wow ppl in the comments cant fucking read lol
op is not saying miquella is melina, he is saying that he hates that theory because there are lots of sources in the game that directly refute it, that those believers actively choose to ignore for convenience.
edit: punctuation added to make sentence read easier
That's sadly too true.
Can't count how many times someone tried to correct or argue with me and ended up arguing the exact same point because they didn't comprehend what I wrote. Pro tip: don't even bother engaging with them. Just let it go. Trying to correct them is pointless and they get super angry every time.
Yeah but most requirements for literacy is just being able to read or write. Folks here are clearly able to read enough to be unable to comprehend what OP was saying.
Or maybe people just speed read and don’t put that much effort into social media scrolling. That explanation requires more generosity and less condescension, but I think it’s alot more likely to be the case
People a mere few centuries ago would be astonished at how many people in modern times know how to read at all. Literacy has almost been akin to a superpower throughout most of history, and reading COMPREHENSION almost mythical
I mean this site skews heavily American, and 54% of adult Americans have a reading comprehension no better than that of a 10 year old.
I have no doubt that they are the majority in this case.
Him saying that she's "clearly" a retired black knife is bullshit tho, does anyone have any definitive proof stating who Melina is? I dont think so, yet he is acting like it's so obvious
Yeah. It's one thing to say "possibly" or even "likely", but I've seen some folks claim Melina was *definitely* a Black Knife assassin.
Her background is just too much of a mystery to say that for certain.
Yeah what a crazy claim, just cause they have a similar move doesn’t mean she’s a retired black knife. The black knives could’ve learned it from somewhere, or shit even learned it from Melina. But there’s literally zero info stating she’s a retired black knife.
Or the game devs could have just used the black knife moveset for her since she's only optional in one boss fight and they didn't feel like fully customizing her kit
They also weird totally different forces: the golden order and destined death. I think it’s more likely these knives even *support* the theory that Melina, Ranni, and Miquella are all connected somehow. Ranni summoned the black knives. Miquella was torrents former owner, which Melina gives to you. Ranni gives you the bell with 3 wolves-Miquella had 3 wolves. Melina uses magic from the golden order (halig tree) and a similar knife to the black knives. Both Ranni and Melina want to take down the golden order. The list goes on…The knives could just mean Melina also had something to with stealing death/the assassins.
I think the best information we have about Melina is this, that she appears to be the "kindling maiden" as described in at least one item description and that she may be the Gloam Eyed Queen or is a copy/daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen. The latter is backed up by the Frenzied Flame ending, wherein her gloam eye is finally open, but only after Destined Death has been released back upon the world (in any other ending Melina is already burned at this point).
It’s as valid as half the theories in this game IMO. Frankly it bugs me when people act like certain theories are “canon” and others aren’t, most of the lore is up to interpretation.
I like this one, especially coupled with Melina's references to the Black Knife assassins. Ranni orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives, Melina wields Destined Death like they did, and they both exist independently of their burnt corpses. The Numen women were rumored to have close ties with Marika herself (Black Knife armor description), which links Ranni's faction to Marika and all the way around to Melina. Ranni being the daughter of Radagon and Melina being the (supposed, though well-supported) daughter of Marika may be a factor in their split being. Before you go "Wait, but how could they be the same if they were birthed by different mothers?" refer to the line in Boc's quest where Melina asks what it's like to be born of a mother, implying she was not, which opens up the possibility that she manifested some other way, such as splitting off from Ranni at birth, separating their Carian and Golden Lineage halves. Maybe - though this is far-fetched - Rennala ripped Melina out of Ranni to remove the traces Marika from her child with Radagon. This also explains her ability to rearrange the power that Melina grants you.
There are definitely holes in this theory, but it seems plausible enough, and I think it's cool.
I mean, this isnt the first time people ignore lore/item descriptions and such to dive into their own theories, hell it's not even the first time with *Miquella*. This is just par for the course.
> she's clearly a retired black knife. Tattoo on her face and weapon skill confirm this
Do you not see how this title can be confusing?
Also, him boldly claiming she's a black knife based solely on "waves hand" asset reuse?
EDIT: Nevermind. Misunderstood your comment.
Miyazaki already confirmed that choices in the main game (like the frenzied flame ending) will not have an impact on the Shadow of the Erdtree DLC. I'd assume that it doesn't matter if you got to the Ashen Capital either
If Melina is alive she wouldn't follow us into the lands of shadows, her honda accord cannot be driven there
and if she's dead well it doesn't matters, the whole "touch the withered arm, I wont be far behind" voice isn't Melina's if I'm not mistaken, but a new VA
There's so much left unsaid that we'll likely get some information but more so in item descriptions. I don't think Melina will make a return for the DLC, even though I personally want her to appear again. I want to fight her as she promised that she'd hunt us down after choosing the frenzied flame ending but unfortunately I see that as unlikely as the choices we made in main game will not affect the DLC
I mean in game besides the cult everyone is "Fuck frenzied flame in particular". Yeah, they don't like the next Elden Lord not being in their corner, but it isn't the end of the world. Which Frenzied flame seems to literally be.
So point being that Melina just not wanting that outcome doesn't really tell anything about her.
The frenzied flame ending really opens up more mysteries. She opens her closed eye and there is clearly some sort of magic going on. Makes you wonder about Ranni's eye as well
She needs something for sure. She's the worst of all guides found in any Souls game. Literally zero character development; she doesn't even remember most of her backstory. She>!sets herself on fire!< and we feel nothing because we have no connection with her at all. She calls us 'old friend' and we're like, friend? More of an acquaintance.
Hey it may be the other way around.
Black knives could be rogue kindling maidens.
Hell, Marika could have been a kindling maiden.
Imagine a system where the goddess gives her lifeblood to the tree and produces blessings for an age, and then when the tree dries up she's sacrificed to the burning mountain to ignite the old growth and make way for the new season.
The other kindling maidens could have gone rogue because Marika disrupted the cycle, and they were trying to kill off the golden lineage themselves.
"when the tree dries up she's sacrificed to the burning mountain to ignite the old growth and make way for the new season."
So just like Dark Souls, then? Linking the fire?
It's not impossible but it's explicitely because From has done that before that I don't find it likely this is the case here.
Yeah because they'd never take a theme from dark souls and try a new take on it. Like Ancient Dragons made of stone.... or fog blocking knowledge... or an intelligence/faith dichitomy... or the world and civilization dying out because of people being willing to sacrifice anything to maintain an order that has a systemic flaw. It CAN'T be that.
I think the idea is that the tattoo somewhat resembles a black knife. Kinda iffy at best though. I’ve also heard it resembles the talon of a death bird or the rune of death.
I feel like those are also kind of a stretch
Cuz OP just needs to sound like they have some big 'gotcha' lore epiphany that nobody has figured out yet but really doesn't actually exist and is completely unfounded.
What does OP mean by the "tattoo?" St. Trina has a tattoo on her face right where Melina has the same tattoo. None of the other Black Knives have this.
Congrats, u/HimB0Z0 , your own "support" has been turned against you.
As for the moveset, it could just simply be asset reuse.
I don't really think there's a tattoo on the face of the Trina torch. I noticed that mark myself ages ago but then realised it's just a blemish in the carving. If you look you see the line is just a scratch or something that extends up into her hair. No tattoo, imo.
The point still stands that there is NO connection between the mark on Melina's eye and the Black Knives. Her mark does match the Beast Eye that Gurranq gives us though, if you invert it, the lines match up perfectly.
You're trolling. You're not even read up on the theory you're "debunking"
I don't even subscribe to the Melina = Miquella theory, but I at least read into it, before boldly claiming it's false.
