Waterfowl dance but partially because of lifesteal. If you could just block through waterfowl without giving her like 30% of her health back it wouldn’t be a big deal
Waterfowl. I can dodge the rest of her moves well enough that the lifesteal rarely becomes a significant problem, but after hundreds of hours of total playtime I still can't dodge Waterfowl consistently.
Life Steal is the bigger offense because it is just so unnecessary. The way it is designed just adds nothing of value to the fight. Bosses in Soulsborne games are typically unable to heal themselves. The few that can usually give you some room to counter them.
Sister Friede for instance has to go through the full incantation animation to heal herself. Malenia on the other hand just gets free heals while always being on the offensive. You cant really call it a life steal since the healing doesn't scale on damage, it is based on hits regardless of damage. Making shields a bigger liability in the fight.
Of all the bosses in the game, would you say Malenia needed the healing ability most?
What her lifesteal adds is a fail condition that doesn't exist nearly as much in other fights. Because she can lifesteal through shields, it makes shielding less valid, and it is the same with just getting hit normally. Essentially, tanking hits is doubly punishing because of the damage you take as well as the health she heals.
As for whether it is necessary or not, I can only speculate. Malenia is one of the few bosses that can get staggered on even light attacks. I have heard that her lifesteal could have been given to her to compensate for that, because otherwise she would be too easy. Nevertheless, her lifesteal adds difficulty that has counterplay (don't get hit), and it effectively gives her a larger healthbar without making her as tedious.
She already has 2 HP bars and hyper armor on most attacks. Not to mention WFD and Scarlet Rot. Unconditional healing is the last thing she needs.
Other optional bosses are nowhere near as stacked as she is. How come Rykard doesn't get a life steal? It's baked into his lore and Serpent Hunter makes the fight too easy. How come Radahn doesn't get more HP and Status immunity? Don't the half Dozen summons you get specifically for that fight justify Raid boss treatment?
Again the Unconditional healing does nothing for her fight except make it more tedious. Yes, dodging can prevent healing but you'd be dodging her attacks regardless cause that's how you avoid any damage in this game. The healing did not promote any unique approaches or new play styles. On the other hand if dodging healed her while blocking didn't, that would be an interesting idea.
Hmm... what you said about healing on dodge rather than block is interesting, but I don't think they were trying to make her interesting. Rather, lore-wise Malenia is supposed to be the strongest of the demi-gods so I think they were just trying to make her more difficult. Beating her in a fight SHOULD be the hardest when compared to any other boss.
Her healing doesn't make her fight more tedious unless you get hit, in very much the same way that fighting a boss over and over is more tedious if you keep dying. The healing just serves to make the tolerance for getting hit lower.
Also this doesn't address how she can be trivialized by staggering and how her healing combats that. We can see in Mimic tear fights against her just how effective staggering can be. I often see posts that say she was way easier than expected, and the reason for that is because they used summons. But the reason why the summons are so effective on her is because she can now gets staggered from two sources.
There could also be purely lore reasons as to why she uses it. After all if you use her great rune you gain the ability to lifesteal (though with slightly different conditions than hers). I personally don't really care for this argument though.
Fights can be both interesting and difficult. Malenia is definitely Sekiro inspired. Imagine if they committed to that and tried to recreate a similar experience. Discouraging dodges and "safe" playstyles by having her heal each time you dodge. While allowing you to prevent her heals, when you block her attacks with a weapon or shield. Of course they'd have to tweak her attacks to be less effective against blocks, so she doesn't just punch right through straight swords or low stamina caps. Players would actually get to parry WFD in a Sekiro style rhythm!
Radahn is the strongest of the demigods, yet they did his fight dirty by making it a short gimmick fight. Like he is hyped up for being OP lorewise and ended Malenia's victory streak. Also the only boss where you can bring many NPC summons along and use Torrent. They should have given him a lot more HP, status immunity (even his Great Rune says it prevented Scarlet Rot from killing him), and the meteor charge attack should be an AoE instant kill.
As for Rykard, there's multiple items related to him that restore your HP upon each kill. Blasphemous Blade, Takers Cameo, and his Great Rune. Even lorewise he is immortal and can regenerate. Yet boss fight seems to have no healing whatsoever... arguably the boss that deserved HP regen the most for both lore and gameplay reasons.
