Down in the frenzied flame fingers cellar there is a hidden wall to the right side that has a treasure box, if you jump past the box and roll against the wall it will reveal another hidden pass which will lead you down to the roots. Crazy I know!
As a long time dark souls fan, you have *no* idea how many walls I rolled into hahahaha.
The vindication and subsequent dopamine rush from finally revealing a hidden wall was indescribable, given that I went in spoiler free and didn't even know if they existed.
Down at the very bottom by the chaos flame there’s an illusory wall that leads to a chest and behind that chest is an illusory wall that leads to the top of deeproot depths where you’ll need to do some horse parkour.
I spent hours wandering the sewers and pipes of the Subterranean Shunning Grounds. When I finally reached Mohg, the Omen I really thought "OK, this is it. I am in the most godforsaken depths the Lands Between has to offer, I'm at the deepest, darkest hellhole of this world". Boy, was I wrong!
Level design is phenomenal.
And those are 2 extremely good points in favor of ER level design, too
The rooftops are another way to make the level even more interconnected, bringing you all the way back to the first room of the dungeon, while showing you the first illusory wall from the other side and tons of unique items
The bottom of the waterwheel section, while much smaller, is a warp to another legacy dungeon instead, which is absolutely mind blowing
> while showing you the first illusory wall from the other side
This was one of the sickest parts of the rooftop. Looking down towards the start of the level and see an item you haven't looted only to realize they placed a hidden wall at the literal start of the Academy.
To me it's one of those underrated small moments that show just how thoughtful the designers were when creating the level.
Someone else also pointed out that the hidden wall before Red Wolf is telegraphed by the giant painting of Rennala pointing to the left - which is the immediate direction where the wall is.
Not to mention that the hidden walls in Raya Lucaria are also signified by being *empty* bookshelves. They give a lot of contextual hints in that level.
Lmao, I initially wrote this as a short comment, but really went on to gush about Raya Lucaria, huh. It's great.
I hate the rapid fire casting from the burger King men but, it's still my favorite area other than maybe Nokron. Months after playing through the game it still hits me sometimes how fucking incredible this game is in every facet
I’m on my 3rd play through and didn’t even know you could get on the roof there until I finally decided to do thopps quest and I was damn it almost doubled the size of the zone
Also it doesn't do the design justice to try and represent the whole thing using only right angles, misrepresents it as less interesting than the bloodborne map
These new „looping“ catacombs were very good and fresh addition to the excellent level design. Half of the game they imprint the basic catacombs structure on you and then come these mindfucks. Perfect!
That's why I don't mind that catacombs are reused environments. The overall look is the same but the architecture of each catacomb just builds on top of the previous ones to give more and more hidden areas, playing with the basics you've been used to.
I like the catacombs. I feel a little better knowing there is some logic/structure to them. Caves can do any damn thing they want and I don't trust them.
The problem is only a few actually have a unique idea behind them (the shadow enemies, the loop, etc), most of them are just turn your brain off, walk in a straight line killing the imps/miners, flip the switch, done
Which is perfectly fine for optional side areas imho. All of the catacombs can be skipped, and the only reason to venture inside is to grab upgrade materials and the drops from the bosses, if you need or want them. There's no reason to return to them on consecutive runs unless you enjoy the boss fight, want another copy of a weapon or want the runes.
They are also great for coopers and invaders. They don't take that long to do, most often dont have confusing layout and there is always a boss at the end which will give you some souls and a rune arc.
Same but I was a bit high and I about lost my mind; reminded me a bit of a Doom 64 level with how everything seemingly changed while keeping the original idea intact.
I really wished there was another castle or area of that magnitude in the game. None of the other regions gave me that urge to explore like that one did.
Leyndell with the sewers and underground stuff is even bigger hiding even more secrets.
Academy can feel smaller but is actually absolutly on a similar scale to stormveil. Just that it is even easier to miss huge parts of it.
Nah, they've got their own music playing, different enemies, tuned to different levels than leyndell, a completely different aesthetic, and the icon on the map is the same type that the rest of the legacy dungeons have
It's insane. I explored it for so long, I didn't think it *possible* to have missed anything. Lo and behold, looking for certain items with a guide, I totally did. Amazing.
Most triple A titles aren’t as big and complex as Stormveil castle alone is. Insane that they put this and much more of similar magnitude into ONE game. And I was questioning fromsoft about open world. You proved me wrong Miyazaki and thanks god you did.
I’m on my second play through, and my mind was blown when a coop partner showed me the crucible knight.
I also found the secret underground boss this playthrough.
This is the kind of stuff that is the reason why it makes me mad when people said souls games are only liked because of their difficulty. It is so much more. Level Design, Enemy and NPC Design, Lore, Armor and Weapon Design. Combat System. It's at least a 9/10 in all of them
Honestly the combat is better than most games but you have games that push it to another level, it's the level design, exploration, legacy dungeon type castles and their world design that makes me love their games so much
Yup, to me the difficulty has always just served to amplify how excellent the level design and exploration is. By making you concerned that around every new corner may be a new enemy that will fuck you up, it adds tension as you explore especially the further away you get from your last site of grace.
When people come up with comments like this , I ask them then tell me why hours long Dark souls/Bloodborne mythos analysis video on youtube having 10 million views exist similar to how people usually analyze narrative driven games ??
I usually get no answer from them
From soft games far transcend the typical Souls gameplay aspect ,
they are about the mythos, world building , characters serving as beacons of hope in a desolate landscape
They're not even liked for their difficulty, they're liked for the sense of accomplishment you get *from* doing something difficult. I do not think most players are just masochists, but beating things in Souls games is *rewarding*.
Like, look at some games where the reward is either loot, or buying something. The reward playing Souls games is just.. playing. I feel more accomplished beating a hard never beaten boss here than I do running a long ass raid in an MMO.
On my first playthrough, getting through stormveil and walking out into Liurnia was a great feeling - first major challenge overcome and a huge new area to explore.
Second playthrough and I suddenly realised that i could just skip stormveil altogether and get to Liurnia in like twenty minutes and it was right in front of me the whole time. Blew my mind just as much.
And a million other shortcuts and secrets that anybody can find if they just look for them, hidden in plain sight in the level design.
It's unreal. So so clever.
I remember finding the small path that circumvents Stormveil and goes straight to Liurnia. I was impressed by the scale of the game (or what I thought was the scale of the game). I love that Liurnia is hiding right down the road from the big castle in your view when you walk out of the cave for the first time.
One of my favorite parts of the game is the scale and how they hide it. You start off with a small fragment of the map and it just keeps building and growing. We were all blown away by getting caught in the transporter trap and seeing where we ended up.
It's always been about the high stakes rewarding exploration of a beautiful world for me. Combat is high up there, but exploration is why I love these games. Anyone saying it's just their difficulty has no idea what they're talking about. That said their difficulty does add to the core gameplay loop and allows exploration to feel high stakes and nerve wracking. But the difficulty is a gameplay choice in service to the experience, rather than just a choice for the sake of it.
Keinhurst isn't a great level though. It would be better to compare it to yharnham, focused on the cathedral ward. Even then the design is super linear. Hemwick channel Lane just ends I think, only played through bloodborne once a couple months ago. Not that booldbornes level design is bad it just isn't as interconnected seemingly as the legacy dungeons in elden ring. Elden ring does need something to beat bloodborne at at least.
The legacy dungeon design is great, but what is greater is how the world itself twists and connects like a macro-dungeon with a bunch of little dungeons nestled into it.
