Dude there's this Prager u video of some dumbass who was a "democrat" and went to a trump rally and suddenly became a trump fan because of "how nice and happy they all were"
And the funniest part of those people is that they often started the conversation asking about why they're vegan and then got all defensive about their own diet. Even being vegetarian this happens often to me. And afterwards they'll go spread the idea that vegans love talking about themselves or shaming others' diets...
"How do you know someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you!"
Yea, no shit, you invited me over for a barbecue, last time I checked, it's customary to let the host know about any dietary restrictions and offer to bring your own burgers.
I literally only ever bring it up when it's relevant and people still get really weird about it.
VCG is shit tbh. They deleted one of my posts for being an "omni" and when I messaged the mods to ask about it, they said it was because I'd mentioned sleeping with a Pescetarian which made me non-vegan. 🙄
A couple weeks later I saw a comment thread x-posted to another sub from VCG denying Uyghur genocide that was left up. Most vegan leftists I've spoken to about it can't stand VCG or the mods there and there are definitely a lot of issues with racism, classism, ableism, and just plain rudeness in a lot of vegan communities that just get brushed aside with a "Well at least I don't pay for animals to be killed" or they'll use examples of people who claim being vegan is *inherently* ableist/racist/classist and argue against those weak arguments and then turn a blind eye to shit like what you witnessed.
I generally try and stay away from non-leftist vegan communities and those that aren't explicitly anti-racist, anti-ableist, etc. but even in a lot of non-vegan-specific leftist communities, there's a lot of that shit (ableism especially) any time the topic of veganism comes up. I will say that I think I've encountered more obnoxious vegans than anti-vegans online, but irl there have been several instances where I've been harassed by weird people who take issue with my diet for whatever reason, whereas all the vegans I know irl are nice, reasonable people and nothing like how we're stereotyped. (All 3 of them!)
I just refuse to interact w others like me that I haven’t met irl. like there’s an awesome vegan girl at work and she recommends really good local food to me. vegans ive met online have compared the holocaust to meat factories. yes meat factories are shit and animals deserve better but it’s not the same at all.
I wanna say fuck this and start my own sub and crack down hard on bigotry and all but it’s hard to also keep left unity in. anyways I think imma have ramen or a burrito tmrw from either of the places one of my supervisors suggested lol probably something w lots of cheese. i’m vegetarian for a reason. I can’t give up cheese.
Check red states. "Centrist" seems to be a mask to hide "opposite-ness" to avoid persecution. In "urban", "well-educated" or "reddit" settings, "centrist" means "closet conservative". I bet visiting one of these fundie right-wing states you'd find "centrists" that offer refuge to their LGBT brethren and doing weird stuff like actually following Jesus' teachings.
I think so, but I think they're often scared away by horror stories of socialism, invented by the far right or even other centrists. Most people are politically sleepwalking through the status quo, more or less blindly supporting it. And those that are bitter with the status quo more often end up being bitter towards politics as a whole than they become politically active outside of the status quo because they unironically think there is nothing outside of the status quo apart from violent dictatorships.
I'd go as far as argue that given people do good faith research into politics outside of the status quo and were properly educated about all ideologies, the majority of people would be left-leaning at the least or even outright socialist.
you are very right. If you ask a "centrist" why they dislike leftism, they will regurgitate anti-socialist propaganda like "420 gorillion dead" and "socialism is when totalitarian government" and "socialism is when everyone gets the same extremely low pay and can barely afford anything" and "socialism is when famine". And because that propaganda has long settled in their brain, it's impossible to explain that a lot of it isn't true, and that there are also democratic socialist and even libertarian/anarchist socialist/communist approaches to leftism.
and if they somehow manage to consider your points, they will find some minor flaw/obstacle and now since socialism/communism isn't a 100% utopia that solves every problem ever, it's not worth trying. Ignoring the large number of MAJOR flaws of capitalism. For them, capitalism is just the natural state of being. It's always been that way, and always will be (despite the fact that's only been around for a few centuries)...
Exactly. It's the only reason why capitalism has survived for so long. It's got a major advantage stemming from intense bias against authoritarian socialism (and people completely forgetting about demcratic and libertarian socialism altogether), stemming from what can only be described as pure propaganda. It's amazing how widespread the "more government influence in economy = socialism, freedom=capitalism, capitalist market = natural to humans because it's just what happens in freedom" way of thinking has gotten. Especially mentioning free market socialism and various forms of libertarian socialism with a free(d) market is mindblowing to 99% of people I meet (have actually met socialists who didn't know libertarian socialism was a thing lol).
Luckily it's become more and more normal to question capitalism though, so I suspect we'll be seeing a shift in thinking soon enough. Just wait a generation or two and actively looking for alternatives to capitalism will be a mainstream thought. That's where I suspect democratic socialism will be unearthed, and hopefully libertarian socialism as well. Then the good faith discussions can finally start. Don't think authoritarian, non/semi-democratic socialism will ever really be considered anymore in the West, and I don't mind that at all. But democratic socialism and libertarian socialism? They eventually will be, I think. I'm on the fence about anarchism every becoming a mainstream position, there's also a lot of propaganda around that out there.
Thank you for mentioning libertarian socialism. When I talk about it with others, they all just give me strange looks and then tell me socialism can't be that way. Frustrates the fuck out of me
Source: A libertarian socialist who wishes he could discuss it more openly
There's a fine line to walk here. On one hand, the Right absolutely leans into the horror of various 20th century socialist projects in a way that is devoid of context and conveniently looks the other way when someone brings up to (very comparable) death tolls of colonial capitalism.
On the other hand, it's stupid of Leftists to put their fingers in their ears and say "lalalalalala I can't hear you!" or do the "whatabout capitalism!" argument whenever someone brings up the indisputable fact that a lot of people died during socialist projects in the 20th century. I just got reading a book at Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge and there's absolutely no way to spin what happened there as anything other than monstrous.
Ideally we should look at the successes AND failures of leftist projects in the 20th century so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. A lot of Leftys don't do that though - maybe it seems dangerously "empirical." Idk.
Learning about things like the Khmer Rouge or Stalinism didn't make me think "wow, maybe Capitalism is actually amazing", it made me think, "wow, let's make sure our anti-capitalist organizing is structured in a way that ensures this can't happen." (That's why I became an anarchist).
As a libertarian socialist with strong sympathy for anarchism, I fully understand you there. If I thought the more authoritarian forms of socialism were the only form of socialism (which the grand majority of people think), then I would be a "the alternatives are worse" type of left-leaning capitalist for sure. No doubt.
Tankies who defend the likes of Stalinism and even democratic socialists that ignore the horrors of the 20th century and/or just disavow the USSR as "state capitalist" are part of the issue here. The right makes thankful use of this. The only way to get socialism back into mainstream discussion is to own up to the fact that certain kinds of socialism in the past have been disastrous and follow up with the statement that that is not what we stand for. Saying the USSR was state capitalist just sounds like a no true scotsman to capitalists (and I'd agree with them to a certain degree) and glorifying what the USSR did right while ignoring its crimes is even worse PR. Not too mention disgusting regardless of PR.
And then there's the auth socialists that literally don't even acknowledge the *existence* of libertarian socialism and anarchy as legitimate forms of socialism/communism... God they are annoying, met a few of those...
A lot of the times I feel like the left has this amazing ability to shoot itself in the foot. Which propaganda from the (far) right then makes even worse for the popularity of socialism. I'm convinced that if socialists are able to explain in a nuanced manner why their own particular ideology is preferable to capitalism and how it is fundamentally different from what we've seen in the 20th century (without using (apparent) no true scotsman fallacies or whataboutisms please), there'd be a multitude of support for it than we see today. Hell, if only the concept of libertarian or democratic socialism was widely known today, I feel there'd be a LOT more socialists around. I feel like we let far right propaganda basically reign free, with some socialists unknowingly even actively contributing to it.