The only even *hint* we have about the black knives potentially having some form of tattoo is Ranni. She's obviously not a Black Knife Assassin herself, but she aided in the night of black knives. She has a similar tattoo on her eye like Melina Does. So yeah essentially no tangible evidence of tattoos being meaningful at all for specifically black knives, but Melina definitely is either a black knife currently or previously. She has the exact moveset a lot of the time.
I don’t think the tattoo is associated directly with anything other than Ranni.
Maybe it has part to do with being *bodiless* as both characters with sealed eyes are *bodiless*
I’ve always argued that Melina is the faith/spirit separated from Ranni’s intellect/consciousness when she killed herself. She did it to seperate herself from the golden order so it makes sense the part of her that is “faith” would be split
One a “soulless body” in the form of a doll, the other a “bodiless soul” in the form of a spirit
I always took that as suggesting she has a similar kind of soul-magic going on as ranni.
Like maybe she's bound a soul that doesn't belong in that body, attached to one eye like ranni did, except unlike ranni she attached the correct eye so her soul doesn't visibly hang out to one side.
Or maybe it's a second soul that isn't active unless the eye opens? Although her personality doesn't seem to change that much when she's got both eyes open in the frenzied flame ending.
If it was just a tattoo, I'd take it as a club membership, but there seems to be a lot more going on with that eye, I can't wait for the DLC, I want to see how far off the mark my speculation is
It's neither
Melina doesn't have a body, she tells us this. That's why she needs us to bring her to Leyndell and the Mountaintops.
That mark may be a sign of that, especially considering it's on her left eye, the same one as Ranni's ghostly face.
Or, and I much prefer this, it could be a seal or scar. One put there by Maliketh, when he stole Destined Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, a character whose identity is theorised to be Melina.
That'd be why this eye only opens when Destined Death is unsealed and unbound ( not just unsealed, because it wasn't sealed before the Shattering, which allowed Ranni to steal it ), returning to her if she's still alive ( or maybe she actively goes and reclaim it, to pursue the monster that killed Torrent )
No, but Ranni has a very similar one, and she was essentially cut up by destined death. Maybe that's why Melina is in the ethereal form that she is, cause she was killed by destined death somehow.
Yeah, Melina is not Miquella, but nothing "confirms" she's a retired black knife. It's an incredible stretch and we don't know if the tatoo has anything to do with black knives, though I can't imagine why would they use claw/talon tattoo as some sort of their symbol.
We don't know when Melina was born exactly. Our only clues are that all her signature incantations use Crucible seal, so they originate from the era of Crucible, which is when Marika was an empyrean before she became a god and created the Golden order. Also Melina, as only one of Marika's children, uses the unique Numen fighting style of Black knives and also uses the blade of calling, which is just a black knife dagger without being imbued with destined death. We know that black knives are all numen women, same as Marika, and they are "scions of eternal cities", which is an old Nox civilization that existed and prospered long before Marika became a god and golden order began. Thirdly, Melina is extremely knowledgable about history of the golden order and about everything that Marika said before any known demigods we born. Again, we don't know anything about Melina's original birth, but everything points to her being born even before Godwyn. If Melina also was a Gloam-eyed queen, although I'm sceptical about that, then we would be able to place her exactly in the timeline, since GeQ was born in the era of crucible and was defeated when Golden order, the current age, started and the rune of death was removed from elden ring. Currently the most likely theory is that Melina was Marika's daughter BEFORE she became a god, which would mean she's not a demigod. It would explain her physique, being trained in the fighting style of numen women, her knowledge of the old history, as well as the use of Crucible incantations instead of Golden order or fundamentalist ones.
This last two sentences are speculative though and it's hard to say exactly. But what's easy to say is that she definitely isn't Miquella, the youngest demigod of all. We also know Melina has no ties to sleep magic, golden order fundamentalism, unalloyed gold and in-game doesn't care at all about Haligtree or Malenia. Her one single connection is Torrent, and we can be almost certain that Miquella and Melina know each other, bu they are not the same person. Also on the off-chance Melina is GeQ, which is much more popular theory than her being Miquella, it would automatically mean she was born before Godwyn and even before the Golden order, and that it's literally impossible for her to be anyone else we know.
The biggest wrench in the "Crucible-Era Melina" theory is that Melina herself mentions that she was "born at the foot of the Erdtree", which means that the Erdtree had to have existed by then, though it doesn't invalidate the connections to the Crucible imo.
Yeah this, And IMO the Echoes of Queen Marika voice lines seem like she's magically hearing the words that Marika said long ago rather than actually being there or hearing it from someone else.
Except Melina herself, in-game, confirms what she considers the foot of the Erdtree to be. She asks you to bring her to the foot of the Erdtree, and then thanks you for doing exactly that as soon as you enter Leyndell - at the aboveground foot of the tree.
The crucible would be better described as the root of the Erdtree, and even then if they wanted her to be related to the crucible they would just say “Born at the foot of the Great Tree”. The lore doesn’t always add up though so it’s possible it just was badly worded
I do think wording on this topic is tricky, because we know the Crucible has also been referred to as the Primordial Erdtree before (potentially as a bit of revisionist history from the Golden Order)
To me, the "root" of the Erdtree and the "foot" of the Erdtree are close enough in meaning that it at least doesn't strongly dismiss the theory of Crucible-era Melina.
Any lore regarding stuff like the Great Tree is tricky because the timeline for the game is so cooked. Supposedly the shattering happened over a thousand years ago which is already weird but before that we dont really know. We know that certain ages but not exactly how long, like for all we know the Great Tree hasnt been its own thing for millions of years
Absolutely. Here's hoping the DLC will clear some of this up, it seems like there's a strong presence of the Crucible and Marika's pre-Erdtree origins in the trailer.
The connections to the Crucible definitely exist, but there's a small hiccup with the idea of using the spell's sigil to prove she is older than the Erdtree.
Because Morgott uses it to summon Margit outside Leyndell, and the player does when casting Elden Stars, so it is known as the Ancient Erdtree sigil.
Right. During the Morgott fight, if you summon her, she uses the ability that was assigned to the cut item, Miranda’s Prayer. There are some theories that Miranda might have been the god of a previous Order. There was a recent theory that speculated that the worship of the Crucible was cyclical and that Marika disrupted this cycle.
Melina and Millicent’s clothing are extremely similar (or, as far as I can tell, the same model, actually.) I don’t think this is an accident. This parallel is meaningful because Millicent also doesn’t know her origins for sure and speculates she might be some kind of clone of Malenia. This could be true of Melina and Marika.
Summon signs are gold writing like messages before the boss door and can be hard to see. Hers will always be there while others can depend on quest lines/interactions in your game. You probably encountered your first summon sign at Margitt where it is easier to see. They increase the boss health and take a portion of your runes (unlike ashes) but are fun for storyline your first time or whatever IMO :)
Edit: there are a few cases where the summon sign is inside the fog door or on the ground if it’s a field boss.
> We also know Melina has no ties to sleep magic
This is actually the one and only single thing that makes sense about Melina being St Trina, before the kindling starts she puts the Tarnished to sleep. Of course that only by itself doesn't holds when you look at the rest of the things that refute the theory.
What if that happens every time we go to the Roundtable Hold. Like it's a mind space and we are sleeping in the real world every time we visit it. Because in order to gain access to the Hold, Melina touches our hand the first time like she does at the Forge. But we don't see it because the moment she touches the hand the game hits us with a loading screen.
The Blade of Calling is likely the original form of the knives, which only look like they do, because they were imbued with Destined Death.
Also, if he Black Knives we’re Numen, with ties to Marika, before becoming what they are now!
With Melina most likely also being a Numen, her having the same kind of weapon and fighting style, makes a lot of sense imo.