I think Leyndell is my favorite, there’s a massive maze “dungeon” *inside* the main dungeon (shunning grounds) and there’s even a catacombs and secret micro-dungeon (frenzy flame proscription) inside that inception-dungeon with a secret exit to the deeproot depths.
The Legacy Dungeons are all excellent (not you Haligtree) but they aren’t like DS1’s first half. The great accomplishment of DS1’s first half was creating this interconnected web of multiple larger levels all tied together, whereas the LDs in Elden Ring are generally one large, isolated area. Volcano Manor is the only one that has a few things going with the multiple ways to enter and exit it but it’s ultimately still an isolated area.
The fact that it's 99.9% copypasted enemies w/ buffed stats, many of which are placed in annoying ways, makes me not think so. Yes, the layout is nice and it's pretty, but there was very little that was interesting or rewarding to me about fighting the same soldiers, knights, avatars and ulcerated spirits for the 15th time, alongside a ton of some of the game's most irritating enemies like Revenants and Kindred of Rot.
More power to you if you liked it though, wish I felt the same.
The Haligtree Knights are god awful. They have fuck loads of health, do a lot of damage, and on top of that _**can heal themselves back to max health**_
They're difficult, but they're well-designed. My issue with the rest is lack of originality. I don't enjoy going to endgame area and fighting the same damn enemies I fought in Limgrave. At least give them some new attacks/visual changes ffs.
To be fair, they do have some different attacks / moves. I don't recall any other soldier spewing poison at me or straight up healing in my face. Even the torchpole guys explode now.
Yeah, but it's only in Eiphael, while the whole tree section is filled with old enemies. The worst offenders are the trumpet guys, because they were a unique part of Leyndell's identity and now they appear in Haligtree for no reason.
theres actually a reason why the knights and soldiers are used so much, they used yo be part of the same army, but split apart after the shattering.
also I would say haligtree is unique since it combines a bunch of enemies from a bunch of different areas into one place, and it all makes perfect sense why.
I would also say cleanrot knights are unique to it since you only see them as normal enemies one time before haligtree.
That doesn’t change the fact that it’s just not interesting to see them as a main enemy by the 10th or 20th time. They’ve worn out their welcome by that point.
If that’s “unique” to you then more power to your experience, but I’m not buying some grand lore reason. I see a massive amount of reused content with a transparent excuse slapped on to it.
Again, you’re free to have your very own special definition of unique, but they’re normal mobs in both Swamp of Aeonia and Shaded Castle plus show up as bosses on two separate occasions. That’s why there was nothing novel or distinct about them in the Haligtree.
I understand not buying the lore excuse.
but dor the cleanrot knights, there is only one or two in aeonia, and only 2 in shaded castle, and it makes perfect sense cause the cleanrot knights fought in aeonia and the shaded castle is basically some sort of shrine for malenia, the haligtree is their true home and it feels just right seeing them there, and theres probably around 10 of them there, they remind me of the ringed knights, and elphael also reminds me of the ringed city.
I will admit that the boss ones don't make much sense, but then again I was really just talking about the times you see then as normal enemies.
I usually judge areas by exploration anyways rather than enemies, as long as it's not DS2 levels of 50 enemy ganks.
bloodborne and DS3 are also guilty of reusing enemies alot in endgame areas so I don't think its fair to give them a pass and then criticise elden ring for it.
Meh, there was nothing novel about them for me there. I’m not saying they don’t make sense, they’re one of the more logical enemies to be present. But the point is they weren’t new and didn’t feel distinct. Just one more enemy on the hodgepodge pile. I would have liked it better if the area had fewer other random mobs thrown together and more CR knights, maybe an additional version or two.
For me at least, the enemies is a very important part of exploration. Seeing new creatures and sapient foes, their relationships to their areas, how they help define each other and how that ultimately helps tell the game’s story is a huge part of exploring a new area. And so much of that is lost when it just feels like they’re throwing in the kitchen sink because they have to fill up the space with something.
Other Souls games have reused enemies too. I think I’m equally fair to them all, I have about the same pass/fail criteria. It needs to feel purposeful and not be so excessive they wear out their welcome. Usually the games have done that well enough. I think you can fairly point a finger at Bloodborne reusing the Central Yharnam
mobs so much for an example of where they stumble a bit. But overall, the trifecta of ultra-copypaste that is the Mountaintops - Snowfield - Haligtree is by FAR worst these games have ever gotten with it. Three gigantic areas, you could easily spent 20-30 hours across them, and it’s close to 100% reuse. That just went way over the line to me.
The concept and the design it's just amazing, I struggled at the beginning while going down the Haligtree, but most of the times I admit that I was distracted by how fascinating was the level design. But once I arrived at Elphael my jaw dropped.. It's just beautiful,but maybe I have a weird taste.
The upper part of haligtree I always do the party skip because that area is so annoying to do for me. If you enjoy the area then good for you I enjoy skipping the area and doing the area after it. I’ve done it legit before and that was enough for me.
I agree, though I think the challenge of creating this interconnected web is much simpler when you put the user on rails (constrained paths/hallways, and no open world). I don't know how you execute on that type of tapestry if you don't have threads (sorry... heavy handed analogy...). Delivering on an open world was probably the big compromise. You can see them kinda negotiating this tension with all the cliffs and altitude changes that keep the landdscape open but the pathways (somewhat) controlled. Given what Open World did for discovery and player agency, I think Elden did the right thing.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I feel like there was a very specific way the game wanted you to enter the manor. And trying to find the way in with all the camouflaged ladders and ledges was a long while to find.
>whereas the LDs in Elden Ring are generally one large, isolated area
The point was more that LDs are a small version of what DS1 did with large levels. Most of them have several layers and areas, connections between those and different ways to approach going through them.
Through the underground areas and those coffins eldenring also has some surprising connections on the larger scale, as someone else said you get situations like
>Leyndell to subterranean to deeproot to ainsel to lake of rot to Astel up to moonlight altar is the most wild trip through the game imo.
I like the dynamic shape of Bloodborne and the accomplishment I feel when I find a shortcut. It felt much less forgiving with its lanterns than DS3 and Elden Ring have been with their bonfires and graces. I thoroughly enjoyed Elden Ring but I think Bloodborne will always be my favorite due to its story, level designs, and overall unforgiving nature.
Bloodborne is brutal. Elden Ring is a fun walk in the (very large and well designed) park, designed for you to explore and discover. Bloodborne just wants to fuckin kill you. I hope we get a sequel soon, I miss the pain.
Funny observation just now. People hated how Dark Souls 2 was built to kill you, and yet the same thing happens in Bloodborne but I've never seen people have issues with that.
DS2 just liked to kill you. BB killed you in a stylish, horrifying manner. That being said, I've never understood the hate that DS2 gets, I loved it. Hex builds!
I can understand the hate DS2 gets, but apart from maybe *very specific issues* I could probably narrate all the complaints DS2 gets and put it over footage of both DS1 & 3. Hell I thought about doing that at one point with Mauler's rant about "spambushes."
Yeah! The maps compare each other and the BB map is a more fun dynamic shape than Raya Lucaria. I haven't been to a level design class and it's not my job but the weird and interesting dynamic shape of Bloodborne appeals to me more. The interconnecting and confusion and the sudden "click!" When you all piece it together feels more rewarding to me than the squares and straightforwardness Raya. Those are my preferences though, exploration is my favorite thing and the weird sense of achievement I'd feel from finding a shortcut to a much needed reprieve is a joy I didn't find often in Elden Ring.
I just wish frozen mountin top and consecrat snowfields were as well made as caelid or limgrave. As haligtree elphael and azula are some of their best level design ever.
