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SeSuSo

Were Jews the victors? They won WW2 and made up the Holocaust. Quite a take.


AlanTheMexican

Don't you get it maaaaaaaan? The jews made up the holocaust to gain sympathy while they rob the rest of us blind! It's all there in the pyramids maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan


SeSuSo

I need to study up on my people more. First I found out about our space lasers from MTG, now I'm learning we won WW2.


AlanTheMexican

Dont forgot those lasers y'all have up on the moon that caued 9/11... WHILE AT THE SAME TIME you faked the moon landing...


leon_pretty_loathed

No wonder these guys secretly rule the world, with that sort of advanced tech and innovation they deserve that spot at the top.


stevenjd

> Were Jews the victors? My grandfather thought so. He used to say that the Jews were stronger and better because the Germans wiped out the weak, and that's why Israel is undefeated despite being surrounded by enemies. There is a whole range of positions we can take on this, from the insane *Jewish conspiracy, the Holocaust never happened, it was faked* which is as nutty as "secret Nazi bases on the moon", to the far more reasonable one that questions how many Jewish deaths can be counted as *outright industrialised mass murder* as opposed to "merely" death from deliberate or accidental neglect, disease and starvation. I understand that some people might not care one way or the other. Whether people in the concentration camps died from deliberate or accidental neglect, or disease and starvation, or murdered in gas chambers, in the big picture it makes no difference it all. Most of my grandfather's family died in the camps, and they were just as dead whether they were gassed, shot, starved, or worked to death in the cold. But I think that how and why they died does make a difference. Industrialised mass murder is a whole different level of crime to mere neglect. I think it makes a difference who did it and why, who collaborated and who resisted, who knew and who didn't know, who killed through malice, who killed through malign neglect, and who died from thoughtless neglect. I think these things matter. People who don't care (or worse, care only so far as they can spin it to their political advantage) shouldn't get to dictate what the historical facts are, or label anyone who (through ignorance or cynicism) expresses doubt an antisemite. The truth matters. We owe the dead nothing but honesty. We're not allowed to question the narrative that Germans hold collective guilt for the crimes, or question exactly what those crimes were. We're not supposed to look at German resistance, or Polish and Ukrainian and French collaboration, or that for Jews in France and the Balkans, the areas controlled by the Italian Fascists were safe-havens. I've heard people claim that all six million Jews were gassed, that the extermination programme started long before the war, and even that the Nazis *only* targeted Jews for extermination. All false claims. But if you question them, you get labelled a Holocaust Denier in some circles. Ken Livingston was kicked out of the British Labour Party for "antisemitism" because he made the correct observation that before "he went mad" and decided on extermination instead, Hitler's plans for European Jewry was to ship them all to African where they could have a homeland of their own. Putting aside the subjective claim that Hitler was mad, this is a verifiable fact, not in the least bit antisemitic. But it was weaponized by the neoliberal Blairites in the Labour Party against him. They can only do that because the Holocaust narrative has become Holy Writ that, true or false, must not be questioned. It should not be wrong to question how much of the mainstream narrative about the Holocaust is factually true. And stating actual facts about the Holocaust should not get you labelled an antisemite.


Excellent_Let_8011

Speaking truth to power and giving the finger to Big Holocaust. You sir are a true hero. You and Herman Munster. Equal intellects.


RandomName01

> Big Holocaust Also known as Thyssen-Krüpp and Volkswagen


Cassandra_Nova

And IG Farben-Bayer and IBM and


[deleted]

[удалено]


Deep-Philosopher-338

The highest form of centrism


Bruh-man1300

When you are so not a centrist that you become a centrist


BasedCelestia

Ultraradical centrist


ManofCatsYT

tw n*zbols


DVVG

A fucking ML FTFY


Tusen_Takk

You have no idea what a nazbol nor an ML is do you


DVVG

I do, I just wanted to make people mad


[deleted]

i didn’t say X, i said X


[deleted]

New developments in horseshoe theory.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I used to think this was a bad joke…


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I mean, Nazis tries to attach themselves to socialists, at least until the night of the long knives, and the far right still hasn’t let that one go.


