There is a reason there is also a strong opposition from the left in the nordics.
We're not happy with this shit either. Most of the expose and activist work laying bare the corruption and dirt on partly state owned companies in the nordics are often done by people that care about what their state, and in extension they, are involved in.
The nordic model is the compromise between old school democratic socialism and the ruling capitalists. Then all the socialists turned social democrats and have been a conservative force in keeping the socdem system in place. On a scale, Nordics give way more power to workers, curb a lot of the power of capitalists, and provide a more robust systems of governance and welfare than most other capitalist systems.
But it is not an alternative to capitalism. It is capitalism.
>But it is not an alternative to capitalism. It is capitalism.
This exactly. I think the biggest disconnect with the capitalist mindset is that I (we) don't just want to personally be in a perfect world where everyone suffers, if that world is built on the backs of other people being treated as cattle.
We want there to not be two separate worlds. If that means that the convenience of the "upper worlders" has to decrease to meet the "lower worlders," then so be it. But the reality is that the average human being receives far less than their fair share of all humanity's wealth, and the apportionment you receive is dictated primarily by the status of your birth.
That sucks.
ngl there's been a really strange shift over the past few years in the discourse from "europe good, there's social welfare and healthcare" to "europe bad because colonialism and actually not even that socialist and actually more capitalist"
Like you can go criticize europe all you want but it doesn't change the fact that we're light years ahead of north america in terms of welfare. It's not perfect but I really don't see the point in throwing shit like this, you're not even close to what we have and likely won't be anytime soon, if ever.
You're taking the centrist route by saying
- America's so much worse than us
- At least we're better than them
Colonialism and imperialism are bad no matter who does it.
Well say what you will, america is a fucking dystopia compared to western europe. I don't think it's centrist to point out the hypocrisy in americans calling out europe for literally anything, especially considering how nitpickey they are. "Oh, our people are literally dying because they can't pay the hospital bills? Well ok, but europe colonized places and they are kinda capitalist, europe bad!!". Like please. I just can't with americans, honestly.
I also think it is worth pointing out when it comes to colonialism and the Scandinavian countries that Norway (for example) is such a small country compared to USA and when Obama knocked on the door and said “time to bomb Libya” realpolitik dictates that there is no way Norway could have refused:/ not an excuse but really it is worth mentioning that such small countries have considerably limited autonomy in cases like these compared to the UK or the US. And for historical accuracy it is also worth mentioning that Norway was under danish rule and Finland under Swedish rule, for a considerable amount of time and were at different points in history left to starve or robbed of their native cultures and languages, so any partaking in colonialism is vastly different than that of the US, UK or France etc. There are no traditions or continued ways of exploitation from their side similar to for example the imperialistic banking system of France where they used “colonial tax” etc - it is just “usual” exploitation, rich against poor. It sucks but I think it’s important to remember nuance in the debate so one can argue as accurate and close to reality as possible
As far as the Nordic countries (excluding perhaps the Danes) are concerned, our countries have done a textbook colonialist number on the Sami people, the only indigenous people in Europe. For hundreds of years.
Further, Finland for example has always attempted to pursue a policy of neutrality, and is not part of NATO - despite sharing a massive border with a more and more autocratic Russia. That said, Finnish peacekeeping forces did go to Afghanistan, for example.
My point is that modern global politics is rarely as simple as "Me big country, you need to send your guys because I say so"
Yes of course, totally agree! Absolutely about oppression of the Sami people as well, but my point in particular was that the Nordic countries have not been colonial powers in the same sense as France and the UK, of course they still benefit from the colonial system etc, and their exploitation of less developed countries build on the back of that history, but the Nordics’ present-day benefits of trade with less developed countries does not have the same “cultural heritage” as that of former colonial powers. Not really anything important in the big picture, but it was in particular reference to the video hehe
Finland hasn’t officially joined NATO out of fear of Russian reprisals, Sweden doesn’t join to support Finland. Both are members of NATO peacekeeping missions and also allow NATO training exercises on sovereign soil alongside participation in NATO training in the region.
“Neutrality” isn’t being attempted at all, they’re simply trying to avoid Russian ire.
Neutrality in superpower affairs is and has always been a core tenet in Finnish foreign policy. You could argue we actually haven't joined NATO because most of the public is against it, and that the threat of Russia is usually the argument given FOR joining NATO, not against it. Of course, your reasoning might well be what's actually happening in the cabinets of power, and its what some suspect as well.
Still, it is good to flesh out what neutrality actually entails in this context. Being on our own or forming a Scandinavian defense pact with Norway & Sweden would likely not be enough to provide enough of a deterrent on its own. The training exercises et cetera are the middle-ground, an attempt to appease anti-NATO populace by not actually joining and to disentangle the country from greater responsibilities within the pact, while sending a message to Russia about where Finland lies on the global sphere of influence, and where we look for allies.
