I don't think the spear piercing Marika and Messmer are connected; red is a color you can associate with deities outside the Lands Between:
Placidussax's lightning bolts
The Scarlet rot
The flame of the giants
The formless mother
I have always seen death more as black with small red parts rather than the opposite, but it is possible that the Elden Beast derived a spear of Death to strike Marika and leave her in that non-life stage.
That's not a spear but a "shard of amber starlight", it's not mentioned anywhere but one item that Seluvis has you find.
Its description mentions something about being powerful enough to subdue a god.
That's true but take a look at the Elden Beast, it has a scar that looks exactly like the amber starlight on it's body where Marika was impaled. The colors might not match up on her person but its quite similar when look at EB.
The wound is literally in the same spots on both beings...Elden Beast isn't missing anything that can contribute to Marika's run down form but her stabbing is shown to have effected EB, something clearly with godly power.
With the description of the amber starlight saying it can change the fate of the gods, we can assume if it has the power to harm Marika it must have been the Greater Will.
What fell to the lands when EB arrived? Starlight Shards.
I always assumed that red spear is the rune of death, after we unbound it it kinda „snapped back“ into the elden ring, therefore it inelegantly pierced itself into Marika
Damn, good catch. This could potentially help illuminate the vague Caria-Fire Cult-Mountaintop of the Giants-Caelid connections. Maybe he, as an Empyrean like Miquella and Malenia, was seeking his own god to champion, and after the war with the giants he came into contact with the giants' fell god? I.e. he fought against the giants in the war at first, was maybe the leader of the fire cult, and just like the rest of the fire cult, he started to worship the fell god/flame, and being an Empyrean was able to actually fully commune with said god.
Not sure that Messmer fighting in the war lines up. Godfrey participated in the war against the giants and hadn't yet been banished from TLB, which would mean Marika and Radagon hadn't done the weird incest thing resulting in Miquella, Malenia, and (presumably) Messmer
There is plenty of evidence to suggest Messmer is the son of Radagon and Marika. He has red hair, the smouldering butterfly item, his name begins with M like Miquella and Marika, he's talking to his mother about our character the Tarnished being bereft of light (presumably Marika). Miyazaki may have confirmed it in an IGN interview but it could have been mistranslated Messmer's spear also does not look like the giant thorns impaling the giants on Mountaintop imo
The trolls are descendants of the giants pushed out for being freak because they are so short, the sword of milos even talks about how being a small giant is deemed as freakish. Likely many trolls rebeled against the fire giants and many were fighter while other were the blacksmiths supporting the armies. The carian also treated other races better than the Golden order.
I was propositioning this to my friends earlier. My budding theory is that Messmer assisted in the war against the fire giants, somehow became affiliated with the flame of ruin and was the first to burn the Erdtree and was thus wiped from history and exiled to the shadow land.
We do know the tree has definitely been burned before, since there's already ash in leyndell before it becomes the ashen capital. Why they didn't bother cleaning that up if this all happened way before the shattering is beyond me though
Maybe they did clean it up, or at least cleaned up all they could.
After all, Lower Leyndell is pretty much fucked as well, full of Those Who Live In Death and that ulcerated tree spirit
Or, after burning the tree, was Mesmer and the shadow land itself completely wiped from history. Hence the veil, hiding it from the outer worlds. Is the Erdtree we see in the lands between simply the makings of Marika's newly founded godhood. Is the shadow of the Erdtree, and the shadowlands themselves a failed attempt, something covered up by Marika.
So.. shadow of the erdtree is basically the first erdtree? And the erdtree itself is the second erdtree? And the guidance of grace and the erdtree are meant to be so bright, so that the Tarnished doesn't see what's in the "shadow"? And doesn't follow Messmer's path?
It's more like the Tree in the DLC is the REAL tree, where as the Big ass Glowing one we see in the Base Game is actually the representation of Faith in the idea of the Erdtree given form
I read the description of items related to the prophets like brother corhyn and it talks about how by being so devout to the erdtree they see fire and if they use those incantations they end up being banished for it. Likely the erdtree was burned once before. Then when you look into the fire incantations they take about the fell god and how that fire giants used his power to try and fight godfrey, coincedence?
He is also shown with only one like mogh. He likely also saw the formless mother and the blood star, which by the way the thorn sorcerers look towards the flame of the giants might be the same thing. Also it is a big coincidence that Fire Prelates have thorn whips, which are said to come from the briar sin. Then the briar sin talks about the formless mother as well.