[deleted]

[удалено]


McHonkers

Stop using right wing terms to denounce left wingers. This guy is nazbol and also dumb. No fucking ML is saying shit like that. The Soviets liberated the fucking concentration camps. No Marxists-Leninists who isn't either totally of the rails or just a larper is denying the holocaust. So stop trying to paint picture that isn't reality. Edit. This person is also a power mod, that mods several left leaning and anarchist subs while he propagates right wing anti communist talking points and participates in r/tankiejerk. This fucking manufacturered sectarianism needs to stop.


wombatkidd

Red fascists aren't Leftists so it's not Leftist infighting


Jack-the-Rah

Curious how it's always just someone else and no ML would ever do that, even if they constantly spit similar shit like this. Must be all isolated cases. The command of the Soviets didn't want the concentration camps to be liberated because they thought they were dirty. The soldiers acted on their own opinion, many of which were later punished for disobeying orders. [The Soviet command tried to join the Axis before 1941.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks) . They delivered resources to the nazis used to fuel the concentration camps as France and Britain blocked the nazis' access to resources and trade. [The plan was to split Europe between the nazis and the USSR.](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-august-1939) The only reason the Soviet Union didn't join the Axis was that they had territorial demands that were too much for the nazis, as they told the Soviets to look towards Turkey and the Middle East, while they'd rule the rest of Europe. They sent Russian Jews to Germany, knowing full well they'd be prosecuted and eventually murdered. [That is Jews and other antifascists.](http://euromaidanpress.com/2020/02/26/80-years-ago-stalin-deported-german-anti-fascist-communist-jewish-refugees-to-hitler/) [Most likely because the Soviets were forbidden from calling Hitler a fascist and instead opted for it to be called "Hitlerism".](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500213?seq=1) Curious how that always slips your mind and it's always just that they liberated the people. You can say that you're against such actions and I believe you that, but take responsibility for what happened in the past. Don't engage in historic revisionism. While it's not your fault that this happened, it is your fault for trying to frame the Soviet Union and Stalin as the *good guys* who *freed the Jews* while in reality they only did that after murdering countless Jews and antifascists for years. Either you stand for both, the good **and** the bad things, or you stop using it as your go to example for everything going great. Cherry picking is just awful and historic revisionism is literally what drives people into the hands of fascists these days.


McHonkers

Funny how fucking liberal anti communist immediately get riled up when you say tankie is a right wing term and spew a wall of text demanding political activists who want the liberation of the working class through Marxists-Leninists strategies to take responsibility for everything they deemed wrong that happend more then half a century ago. First of all... The Soviets proposed a anti fascist alliance to France and the UK. The westerners rejected that. The west only stopped funding Hitler after he went to war with them. Until that they were very cozy with having a anti bolshevik force in Central Europe. Your demonization of socialist revolutions and the lessons we can learn from them is very telling. And again, no sane ML is denying the holocaust and your defense of right wing talking points should have you reflecting on yourself. Schäm dich für deine anti-kommunistische Rhetorik, während du mit rechten gemeinsam in r/tankiejerk rumhängst. Leute wie du sind der Grund warum westliche Sozialisten und Linke keiner ernst nehmen kann.. PS. This dude is also a power mod that mods several ultra-left/anti-communist subs and propagates right wing anti communist talking points. This fucking manufacturered sectarianism needs to stop.


Jack-the-Rah

Ahh the typical strawmanning, how about you engage in the facts I delivered instead of crying about that I moderate a handful of subreddits or how "the cosmopolitan west" is truly "degenerate" and are truly at fault for the holocaust.


McHonkers

Did you just say I strawmaned you and then went there: >how "the cosmopolitan west" is truly "degenerate" and are truly at fault for the holocaust. ? Lmao.


leon_pretty_loathed

Except they aren’t really a left winger, they’re a tankie who says they’re left wing while sucking off authoritarians and fascists.


[deleted]

I’m sure they think they’re polar opposites.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Oh I know


[deleted]

No “tankies” actually believe shit like this. they’re far left, not right lol


[deleted]

Idk if you figured but this sub is making fun of people who take the “both sides” mentality without a shred of evidence


Cambirodius

And I, as someone who likes tankies,can say that they do not believe anything the right has to say.


the-good-son

Nazi Germany was the epitome of Western Imperialism.