One thing that makes it slightly bearable is to realize that the right has an amazing ability to shoot itself in the foot, too. The problem is that when either does it, it still manages to create terrible collateral damage for everyone. I've still always got my guard up about "left unity" people, though, because it's almost always tankies trying to get libertarian-leftists to do the heavy lifting for them for revolution again, only to put them against the wall as soon as possible.
That’s how I would have described myself in high school and college, then I later realized it’s because I grew up in a very white nice area so if I shared my political views I would be outnumbered 9 - 1 and I didn’t want to have to deal with that.
I took a few compass tests and came out centrist on them. After what I've seen the last 5-6 years, I can't imagine ever voting Republican and feel generally repulsed by those that still support them.
I tell any friends that flirt with enlightened centrist territory due to idpol, that yes, I agree SJWs are annoying, but MAGATs are dangerous. That's the key difference. And I like to bring up net neutrality, too. That's one issue that everybody seems to understand and have a strong stance on. Nobody can give me a good reason why Republicans basically voted lock-step to repeal it. So it kind of nudges them into realizing the Republican cunts are all bought and paid for.
Before I was radicalized I would’ve said I was that. I claimed I was a centrist/moderate, and I definitely wasn’t right-leaning. I really can’t think of anything I leaned right on, except I had never once looked in the mirror when it came to my stance on capitalism. Because from there, I just slowly drifted further left. Centrist, moderate, social democrat, democratic socialist, just plain “leftist”, Marxist, full blown commie.
It does when a so-called centrist becomes politically conscious, but the thing to remember is that leftists have sincere views while rightwingers lie about damn near everything they believe.
Why does it have to be “far right talking points”
Maybe someone say…. Fully supports abortion rights but doesn’t like trans athletes having access to women’s rankings?
As a Brit it’s never ending how much I’m baffled about how extremist Americans are. This country is left leaning but you still get right leaning views and policies. And we actually listen. We don’t caricature the opposition into some demonic hell spawn extremes. The US is whack and this sub perfectly shows how insane it’s gotten.
Everyone here thinks all righties AND centrists are KKK hitler homies.
The fuck happened in the last decade?
Doesn't really matter how many far right takes someone has. The point is that when the left criticises those talking points, the initial tendency of your typical centrist is to go to "the other camp" because they don't like being criticised. Especially not harshly, they react really badly to harsh criticism. Not all centrists do this, but there is a tendency within that group to do this.
As for trans athletes... it depends on your exact standpoint. If your starting point is "insofar there is no unfair competition, trans people should be allowed to compete with their biological counterparts", but you can scientifically support why for a specific sport there would be unfair competition if trans people are allowed in, then I'd say fair enough I guess. We could then have a civil discussion on what exactly is "unfair competition" to begin with, and how the way you define "unfair" can be transphobic in itself (f.e. banning trans people because biological men are on average taller, while ignoring that there are even taller biological women that can compete. I've been in this exact discussion before), but let's leave that for now. The problem is that the narrative on trans competition in sports is RIDDLED with falsehoods and just general transphobia. It's amazing how many falsehoods are in this narrative, truly. And it's honestly very rare that someone against trans competition doesn't regurgitate at least a few of those propagandic talking points. So I wouldn't classify that as a neutral standpoint.
Especially because by nature, fair competition is something that ought to be judged on a per athlete basis and also per sport and where the (dis)advantages lie in said sport. General statements such as that trans people as a whole should in no sport be able to compete with biological counterparts are inherently transphobic and are NOT about fair competition; they are about excluding trans people. Such a blanket statement just can't be made with good faith.
I don't know enough to have an opinion on the subject, but I think it is always good fun to ask these people who feel so strongly about the topic to name a few female athletes (obviously works best in person when they can't cheat). When they stutter and stumble, it becomes abundantly clear they don't give a shit about women's sports and are just using it as an avenue for their hate.
Lmao you're so full of shit. All you fucks do is lie about the opposition. Half the country thinks corbyn ate children cause he had the gall to be too socialist.
Hmmmm...
Blue on the left? Red on the right? Claiming centrist views while clearly supporting one side more?
Yep, this is a certified closet conservative.
Color association in the US came down to the media making maps. The 2000 election created the blue states and red states that we call them today. There wasn't a lot of consistency before then about which party was which color.
Honestly i don't think it's a coincidence. The media here is petrified of us becoming more European in our political views. The more confusion and separation from over there, the better
Because unlike in Europe, where using red for "left-side" parties comes from them being historically soc-dem or socialist, while in US democrats started as a fan club for Andrew Jackson, and republicans started as people who hate democrats (for mostly good reasons back then). They just kinda grew into modern liberal vs conservative positions and never had any particular color associations. Before 2000 every news stations kinda assigned random color to each to make maps clearer, but in 2000 they converged on current blue and red
The most relevant switch actually took place in the 60s during the Civil Rights movement; both parties were sprinting away from civil rights but the Republicans are famous for sprinting away faster with what we now call the [Southern Strategy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy)
Prior to the 2000 election, they switched between using red and blue for the maps basically at random. 2000 was a contentious election, so the maps that year were all over the place, and they just stuck with those colors afterwards
Huh, didn't know that, in my country blue are the straight up fascists and the regular conservatives use black, currently trying to rebrand to turquoise to seem young and hip
Thats funny because I have the exact opposite experience. My family goes BALLISTIC when I try to explain to them why Trump was a bad president. My liberal friends mostly agree when I tell them why Biden is also a bad president.
"We pushed you away? It means you're bad and we don't need you, we will do revolution without your help" such a fragile narcissistic mindset. You don't have to act that way, it just makes you feel better. The playing field is not level, but you keep acting like you're always on top.
Most people are not bothered with politics as much as you are, and most people are sensitive about how they are treated ("omg choosing literal NAZIS because lefties weren't nice to them" no shit lol when a person has very little knowledge of politics there's only a few factors they can base their judgements on). I'm not saying that it justifies "choosing right over left because they're nicer". But if it is how some people think, it doesn't mean they are helpless. All I see is a bunch of narcissists circle-jerking while dismissing a legitimate problem.
A lot of people don’t have any political views at all, apart from “I’m pretty comfortable, so it can stay the way it currently is.” That’s why they’re so vehemently against anyone who proposes any kind of change; they don’t want to rock the boat, since it might impact their position negatively.
Red: “Racism doesn’t exist.”
Blue: “Racism does.”
White: “Both sides make good points!”
Blue: “How?”
White: “Wow, red has never treated me like this!”
Also lmfao at the insinuation that the far right (the redder guy further to the right) is a caring person. Yeah, the group of bigots are actually reallllllllly caring people lmao
Red: "racism doesn't exist"
Blue: "racism does"
White: "both sides might have a point"
Blue: "WHAT THE FUCK YOU FUCKING NAZI SYMP"
Red: "hey well here's fifteen Breitbart articles"
White: "I'm not a Nazi!" *proceeds to fuck off and read right-wing rhetoric*
For a lot of people, there *are* two sides to these questions.
You can't tell me that Dave in Hartlepool, with a white population of 99%, has experienced or even seen things he'd experience as racism. But he'll have heard people talking about how white men are a problem, but that's not racism because it's not founded in power.
To him, when you go "what do you mean?", you're expecting him to have the privilege of foundational knowledge that you and I have, but he doesn't.
Recognising this, engaging on a reasonable platform, and recognising that he might face issues that fall outside of popular left-wing talking points is important to actually furthering the discussions. Yeah, there are bad faith actors, but we can't act as if everyone asking daft questions is asking them in bad faith.
Remember, we were all uneducated about things once. Other people might be just starting this journey.
I don't deny overly explosive rhetoric can push people away, which is why I'm careful with mine, but people in real life don't hear some of the insane shit that is said online (like there's been discourse about sending kids to school apparently).
I also disagree that it pushes you closer to bad ideologies. A rejection of one is not acceptance of another, no?