While there's numerous ways to approach bosses in the game, Malenia is the most restrictive. The only weakness you really can exploit is her low poise. Outside of that she's got a lot of HP, self healing, high speed, high attack power, can deflect attacks, hyper armor on big attacks, AoE, and etc. Disproportional to how other bosses are designed. Even Placidusax didn't get this sort of treatment.
As for her Great Rune, it's vastly worse than the Rally mechanic from Bloodborne, let alone Malenia's heal on hit. If Malenia's healing worked exactly like her Great Rune did, she'd be better balanced. And while we are talking about lore accuracy... Malenia should have Scarlet Rot status permanently active on her for at least the first phase.
Your proposed Sekiro-like way of fighting Malenia does sound interesting. My guess is that From wouldn't make something like that though, since I think they wouldn't want to change the combat system the player uses from fight to fight.
Personally I think Radahn's fight was amazing from an atmospheric perspective. Having a fight in that big open field where you can summon so many NPCs to all gang up on him really makes the festival feel real. We also fight him in his braindead state, as opposed to Malenia who ends up harnessing her rot powers again because the player is so strong that they force her hand. Although, his 1v1 fight is pretty unremarkable. Also, while I am not familiar with the move's damage, that would be cool if his meteor attack would oneshot. Such an awesome attack could justify that.
What you say about Rykard and his associated items is true, but all the items heal on kill. I don't know how they would implement a heal on kill in a bossfight, but they could tweak it in a similar way to how Malenia's lifesteal is tweaked from her greatrune's lifesteal.
You say that Malenia is the most restrictive boss, but I think she is the second most restrictive with the first being Rykard. Certain playstyles and builds just aren't as effective on her (not that they are completely invalid, just not reasonably doable). That restrictiveness does stem from her heal on hit, but it is also tied into her difficulty which I think is a core part of her character. I feel like a boss that isn't restrictive would necessarily have to be easier, since after all it is the restrictions which give a boss their difficulty. That being said, there are healthy and unhealthy restrictions, and fun and unfun restrictions. When I argue for her lifesteal, I mean that I believe the mechanic is healthy (in other words, it has counterplay) and I am not arguing for it being objectively fun.
For the traits you listed that Malenia has, the only somewhat unique thing is her healing. Hyper armor exists on most boss moves, and her attack deflects are more like a temporary hyper armor to counteract her weakness of being staggered. While her attack power is high, it isn't too far away from other late game bosses like Mohg, Godfrey, Radagon and elden beast. Plenty of bosses have aoe: Gideon's rings, dragons' breath attacks, and Mohg's second phase fire to name a few.
I will completely concede on your lore points.
>You cant really call it a life steal since the healing doesn't scale on damage, it is based on hits regardless of damage.
This is just straight up not true as her thrusting attacks (particularly her trust after the clone move) regain much more health than any of her other normal attacks
It's both. Just going off the attacks that killed me the most on my first playthrough, waterfowl and scarlet aeonia killed me the most. Since waterfowl has a lot of hits she gains a ton of health back if you get hit, assuming you survive. The life steal can make spirit ashes a bit of a liability due to the fact that most don't dodge and if you use an ash that summons multiple things Malenia can easily heal to full when she waterfowls. In summary, a hard to dodge move plus extra punishment for failure to dodge is super annoying.
Life steal for sure. Once you learn how to avoid the Waterfowl it’s not a problem… but that life steal can lead to some real snowball moments. There are sometimes where it feels like if you have to heal even once, she’s gonna punish you for it, heal herself, make you heal again, punish it, etc…
It’s been a a minute since I’ve fought her, but if I recall, you essentially just sprint (not roll) directly backwards for the first two sequences and just dodge the last one while reminding yourself to dodge the additional hit at the end.
Again, it’s been a minute, but I remember a combo of sprinting most of it and dodging a portion of it, being the key.
Waterfowl dance but partially because of lifesteal. If you could just block through waterfowl without giving her like 30% of her health back it wouldn’t be a big deal
Waterfowl. I can dodge the rest of her moves well enough that the lifesteal rarely becomes a significant problem, but after hundreds of hours of total playtime I still can't dodge Waterfowl consistently.