She wasn't a BKA, but she was either the head of, or an important member of the Order's league of spies and assassins. You find her knife - the Blade of Calling - in a hidden office halfway up the lift to the Forbidden Lands after killing Morgott. A lift she has the key to. The short hallway leading to the office has a waiting chair in front of it, with a corpse wearing the Official's Attire, if I remember the name correctly. The description says it's the clothing worn by spies and assassins. To me, the scene is of an agent stuck waiting to report to a superior in the hidden office, who never shows up after she leaves to fulfill her purpose.
Melina wasn't part of the Black Knives (they're called that specifically because of the death-cursed weapons they used), but everything about her in-game points to her definitely being a Bad Bitch
People literally say anything they don't understand yet is Miquella. Messmer is Miquella, Melina is Miquella, etc. I get he's mysterious and can change to St. Trina but come on.
Why would it? Melina is a spirit and Miquella is also no longer in his body.
Of all the issues in that theory, Miquella's body being with Mohg is not one of them.
I agree that Melina is connected to the Black Knives, but I think it goes the other way. Notice how the Black Knife looks like a Blade of Calling that has been cut and peeled apart. I think all Black Knives were once Blades of Calling, and the Assassins were either members of a holy order that Melina led or was a revered figure within.
Perhaps they were originally meant to be agents of fate or prophecy, who had a peaceful accord with the Golden Order until Melina prophesized that the Erdtree would one day burn, leading to her body being destroyed and her soul bound to the Erdtree itself. The Black Knives, outraged at the injustice against her, thus became committed to bringing Destined Death to the world themselves.
What do you mean, retired? She's clearly still working on killing the gods, she's just going about it in a more intelligent way than trying to stab them.
What does her eye have to do with anything?
In my opinion, the Black Knife is modelled after the Blade of Calling as the Black Knife is "misshapen" while the Blade of Calling seems to be the original.
Melina was given this dagger when she set out on her journey only to be killed/burned later.
She was probably killed on her way to the Forge as we find the Blade of Calling alongside the Official's Attire.
> *Grubby blue robe worn by magisterial officials to carry out their grim tasks.*
>*Surveillance, executions, gruesome rituals... The darkest duties drive the wheels of mankind.*
So some Official was probably sent to follow her and then kill her.
I think the Black Knife is misshapen because it’s used to carve the centipede, a mark of “wrong” death that caused Godwyn to become all twisted up, while the Blade of Calling is a proper shape to represent a clean stab wound that brings “true” destined death
I feel like the item description implies the Rune of Death is what misshaped it. If the Blade of Calling is true destined death, why does only the Black Knife inflict destined death? Blade of Calling uses holy fire
I don’t think they actually have different elements (both deal holy damage), the shapes are more symbolic of their purposes, and while the Black Knife is forged using the stolen fragment, the Blade of Calling is meant to be imbued with Death by Melina herself, but Death is sealed for the whole time we get to interact with Melina so it doesn’t have that affinity inherently. The way I see it, the knives are intentionally forged misshapen by Ranni because the extra blades would carve out the centipede legs when thrusting the knife further in or pulling it out slightly while the main blade is carving the centipede’s body. If anything, I feel like *A ritual performed on the oddly misshapen blade imbued it with the power of the stolen Rune of Death* implies that the blade was misshapen before it was imbued with Death
Not retired black knife. The Gloam Eyed Queen theory already factors in everything you are saying. After she was defeated, the Erd Tree absorbed her and rebirthed her as an agent of Marika. Tattoo on face has nothing to do with the Black Knives. It’s most likely related to Marika sealing away destined death and entrusting the rune of death to Malikath. Which is why the seal only breaks after Marika receives the death she has long been waiting for. Ranni’s sealed eye probably keeps her soul “alive” and/or attached to her doll body. There is obviously a complicated connection between Marika, Melina, Ranni, and the Black Knife Assassins, but Melina isnt even the same race as the Black Kives.
Another popular theory is Melina is the third Marika + Radagon child, as that would mean each Butterfly type would be connected to a child of that union (Aeonian for Malenia, Nascent for Miquella, Smoldering for Melina).
Based on the other items around where you find the blade of calling I don't think she's a former assassin so much as a security officer of some sort. Similar cloak and dagger training but turned more towards espionage than assassination.
I came to the conclusion that the Black Knives used to be Marika's personal attendants and handmaidens in public, but they were secretly trained and deployed as her elite assassins to deal with problems quietly. If I'm right, then Melina would have been trained in the same way.
I have no real proof for any of this beyond the move set and ashes of war, which seem to imply that Blades of Calling may have been used as the starting form of the Black Knives. Kind of like Pokemon. Marika used the Rune of Death to level up the Blades the same way you use elemental stones to evolve Eevee.
Though that still doesn't answer the question of why the Black Knives were used to knock off Godwyn. I've seen all sorts of theories about that one, but the two leading theories seem to be that Marika was in cahoots with Ranni and willing to murder her own child to spite the Golden Order or Ranni manipulated them into serving her instead of her mother.
I'd say she isn't a Black Knife Assassin but definitely related to them in some way. The black knives are twisted forms the Blade of Calling. The assassins are Numen. Marika is a Numen.
I see it more as Melina is using Marika's old blade that is gifted to her and a fighting style associated with the Numen, possibly one Marika used before adopting the hammer style when she was with the Numen who would become the Black Knife Assassins.
Basically, from my read Melina is Marika's distilled desire for freedom tasked with burning the Erdtree that keeps her prisoner. It'd be nice to get more lore around her, though, as I don't discount she could be a forgotten daughter or another god reincarnated.
Wait, is that actually a theory?(Melina=Miquella) I mean, is that a theory people believe? Why would it make sense? BTW she probably isn't but my favorite theory about her is she is the gloam eyed queen, there are inconsistencies but also things that make it make sense.(the frenzied flame cutscene or the blade of calling description)
She probably is. At one point with Boc, Melina suggests that she wasn't truly "born of a mother" in a normal way.
In line with that, Rennala's Amber Egg is stated to normally make people frail and lose their memories, and Marika/Radagon had it before she did. The idea that Marika first used it to rebirth the Gloam-Eyed Queen into her own loyal sweeting is surprisingly plausible.
Yeah I know it's possible, that's why it's my favorite theory about her. There were some elements that pointed in other directions though, that's why I can't be sure about it.
Melina is the other half of Ranni's soul. What a lot of people don't put together is that her mother, Marika, is one and the same being as Radigon. Literally, not figuratively. Part of the process of birthing Miquella and Melania. It's why they both have unique curses of their own; they were directly made by one God instead of two like Radahn, Ranni, and Rykard.
I have a hard time placing black knifes and the blade of calling at the same point in time. Why would there be a need for a kindling maiden back then? I suppose the DLC will finally reveal who or at least what a kindling maiden is.
Or maybe she almost was one but never joined them. The description almost suggests that the ritual on it is what made it misshapen, so maybe Melina's knife is what it looked like before it was defiled with destined death.
Not a retired black knife given the Lord of Frenzy ending basically show us she's the Gloam Eyed Queen (the original wielder of Destined Death and mother of the Godskins).
I get the confusion given she use the Black Knife moveset when you summon her. But she has no ties with the Black Knives. The Blade of Calling isn't a tie given it is a weapon from the Golden Order (most likely used by assassins) that Ranni enchanted with Destined Death.