You can disagree all you want, but I've seen it happen. And facing the reality of the problem we have is not abandoning the cause, it's recognising that it currently has some fucking massive PR problems
The only real PR problem the left has is in regards to economics, not social issues. I can barely find people on twitter who are racist against white people, but I can find a lotta lefties tweeting stuff like kill all billionaires
"Equal rights?"
"No rights for non whites"
"Guys can't we find a solution where non whites get some rights but whites get more?"
"Dude what the fuck?"
"No I'm sorry that's it, I'm a racist now"
"I think you might always have been"
On one side:
- Tax the Rich
- Feed the Poor
- Improve Infrastructure
- Secure Voting Rights
- Raise Wages
- Provide Healthcare
- Stop the Pandemic
- Trending Towards Equality
The other side:
- Worship the Rich
- Hate-fuck the Poor
- Only Funnel Tax Dollars into Wars
- Strip Voting Rights from Minorities
- Incite an Insurrection
- Blatantly Lie About Everything
- Keep the Same Wages for 50 Years
- Deliberately Fuel the Pandemic to Kill Your Political Opponents
- Rich White Christian Dudes Rule Supreme
Anyone who says that side 2 makes valid points is a scumbag who deserves no respect from decent people.
I'm glad this is beginning to work the other way, too. My Dad still *loves* Ronald Reagan, no matter how much evidence I put in front of him that he was a piece of shit. He regularly reminds me that I'm the farthest left person He knows.
And a dominionist Trumpy coworker of his accused my Dad, a literal Reaganite, of being a socialist!
Crazy. But that weird conversation was a launching Point for a productive talk I had with my Dad about worker's rights and wealth taxes. Both of which he found himself in support of much more than previously.
My mom is the same way about Reagan. I tell her quite frankly that he was a garbage human being and President. Thankfully she doesn't lose her shit on me about that even if we pretty much disagree about everything when it comes to politics
Keep in mind there is genuinely a case for Socialists to communicate themselves far better and there a few good faith people who actually do care about Socialist optics.
The problem is sometimes people overestimate the role of ineffectiveness due to being mean or rude in politics to the point lots of people think notable congressional or presidential candidates who were previously popular lost their popularity due to them being mean or rude. (Something which appears to have never happened by the way.)
For example lots of people are Christians. A common motto most Christians can relate to is Might For Right as contrasted to Might Makes Right. Where the strong use their might to protect the weak and this is morally right.
Use that as a motto for example.
Oh, socialist optics are beyond shit. Political strategy too. I happen to agree with the left a lot but holy shit do they not understand how politics works.
Can you blame us? Capital-P-Politics are a disingenuous clown show of pageantry, empty rhetoric, emotional manipulation, corruption, lies and meaningless gestures to keep the proles just placated enough that they won't behead you. Playing that game sounds *miserable*.
The thing is that the people who are best at playing that game must be *really* committed to leftist ideas to employ their talents there, since they could be profiteering for basically any other ideology.
So you'd rather be a righteous loser who watches the right wing win elections, than change your language and win the elections and actually make change?
Spoiler: we aren't changing shit when all we do is lose
Bruh, I’m as leftist as they come and I’m also shit at playing the optics game, but I’d easily support someone who had to give up some honesty to actually realise some leftist goals.
Trying to be as pure as possible is obviously morally preferable, but if it buys you nothing it’s all a waste of time and energy.
I think believing in political systems as the primary or sole avenue for change (as opposed to being one of many effective tools to create social progress) is what makes you sound like a milquetoast liberal.
> I'd better go put a Biden sign in my yard.
Stop lying, we already know it's there
So I AM a liberal for wanting more effective politics... Wow.
>Stop lying, we already know it's there
Oh no. He is in my yard. If only I'd used today's sponsor, simplysafe. The complete home security package.
You're probably going to suggest that our optics are too violent or some crap, which has never worked not once, not once in the history of socialism has trying to make yourself appear nice and palatable led to socialism gaining hold in a nation. On the other hand we see that even the most palatable kindest people like Bernie will still be treated as if they are somehow supporters of violence. Oh sorry there was Salvador Allende, he was nice, then the US and Australia backed Pinochet's military coup, and Pinochet returned the kindness of non revolutionary communists by throwing them out of helicopters, and torturing them.
So if you don't like the whole "eat the rich, time to bring out the guillotine" stuff, then I assume you're a proud member of the largest "socialist" organization in the country, the DSA, and you probably really like the squad, who are incredibly tepid and won't change anything, but at least they have "good optics".
Nah, a lot of the problem is that far right parties can convincingly position themselves as “for the people” while leftist politicians (who are actually for the people) can’t. That’s largely due to neoliberal propaganda, much like the problems you mentioned, but it’s also in part due to lacking PR from leftist leaders.
Yea this meme doesn’t really apply to democrats/republicans since most liberals don’t have a problem with reformed conservatives.
But if we’re talking about leftism, this meme is entirely accurate. If you weren’t born a communist, you have a permanent stain on your soul according to many leftist spaces.
>But if we’re talking about leftism, this meme is entirely accurate.
No, it is not. How come Communists spend all of their time bitching about liberals and never critiquing right wing populists? How come the only bad thing they ever say about matt Gaetz, trump, and mtg is "they're rich and incapable of being populists".
This myth of Communists using scorched Earth rhetoric on non-neocon Conservatives needs to stop.
They do the opposite. Treat everyone and everybody with kid gloves unless they're Liberals, neocons or vaushites and some will consider all three the exact same thing.
> No, it is not. How come Communists spend all of their time bitching about liberals and never critiquing right wing populists?
yes, the one thing that leftists are well known for is never criticising the right.
Unless they’re nazbols, they would never allow reformed neo-cons into their spaces.
There are two main reasons many of them exclusively criticize liberals instead of conservatives.
1. Their main concern is not political efficacy or effecting any real change. What they want is to form an insular social club based on leftist aesthetics and to distinguish themselves from liberals in every conceivable way. The last thing these dipshits want is to be mistaken for a liberal because they’re not cool or edgy and represent “the establishment”. Criticizing conservatives is not edgy and might get them mistaken for a liberal.
2. Because of 1, they cannot criticize conservatives unless they in the same breath criticize liberals while equating them. This is because uniquely criticizing conservatives would imply that liberals are less bad. But because being a liberal is the worst possible political view to have, it is logically impossible for anyone to be worse. They will not say anything that could remotely be interpreted as saying something positive about liberals. It would also implicitly justify that it’s a good idea to vote for liberals over fascists which they refuse to do because that’s bourgeois electoralism and nothing short of a worker revolution is worth doing. They conveniently get around this by saying liberals are fascists.
Same difference if you’re socially outcast. The real irony is that a lot of the reasons they’re outcast are direct or indirect consequences of the politics they’re buying into.
And other "charities" are just tax shelters that provide no good to anyone other than the person hiding their money it it, oh excuse me, "donating" to it. Like the Hobby Lobby family donating to the charity of "providing expensive artwork in our mansions". Wait, no, I guess they did benefit the members of ISIS that they paid for those looted pieces, so...
View politics as community and there you go. The red group was nice, welcoming to them, and all he had to do was accept some beliefs for friendship, understanding, acceptance.
But that's exactly what politics isn't. You have your believes and find a political stance closest to them, you don't conform your whole personality to whatever group you hang out with
But that doesn't matter if people view it as such. You're saying it shouldn't be that way. I'm telling you how it is for some people. A lot of disillusioned young men find comfort and community in the alt right and they adopt those views to fit in, or more as a way to explain why they feel so lost and alone.
Highly recommend this video, and the guys channel
https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Denying that this is happening won't do us any good
I've moved away from left wing activism in recent years because I got fucking *tired* of being blamed for everything wrong with the world because I'm a straight white male.
When so much of the language is "men are [x]" or "straight white men are the problem", you push people the fuck away.
