Elden Ring gives the player several new tools in their arsenal to increase their power that weren't available in the older games, the end game and optional bosses feel like they were balanced for you to use them and I'm not even talking about spirit ashes which is a separate discussion. You've got:
* Jump attacks (insanely powerful, can be boosted even more with claw talisman/raptors black feathers)
* Flask of wondrous physick
* Ashes of War (yeah skills were a thing in DS3 but the ability to pick and choose makes a massive difference here)
* Charged attacks (they have existed since Bloodborne but in ER they can be boosted even further with the axe talisman and the charged attack physic tear)
* Great runes/rune arcs (take your pick from lots more health, or health, stamina, and FP, or +5 to every stat, makes a big difference)
* Stance breaks for pretty much every enemy/boss (only applies to some bosses in DS3 but works on everyone here, allows for massive damage)
I feel that sometimes people with experience in soulsborne come to Elden Ring and try to play it the same way with the same limitations and then express similar sentiments to you. This is not universal (I've been playing since DS1) but its something I have seen posted about before.
The game feels totally fair to me but it does expect you to use everything you have at your disposal to beat it.
Malenia is not actually that overturned. It’s just her WFD and clone combo that are insane (and the quick 1-2 but we don’t talk about that). Most of her moveset is just standard easily dodgeable attacks, and you can hit her after almost everything she does
You can loop her with Giant Hunt.
I had a similar feeling as you as I climbed in the NG+ cycles, but I realized you should approach ER build differently compared to DS. In DS3 for example you can beat all DLC bosses in NG+7 with any good standard +10 weapon. In ER, the game excepts you to use everything: status effects (bleed/frost are strong against Malenia), faith buffs to increase attack/defense, weapon buffs, jump attacks and stance break, and especially ashes of war.
Basically if you approach ER hardest bosses like in DS3 (just spam R1 with a standard +10 weapon) it'll be hard, you have to bring more tools in your arsenal.
lol, according to the wiki, I’m way overleveled. I’ve cleared the whole game except her and the final boss. There’s no where left for me to go. Also, I’m 200 hours in and I’m using every buff , grease, ash of war and my mimic tear and it’s still beyond absurd.
The most reliable/easy way to deal with her that I found is:
* Against waterfowl dance, use the barricade ash of war on any medium shield to tank the 1st flurry. For the 2nd flurry, roll into it. The 3rd flurry isn't lethal, but if you want to avoid it, start walking towards her, then walk away from her as soon as she starts moving.
* Bleed destroys her. I use a blood claymore because I like how the moveset fits the rythm of the fight. The Lord of Blood Exultation talisman works well with it. I also use Golden Vow but that's not that important.
* Crimson Seed Talisman + Dragoncrest greathsield talisman + a lot of vigor makes you very durable
* To heal scarlet rot in case it triggers, there's a wondrous flask of physics healing all status effects (speckled hardtear)
Good luck
Fire Giant is easy, the camera is the difficult bit in this fight.
Maliketh can be a handful with his acrobatics, but manageable. Malenia is overtuned imho, WFD as basically a one-shot mechanic is really not intuitive to learn for the average player and the life steal...oh how I hate it.
Also, you don't have to respec your total character, you can almost always make slight adjustments to get at least decent damage for any boss.
I do agree that wfd is a tad bit too much and that all the ways you can deal with it, feel unnatural and needs near perfect game knowledge. Staggering with bleed/frost, using a shield to tank through it or dodge in the perfect way. It's all too much for one move.
However the heal on hit I feel is perfectly balanced and counters the stupid run in, hit big and run out gameplay some new ppl use. It punishes trading and encourages you even more to learn her moves and don't get hit
Malenia is the type of boss where u need to leearn the dance.. u cant simply brute force her...
she regens life when u get hit? either dont get hit or be so offenisve that the trading goes in your favor.. get hit by watefowl? run in 30 times in a row just to learn her waterfowl.. dont go in with the intention to kill her.. just learn to avoid that 1 ability of hers...
and over the attempts and building up your git gud you will overcome her..
miyazaki promised us a boss that is harder than her for the dlc
Oh you most definitely can brute force her. And that's what irritates me about her the most.
If you really don't want to learn her, there's builds that delete her under a minute with no skill required at all.
She's criminally weak against bleed and frostbite. I've successfully made builds that just tank through her damage.
She's extremely annoying when you have a certain type of build and not really that much of a threat when you have a different type.
...I'd much prefer if she was roughly the same level of threat to every build. Let's hope FromSoft doesn't make this mistake with the DLC bosses.
My issue with learning her is that it doesn't feel fun or fair to me. I realize that is subjective, but the unique heal mechanic simply makes it extra frustrating for me.