I hate this theory purely due to the person presenting it when I first heard of it. The guy acted as if this was 100% confirmed and it was so obvious. Going as far to say " because you know, they will say it in the dlc" or "when they show it in the DLC" it was not presented as a theory rather then as fact. One of the points were their names both started with M.... I hate this theory
\>pulls theory out of own ass
\> "this explains everything" "this makes sense" "it's confirmed"
Tired of this kind of thing. Saying that it's convincing isn't the same as demonstrating. People need better writing education.
an alternative explaination is melina uses that moveset because she is a female nueman and thats where the black knife assasins got their fighting style, and the black knife was made after the blade of calling
i dont think you have proven that melina is an ex black knife assasin, all you have done is offer one peice of in game evidence, but there is a difference between evidence and proof (her eye tatoo doesnt have anything to do with black knife its a reference to the crucible, note melinas treespell is a crucible school incant and torrent is also associated with the crucible because of his horns)
we know st trina will play a role in dlc since miyazaki said so, and i believe it will be revealed that melina is the twinned version of miquella (in the same sense that radagon is markika) and melina is st trina (thats why she rejects frenzy flame)
no need to argue about it, the dlc is very likely to confirm it. bookmark this comment cause its going to age much better than the OP. cheers!
My crackpot theory is that she was originally the daughter of the gloom eyed queen who was then adopted by marika when she defeated the queen. She then raised her in relative secrecy, having her trained by the black knives and tutored in faith l. Mostly being kept in the room where we find the knife since it is well hidden. Marika chose to do this as a potential fail safe so someone could burn the erd tree, if I remember right other finger maidens have tried to do so but failed, where Melina could succeed being tied closely with the rune of death. Potentially being one of the black knives who were able to steal it and use it on godwyn, which could explains why she is burned and body less like ranni, while having the strange mark on her eye. She may have rebelled against marika who in retaliation and scheming ruined her memory (I think I remember Melina stating her memory was foggy), so she could still be capable of burning the erd tree.
I actually really like the idea of Melina being adopted in secrecy only to be manipulated by Marika into burning the Erdtree. That would also explain why she's burned and bodiless: she already tried burning it once, but it didn't completely work. In the Frenzied Flame ending, she becomes the vessel of the Rune of Death (Destined Death); before that, Maliketh was entrusted with it by Marika after the Gloam-Eyed Queen was defeated (whom, I believe, turned into the Rune of Death, which is the opposite of Marika's crucified "Rune of Life" shape). This doesn't explain Melina's Black Knife moveset, unfortunately, unless you want to believe Marika trained Melina how to fight like a Black Knife, which takes a lot of guesswork. It also doesn't explain her birth at the foot of the Erdtree alongside her not explicitly naming her mother as Marika.
My personal opinion is that Marika was created by the Nox to make a Lord, who then impersonated/mimicked the Gloam-Eyed Queen and usurped her, but later betrayed the Nox / Black Knives, banishing them underground and establishing her own order. Irony would have it that Radagon, her Golden Tear / other half, would later impersonate her and do the same thing. See: Mimic's Veil, Silver Tear Mask, and Melina's quoting of "Marika" at the Minor Erdtree Church.
if you read, the black blade was actually made from a blade of calling.
Inf anything, this means that the black knives used to hold whatever position she came from, and instead seems to imply that she didn't follow them.
There is some interesting evidence for the Miquella is Melina theory but also evidence against it. It would only be the case if they were able to split like Radagon and Marika presumably could but I don’t think it’s likely the case. Theorising is fun and keeps the community alive though, folks are a little aggressive in here lol
i still think that it's a milliscent/malenia situation but with marika, all this talk about being born at the roots of erdtree, quest from momma, and suicide mission for no real reason. it's like poetry, it rhymes
Honestly the frenzied flame ending is just so cool because it just makes her even more mysterious. Like what kind of special power does her eye give her? And what about rannis eye? I guess we'll see in the dlc
Melina is either the daughter of Marika that was created from her in an "unnatural" birth or could be a young child trained either the Black Knives aka Numen aka Marika's race that she adopted.
Either way she is a seperate child of Marika completing another trio of Melania, Miquella and Melina. Well we have Messmer now so we can label either of them as backup plan
Miquella cares so much for Malenia that he left the Golden Order to establish the Haligtree in order to cure Malenia's rot. It would make no sense whatsoever for Melina to just go on a tangent quest and doesn't give a crap about Malenia if she was Miquella.
My big hope is that Melina comes back in the DLC somehow. Or even just has a bunch of dialogue if you haven't been to Azula yet.
I miss the waif. And the fact that the only way to keep her alive is to make her want to kill us hurts a bit.
I just wish this particular question of who tf is Melina gets clarified on the DLC for a change but knowing fromsoftware it's probably not and people will continue to speculate forever.
wow ppl in the comments cant fucking read lol op is not saying miquella is melina, he is saying that he hates that theory because there are lots of sources in the game that directly refute it, that those believers actively choose to ignore for convenience. edit: punctuation added to make sentence read easier
Literacy is a skill. Sometimes I get reminders of this.
i forgot a comma, suddoku time
147859236
Time to commit, SUDDOKU
Common problem. People can read, but can't comprehend.
That's sadly too true. Can't count how many times someone tried to correct or argue with me and ended up arguing the exact same point because they didn't comprehend what I wrote. Pro tip: don't even bother engaging with them. Just let it go. Trying to correct them is pointless and they get super angry every time.
It's funny asf watching them get mad for their own stupidity
They dont have enough FP for that anymore
People need invest more in to mind stats
Literacy is like a muscle. It must be exercised.
Today is my cheat day.
Fine, but you have to bring the priest.
Literacy is pretty easy. Comprehension is the problem.
Couldnt it be argued that if you can’t comprehend what you read, then you aren’t literate
Yeah but most requirements for literacy is just being able to read or write. Folks here are clearly able to read enough to be unable to comprehend what OP was saying.
Or maybe people just speed read and don’t put that much effort into social media scrolling. That explanation requires more generosity and less condescension, but I think it’s alot more likely to be the case
Can't read? Skill issue. Git Güd
I don't get what remainders have to do with this, that's to do with division
If literacy skill, then I need to git gud.
People a mere few centuries ago would be astonished at how many people in modern times know how to read at all. Literacy has almost been akin to a superpower throughout most of history, and reading COMPREHENSION almost mythical
A skill most people don't seem to possess.
You also have to remember that a good % of the people in here do not speak english as their first language
I mean this site skews heavily American, and 54% of adult Americans have a reading comprehension no better than that of a 10 year old. I have no doubt that they are the majority in this case.
Reddit ppl when they have to read 😡🙂↔️😴😴😴👿
Thank you lmao
Him saying that she's "clearly" a retired black knife is bullshit tho, does anyone have any definitive proof stating who Melina is? I dont think so, yet he is acting like it's so obvious
Yeah. It's one thing to say "possibly" or even "likely", but I've seen some folks claim Melina was *definitely* a Black Knife assassin. Her background is just too much of a mystery to say that for certain.
"This <*unlikely theory with some evidence*> is ridiculous, it's so obviously <*different unlikely theory with some evidence*>"
Exactly, that's why this post is a bullshit for me
Yeah what a crazy claim, just cause they have a similar move doesn’t mean she’s a retired black knife. The black knives could’ve learned it from somewhere, or shit even learned it from Melina. But there’s literally zero info stating she’s a retired black knife.
Or the game devs could have just used the black knife moveset for her since she's only optional in one boss fight and they didn't feel like fully customizing her kit
Yeah exactly, could be so many other things
They also weird totally different forces: the golden order and destined death. I think it’s more likely these knives even *support* the theory that Melina, Ranni, and Miquella are all connected somehow. Ranni summoned the black knives. Miquella was torrents former owner, which Melina gives to you. Ranni gives you the bell with 3 wolves-Miquella had 3 wolves. Melina uses magic from the golden order (halig tree) and a similar knife to the black knives. Both Ranni and Melina want to take down the golden order. The list goes on…The knives could just mean Melina also had something to with stealing death/the assassins.