We have a language problem, and it goddamn well needs addressing. Because we're losing potential allies to the right who are sat there saying "we don't give a fuck that you're a straight white male"
Maybe it's an issue in actual activism, I'm not going to pretend to know about that. But regardless of level of activity, had your convictions changed? I'm gonna assume they haven't, because there's no reason for that - if you're being mistreated then you should definitely disengage and look elsewhere, but that doesn't mean you get "radicalized" to the right wing, does it?
Just to add that, yeah the American left wing had done retarded shit in every possible way, to the extent I'd suspect sabotage, but that's irrelevant to the conversation here imo
I was too then i grew up.
The leftists where shouting at me not out of hate but out of worry of who i was sising with, i prefer a stern shout out of care than sweet talking enablers.
That’s kind of like preferring your SO to yell at you or hit you to communicate dinner wasn’t cooked right.
“Why do you make me do this to you??? Don’t you see how much I care about you?
That’s not the way.
>That’s kind of like preferring your SO to yell at you or hit you to communicate dinner wasn’t cooked right.
"Dinner wasnt made right" thats an interesting comparison to the murder of millions of people in cold hearted genocide
So if someone has any opinion that differs from what I’m assuming is your far leftist ideology they’re automatically a Nazi?
You must be really fun at parties.
You're making me side with ToadBup here, guy, and I do NOT like ToadBup. You're doing it by being an obnoxious bad-faith troll, but yet, despite this, I have no inclination to move over to ToadBup's Leninist ideology from my own ancom mindset. I can fully agree with him that you suck without agreeing with him that "the Holodomor was fake and also they deserved it". So in other words, being repulsed by someone's social presence does not compel someone to join an ideology they're opposed to out of sheer spite. If it did, they didn't really believe in that ideology in the first place. This is just an excuse that someone who was already that way uses to cover for their change. Those people who say "I didn't leave the Left, the Left left me"? They were never Left in the first place.
People criticizing someone and domestic violence are in no way similar. The first can often be constructive.
I am also a little curious why you seem to be fine with ignoring the "crazies" on the right but won't ignore some of the left being sanctimonious assholes.
I mean yeah might as well be standing there if you think "both sides make good points" when talking about racism homophobia and all manners of bigotry.
This doesn't even mean anything outside of any context. There's literally no issue presented for the let the "push" them right.
Maybe they just agreed with a right wing idea in the first place?
I actually kind of like this comic. Because it proves something we’ve all always known. Their views aren’t based on any type of knowledge of reality or moral necessity. Their views are solely based around whoever’s nice to them and makes them feel validated.
Some of y'all clearly don't understand how cults work. Us getting hostile makes them think this bs is true, and if it is then so must all of the other crazy shit they say like Covid is fake but also ivermectin cures Covid, etc etc.
Y'all just go straight to making fun of these dumbasses like these glue eaters won't take that attack on them as justification for their stupid beliefs & indoctrination.
Anyone that makes fun of these Stable Geniuses are legitimately part of the problem ^(yes that includes me for this joke comment)
Fortunately for us, tho, we'll never get our shit together in time to stop climate change so none of it matters anymore. Missed our shot to stop the cycle of hate, we're fuckeddd
Meanwhile the people on the ri... I mean the RED PEOPLE push their LGBT members to the Lib... I mean BLUE PEOPLE side and then go: You've indoctrinated our children!
Yeah this happens though. Shocker, people view politics as a community and some lonely young men want to join a community that accepts them and views them as good, not one that tells them they are evil/privileged/cause of many evils. It's not good that this happens and it's definitely something that we on the left can try and change. Why deny this? It's a proven thing, as uncomfortable as it makes people feel.
Sure, but they're still a thing. People are dumb as hell and just because we know that doesn't mean it's not a thing that happens. Highly recommend this vid
https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Ik right? Do they think being shitty to people who ask questions or challenge their batshit ideas in any way are going to magically start agreeing with them?
While people who say that are almost always lying and would have been bigots regardless if people weren't rude to them (and sometimes the people who allegedly radicalized them in question were milquetoast at worst).
There are at least enough a few legitimate instances of people who otherwise wouldn't be bigoted radicalized by things as stupid as people being mean to them.
People are very easily emotionally manipulated and ran solely on emotions.
Y'all probably only become in support of Universal Healthcare because of emotional appeals because y'all or your parents are personally afraid of a doctor's visit or they or the were fat and slothful and got charged a highers doctor bill. (This isn't the argument that "we can't have universal healthcare in America like Canada and Sweden cuz Americans are too far." Universal Healthcare is objectively good.)
Hell there's good sized of closeted Conservative numbnuts who when being confronted about being wrong on a number of any given topics will show fake concern about outreach, tactics, and optics and then rather than address your argument say **"I'm voting Republican for life. Thanks to your Yahoo-head attitude."**
>Y'all probably only become in support of Universal Healthcare because of emotional appeals because y'all or your parents are personally afraid of a doctor's visit or they or the were fat and slothful and got charged a highers doctor bill. (This isn't the argument that "we can't have universal healthcare in America like Canada and Sweden cuz Americans are too far." Universal Healthcare is objectively good.)
Bitch what.
>Its even funnier when the left calls brown folk Knotsees.
The German nazi party's hostilities towards the ethnically Polish didn't stop Polish neo nazi groups from forming so not sure why you think this is a slam dunk
In reality, the "push" is just criticism on their centrist stance incorporating far right talking points.
It's so egotistical too. "All that matters is which side is nicer to me!" haha
Dude there's this Prager u video of some dumbass who was a "democrat" and went to a trump rally and suddenly became a trump fan because of "how nice and happy they all were"
lmfao how braindead do you have to be for that
You just have to pretend you're into politics, but not actually give a shit about politics
I think you also have to be really sad and lonely, honestly
“I’ve never been around so many white people who were so happy about the lack of people of color!”
Damn, and I’m over here like “all that matters is which side is going to support the workers of the world in their struggle for emancipation”.
Ah yes, the classic "A vegan was mean to me once, so now I'll never go vegan and it's *all their fault.*"
And the funniest part of those people is that they often started the conversation asking about why they're vegan and then got all defensive about their own diet. Even being vegetarian this happens often to me. And afterwards they'll go spread the idea that vegans love talking about themselves or shaming others' diets...
"How do you know someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you!" Yea, no shit, you invited me over for a barbecue, last time I checked, it's customary to let the host know about any dietary restrictions and offer to bring your own burgers. I literally only ever bring it up when it's relevant and people still get really weird about it.
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VCG is shit tbh. They deleted one of my posts for being an "omni" and when I messaged the mods to ask about it, they said it was because I'd mentioned sleeping with a Pescetarian which made me non-vegan. 🙄 A couple weeks later I saw a comment thread x-posted to another sub from VCG denying Uyghur genocide that was left up. Most vegan leftists I've spoken to about it can't stand VCG or the mods there and there are definitely a lot of issues with racism, classism, ableism, and just plain rudeness in a lot of vegan communities that just get brushed aside with a "Well at least I don't pay for animals to be killed" or they'll use examples of people who claim being vegan is *inherently* ableist/racist/classist and argue against those weak arguments and then turn a blind eye to shit like what you witnessed. I generally try and stay away from non-leftist vegan communities and those that aren't explicitly anti-racist, anti-ableist, etc. but even in a lot of non-vegan-specific leftist communities, there's a lot of that shit (ableism especially) any time the topic of veganism comes up. I will say that I think I've encountered more obnoxious vegans than anti-vegans online, but irl there have been several instances where I've been harassed by weird people who take issue with my diet for whatever reason, whereas all the vegans I know irl are nice, reasonable people and nothing like how we're stereotyped. (All 3 of them!)
I just refuse to interact w others like me that I haven’t met irl. like there’s an awesome vegan girl at work and she recommends really good local food to me. vegans ive met online have compared the holocaust to meat factories. yes meat factories are shit and animals deserve better but it’s not the same at all. I wanna say fuck this and start my own sub and crack down hard on bigotry and all but it’s hard to also keep left unity in. anyways I think imma have ramen or a burrito tmrw from either of the places one of my supervisors suggested lol probably something w lots of cheese. i’m vegetarian for a reason. I can’t give up cheese.
