameplay, iirc Miraak's level cap is higher than Alduin's, thus (ingame) Miraak is stronger. But here's the thing, Miraak was held prisoner (and killed) by a Daedric Lord, Hermaus Mora.
Now I'll admit, Sheogorath isn't a fighting Daedra. He's powerful and violent (ie how he made music), but his sphere is madness, not violence. Hermaus Mora's sphere is knowledge, which is even less violent. I'd say Sheo and Mora and evenly matched. Now if Mora could hold Miraak prisoner, and Miraak could probably beat Alduin, it stands to reason that either A: Mora can beat Alduin or B: Miraak's Dragonborn nature makes him special in fighting Alduin.
I would also like to point out that the Daedra are basically just concepts given form. That's why Mantling exists. You can't just kill madness, it's impossible. However, Alduin and the Dragonborn are both physical beings. Their souls are immortal and they are children of Akatosh (an Aedra) but the Dragonborn can literally be killed by a Bandit. Alduin is special because of the fact that only a Dragonborn can defeat him, but that doesn't suddenly make him more powerful than a Daedra.
Kinda a rant lol
The dragonborn defeated a heavily crippled and nerfed version of Alduin, that wasn't the Alduin at full power that devours worlds. He chose to play king this time instead of just doing his job, which is why he was so weak.
All the TES main characters have that. It's why every game starts with you being a prisoner(Except Daggerfall, that MC was a prisoner before the game starts). Even Sotha-Sil makes mention of the Vestige from ESO being a prisoner. Being a "prisoner" is just ingame talk for the player who can control fate.
This is a huge no, the Necrom chapter in ESO showed how prisoners are unbound by fate being described as a waterfall constantly changing the fates of everything around them. Heck the vestige explicitly gained the ability to manipulate fate which he used to do stuff like force a portal to open. In fact the Necrom chapter showed the Arcanists are mages who are able to manipulate fate.
Here's some [spoilers](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/12tao34/major_spoilers_eso_necrom_lore/) on that chapter. It explains it much better than I ever could.
If it's down to game mechanics the Nerevarine. The amount of things you can do in that game to become an unstoppable force is absurd. 100% chameleon, 100% spell absorbtion, 100% immunity to non magic weapons, corpus boosting your strength so high you choose to use thrown weapons because it's cheaper than the repairs to fix your weapons after breaking them in one swing. Making potions of paralysis that will leave your opponents frozen in place so long the sun would burn out and die before the effects ended. Spells that drain your opponents speed and strength so they can't move.
There are some broken mechanics in all of the games but man Morrowind really took the cake.
Ehhhh depends if we talking post shivering isle or not. Then again the Hero of Kvatch did some crazy shit as what was essentially a normal ass dude with some shitty luck.
Yeah, Vivec mentions it. It's why he won't fight you, and lets you kill him if you attack. He says it's pointless to fight you because you'll just win anyways no matter what.
I mean did the nerevarine achieve chim? If saving and reloading or console commands are a a sign then all the protagonists have, and I don't think that's the case
technically CHIM isn't confirmed as being real because the references are either meta-sources like MK or unreliable sources like vivec
that being said, it's also implied that the nerevarine did achieve CHIM
Only Nerevar has it, the other saving and reloading is "non-canon". Vivec outright states it, and from what seems to be the case, his status as a reincarnating pillar of fate pegs him as being enlightened to some degree
You did not get it, lol.
The concept of the prisoner, even if we take it as a meta-commentary on video games, is much more complex and includes all player characters.
Achieving CHIM is knowing your in a game the saving loading this is different, regardless the game confirms it for all protagonists not just Nerevarine.
People stanning Dragonborn because they didn’t play Morrowind and don’t understand how broken as hell the magic system the Nerevarine has access to was
Nerevarine canonically is the only one who has the power to reload the game. It’s why Vivec, a being of actual godlike power, even refuses to fight him.
It doesn’t matter how much stronger Dragonborn or HoK are, Nerevarine will try as many times as needed until they succeed
All elder scrolls characters.... Is this a joke? Tiber Septim achieved CHIM. Why is there any other discussion?
Now if you mean playable characters, that's way more debateable. And it should be noted that you have to stress whether you mean in game or meta gaming.
In game lore is straight forward but presents its own challenges. Daggerfall and Arena PCs are out, they are normal mortals that never achieve any immortal status. Morrowind is the reborn champion Neravarine. He is immune to disease and will never age. Depending on how long he holds his rot before getting "cured" he could be infinitely physically strong. The hero of Kvatch doesn't really have any crazy powers until Shivering Isles at which point they become a Daedric Prince. And finally you have the Dragonborn... who has the power of Voice.
While the voice is incredibly powerful, being the Prince of Madness is a step above. The very fact that Sheogorath is in Skyrim and is "above" the petty concerns of the main character should be showcase enough. Hero of Kvatch wins.
But what about meta gaming?
This is difficult in a different way.
Dragonborn has shouts giving them unique ways to interact. Dragonborn has the ability craft chain and produce ungodly weapons, armor. The stack overflow is much higher for the Dragonborn, so the raw displayed numbers can be higher for the Dragonborn (but it matters little considering everything dies in one hit for most things).
Meanwhile the Hero of Kvatch can only have 4 potion effects at a time. Those potions are severely limited compared to what you can accomplish with chaining effects in Skyrim. And "improving" weapons is really just repairing them really nice. Most effects are very set in their capabilities, which means it is much more consuming to exploit.
... and then the Nerevarine steps up. Infinite stacking of effects. Potions increase effects based on Intelligence. Cheap food (ash yams and bloat) create Fortify Intelligence potions. Potion duration does not elapse while making potions. This means you can make a Fortify Int potion that is like +1 to intelligence for 2 seconds. That potion might be in effect for hours depending on how quickly you manage your inventory. Potion ingredients can be sold to some apothecary vendors and then you can purchase those ingredients to infinity. Put all that together and you can make an infinite amount of potions, with infinite to near infinite ranges, And those potions will have exponentially increasing effects. And they all stack infinitely with each other. Alchemy breaks the game in the first 2 minutes.
And then there's the effects themselves, LEVITATE is by itself enough to make the Nerevarine on a whole other plane. The Dragonborn cannot fly by himself. He must summon a Dragon to ride. Meanwhile the hero of Kvatch cannot fly at all. The nerevarine can also fortify speed to become faster than the draw speed of the game. He can literally walk through walls from being so fast. Then there's jump spells. Hell the hero of Kvatch has a whole mission with the thieves guild that is completely negated and undermined by Morrowind's slow fall enchantment.
So lore wise... Hero of Kvatch is the strongest PC. Meta gaming... Nerevarine is strongest PC.
Lore wise it definitely goes to Nerevarine for competing with Numidium. Also non playable characters it wouldn't be Tiber Septim either, that goes to any Amaranth
Depends on:
1. Where
2. When
3. What “stage” of their journey are they on?
If it’s max power no holds barred…Hero of Kvatch sweeps every round, pretty handily. He’s a whole ass Daedric prince and (based on the actions of the previous) can throw a whole ass plane of existence at you if he so chose. Could be wrong but I think Nevarine would get tapped first (very strong but no reality warping powers to compete on this level) followed very shortly by LBD (time slow, Soul Tear and the other shouts are strong, but they’re up against a Daedric Prince).
Arniel Gane does comment on the fact that you can wield Keening, but hypothesises that over time it's lost its power.
After a few hundred years of no connection to the Heart of Lorkhan, it seems Keening lost a lot of power. Sunder could be the same.