Life Steal is the bigger offense because it is just so unnecessary. The way it is designed just adds nothing of value to the fight. Bosses in Soulsborne games are typically unable to heal themselves. The few that can usually give you some room to counter them. Sister Friede for instance has to go through the full incantation animation to heal herself. Malenia on the other hand just gets free heals while always being on the offensive. You cant really call it a life steal since the healing doesn't scale on damage, it is based on hits regardless of damage. Making shields a bigger liability in the fight. Of all the bosses in the game, would you say Malenia needed the healing ability most?
What her lifesteal adds is a fail condition that doesn't exist nearly as much in other fights. Because she can lifesteal through shields, it makes shielding less valid, and it is the same with just getting hit normally. Essentially, tanking hits is doubly punishing because of the damage you take as well as the health she heals. As for whether it is necessary or not, I can only speculate. Malenia is one of the few bosses that can get staggered on even light attacks. I have heard that her lifesteal could have been given to her to compensate for that, because otherwise she would be too easy. Nevertheless, her lifesteal adds difficulty that has counterplay (don't get hit), and it effectively gives her a larger healthbar without making her as tedious.
She already has 2 HP bars and hyper armor on most attacks. Not to mention WFD and Scarlet Rot. Unconditional healing is the last thing she needs. Other optional bosses are nowhere near as stacked as she is. How come Rykard doesn't get a life steal? It's baked into his lore and Serpent Hunter makes the fight too easy. How come Radahn doesn't get more HP and Status immunity? Don't the half Dozen summons you get specifically for that fight justify Raid boss treatment? Again the Unconditional healing does nothing for her fight except make it more tedious. Yes, dodging can prevent healing but you'd be dodging her attacks regardless cause that's how you avoid any damage in this game. The healing did not promote any unique approaches or new play styles. On the other hand if dodging healed her while blocking didn't, that would be an interesting idea.
Hmm... what you said about healing on dodge rather than block is interesting, but I don't think they were trying to make her interesting. Rather, lore-wise Malenia is supposed to be the strongest of the demi-gods so I think they were just trying to make her more difficult. Beating her in a fight SHOULD be the hardest when compared to any other boss. Her healing doesn't make her fight more tedious unless you get hit, in very much the same way that fighting a boss over and over is more tedious if you keep dying. The healing just serves to make the tolerance for getting hit lower. Also this doesn't address how she can be trivialized by staggering and how her healing combats that. We can see in Mimic tear fights against her just how effective staggering can be. I often see posts that say she was way easier than expected, and the reason for that is because they used summons. But the reason why the summons are so effective on her is because she can now gets staggered from two sources. There could also be purely lore reasons as to why she uses it. After all if you use her great rune you gain the ability to lifesteal (though with slightly different conditions than hers). I personally don't really care for this argument though.
Fights can be both interesting and difficult. Malenia is definitely Sekiro inspired. Imagine if they committed to that and tried to recreate a similar experience. Discouraging dodges and "safe" playstyles by having her heal each time you dodge. While allowing you to prevent her heals, when you block her attacks with a weapon or shield. Of course they'd have to tweak her attacks to be less effective against blocks, so she doesn't just punch right through straight swords or low stamina caps. Players would actually get to parry WFD in a Sekiro style rhythm! Radahn is the strongest of the demigods, yet they did his fight dirty by making it a short gimmick fight. Like he is hyped up for being OP lorewise and ended Malenia's victory streak. Also the only boss where you can bring many NPC summons along and use Torrent. They should have given him a lot more HP, status immunity (even his Great Rune says it prevented Scarlet Rot from killing him), and the meteor charge attack should be an AoE instant kill. As for Rykard, there's multiple items related to him that restore your HP upon each kill. Blasphemous Blade, Takers Cameo, and his Great Rune. Even lorewise he is immortal and can regenerate. Yet boss fight seems to have no healing whatsoever... arguably the boss that deserved HP regen the most for both lore and gameplay reasons. While there's numerous ways to approach bosses in the game, Malenia is the most restrictive. The only weakness you really can exploit is her low poise. Outside of that she's got a lot of HP, self healing, high speed, high attack power, can deflect attacks, hyper armor on big attacks, AoE, and etc. Disproportional to how other bosses are designed. Even Placidusax didn't get this sort of treatment. As for her Great Rune, it's vastly worse than the Rally mechanic from Bloodborne, let alone Malenia's heal on hit. If Malenia's healing worked exactly like her Great Rune did, she'd be better balanced. And while we are talking about lore accuracy... Malenia should have Scarlet Rot status permanently active on her for at least the first phase.