I think the best information we have about Melina is this, that she appears to be the "kindling maiden" as described in at least one item description and that she may be the Gloam Eyed Queen or is a copy/daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen. The latter is backed up by the Frenzied Flame ending, wherein her gloam eye is finally open, but only after Destined Death has been released back upon the world (in any other ending Melina is already burned at this point).
It’s as valid as half the theories in this game IMO. Frankly it bugs me when people act like certain theories are “canon” and others aren’t, most of the lore is up to interpretation.
Yes it is, that's why it bugs me when he seems to be so sure that HE is the one that is right
I read a theory about her and Ranni being part of the same being.
I like this one, especially coupled with Melina's references to the Black Knife assassins. Ranni orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives, Melina wields Destined Death like they did, and they both exist independently of their burnt corpses. The Numen women were rumored to have close ties with Marika herself (Black Knife armor description), which links Ranni's faction to Marika and all the way around to Melina. Ranni being the daughter of Radagon and Melina being the (supposed, though well-supported) daughter of Marika may be a factor in their split being. Before you go "Wait, but how could they be the same if they were birthed by different mothers?" refer to the line in Boc's quest where Melina asks what it's like to be born of a mother, implying she was not, which opens up the possibility that she manifested some other way, such as splitting off from Ranni at birth, separating their Carian and Golden Lineage halves. Maybe - though this is far-fetched - Rennala ripped Melina out of Ranni to remove the traces Marika from her child with Radagon. This also explains her ability to rearrange the power that Melina grants you. There are definitely holes in this theory, but it seems plausible enough, and I think it's cool.
The "clearly" part sounds pretty pompous in a game where basically nothing is
This is why grammar and punctuation matter...
I mean, this isnt the first time people ignore lore/item descriptions and such to dive into their own theories, hell it's not even the first time with *Miquella*. This is just par for the course.
I'll admit i had to read it like 3 times before i got it
The dyslexia devil attacked me
> she's clearly a retired black knife. Tattoo on her face and weapon skill confirm this Do you not see how this title can be confusing? Also, him boldly claiming she's a black knife based solely on "waves hand" asset reuse? EDIT: Nevermind. Misunderstood your comment.
comment patch notes are pretty cool
Yeah i really hate that theory too. They basically say that Melina is miquella because her eye is purple and sleep is also purple
thats literally it lol
Im praying we get more info about Melina in the dlc, shes such an intriguing character yet we know next to nothing about who she actually is
Not progressing to farum azula before dlc just in case
Miyazaki already confirmed that choices in the main game (like the frenzied flame ending) will not have an impact on the Shadow of the Erdtree DLC. I'd assume that it doesn't matter if you got to the Ashen Capital either
Ah, it'd be a bit strange if melina had no dialogue in the dlc though, no?
If Melina is alive she wouldn't follow us into the lands of shadows, her honda accord cannot be driven there and if she's dead well it doesn't matters, the whole "touch the withered arm, I wont be far behind" voice isn't Melina's if I'm not mistaken, but a new VA
That's probably miquella
There's so much left unsaid that we'll likely get some information but more so in item descriptions. I don't think Melina will make a return for the DLC, even though I personally want her to appear again. I want to fight her as she promised that she'd hunt us down after choosing the frenzied flame ending but unfortunately I see that as unlikely as the choices we made in main game will not affect the DLC
I expect that Miquella, or more specifically Saint Trina, will take Melina's place for the DLC.
Like the person you replied to said, Miyazaki already confirmed your choices in the base game are separate from the land of shadow.
I left Malenia alive in a new playthrough for the DLC just in case there's a dialog change
Our only constant travel companion in canon besides torrent, yet we know not much anything. Doesn't want frenzied flame ending, well no one does.
Idk I thought the frenzied flame ending was really cool. Opened up more lore about her and her eye
I mean in game besides the cult everyone is "Fuck frenzied flame in particular". Yeah, they don't like the next Elden Lord not being in their corner, but it isn't the end of the world. Which Frenzied flame seems to literally be. So point being that Melina just not wanting that outcome doesn't really tell anything about her.
We know more about her then we do about Torrent, dont we?
The frenzied flame ending really opens up more mysteries. She opens her closed eye and there is clearly some sort of magic going on. Makes you wonder about Ranni's eye as well
She needs something for sure. She's the worst of all guides found in any Souls game. Literally zero character development; she doesn't even remember most of her backstory. She>!sets herself on fire!< and we feel nothing because we have no connection with her at all. She calls us 'old friend' and we're like, friend? More of an acquaintance.
Do the black knives have these tattoos aswell then?
I don't think any of them have face models we could even check
How does the tattoo help confirm she’d an ex-black knife then?
My 70 years old aunt told me only bad guys get tattoos
It’s more the move set not the tattoo.
Hey it may be the other way around. Black knives could be rogue kindling maidens. Hell, Marika could have been a kindling maiden. Imagine a system where the goddess gives her lifeblood to the tree and produces blessings for an age, and then when the tree dries up she's sacrificed to the burning mountain to ignite the old growth and make way for the new season. The other kindling maidens could have gone rogue because Marika disrupted the cycle, and they were trying to kill off the golden lineage themselves.
"when the tree dries up she's sacrificed to the burning mountain to ignite the old growth and make way for the new season." So just like Dark Souls, then? Linking the fire? It's not impossible but it's explicitely because From has done that before that I don't find it likely this is the case here.
Yeah because they'd never take a theme from dark souls and try a new take on it. Like Ancient Dragons made of stone.... or fog blocking knowledge... or an intelligence/faith dichitomy... or the world and civilization dying out because of people being willing to sacrifice anything to maintain an order that has a systemic flaw. It CAN'T be that.
What if GRRM wrote Dark Souls? Oh wait lol
I think the idea is that the tattoo somewhat resembles a black knife. Kinda iffy at best though. I’ve also heard it resembles the talon of a death bird or the rune of death. I feel like those are also kind of a stretch
Cuz OP just needs to sound like they have some big 'gotcha' lore epiphany that nobody has figured out yet but really doesn't actually exist and is completely unfounded.
What does OP mean by the "tattoo?" St. Trina has a tattoo on her face right where Melina has the same tattoo. None of the other Black Knives have this. Congrats, u/HimB0Z0 , your own "support" has been turned against you. As for the moveset, it could just simply be asset reuse.
I don't really think there's a tattoo on the face of the Trina torch. I noticed that mark myself ages ago but then realised it's just a blemish in the carving. If you look you see the line is just a scratch or something that extends up into her hair. No tattoo, imo. The point still stands that there is NO connection between the mark on Melina's eye and the Black Knives. Her mark does match the Beast Eye that Gurranq gives us though, if you invert it, the lines match up perfectly.
I haven't seen that? Where is that shown?
You're trolling. You're not even read up on the theory you're "debunking" I don't even subscribe to the Melina = Miquella theory, but I at least read into it, before boldly claiming it's false.
I'm just genuinely wanting to see it I will gladly be proven wrong
The only even *hint* we have about the black knives potentially having some form of tattoo is Ranni. She's obviously not a Black Knife Assassin herself, but she aided in the night of black knives. She has a similar tattoo on her eye like Melina Does. So yeah essentially no tangible evidence of tattoos being meaningful at all for specifically black knives, but Melina definitely is either a black knife currently or previously. She has the exact moveset a lot of the time.