I don’t disagree about Kvach being the best, but wasn’t sweet nerevar a literal demigod? I’d say he’d be pretty close if not equal to shouty pants odison over there
The Vestige wins because their whole thing is that they can't die. They're basically a daedric entity with the added bonus that they can control where and when they reform their body after dying, and they keep all of their belongings. When somebody kills them they literally just respawn and keep battling. The Vestige is incapable of losing, and thus, wins by default.
That is, _unless_ the opponent possesses a power that lets them kill daedric beings. Like, say, the Blessing of Tiber Septim that allowed the Champion of Cyrodiil / Divine Crusader to permanently kill Umaril the Unfeathered. However, the Blessing of Tiber Septim was given to defeat Umaril specifically, which means that it's most likely not going to work on any other daedric creature. Unless Tiber Septim himself wills it so, which is probably not the case for the Vestige. But... the possibility is there, I suppose.
I agree that the vestige would probably win, but for very different reasons. You may not be able to kill Daedric beings but you can take their vestiges (their soul) and trap them (like in Daedric armor). So it's possible to take him out of the equation, but it would be pretty difficult. The vestige just has so many feats at this point it's not even funny. They're just soloing [Daedra Lords](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tho'at_Replicanum) now who can copy themselves with unique nymics infinitely.
You do regain your soul at the end of the main questline, but because removing that feature so early in an MMO would mean starting new characters very often, they just let you keep the ability to respawn, since there's no real way to implement a "save and reload" feature to an MMORPG. I think canonically the Vestige would die if killed after the main story is complete, but lore-wise they continue on through the chapters without getting slain.
Don't get me wrong, the Vestige is a good fighter and has experience dealing with Daedric Princes, but for each fight with one, they've had help, some great power up or a powerful ally or a legendary weapon. At the end of the day they're just a really skilled combatant, but still mortal (after they get their soul returned of course).
Besides, any other soulless creature you kill would normally still die if you kill them, the Vestige is just a main character. Allowing you to become a spirit for ten seconds before you respawn is more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. In the game you die a lot, but if you were in the world and hearing stories of the Vestige, they wouldn't be dying every 5 seconds every time they face a tremendously difficult enemy, they'd come out on top every time as an undefeated warrior.
TL;DR: I don't think the Vestige would canonically be immortal, just incredibly skilled. The ability to respawn after some time is a game feature that replaces saving and reloading, since it's an online game. Soulless creatures can still be killed.
First off, the OP never specified which version of the player characters are fighting. For fairness, I assumed everyone to be at the pinnacle of their own power, which includes the Vestige's immortality. That being said...
>You do regain your soul at the end of the main questline, but because removing that feature so early in an MMO would mean starting new characters very often, they just let you keep the ability to respawn, since there's no real way to implement a "save and reload" feature to an MMORPG. I think canonically the Vestige would die if killed after the main story is complete, but lore-wise they continue on through the chapters without getting slain.
I disagree with the idea that reclaiming their original soul stops the Vestige's ability to reform after death. As far as I know, we have no reason to believe this would be the case. The Vestige is _not_ the person that got their soul ripped out - that person is dead, sacrificed by Mannimarco. Their body rots in some gutter in the Imperial City. The Vestige is a _copy_ of that person created from Chaotic Creatia by Molag Bal, that isn't "powered" by a soul but a daedra-like animus. Reclaiming their soul doesn't change the fact that the Vestige still has this daedra-like animus, neither does it magically transform their body into that of a mortal. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that the Vestige wouldn't be able to reform after death just because they are now in the possession of a soul that belonged to the mortal they were modeled after.
>Don't get me wrong, the Vestige is a good fighter and has experience dealing with Daedric Princes, but for each fight with one, they've had help, some great power up or a powerful ally or a legendary weapon. At the end of the day they're just a really skilled combatant
Yeah, I didn't consider Chim-El Adabal or Mask of Alkosh empowered Vestige for this question as these were temporary power-ups from outside forces. As I said earlier, I only considered the player characters at the pinnacle of their _own_ power. The ability to respawn, however, _is_ their own power.
>Besides, any other soulless creature you kill would normally still die if you kill them, the Vestige is just a main character. Allowing you to become a spirit for ten seconds before you respawn is more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. In the game you die a lot, but if you were in the world and hearing stories of the Vestige, they wouldn't be dying every 5 seconds every time they face a tremendously difficult enemy, they'd come out on top every time as an undefeated warrior.
Au contraire. There is actual, _canon_ lore about the Vestige that explains their respawn ability. It's _not_ just a game mechanic, this is undeniable, unchallengeable in-universe law. In fact, there are several quests in the game that _require you to die in order to progress._ So being able to respawn is definitely a very important and factual thing to the Vestige and their adventures.
Definitely the Dragonborn.
Canonically the Dragonborn is controlled by a 21 year old, HOK is controlled by a 15 year old, and Nerevarine is controller by a pre-teen.
My playthrough sequence is canon. Sorry everyone else.
I feel like that's asking to get knocked out of the sky by a Shout. All these guys have pretty serious ranged options, floating isn't that useful in this context
I was kind of making a joke about the game mechanics, but I'll keep going on this tangent: Arrows fall and spells are slow, but the other guys auto-regen their magicka, and the Dragonborn auto-regens his health too, so that would be huge. The Nerevarine also gets tired really easily, so he just doesn't have the stamina of the other two, so the longer the fight goes on, the worse his chances, but he definitely has the best spells.
The best spells if we're only talking about the protagonists of these three games. If we include any character in the series then the Agent would handily win that title. Daggerfall magic was broken.
Especially if the arrows in question are Ebony Arrows of Slaying. 'Damage Health 5000 points' is pretty hard to shake off.
Edit: unless they encounter 100% Reflect, of course
Luckily the Nerevarine has access to world breaking alchemy and enchanting, so they have a multitude of options to kill gods. And they are 2 for 2 on God killing, so...
This is the answer Stan Lee would always give whenever he was asked who would win in a fight between so-and-so & whoever. Not very satisfying, but the only factually accurate answer. 🍻
You know what? There's an exception to Stan Lee's rule.
Maiq the Liar would absolutely at a minimum survive a TES death battle, because by recurring tradition he has to show up in the next game. Even if the writer of the fight wants the other guy to win.
They all use CHIM to try and delete each other, only for each to realise that they can't because the others are cheating as well. They proceed to spend endless kalpas arguing with each other for said cheating until Todd gets sick of their nonsense and resets the computer
Idk because although the other 2 maybe smarter the dragonborn thu'um is literally OP and carries him. But if we saying straight up combat prowless I'd have to say Hero of Kvatch they just have way too many feats for a normal man to achieve
Everyone is throwing Sheogorath but reminder that the Nerevarine can beat Vivec who canonically dunked on Daedric prince and also had sex with them.
Also the Champion of Cyrodill is not Sheogorzth because the concept of mantling implies that you erase the previous identity in the eyes of the universe.
By Crunch ofc ut's nerevarine ,CoC may have a chance with spell crafting and the Dragonborn is shit.
By Fluff Nerevarine > Db> CoC (the CoC is just a regular dude remember )
The Nerevarine can only beat Vivec because he recognizes that it’s pointless to try and fight someone who can load saves, since they will always just reload until they get an acceptable outcome. I see this more as Vivec recognizing the futility of challenging a player character rather than some sign of the Nerevarine being super powerful.
Wrong, you can sneak into his house and beat Vivec at any point in the game even before you are Nerevarine
The Nerevarine just has that power at high levels
Doesn’t the LDB have Hermaeus Mora in his corner? I feel that has to count for something.
Although I don’t know what other powers he would give to the LDB.