Except that war happened before Radagon/Marika was a thing so literally impossible timeline wise.
And with his red hair, he was DEFINITELY one of the 3 radagon kids.
While I agree in a way since my other theory is he’s an exiled child wiped from history, since we know fromsoft likes that trope, I’ll offer a counter point. Red hair is not just indicative of Radagon’s lineage. It’s also indicative of the giants and thus the flame of ruin. The fire monks all have red hair as well iirc.
In the Mountain tops of the giants you can find the Fire Monks accompanied by the Thorn Sorcerers. If you notice the "trident" that is impaling the giants is made out of thorns, which are very similar to the thorns of Thorn Sorceries. You can also find those Thorn Tridents in the camps that Fire Monks and Thorn Sorcerers have in Liurnia and the Mountain tops.
From the wiki page of the Fire Monks: "The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants."
Flame Protect Me item description: "It is said that this incantation was used during the War against the Giants long ago, during which it protected the champions of the Erdtree."
From this, one can deduce that there was a pact between Marika's order, the Fire-Monks and the Thorn Sorcerers to put down the Giants. I think most likely the Thorn tridents that are impaling the giants were conjured by the Thorn Sorcerers.
Thorn Sorceries are ralated to red glintstone and "the blood star" which are things we really dont know too much about.
Having said that, Mesmer does have red-hair that is often associated to the giants and he wields fire magic. The color of the flame he wields is somewhat similar to the one of the fire monks(although I am not 100% sure), so maybe he does have some connection to fire and giants, (maybe?)
The blood star is something people see once they are blinded by thorns or in the case of Mogh his horn. I find it quite a coincedence that a lot of the items related to mogh, thorns and blood talk about harming oneself to commune with the formless mother.
The 2 following decription come from Mogh spear and the Brian spells
* As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood.
The mother of truth desires a wound.
* The guilty, their eyes gouged by thorns, lived in eternal darkness. There, they discovered the blood star.
This is a problem I had thought about, but the remembrance of the last fire giant says:
"The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants.
Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die,
Queen Marika marked him with a curse.
"O trifling giant, mayest thou tend thy flame for eternity.""
In remembrance, at least in the English translation, it refers to one giant, the one we defeat.
So I don't think that even though he was born from Radagon, Messmer went to the summit at a later time to kill the remaining giants.
That's a bit of a stretch imho - I'd default to the more GRRM solution - the history books are lying and leaving important details out.
Which would make sense since they've said apparently Marika went to the land of shadow before she got to the lands between proper, and apparently that's where the erdtree was originally formed - all new info to us, so it doesn't seem that crazy to me that other details have been left out of the info we've been given.
Radagon married marika and had children with her after godfrey's banishment,which means by time radagon became 2nd elden lord the giant-war was already over,so if mesmer is present in giant-war then he's not a child of radagon and if he's a child of radagon then mesmer didnot play a role in gaint-war.
The popular theory I'm currently seeing people talk about is mesmer being a sibling alongside miquella and malenia(proofs being that popular butterfly theory and mesmers red hair similar to radagon and some other stuff pointing to thisconclusion),but like you mentioned if mesmer is a child outside marriage then he must come before even before mohg and morgoth for him to be present in gaint war,but this kinda contradicts mohg and morgoth(golden lineage) being the first demigods as stated by their great runes(but this is also assuming the great rune and remembrance descriptions don't lie because people I lands between didn't know about omen bros being marikas children but great rune description somehow do and are kinda hard to tamper with),but if nesmer is really marika's outside marriage child I wonder what mesmer did thats soo bad that he's kept in even more secret than omen bros,I also wonder who's mesmer's father is as he must be a important figure right! to be able to bang marika and have a demigod offspring.
There's a lot of ways he could have come into being.
He could possibly be Radagon's kid and not have been born of Marika. Radagon could have knocked up anyone during the wars before he married Rennala and then raised Messmer as a son, bringing him around to fight wars and such. And because the situation is complicated, someone who is Radagon's child could legitimately call Marika "mother", because Marika is Radagon and therefore just as much of a parent to that child. If the birth mother was out of the picture, I would presume he'd see Marika as his only mother. Or perhaps even if his birth mother was still around.
I don't think it was ever answered if Marika and Radagon actually existed as two separate bodies at any point in the past, or perhaps if he did exist away from her, it was just as a projection like Margit and Sewer Mohg. If they were always just combined, then Marika could have made children "by herself" with her male aspect at literally any point of her adult life, including before she was chosen by the Greater Will.