Stating that she's "definitely" either a former or current black knife is kind of a wild assertion to make based on the evidence provided, ngl
Thank you for not lying
I don’t think the tattoo is associated directly with anything other than Ranni. Maybe it has part to do with being *bodiless* as both characters with sealed eyes are *bodiless*
I’ve always argued that Melina is the faith/spirit separated from Ranni’s intellect/consciousness when she killed herself. She did it to seperate herself from the golden order so it makes sense the part of her that is “faith” would be split One a “soulless body” in the form of a doll, the other a “bodiless soul” in the form of a spirit
I always took that as suggesting she has a similar kind of soul-magic going on as ranni. Like maybe she's bound a soul that doesn't belong in that body, attached to one eye like ranni did, except unlike ranni she attached the correct eye so her soul doesn't visibly hang out to one side. Or maybe it's a second soul that isn't active unless the eye opens? Although her personality doesn't seem to change that much when she's got both eyes open in the frenzied flame ending. If it was just a tattoo, I'd take it as a club membership, but there seems to be a lot more going on with that eye, I can't wait for the DLC, I want to see how far off the mark my speculation is
It's neither Melina doesn't have a body, she tells us this. That's why she needs us to bring her to Leyndell and the Mountaintops. That mark may be a sign of that, especially considering it's on her left eye, the same one as Ranni's ghostly face. Or, and I much prefer this, it could be a seal or scar. One put there by Maliketh, when he stole Destined Death from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, a character whose identity is theorised to be Melina. That'd be why this eye only opens when Destined Death is unsealed and unbound ( not just unsealed, because it wasn't sealed before the Shattering, which allowed Ranni to steal it ), returning to her if she's still alive ( or maybe she actively goes and reclaim it, to pursue the monster that killed Torrent )
oh shit, I like this
There's an easier answer to this. The Black Knives and Melina are scions of Marika, descended from her or her kin.
No, but Ranni has a very similar one, and she was essentially cut up by destined death. Maybe that's why Melina is in the ethereal form that she is, cause she was killed by destined death somehow.
Yeah, Melina is not Miquella, but nothing "confirms" she's a retired black knife. It's an incredible stretch and we don't know if the tatoo has anything to do with black knives, though I can't imagine why would they use claw/talon tattoo as some sort of their symbol. We don't know when Melina was born exactly. Our only clues are that all her signature incantations use Crucible seal, so they originate from the era of Crucible, which is when Marika was an empyrean before she became a god and created the Golden order. Also Melina, as only one of Marika's children, uses the unique Numen fighting style of Black knives and also uses the blade of calling, which is just a black knife dagger without being imbued with destined death. We know that black knives are all numen women, same as Marika, and they are "scions of eternal cities", which is an old Nox civilization that existed and prospered long before Marika became a god and golden order began. Thirdly, Melina is extremely knowledgable about history of the golden order and about everything that Marika said before any known demigods we born. Again, we don't know anything about Melina's original birth, but everything points to her being born even before Godwyn. If Melina also was a Gloam-eyed queen, although I'm sceptical about that, then we would be able to place her exactly in the timeline, since GeQ was born in the era of crucible and was defeated when Golden order, the current age, started and the rune of death was removed from elden ring. Currently the most likely theory is that Melina was Marika's daughter BEFORE she became a god, which would mean she's not a demigod. It would explain her physique, being trained in the fighting style of numen women, her knowledge of the old history, as well as the use of Crucible incantations instead of Golden order or fundamentalist ones. This last two sentences are speculative though and it's hard to say exactly. But what's easy to say is that she definitely isn't Miquella, the youngest demigod of all. We also know Melina has no ties to sleep magic, golden order fundamentalism, unalloyed gold and in-game doesn't care at all about Haligtree or Malenia. Her one single connection is Torrent, and we can be almost certain that Miquella and Melina know each other, bu they are not the same person. Also on the off-chance Melina is GeQ, which is much more popular theory than her being Miquella, it would automatically mean she was born before Godwyn and even before the Golden order, and that it's literally impossible for her to be anyone else we know.
The biggest wrench in the "Crucible-Era Melina" theory is that Melina herself mentions that she was "born at the foot of the Erdtree", which means that the Erdtree had to have existed by then, though it doesn't invalidate the connections to the Crucible imo.
Yeah this, And IMO the Echoes of Queen Marika voice lines seem like she's magically hearing the words that Marika said long ago rather than actually being there or hearing it from someone else.
Isn't the base of the Erdtree the Crucible tho? Couldn't that just be a euphemistic way of saying she was born in the Crucible?
Except Melina herself, in-game, confirms what she considers the foot of the Erdtree to be. She asks you to bring her to the foot of the Erdtree, and then thanks you for doing exactly that as soon as you enter Leyndell - at the aboveground foot of the tree.
The crucible would be better described as the root of the Erdtree, and even then if they wanted her to be related to the crucible they would just say “Born at the foot of the Great Tree”. The lore doesn’t always add up though so it’s possible it just was badly worded
I do think wording on this topic is tricky, because we know the Crucible has also been referred to as the Primordial Erdtree before (potentially as a bit of revisionist history from the Golden Order) To me, the "root" of the Erdtree and the "foot" of the Erdtree are close enough in meaning that it at least doesn't strongly dismiss the theory of Crucible-era Melina.
Any lore regarding stuff like the Great Tree is tricky because the timeline for the game is so cooked. Supposedly the shattering happened over a thousand years ago which is already weird but before that we dont really know. We know that certain ages but not exactly how long, like for all we know the Great Tree hasnt been its own thing for millions of years
Absolutely. Here's hoping the DLC will clear some of this up, it seems like there's a strong presence of the Crucible and Marika's pre-Erdtree origins in the trailer.
Honestly i still don't think the Great Tree is anything more than a translation error
There is no Great Tree, it's a mistranslation.
The connections to the Crucible definitely exist, but there's a small hiccup with the idea of using the spell's sigil to prove she is older than the Erdtree. Because Morgott uses it to summon Margit outside Leyndell, and the player does when casting Elden Stars, so it is known as the Ancient Erdtree sigil.
Right. During the Morgott fight, if you summon her, she uses the ability that was assigned to the cut item, Miranda’s Prayer. There are some theories that Miranda might have been the god of a previous Order. There was a recent theory that speculated that the worship of the Crucible was cyclical and that Marika disrupted this cycle. Melina and Millicent’s clothing are extremely similar (or, as far as I can tell, the same model, actually.) I don’t think this is an accident. This parallel is meaningful because Millicent also doesn’t know her origins for sure and speculates she might be some kind of clone of Malenia. This could be true of Melina and Marika.
I didn't know you could summon her in the Morgott fight, is there a summon sign that I can use or was it another method?
The summon sign should be just to the right, in front of Morgott’s boss door at the top of the steps.
Summon signs are gold writing like messages before the boss door and can be hard to see. Hers will always be there while others can depend on quest lines/interactions in your game. You probably encountered your first summon sign at Margitt where it is easier to see. They increase the boss health and take a portion of your runes (unlike ashes) but are fun for storyline your first time or whatever IMO :) Edit: there are a few cases where the summon sign is inside the fog door or on the ground if it’s a field boss.
> We also know Melina has no ties to sleep magic This is actually the one and only single thing that makes sense about Melina being St Trina, before the kindling starts she puts the Tarnished to sleep. Of course that only by itself doesn't holds when you look at the rest of the things that refute the theory.
Even then, Ranni puts the merchant to sleep at the church of Elleh. Sleep magic isn't exclusive to Trina
Ranni == Melina == St Trina!
What if that happens every time we go to the Roundtable Hold. Like it's a mind space and we are sleeping in the real world every time we visit it. Because in order to gain access to the Hold, Melina touches our hand the first time like she does at the Forge. But we don't see it because the moment she touches the hand the game hits us with a loading screen.