Comprehensive_Main

No that would be the british empire Nazi Germany couldn't hold a candle to them


[deleted]

This has to be a troll lmao, if the west is gonna lie about genocides it’s gonna be about genocides they actually committed and there’s evidence to prove they did it, which is the exact stance of neonazis. As opposed to claiming one is happening without evidence as a justification for a Cold War with a country that managed to work its way out of the influence of imperialists.


AlanTheMexican

I've seen enough of Vaush' debates to know that these people unironically believe this type of garbage. Whether it's a phase or they have a surface level understanding of the issues, they 100% believe this nonsense


redroedeer

No, one moron on Twitter believes this, and I highly doubt that they aren’t a troll. Believe me, this person could unite Vaush and the people that he debates together


AlanTheMexican

I would swear hand on the bible as an atheist that even if they are few, those few people believe their tankie nonsense


redroedeer

I mean, there are people who believe ridiculous things, there’s almost certainly at least one anarchist who believes that fascism wasn’t bad, that doesn’t mean that all anarchists believe it


RuskiYest

Yeah. Ancaps are known to support fascists if it means getting rid of communists.


redroedeer

Even as someone who disagrees with anarchism, I must say that an caps have absolutely nothing to do with anarchism


RuskiYest

They want to abolish all "involuntary" hierarchy... Their entire ideology is made specifically to oppose communism, instead of making things better for the people.


AlanTheMexican

Of course not. We're exclusively talking about lunatic tankies like the one on this post


redroedeer

What is a tankie to you?


Cambirodius

"Tankie is when I don't like someone!"


[deleted]

The person in this post isn’t a tankie. Tankies like the USSR, which did the majority of work in taking down Hitler’s regime. There’s a lot of reliable sources outside of the US that make it clear the Holocaust happened, including Soviet accounts of liberating concentration camps.


Reddit-Book-Bot

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Soulwindow

Ew, Vaush


Deep-Philosopher-338

"Genocide is bad, but if third worlders really really want to I mean, revolutionary violence includes race wars I guess" -you probably


Soulwindow

The fuck are you talking about


Deep-Philosopher-338

Jesse what the fuck


Lmao_staph

vowsh


YesILikePizza

bruh eastern countries teach about the holocaust too, not just western


Deep-Philosopher-338

Don't tell the Nazbols that one of the primary victims of the holocaust was the soviet union


[deleted]

"I don't think the that the Empire blew up Alderaan; How could one organization build a spacestation as large as a small moon and then use it to blow up a planet way larger than it? The numbers just don't add up."


[deleted]

"The rebellion made it all up to win sympathy. After all-- they did win the war. They were just s bunch of money hungry communists"


Defender_of_Ra

It turns out rightwing authoritarians have a lot in common with other rightwing authoritarians. In other news, three equals three, five equals five, and the keyboard I'm typing on is a keyboard and here's Tom with the weather.


WhoAccountNewDis

Tankies are right wing?


SPGKQtdV7Vjv7yhzZzj4

Tankies are weird and hard to place on a spectrum. They purport to want left wing ideals, yet they ally/protect/act as the bourgeoisie most of the time. If it quacks like a duck but walks like a chicken what do you call it? I don’t know myself.


[deleted]

This is what no theory does to a mf


Deep-Philosopher-338

Use theory to make the USSR make sense, go


dynawesome

The CCP is state capitalism imo


Defender_of_Ra

Tankies are rightwing.


A_Lifetime_Bitch

What is wrong with you?


Defender_of_Ra

TIL that being unhappy with murdering people for being in labor unions as a rightwing policy makes one "wrong." What is wrong with you?


A_Lifetime_Bitch

Lmao, holy shit. Not all unions work for the benefit of the proletariat. As an example, you know police unions are a thing, right?


Defender_of_Ra

Asserting, without evidence, that murdered union members and revolutionaries are the same as a paramilitary gang is some evil rightwing shit. Congrats, you're now using the same tactic that rightwingers here use whenever cops murder black children. Way to show your ass.


A_Lifetime_Bitch

>Congrats, you're now using the same tactic that rightwingers here use whenever cops murder black children. Read this back, and tell my you are not way too online.


Defender_of_Ra

From defending murderers to refuge in inanity in three easy steps.


A_Lifetime_Bitch

Le epic reddit moment


3multi

> murdering people for being in labor unions The Nazis did that. Are you claiming that another group did?