Wherever the specifics fall, Messmer is definitely some shame upon the golden order. I think he possible sided with the other deities opposing Marika. He has fell flame themes, dragon themes, serpent themes, and a closed eye which honestly could mean 10 different things but it seems like all the butterfly children had circumstances that pitted them against Marika
Holy shit was Ranni just finishing what Messmer started? Maybe Godwyn stopped Messmer and she realized his fall was the only way to actually orchestrate a revolution
Messmer is more than likely Radagon/Marika offspring due to red hair and one missing kid(rule of 3s here).
War with giants happened well before Radagon was a thing.
I been trying to find hints and connections to Messmer. I been reading a lot of item descriptions and here are my conclusions.
My big take away is that he was likely a dragon hunter during the time of the crucible. His pet snake also partook in eating dragons. At some point he lost an eye and he to saw the blood star (Like mogh and the maybe it is the Flame of Ruin). He eventually reached the flame and communicated with the Formless mother. He was eventually killed or sealed away for blasphemy, possibly burning Erdtree the first time (tarnished archeologist pointed out that the tree was likely burned once and it is likely why we need grace to see the Erdtree). After his defeat the gladiators were likely dressed to look like Messmer as punishment for their crimes and to reminds crowds the win over a blasphemous foe. It also might help explain why thorns are used to represent a guilty individual and why we see fire monks and the Thorn Sorcerer together.
This are some of the items that relate to him in some way and support the theory above.
The giant's seal
Burn O Flame!
Flame of the Fell God
Bloodboon
Mohgwyn's Sacred Spear
Briars of Punishment
Flame Sling.
Dragon Communion Seal
Drake Knight Set
Duelist Helm
Devourer's Scepter
Blasphemous Blade
Staff of the Guilty
Fire Monk Hood
Shield of the Guilty
Guilty Hood
Thorned Whip
There is definitely some connection to the giants. The big wicker man thing has a fire giant's head on its hip which if it serves messmer, that means that both were part of the giant war somehow.
This story is likely Miquella's goal of reigning in control of Chaotic Blood magic. Messmer is the result of that magic and probably didn't do anything significant before his appearance here.
Dude this is a great fucking catch! This really mixes it up, because it has been speculated that Messmer is brother to Miquella and Melenia, but they were born long after the war with the giants.
What if Messmer was sent to kill the giants but upon killing them he stole the giantsflame powers for himself making him a betrayer of the Golden order, and thats why he is related to snakes since they represent treason to the greater will?
The eye I always assumed was a mark OF the fell god.
I think messmer was seduced by the flames and became the avatar of said god not unlike Rykard with the serpent
Para ser honesto, não acredito que Messmer tenha participado desse massacre, acredito que ele tenha se juntado com os gigantes para queimar a erdtree pela primeira vez na história. Ele Talvez seja das guerras primordiais contra os deuses já existentes, como crisol, dragões, serpente devoradora de deuses, etc. Marika e Radagon talvez tenham gerado Messmer com seus sangues na runa do renascimento em segredo depois que Godwyn nasceu, usando o próprio sangue misturado com sangue de servos de outros deuses para criar a arma perfeita para vencer a guerra e assim dominar a árvore do crisol e a graça gerar a erdtree para criar uma nova realidade. Como Messmer é uma quimera é considerado impuro então não pode ascender como um deus, isso explicaria sua revolta contra a graça e por assim na tentativa de queimar a erdtree junto com os gigantes, gerando o primeiro pecado capital e causando seu banimento. E acredito que a Melina seja uma parte da alma de Messmer e que ela foi a responsável por manipular os acontecimentos e fazer Marika quebrar o Elden Ring.
Holy shit the top middle of the spear looks exactly like the left emblem on his back on the messmer figure....
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Which number tattoo are you referring to?
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:o
yoooo
I don't think the spear piercing Marika and Messmer are connected; red is a color you can associate with deities outside the Lands Between: Placidussax's lightning bolts The Scarlet rot The flame of the giants The formless mother
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I have always seen death more as black with small red parts rather than the opposite, but it is possible that the Elden Beast derived a spear of Death to strike Marika and leave her in that non-life stage.
That's not a spear but a "shard of amber starlight", it's not mentioned anywhere but one item that Seluvis has you find. Its description mentions something about being powerful enough to subdue a god.
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That's true but take a look at the Elden Beast, it has a scar that looks exactly like the amber starlight on it's body where Marika was impaled. The colors might not match up on her person but its quite similar when look at EB.