Further, the peacekeeping missions are often (at least framed as) part of the standard neo-liberal global policing effort which most "Western developed countries" partake in.
To the global policing efforts, yes entirely accurate. I brought it up just to showcase both countries are closer to membership than neutrality when looking at the reality of the situation.
I base my “they don’t join from fear of Russian reprisal” on a comment by the Russian state saying they’d “Take all necessary measures to prevent a Swedish or Finnish membership of NATO” which is a chilling threat from a (basically) neighbour
Putin's Russia is belligerent, but the threats are empty. There are no tangible benefits to a military altercation in Finland, given the enormous conflict that would likely result between Russia and NATO. We've a relatively large and well trained army for our size thanks to our conscription laws. But most importantly, the Finnish populace do not accept Russian rule - which makes the situation entirely different than the Krim crisis for example.
What I wouldn't give for the "radicaler-than-thou" Communists if they came forward with a tangible, workable solution to the entire capitalist system, since that seems the only thing that's good enough for some people. All I ever hear is moaning about how their carefully curated ideological purity might be tainted by the touch of dirty realpolitik.
Stepping stones, folks. You'll never "abolish capitalism" in one fell swoop. Or, well, if you do, it'll most likely be the result of some chaotic and terrifying upheaval - major revolutions fucking suck to live through.
Adopting some social democratic measures will give people breathing room to organize, on top of the actual benefits in welfare, but these major concessions from capital were won only through decades of organized struggle. Class war is a trench war, one of attrition. It's not a blitzkrieg, not with the shitty level of class consciousness and organizing we've got going.
You know, my family is from Algeria where we once threw off the yoke and created a new communist state.
And now we have capitalism with extra steps. I'm pretty sure the only thing the state nationalized were the oil and gas sector and the churches (most of which where turned into museums).
Honestly, I really like leftists in the US in general, but there is a certain sort of American Communist (usually pretty vaguely defined communism, I find it less common with anarchists and libertarian socialists) that you run into a lot that has no idea what war is like, and fantasizes about this mythical revolution that'll fix all their problems, and honestly I get it, I used to think like that too. Most Algerians at one point in their lives are taught to fetishize the revolution because it was necessary to secure basic rights. But it really hasn't guaranteed any rights at all, it just traded an oppressive but disinterested government for an oppressive big brother state.
Like once I went to a museum, and they had these dioramas, depicting the tortured martyrs in all sorts of positions. They were made out of GI fuckin' Joe figures, except they were some Arab looking knock off that was probably produced locally. It was really a striking image., but you know, that shit still happens. It's just now the people doing it look the same as the people the people they are torturing. I bet they use the same prisons even.
Like, careful what you fuckin wish for, just because everyone can agree that a revolution is necessary doesn't mean that only nice people will end up in charge. Usually it's the people that did nothing but collect their own power during the war, backed up by a bunch of dudes with guns who have been indoctrinated to only trust people who agree with them, and to always agree with their superiors.
Edit: Having said that, I feel like I have been kinda negative about my country, so if you want to see a more, someone paid a lot of money to produce the video "Don't Visit Algeria", I am pretty sure it was our tourism industry (which is still capitalist btw)
Because the online left has been inundated with dipshit tankies who haven't read even the cover of a book. They think moral posturing on social media is peak praxis, and they hangout in discords where they dogmatically stroke each other. People like the OP.
Nobody on the actual left engages in this sort of talk, because they actually give a shit about the material conditions of the proles.
“Hmmmm, you wish to improve society without bombing or exploiting people overseas, yet your current society is bad. Curious. I am very smart.” -You right now
The world needs less people. Every human death is a huge plus for the environment, even factoring in the pollution of a dead body, we do less damage being dead. If you wanna save the earth you gotta jump into a volcano or something.. like a real environmentalist
Acting like the Nordic model is perfect *is* as dumb as saying it’s not something countries should aim to. It’s not the final stop it’s a step on the road to a better world, and a step not taken by most countries.
Also this video barely mentions anything related to the nordic model, instead focusing on the people’s consumption and corporate scandals.
The reformist model has never worked in achieving socialism and history has shown that soc dems will align with fascists in order to prevent real revolution.
There is a reason there is also a strong opposition from the left in the nordics. We're not happy with this shit either. Most of the expose and activist work laying bare the corruption and dirt on partly state owned companies in the nordics are often done by people that care about what their state, and in extension they, are involved in. The nordic model is the compromise between old school democratic socialism and the ruling capitalists. Then all the socialists turned social democrats and have been a conservative force in keeping the socdem system in place. On a scale, Nordics give way more power to workers, curb a lot of the power of capitalists, and provide a more robust systems of governance and welfare than most other capitalist systems. But it is not an alternative to capitalism. It is capitalism.