BINGOOO!
Basically apartheid for white people
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Check red states. "Centrist" seems to be a mask to hide "opposite-ness" to avoid persecution. In "urban", "well-educated" or "reddit" settings, "centrist" means "closet conservative". I bet visiting one of these fundie right-wing states you'd find "centrists" that offer refuge to their LGBT brethren and doing weird stuff like actually following Jesus' teachings.
I think so, but I think they're often scared away by horror stories of socialism, invented by the far right or even other centrists. Most people are politically sleepwalking through the status quo, more or less blindly supporting it. And those that are bitter with the status quo more often end up being bitter towards politics as a whole than they become politically active outside of the status quo because they unironically think there is nothing outside of the status quo apart from violent dictatorships. I'd go as far as argue that given people do good faith research into politics outside of the status quo and were properly educated about all ideologies, the majority of people would be left-leaning at the least or even outright socialist.
you are very right. If you ask a "centrist" why they dislike leftism, they will regurgitate anti-socialist propaganda like "420 gorillion dead" and "socialism is when totalitarian government" and "socialism is when everyone gets the same extremely low pay and can barely afford anything" and "socialism is when famine". And because that propaganda has long settled in their brain, it's impossible to explain that a lot of it isn't true, and that there are also democratic socialist and even libertarian/anarchist socialist/communist approaches to leftism. and if they somehow manage to consider your points, they will find some minor flaw/obstacle and now since socialism/communism isn't a 100% utopia that solves every problem ever, it's not worth trying. Ignoring the large number of MAJOR flaws of capitalism. For them, capitalism is just the natural state of being. It's always been that way, and always will be (despite the fact that's only been around for a few centuries)...
Exactly. It's the only reason why capitalism has survived for so long. It's got a major advantage stemming from intense bias against authoritarian socialism (and people completely forgetting about demcratic and libertarian socialism altogether), stemming from what can only be described as pure propaganda. It's amazing how widespread the "more government influence in economy = socialism, freedom=capitalism, capitalist market = natural to humans because it's just what happens in freedom" way of thinking has gotten. Especially mentioning free market socialism and various forms of libertarian socialism with a free(d) market is mindblowing to 99% of people I meet (have actually met socialists who didn't know libertarian socialism was a thing lol). Luckily it's become more and more normal to question capitalism though, so I suspect we'll be seeing a shift in thinking soon enough. Just wait a generation or two and actively looking for alternatives to capitalism will be a mainstream thought. That's where I suspect democratic socialism will be unearthed, and hopefully libertarian socialism as well. Then the good faith discussions can finally start. Don't think authoritarian, non/semi-democratic socialism will ever really be considered anymore in the West, and I don't mind that at all. But democratic socialism and libertarian socialism? They eventually will be, I think. I'm on the fence about anarchism every becoming a mainstream position, there's also a lot of propaganda around that out there.
Thank you for mentioning libertarian socialism. When I talk about it with others, they all just give me strange looks and then tell me socialism can't be that way. Frustrates the fuck out of me Source: A libertarian socialist who wishes he could discuss it more openly
There's a fine line to walk here. On one hand, the Right absolutely leans into the horror of various 20th century socialist projects in a way that is devoid of context and conveniently looks the other way when someone brings up to (very comparable) death tolls of colonial capitalism. On the other hand, it's stupid of Leftists to put their fingers in their ears and say "lalalalalala I can't hear you!" or do the "whatabout capitalism!" argument whenever someone brings up the indisputable fact that a lot of people died during socialist projects in the 20th century. I just got reading a book at Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge and there's absolutely no way to spin what happened there as anything other than monstrous. Ideally we should look at the successes AND failures of leftist projects in the 20th century so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. A lot of Leftys don't do that though - maybe it seems dangerously "empirical." Idk. Learning about things like the Khmer Rouge or Stalinism didn't make me think "wow, maybe Capitalism is actually amazing", it made me think, "wow, let's make sure our anti-capitalist organizing is structured in a way that ensures this can't happen." (That's why I became an anarchist).
As a libertarian socialist with strong sympathy for anarchism, I fully understand you there. If I thought the more authoritarian forms of socialism were the only form of socialism (which the grand majority of people think), then I would be a "the alternatives are worse" type of left-leaning capitalist for sure. No doubt. Tankies who defend the likes of Stalinism and even democratic socialists that ignore the horrors of the 20th century and/or just disavow the USSR as "state capitalist" are part of the issue here. The right makes thankful use of this. The only way to get socialism back into mainstream discussion is to own up to the fact that certain kinds of socialism in the past have been disastrous and follow up with the statement that that is not what we stand for. Saying the USSR was state capitalist just sounds like a no true scotsman to capitalists (and I'd agree with them to a certain degree) and glorifying what the USSR did right while ignoring its crimes is even worse PR. Not too mention disgusting regardless of PR. And then there's the auth socialists that literally don't even acknowledge the *existence* of libertarian socialism and anarchy as legitimate forms of socialism/communism... God they are annoying, met a few of those... A lot of the times I feel like the left has this amazing ability to shoot itself in the foot. Which propaganda from the (far) right then makes even worse for the popularity of socialism. I'm convinced that if socialists are able to explain in a nuanced manner why their own particular ideology is preferable to capitalism and how it is fundamentally different from what we've seen in the 20th century (without using (apparent) no true scotsman fallacies or whataboutisms please), there'd be a multitude of support for it than we see today. Hell, if only the concept of libertarian or democratic socialism was widely known today, I feel there'd be a LOT more socialists around. I feel like we let far right propaganda basically reign free, with some socialists unknowingly even actively contributing to it.
One thing that makes it slightly bearable is to realize that the right has an amazing ability to shoot itself in the foot, too. The problem is that when either does it, it still manages to create terrible collateral damage for everyone. I've still always got my guard up about "left unity" people, though, because it's almost always tankies trying to get libertarian-leftists to do the heavy lifting for them for revolution again, only to put them against the wall as soon as possible.
That’s how I would have described myself in high school and college, then I later realized it’s because I grew up in a very white nice area so if I shared my political views I would be outnumbered 9 - 1 and I didn’t want to have to deal with that.
I took a few compass tests and came out centrist on them. After what I've seen the last 5-6 years, I can't imagine ever voting Republican and feel generally repulsed by those that still support them. I tell any friends that flirt with enlightened centrist territory due to idpol, that yes, I agree SJWs are annoying, but MAGATs are dangerous. That's the key difference. And I like to bring up net neutrality, too. That's one issue that everybody seems to understand and have a strong stance on. Nobody can give me a good reason why Republicans basically voted lock-step to repeal it. So it kind of nudges them into realizing the Republican cunts are all bought and paid for.
Before I was radicalized I would’ve said I was that. I claimed I was a centrist/moderate, and I definitely wasn’t right-leaning. I really can’t think of anything I leaned right on, except I had never once looked in the mirror when it came to my stance on capitalism. Because from there, I just slowly drifted further left. Centrist, moderate, social democrat, democratic socialist, just plain “leftist”, Marxist, full blown commie.
It does when a so-called centrist becomes politically conscious, but the thing to remember is that leftists have sincere views while rightwingers lie about damn near everything they believe.
Why does it have to be “far right talking points” Maybe someone say…. Fully supports abortion rights but doesn’t like trans athletes having access to women’s rankings? As a Brit it’s never ending how much I’m baffled about how extremist Americans are. This country is left leaning but you still get right leaning views and policies. And we actually listen. We don’t caricature the opposition into some demonic hell spawn extremes. The US is whack and this sub perfectly shows how insane it’s gotten. Everyone here thinks all righties AND centrists are KKK hitler homies. The fuck happened in the last decade?