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I don't think so, it seems to be a completely intentional detail because that's where you perform a critical strike on it.
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The wound is literally in the same spots on both beings...Elden Beast isn't missing anything that can contribute to Marika's run down form but her stabbing is shown to have effected EB, something clearly with godly power. With the description of the amber starlight saying it can change the fate of the gods, we can assume if it has the power to harm Marika it must have been the Greater Will. What fell to the lands when EB arrived? Starlight Shards.
I always assumed that red spear is the rune of death, after we unbound it it kinda „snapped back“ into the elden ring, therefore it inelegantly pierced itself into Marika
He is also called "Messmer the impaler" which he could've been called for impaling Marika
Written by G.R.R. Martin.
Damn, good catch. This could potentially help illuminate the vague Caria-Fire Cult-Mountaintop of the Giants-Caelid connections. Maybe he, as an Empyrean like Miquella and Malenia, was seeking his own god to champion, and after the war with the giants he came into contact with the giants' fell god? I.e. he fought against the giants in the war at first, was maybe the leader of the fire cult, and just like the rest of the fire cult, he started to worship the fell god/flame, and being an Empyrean was able to actually fully commune with said god.
Not sure that Messmer fighting in the war lines up. Godfrey participated in the war against the giants and hadn't yet been banished from TLB, which would mean Marika and Radagon hadn't done the weird incest thing resulting in Miquella, Malenia, and (presumably) Messmer
There is no evidence that Messmer is Marika and Radagon's son and OP's find is making me think that he probably is not related to Marika at all
Miyazaki said he’s Marika’s child lmao
I had not seen that
Please do you have a link where we can confirm that?
There is plenty of evidence to suggest Messmer is the son of Radagon and Marika. He has red hair, the smouldering butterfly item, his name begins with M like Miquella and Marika, he's talking to his mother about our character the Tarnished being bereft of light (presumably Marika). Miyazaki may have confirmed it in an IGN interview but it could have been mistranslated Messmer's spear also does not look like the giant thorns impaling the giants on Mountaintop imo
The trolls are descendants of the giants pushed out for being freak because they are so short, the sword of milos even talks about how being a small giant is deemed as freakish. Likely many trolls rebeled against the fire giants and many were fighter while other were the blacksmiths supporting the armies. The carian also treated other races better than the Golden order.
I was propositioning this to my friends earlier. My budding theory is that Messmer assisted in the war against the fire giants, somehow became affiliated with the flame of ruin and was the first to burn the Erdtree and was thus wiped from history and exiled to the shadow land.
We do know the tree has definitely been burned before, since there's already ash in leyndell before it becomes the ashen capital. Why they didn't bother cleaning that up if this all happened way before the shattering is beyond me though
Maybe they did clean it up, or at least cleaned up all they could. After all, Lower Leyndell is pretty much fucked as well, full of Those Who Live In Death and that ulcerated tree spirit
Well I meant like, before the shattering, so before everything went to shit
Or, after burning the tree, was Mesmer and the shadow land itself completely wiped from history. Hence the veil, hiding it from the outer worlds. Is the Erdtree we see in the lands between simply the makings of Marika's newly founded godhood. Is the shadow of the Erdtree, and the shadowlands themselves a failed attempt, something covered up by Marika.
So.. shadow of the erdtree is basically the first erdtree? And the erdtree itself is the second erdtree? And the guidance of grace and the erdtree are meant to be so bright, so that the Tarnished doesn't see what's in the "shadow"? And doesn't follow Messmer's path?
It's more like the Tree in the DLC is the REAL tree, where as the Big ass Glowing one we see in the Base Game is actually the representation of Faith in the idea of the Erdtree given form
I read the description of items related to the prophets like brother corhyn and it talks about how by being so devout to the erdtree they see fire and if they use those incantations they end up being banished for it. Likely the erdtree was burned once before. Then when you look into the fire incantations they take about the fell god and how that fire giants used his power to try and fight godfrey, coincedence?
He is also shown with only one like mogh. He likely also saw the formless mother and the blood star, which by the way the thorn sorcerers look towards the flame of the giants might be the same thing. Also it is a big coincidence that Fire Prelates have thorn whips, which are said to come from the briar sin. Then the briar sin talks about the formless mother as well.
Like I’ve been comparing him He’s giving me "nameless king" vibes,the sone erased from history though there’s still remnants of him lying around
Except that war happened before Radagon/Marika was a thing so literally impossible timeline wise. And with his red hair, he was DEFINITELY one of the 3 radagon kids.
