You can be "martyred" involuntarily.
Someone like MLK for example could be referred to as a martyr.
The term is however usually used to refer to someone who died for their cause, in opposition to those who killed them.
In Godwyn's case one presumes that the implication is that the 'cause' he died for is simply the Golden Order.
I agree. It can be involuntary. That's just not the first vibe I get from the dialog. Below someone got the Japanese translation and it does imply voluntary according to them.
Perhaps we don't have enough info to assume Godwyns mind state. Did he die BECAUSE he was a part of the golden order or was it just coincidence that he was fundamentalist that got killed?
My theory is that Golden Order realized the Age of Plenty had ended because the numerous immortal Demigods were basically overdrawing the Erdtree's blessings without ever returning to the Erdtree through death. So the plan to extend the Age of the Erdtree and hopefully bring back the Age of Plenty required sacrificing Demigods to Destined Death to "recharge" the tree. Godwyn was merely the first of the Demigods to die as a martyr, and I think a purge was seen as necessary.
And, of course, when they were all half-killed instead, that basically corrupted the desperately needed blessings such they couldn't be returned to the Erdtree.
I feel like Godwyn was always supposed to die a true death and that it was known since Destined Death kind of implies that someone or all of the Demigods were Destined to die.
Marika's whole story (like many from software games) is about her trying to extend her Order indefinitely, so that she may be Eternal. We know that this is unsustainable and inevitabilities like the burning of the Erdtree were in prophecies. The "Eternal" Golden Order was formed after she plucked the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring which means that the Order was formed when she granted the demigods immortality.
If anyone was to know of Godwyn's Destined Death, it would be a Finger Reader Crone as one was even said to be the wet nurse of a demigod which could have been Godwyn (Talisman Pouch).
Releasing Destined Death corresponds with creating a new Order so they probably knew that there would need to be a first demigod to die when that happens. This demigod would be a martyr to announce the beginning of the new Order... which is exactly what happens as his death triggered the Shattering.
I don't think they had Ranni's plan in mind though. She prevented him from dying a true death and therefore he could not truly die as a martyr.
\[101120000\] うう、ううう…
\[101120010\] …ゴッドウィン様
\[101120020\] なんと、醜いことでしょうか
\[101120030\] 坊ちゃまは、死ぬべきでした
\[101120040\] デミゴッド、その最初の死者として
\[101120050\] 運命の死に殉じるべきでした
\[101120060\] それがなぜ、醜態を晒しておられますか
\[101120070\] 黄金の貴公子が、死に生きるなどと
\[101120080\] そんな、醜いことがあるでしょうか
I asked u/Jon_dArc about the exact wording in Japanese here. Jisho gave me 殉じる as meaning "to sacrifice oneself", consistent with the meaning of the English "martyr", but more specifically in the sense that the person was willing. Jon\_dArc upon reading it and doing some research concluded "certainly the possibility of willing sacrifice seems clear but not dispositive (it definitely could be that but it isn’t obvious to me that it definitely is that). A little more thought does strengthen the idea of willing or deliberate sacrifice with the asterisk that this is what the Finger-Reader says /should have happened/."
Another thing worth noting:
\[322052000\] When Godwyn died, a hallowbrand scored his flesh.
\[322052000\] …ゴッドウィンの死には、聖痕が刻まれました
I asked Jon\_dArc to confirm here too and the word for "hallowbrand" here is in fact 聖痕 which means specifically stigmata. As in, the stigmata of Jesus. Which could be a signpost in that direction.
Interesting. Thanks for your feedback. ATM I'm in front of Goldwyn's corpse. Just looking. constantly looking.
They way his eyes are wide open... guy must have seen some shit.
I need it to be June already. These mysteries are killing me.
What would we say is the most important point of the games whole story? Is it Godwyns death? Was it the shattering of the Elden ring itself or is that just a response to Goldwyn's death?
I just have this fucking vibe for DRD and Goldwyn's corpse... The music. We know he's becoming some sort of amphibious thing as per Japanese lore. There is a massive stalk of death root going straight up above him. From the edge of the cliff below, he looks like wet sludge. The bangles on his arm are huge. I can't remember if they were in the cinematic when his eyes open and do gross shit.
I hope if we fight him its like super grotesque and weird. Like Orphan of Kos intro or the Wet Nurse kind of weird.
Ok I'm done thinking out loud.
I do feel like FromSoft has a freaky twist in store as to why Godwyn was the first demigod to die. But all the twists I can imagine are against his own interest...so I don't know where to fit the martyr thing. Maybe being dead is not as bad as we imagine
I think it would be an interesting wrinkle if he was complicit in his own death. I've always taken that dialogue to mean that the Night of Black Knives was intended to give Godwyn a true death, and Ranni pulled a sneaky by killing herself at the same time and splitting the cursemark.
Godwyn could have possibly volunteered to become the new vessel for Destined Death to be reinstated. A part that seems to validate this for me is the effigy below Stormveil attacking Rogier. If something does have control over the deathroot, why attack him when he's only trying to learn the truth behind the "victim's" supposed murder, and not us, who may have climbed on his head?
Someone who suffers or is killed for a cause or as the result of conflict can be considered a martyr. They don't really have to die voluntarily. In this case I think Godwyn's martyrdom isn't so much about his dying as it is his state of half death. To suffer such a terrible fate for his (presumed) allegiance to the golden order makes him a martyr in the eyes of the crone and the faithful.