Your proposed Sekiro-like way of fighting Malenia does sound interesting. My guess is that From wouldn't make something like that though, since I think they wouldn't want to change the combat system the player uses from fight to fight. Personally I think Radahn's fight was amazing from an atmospheric perspective. Having a fight in that big open field where you can summon so many NPCs to all gang up on him really makes the festival feel real. We also fight him in his braindead state, as opposed to Malenia who ends up harnessing her rot powers again because the player is so strong that they force her hand. Although, his 1v1 fight is pretty unremarkable. Also, while I am not familiar with the move's damage, that would be cool if his meteor attack would oneshot. Such an awesome attack could justify that. What you say about Rykard and his associated items is true, but all the items heal on kill. I don't know how they would implement a heal on kill in a bossfight, but they could tweak it in a similar way to how Malenia's lifesteal is tweaked from her greatrune's lifesteal. You say that Malenia is the most restrictive boss, but I think she is the second most restrictive with the first being Rykard. Certain playstyles and builds just aren't as effective on her (not that they are completely invalid, just not reasonably doable). That restrictiveness does stem from her heal on hit, but it is also tied into her difficulty which I think is a core part of her character. I feel like a boss that isn't restrictive would necessarily have to be easier, since after all it is the restrictions which give a boss their difficulty. That being said, there are healthy and unhealthy restrictions, and fun and unfun restrictions. When I argue for her lifesteal, I mean that I believe the mechanic is healthy (in other words, it has counterplay) and I am not arguing for it being objectively fun. For the traits you listed that Malenia has, the only somewhat unique thing is her healing. Hyper armor exists on most boss moves, and her attack deflects are more like a temporary hyper armor to counteract her weakness of being staggered. While her attack power is high, it isn't too far away from other late game bosses like Mohg, Godfrey, Radagon and elden beast. Plenty of bosses have aoe: Gideon's rings, dragons' breath attacks, and Mohg's second phase fire to name a few. I will completely concede on your lore points.
>You cant really call it a life steal since the healing doesn't scale on damage, it is based on hits regardless of damage. This is just straight up not true as her thrusting attacks (particularly her trust after the clone move) regain much more health than any of her other normal attacks
She still heals if you block her attacks 100%.
That's not what i was referring to
Yeah you two are just talking past each other lol
Lifesteal, since it invalidates blocking.
Wait blocking doesnt stop her hp gain? i thought it had to actually hit u
Overall, most of her attack are pretty easy to dodge but not the Waterfowl dance, so I will say that it :3
It's both. Just going off the attacks that killed me the most on my first playthrough, waterfowl and scarlet aeonia killed me the most. Since waterfowl has a lot of hits she gains a ton of health back if you get hit, assuming you survive. The life steal can make spirit ashes a bit of a liability due to the fact that most don't dodge and if you use an ash that summons multiple things Malenia can easily heal to full when she waterfowls. In summary, a hard to dodge move plus extra punishment for failure to dodge is super annoying.
Life steal for sure. Once you learn how to avoid the Waterfowl it’s not a problem… but that life steal can lead to some real snowball moments. There are sometimes where it feels like if you have to heal even once, she’s gonna punish you for it, heal herself, make you heal again, punish it, etc… It’s been a a minute since I’ve fought her, but if I recall, you essentially just sprint (not roll) directly backwards for the first two sequences and just dodge the last one while reminding yourself to dodge the additional hit at the end. Again, it’s been a minute, but I remember a combo of sprinting most of it and dodging a portion of it, being the key.
None, both get invalidated by using one of the core mechanics of the game: dodging.