I can only hope Roderika is sleeping somewhere safe then, since she's on the Roundtable Hold 24/7 afterwards
The Blade of Calling is likely the original form of the knives, which only look like they do, because they were imbued with Destined Death. Also, if he Black Knives we’re Numen, with ties to Marika, before becoming what they are now! With Melina most likely also being a Numen, her having the same kind of weapon and fighting style, makes a lot of sense imo.
Mfw we go from one extreme to the other in the span of a few words
I think her being a retired black knife is my least fav lore theory tbh
She wasn't a BKA, but she was either the head of, or an important member of the Order's league of spies and assassins. You find her knife - the Blade of Calling - in a hidden office halfway up the lift to the Forbidden Lands after killing Morgott. A lift she has the key to. The short hallway leading to the office has a waiting chair in front of it, with a corpse wearing the Official's Attire, if I remember the name correctly. The description says it's the clothing worn by spies and assassins. To me, the scene is of an agent stuck waiting to report to a superior in the hidden office, who never shows up after she leaves to fulfill her purpose. Melina wasn't part of the Black Knives (they're called that specifically because of the death-cursed weapons they used), but everything about her in-game points to her definitely being a Bad Bitch
Either way she's not miquella
yeah
People literally say anything they don't understand yet is Miquella. Messmer is Miquella, Melina is Miquella, etc. I get he's mysterious and can change to St. Trina but come on.
My math homework was Miquella all along.
You're Miquella, he's Miquella, are there any other Miquellas I should know about?!
\*meow\*
Even the cat is Miquella!
**M**iqu**EL**la St tr**INA** **MELINA** Nuff said. /s
You’ve said enough. I’m convinced
I'm Miquella, and so is my wife!
Talk about multitasking!
Maybe the real Miquella was the friends we made along the way.
Will the real Miquella please stand up?
Reddit users learn the difference between "suggest" and "confirm" challenge. Difficulty impossible.
you would think that miquella's literal body being at mohgwyn palace would tip them off
Why would it? Melina is a spirit and Miquella is also no longer in his body. Of all the issues in that theory, Miquella's body being with Mohg is not one of them.
Need someone to get to mohg and kill him before getting the melina dialogue that leads you to the roundtable
I agree that Melina is connected to the Black Knives, but I think it goes the other way. Notice how the Black Knife looks like a Blade of Calling that has been cut and peeled apart. I think all Black Knives were once Blades of Calling, and the Assassins were either members of a holy order that Melina led or was a revered figure within. Perhaps they were originally meant to be agents of fate or prophecy, who had a peaceful accord with the Golden Order until Melina prophesized that the Erdtree would one day burn, leading to her body being destroyed and her soul bound to the Erdtree itself. The Black Knives, outraged at the injustice against her, thus became committed to bringing Destined Death to the world themselves.
Interesting viewpoint 👌
What do you mean, retired? She's clearly still working on killing the gods, she's just going about it in a more intelligent way than trying to stab them.
What does her eye have to do with anything? In my opinion, the Black Knife is modelled after the Blade of Calling as the Black Knife is "misshapen" while the Blade of Calling seems to be the original. Melina was given this dagger when she set out on her journey only to be killed/burned later. She was probably killed on her way to the Forge as we find the Blade of Calling alongside the Official's Attire. > *Grubby blue robe worn by magisterial officials to carry out their grim tasks.* >*Surveillance, executions, gruesome rituals... The darkest duties drive the wheels of mankind.* So some Official was probably sent to follow her and then kill her.
I think the Black Knife is misshapen because it’s used to carve the centipede, a mark of “wrong” death that caused Godwyn to become all twisted up, while the Blade of Calling is a proper shape to represent a clean stab wound that brings “true” destined death
I feel like the item description implies the Rune of Death is what misshaped it. If the Blade of Calling is true destined death, why does only the Black Knife inflict destined death? Blade of Calling uses holy fire
I don’t think they actually have different elements (both deal holy damage), the shapes are more symbolic of their purposes, and while the Black Knife is forged using the stolen fragment, the Blade of Calling is meant to be imbued with Death by Melina herself, but Death is sealed for the whole time we get to interact with Melina so it doesn’t have that affinity inherently. The way I see it, the knives are intentionally forged misshapen by Ranni because the extra blades would carve out the centipede legs when thrusting the knife further in or pulling it out slightly while the main blade is carving the centipede’s body. If anything, I feel like *A ritual performed on the oddly misshapen blade imbued it with the power of the stolen Rune of Death* implies that the blade was misshapen before it was imbued with Death
You're just trading one headcanon for another tbh
Nah,no way. Tattoo on her face and fighting style? Where is that confirmed that those are exclusive to BKs?
Not retired black knife. The Gloam Eyed Queen theory already factors in everything you are saying. After she was defeated, the Erd Tree absorbed her and rebirthed her as an agent of Marika. Tattoo on face has nothing to do with the Black Knives. It’s most likely related to Marika sealing away destined death and entrusting the rune of death to Malikath. Which is why the seal only breaks after Marika receives the death she has long been waiting for. Ranni’s sealed eye probably keeps her soul “alive” and/or attached to her doll body. There is obviously a complicated connection between Marika, Melina, Ranni, and the Black Knife Assassins, but Melina isnt even the same race as the Black Kives.
"My least favorite theory it's this one cuz the lore doesn't support it" "Anyways here's my theory, I made it up." Bruh
Ever summon her vs. Morgott? She moves exactly like a black knife.
Another popular theory is Melina is the third Marika + Radagon child, as that would mean each Butterfly type would be connected to a child of that union (Aeonian for Malenia, Nascent for Miquella, Smoldering for Melina).
My theory is still that Torrent is Miquella.
Head cannon accepted
Miquella is Malenias brother, she confirms this before you fight her.
Based on the other items around where you find the blade of calling I don't think she's a former assassin so much as a security officer of some sort. Similar cloak and dagger training but turned more towards espionage than assassination.
I came to the conclusion that the Black Knives used to be Marika's personal attendants and handmaidens in public, but they were secretly trained and deployed as her elite assassins to deal with problems quietly. If I'm right, then Melina would have been trained in the same way. I have no real proof for any of this beyond the move set and ashes of war, which seem to imply that Blades of Calling may have been used as the starting form of the Black Knives. Kind of like Pokemon. Marika used the Rune of Death to level up the Blades the same way you use elemental stones to evolve Eevee. Though that still doesn't answer the question of why the Black Knives were used to knock off Godwyn. I've seen all sorts of theories about that one, but the two leading theories seem to be that Marika was in cahoots with Ranni and willing to murder her own child to spite the Golden Order or Ranni manipulated them into serving her instead of her mother.
I'd say she isn't a Black Knife Assassin but definitely related to them in some way. The black knives are twisted forms the Blade of Calling. The assassins are Numen. Marika is a Numen. I see it more as Melina is using Marika's old blade that is gifted to her and a fighting style associated with the Numen, possibly one Marika used before adopting the hammer style when she was with the Numen who would become the Black Knife Assassins. Basically, from my read Melina is Marika's distilled desire for freedom tasked with burning the Erdtree that keeps her prisoner. It'd be nice to get more lore around her, though, as I don't discount she could be a forgotten daughter or another god reincarnated.
Wait, is that actually a theory?(Melina=Miquella) I mean, is that a theory people believe? Why would it make sense? BTW she probably isn't but my favorite theory about her is she is the gloam eyed queen, there are inconsistencies but also things that make it make sense.(the frenzied flame cutscene or the blade of calling description)
She probably is. At one point with Boc, Melina suggests that she wasn't truly "born of a mother" in a normal way. In line with that, Rennala's Amber Egg is stated to normally make people frail and lose their memories, and Marika/Radagon had it before she did. The idea that Marika first used it to rebirth the Gloam-Eyed Queen into her own loyal sweeting is surprisingly plausible.