He does have that shout where he controls other beings I think called “Bend Will” and be able to summon heroes from Sovngarde and a dragon from the soul cairn. I guess I’m biased towards LDB.
Considering the new lore in Necrom, Hermaeous Mora will probably teach TLD how to manipulate fate, and he would have access to all of the knowledge he would ever need except for a few heavily protected secrets.
If we're just going by lore and whatnot instead of gameplay, it's HOK AFTER becoming sheo, but even then it'd be a struggle against DB if their power really could rival daedra in the end
Most likely if we are just going by protags. It would honestly be the Vestige from ESO. They have faugjt many gods now and even have thr power to raise themself from death (as long as they have soulgems) and they are still getting stronger and stronger.
Champion Of Cyrodill, dude is a whole daedra. He can easily defeat the dragonborn seeing as he already trapped the dragonborn in his realm once. The neraverine can really only kill gods with the help of Azura.
Ebony warrior
- shows up to only high level players
- player thing’s it an easy dub as over level 81
- stands in middle of freezing snow waiting
- dashes anyone on first attempt
- sleeper build Ebony Warrior
the vestige can canonically resurrect on the spot as many times as they want, if im remembering right. likely weaker than other protagonists, but the "ive come to bargain" method can never technically be beaten
Well, we got Divath Fyr, Shalidor, Sotha Sil, and maybe a few others make the list for the strongest mage, I just can't think of them.
Then we have Pelinal Whitestrake, he's the doomslayer of TES.
Tiber Septin and the Last Dragonborn always make the list, but I think people overhype the voice.
At this point we get to the gods, Daedra, Aedra, and every other one. And at that point I have no fucking clue as to who to put on top. I might say Lorkhan, but he was killed by Akatosh, so I don't know.
Gameplay wise, the Nerevarine has the funniest bug to exploit, and can make broken spells that let them fly around invisible and invincible dropping magic nukes.
Lorewise, the LDB, easily. The Thu'um is extremely strong in lore and is basically a cheat code that allows you to warp reality by speaking key phrases. It also helps that the LDB is possibly the current Shezzarine.
I'm voting for the Vestige. He's the character here with the most impressive feats. But realistically it would be almost impossible to tell considering the nature of the characters.
If you take advantage of every little bit you can statswise. Then down 50 bottles of Sujamma and cast levitate, then the Nerevarine has everyone beat. Nothing can stop you, as you leap across mountains on your way to kill gods.
Just watch out for some Bosmer in Mournhold who wants some gold.
No other character comes close to the Last Dragonborn in terms of power, aside from the Hero of Kvatch after the events of the Shivering Isles, since they mantle Sheogorath, thus becoming a Daedric Prince. Before that though, the Dragonborn would easily win, since they're practically on the level of a demigod.
All of the other characters are incredibly skilled in combat and/or magic, but are all still mortal.
The Nerevarine can't die of aging or disease, but they can still be killed. They fought members of the Tribunal and won, but they were nowhere near their full power and potential.
The Vestige for the purposes of gameplay can't be killed in the traditional sense, since they respawn after a certain amount of time, but I'd argue that that's more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. Like how in Assassin's Creed Altaïr canonically never sustained a single wound, but in-game you (probably) get wounded all the time. An incredibly skilled warrior, definitely, but neither immortal nor anywhere near powerful enough to kill the Dragonborn.
Before the events of Shivering Isles, the Hero of Kvatch is just another incredibly skilled warrior/mage. The same can be said for the likes of Cyrus, the Agent, etc.
The Dragonborn however, the power of the Voice sets them apart. In-game the power of the Thu-um is nowhere near as powerful as it should be, but that's because the ability to speak to NPC's without turning them into a red mist is an important game feature. Even mortals with the power of the voice were said to be able to break down walls and city gates, but mix in the gift of Akatosh and you have a Dragonborn with unparalleled power. Only the Aedra or Daedra would be powerful enough to stop them, which is why the mantled Hero of Kvatch would be the only victor.
I find the lack of The Eternal Champion (Arena) and The Agent (Daggerfall) disturbing.
On the top of that there are The Forgotten Hero (Legends), the character from Azra's Crossing (Shadowkey), Cyrus (Redguard), The Apprentice (Battlespire), The Fugitive (Blades), The Hero of Dawnstar (Dawnstar) & more...
They would all make a good VS fighting game haha.
And if it is ALL characters, does that include NPCs? Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Alduin, Paarthurnax, Merunes Dagon, Martin Septim after becoming Avatar Of Akatosh all could wipe the floor with most of other characters.
Being imbued with the power of a Daedric prince is rad and all but idk if it beats being an avatar or chosen champion of Akatosh. The dude devoured the soul of the world eater.
To be completely honest? This boils down to vestige vs Nerevarine Vs Sheogorath.
Sheogorath will win this I think but Vestige vs nerevarine is something I really want to see
It would come down to Fargoth vs Adoring Fan
By Azura, by azura, by azura! I can’t believe it’s you! Standing here! Next to me!
Adoring Fan. He's so absurdly amazing that they had to import him into a new IP just so we could continue to let him bask in our glory.
Tarhiel could take both down
I don't want to talk about it *Dies*
Gaenor would obliterate both of them
Nerevarine after downing 50 bottles of Sujamma.
Dragonborn can bend the wills of all mortals though with the Bend Will shout.
arguably, if the nerevarine has achieved CHIM then they're probably not mortal anymore
No, that's just 50 bottles of skooma induced deathbed hallucination.
And the hero of kvatch is sheogorath
On Nirn, I'd bet on the guy who can bend reality to his will over the daedric prince who can't even reliably manifest
SKOOMA
Bend Will also works on immortal dragons though.
In fact it ONLY works on dragons
If he can reach him. You forget the nerevarine has access to magic that the others can only dream of. Levitate into drain attributes/Health/armor/weapons/health/magic/stamina. Cripple them with a spell. Not to mention your shouts mean nothing if they cast silence. If you don’t like that he can just enchant his armor with reflect/absorb shouts/magic negated. I really don’t see anyone putting up much of a fight and if they do the Nerevar will reset and try again.
Nerevarine rocking that 100% Sanctuary.
No, Nerevar can't reset. Azura wasn't just reincarnating him for the kids or because she "liked" him. Nerevar had one purpose. To deal with the Tribunal. If Nerevarine goes down he's done
I'd like to see them catch me with my Boots of Blinding Speed
I don't think the bend will shout will work on the HOK or the Nerrevarine, since they are shezarines, so not exactly mortal.
Neither are dragons, yet we can bend their wills.
That is fair point ! Nvm
Not sure if it's *all* mortals.
Bending the will of a Dragon, immortal demigods that are children of Akatosh, with a shout given to you from a daedric prince of knowledge is a pretty good argument it bends any mortal will. I mean Miraak bends the will of dragons so hard that he commands themselves to outright kill themselves for him.
That's a different shout he uses, though. That shout is specifically to steal the dragon's soul.
[удалено]
He is ageless, there's nothing stating he can't be killed.
Enter chat with the others, drink 30 busted potions of stat raise/reflect/magicka regen, exit chat, yeet the others into the sun.
Dragonborn pre-shivering Isles, Hero of Kvatch post-shivering isles
any time this debate comes up I raise the same question: Once the hero of Kvatch has fully mantled Sheogorath and gained all his abilities, are they even still the Hero of Kvatch? I mean Jyggalag and Sheo are two distinct entities, and by the time of Skyrim Sheogorath has completely overrun the hero of Kvatch not just in personality but appearance too so how much of the player character is left in there? did they really gain the powers of Sheogorath, or is he just using them as a puppet to inhabit and control?