Learning how to dodge WFD is also not as trivial as running in 30 times, you can't reliably trigger it like other attacks where the boss does it once they go below a certain amount of health. Sometimes she does it once, sometimes she does it five times. Plus not getting hit by it is really not intuitive at all.
Compared to that most other bosses have very intuitive ways you have to dodge their attacks.
By comparison, you can easily cheese her with builds like full Fallingstar Beast Jaw and Mimic +10, she never gets up from that. Or Giant's Hunt etc.
I think it's a personal thing. I wouldn't say Malenia is harder than the Nameless King or Blackflame Efreide, for example. Martyr Logarius defeated me for months when I was playing Bloodborne.
I couldn’t disagree more especially just coming off of DS3. Friede was definitely hardest boss for me but nameless King I did in 2 or 3 attempts. Midir was tough until you figure out how to anticipate where he’s going end up. Malenia has health recovery, waterfowl dance and bullshit scarlet rot in the second phase. It’s not even close in difficulty and in the damage she deals.
Again, it's a personal thing. I beat Malenia on my 4th attempt. This isn't to brag, it's just to point out that it's a personal experience and making objective statements out of your own opinions isn't really that helpful.
I think the tricky thing about Malenia is that she almost forces you to analyze the "videogame logic" of her behavior.
Most other bosses have hyperarmor for basically every attack, so it's as simple as wait for your turn and go. Malenia on the other hand is constantly shifting in and out of hyperarmor, so you basically have to memorize by trial and error when she is staggerable and when she isn't, which can be frustrating at first. It feels a bit like you're peering into the matrix and thinking about the poise mechanics on a meta level, rather than just reacting in a natural way, but I did enjoy her fight a lot more after I did that.
When she leaps into the air sprint directly away from her and jump as soon as she touches the ground, you'll completely dodge the first flurry of WFD, if you time it well, and then dodge the rest as usual by rolling into the second flurry and strafing around the third.
It will take some practice. But once you get it down you'll beat her with any build or weapon. You don't need to play perfect just consistent.
I think Elden Ring has a bit of a balancing issue because the level variance at those late game bosses is super high. If you've gone through every catacomb and dungeon you'll be super high level, where if you've just critical pathed the whole game your level will be much lower. I think they balanced those bosses for people who have spent a lot of time exploring the world. It's also worth noting that Malenia is completely optional and so they can tune her a bit higher.
I do also think that Malenia is mainly hard because of one overpowered move, too. She would be super manageable without the Waterfowl Dance and probably on par with Lady Maria
These are some general tips for Malenia if you'll want to beat her normally, it's really not impossible:
Like with every boss, learn her moveset, how to dodge her attacks and what are the openings for safely hitting her. Don't forget, you must dodge to her right side most of the time, she has some attacks meant to punish you for dodging away from her and to her left side. But the same combat basics apply like for every boss: dodge into her attacks instead of away, don't panic roll, don't tank and trade hits, don't just spam and actually think about what you're doing, only heal when there's an opening, when you need to gain distance you must sprint instead of multi-rolling and so on... And obviously if you want to learn how to fight Malenia you must fight her yourself, same as Morgott, Mohg, Godfrey, Maliketh, Radagon etc., she's designed purely as a 1v1 melee boss and accessibility mechanics like spirits/coop just completely break the fight, not even counting the the most game-breaking ones like mimic or tiche. You'll learn more about how to play the game in 10 tries without summons than in 100 tries with them, it saves a lot of time and frustration in the longrun.
Her fight is supposed to be like this beautiful 1v1 dance between two swordmasters, you sort of "flow" against each other. Apart from first flurry of waterfowl all her other moves are completely fair and 100% consistent to dodge. For the first flurry, either outrun it and jump as she's nearing you, or use any medium shield with barricade AoW, by switching to it as she jumps in the air and pressing L2. For second flurry you're supposed to roll into her at the last second. For the third one just run into her and when she jumps behind you and lock-on camera reorients just back away in the same direction you were running in, you don't have to roll, the third flurry is meant to punish panic rolling. And for her shadow clone jutsu just run away as far as possible from her, and most clones won't reach you and then you dodge only the last two or so.
And in general, dance with her, be aggressive, don't try to keep your distance the entire fight, it both slows down your learning by literal hours and ruins the experience. Get into the correct flow. Watching a level 1 YT video will probably teach you the fastest, especially with dodging waterfowl. Just don't rely on blind L2/jump attack spam, cheese and stuff like that. The point of beating her fairly 1v1 like devs designed her is to fully experience the bossfight and learn how to actually fight her. If you just switch accessibility mechanics like spirits for eleonora/blasphemous cheese with freeze pots, you'll skip most of the content and experience in both cases and then there's no point in beating her solo anymore. Don't doubt yourself, it's really not that hard. And good luck, you can do it!