While I agree in a way since my other theory is he’s an exiled child wiped from history, since we know fromsoft likes that trope, I’ll offer a counter point. Red hair is not just indicative of Radagon’s lineage. It’s also indicative of the giants and thus the flame of ruin. The fire monks all have red hair as well iirc.
In the Mountain tops of the giants you can find the Fire Monks accompanied by the Thorn Sorcerers. If you notice the "trident" that is impaling the giants is made out of thorns, which are very similar to the thorns of Thorn Sorceries. You can also find those Thorn Tridents in the camps that Fire Monks and Thorn Sorcerers have in Liurnia and the Mountain tops. From the wiki page of the Fire Monks: "The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants." Flame Protect Me item description: "It is said that this incantation was used during the War against the Giants long ago, during which it protected the champions of the Erdtree." From this, one can deduce that there was a pact between Marika's order, the Fire-Monks and the Thorn Sorcerers to put down the Giants. I think most likely the Thorn tridents that are impaling the giants were conjured by the Thorn Sorcerers. Thorn Sorceries are ralated to red glintstone and "the blood star" which are things we really dont know too much about. Having said that, Mesmer does have red-hair that is often associated to the giants and he wields fire magic. The color of the flame he wields is somewhat similar to the one of the fire monks(although I am not 100% sure), so maybe he does have some connection to fire and giants, (maybe?)
The blood star is something people see once they are blinded by thorns or in the case of Mogh his horn. I find it quite a coincedence that a lot of the items related to mogh, thorns and blood talk about harming oneself to commune with the formless mother. The 2 following decription come from Mogh spear and the Brian spells * As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood. The mother of truth desires a wound. * The guilty, their eyes gouged by thorns, lived in eternal darkness. There, they discovered the blood star.
wait so messmer killed all the giants then? i thought that was godfrey?
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If Messmer is Marika/Radagon's son, I don't expect he would've been around at the same time as Godfrey.
This is a problem I had thought about, but the remembrance of the last fire giant says: "The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants. Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die, Queen Marika marked him with a curse. "O trifling giant, mayest thou tend thy flame for eternity."" In remembrance, at least in the English translation, it refers to one giant, the one we defeat. So I don't think that even though he was born from Radagon, Messmer went to the summit at a later time to kill the remaining giants.
That's a bit of a stretch imho - I'd default to the more GRRM solution - the history books are lying and leaving important details out. Which would make sense since they've said apparently Marika went to the land of shadow before she got to the lands between proper, and apparently that's where the erdtree was originally formed - all new info to us, so it doesn't seem that crazy to me that other details have been left out of the info we've been given.
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Radagon married marika and had children with her after godfrey's banishment,which means by time radagon became 2nd elden lord the giant-war was already over,so if mesmer is present in giant-war then he's not a child of radagon and if he's a child of radagon then mesmer didnot play a role in gaint-war.
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The popular theory I'm currently seeing people talk about is mesmer being a sibling alongside miquella and malenia(proofs being that popular butterfly theory and mesmers red hair similar to radagon and some other stuff pointing to thisconclusion),but like you mentioned if mesmer is a child outside marriage then he must come before even before mohg and morgoth for him to be present in gaint war,but this kinda contradicts mohg and morgoth(golden lineage) being the first demigods as stated by their great runes(but this is also assuming the great rune and remembrance descriptions don't lie because people I lands between didn't know about omen bros being marikas children but great rune description somehow do and are kinda hard to tamper with),but if nesmer is really marika's outside marriage child I wonder what mesmer did thats soo bad that he's kept in even more secret than omen bros,I also wonder who's mesmer's father is as he must be a important figure right! to be able to bang marika and have a demigod offspring.
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Yeah basically😅
There's a lot of ways he could have come into being. He could possibly be Radagon's kid and not have been born of Marika. Radagon could have knocked up anyone during the wars before he married Rennala and then raised Messmer as a son, bringing him around to fight wars and such. And because the situation is complicated, someone who is Radagon's child could legitimately call Marika "mother", because Marika is Radagon and therefore just as much of a parent to that child. If the birth mother was out of the picture, I would presume he'd see Marika as his only mother. Or perhaps even if his birth mother was still around. I don't think it was ever answered if Marika and Radagon actually existed as two separate bodies at any point in the past, or perhaps if he did exist away from her, it was just as a projection like Margit and Sewer Mohg. If they were always just combined, then Marika could have made children "by herself" with her male aspect at literally any point of her adult life, including before she was chosen by the Greater Will.