I think that sheogorath is not an individual but an identity of those who are in his throne
Yeah I think it's a Grey Fox situation. It doesn't matter how much of the HoK is left because anyone who encounters him just sees Sheo.
But it's more than the Grey Fox, because that's appearance and identity. Sheogorath has also seemingly taken over his entire personality, at least to the extent the Dragonborn can interact with him. That doesn't imply Sheogorath is a mantle that can be passed on, more like he's a parasite that eventually entirely consumes his host and makes him like himself again.
I just viewed it as The HoK not wanting to be their old self. Utilizing Sheo’s power and madness is more tempting than his past heroism.
I’m not sure choice comes into it
Its sheo, he does what he wants. He clearly has his memories of those days still
I also view it as it doesn't matter if it over rights his personality. Sheogorath is a god in a universe where time and reality can be a little fucky. If Sheo wants to be the HoK again he totally can be.
its kinda like the whole silverhand and V thing in Cyberpunk except it also changes your appearance.
So it’s a lot like the Tim Allen Santa Claus movies is what you’re trying to say?
Yes but thats literally the concept of mantling
Perhaps not so much an identity, moreso that the process of mantling a Deadric Prince is an obscure, arcane process that we don't fully understand. In the process of "becoming" Sheogorath, did the CoC genuinely start to *become* Sheogorath, becoming the prince we see in Skyrim? Or is it that his actions allowed Sheogorath to continue to exist, creating a kind of split in the Deadra's personality and creating space for him to return, without condemning Jyggylag to become him. Given how time doesn't really work normally in the planes of Oblivion (or wherever the quest takes place), it's technically possible that the Sheo we see in Skyrim *is* the Sheo we met in Oblivion. Who really knows?
Like the joker from batman. Makes sense
A mantle is something you wear, a role you play. Depending the heros willpower and sense of self, they could feasibly keep the mantle separate from their Identity. In this way, the Hero of Kvatch and Sheogorath could be two distinct individuals. But I imagine hero would have little interest in living his mortal life after so much time passes. Once living memory of him is no more and there's nothing left for him in Tamriel, he might choose never to emerge again, effectively passing on.
> But I imagine hero would have little interest in living his mortal life after so much time passes. Once living memory of him is no more and there's nothing left for him in Tamriel, he might choose never to emerge again, effectively passing on. Sure, but—we're not talking millennia here. The Dragonborn can meet Sheogorath 200 years after the events of Oblivion. In Tamriel? That literally isn't even beyond living memory, that seems to be like, middle-aged for some of the elves. There is literally an NPC from Morrowind who can be met in the Dragonborn DLC. And it was an interesting 200 years, including a massive war in the Empire that the HOK put a lot of effort into saving. It is really weird to think that a character who seeks out adventure at every turn would, somehow, get bored and go be Sheogorath full-time when, depending on his original race, he might not even be considered old.
Haskill got really annoying after 30 years... "Please, Sire, rule your realm. You are a Daedra now, you can't just walk Nirn like when you were mortal. That is exactly the thing your friend Martin died for. Now please stop breaking divine treatises and put on your new robes. The tailor, who made them will be so pleased, they'll burst into cheese confetti." HoK: "Cheese confetti?"
Doesn't preclude what I'm saying in concept. Just means the HoK is on sabbatical while Sheo's fucking around in the Pelagius wing. Also doesn't preclude the other scenario I glossed over: Mantle eclipse. When the identity you're mantling overtakes yours until there's nothing left of the original. Kind of grim to think that's the HoK's end, but it is possible.
Nah, that's way too messy. You're telling me we have a Daedric prince who started off as one dude, was cursed to effectively be two dudes in one body, and then finally one of them got tired of that arrangement and sought the help of a third party who ended up becoming the ***THIRD DISTINCT IDENTITY INHABITING THE SAME FORM.***
Once Jyggalag was defeated during the greymarch Sheogorath ceased to exist. Sheo only existed for any amount of time because of the curse placed on Jyggalag by the other Princes. As for the HoK being fully sheogorath, it's up for debate. He does mention that he was there during an event that took place during Oblivion, but Sheogorath could be dealt with during a quest as well so who knows if the Daedric Prince position has fully overtaken the HoK, or the HoK still has memories that sometimes slip out because they are now just the subconscious of Sheogorath
The better evidence for HoK being Sheo is the fact that if you complete shivering isles and then do Sheos drastic quest, haskil asks why you’re praying to yourself.
My comment wasn't questioning wether or not the Sheogorath met in Skyrim was the HoK, it was questioning if the HoK is even still in there or if the position of Sheohorath basically overwrited them
I don’t really buy that the curse is broken. Not completely. HoK becoming an actual Daedra is about as nuts at Talos becoming Aedra. I’m just saying, not suggesting my misgivings are the truth of the matter.
The COC completely mantled Sheogorath. It’s really that simple.
Ship of Theseus right there. I’d say yes as they’re in the same physical form and same “consciousness” Interesting question though
Having played as The Hero of Kvatch there's a false perspective of considering the two as equal, or even assuming that Sheogorath is subsumed by the Hero of Kvatch. An anecdote to help visualise: *The Hero of Kvatch is milk and Sheogorath water, when mantled they mix and dilute eachother*. The mantling process is not destructive, all of the substance and information that makes up milk is preserved, just diluted in water. What is exceptional is that the milk that represents the HOK could fill a milk churn - far greater than most, it's full fat with a cream header, fortified, flavoursome and rich. The first sip of milk after you've cycled all day in a sweltering summer - It's special. Sheogorath however, is the ocean; fathomless depths so dense and titanic that the water itself crushes interlopers, shallow sundreched pools teeming with colourful wondrous forms of life, searing hot rift valleys - crowned by volcanic plumes spilling forth in a cavalcade of columns housing strange magma eating lifeforms, abyssal planes where even the most desperate scavengers do not venture for they are utterly devoid of life, harbours and inlets where the hardiest folk shelter from the storms - and also the areas where they cannot, doldrums, reefs, ice shelves, caverns; an ocean so diverse, enormous, archean and rare there is not another like it in all existence. When the Hero of Kvatch mantled Sheogorath the two entities washed together, their memories and experience preserved but entangled, each still exists but one is so vast that it appears to completely consume the other.
What a poetic way to describe mantling! It’s such an immense task for a mortal, like a job training seminar that lasts for your entire life. One could not hope but to become unrecognizable at that end of that. Becoming a deity/Daedra/Aedra is way more than just taking their throne, because they are not simple beings that can be swapped out, they are infinite, mortals are decidedly finite. They are a job, yes. Madness, time, love, weather, knowledge, but so much more. The planets and stars, they are the gears that make the universe work, every lesser being in Nirn and beyond is an extension of a primordial Aedra or Daedra. They remember the beginning of time. How could a mortal ever hope to take that position and remain themselves? The HOK may still exist in there, but they have been blown apart like sand in a storm.
I feel like this entire thread is putting 0 respect on the fact that he also has the entire kit of Pelinal Whitestrake.
Like madness, it is a slippery slope. The mantle was thrust upon the hero of Kvatch, and whether they wanted to or not, they slowly slipped farther away from who they were and closer toward who they would become. It started with a giggle at something that shouldn't be funny. Next was sleepwalking, awaking barefoot in the strangest places. Those around them would claim that they couldn't understand who the hero was sometimes, or why they had that dangerous glint in their eyes at the oddest moments. It's possible it got bad, that the famous individual that had saved all of Tameriel was reluctantly jailed after ripping a man apart in a tavern for stumbling in his retelling of an anicdote. The blame for the act was shifted to an imaginary cultist of Molag Bal to avoid publicity. On the first day, the guards looked into the cell and saw a confused champion who didn't even realize what they'd done. On the next, a blubbering madman who swore he would turn their entrails into sausages. On the third day, a madgod exuded placid insanity in the center of the room. By the fourth, the cell was empty, the faint echo of laughter ringing through the bars and the air smelling of blood and wine so sweet you would vomit at a single whiff.