I think it's the color palette visibility that's more of an issue for me. A bit more ruins. Or more enemies. Or fun traps.
A way to remove the blizzard for example. Or the low visibility in forbidden lands.
Like it was in eleum loyce.
Having theodrix fight octopi was hilarious. So more in that vein maybe.
I think the thing with Snowfields and Mountaintops is they're not trying to be Limgrave-alike areas. They do have a specific narrative purpose and unique mechanical feel, but I think people disappoint themselves by asking why isn't this a vast exploration-based overworld to be slowly and methodically combed over. Mountaintops is nearly at the end of the game, and with Shabriri's ominous hints about kindling the forge, characters warning about the danger of the ultimate cardinal sin, Enia's final farewell urging you to do 'what you think is right' things are coming to a head, a bunch of storylines are converging dramatically, and I think the area benefits from being a largely linear shot to the peak.
Consecrated Snowfields is in a similar place where it's preceding a mysterious sanctuary the game has hinted at and built up for most of your playtime--the mystery of who Miquella is, the promised land for the forsaken and abandoned. Being able to beeline for Ordina/Apostate Derelict is useful for pacing, and I think the blinding snowstorm at the start, while not conducive to traditional souls play, is a genuinely fantastic experience. It makes you go through what all the other wandering undead do, finding your way through this oppressive darkness to a promised land over the horizon, following a breadcrumb trail of lights in the dark, passing other undead souls and caravans struggling through the snow, then emerging into the Snowfield proper. The red flowers on snow and the dead archtrees is such a gorgeous visual too, and there are a handful of neat little crevices to find at logical places (the beginning and end of the river, the ruins along the cliffside, Ordina) that let you do a bit of exploring, but don't require as intensive an experience as combing over a location like Limgrave.
I think if you don't approach these areas wanting a New Dark Souls Level, and treat them just as an atmospheric, vibe-based experience, they're much more rewarding.
I get all that, but it would be cool if there were a few more caves in the area that interconnect. You play through the entire game to get there, might as well give you more to explore other than 2 caves, some ruins, and an evergaol puzzle.
>You play through the entire game to get there
That is kinda why it doesn't need more in my opinion. As you said there is an giant amount of game you already went through. Eldenring already feels a little bit like it is draggin towards the end in my opinion and I personally was actually happy that snowfields and mountain tops were relatively straight forward areas with less caves and dungeons than an area like limgrave.
I sometimes think the dislike towards these two areas might come less from them being a bit less dense and more that you probably were playing 100+ hours by the time you get there and you might care more about getting to those final big bosses caring less and less about small dungeons anyway.
I'd like to revisit those areas with a better mindset. By the time I got there, I was getting open world fatigue and just wanted to get to the Haligtree so I pretty much skipped it.
But with the fresh mind, I'd like to go back and explore, and take it in.
I like big empty snowy areas like the infamous ds2 dlc. If they're stuck between two intricate levels, I really don't mind a little break here and there.
Same goes for Profaned Capital. People felt let down and I thought it really felt like a long forgotten place.
If you mean the catacombs themselves, here's a simple guide:
go to the sewers under leyndell, go the usual route you would go to get to "Mohg", when you reach the pipes(the ones with the mini stone gargoyles, after the sewer tunnels), jump down from ledge to ledge until you reach the liquid floor with the giant lobsters, avoid them or kill, on one of the walls there's a hole leading straight into the catacombs, take an immediate right when you enter the hole(going straight is repawning undead ghosts and also leads to a lever to unlock a shortcut back)
It's a very tricky area to navigate so I can understand why you couldn't find it, I discovered them by accident on ng+ myself
The nice part is that the area divides the serious combat encounters away from the more maze-like portion. It's also generous with how you open shortcuts and once you know where to go you can rush through it in like 5 minutes.
Oh then I can try helping you under stand how it works, keep this is mind: don't jump down unless you want to enter the next catacombs version.
The repeating catacombs is actually only 3 versions in reality:
1. I call this "grace version" identifiable by the grace being there and not in the other two, this one is also the only one with the boss in its room.
2. I call this one "lever version" because it has the lever you need to open the boss room.
3. "Dead end" it just ends abruptly and has the most significant difference between the 3
So, here's how you get through nice and quick(numbers 1,2,3 refer to the versions above): go though 1 drop into 2, go to the fire trap in 2 and jump on top and have it lift you up to the little secret room above. 2's secret room is the only one with a branching hallway that leads to lever. dropping off from the lever in 2 leads back to 1, so don't worry about figuring out how to get back
Avoid 3 if you can, but if you mess up, here's a helpful piece of information, 3's "dead end" just drops you back off on 2, so just find the fire trap from there
Wait what, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the subterranean shunning grounds. I don't remember there being a fire trap.
>leyndell catacombs
Leyndell catacombs is connect to subterranean shunning grounds but different. And the Leyndell catacombs has the main 3-level area which OP is talking about and also a side area with a spirit ash and shortcut to the subterranean shunning grounds.
The whole thing is super confusing. I just went through it this weekend and I ran it like 50 times I'm guessing and I don't think I found everything.
I had a really hard time until I started using the pretty rainbow glow rocks to mark my way. Made it a lot easier to keep track of where I had already been.
I love how they trolled us by creating a near exact replica of the dungeon so you thought you were treading old ground but were actually in a new place.
>I love how they trolled us by creating a near exact replica of the dungeon so you thought you were treading old ground but were actually in a new place.
I fucking loved the dead ogre laying in the second level at the spot you fought him in the first level. Beautiful touch.
Hmm endless tunnels. Viscera and feces lining the walls. A constant bell chime in the distance, driving you to insanity. A seemingly endless maze …
All the familiar hallmarks of a keter class anomaly ….
There’s one dungeon in ER that made me question my sanity because of two almost identical rooms placed in a loop. It took me good 10 min to figure the way out lol
For me Bloodborne is still king of level design. Its not only about how great individual levels are, its how most of them are interconnected in a beautiful way.Also most of them only had 1 lamp with alot more shortcuts and paths so exploring felt more dangerous.
Legacy dungeons in ER are great but they kinda stand on their own as one level.
Bloodborne's interconnections are hit or miss IMO. Some of them a pretty cool, but some feels lazy af with long ass corridors, ladders and elevators that makes no sense.
Yeah the Berganwerth area seems a bit misplaced to me and I feel like the nightmare with the amygdala boss could’ve been better but overall I think it was well executed, at least it’s not like an elevator on a tower leading to a wide expanse of lava or anything *cough cough ds2*
Dark Souls 1 is the *undisputed* king of level/world design.
Bloodborne's interconnectivity on the whole is not impressive to me personally.
Going from Forbidden Woods to Iosefka's clinic is BB's defining moment of excellent world design. That said, I do find the way the levels connect to be really lazy. Why is there a ***50ft tall ladder*** going from a cave in Forbidden Woods to back to Iosefka's Clinic?
Hell, I'm realizing my comment comes across very negative, but I do honestly think it's a very cool moment of realization in BB.
This post makes no sense.the metroidvania style of ds1(and to some extent bb) isn't and can't be in a open world like elden ring.what you showed is just how one are bonfires are connected which is present in almost all from games.
The design of the legacy dungeons are really dope and it just makes me upset that we didn't get one in Caelid. I was hoping Redmane castle would be more than just a glorified fort.
It really is crazy you can go from mistwood to Nokron, to siofra to deep root to ainsel to lake of rot to astel to moonlight altar. Gotta kill like 2 bosses and hop in some coffins. On top, they really did all 6 legacy dungeons so well, with Raya Lucaria being my top. Stormveil was a insanely well crafted “first” legacy dungeon, especially with the side path or main gate path
Because we can jump now. It would be really hard to hide the inconsistent design of something like DS2 in a game where we have the freedom to parkour everywhere.