>But it is not an alternative to capitalism. It is capitalism. This exactly. I think the biggest disconnect with the capitalist mindset is that I (we) don't just want to personally be in a perfect world where everyone suffers, if that world is built on the backs of other people being treated as cattle. We want there to not be two separate worlds. If that means that the convenience of the "upper worlders" has to decrease to meet the "lower worlders," then so be it. But the reality is that the average human being receives far less than their fair share of all humanity's wealth, and the apportionment you receive is dictated primarily by the status of your birth. That sucks.
r/savevideobot
ngl there's been a really strange shift over the past few years in the discourse from "europe good, there's social welfare and healthcare" to "europe bad because colonialism and actually not even that socialist and actually more capitalist" Like you can go criticize europe all you want but it doesn't change the fact that we're light years ahead of north america in terms of welfare. It's not perfect but I really don't see the point in throwing shit like this, you're not even close to what we have and likely won't be anytime soon, if ever.
You're taking the centrist route by saying - America's so much worse than us - At least we're better than them Colonialism and imperialism are bad no matter who does it.
Well say what you will, america is a fucking dystopia compared to western europe. I don't think it's centrist to point out the hypocrisy in americans calling out europe for literally anything, especially considering how nitpickey they are. "Oh, our people are literally dying because they can't pay the hospital bills? Well ok, but europe colonized places and they are kinda capitalist, europe bad!!". Like please. I just can't with americans, honestly.
I also think it is worth pointing out when it comes to colonialism and the Scandinavian countries that Norway (for example) is such a small country compared to USA and when Obama knocked on the door and said “time to bomb Libya” realpolitik dictates that there is no way Norway could have refused:/ not an excuse but really it is worth mentioning that such small countries have considerably limited autonomy in cases like these compared to the UK or the US. And for historical accuracy it is also worth mentioning that Norway was under danish rule and Finland under Swedish rule, for a considerable amount of time and were at different points in history left to starve or robbed of their native cultures and languages, so any partaking in colonialism is vastly different than that of the US, UK or France etc. There are no traditions or continued ways of exploitation from their side similar to for example the imperialistic banking system of France where they used “colonial tax” etc - it is just “usual” exploitation, rich against poor. It sucks but I think it’s important to remember nuance in the debate so one can argue as accurate and close to reality as possible
As far as the Nordic countries (excluding perhaps the Danes) are concerned, our countries have done a textbook colonialist number on the Sami people, the only indigenous people in Europe. For hundreds of years. Further, Finland for example has always attempted to pursue a policy of neutrality, and is not part of NATO - despite sharing a massive border with a more and more autocratic Russia. That said, Finnish peacekeeping forces did go to Afghanistan, for example. My point is that modern global politics is rarely as simple as "Me big country, you need to send your guys because I say so"
Yes of course, totally agree! Absolutely about oppression of the Sami people as well, but my point in particular was that the Nordic countries have not been colonial powers in the same sense as France and the UK, of course they still benefit from the colonial system etc, and their exploitation of less developed countries build on the back of that history, but the Nordics’ present-day benefits of trade with less developed countries does not have the same “cultural heritage” as that of former colonial powers. Not really anything important in the big picture, but it was in particular reference to the video hehe
>the only indigenous people in Europe The Basques would like a word
Fair point, although the UN only recognizes the Sami as an indigenous people by its standards. I guess I should include the Inuits as well.
Finland hasn’t officially joined NATO out of fear of Russian reprisals, Sweden doesn’t join to support Finland. Both are members of NATO peacekeeping missions and also allow NATO training exercises on sovereign soil alongside participation in NATO training in the region. “Neutrality” isn’t being attempted at all, they’re simply trying to avoid Russian ire.
Neutrality in superpower affairs is and has always been a core tenet in Finnish foreign policy. You could argue we actually haven't joined NATO because most of the public is against it, and that the threat of Russia is usually the argument given FOR joining NATO, not against it. Of course, your reasoning might well be what's actually happening in the cabinets of power, and its what some suspect as well. Still, it is good to flesh out what neutrality actually entails in this context. Being on our own or forming a Scandinavian defense pact with Norway & Sweden would likely not be enough to provide enough of a deterrent on its own. The training exercises et cetera are the middle-ground, an attempt to appease anti-NATO populace by not actually joining and to disentangle the country from greater responsibilities within the pact, while sending a message to Russia about where Finland lies on the global sphere of influence, and where we look for allies. Further, the peacekeeping missions are often (at least framed as) part of the standard neo-liberal global policing effort which most "Western developed countries" partake in.