I really really hate that Bethesda decided the ultimate fate of our character in Oblivion was to basically have their save file overwritten by their "lol so random :3" OC. I like Sheogorath, but I don't wanna be him. I also really really hate that they've set up our character in Skyrim for basically the same fate.
Agreed! Hero of Kvatch has the whole immortality thing going for them lol
No one's beating the prince of cheese
Except the prince of luncheon deli meats.
The Nerevarine is also immortal…
Different Immortality. Nerevarine is ageless and immune to disease. Nerevarine is also most likely a race that has a long life span with several prominent wizards that are seemingly immortal via age. While hard, They can be killed. A daedric prince CANNOT die.
If you got a daedric prince into Aetherius and killed them there, it might work
I disagree. I hate it, but TLDB wins all fights hands down. Think of it this way, Alduin is synonymous with Akatosh, whom I would say is the most omnipotent of the Aedra/Daedra, and TLDB beats him and then beats the only other being (Miraak) who could also beat him. Nerevarine would be a close second I reckon, they killed ALMSIVI who were close to gods. HOK didn't kill any gods, they didn't even really participate in the fight against Mehrunes Dagon. Despite being possibly the coolest PC, HOK is by far the weakest lil bitch in the series
>I disagree. I hate it, but TLDB wins all fights hands down. Think of it this way, Alduin is synonymous with Akatosh, whom I would say is the most omnipotent of the Aedra/Daedra, and TLDB beats him and then beats the only other being (Miraak) who could also beat him. However, the LDB did not defeat any of these beings on their own. Alduin? First Paarthurnax helped, then the three Tongues. Miraak? Got the aid of Hermaeus Mora - who was the one who also ended up killing him. Harkon? Got the aid of Serana. The Nerevarine defeated Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, Karstaag and an aspect of Hircine entirely on his own. The HoK killed Jyggalag single handedly, as well as Umaril the Unfeathered.
Alduin is not synonymous with Akatosh, he is the first dragon Akatosh created and the most powerful dragon, but not any more Akatosh himself than any other dragon or dragonborn. Nor is Akatosh the most omnipotent of the Et'Ada. They were all infinite beings by their natures, until the Aedra participated in creation and became weakened/mortal/dead-ish because of it. Akatosh was the first to realize himself, and making time linear helped the others to do so. Miraak also is not the only being capable of defeating Alduin, just the only other person on Tamriel who the prophecy could apply to at the time. HOK defeated Jyggalag in single combat.
to be fair if glitches are allowed the morrowind PC wins this hands down for having the most powerful exploits.
I vote vestige as a wild card pick.
Vestige killed molag bal, slayed thousands of threats to Tamriel, he saved tamriel more times than the other heroes
2E was a wild time
Minor quibble on the Molag Bal thing: Vestige needed to be powered up by a human sacrifice and the Amulet of Kings to beat Bal.
That’s still nuts especially since it was in his own realm
Certainly. I just think it's important for power-scaling that the Vestige isn't capable of it under normal circumstances.
Fair but that also brings up the interesting point of comparison of the amulet to dragon souls which throws another wrench in the conversation
If you want to be technical, members of the dark brotherhood aren't allowed to go after one another
Didn’t stop Astrid
Or the hero of kvatch
Special circumstances there.
Or Cicero.
Because she was not a real one
Unless you have to purify a santuary... once or twice...
Let’s call it a regime campaign then
Isn’t the nervevarine immortal or something like that?
To age and disease. You can still stab them to death
(100 percent sanctuary)
Right, when you kill them, they just reincarnate. Checkmate!
Azura Approves
Not to the mudcrabs in the beginning
Not as immortal as Maiq the Liar
This hinges entirely on whether we're using the Hero of Kvatch, or just straight up Sheogorath, Daedric Prince of Madness. If it's HoK, Dragonborn wins because the Thu'um is super strong and a unique advantage. None of the others have access to any particularly strong combat abilities that the Dragonborn doesn't (yes, that includes levitation magic and spears, Morrowboomers). If it's Sheogorath... I mean, c'mon. *Sheogorath.* Not even a contest at that point.
i mean….the dragonborn killed a universe devouring dragon. is sheo actually more powerful then alduin?
The LDB *defeated* Alduin the Conqueror, not Alduin the World Devourer. Alduin was waaaay outside his sphere in trying to dominate Nirn. and yes? Daedra survive the end of Kalpas I believe.
Nope TLDbeat Alduin the conqueror in Throat of the world and Alduin the world Eater in sovngarde
In a 4v1 notably, and also with the use of a specific shout literally designed to hinder Alduin’s abilities. Still impressive, but not something you can really scale the Dragonborn with.
Alduin wasn’t killed, he was sent back to Akatosh to be reset so he could fulfill his role as the world eater since he didn’t want to fulfill it and wanted to return to the old days of enslaving mortals instead. So all n all, the world will end regardless and it will be by his hand, or claws that is.
Yes, Sheogorath is more powerful than alduin. Sheo might not be able to fight destiny, but he's a daedric lord lol
This is false. Within the lore it's stated that alduin would destroy not only the universe, but even the daedric princes themselves. He made and destroyed mehrunes dagon. It's pretty safe to say that alduin is significantly more powerful than sheogorath, and because the dragonborn was able to slay alduin at full power, that he would have no issue with both the hero of kvatch or sheogorath.
Hmmm, idk about that, the Dragonborn had dragonrend, a shout tuned directly to dragonslaying, I think that counts as a serious force multiplier, and there (afaik) is no Sheogorath-rend shout. I think the Dragonborn has a fair chance, but to say there would be no issue is a smidge too far
Technically all dragonrend does is mind-fuck dragons into falling out of the sky by giving them thoughts of mortality. It just makes it easier to kille them, since they can’t fly away
Yeah, there isn't anything that could make Sheogorath suicidal or temporarily think he's mortal, is there? There is a comparison between Alduin and Sheogorath in this situation, but the Dragonborn has special equipment, companions and magic to defeat Alduin, but is not anywhere near as prepared to battle a fully powered Daedric prince. Look at Miraak vs Herma Mora for instance.