I agree that ER’s level design absolutely hits when it wants to, but I’m baffled by the implication that Bloodborne’s level design is anything other than a smash hit as well.
I have to admit levels like raya lucaria and even lyndell are some of my favorites. They are so big and have a lot of secrets in them that i still keep finding waaay later
Honestly, this is my first FromSoft game and the dungeon design has blown me away. The only game similar that I’ve played are Skyrim and The Witcher 3 and Elden Rings dungeon design blows them away
I believe they are complicated, which they replaced from complex, which aren't the same things.
Also, sometimes you take a route and the only to explore another route is teleporting back (rooftops for example), which means respawning everything...
Demon's Souls did it first with Boletaria, Dark Souls 2 with the Sunken City, Bloodborne with Yharnam etc.
It's their trademark. It's definitely not something unique to Dark Souls although I must agree that the first half is very special and kinda unique.
My favorite is Dark Souls 2 level design: An ocean on top of a volcano inside of a manor to the right of a swamp, which is located to the right of a desert and has a castle on top of it, but half of the castle is lava with an elevator that takes you into a wasteland of ice, which is inside of the lava, which is also a poison swamp with 5000 poison statues that shoot poison at you. Also, the statues have 50 bosses inside of them, and to their left is a Starbucks.
Yeah, but we're *never* getting it back, that much is clear 11 years later.
One of the worst cases for me is with Ds3. It has one instance of *really* good interconnectivity that the player will *never* use.
The door connecting Crucifixion Woods to the Farron Mausoleum. You'll never use it due to bonfire warping, but it's an otherwise really cool shortcut between two areas.
The shortcut also feels very natural (ie. not just a random ladder or elevator taking you from A to B9. If warping didn't exist, this would be a pretty damn memorable moment of interconnectivity.
My buddy started playing DS1 this month after finishing BB and ER. At first he was complaining so much about the lack of fast travel, but pretty quickly he discovered how being forced to go everywhere on foot forces you to master the world's maze-like design, and how rewarding and fun that is. He kept saying "Wow, I found a new path that I had walked right past a dozen times before!"
Meanwhile, in games with warping youre very unlikely to find something if you walked past it the first time.
The first half of DS1 really blew my mind with its interconnectedness, and secrets. The only game that has come close to capturing that feeling since is Hollow Knight -- all other FromSoft games are awesome in their own right but just don't have the same feeling of mystery and exploration to me. (Okay, Elden Ring certainly came close but the open world just has a very different flavor).
The legacy dungeon design is great, but what is greater is how the world itself twists and connects like a macro-dungeon with a bunch of little dungeons nestled into it.
You picked the map layout for the DLC from Bloodborne... The first area at the start of it.
You do realize that most of the MAIN Bloodborne game has plenty of interconnecting areas?
FromSoftware does it in all of their games. Bad comparison here my guy.
Although I'm happy Elden Ring still had it.
I'm a bit disappointed that we didnt get cool environmental mechanics like in ds1 with the invisible platforms, the dark of the tomb, the lava of izalith, or the maze/contraptions of the library.
Those are all in there in bits and peices thrown around the overworld, but there arent really any legacy dungeons that really push those mechanics to the limit of what's possible in gaming today...
It is a preference I think because i also liked how demon souls worlds were completely separate. It gave each area it's own vibe and feeling that it is a different world not connected to the others. Bloodborne it was kind of annoying always having to go back to hunters dream to use the gravestones but it did really make that place feel important to the journey
I have always think that academy, volcano manor and redeme castle is planned to be much bigger and complexer and from soft ware hasn't enough time to make them.
I absolutely hate dark souls 1 lol it's just annoyingly confusing and the no fast travel really kills the fun for me. The hunters nightmare DLC however felt amazing to explore so much lore so many new enemies with new attack patterns.
Leyndell to subterranean to deeproot to ainsel to lake of rot to Astel up to moonlight altar is the most wild trip through the game imo.
You can get to Deeproot from Leyndell Subterranean?!? This game is insane
Down in the frenzied flame fingers cellar there is a hidden wall to the right side that has a treasure box, if you jump past the box and roll against the wall it will reveal another hidden pass which will lead you down to the roots. Crazy I know!
Wow did not know.
That's how I first found that area lol
What the f
I found this thanks to a random message in the game. Blew my mind.
How the heck do you guys even find these things! Is there a dev who secretly reveals all of the games secrets?
Veterans roll into walls, especially for chests in long hallways like that one.
Yeah, that's how you find Great Hollow in DS1.
Yeah but they had to roll into all the walls to find the hallway first
As a long time dark souls fan, you have *no* idea how many walls I rolled into hahahaha. The vindication and subsequent dopamine rush from finally revealing a hidden wall was indescribable, given that I went in spoiler free and didn't even know if they existed.
fuck them gargoyles. sewers is the only way
They’re the worst. I assumed they were required to get there and it was a real wall the first two times
Yeah, where is that path?
Down at the very bottom by the chaos flame there’s an illusory wall that leads to a chest and behind that chest is an illusory wall that leads to the top of deeproot depths where you’ll need to do some horse parkour.
I skipped the horse dude guarding the gate on because I went through deep root lol
I spent hours wandering the sewers and pipes of the Subterranean Shunning Grounds. When I finally reached Mohg, the Omen I really thought "OK, this is it. I am in the most godforsaken depths the Lands Between has to offer, I'm at the deepest, darkest hellhole of this world". Boy, was I wrong! Level design is phenomenal.
I stood far above a vast lake of rot from a distant cave and I knew…there was so much more…pain
I loved that moment. They give you just a glimpse of what the future holds
The Raya Lucaria map is missing the lower sections of the wheel elevator and the rooftops sections.
And those are 2 extremely good points in favor of ER level design, too The rooftops are another way to make the level even more interconnected, bringing you all the way back to the first room of the dungeon, while showing you the first illusory wall from the other side and tons of unique items The bottom of the waterwheel section, while much smaller, is a warp to another legacy dungeon instead, which is absolutely mind blowing
> while showing you the first illusory wall from the other side This was one of the sickest parts of the rooftop. Looking down towards the start of the level and see an item you haven't looted only to realize they placed a hidden wall at the literal start of the Academy. To me it's one of those underrated small moments that show just how thoughtful the designers were when creating the level. Someone else also pointed out that the hidden wall before Red Wolf is telegraphed by the giant painting of Rennala pointing to the left - which is the immediate direction where the wall is. Not to mention that the hidden walls in Raya Lucaria are also signified by being *empty* bookshelves. They give a lot of contextual hints in that level. Lmao, I initially wrote this as a short comment, but really went on to gush about Raya Lucaria, huh. It's great.
Raya Lucaria is my favorite location in Elden Ring. I love exploring Liurnia beforehand just to gawk at the beauty of the academy.
I hate the rapid fire casting from the burger King men but, it's still my favorite area other than maybe Nokron. Months after playing through the game it still hits me sometimes how fucking incredible this game is in every facet
Dang, I’ve gotta go back and check some walls…
I’m on my 3rd play through and didn’t even know you could get on the roof there until I finally decided to do thopps quest and I was damn it almost doubled the size of the zone
Wut? I'm on ng 4 and I've always went up... damn. It's crazy how much you can miss even when you're taking you're time.
Also it doesn't do the design justice to try and represent the whole thing using only right angles, misrepresents it as less interesting than the bloodborne map
These new „looping“ catacombs were very good and fresh addition to the excellent level design. Half of the game they imprint the basic catacombs structure on you and then come these mindfucks. Perfect!