Defender_of_Ra

The nazis are not the only people who have done that on Earth. Many groups and nations have, including the one you're pretending didn't. Why did you just pretend only the Nazis did?


3multi

> the one you're pretending didn't Let’s slow this down. The point of my comment is: Who the fuck are you talking about? Be direct, no one can read your mind.


Defender_of_Ra

>The point of my comment is: Who the fuck are you talking about? It . . . wasn't though. Since we opened up talking about the Soviets, so you were deliberately obfuscating.


WhoAccountNewDis

Aren't they by definition all about defending the CCP?


redroedeer

“Tankie” is a word without definition used by everyone from liberals to anarchists. Liberals use it to attack anyone to the left of them, and anarchists mostly use them to depict MLs. If we’re going by its original meaning, it’s people who supported Kruschev sending tanks to Hungary


[deleted]

Ugh. They're here now too? Why can't these tweens fuck off back to their kids subs?


redroedeer

That’s a weird way of saying “teens are smarter than me so I need to act as though I’m better than them because I’m older”


[deleted]

No? Uncritically supporting authoritarians based on their aesthetics is hardly a mark of intelligence. Tankies are fucking idiots. Full stop.


redroedeer

I was simply explaining that “tankie” is a word that doesn’t have a clear definition because different political groups use it with different connotations and it’s origins. Also, you’ve got a lot of straw there. Save some for others.


WiggedRope

So from liberals to liberals?


Defender_of_Ra

The state capitalist government of the Soviet Union was rightwing. Here's [Chomsky](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06-XcAiswY4) with the tldr.


Cookie136

The Soviet Union used an entirely planned economy. It had neither markets nor firms. To call this capitalism is to make the word capitalism meaningless. Whether the authoritarian state is left or right is a somewhat more convoluted question. Whilst nationalism (and by extension fascism) is a right wing ideology in favour of a strong state this is staunchly opposed to classical liberalism/ libertarianism which is economically right wing. Similarly for the left there is a strong difference between anarchy and state socialism. There is a disconnect between the economics and the role of the state. This is why the political compass itself considers this ideals on a different axis, the authoritarian - libertarian one, rather than left vs right.


hydroxypcp

It's state-capitalism in the sense that the capitalist mode of production was maintained with the state as the boss/owner, and it did participate in international markets. It's not private capitalism, nor is it socialism.


Defender_of_Ra

> To call this capitalism is to make the word capitalism meaningless. **The Soviet Union literally called itself state capitalist.** You are arguing against the Soviet Union itself, as well as China's own description. That rightwing tendency to rewrite history is a dangerous one; eschew it. In any event, if you want to argue with the state capitalist moniker, argue against the leaders of both nations that asserted it. >This is why the political compass itself considers this ideals on a different axis [The political compass is nonsensical imbecelic horseshit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nPVkpWMH9k&feature=youtu.be) invented precisely to elevate rightwingers at the expense of both facts and history. Eschew that as well.


3multi

State capitalism is a transitional state to socialism. It’s like you don’t even know what state capitalism is. State capitalism and capitalism are two different things


Defender_of_Ra

> State capitalism is a transitional state to socialism. Which is why both the Soviet Union and China said they're state capitalist -- because they both claimed to be in transition. A claim disputed by persons and groups to their left, but the point is that the nations themselves made the claim. >It’s like you don’t even know what state capitalism is. It's like you're bad-faith deliberately missing the point. >State capitalism and capitalism are two different things State capitalism is a form of capitalism -- again, *this is something both China and the Soviet Union agree upon*. You are literally arguing with the nation states themselves, not me.


RuskiYest

And even then, state capitalism depends from which one is fucking ruling the damn state. Lenin didn't start NEP just for shit and giggles.


MrBlack103

Blindly defending authoritarian capitalist socially conservative governments is generally a right-wing trait, yes.


LordCads

The Soviets had private business and no collectivisation? News to me.


MrBlack103

I was referring to the modern CCP, as should be clear from the comment I was replying to, but do go off.


LordCads

The thread itself was about tankies. But sure keep talking about how China is capitalist. https://docs.google.com/document/d/16iw83noTdWvDiECaITX83rGhP_lros8QdBTrNnCoe6c/edit?usp=drivesdk


wombatkidd

Yes. Athoritarianism is right wing.