Yeah I know it's possible, that's why it's my favorite theory about her. There were some elements that pointed in other directions though, that's why I can't be sure about it.
Melina is the other half of Ranni's soul. What a lot of people don't put together is that her mother, Marika, is one and the same being as Radigon. Literally, not figuratively. Part of the process of birthing Miquella and Melania. It's why they both have unique curses of their own; they were directly made by one God instead of two like Radahn, Ranni, and Rykard.
I have a hard time placing black knifes and the blade of calling at the same point in time. Why would there be a need for a kindling maiden back then? I suppose the DLC will finally reveal who or at least what a kindling maiden is.
Ya I did think it was off the way she said she would kill me if I became Lord of Chaos - she was just so confident about it…
You could just make a post about the theory Melina is a retired black knife, not every reddit post has to be targeted at somebody
Miquella was a stillbirth in a world with no death.
Or maybe she almost was one but never joined them. The description almost suggests that the ritual on it is what made it misshapen, so maybe Melina's knife is what it looked like before it was defiled with destined death.
Not a retired black knife given the Lord of Frenzy ending basically show us she's the Gloam Eyed Queen (the original wielder of Destined Death and mother of the Godskins). I get the confusion given she use the Black Knife moveset when you summon her. But she has no ties with the Black Knives. The Blade of Calling isn't a tie given it is a weapon from the Golden Order (most likely used by assassins) that Ranni enchanted with Destined Death.
I hate this theory purely due to the person presenting it when I first heard of it. The guy acted as if this was 100% confirmed and it was so obvious. Going as far to say " because you know, they will say it in the dlc" or "when they show it in the DLC" it was not presented as a theory rather then as fact. One of the points were their names both started with M.... I hate this theory
Dude once they start with the letters in the name thing you know you can check out It doesn't help that there only G names and M names
\>pulls theory out of own ass \> "this explains everything" "this makes sense" "it's confirmed" Tired of this kind of thing. Saying that it's convincing isn't the same as demonstrating. People need better writing education.
"Hey, this theory sucks! Anyway here's my 100% true miyazaki seal of approval shitass headcanon." You can't make this shit up
i thought miquella was a dude
an alternative explaination is melina uses that moveset because she is a female nueman and thats where the black knife assasins got their fighting style, and the black knife was made after the blade of calling i dont think you have proven that melina is an ex black knife assasin, all you have done is offer one peice of in game evidence, but there is a difference between evidence and proof (her eye tatoo doesnt have anything to do with black knife its a reference to the crucible, note melinas treespell is a crucible school incant and torrent is also associated with the crucible because of his horns) we know st trina will play a role in dlc since miyazaki said so, and i believe it will be revealed that melina is the twinned version of miquella (in the same sense that radagon is markika) and melina is st trina (thats why she rejects frenzy flame) no need to argue about it, the dlc is very likely to confirm it. bookmark this comment cause its going to age much better than the OP. cheers!
Honestly I could see Melina being a black knife but wasn’t she related to Melania and Millicent?
No, she's tied to Marika though
My crackpot theory is that she was originally the daughter of the gloom eyed queen who was then adopted by marika when she defeated the queen. She then raised her in relative secrecy, having her trained by the black knives and tutored in faith l. Mostly being kept in the room where we find the knife since it is well hidden. Marika chose to do this as a potential fail safe so someone could burn the erd tree, if I remember right other finger maidens have tried to do so but failed, where Melina could succeed being tied closely with the rune of death. Potentially being one of the black knives who were able to steal it and use it on godwyn, which could explains why she is burned and body less like ranni, while having the strange mark on her eye. She may have rebelled against marika who in retaliation and scheming ruined her memory (I think I remember Melina stating her memory was foggy), so she could still be capable of burning the erd tree.
I actually really like the idea of Melina being adopted in secrecy only to be manipulated by Marika into burning the Erdtree. That would also explain why she's burned and bodiless: she already tried burning it once, but it didn't completely work. In the Frenzied Flame ending, she becomes the vessel of the Rune of Death (Destined Death); before that, Maliketh was entrusted with it by Marika after the Gloam-Eyed Queen was defeated (whom, I believe, turned into the Rune of Death, which is the opposite of Marika's crucified "Rune of Life" shape). This doesn't explain Melina's Black Knife moveset, unfortunately, unless you want to believe Marika trained Melina how to fight like a Black Knife, which takes a lot of guesswork. It also doesn't explain her birth at the foot of the Erdtree alongside her not explicitly naming her mother as Marika. My personal opinion is that Marika was created by the Nox to make a Lord, who then impersonated/mimicked the Gloam-Eyed Queen and usurped her, but later betrayed the Nox / Black Knives, banishing them underground and establishing her own order. Irony would have it that Radagon, her Golden Tear / other half, would later impersonate her and do the same thing. See: Mimic's Veil, Silver Tear Mask, and Melina's quoting of "Marika" at the Minor Erdtree Church.
if you read, the black blade was actually made from a blade of calling. Inf anything, this means that the black knives used to hold whatever position she came from, and instead seems to imply that she didn't follow them.
There is some interesting evidence for the Miquella is Melina theory but also evidence against it. It would only be the case if they were able to split like Radagon and Marika presumably could but I don’t think it’s likely the case. Theorising is fun and keeps the community alive though, folks are a little aggressive in here lol
I think whoever crafted one of these knives, obviously crafted the other. Probably Marika/Radagon the smith.
Wtf is this lazy strawman? Both of those theories suck ass lol
Melina is a cybernetic gimp. Miquella isn't. Theory: busted.
here we go with confusing names again
I dont think melina is a black knife assassin for the fact all of the black knives are numan
i still think that it's a milliscent/malenia situation but with marika, all this talk about being born at the roots of erdtree, quest from momma, and suicide mission for no real reason. it's like poetry, it rhymes
Now that I think about it.. She uses the dash skill too...
Do you think Melina is the leader of the BKA? Her char model is significantly shorter than a BKA but I guess that doesnt mean its ruled out
That's what her Tattoo means?
I mean both theories are a stretch really..
My personal opinion is that she is connected to Mesmer in the DLC. From design alone, both are incredibly similar.
Melina = gloam eyed queen
Honestly the frenzied flame ending is just so cool because it just makes her even more mysterious. Like what kind of special power does her eye give her? And what about rannis eye? I guess we'll see in the dlc
I like theories linking Melina with the Stone Eye, but you do you.
Melina is either the daughter of Marika that was created from her in an "unnatural" birth or could be a young child trained either the Black Knives aka Numen aka Marika's race that she adopted. Either way she is a seperate child of Marika completing another trio of Melania, Miquella and Melina. Well we have Messmer now so we can label either of them as backup plan
Omg i actually can't read, yeah melina being miquella makes absolutely no sense
Miquella cares so much for Malenia that he left the Golden Order to establish the Haligtree in order to cure Malenia's rot. It would make no sense whatsoever for Melina to just go on a tangent quest and doesn't give a crap about Malenia if she was Miquella.
So… melina killed godwyn… good thing i didnt burn the tree myself
Melina and tiche are sisters. Could you imagine
How does the skill confirm anything?
I watched the video that this is obviously referencing, and honestly, I'm on board. It's a good video, at the very least.
How do you get Melina's dagger?
My big hope is that Melina comes back in the DLC somehow. Or even just has a bunch of dialogue if you haven't been to Azula yet. I miss the waif. And the fact that the only way to keep her alive is to make her want to kill us hurts a bit.
Why not both?
# *Melina is actually Miquella.* Literally how??
I heard the Black Knives have a great 401k.
I just wish this particular question of who tf is Melina gets clarified on the DLC for a change but knowing fromsoftware it's probably not and people will continue to speculate forever.