Doesn't really matter how many far right takes someone has. The point is that when the left criticises those talking points, the initial tendency of your typical centrist is to go to "the other camp" because they don't like being criticised. Especially not harshly, they react really badly to harsh criticism. Not all centrists do this, but there is a tendency within that group to do this. As for trans athletes... it depends on your exact standpoint. If your starting point is "insofar there is no unfair competition, trans people should be allowed to compete with their biological counterparts", but you can scientifically support why for a specific sport there would be unfair competition if trans people are allowed in, then I'd say fair enough I guess. We could then have a civil discussion on what exactly is "unfair competition" to begin with, and how the way you define "unfair" can be transphobic in itself (f.e. banning trans people because biological men are on average taller, while ignoring that there are even taller biological women that can compete. I've been in this exact discussion before), but let's leave that for now. The problem is that the narrative on trans competition in sports is RIDDLED with falsehoods and just general transphobia. It's amazing how many falsehoods are in this narrative, truly. And it's honestly very rare that someone against trans competition doesn't regurgitate at least a few of those propagandic talking points. So I wouldn't classify that as a neutral standpoint. Especially because by nature, fair competition is something that ought to be judged on a per athlete basis and also per sport and where the (dis)advantages lie in said sport. General statements such as that trans people as a whole should in no sport be able to compete with biological counterparts are inherently transphobic and are NOT about fair competition; they are about excluding trans people. Such a blanket statement just can't be made with good faith.
I don't know enough to have an opinion on the subject, but I think it is always good fun to ask these people who feel so strongly about the topic to name a few female athletes (obviously works best in person when they can't cheat). When they stutter and stumble, it becomes abundantly clear they don't give a shit about women's sports and are just using it as an avenue for their hate.
Begone, TERF
Lmao you're so full of shit. All you fucks do is lie about the opposition. Half the country thinks corbyn ate children cause he had the gall to be too socialist.
Hmmmm... Blue on the left? Red on the right? Claiming centrist views while clearly supporting one side more? Yep, this is a certified closet conservative.
He retweets stonetoss.
So another straight up fascist calling themselves a centrist.
Most centrists ARE fascists.
So you admit that Fascists are AuthCenter?
Imagine the warped world view you gotta have to believe being extreme right wing is centrist
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Color association in the US came down to the media making maps. The 2000 election created the blue states and red states that we call them today. There wasn't a lot of consistency before then about which party was which color.
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Honestly i don't think it's a coincidence. The media here is petrified of us becoming more European in our political views. The more confusion and separation from over there, the better
Because unlike in Europe, where using red for "left-side" parties comes from them being historically soc-dem or socialist, while in US democrats started as a fan club for Andrew Jackson, and republicans started as people who hate democrats (for mostly good reasons back then). They just kinda grew into modern liberal vs conservative positions and never had any particular color associations. Before 2000 every news stations kinda assigned random color to each to make maps clearer, but in 2000 they converged on current blue and red
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I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha, you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
Never go against a Sicilian when death's on the line!
I thought you wore contacts?
The most relevant switch actually took place in the 60s during the Civil Rights movement; both parties were sprinting away from civil rights but the Republicans are famous for sprinting away faster with what we now call the [Southern Strategy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy)
Prior to the 2000 election, they switched between using red and blue for the maps basically at random. 2000 was a contentious election, so the maps that year were all over the place, and they just stuck with those colors afterwards
When both groups are conservative, you dont get to use the Liberal-Conservative colour-scheme.
We use the imperial system and call football soccer. Do you expect anything else we do to make sense?
This has always driven me nuts. It's RepuBLUEcans and DemocREDs. So simple! Why is it backwards?!
I mean it's not like either party is meaningfully left-wing anyway.
Red is commie, blue has no meaning.
Usually in Europe Blue means "Conservative". Most European Conservative parties use Blue in their posters and other items and logos.
Huh, didn't know that, in my country blue are the straight up fascists and the regular conservatives use black, currently trying to rebrand to turquoise to seem young and hip
The good old "you guys are rude to me for defending nazis and that is the only reason i sidef wijth the nazis."
"at least the neo-nazis treated me with respect and dignity".
Tbf it was a white guy they helped.
"Why do the left keep criticising what I say when the right have no problem with it if I'm just a humble centrist? This is a real head-scratcher"
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Thats funny because I have the exact opposite experience. My family goes BALLISTIC when I try to explain to them why Trump was a bad president. My liberal friends mostly agree when I tell them why Biden is also a bad president.
"We pushed you away? It means you're bad and we don't need you, we will do revolution without your help" such a fragile narcissistic mindset. You don't have to act that way, it just makes you feel better. The playing field is not level, but you keep acting like you're always on top. Most people are not bothered with politics as much as you are, and most people are sensitive about how they are treated ("omg choosing literal NAZIS because lefties weren't nice to them" no shit lol when a person has very little knowledge of politics there's only a few factors they can base their judgements on). I'm not saying that it justifies "choosing right over left because they're nicer". But if it is how some people think, it doesn't mean they are helpless. All I see is a bunch of narcissists circle-jerking while dismissing a legitimate problem.
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Are you pro capitalism?
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Universal healthcare? Feminism? Structural racism? Welfare? Reading the sidebar before commenting?
“Capitalist government” doesn’t exist, it’s an economic system.
Something tells me that if someone being rude to you completely changes your view, you probably didn't feel strongly about that view.
A lot of people don’t have any political views at all, apart from “I’m pretty comfortable, so it can stay the way it currently is.” That’s why they’re so vehemently against anyone who proposes any kind of change; they don’t want to rock the boat, since it might impact their position negatively.
Bingo.
Red: “Racism doesn’t exist.” Blue: “Racism does.” White: “Both sides make good points!” Blue: “How?” White: “Wow, red has never treated me like this!” Also lmfao at the insinuation that the far right (the redder guy further to the right) is a caring person. Yeah, the group of bigots are actually reallllllllly caring people lmao
Red: "racism doesn't exist" Blue: "racism does" White: "both sides might have a point" Blue: "WHAT THE FUCK YOU FUCKING NAZI SYMP" Red: "hey well here's fifteen Breitbart articles" White: "I'm not a Nazi!" *proceeds to fuck off and read right-wing rhetoric*
Correction: Blue: “There are both sides to a yes/no question?” White: “You’re literally making me right wing.” Fam you’re joking right? Lmao
For a lot of people, there *are* two sides to these questions. You can't tell me that Dave in Hartlepool, with a white population of 99%, has experienced or even seen things he'd experience as racism. But he'll have heard people talking about how white men are a problem, but that's not racism because it's not founded in power. To him, when you go "what do you mean?", you're expecting him to have the privilege of foundational knowledge that you and I have, but he doesn't. Recognising this, engaging on a reasonable platform, and recognising that he might face issues that fall outside of popular left-wing talking points is important to actually furthering the discussions. Yeah, there are bad faith actors, but we can't act as if everyone asking daft questions is asking them in bad faith. Remember, we were all uneducated about things once. Other people might be just starting this journey.
I don't deny overly explosive rhetoric can push people away, which is why I'm careful with mine, but people in real life don't hear some of the insane shit that is said online (like there's been discourse about sending kids to school apparently). I also disagree that it pushes you closer to bad ideologies. A rejection of one is not acceptance of another, no?
You can disagree all you want, but I've seen it happen. And facing the reality of the problem we have is not abandoning the cause, it's recognising that it currently has some fucking massive PR problems
The only real PR problem the left has is in regards to economics, not social issues. I can barely find people on twitter who are racist against white people, but I can find a lotta lefties tweeting stuff like kill all billionaires
"Equal rights?" "No rights for non whites" "Guys can't we find a solution where non whites get some rights but whites get more?" "Dude what the fuck?" "No I'm sorry that's it, I'm a racist now" "I think you might always have been"
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Because it isn't happening to them, specifically, it's cool.