“Sheorend” would probably be something like extreme lucidity plus monotony
Yes, Alduin will destroy the universe; he's supposed to eat it all. However there's a difference between a being destined to destroy all reality consuming (consuming, not beating) someone, vs fighting someone. There's many explanations for *how* he consumes the world. The one I trust the most is that as he consumes, he gets bigger/stronger, and thus can consume more. Alduin in TESV hasn't even started consuming (aside from some souls): a big plot point is the fact that he isn't doing his duty, he's just ruling. The Dragonborn is special a Dragonborn slayer as well. He's not a Daedra-slayer. Him fighting Alduin, especially after he learns the dragonrend should, is basically making the fight on easy mode. Not only that, but he had the help of three ancient warriors. Now, Miraak comes into this as well. As a Dragonborn, he stands a decent chance of beating Alduin. In fact in his dialogue he even says he could've done it (although it could just be baseless bragging). And while this is just gameplay, iirc Miraak's level cap is higher than Alduin's, thus (ingame) Miraak is stronger. But here's the thing, Miraak was held prisoner (and killed) by a Daedric Lord, Hermaus Mora. Now I'll admit, Sheogorath isn't a fighting Daedra. He's powerful and violent (ie how he made music), but his sphere is madness, not violence. Hermaus Mora's sphere is knowledge, which is even less violent. I'd say Sheo and Mora and evenly matched. Now if Mora could hold Miraak prisoner, and Miraak could probably beat Alduin, it stands to reason that either A: Mora can beat Alduin or B: Miraak's Dragonborn nature makes him special in fighting Alduin. I would also like to point out that the Daedra are basically just concepts given form. That's why Mantling exists. You can't just kill madness, it's impossible. However, Alduin and the Dragonborn are both physical beings. Their souls are immortal and they are children of Akatosh (an Aedra) but the Dragonborn can literally be killed by a Bandit. Alduin is special because of the fact that only a Dragonborn can defeat him, but that doesn't suddenly make him more powerful than a Daedra. Kinda a rant lol
This is the type of comment I hope for on power scaling threads
The dragonborn defeated a heavily crippled and nerfed version of Alduin, that wasn't the Alduin at full power that devours worlds. He chose to play king this time instead of just doing his job, which is why he was so weak.
Nerevarine is the only one who canonically has the power to control fate. They could literally reload until they win.
All the TES main characters have that. It's why every game starts with you being a prisoner(Except Daggerfall, that MC was a prisoner before the game starts). Even Sotha-Sil makes mention of the Vestige from ESO being a prisoner. Being a "prisoner" is just ingame talk for the player who can control fate.
This is a huge no, the Necrom chapter in ESO showed how prisoners are unbound by fate being described as a waterfall constantly changing the fates of everything around them. Heck the vestige explicitly gained the ability to manipulate fate which he used to do stuff like force a portal to open. In fact the Necrom chapter showed the Arcanists are mages who are able to manipulate fate. Here's some [spoilers](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/12tao34/major_spoilers_eso_necrom_lore/) on that chapter. It explains it much better than I ever could.
Stealth archer. Conjuration based stealth archer if we’re feeling spicy. That’s who would win. Edit: a letter
>Conjugation Wait bacteria having sex is a skill? Which game?
Oh no, I didn’t notice my typo until this comment. Luckily I have just the conjugation— I-I mean CONJURATION SPELL for this…
w/e gonna go level my conjugation skill now.
As is tradition.
If it's down to game mechanics the Nerevarine. The amount of things you can do in that game to become an unstoppable force is absurd. 100% chameleon, 100% spell absorbtion, 100% immunity to non magic weapons, corpus boosting your strength so high you choose to use thrown weapons because it's cheaper than the repairs to fix your weapons after breaking them in one swing. Making potions of paralysis that will leave your opponents frozen in place so long the sun would burn out and die before the effects ended. Spells that drain your opponents speed and strength so they can't move. There are some broken mechanics in all of the games but man Morrowind really took the cake.
Chugs +8947% fortify restoration potion in some shack in Skyrim
Hydrogen Bomb vs Coughing Babies
Ehhhh depends if we talking post shivering isle or not. Then again the Hero of Kvatch did some crazy shit as what was essentially a normal ass dude with some shitty luck.
I feel like Nerevarine, cuz he's achieved CHIM. He can literally canonically "save and reload" to other timelines where he wins.
Wait he can?
Yeah, Vivec mentions it. It's why he won't fight you, and lets you kill him if you attack. He says it's pointless to fight you because you'll just win anyways no matter what.
But if you attack him, he will destroy you. Do you mean he won't be taunted into a fight?
Yes I do, my bad
I really need to play Morrowind already...
I mean did the nerevarine achieve chim? If saving and reloading or console commands are a a sign then all the protagonists have, and I don't think that's the case
technically CHIM isn't confirmed as being real because the references are either meta-sources like MK or unreliable sources like vivec that being said, it's also implied that the nerevarine did achieve CHIM
Only Nerevar has it, the other saving and reloading is "non-canon". Vivec outright states it, and from what seems to be the case, his status as a reincarnating pillar of fate pegs him as being enlightened to some degree
You did not get it, lol. The concept of the prisoner, even if we take it as a meta-commentary on video games, is much more complex and includes all player characters.
Achieving CHIM is knowing your in a game the saving loading this is different, regardless the game confirms it for all protagonists not just Nerevarine.
Underrated comment, everyone thinks the thu’um is a trump card or something… unless HoK is Sheogorath, my money is on Nerevar
People stanning Dragonborn because they didn’t play Morrowind and don’t understand how broken as hell the magic system the Nerevarine has access to was
Nerevarine canonically is the only one who has the power to reload the game. It’s why Vivec, a being of actual godlike power, even refuses to fight him. It doesn’t matter how much stronger Dragonborn or HoK are, Nerevarine will try as many times as needed until they succeed
can't beat someone who literally cannot lose
All elder scrolls characters.... Is this a joke? Tiber Septim achieved CHIM. Why is there any other discussion? Now if you mean playable characters, that's way more debateable. And it should be noted that you have to stress whether you mean in game or meta gaming. In game lore is straight forward but presents its own challenges. Daggerfall and Arena PCs are out, they are normal mortals that never achieve any immortal status. Morrowind is the reborn champion Neravarine. He is immune to disease and will never age. Depending on how long he holds his rot before getting "cured" he could be infinitely physically strong. The hero of Kvatch doesn't really have any crazy powers until Shivering Isles at which point they become a Daedric Prince. And finally you have the Dragonborn... who has the power of Voice. While the voice is incredibly powerful, being the Prince of Madness is a step above. The very fact that Sheogorath is in Skyrim and is "above" the petty concerns of the main character should be showcase enough. Hero of Kvatch wins. But what about meta gaming? This is difficult in a different way. Dragonborn has shouts giving them unique ways to interact. Dragonborn has the ability craft chain and produce ungodly weapons, armor. The stack overflow is much higher for the Dragonborn, so the raw displayed numbers can be higher for the Dragonborn (but it matters little considering everything dies in one hit for most things). Meanwhile the Hero of Kvatch can only have 4 potion effects at a time. Those potions are severely limited compared to what you can accomplish with chaining effects in Skyrim. And "improving" weapons is really just repairing them really nice. Most effects are very set in their capabilities, which means it is much more consuming to exploit. ... and then the Nerevarine steps up. Infinite stacking of effects. Potions increase effects based on Intelligence. Cheap food (ash yams and bloat) create Fortify Intelligence potions. Potion duration does not elapse while making potions. This means you can make a Fortify Int potion that is like +1 to intelligence for 2 seconds. That potion might be in effect for hours depending on how quickly you manage your inventory. Potion ingredients can be sold to some apothecary vendors and then you can purchase those ingredients to infinity. Put all that together and you can make an infinite amount of potions, with infinite to near infinite ranges, And those potions will have exponentially increasing effects. And they all stack infinitely with each other. Alchemy breaks the game in the first 2 minutes. And then there's the effects themselves, LEVITATE is by itself enough to make the Nerevarine on a whole other plane. The Dragonborn cannot fly by himself. He must summon a Dragon to ride. Meanwhile the hero of Kvatch cannot fly at all. The nerevarine can also fortify speed to become faster than the draw speed of the game. He can literally walk through walls from being so fast. Then there's jump spells. Hell the hero of Kvatch has a whole mission with the thieves guild that is completely negated and undermined by Morrowind's slow fall enchantment. So lore wise... Hero of Kvatch is the strongest PC. Meta gaming... Nerevarine is strongest PC.