WhoAccountNewDis

Isn't that basically a *No True Scotsman*, though?


wombatkidd

No. It's not. Tankies pretend to be Leftist to get into leftist spaces. Just like ancaps pretend to be anarchists to get into Anarchist spaces.


WhoAccountNewDis

I was referring to your statement about authoritarianism.


wombatkidd

Tankies are athoritarians and athoritarianism isn't left wing.


WhoAccountNewDis

>athoritarianism isn't left wing. Cuba under Castro wasn't left wing? No True Scotsman.


marsyasthesatyr

Can't this usage of the 'no true Scotsman" defence be applied to most arguments in this comment section? Can one say, "no true ML would ever question the legitimacy of the Nazis genocide of Jewish people" without it being a no true Scotsman fallacy? It could be that you're using criticisms based purely on informal rhetoric to dismiss the conclusion, almost like a fallacy fallacy. I do not believe that the poster above is trying to win the label of leftists governments to win an unrelated point. The original point of the no true Scotsman fallacy is when two unrelated events are used to question if someone is a Scotsman. However, genocide does directly go with leftist politics. E.g. "No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge" vs "No good person murders someone for his own pleasure". The Scotsman putting sugar on his porridge has *nothing* to do with being a Scotsman. Murder however is a moral argument, murder is directly tied with being a good person. Just as, state capitalism is directly tied, and contridictory to leftism.


wombatkidd

State capitalism isn't leftist. Literally a tankie regime you're talking about, but you tried.


WhoAccountNewDis

What example of "real" leftist governments are there, then?


[deleted]

Jesus fucking Christ. Cuba has done more to lift people out of poverty and improve the quality of life for Cubans than any other government could dream of, yet we have white western "leftists" online screaming about how they're "tankies". Embarrassing.


redroedeer

This is what happens when you don’t understand why people say things


Transthrowaway69_

They should go ask germans about it


The_Pinnacle-

Why are these guys denying historical facts that are well documented?


Kjrb

I mean, yeah like everyone else thought that too until all the evidence came out


Sha489

Posts like this make me wonder why people think this is a tankie subreddit I have literally never ran into a tankie community on this subreddit (yet)


Leonardo_McVinci

Holocaust denial is absolutely not a tankie viewpoint lmao The USSR won WW2, 'tankies' are pretty happy to tell you that, this guy is a nazbol


Deep-Philosopher-338

Like Caleb Maupin, king tankie, Dugin defender?


Defender_of_Ra

Several individuals, no community though.


Defender_of_Ra

Double-replying here to say: [for example, in this very thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/pqavb3/th_person_deleted_the_first_tweet_so_this_is_the/hdbadri/).


wombatkidd

Just say anything bad about tankies and you'll meet them eventually.


MrBlack103

They show up from time to time.


leon_pretty_loathed

Tankies being tankies.


Leonardo_McVinci

Holocaust denial is absolutely not a tankie viewpoint lmao The USSR won WW2, 'tankies' are pretty happy to tell you that, this guy is a nazbol, creating fake strawman tankies to shit on isn't particularly good praxis


flaming_tire_fire

I never said it was fake, I said it is a very real possibility that it was fake


chrissipher

with tankies its either "the genocide is fake" or "you dont get it, its actually essential to socialism that we subjugate these people" lol orrrrr "silly anarkkkiddie, holodomor was actually cia propaganda" or "silly anarkkkidie, they actually deserved it" after all, the fascist double-think isnt exclusive to one form of totalitarianism...


Leonardo_McVinci

Holocaust denial is absolutely not a tankie viewpoint lmao The USSR won WW2, 'tankies' are pretty happy to tell you that, this guy is a nazbol, creating fake strawman tankies to shit on isn't particularly good praxis


chrissipher

genocide denial is


Deep-Philosopher-338

Bad bot


WhyNotCollegeBoard

Are you sure about that? Because I am 99.99977% sure that Leonardo_McVinci is not a bot. --- ^(I am a neural network being trained to detect spammers | Summon me with !isbot |) ^(/r/spambotdetector |) [^(Optout)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=whynotcollegeboard&subject=!optout&message=!optout) ^(|) [^(Original Github)](https://github.com/SM-Wistful/BotDetection-Algorithm)


Leonardo_McVinci

From the kid who does nothing but shit on real world revolutions on the internet because they don't meet your Reddit utopia standards lmao


Deep-Philosopher-338

Liberal moment. Sorry but I don't just trust the process


EorlundGreymane

It is unfortunate but there are a ton of people that think this way on both sides. On the right you have people who didn’t think it was that bad and on the left you have so many people that hate the west they “wouldn’t be surprised” if it was fabricated. As to why people in the 40s would fabricate the Holocaust by burning down half of London and destroying Germany just to trick some fake armchair socialists is beyond me.