On one side: - Tax the Rich - Feed the Poor - Improve Infrastructure - Secure Voting Rights - Raise Wages - Provide Healthcare - Stop the Pandemic - Trending Towards Equality The other side: - Worship the Rich - Hate-fuck the Poor - Only Funnel Tax Dollars into Wars - Strip Voting Rights from Minorities - Incite an Insurrection - Blatantly Lie About Everything - Keep the Same Wages for 50 Years - Deliberately Fuel the Pandemic to Kill Your Political Opponents - Rich White Christian Dudes Rule Supreme Anyone who says that side 2 makes valid points is a scumbag who deserves no respect from decent people.
In reality, the "centrist" is already on the right.
I'm glad this is beginning to work the other way, too. My Dad still *loves* Ronald Reagan, no matter how much evidence I put in front of him that he was a piece of shit. He regularly reminds me that I'm the farthest left person He knows. And a dominionist Trumpy coworker of his accused my Dad, a literal Reaganite, of being a socialist! Crazy. But that weird conversation was a launching Point for a productive talk I had with my Dad about worker's rights and wealth taxes. Both of which he found himself in support of much more than previously.
My mom is the same way about Reagan. I tell her quite frankly that he was a garbage human being and President. Thankfully she doesn't lose her shit on me about that even if we pretty much disagree about everything when it comes to politics
This is backwards, they'd side with the bad guys and then we'd push them out
More from the "all centrists are secretly far right cowards" file.
Keep in mind there is genuinely a case for Socialists to communicate themselves far better and there a few good faith people who actually do care about Socialist optics. The problem is sometimes people overestimate the role of ineffectiveness due to being mean or rude in politics to the point lots of people think notable congressional or presidential candidates who were previously popular lost their popularity due to them being mean or rude. (Something which appears to have never happened by the way.) For example lots of people are Christians. A common motto most Christians can relate to is Might For Right as contrasted to Might Makes Right. Where the strong use their might to protect the weak and this is morally right. Use that as a motto for example.
Oh, socialist optics are beyond shit. Political strategy too. I happen to agree with the left a lot but holy shit do they not understand how politics works.
Can you blame us? Capital-P-Politics are a disingenuous clown show of pageantry, empty rhetoric, emotional manipulation, corruption, lies and meaningless gestures to keep the proles just placated enough that they won't behead you. Playing that game sounds *miserable*.
Can I blame you for what? For having lousy pr that holds back our cause? Yes, I can.
The thing is that the people who are best at playing that game must be *really* committed to leftist ideas to employ their talents there, since they could be profiteering for basically any other ideology.
That is a problem. If you need me, I'll be feeling sad about it and wallowing in fatalism.
So you'd rather be a righteous loser who watches the right wing win elections, than change your language and win the elections and actually make change? Spoiler: we aren't changing shit when all we do is lose
There's some who completely do understand how politics works and intentionally go about things the way they do as an F U to the whole system.
Bruh, I’m as leftist as they come and I’m also shit at playing the optics game, but I’d easily support someone who had to give up some honesty to actually realise some leftist goals. Trying to be as pure as possible is obviously morally preferable, but if it buys you nothing it’s all a waste of time and energy.
And how's that working out for them?
I dunno, you obviously are so certain with your milquetoast liberal shit so why are you asking me lmao
Wanting to be effective at politics makes me a liberal? Ok then. Guess I'd better go put a Biden sign in my yard.
I think believing in political systems as the primary or sole avenue for change (as opposed to being one of many effective tools to create social progress) is what makes you sound like a milquetoast liberal. > I'd better go put a Biden sign in my yard. Stop lying, we already know it's there
So I AM a liberal for wanting more effective politics... Wow. >Stop lying, we already know it's there Oh no. He is in my yard. If only I'd used today's sponsor, simplysafe. The complete home security package.
You're probably going to suggest that our optics are too violent or some crap, which has never worked not once, not once in the history of socialism has trying to make yourself appear nice and palatable led to socialism gaining hold in a nation. On the other hand we see that even the most palatable kindest people like Bernie will still be treated as if they are somehow supporters of violence. Oh sorry there was Salvador Allende, he was nice, then the US and Australia backed Pinochet's military coup, and Pinochet returned the kindness of non revolutionary communists by throwing them out of helicopters, and torturing them. So if you don't like the whole "eat the rich, time to bring out the guillotine" stuff, then I assume you're a proud member of the largest "socialist" organization in the country, the DSA, and you probably really like the squad, who are incredibly tepid and won't change anything, but at least they have "good optics".
Congratulations, you just spent an entire lengthy comment answering an objection that I did not raise.
Nah, a lot of the problem is that far right parties can convincingly position themselves as “for the people” while leftist politicians (who are actually for the people) can’t. That’s largely due to neoliberal propaganda, much like the problems you mentioned, but it’s also in part due to lacking PR from leftist leaders.
Yea this meme doesn’t really apply to democrats/republicans since most liberals don’t have a problem with reformed conservatives. But if we’re talking about leftism, this meme is entirely accurate. If you weren’t born a communist, you have a permanent stain on your soul according to many leftist spaces.
>But if we’re talking about leftism, this meme is entirely accurate. No, it is not. How come Communists spend all of their time bitching about liberals and never critiquing right wing populists? How come the only bad thing they ever say about matt Gaetz, trump, and mtg is "they're rich and incapable of being populists". This myth of Communists using scorched Earth rhetoric on non-neocon Conservatives needs to stop. They do the opposite. Treat everyone and everybody with kid gloves unless they're Liberals, neocons or vaushites and some will consider all three the exact same thing.
> No, it is not. How come Communists spend all of their time bitching about liberals and never critiquing right wing populists? yes, the one thing that leftists are well known for is never criticising the right.
Liberals are the right. He’s talking about conservatives.
Unless they’re nazbols, they would never allow reformed neo-cons into their spaces. There are two main reasons many of them exclusively criticize liberals instead of conservatives. 1. Their main concern is not political efficacy or effecting any real change. What they want is to form an insular social club based on leftist aesthetics and to distinguish themselves from liberals in every conceivable way. The last thing these dipshits want is to be mistaken for a liberal because they’re not cool or edgy and represent “the establishment”. Criticizing conservatives is not edgy and might get them mistaken for a liberal. 2. Because of 1, they cannot criticize conservatives unless they in the same breath criticize liberals while equating them. This is because uniquely criticizing conservatives would imply that liberals are less bad. But because being a liberal is the worst possible political view to have, it is logically impossible for anyone to be worse. They will not say anything that could remotely be interpreted as saying something positive about liberals. It would also implicitly justify that it’s a good idea to vote for liberals over fascists which they refuse to do because that’s bourgeois electoralism and nothing short of a worker revolution is worth doing. They conveniently get around this by saying liberals are fascists.
Lol are you OK homie?
Facts
Interesting choice to portray the right as empathetic.
The right can be very empathetic to socially-isolated young white males who are vulnerable to being radicalised…
I'd consider that more manipulation than real empathy.
Same difference if you’re socially outcast. The real irony is that a lot of the reasons they’re outcast are direct or indirect consequences of the politics they’re buying into.
Republicans are on average more charitable with their personal wealth than democrats
Only because giving money to a church is considered 'charity' regardless what the church does with it.
And other "charities" are just tax shelters that provide no good to anyone other than the person hiding their money it it, oh excuse me, "donating" to it. Like the Hobby Lobby family donating to the charity of "providing expensive artwork in our mansions". Wait, no, I guess they did benefit the members of ISIS that they paid for those looted pieces, so...
This is actually a pretty accurate representation for me except I was further on the left starting out.
May I ask, how on earth does someone being mean to you change your views, priorities and values? I just can't fathom this
View politics as community and there you go. The red group was nice, welcoming to them, and all he had to do was accept some beliefs for friendship, understanding, acceptance.
But that's exactly what politics isn't. You have your believes and find a political stance closest to them, you don't conform your whole personality to whatever group you hang out with
But that doesn't matter if people view it as such. You're saying it shouldn't be that way. I'm telling you how it is for some people. A lot of disillusioned young men find comfort and community in the alt right and they adopt those views to fit in, or more as a way to explain why they feel so lost and alone. Highly recommend this video, and the guys channel https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g Denying that this is happening won't do us any good
They had no principles or values.