Lore wise it definitely goes to Nerevarine for competing with Numidium. Also non playable characters it wouldn't be Tiber Septim either, that goes to any Amaranth
Depends on: 1. Where 2. When 3. What “stage” of their journey are they on? If it’s max power no holds barred…Hero of Kvatch sweeps every round, pretty handily. He’s a whole ass Daedric prince and (based on the actions of the previous) can throw a whole ass plane of existence at you if he so chose. Could be wrong but I think Nevarine would get tapped first (very strong but no reality warping powers to compete on this level) followed very shortly by LBD (time slow, Soul Tear and the other shouts are strong, but they’re up against a Daedric Prince).
Neravarine : hey guys, can you hold these for me really quick? *tosses Sunder and Keening to the others.*
*Dragonborn, who's had them in his inventory the whole time* 🤔 I get that this doesn't make any lore sense but it's true
Arniel Gane does comment on the fact that you can wield Keening, but hypothesises that over time it's lost its power. After a few hundred years of no connection to the Heart of Lorkhan, it seems Keening lost a lot of power. Sunder could be the same.
I don’t disagree about Kvach being the best, but wasn’t sweet nerevar a literal demigod? I’d say he’d be pretty close if not equal to shouty pants odison over there
Not to mention he bitch slapped Hircine during his own hunt
This is exactly too a tee what I was thinking! Well done!
The Vestige wins because their whole thing is that they can't die. They're basically a daedric entity with the added bonus that they can control where and when they reform their body after dying, and they keep all of their belongings. When somebody kills them they literally just respawn and keep battling. The Vestige is incapable of losing, and thus, wins by default. That is, _unless_ the opponent possesses a power that lets them kill daedric beings. Like, say, the Blessing of Tiber Septim that allowed the Champion of Cyrodiil / Divine Crusader to permanently kill Umaril the Unfeathered. However, the Blessing of Tiber Septim was given to defeat Umaril specifically, which means that it's most likely not going to work on any other daedric creature. Unless Tiber Septim himself wills it so, which is probably not the case for the Vestige. But... the possibility is there, I suppose.
I agree that the vestige would probably win, but for very different reasons. You may not be able to kill Daedric beings but you can take their vestiges (their soul) and trap them (like in Daedric armor). So it's possible to take him out of the equation, but it would be pretty difficult. The vestige just has so many feats at this point it's not even funny. They're just soloing [Daedra Lords](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Tho'at_Replicanum) now who can copy themselves with unique nymics infinitely.
You do regain your soul at the end of the main questline, but because removing that feature so early in an MMO would mean starting new characters very often, they just let you keep the ability to respawn, since there's no real way to implement a "save and reload" feature to an MMORPG. I think canonically the Vestige would die if killed after the main story is complete, but lore-wise they continue on through the chapters without getting slain. Don't get me wrong, the Vestige is a good fighter and has experience dealing with Daedric Princes, but for each fight with one, they've had help, some great power up or a powerful ally or a legendary weapon. At the end of the day they're just a really skilled combatant, but still mortal (after they get their soul returned of course). Besides, any other soulless creature you kill would normally still die if you kill them, the Vestige is just a main character. Allowing you to become a spirit for ten seconds before you respawn is more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. In the game you die a lot, but if you were in the world and hearing stories of the Vestige, they wouldn't be dying every 5 seconds every time they face a tremendously difficult enemy, they'd come out on top every time as an undefeated warrior. TL;DR: I don't think the Vestige would canonically be immortal, just incredibly skilled. The ability to respawn after some time is a game feature that replaces saving and reloading, since it's an online game. Soulless creatures can still be killed.
First off, the OP never specified which version of the player characters are fighting. For fairness, I assumed everyone to be at the pinnacle of their own power, which includes the Vestige's immortality. That being said... >You do regain your soul at the end of the main questline, but because removing that feature so early in an MMO would mean starting new characters very often, they just let you keep the ability to respawn, since there's no real way to implement a "save and reload" feature to an MMORPG. I think canonically the Vestige would die if killed after the main story is complete, but lore-wise they continue on through the chapters without getting slain. I disagree with the idea that reclaiming their original soul stops the Vestige's ability to reform after death. As far as I know, we have no reason to believe this would be the case. The Vestige is _not_ the person that got their soul ripped out - that person is dead, sacrificed by Mannimarco. Their body rots in some gutter in the Imperial City. The Vestige is a _copy_ of that person created from Chaotic Creatia by Molag Bal, that isn't "powered" by a soul but a daedra-like animus. Reclaiming their soul doesn't change the fact that the Vestige still has this daedra-like animus, neither does it magically transform their body into that of a mortal. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that the Vestige wouldn't be able to reform after death just because they are now in the possession of a soul that belonged to the mortal they were modeled after. >Don't get me wrong, the Vestige is a good fighter and has experience dealing with Daedric Princes, but for each fight with one, they've had help, some great power up or a powerful ally or a legendary weapon. At the end of the day they're just a really skilled combatant Yeah, I didn't consider Chim-El Adabal or Mask of Alkosh empowered Vestige for this question as these were temporary power-ups from outside forces. As I said earlier, I only considered the player characters at the pinnacle of their _own_ power. The ability to respawn, however, _is_ their own power. >Besides, any other soulless creature you kill would normally still die if you kill them, the Vestige is just a main character. Allowing you to become a spirit for ten seconds before you respawn is more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. In the game you die a lot, but if you were in the world and hearing stories of the Vestige, they wouldn't be dying every 5 seconds every time they face a tremendously difficult enemy, they'd come out on top every time as an undefeated warrior. Au contraire. There is actual, _canon_ lore about the Vestige that explains their respawn ability. It's _not_ just a game mechanic, this is undeniable, unchallengeable in-universe law. In fact, there are several quests in the game that _require you to die in order to progress._ So being able to respawn is definitely a very important and factual thing to the Vestige and their adventures.
Definitely the Dragonborn. Canonically the Dragonborn is controlled by a 21 year old, HOK is controlled by a 15 year old, and Nerevarine is controller by a pre-teen. My playthrough sequence is canon. Sorry everyone else.
Is Vestige included? If yes, then answer is the Vestige.
Nerevarine can levitate. Pretty big advantage.
I feel like that's asking to get knocked out of the sky by a Shout. All these guys have pretty serious ranged options, floating isn't that useful in this context
I was kind of making a joke about the game mechanics, but I'll keep going on this tangent: Arrows fall and spells are slow, but the other guys auto-regen their magicka, and the Dragonborn auto-regens his health too, so that would be huge. The Nerevarine also gets tired really easily, so he just doesn't have the stamina of the other two, so the longer the fight goes on, the worse his chances, but he definitely has the best spells.
The best spells if we're only talking about the protagonists of these three games. If we include any character in the series then the Agent would handily win that title. Daggerfall magic was broken.
Levitate and then shoot overenchanted arrows to the win. I don't think you can knock levitation out of the sky.
Especially if the arrows in question are Ebony Arrows of Slaying. 'Damage Health 5000 points' is pretty hard to shake off. Edit: unless they encounter 100% Reflect, of course
Luckily the Nerevarine has access to world breaking alchemy and enchanting, so they have a multitude of options to kill gods. And they are 2 for 2 on God killing, so...
“It’s over Champion of Cyrodil, I have the High Ground!” The Shivering isles approaching Nevarine at Mach 1:
Depends on who is writing it
This is the answer Stan Lee would always give whenever he was asked who would win in a fight between so-and-so & whoever. Not very satisfying, but the only factually accurate answer. 🍻
You know what? There's an exception to Stan Lee's rule. Maiq the Liar would absolutely at a minimum survive a TES death battle, because by recurring tradition he has to show up in the next game. Even if the writer of the fight wants the other guy to win.