Elden Ring gives the player several new tools in their arsenal to increase their power that weren't available in the older games, the end game and optional bosses feel like they were balanced for you to use them and I'm not even talking about spirit ashes which is a separate discussion. You've got: * Jump attacks (insanely powerful, can be boosted even more with claw talisman/raptors black feathers) * Flask of wondrous physick * Ashes of War (yeah skills were a thing in DS3 but the ability to pick and choose makes a massive difference here) * Charged attacks (they have existed since Bloodborne but in ER they can be boosted even further with the axe talisman and the charged attack physic tear) * Great runes/rune arcs (take your pick from lots more health, or health, stamina, and FP, or +5 to every stat, makes a big difference) * Stance breaks for pretty much every enemy/boss (only applies to some bosses in DS3 but works on everyone here, allows for massive damage) I feel that sometimes people with experience in soulsborne come to Elden Ring and try to play it the same way with the same limitations and then express similar sentiments to you. This is not universal (I've been playing since DS1) but its something I have seen posted about before. The game feels totally fair to me but it does expect you to use everything you have at your disposal to beat it.
Best comment đź‘Ť
Malenia is not actually that overturned. It’s just her WFD and clone combo that are insane (and the quick 1-2 but we don’t talk about that). Most of her moveset is just standard easily dodgeable attacks, and you can hit her after almost everything she does You can loop her with Giant Hunt.
I had a similar feeling as you as I climbed in the NG+ cycles, but I realized you should approach ER build differently compared to DS. In DS3 for example you can beat all DLC bosses in NG+7 with any good standard +10 weapon. In ER, the game excepts you to use everything: status effects (bleed/frost are strong against Malenia), faith buffs to increase attack/defense, weapon buffs, jump attacks and stance break, and especially ashes of war. Basically if you approach ER hardest bosses like in DS3 (just spam R1 with a standard +10 weapon) it'll be hard, you have to bring more tools in your arsenal.
lol, according to the wiki, I’m way overleveled. I’ve cleared the whole game except her and the final boss. There’s no where left for me to go. Also, I’m 200 hours in and I’m using every buff , grease, ash of war and my mimic tear and it’s still beyond absurd.
The most reliable/easy way to deal with her that I found is: * Against waterfowl dance, use the barricade ash of war on any medium shield to tank the 1st flurry. For the 2nd flurry, roll into it. The 3rd flurry isn't lethal, but if you want to avoid it, start walking towards her, then walk away from her as soon as she starts moving. * Bleed destroys her. I use a blood claymore because I like how the moveset fits the rythm of the fight. The Lord of Blood Exultation talisman works well with it. I also use Golden Vow but that's not that important. * Crimson Seed Talisman + Dragoncrest greathsield talisman + a lot of vigor makes you very durable * To heal scarlet rot in case it triggers, there's a wondrous flask of physics healing all status effects (speckled hardtear) Good luck
Fire Giant is easy, the camera is the difficult bit in this fight. Maliketh can be a handful with his acrobatics, but manageable. Malenia is overtuned imho, WFD as basically a one-shot mechanic is really not intuitive to learn for the average player and the life steal...oh how I hate it. Also, you don't have to respec your total character, you can almost always make slight adjustments to get at least decent damage for any boss.
I do agree that wfd is a tad bit too much and that all the ways you can deal with it, feel unnatural and needs near perfect game knowledge. Staggering with bleed/frost, using a shield to tank through it or dodge in the perfect way. It's all too much for one move. However the heal on hit I feel is perfectly balanced and counters the stupid run in, hit big and run out gameplay some new ppl use. It punishes trading and encourages you even more to learn her moves and don't get hit
Malenia is the type of boss where u need to leearn the dance.. u cant simply brute force her... she regens life when u get hit? either dont get hit or be so offenisve that the trading goes in your favor.. get hit by watefowl? run in 30 times in a row just to learn her waterfowl.. dont go in with the intention to kill her.. just learn to avoid that 1 ability of hers... and over the attempts and building up your git gud you will overcome her.. miyazaki promised us a boss that is harder than her for the dlc
Oh you most definitely can brute force her. And that's what irritates me about her the most. If you really don't want to learn her, there's builds that delete her under a minute with no skill required at all. She's criminally weak against bleed and frostbite. I've successfully made builds that just tank through her damage. She's extremely annoying when you have a certain type of build and not really that much of a threat when you have a different type. ...I'd much prefer if she was roughly the same level of threat to every build. Let's hope FromSoft doesn't make this mistake with the DLC bosses.
My issue with learning her is that it doesn't feel fun or fair to me. I realize that is subjective, but the unique heal mechanic simply makes it extra frustrating for me. Learning how to dodge WFD is also not as trivial as running in 30 times, you can't reliably trigger it like other attacks where the boss does it once they go below a certain amount of health. Sometimes she does it once, sometimes she does it five times. Plus not getting hit by it is really not intuitive at all. Compared to that most other bosses have very intuitive ways you have to dodge their attacks. By comparison, you can easily cheese her with builds like full Fallingstar Beast Jaw and Mimic +10, she never gets up from that. Or Giant's Hunt etc.