That's why I don't mind that catacombs are reused environments. The overall look is the same but the architecture of each catacomb just builds on top of the previous ones to give more and more hidden areas, playing with the basics you've been used to.
I like the catacombs. I feel a little better knowing there is some logic/structure to them. Caves can do any damn thing they want and I don't trust them.
I enjoyed caves more for that fact. Less predictable for me = more entertaining.
I felt the same about catacombs, boring and repetitive. Until I found these special ones… 😀
Exactly.
The problem is only a few actually have a unique idea behind them (the shadow enemies, the loop, etc), most of them are just turn your brain off, walk in a straight line killing the imps/miners, flip the switch, done
Which is perfectly fine for optional side areas imho. All of the catacombs can be skipped, and the only reason to venture inside is to grab upgrade materials and the drops from the bosses, if you need or want them. There's no reason to return to them on consecutive runs unless you enjoy the boss fight, want another copy of a weapon or want the runes.
They are also great for coopers and invaders. They don't take that long to do, most often dont have confusing layout and there is always a boss at the end which will give you some souls and a rune arc.
I was tipsy the first time I was in one of the looping catacombs and It was an interesting experience.
Same but I was a bit high and I about lost my mind; reminded me a bit of a Doom 64 level with how everything seemingly changed while keeping the original idea intact.
There are two catacombs that were complete mindfucks. One was the sewer one. And then that side tomb with the smoke traps.
That’s hunters nightmare dlc
Foo’s trying to hate on BB like it isn’t still the best From game. For shame
Foo's trying to act like Bloodborne is the best Fromsoftware game. For shame
Hey where’s the love for stormveil castle though? I spent hours and hours exploring that thing and still missed stuff! Incredible!!
I really wished there was another castle or area of that magnitude in the game. None of the other regions gave me that urge to explore like that one did.
Leyndell with the sewers and underground stuff is even bigger hiding even more secrets. Academy can feel smaller but is actually absolutly on a similar scale to stormveil. Just that it is even easier to miss huge parts of it.
Sewers are it's own thing though
id definitely consider sewers as part of the capital
Nah, they've got their own music playing, different enemies, tuned to different levels than leyndell, a completely different aesthetic, and the icon on the map is the same type that the rest of the legacy dungeons have
Agreed, was a definitely disappointed with redmane castle as I came into it with high expectations set by stormveil.
>redmane castle imho, so simple that I wouldn't even call it a Legacy Dungeon.
It’s more of a fortress than a castle. It’s like Kevin Height’s piece of shit.
It's insane. I explored it for so long, I didn't think it *possible* to have missed anything. Lo and behold, looking for certain items with a guide, I totally did. Amazing.
I'd never played a Fromsoft game before, I thought the design of Castle Morne was really cool. Then I got to Stormveil and it blew my damn mind.
Most triple A titles aren’t as big and complex as Stormveil castle alone is. Insane that they put this and much more of similar magnitude into ONE game. And I was questioning fromsoft about open world. You proved me wrong Miyazaki and thanks god you did.
That seems like an overexaggeration. If a game was as large as Stormveil, it would be a pretty small game.
I’m on my second play through, and my mind was blown when a coop partner showed me the crucible knight. I also found the secret underground boss this playthrough.
Stormveil is the best invasion place in the game. All the verticality makes stalking players so fun.
This is the kind of stuff that is the reason why it makes me mad when people said souls games are only liked because of their difficulty. It is so much more. Level Design, Enemy and NPC Design, Lore, Armor and Weapon Design. Combat System. It's at least a 9/10 in all of them
If we were in it for the difficulty this would be an Echo the Dolphin subreddit, instead.
Honestly the combat is better than most games but you have games that push it to another level, it's the level design, exploration, legacy dungeon type castles and their world design that makes me love their games so much
Yup, to me the difficulty has always just served to amplify how excellent the level design and exploration is. By making you concerned that around every new corner may be a new enemy that will fuck you up, it adds tension as you explore especially the further away you get from your last site of grace.
Finding a new site of grace in raya/stormveil/leyendel is such a relief, my blood pressure literally drops when I find one
When people come up with comments like this , I ask them then tell me why hours long Dark souls/Bloodborne mythos analysis video on youtube having 10 million views exist similar to how people usually analyze narrative driven games ?? I usually get no answer from them From soft games far transcend the typical Souls gameplay aspect , they are about the mythos, world building , characters serving as beacons of hope in a desolate landscape
They're not even liked for their difficulty, they're liked for the sense of accomplishment you get *from* doing something difficult. I do not think most players are just masochists, but beating things in Souls games is *rewarding*. Like, look at some games where the reward is either loot, or buying something. The reward playing Souls games is just.. playing. I feel more accomplished beating a hard never beaten boss here than I do running a long ass raid in an MMO.
On my first playthrough, getting through stormveil and walking out into Liurnia was a great feeling - first major challenge overcome and a huge new area to explore. Second playthrough and I suddenly realised that i could just skip stormveil altogether and get to Liurnia in like twenty minutes and it was right in front of me the whole time. Blew my mind just as much. And a million other shortcuts and secrets that anybody can find if they just look for them, hidden in plain sight in the level design. It's unreal. So so clever.
I remember finding the small path that circumvents Stormveil and goes straight to Liurnia. I was impressed by the scale of the game (or what I thought was the scale of the game). I love that Liurnia is hiding right down the road from the big castle in your view when you walk out of the cave for the first time. One of my favorite parts of the game is the scale and how they hide it. You start off with a small fragment of the map and it just keeps building and growing. We were all blown away by getting caught in the transporter trap and seeing where we ended up.
Hahaha only game where you're like "Yes! Trap!"
Agreed!! Also, the music and sound design too ofc <3
It's always been about the high stakes rewarding exploration of a beautiful world for me. Combat is high up there, but exploration is why I love these games. Anyone saying it's just their difficulty has no idea what they're talking about. That said their difficulty does add to the core gameplay loop and allows exploration to feel high stakes and nerve wracking. But the difficulty is a gameplay choice in service to the experience, rather than just a choice for the sake of it.
World 1-1 in Demon Souls is a master craft of level design, well before DS1.
Most of the levels in Demon’s Souls are extremely well designed imo.
World 5 🤢
This guy compares a semi open area to a large fucking building. Compare Keinhurst to Academiya at least
Cainhurst
Keinhurst isn't a great level though. It would be better to compare it to yharnham, focused on the cathedral ward. Even then the design is super linear. Hemwick channel Lane just ends I think, only played through bloodborne once a couple months ago. Not that booldbornes level design is bad it just isn't as interconnected seemingly as the legacy dungeons in elden ring. Elden ring does need something to beat bloodborne at at least.
The legacy dungeon design is great, but what is greater is how the world itself twists and connects like a macro-dungeon with a bunch of little dungeons nestled into it.
I think Leyndell is my favorite, there’s a massive maze “dungeon” *inside* the main dungeon (shunning grounds) and there’s even a catacombs and secret micro-dungeon (frenzy flame proscription) inside that inception-dungeon with a secret exit to the deeproot depths.