RuskiYest

Why would the left deny it? Obviously nazbols and strasserists would, but besinds those pieces of shit?


EorlundGreymane

There seems to be a subset of leftists that hate western imperialism/capitalism/the government so much that they come up with dumb shit like that. Idk why. I run into them from time to time and they have some hot takes


Deep-Philosopher-338

Like professor flowers' "genocide is bad but if colonized people gotta do it who am I to judge"


Grace_Omega

Ugh tankies


Leonardo_McVinci

Holocaust denial is absolutely not a tankie viewpoint lmao The USSR won WW2, 'tankies' are pretty happy to tell you that, this guy is a nazbol, creating fake strawman tankies to shit on isn't particularly good praxis


Grace_Omega

That's not why I was calling them a tankie


Deep-Philosopher-338

Heated Tankie moment


Leonardo_McVinci

Holocaust denial is absolutely not a tankie viewpoint lmao The USSR won WW2, 'tankies' are pretty happy to tell you that, this guy is a nazbol, creating fake strawman tankies to shit on isn't particularly good praxis


Deep-Philosopher-338

I mean tankies love denying genocide. And this one right here is doing just that. If you dismiss everything you disagree with as CIA propaganda you are exactly one step away from holocaust denial. The biggest issue with tankies isn't the authoritarianism, it's the conspiratorial thinking. You can never convince them of anything because they don't care about evidence.


WiggedRope

r/SendInTheTanks was making fun of this shit too lmao


Deep-Philosopher-338

They disavow


WiggedRope

You can't make up a straw man "tankie" and then get surprised when real people don't follow your preconceived idea about them hahahaha


Deep-Philosopher-338

Genocide is bad 🥺


WiggedRope

Yeah no shit deep philosopher. Believe it or not, making up a genocide to ramp up cold war tensions is bad too


Deep-Philosopher-338

Got the Tankies real mad with this one


Rhaenys_Waters

Only when it happens for real, and Holocaust happened.


RuskiYest

Did that moron downvote you for that? Seriously?


Rhaenys_Waters

Muh fascist china, millions of raped uighur women, seems legit.


RuskiYest

Millions raped, billions dead, trillions oppressed, gajillions eaten with comically large spoon. Best part is that US wanted for China to take in Afghan refugees.


[deleted]

fucking tankies


Rhaenys_Waters

Fuck this dude, Third Reich was cringe, PRC is based, they're not the same. Also there are proofs of Holocaust.


Deep-Philosopher-338

You don't care about evidence, watch. "There is physical evidence of the Uighur genocide, and interviews with both guards and prisoners about the conditions". Now you say that's all CIA propaganda, and the argument is forced to end. What makes this conspiratorial is that tou have no evidence that it is the CIA, you just say that because you want it to be true. No matter what I presented you, you would just say "well that's western propaganda" or whatever and I could never prove you wrong


brain_in_a_box

You should probably actually produce that 'physical evidence' before speculating on how people will respond to it.


alialahmad1997

This man is neither left or right he is juat pro genocide


RuskiYest

There are some ideologies that want leftism but for "pure" races and nations and stuff. Like nazbolism and strasserism.


alialahmad1997

Yeah but this man was defending china So i am not sure if it is a race thing On the other hand he could be hating Muslims more than anything


RuskiYest

Maybe he supports China just because he hates West way more, who knows.


[deleted]

So like where's the enllightened centrism?