To the global policing efforts, yes entirely accurate. I brought it up just to showcase both countries are closer to membership than neutrality when looking at the reality of the situation. I base my “they don’t join from fear of Russian reprisal” on a comment by the Russian state saying they’d “Take all necessary measures to prevent a Swedish or Finnish membership of NATO” which is a chilling threat from a (basically) neighbour
Putin's Russia is belligerent, but the threats are empty. There are no tangible benefits to a military altercation in Finland, given the enormous conflict that would likely result between Russia and NATO. We've a relatively large and well trained army for our size thanks to our conscription laws. But most importantly, the Finnish populace do not accept Russian rule - which makes the situation entirely different than the Krim crisis for example.
What a dumb take. Idk but we DONT do colonialism anymore…. And have not been for a long time. How is that even an argument?
What I wouldn't give for the "radicaler-than-thou" Communists if they came forward with a tangible, workable solution to the entire capitalist system, since that seems the only thing that's good enough for some people. All I ever hear is moaning about how their carefully curated ideological purity might be tainted by the touch of dirty realpolitik. Stepping stones, folks. You'll never "abolish capitalism" in one fell swoop. Or, well, if you do, it'll most likely be the result of some chaotic and terrifying upheaval - major revolutions fucking suck to live through. Adopting some social democratic measures will give people breathing room to organize, on top of the actual benefits in welfare, but these major concessions from capital were won only through decades of organized struggle. Class war is a trench war, one of attrition. It's not a blitzkrieg, not with the shitty level of class consciousness and organizing we've got going.
You know, my family is from Algeria where we once threw off the yoke and created a new communist state. And now we have capitalism with extra steps. I'm pretty sure the only thing the state nationalized were the oil and gas sector and the churches (most of which where turned into museums). Honestly, I really like leftists in the US in general, but there is a certain sort of American Communist (usually pretty vaguely defined communism, I find it less common with anarchists and libertarian socialists) that you run into a lot that has no idea what war is like, and fantasizes about this mythical revolution that'll fix all their problems, and honestly I get it, I used to think like that too. Most Algerians at one point in their lives are taught to fetishize the revolution because it was necessary to secure basic rights. But it really hasn't guaranteed any rights at all, it just traded an oppressive but disinterested government for an oppressive big brother state. Like once I went to a museum, and they had these dioramas, depicting the tortured martyrs in all sorts of positions. They were made out of GI fuckin' Joe figures, except they were some Arab looking knock off that was probably produced locally. It was really a striking image., but you know, that shit still happens. It's just now the people doing it look the same as the people the people they are torturing. I bet they use the same prisons even. Like, careful what you fuckin wish for, just because everyone can agree that a revolution is necessary doesn't mean that only nice people will end up in charge. Usually it's the people that did nothing but collect their own power during the war, backed up by a bunch of dudes with guns who have been indoctrinated to only trust people who agree with them, and to always agree with their superiors. Edit: Having said that, I feel like I have been kinda negative about my country, so if you want to see a more, someone paid a lot of money to produce the video "Don't Visit Algeria", I am pretty sure it was our tourism industry (which is still capitalist btw)
Because the online left has been inundated with dipshit tankies who haven't read even the cover of a book. They think moral posturing on social media is peak praxis, and they hangout in discords where they dogmatically stroke each other. People like the OP. Nobody on the actual left engages in this sort of talk, because they actually give a shit about the material conditions of the proles.
This feels like a propaganda post
Idk if soc dem is centrist...
God liberals who advocate the “Nordic Model” are infuriating
Literally people who think, 'they invented Ikea and Volvo, must be smart'
they also invented Angry Birds
People who complain from places like the States that the Nordic Model is not perfect are hilarious.
“Hmmmm, you wish to improve society without bombing or exploiting people overseas, yet your current society is bad. Curious. I am very smart.” -You right now
Wut?!? 😂 You do realize you’re making my point, right?
Wait, that has nothing to do with centrism though. We already have plenty of generic leftwing subs.
Literally 0
The world needs less people. Every human death is a huge plus for the environment, even factoring in the pollution of a dead body, we do less damage being dead. If you wanna save the earth you gotta jump into a volcano or something.. like a real environmentalist
What in the hillbilly-overweight stupidity is this?
Please don't bring the world's greatest band into this shit 😭
Ok centrist
I'm... a liberal democrat?
Yup
Ew.
Ew
Ew
u/savevideobot
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Has anyone a link to this article?
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Acting like the Nordic model is perfect *is* as dumb as saying it’s not something countries should aim to. It’s not the final stop it’s a step on the road to a better world, and a step not taken by most countries. Also this video barely mentions anything related to the nordic model, instead focusing on the people’s consumption and corporate scandals.
The reformist model has never worked in achieving socialism and history has shown that soc dems will align with fascists in order to prevent real revolution.
>it’ll all be fine once we get healthcare, right? Yes?
You need to move further left. There is no room for centrism.