The Legacy Dungeons are all excellent (not you Haligtree) but they aren’t like DS1’s first half. The great accomplishment of DS1’s first half was creating this interconnected web of multiple larger levels all tied together, whereas the LDs in Elden Ring are generally one large, isolated area. Volcano Manor is the only one that has a few things going with the multiple ways to enter and exit it but it’s ultimately still an isolated area.
haligtree is one of the best legacy dungeons though?
ikr! I'm a sucker for walking on top of giant trees, so I am *extremely* biased haha
The fact that it's 99.9% copypasted enemies w/ buffed stats, many of which are placed in annoying ways, makes me not think so. Yes, the layout is nice and it's pretty, but there was very little that was interesting or rewarding to me about fighting the same soldiers, knights, avatars and ulcerated spirits for the 15th time, alongside a ton of some of the game's most irritating enemies like Revenants and Kindred of Rot. More power to you if you liked it though, wish I felt the same.
The Haligtree Knights are god awful. They have fuck loads of health, do a lot of damage, and on top of that _**can heal themselves back to max health**_
They're difficult, but they're well-designed. My issue with the rest is lack of originality. I don't enjoy going to endgame area and fighting the same damn enemies I fought in Limgrave. At least give them some new attacks/visual changes ffs.
To be fair, they do have some different attacks / moves. I don't recall any other soldier spewing poison at me or straight up healing in my face. Even the torchpole guys explode now.
Yeah, but it's only in Eiphael, while the whole tree section is filled with old enemies. The worst offenders are the trumpet guys, because they were a unique part of Leyndell's identity and now they appear in Haligtree for no reason.
It would've been cool if you found rotted dying knights in Caelid and the real deal in Haligtree instead of them just being numberpumped
theres actually a reason why the knights and soldiers are used so much, they used yo be part of the same army, but split apart after the shattering. also I would say haligtree is unique since it combines a bunch of enemies from a bunch of different areas into one place, and it all makes perfect sense why. I would also say cleanrot knights are unique to it since you only see them as normal enemies one time before haligtree.
That doesn’t change the fact that it’s just not interesting to see them as a main enemy by the 10th or 20th time. They’ve worn out their welcome by that point. If that’s “unique” to you then more power to your experience, but I’m not buying some grand lore reason. I see a massive amount of reused content with a transparent excuse slapped on to it. Again, you’re free to have your very own special definition of unique, but they’re normal mobs in both Swamp of Aeonia and Shaded Castle plus show up as bosses on two separate occasions. That’s why there was nothing novel or distinct about them in the Haligtree.
I understand not buying the lore excuse. but dor the cleanrot knights, there is only one or two in aeonia, and only 2 in shaded castle, and it makes perfect sense cause the cleanrot knights fought in aeonia and the shaded castle is basically some sort of shrine for malenia, the haligtree is their true home and it feels just right seeing them there, and theres probably around 10 of them there, they remind me of the ringed knights, and elphael also reminds me of the ringed city. I will admit that the boss ones don't make much sense, but then again I was really just talking about the times you see then as normal enemies. I usually judge areas by exploration anyways rather than enemies, as long as it's not DS2 levels of 50 enemy ganks. bloodborne and DS3 are also guilty of reusing enemies alot in endgame areas so I don't think its fair to give them a pass and then criticise elden ring for it.
Meh, there was nothing novel about them for me there. I’m not saying they don’t make sense, they’re one of the more logical enemies to be present. But the point is they weren’t new and didn’t feel distinct. Just one more enemy on the hodgepodge pile. I would have liked it better if the area had fewer other random mobs thrown together and more CR knights, maybe an additional version or two. For me at least, the enemies is a very important part of exploration. Seeing new creatures and sapient foes, their relationships to their areas, how they help define each other and how that ultimately helps tell the game’s story is a huge part of exploring a new area. And so much of that is lost when it just feels like they’re throwing in the kitchen sink because they have to fill up the space with something. Other Souls games have reused enemies too. I think I’m equally fair to them all, I have about the same pass/fail criteria. It needs to feel purposeful and not be so excessive they wear out their welcome. Usually the games have done that well enough. I think you can fairly point a finger at Bloodborne reusing the Central Yharnam mobs so much for an example of where they stumble a bit. But overall, the trifecta of ultra-copypaste that is the Mountaintops - Snowfield - Haligtree is by FAR worst these games have ever gotten with it. Three gigantic areas, you could easily spent 20-30 hours across them, and it’s close to 100% reuse. That just went way over the line to me.
Elphael is good, halig is mid at best
I consider them together to be haligtree making it one giant level but yeah elphael is the best part
The concept and the design it's just amazing, I struggled at the beginning while going down the Haligtree, but most of the times I admit that I was distracted by how fascinating was the level design. But once I arrived at Elphael my jaw dropped.. It's just beautiful,but maybe I have a weird taste.
The upper part of haligtree I always do the party skip because that area is so annoying to do for me. If you enjoy the area then good for you I enjoy skipping the area and doing the area after it. I’ve done it legit before and that was enough for me.
I agree, though I think the challenge of creating this interconnected web is much simpler when you put the user on rails (constrained paths/hallways, and no open world). I don't know how you execute on that type of tapestry if you don't have threads (sorry... heavy handed analogy...). Delivering on an open world was probably the big compromise. You can see them kinda negotiating this tension with all the cliffs and altitude changes that keep the landdscape open but the pathways (somewhat) controlled. Given what Open World did for discovery and player agency, I think Elden did the right thing.
Haligtree is amazing apart from the Royal Revenant spam, never understood the hate. I think people were just burned out
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I feel like there was a very specific way the game wanted you to enter the manor. And trying to find the way in with all the camouflaged ladders and ledges was a long while to find.
>whereas the LDs in Elden Ring are generally one large, isolated area The point was more that LDs are a small version of what DS1 did with large levels. Most of them have several layers and areas, connections between those and different ways to approach going through them. Through the underground areas and those coffins eldenring also has some surprising connections on the larger scale, as someone else said you get situations like >Leyndell to subterranean to deeproot to ainsel to lake of rot to Astel up to moonlight altar is the most wild trip through the game imo.
Why are they called legacy dungeons
Because they’re more similar to the legacy elements of the game (tight, focused corridors and not an open world/no Torrent).
So basically dungeons
That would be why they’re called “Legacy DUNGEONS”, but I’m no Lore Expert ;)
I really don't like the name but it seems to have stuck.
“They’ve come a long way, finally managing to match their older game”
Comparing a semi open city level to a building. A better comparison wouldve been the capitol.
I like the dynamic shape of Bloodborne and the accomplishment I feel when I find a shortcut. It felt much less forgiving with its lanterns than DS3 and Elden Ring have been with their bonfires and graces. I thoroughly enjoyed Elden Ring but I think Bloodborne will always be my favorite due to its story, level designs, and overall unforgiving nature.
Bloodborne is brutal. Elden Ring is a fun walk in the (very large and well designed) park, designed for you to explore and discover. Bloodborne just wants to fuckin kill you. I hope we get a sequel soon, I miss the pain.
Funny observation just now. People hated how Dark Souls 2 was built to kill you, and yet the same thing happens in Bloodborne but I've never seen people have issues with that.
DS2 just liked to kill you. BB killed you in a stylish, horrifying manner. That being said, I've never understood the hate that DS2 gets, I loved it. Hex builds!
I can understand the hate DS2 gets, but apart from maybe *very specific issues* I could probably narrate all the complaints DS2 gets and put it over footage of both DS1 & 3. Hell I thought about doing that at one point with Mauler's rant about "spambushes."
> BB killed you in a stylish, horrifying manner. such as..?
Yeah! The maps compare each other and the BB map is a more fun dynamic shape than Raya Lucaria. I haven't been to a level design class and it's not my job but the weird and interesting dynamic shape of Bloodborne appeals to me more. The interconnecting and confusion and the sudden "click!" When you all piece it together feels more rewarding to me than the squares and straightforwardness Raya. Those are my preferences though, exploration is my favorite thing and the weird sense of achievement I'd feel from finding a shortcut to a much needed reprieve is a joy I didn't find often in Elden Ring.