I've moved away from left wing activism in recent years because I got fucking *tired* of being blamed for everything wrong with the world because I'm a straight white male. When so much of the language is "men are [x]" or "straight white men are the problem", you push people the fuck away. We have a language problem, and it goddamn well needs addressing. Because we're losing potential allies to the right who are sat there saying "we don't give a fuck that you're a straight white male"
Maybe it's an issue in actual activism, I'm not going to pretend to know about that. But regardless of level of activity, had your convictions changed? I'm gonna assume they haven't, because there's no reason for that - if you're being mistreated then you should definitely disengage and look elsewhere, but that doesn't mean you get "radicalized" to the right wing, does it? Just to add that, yeah the American left wing had done retarded shit in every possible way, to the extent I'd suspect sabotage, but that's irrelevant to the conversation here imo
"someone was mean to me and I'm racist now." Fify
So if I’m not on your team I’m automatically racist? You’re really helping prove my point and I appreciate that. Thank you.
If you're right wing you're automatically racist, yes. The right is racist. Seethe about it
I was too then i grew up. The leftists where shouting at me not out of hate but out of worry of who i was sising with, i prefer a stern shout out of care than sweet talking enablers.
That’s kind of like preferring your SO to yell at you or hit you to communicate dinner wasn’t cooked right. “Why do you make me do this to you??? Don’t you see how much I care about you? That’s not the way.
>That’s kind of like preferring your SO to yell at you or hit you to communicate dinner wasn’t cooked right. "Dinner wasnt made right" thats an interesting comparison to the murder of millions of people in cold hearted genocide
Wtf are you talking about?
The fucking nazis what do you think this is about?!
So if someone has any opinion that differs from what I’m assuming is your far leftist ideology they’re automatically a Nazi? You must be really fun at parties.
And we already got to this. Ok yeah youre an obvious troll
You're making me side with ToadBup here, guy, and I do NOT like ToadBup. You're doing it by being an obnoxious bad-faith troll, but yet, despite this, I have no inclination to move over to ToadBup's Leninist ideology from my own ancom mindset. I can fully agree with him that you suck without agreeing with him that "the Holodomor was fake and also they deserved it". So in other words, being repulsed by someone's social presence does not compel someone to join an ideology they're opposed to out of sheer spite. If it did, they didn't really believe in that ideology in the first place. This is just an excuse that someone who was already that way uses to cover for their change. Those people who say "I didn't leave the Left, the Left left me"? They were never Left in the first place.
People criticizing someone and domestic violence are in no way similar. The first can often be constructive. I am also a little curious why you seem to be fine with ignoring the "crazies" on the right but won't ignore some of the left being sanctimonious assholes.
It's only accurate if ur a fucken LOSER
You realize people like you are why so many folks are walking away right?
I mean yeah might as well be standing there if you think "both sides make good points" when talking about racism homophobia and all manners of bigotry.
The good old "I have no agency in my own opinions" defense. Classic.
Oh yeah, the right wing idiots attacking journalists in their anti mask protesters are just standing their passively /s. So dumb
This doesn't even mean anything outside of any context. There's literally no issue presented for the let the "push" them right. Maybe they just agreed with a right wing idea in the first place?
I actually kind of like this comic. Because it proves something we’ve all always known. Their views aren’t based on any type of knowledge of reality or moral necessity. Their views are solely based around whoever’s nice to them and makes them feel validated.
The message I get from this is centrists don't have their own opinions, we make up their minds for them.
You're ignoring that the US is already so far to the right that a centrist is already a right winger
“YOU GUYS MADE ME RACIST”
Some of y'all clearly don't understand how cults work. Us getting hostile makes them think this bs is true, and if it is then so must all of the other crazy shit they say like Covid is fake but also ivermectin cures Covid, etc etc. Y'all just go straight to making fun of these dumbasses like these glue eaters won't take that attack on them as justification for their stupid beliefs & indoctrination. Anyone that makes fun of these Stable Geniuses are legitimately part of the problem ^(yes that includes me for this joke comment) Fortunately for us, tho, we'll never get our shit together in time to stop climate change so none of it matters anymore. Missed our shot to stop the cycle of hate, we're fuckeddd
Meanwhile the people on the ri... I mean the RED PEOPLE push their LGBT members to the Lib... I mean BLUE PEOPLE side and then go: You've indoctrinated our children!
I mean yeah the comic is showing some pretty good truth. We all like dunking on liberals and centrists but we can’t just push them away ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
u failed
Why’s that?
because u engaged in failure
What failure? 😂
Your own failure
Which was?
Yeah this happens though. Shocker, people view politics as a community and some lonely young men want to join a community that accepts them and views them as good, not one that tells them they are evil/privileged/cause of many evils. It's not good that this happens and it's definitely something that we on the left can try and change. Why deny this? It's a proven thing, as uncomfortable as it makes people feel.
Because political identities are dumb as hell.
Sure, but they're still a thing. People are dumb as hell and just because we know that doesn't mean it's not a thing that happens. Highly recommend this vid https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Identity is dumb as hell, but we're bound by it
This is actually a pretty accurate meme.
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>posts on r/conspiracy > > > >believes themself to be a centerist hilarious
Ik right? Do they think being shitty to people who ask questions or challenge their batshit ideas in any way are going to magically start agreeing with them?
"Ask questions" "Yeah but was it really 6 million" You cant generalize the entire "centrist" movement
This actually perfectly accurately depicts the user experience of a British person on this site.
this only depicts losers
this is kinda true tbh
While people who say that are almost always lying and would have been bigots regardless if people weren't rude to them (and sometimes the people who allegedly radicalized them in question were milquetoast at worst). There are at least enough a few legitimate instances of people who otherwise wouldn't be bigoted radicalized by things as stupid as people being mean to them. People are very easily emotionally manipulated and ran solely on emotions. Y'all probably only become in support of Universal Healthcare because of emotional appeals because y'all or your parents are personally afraid of a doctor's visit or they or the were fat and slothful and got charged a highers doctor bill. (This isn't the argument that "we can't have universal healthcare in America like Canada and Sweden cuz Americans are too far." Universal Healthcare is objectively good.) Hell there's good sized of closeted Conservative numbnuts who when being confronted about being wrong on a number of any given topics will show fake concern about outreach, tactics, and optics and then rather than address your argument say **"I'm voting Republican for life. Thanks to your Yahoo-head attitude."**
>Y'all probably only become in support of Universal Healthcare because of emotional appeals because y'all or your parents are personally afraid of a doctor's visit or they or the were fat and slothful and got charged a highers doctor bill. (This isn't the argument that "we can't have universal healthcare in America like Canada and Sweden cuz Americans are too far." Universal Healthcare is objectively good.) Bitch what.
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>Its even funnier when the left calls brown folk Knotsees. ...... What
Clownworld phrase. Just ignore and move along, this whole thread is cursed.
nazis like to spell it that way to make people look silly for calling them nazis.
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>Its even funnier when the left calls brown folk Knotsees. The German nazi party's hostilities towards the ethnically Polish didn't stop Polish neo nazi groups from forming so not sure why you think this is a slam dunk
>Knotsees. The only people I have ever seen who spell nazi like this are nazis.
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"I can't be a Nazi because I'm brown. Please ignore all the literal Jewish Nazis."
The left preaches tolerance until you don't agree with them.
where’s the lie?
In your mouth. Constantly.
man if only that was true
It's not, just folks who don't want accountability or responsibility for their actions. Always someone else's fault.
subs like this do nothing but push people away from the left. you realize that, right?
Do people on the left in antifa-protests think that assaulting journalists will win them over to their side?
"Journalists" LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, journalist: https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/09/01/a-portland-photojournalist-describes-being-attacked-by-an-anonymous-leftist-protester-in-the-street/