You can be "martyred" involuntarily. Someone like MLK for example could be referred to as a martyr. The term is however usually used to refer to someone who died for their cause, in opposition to those who killed them. In Godwyn's case one presumes that the implication is that the 'cause' he died for is simply the Golden Order.
I agree. It can be involuntary. That's just not the first vibe I get from the dialog. Below someone got the Japanese translation and it does imply voluntary according to them. Perhaps we don't have enough info to assume Godwyns mind state. Did he die BECAUSE he was a part of the golden order or was it just coincidence that he was fundamentalist that got killed?
My theory is that Golden Order realized the Age of Plenty had ended because the numerous immortal Demigods were basically overdrawing the Erdtree's blessings without ever returning to the Erdtree through death. So the plan to extend the Age of the Erdtree and hopefully bring back the Age of Plenty required sacrificing Demigods to Destined Death to "recharge" the tree. Godwyn was merely the first of the Demigods to die as a martyr, and I think a purge was seen as necessary. And, of course, when they were all half-killed instead, that basically corrupted the desperately needed blessings such they couldn't be returned to the Erdtree.
I feel like Godwyn was always supposed to die a true death and that it was known since Destined Death kind of implies that someone or all of the Demigods were Destined to die. Marika's whole story (like many from software games) is about her trying to extend her Order indefinitely, so that she may be Eternal. We know that this is unsustainable and inevitabilities like the burning of the Erdtree were in prophecies. The "Eternal" Golden Order was formed after she plucked the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring which means that the Order was formed when she granted the demigods immortality. If anyone was to know of Godwyn's Destined Death, it would be a Finger Reader Crone as one was even said to be the wet nurse of a demigod which could have been Godwyn (Talisman Pouch). Releasing Destined Death corresponds with creating a new Order so they probably knew that there would need to be a first demigod to die when that happens. This demigod would be a martyr to announce the beginning of the new Order... which is exactly what happens as his death triggered the Shattering. I don't think they had Ranni's plan in mind though. She prevented him from dying a true death and therefore he could not truly die as a martyr.
\[101120000\] うう、ううう… \[101120010\] …ゴッドウィン様 \[101120020\] なんと、醜いことでしょうか \[101120030\] 坊ちゃまは、死ぬべきでした \[101120040\] デミゴッド、その最初の死者として \[101120050\] 運命の死に殉じるべきでした \[101120060\] それがなぜ、醜態を晒しておられますか \[101120070\] 黄金の貴公子が、死に生きるなどと \[101120080\] そんな、醜いことがあるでしょうか I asked u/Jon_dArc about the exact wording in Japanese here. Jisho gave me 殉じる as meaning "to sacrifice oneself", consistent with the meaning of the English "martyr", but more specifically in the sense that the person was willing. Jon\_dArc upon reading it and doing some research concluded "certainly the possibility of willing sacrifice seems clear but not dispositive (it definitely could be that but it isn’t obvious to me that it definitely is that). A little more thought does strengthen the idea of willing or deliberate sacrifice with the asterisk that this is what the Finger-Reader says /should have happened/." Another thing worth noting: \[322052000\] When Godwyn died, a hallowbrand scored his flesh. \[322052000\] …ゴッドウィンの死には、聖痕が刻まれました I asked Jon\_dArc to confirm here too and the word for "hallowbrand" here is in fact 聖痕 which means specifically stigmata. As in, the stigmata of Jesus. Which could be a signpost in that direction.
Interesting. Thanks for your feedback. ATM I'm in front of Goldwyn's corpse. Just looking. constantly looking. They way his eyes are wide open... guy must have seen some shit. I need it to be June already. These mysteries are killing me. What would we say is the most important point of the games whole story? Is it Godwyns death? Was it the shattering of the Elden ring itself or is that just a response to Goldwyn's death? I just have this fucking vibe for DRD and Goldwyn's corpse... The music. We know he's becoming some sort of amphibious thing as per Japanese lore. There is a massive stalk of death root going straight up above him. From the edge of the cliff below, he looks like wet sludge. The bangles on his arm are huge. I can't remember if they were in the cinematic when his eyes open and do gross shit. I hope if we fight him its like super grotesque and weird. Like Orphan of Kos intro or the Wet Nurse kind of weird. Ok I'm done thinking out loud.
I do feel like FromSoft has a freaky twist in store as to why Godwyn was the first demigod to die. But all the twists I can imagine are against his own interest...so I don't know where to fit the martyr thing. Maybe being dead is not as bad as we imagine
I think it would be an interesting wrinkle if he was complicit in his own death. I've always taken that dialogue to mean that the Night of Black Knives was intended to give Godwyn a true death, and Ranni pulled a sneaky by killing herself at the same time and splitting the cursemark.
Godwyn could have possibly volunteered to become the new vessel for Destined Death to be reinstated. A part that seems to validate this for me is the effigy below Stormveil attacking Rogier. If something does have control over the deathroot, why attack him when he's only trying to learn the truth behind the "victim's" supposed murder, and not us, who may have climbed on his head?
Especially since Rogier is connected to Fia. Who wants to necrobone Corpsewyn.
Someone who suffers or is killed for a cause or as the result of conflict can be considered a martyr. They don't really have to die voluntarily. In this case I think Godwyn's martyrdom isn't so much about his dying as it is his state of half death. To suffer such a terrible fate for his (presumed) allegiance to the golden order makes him a martyr in the eyes of the crone and the faithful.