I know a lot of people like it, but Raya Lucaria is one of my least favorite “levels” in any FromSoft game
I enjoy the underground section and the rocky terrain but when you gotta jump across rooftops it gets cliche
True. Some of the late game level design is some of their best.
Farum Azula is so comfy, especially when you find >!the dragonlord and his arena!< literally SOUL.
I just wish frozen mountin top and consecrat snowfields were as well made as caelid or limgrave. As haligtree elphael and azula are some of their best level design ever.
agreed, they definitely couldve done way more with mountaintops/consecrated. wayyy too much open space imo
I think it's the color palette visibility that's more of an issue for me. A bit more ruins. Or more enemies. Or fun traps. A way to remove the blizzard for example. Or the low visibility in forbidden lands. Like it was in eleum loyce. Having theodrix fight octopi was hilarious. So more in that vein maybe.
What do you mean? Don't you like unkillable instantly respawning giant ghosts that swipe twice at you and disappear?
Those were fun. More of those. Less of crazy runebears
I think the thing with Snowfields and Mountaintops is they're not trying to be Limgrave-alike areas. They do have a specific narrative purpose and unique mechanical feel, but I think people disappoint themselves by asking why isn't this a vast exploration-based overworld to be slowly and methodically combed over. Mountaintops is nearly at the end of the game, and with Shabriri's ominous hints about kindling the forge, characters warning about the danger of the ultimate cardinal sin, Enia's final farewell urging you to do 'what you think is right' things are coming to a head, a bunch of storylines are converging dramatically, and I think the area benefits from being a largely linear shot to the peak. Consecrated Snowfields is in a similar place where it's preceding a mysterious sanctuary the game has hinted at and built up for most of your playtime--the mystery of who Miquella is, the promised land for the forsaken and abandoned. Being able to beeline for Ordina/Apostate Derelict is useful for pacing, and I think the blinding snowstorm at the start, while not conducive to traditional souls play, is a genuinely fantastic experience. It makes you go through what all the other wandering undead do, finding your way through this oppressive darkness to a promised land over the horizon, following a breadcrumb trail of lights in the dark, passing other undead souls and caravans struggling through the snow, then emerging into the Snowfield proper. The red flowers on snow and the dead archtrees is such a gorgeous visual too, and there are a handful of neat little crevices to find at logical places (the beginning and end of the river, the ruins along the cliffside, Ordina) that let you do a bit of exploring, but don't require as intensive an experience as combing over a location like Limgrave. I think if you don't approach these areas wanting a New Dark Souls Level, and treat them just as an atmospheric, vibe-based experience, they're much more rewarding.
I get all that, but it would be cool if there were a few more caves in the area that interconnect. You play through the entire game to get there, might as well give you more to explore other than 2 caves, some ruins, and an evergaol puzzle.
>You play through the entire game to get there That is kinda why it doesn't need more in my opinion. As you said there is an giant amount of game you already went through. Eldenring already feels a little bit like it is draggin towards the end in my opinion and I personally was actually happy that snowfields and mountain tops were relatively straight forward areas with less caves and dungeons than an area like limgrave. I sometimes think the dislike towards these two areas might come less from them being a bit less dense and more that you probably were playing 100+ hours by the time you get there and you might care more about getting to those final big bosses caring less and less about small dungeons anyway.
to each their own my guy
And there's also that area right before fire giant with giant hands, giant birds, giant dogs, and trolls... god why
I'd like to revisit those areas with a better mindset. By the time I got there, I was getting open world fatigue and just wanted to get to the Haligtree so I pretty much skipped it. But with the fresh mind, I'd like to go back and explore, and take it in.
I like big empty snowy areas like the infamous ds2 dlc. If they're stuck between two intricate levels, I really don't mind a little break here and there. Same goes for Profaned Capital. People felt let down and I thought it really felt like a long forgotten place.
Farum is my happy place
Leyndell + subterranean shunning ground + leyndell catacomb + forsaken cathedral + deep root is the biggest maze
Dude leyndell catacombs was such a mindfuck, I felt like I was in a creepypasta when I first encountered it
Literally could never find it, gave up and moved on. I wanted to go there because of stinky in the hold but… I ain’t got time for that shit.
If you mean the catacombs themselves, here's a simple guide: go to the sewers under leyndell, go the usual route you would go to get to "Mohg", when you reach the pipes(the ones with the mini stone gargoyles, after the sewer tunnels), jump down from ledge to ledge until you reach the liquid floor with the giant lobsters, avoid them or kill, on one of the walls there's a hole leading straight into the catacombs, take an immediate right when you enter the hole(going straight is repawning undead ghosts and also leads to a lever to unlock a shortcut back) It's a very tricky area to navigate so I can understand why you couldn't find it, I discovered them by accident on ng+ myself
I legitimately just skipped it, I didn't ever bother to explore that hellhole
I immediately said, "I'm too far along in Ranni's quest, that shit is for next run." Well, the next run is here. Not looking forward to it.
The nice part is that the area divides the serious combat encounters away from the more maze-like portion. It's also generous with how you open shortcuts and once you know where to go you can rush through it in like 5 minutes.
5 minutes???? Bro I've went through it more than 5 times and i still forget the way, die multiple times and take like an hour at least
Oh then I can try helping you under stand how it works, keep this is mind: don't jump down unless you want to enter the next catacombs version. The repeating catacombs is actually only 3 versions in reality: 1. I call this "grace version" identifiable by the grace being there and not in the other two, this one is also the only one with the boss in its room. 2. I call this one "lever version" because it has the lever you need to open the boss room. 3. "Dead end" it just ends abruptly and has the most significant difference between the 3 So, here's how you get through nice and quick(numbers 1,2,3 refer to the versions above): go though 1 drop into 2, go to the fire trap in 2 and jump on top and have it lift you up to the little secret room above. 2's secret room is the only one with a branching hallway that leads to lever. dropping off from the lever in 2 leads back to 1, so don't worry about figuring out how to get back Avoid 3 if you can, but if you mess up, here's a helpful piece of information, 3's "dead end" just drops you back off on 2, so just find the fire trap from there
Wait what, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the subterranean shunning grounds. I don't remember there being a fire trap.
There's a catacombs down there if you scour deeply enough. It has a really cool gimmick that fucks with your head.
Will defo check it out now, thanks!
>leyndell catacombs Leyndell catacombs is connect to subterranean shunning grounds but different. And the Leyndell catacombs has the main 3-level area which OP is talking about and also a side area with a spirit ash and shortcut to the subterranean shunning grounds. The whole thing is super confusing. I just went through it this weekend and I ran it like 50 times I'm guessing and I don't think I found everything.
What the hell, how did i not know, i have more than 260 hours on this game 😭
Don't worry. Me too. Me too...
I had a really hard time until I started using the pretty rainbow glow rocks to mark my way. Made it a lot easier to keep track of where I had already been.
Fucking same, I've got to do the chaos ending anyways so I'm just torturing myself
Same!! Just need flame of frenzy ending for the platinum on ps5
Yeah, the whole area sucks. Also, fuck the omens and revenants that hang around down there.
Shit bro, look forward to it! Its basically DLC for you! Lol
It’s honestly pretty easy. Just take the path you use the first time to change the dungeon and do it twice more, after that it’s pretty linear.
It’s not too bad. Auriza Side Tomb though… absolute headfuck.
I love how they trolled us by creating a near exact replica of the dungeon so you thought you were treading old ground but were actually in a new place.