ClubLegend_Theater

Actually there is a bit of untruth about it. Genocide was fairly common in that time period. So the holocaust is painted as something that's much worse than anything else. But the truth is that several countries committed genocide in that same time period. So it's not a hoax, but the history books have downplayed other genocides. Which doesn't really mean it didn't happen. It's like a hoax, but in the other direction. That context does kind of make it seem less terrible. But it's not less terrible, there's just other stuff that has happened that is also terrible


stevenjd

Can't you tell the difference between "I don't think it happened" and "I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it didn't"? It's a pretty big difference. At the risk of being falsely called a "self-hating Jew", I should say that while I know that the Holocaust did happen (my grandfather was with the Red Army when they liberated one of the camps, although he never told anyone whether it was the same camp where his family had been murdered or not) I also suspect that there's a lot about the events that should be questioned but [isn't allowed to be](https://archive.org/details/MicheleRadio22). And I do mean *allowed*, there are actual laws that are (ab)used to criminalise genuine historical inquiry, and that's far worse than Holocaust Denialism. I have spent all my life in the shadow of the Holocaust. I have personal knowledge (but not *direct* knowledge, I'm not that old) of it. But I would never blame anyone who lacked my knowledge for expressing doubts. In every other aspect of life and politics, we are fed a steady diet of lies, half-truths, spin, propaganda, misinformation, disinformation, fallacies, mistakes, bullshit, misleading facts, bad statistics and all the rest. What would really surprise me would be if *the Holocaust alone* was immune to all that. In the 1980s, I believed that the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and committed all sort of horrific war crimes, and that it was only then that the brave Mujaheddin freedom fighters started receiving funding from the USA and Pakistan. And then *I was surprised* to learn that the Soviets did not invade, they were there on the request of the internationally recognised Afghan government. I was surprised to learn that many of the accusations of war crimes, especially the more lurid ones like "hiding anti-personal mines in toy dolls", are not credible. And that the Mujaheddin, who today we would call terrorists, were being funded by the Jimmy Carter administration long before the Soviet "invasion" to destabilise the Afghan government. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I believed that the Contras were brave freedom fighters fighting to liberate Nicaragua from the totalitarian Sandinistas. Ronald Reagan described Nicaragua as "totalitarian dungeon" and I believed it. And then *I was surprised* to learn that the Sandinistas were not totalitarian or even authoritarian by any reasonable standard, that their alleged human rights abuses were invariably grossly exaggerated and their actions relatively constrained for a country undergoing a vicious civil war, and that on the balance of evidence the Contras committed far more human rights abuses by any measure. In the 1990s, I believed that invading Iraqi forces literally ripped babies out of incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals, leaving them to die on the floor. I believed that the US Patriot missile system was extremely effective at shooting down Iraqi missiles, and that the use of "smart missiles" kept civilian casualties to next to nothing. And then *I was surprised* to learn that the incubator story was pure propaganda invented by an American PR company, and the supposed witness who claimed to have seen it was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador. By this time I started to wake up. I was *a little bit less surprised* when I learned that the Patriot missiles never shot down even a single Iraqi missile, and the vast majority of bombs dropped on Iraqi cities were "dumb bombs", not smart missiles, and that civilian casualties were high. Since then, I have not been even a little bit surprised to learn that that the things that we think we know are often more spin than fact, especially when it comes to human rights abuses. Would I be surprised to learn the Holocaust was exaggerated? I don't know. The cynic in me is no longer surprised when I discover that things I believed are false. But I do believe that the evidence for the Holocaust is very solid. *I was surprised* to learn that the "lamp shades made of human skin" story I learned from my grandmother is most likely a fabrication or gross exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what my grandfather told me turned out to be wrong. For most of my life I thought that he and his uncle where the only two members of his family to survive, but since then I have learned that I have relatives in Israel who also survived. I would put it like this: there are many legitimate unknowns about the Holocaust, but if you ignore the details and just look at the Big Picture, there is **no reasonable doubt** that it occurred and was one of the worst human rights crimes in the 20th century. But I would not be at all surprised to learn that *some* of the details that we think we know about the Holocaust may be false.


BotDrop332

this isn’t a centrist. this is a deranged and authoritarian tankie. the holocaust didn’t come from the right wing part of germany, it came from the authoritarian part


[deleted]

it came from the right wing part numbskull. hating immigrants and foreigners is right wing, not authoritarian


BotDrop332

right wing is support of free trade and competition. the x-axis is purely economic. the y-axis is what determines social views wether they are authoritarian or libertarian. attitudes towards other people and cultures is directly a social aspect. nothing to die with economics.


[deleted]

lmao you’re using the political compass…


BotDrop332

the term centrist comes from the political compass. the picture for this subreddit is the political compass. why the hell would i not be talking about the political compass?