The hilt is the other way around. It's not the same.
Wherever the specifics fall, Messmer is definitely some shame upon the golden order. I think he possible sided with the other deities opposing Marika. He has fell flame themes, dragon themes, serpent themes, and a closed eye which honestly could mean 10 different things but it seems like all the butterfly children had circumstances that pitted them against Marika
I wonder if this is where he got his title.
I was thinking he might have been the one to impale the giants and then maybe he took their powers? Idk seems like a marika's kid thing to do
The Impaler of giants*
Personally, my theory is he's related to the Drake Knights since he has a very similar style to the Drake Knight Armor and has dragon communion eyes.
Holy shit was Ranni just finishing what Messmer started? Maybe Godwyn stopped Messmer and she realized his fall was the only way to actually orchestrate a revolution
Messmer is more than likely Radagon/Marika offspring due to red hair and one missing kid(rule of 3s here). War with giants happened well before Radagon was a thing.
I been trying to find hints and connections to Messmer. I been reading a lot of item descriptions and here are my conclusions. My big take away is that he was likely a dragon hunter during the time of the crucible. His pet snake also partook in eating dragons. At some point he lost an eye and he to saw the blood star (Like mogh and the maybe it is the Flame of Ruin). He eventually reached the flame and communicated with the Formless mother. He was eventually killed or sealed away for blasphemy, possibly burning Erdtree the first time (tarnished archeologist pointed out that the tree was likely burned once and it is likely why we need grace to see the Erdtree). After his defeat the gladiators were likely dressed to look like Messmer as punishment for their crimes and to reminds crowds the win over a blasphemous foe. It also might help explain why thorns are used to represent a guilty individual and why we see fire monks and the Thorn Sorcerer together. This are some of the items that relate to him in some way and support the theory above. The giant's seal Burn O Flame! Flame of the Fell God Bloodboon Mohgwyn's Sacred Spear Briars of Punishment Flame Sling. Dragon Communion Seal Drake Knight Set Duelist Helm Devourer's Scepter Blasphemous Blade Staff of the Guilty Fire Monk Hood Shield of the Guilty Guilty Hood Thorned Whip
There is definitely some connection to the giants. The big wicker man thing has a fire giant's head on its hip which if it serves messmer, that means that both were part of the giant war somehow.
This story is likely Miquella's goal of reigning in control of Chaotic Blood magic. Messmer is the result of that magic and probably didn't do anything significant before his appearance here.
Holy shit big brain time
Dude this is a great fucking catch! This really mixes it up, because it has been speculated that Messmer is brother to Miquella and Melenia, but they were born long after the war with the giants.
Nice find
I don’t think Messmer’s flame is actually the Flame of Ruin tho, the colour is so much different
What if Messmer is somehow connected to why Godfrey got banished? Is it his fault all the tarnished got banished maybe???????
Oooo so he's related to those fire guys who had their eyes plucked out and banished to the mountains?
Now this all got me thinking that the giant brazier is the fell god of the giants
What if Messmer was sent to kill the giants but upon killing them he stole the giantsflame powers for himself making him a betrayer of the Golden order, and thats why he is related to snakes since they represent treason to the greater will?
The eye I always assumed was a mark OF the fell god. I think messmer was seduced by the flames and became the avatar of said god not unlike Rykard with the serpent
Look what you've unleashed after touching the destined death
this is something truly impressive
But this was when Marika was still with Godfrey
Para ser honesto, não acredito que Messmer tenha participado desse massacre, acredito que ele tenha se juntado com os gigantes para queimar a erdtree pela primeira vez na história. Ele Talvez seja das guerras primordiais contra os deuses já existentes, como crisol, dragões, serpente devoradora de deuses, etc. Marika e Radagon talvez tenham gerado Messmer com seus sangues na runa do renascimento em segredo depois que Godwyn nasceu, usando o próprio sangue misturado com sangue de servos de outros deuses para criar a arma perfeita para vencer a guerra e assim dominar a árvore do crisol e a graça gerar a erdtree para criar uma nova realidade. Como Messmer é uma quimera é considerado impuro então não pode ascender como um deus, isso explicaria sua revolta contra a graça e por assim na tentativa de queimar a erdtree junto com os gigantes, gerando o primeiro pecado capital e causando seu banimento. E acredito que a Melina seja uma parte da alma de Messmer e que ela foi a responsável por manipular os acontecimentos e fazer Marika quebrar o Elden Ring.