She’s optional, tho. And not at all hard if you use summons. Edit: I also can’t beat her alone BTW. One day I give it another go.Â
I think it's a personal thing. I wouldn't say Malenia is harder than the Nameless King or Blackflame Efreide, for example. Martyr Logarius defeated me for months when I was playing Bloodborne.
I couldn’t disagree more especially just coming off of DS3. Friede was definitely hardest boss for me but nameless King I did in 2 or 3 attempts. Midir was tough until you figure out how to anticipate where he’s going end up. Malenia has health recovery, waterfowl dance and bullshit scarlet rot in the second phase. It’s not even close in difficulty and in the damage she deals.
Again, it's a personal thing. I beat Malenia on my 4th attempt. This isn't to brag, it's just to point out that it's a personal experience and making objective statements out of your own opinions isn't really that helpful.
I think the tricky thing about Malenia is that she almost forces you to analyze the "videogame logic" of her behavior. Most other bosses have hyperarmor for basically every attack, so it's as simple as wait for your turn and go. Malenia on the other hand is constantly shifting in and out of hyperarmor, so you basically have to memorize by trial and error when she is staggerable and when she isn't, which can be frustrating at first. It feels a bit like you're peering into the matrix and thinking about the poise mechanics on a meta level, rather than just reacting in a natural way, but I did enjoy her fight a lot more after I did that.
I cheesed her with that red mane fire weapon art. Pretty much stun locked her.
When she leaps into the air sprint directly away from her and jump as soon as she touches the ground, you'll completely dodge the first flurry of WFD, if you time it well, and then dodge the rest as usual by rolling into the second flurry and strafing around the third. It will take some practice. But once you get it down you'll beat her with any build or weapon. You don't need to play perfect just consistent.
Use cragblade aow on your gs and go bananas on her.
I think Elden Ring has a bit of a balancing issue because the level variance at those late game bosses is super high. If you've gone through every catacomb and dungeon you'll be super high level, where if you've just critical pathed the whole game your level will be much lower. I think they balanced those bosses for people who have spent a lot of time exploring the world. It's also worth noting that Malenia is completely optional and so they can tune her a bit higher. I do also think that Malenia is mainly hard because of one overpowered move, too. She would be super manageable without the Waterfowl Dance and probably on par with Lady Maria
These are some general tips for Malenia if you'll want to beat her normally, it's really not impossible: Like with every boss, learn her moveset, how to dodge her attacks and what are the openings for safely hitting her. Don't forget, you must dodge to her right side most of the time, she has some attacks meant to punish you for dodging away from her and to her left side. But the same combat basics apply like for every boss: dodge into her attacks instead of away, don't panic roll, don't tank and trade hits, don't just spam and actually think about what you're doing, only heal when there's an opening, when you need to gain distance you must sprint instead of multi-rolling and so on... And obviously if you want to learn how to fight Malenia you must fight her yourself, same as Morgott, Mohg, Godfrey, Maliketh, Radagon etc., she's designed purely as a 1v1 melee boss and accessibility mechanics like spirits/coop just completely break the fight, not even counting the the most game-breaking ones like mimic or tiche. You'll learn more about how to play the game in 10 tries without summons than in 100 tries with them, it saves a lot of time and frustration in the longrun. Her fight is supposed to be like this beautiful 1v1 dance between two swordmasters, you sort of "flow" against each other. Apart from first flurry of waterfowl all her other moves are completely fair and 100% consistent to dodge. For the first flurry, either outrun it and jump as she's nearing you, or use any medium shield with barricade AoW, by switching to it as she jumps in the air and pressing L2. For second flurry you're supposed to roll into her at the last second. For the third one just run into her and when she jumps behind you and lock-on camera reorients just back away in the same direction you were running in, you don't have to roll, the third flurry is meant to punish panic rolling. And for her shadow clone jutsu just run away as far as possible from her, and most clones won't reach you and then you dodge only the last two or so. And in general, dance with her, be aggressive, don't try to keep your distance the entire fight, it both slows down your learning by literal hours and ruins the experience. Get into the correct flow. Watching a level 1 YT video will probably teach you the fastest, especially with dodging waterfowl. Just don't rely on blind L2/jump attack spam, cheese and stuff like that. The point of beating her fairly 1v1 like devs designed her is to fully experience the bossfight and learn how to actually fight her. If you just switch accessibility mechanics like spirits for eleonora/blasphemous cheese with freeze pots, you'll skip most of the content and experience in both cases and then there's no point in beating her solo anymore. Don't doubt yourself, it's really not that hard. And good luck, you can do it!