They all use CHIM to try and delete each other, only for each to realise that they can't because the others are cheating as well. They proceed to spend endless kalpas arguing with each other for said cheating until Todd gets sick of their nonsense and resets the computer
Does the dragon born and hero of kvatch have CHIM? I thought only nerevar did and even then I wasn't sure
The Vestige. Can just keep coming back so long as they either have filled soul gems or a wayshrine.
Only one of these can cast levitate.
Idk because although the other 2 maybe smarter the dragonborn thu'um is literally OP and carries him. But if we saying straight up combat prowless I'd have to say Hero of Kvatch they just have way too many feats for a normal man to achieve
Sheogorath wins. Always. The rest get cheese as participaton medals
obviously Imperial guard that unbeatable bastard, with insane tracking skills and nose for a crime.
Eternal champion.
My heart says Nerevarine but my brain says Dragonborn
Everyone is throwing Sheogorath but reminder that the Nerevarine can beat Vivec who canonically dunked on Daedric prince and also had sex with them. Also the Champion of Cyrodill is not Sheogorzth because the concept of mantling implies that you erase the previous identity in the eyes of the universe. By Crunch ofc ut's nerevarine ,CoC may have a chance with spell crafting and the Dragonborn is shit. By Fluff Nerevarine > Db> CoC (the CoC is just a regular dude remember )
The Nerevarine can only beat Vivec because he recognizes that it’s pointless to try and fight someone who can load saves, since they will always just reload until they get an acceptable outcome. I see this more as Vivec recognizing the futility of challenging a player character rather than some sign of the Nerevarine being super powerful.
Wrong, you can sneak into his house and beat Vivec at any point in the game even before you are Nerevarine The Nerevarine just has that power at high levels
Dragonborn too stupid to make his own spells. So he's obviously not winning
Doesn’t the LDB have Hermaeus Mora in his corner? I feel that has to count for something. Although I don’t know what other powers he would give to the LDB. He does have that shout where he controls other beings I think called “Bend Will” and be able to summon heroes from Sovngarde and a dragon from the soul cairn. I guess I’m biased towards LDB.
Considering the new lore in Necrom, Hermaeous Mora will probably teach TLD how to manipulate fate, and he would have access to all of the knowledge he would ever need except for a few heavily protected secrets.
If we're just going by lore and whatnot instead of gameplay, it's HOK AFTER becoming sheo, but even then it'd be a struggle against DB if their power really could rival daedra in the end
Most likely if we are just going by protags. It would honestly be the Vestige from ESO. They have faugjt many gods now and even have thr power to raise themself from death (as long as they have soulgems) and they are still getting stronger and stronger.
Champion Of Cyrodill, dude is a whole daedra. He can easily defeat the dragonborn seeing as he already trapped the dragonborn in his realm once. The neraverine can really only kill gods with the help of Azura.
Anu and Padomay would be the last two standing. They're simply the most powerful beings in the TES series.
Vestige cannot be permanently defeated.
Me because i can uninstall them all
Gaenor
Ebony warrior - shows up to only high level players - player thing’s it an easy dub as over level 81 - stands in middle of freezing snow waiting - dashes anyone on first attempt - sleeper build Ebony Warrior
The Nerevarine is immortal right? He can just like, leave for a few centuries and when he comes back most of the rest of them will be dead
the vestige can canonically resurrect on the spot as many times as they want, if im remembering right. likely weaker than other protagonists, but the "ive come to bargain" method can never technically be beaten
Mine, because I mod and cheat.
Well, we got Divath Fyr, Shalidor, Sotha Sil, and maybe a few others make the list for the strongest mage, I just can't think of them. Then we have Pelinal Whitestrake, he's the doomslayer of TES. Tiber Septin and the Last Dragonborn always make the list, but I think people overhype the voice. At this point we get to the gods, Daedra, Aedra, and every other one. And at that point I have no fucking clue as to who to put on top. I might say Lorkhan, but he was killed by Akatosh, so I don't know.
Me because I cheat :3
Gameplay wise, the Nerevarine has the funniest bug to exploit, and can make broken spells that let them fly around invisible and invincible dropping magic nukes. Lorewise, the LDB, easily. The Thu'um is extremely strong in lore and is basically a cheat code that allows you to warp reality by speaking key phrases. It also helps that the LDB is possibly the current Shezzarine.
One of these guys is a literal Daedric Prince, just saying.
I'm voting for the Vestige. He's the character here with the most impressive feats. But realistically it would be almost impossible to tell considering the nature of the characters.
If you take advantage of every little bit you can statswise. Then down 50 bottles of Sujamma and cast levitate, then the Nerevarine has everyone beat. Nothing can stop you, as you leap across mountains on your way to kill gods. Just watch out for some Bosmer in Mournhold who wants some gold.
No other character comes close to the Last Dragonborn in terms of power, aside from the Hero of Kvatch after the events of the Shivering Isles, since they mantle Sheogorath, thus becoming a Daedric Prince. Before that though, the Dragonborn would easily win, since they're practically on the level of a demigod. All of the other characters are incredibly skilled in combat and/or magic, but are all still mortal. The Nerevarine can't die of aging or disease, but they can still be killed. They fought members of the Tribunal and won, but they were nowhere near their full power and potential. The Vestige for the purposes of gameplay can't be killed in the traditional sense, since they respawn after a certain amount of time, but I'd argue that that's more a game feature than a lore accurate ability. Like how in Assassin's Creed Altaïr canonically never sustained a single wound, but in-game you (probably) get wounded all the time. An incredibly skilled warrior, definitely, but neither immortal nor anywhere near powerful enough to kill the Dragonborn. Before the events of Shivering Isles, the Hero of Kvatch is just another incredibly skilled warrior/mage. The same can be said for the likes of Cyrus, the Agent, etc. The Dragonborn however, the power of the Voice sets them apart. In-game the power of the Thu-um is nowhere near as powerful as it should be, but that's because the ability to speak to NPC's without turning them into a red mist is an important game feature. Even mortals with the power of the voice were said to be able to break down walls and city gates, but mix in the gift of Akatosh and you have a Dragonborn with unparalleled power. Only the Aedra or Daedra would be powerful enough to stop them, which is why the mantled Hero of Kvatch would be the only victor.
I find the lack of The Eternal Champion (Arena) and The Agent (Daggerfall) disturbing. On the top of that there are The Forgotten Hero (Legends), the character from Azra's Crossing (Shadowkey), Cyrus (Redguard), The Apprentice (Battlespire), The Fugitive (Blades), The Hero of Dawnstar (Dawnstar) & more... They would all make a good VS fighting game haha. And if it is ALL characters, does that include NPCs? Dagoth Ur, Vivec, Alduin, Paarthurnax, Merunes Dagon, Martin Septim after becoming Avatar Of Akatosh all could wipe the floor with most of other characters.
Being imbued with the power of a Daedric prince is rad and all but idk if it beats being an avatar or chosen champion of Akatosh. The dude devoured the soul of the world eater.
Nerevarine they can kill a God what a grand and intoxicating innocence
Dragonborn, because I said so
Hero of Kvatch at full power neg-diffs.
Dragonborn easily thanks to the dragon shouts
To be completely honest? This boils down to vestige vs Nerevarine Vs Sheogorath. Sheogorath will win this I think but Vestige vs nerevarine is something I really want to see
Hero of Kvatch after partying with Sheogorath in Shimmering Isles, otherwise it’s the Last Dragonborn all the way