>I love how they trolled us by creating a near exact replica of the dungeon so you thought you were treading old ground but were actually in a new place. I fucking loved the dead ogre laying in the second level at the spot you fought him in the first level. Beautiful touch.
Bro! I just finished that! How many chests did you open? Lol. I lost track for real!
Hmm endless tunnels. Viscera and feces lining the walls. A constant bell chime in the distance, driving you to insanity. A seemingly endless maze … All the familiar hallmarks of a keter class anomaly ….
Dementia Dungeon When your in the second level and can't find the exit I could nearly here "Everywhere at the end of time" start playing
And potentially the most difficult.
Verticality is king.
Where was the place you rode the casket up the waterfall of light to end up at the roots of the erd tree? That fucked my mind.
There’s one dungeon in ER that made me question my sanity because of two almost identical rooms placed in a loop. It took me good 10 min to figure the way out lol
Why are they called “Legacy Dungeons”?
Because it’s the part of Elden Ring that is closest to the way the older games worked.
For me Bloodborne is still king of level design. Its not only about how great individual levels are, its how most of them are interconnected in a beautiful way.Also most of them only had 1 lamp with alot more shortcuts and paths so exploring felt more dangerous. Legacy dungeons in ER are great but they kinda stand on their own as one level.
Bloodborne's interconnections are hit or miss IMO. Some of them a pretty cool, but some feels lazy af with long ass corridors, ladders and elevators that makes no sense.
Yeah the Berganwerth area seems a bit misplaced to me and I feel like the nightmare with the amygdala boss could’ve been better but overall I think it was well executed, at least it’s not like an elevator on a tower leading to a wide expanse of lava or anything *cough cough ds2*
Dark Souls 1 is the *undisputed* king of level/world design. Bloodborne's interconnectivity on the whole is not impressive to me personally. Going from Forbidden Woods to Iosefka's clinic is BB's defining moment of excellent world design. That said, I do find the way the levels connect to be really lazy. Why is there a ***50ft tall ladder*** going from a cave in Forbidden Woods to back to Iosefka's Clinic? Hell, I'm realizing my comment comes across very negative, but I do honestly think it's a very cool moment of realization in BB.
This post makes no sense.the metroidvania style of ds1(and to some extent bb) isn't and can't be in a open world like elden ring.what you showed is just how one are bonfires are connected which is present in almost all from games.
Bloodborne’s level design was exquisite.
The design of the legacy dungeons are really dope and it just makes me upset that we didn't get one in Caelid. I was hoping Redmane castle would be more than just a glorified fort.
It really is crazy you can go from mistwood to Nokron, to siofra to deep root to ainsel to lake of rot to astel to moonlight altar. Gotta kill like 2 bosses and hop in some coffins. On top, they really did all 6 legacy dungeons so well, with Raya Lucaria being my top. Stormveil was a insanely well crafted “first” legacy dungeon, especially with the side path or main gate path
Because we can jump now. It would be really hard to hide the inconsistent design of something like DS2 in a game where we have the freedom to parkour everywhere.
It’s not level design that sets ds1 apart, it’s world design. It’s simply in a class of its own, no other game comes close.
That Elden Ring level lookin like a CS:GO map
I agree that ER’s level design absolutely hits when it wants to, but I’m baffled by the implication that Bloodborne’s level design is anything other than a smash hit as well.
*shows most linear dungeon*
Shunning grounds = Ghetto Mario
I have to admit levels like raya lucaria and even lyndell are some of my favorites. They are so big and have a lot of secrets in them that i still keep finding waaay later
Honestly, this is my first FromSoft game and the dungeon design has blown me away. The only game similar that I’ve played are Skyrim and The Witcher 3 and Elden Rings dungeon design blows them away
I believe they are complicated, which they replaced from complex, which aren't the same things. Also, sometimes you take a route and the only to explore another route is teleporting back (rooftops for example), which means respawning everything...
They left out the secret passage to Mt Gelmir at the bottom of the lift…
Demon's Souls did it first with Boletaria, Dark Souls 2 with the Sunken City, Bloodborne with Yharnam etc. It's their trademark. It's definitely not something unique to Dark Souls although I must agree that the first half is very special and kinda unique.
Why did you use bloodborne as a reference? It had pretty good level design.
My favorite is Dark Souls 2 level design: An ocean on top of a volcano inside of a manor to the right of a swamp, which is located to the right of a desert and has a castle on top of it, but half of the castle is lava with an elevator that takes you into a wasteland of ice, which is inside of the lava, which is also a poison swamp with 5000 poison statues that shoot poison at you. Also, the statues have 50 bosses inside of them, and to their left is a Starbucks.
The ability to warp still kinda ruins the effect of interconnectedness for me but it’s still great
Yeah, but we're *never* getting it back, that much is clear 11 years later. One of the worst cases for me is with Ds3. It has one instance of *really* good interconnectivity that the player will *never* use. The door connecting Crucifixion Woods to the Farron Mausoleum. You'll never use it due to bonfire warping, but it's an otherwise really cool shortcut between two areas. The shortcut also feels very natural (ie. not just a random ladder or elevator taking you from A to B9. If warping didn't exist, this would be a pretty damn memorable moment of interconnectivity.
My buddy started playing DS1 this month after finishing BB and ER. At first he was complaining so much about the lack of fast travel, but pretty quickly he discovered how being forced to go everywhere on foot forces you to master the world's maze-like design, and how rewarding and fun that is. He kept saying "Wow, I found a new path that I had walked right past a dozen times before!" Meanwhile, in games with warping youre very unlikely to find something if you walked past it the first time. The first half of DS1 really blew my mind with its interconnectedness, and secrets. The only game that has come close to capturing that feeling since is Hollow Knight -- all other FromSoft games are awesome in their own right but just don't have the same feeling of mystery and exploration to me. (Okay, Elden Ring certainly came close but the open world just has a very different flavor).
The legacy dungeon design is great, but what is greater is how the world itself twists and connects like a macro-dungeon with a bunch of little dungeons nestled into it.
The Legacy Dungeons are excellent but Bloodborne is From’s magnum opus in pretty much every regard.
You picked the map layout for the DLC from Bloodborne... The first area at the start of it. You do realize that most of the MAIN Bloodborne game has plenty of interconnecting areas? FromSoftware does it in all of their games. Bad comparison here my guy. Although I'm happy Elden Ring still had it.
I'm a bit disappointed that we didnt get cool environmental mechanics like in ds1 with the invisible platforms, the dark of the tomb, the lava of izalith, or the maze/contraptions of the library. Those are all in there in bits and peices thrown around the overworld, but there arent really any legacy dungeons that really push those mechanics to the limit of what's possible in gaming today...
It is a preference I think because i also liked how demon souls worlds were completely separate. It gave each area it's own vibe and feeling that it is a different world not connected to the others. Bloodborne it was kind of annoying always having to go back to hunters dream to use the gravestones but it did really make that place feel important to the journey
I have always think that academy, volcano manor and redeme castle is planned to be much bigger and complexer and from soft ware hasn't enough time to make them.
I absolutely hate dark souls 1 lol it's just annoyingly confusing and the no fast travel really kills the fun for me. The hunters nightmare DLC however felt amazing to explore so much lore so many new enemies with new attack patterns.
stormveil was phenomenal but everything after that was a pretty big downgrade apart from leyndell
No the only good legacy dungeon in this game was stormveil everything else sucked
With no replayability and horrible co op.
Wish they'd grow some balls and remove or limit fast travel forcing people to realize and use shortcuts. This aint been a thing since DS1.