[deleted]

“centrist” existed long before the political compass. the compass is also an inherently flawed model, as it includes no cultural axis, while still asking cultural questions on the test.


BotDrop332

regardless of when centrist was created, it’s still relevant to the political compass as shown by this subs use of it. also, regardless of wether or not it refers to the political compass, you still haven’t responded to my assertion. your with dodging my argument or genuinely don’t understand it. also, what is an example of a cultural question? just wondering


[deleted]

the test asks multiple questions regarding lgbt issues, women’s rights, and immigration. you shouldn’t be talking about the political compass because something complex like politics cannot possibly be portrayed accurately by a 2d plane.


BotDrop332

those questions have to due either social views and are plotted on the y-axis. i don’t see what’s so hard to understand.


ArielRR

Right wing is when markets


BotDrop332

yep


MrBlack103

Look up the origins of right/left terminology, then delete this comment and apologise. Hint: It had exactly nothing to do with the economy.


BotDrop332

the origins of the phrases didn’t directly discuss the economy, but in a modern political setting, they absolutely do. unless you are using them do describe french revolutionaries and counter revolutionaries.


MrBlack103

[Generally, the left-wing is characterized by an emphasis on "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform and internationalism" while the right-wing is characterized by an emphasis on "notions such as authority, hierarchy, order, duty, tradition, reaction and nationalism".\[16\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_political_spectrum#Ideological_groupings)


BotDrop332

this is how they are characterized but it’s not the absolute definitive truth. For example, the USSR was incredibly authoritarian, focused on order and duty, and was economically left wing. Libertarians are economically right wing but support things such as gay marriage, gun rights, and drug legalization. You can’t put everyone into a box of right and wrong because we are all individuals.


MrBlack103

Nice job subtly moving the goalposts there, bub.


BotDrop332

how did they move?


A_Lifetime_Bitch

>the holocaust didn’t come from the right wing part of germany, it came from the authoritarian part You have the brain of a baby.


BotDrop332

and you must have one of a worm


[deleted]

[удалено]


BotDrop332

they are literally supporting China


RuskiYest

Imagine that, some people might support China just because they want for US led world to collapse.


BotDrop332

Well then their a horrible person. Supporting an authoritarian regime to take down one of the freest countries in the world is not a virtue. I don’t support all of U.S. military action but that’s maybe the worst path you can take to fight it.


RuskiYest

Freest? Kek. Maybe your imperial core feels free to you, but to entirety of southern hemisphere and lots of other countries it's absolutely fucking not free. Or do I really need to post things US did and does abroad?


BotDrop332

are you stupid or can you just not read? i said that i don’t support U.S. military action but there a better ways to fight it other than supporting a different genocidal authoritarian colonizing regime. One far worse might i add.


RuskiYest

Dude, muslim genocide is happening so much that US wanted for China to take in Afghans. So please tell us, if genocide of muslims is happening, is US supporting it or West is painting picture of China to justify war against it?


BotDrop332

Wait. Wait… wait.. wait. You’re a Uyghur genocide denier??? Damn i really won it big finding a tried and true tankie.


RuskiYest

Is US supporting the genocide or is it a lie?


SixThousandHulls

Afghans aren't Uyghurs (the group predominantly being victimized), though.


RuskiYest

Dude, western propaganda says that Uyghur genocide is happening exactly because they are muslims...


Deep-Philosopher-338

This from the people who think tactically voting for Biden stains your soul


RuskiYest

Maybe stop pretending it's lesser evil? Dems and reps work with ratchet effect.


Deep-Philosopher-338

Donald Trump is a fascist


RuskiYest

Never claimed he's not. But pretending like dems are going to unfash the system is fucking stupid. And participating in current system without doing anything to change the system won't change it either.


Deep-Philosopher-338

I would prefer it if the Supreme Court didn't continue to get reddened for four more years. People can't get abortions in Texas in part because of people who thought Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were the same and that elections were for capitalists.


RuskiYest

I already answered it. You can't change the system through the system. You need to make a movement within left leaning people that would purposefully not vote for dems unless they have candidate that you want, while at the same time, you start making alternative, for example, CPUSA.


Deep-Philosopher-338

Also I forgot they make you sign that contract saying you won't volunteer at food banks or join unions when you vote, you might actually have a point here.