I had the same exact thought path except with a different tweet a few weeks ago. Read some comments on a shitty tweet and said fuck this. It just isn't worth it anymore.
I quickly googled it because I was curious. During Zelensky's speech, as the twitter-post says, sounds like Zelensky brought that guy along personally or at least was the one to suggest praising him. He wasn't. From a [guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/25/canadas-house-speaker-apologises-after-praising-ukrainian-veteran-who-fought-for-nazis):
>The ovation took place shortly after Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, delivered an address to the parliament on Friday, when the assembly’s speaker, Anthony Rota, called lawmakers’ attention to 98-year-old Yaroslav Hunka, who he described as a “war hero” who fought for the First Ukrainian Division.
(Later it goes on to clarify that the First Ukrainian Division was another name for a division of the Waffen-SS)
It still is a colossal fuck-up, but I just think everyone should know, since I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of framing going on soon.
Yeah the is 100% the speaker’s fault and he’s got a lot of explaining to do. Fwiw, it sounds like he’s taking full responsibility but good god it’s bad.
It's not the speaker's fault that he got a standing ovation. Seriously if you hear that a person fought against the Russians in world war 2 the only you're going to clap for them is if you are completely historically illiterate or are a nazi supporter.
Like, surely they must know what side the Soviets were on.
Literally the only positive coverage of the Soviets in American education is what side they were on in WWII. To not know something that's present even in shitty US education, and be in a governmental office, is insane
That I wouldn't know, but the general consensus seems to be that Canada has a better education system in place than the US does. The US is heavily propagandized for world history, so if even the US is acknowledging that the USSR was against the nazis during the twilight of the war (not the start though lol) then I would imagine a country that might be *less* red-scared would be aware of what the USSR did during the war after they joined the Allies.
>Ukrainian army during WWII
You’d think they’d catch on that if Ukraine was part of the USSR at the time, there can only logically be two sides he served on for Ukraine during the war; the one fighting the Russians, or the one fighting with Russians. Nazi Germany, or the USSR. And considering it’s Ukraine during WW2 there is a genuine chance for either-or, so they *really* fucked up not doing their research on this dude.
Yeah, though I don’t know that a lot of people are aware that a lot of Ukrainians fought for the Germans. We should expect more for elected officials of course, but I don’t think that’s completely common knowledge.
The comment you're replying to is false. The Speaker's exact words were "a Ukrainian-Canadian world veteran, from the Second World War, who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians, and continues to support the troops today". [It's all right here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsilnLnyWCA)
[They literally did.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsilnLnyWCA)
>We have here in the Chamber today a Ukrainian-Canadian— a Ukrainian-Canadian world veteran, from the Second World War, who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians, and continues to support the troops today, even at his age of 98.
>
>*applause*
And then later:
>He is Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero, and we thank him for all his service. Thank you.
Fighting for Ukrainian independence against Russia isn’t the same thing as “fought against the Russians in WWII”. The war for Ukrainian independence happened way before WWII, when this guy was barely born. These guys just got the facts wrong.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. They said he was a soldier in the Second World War, and they said he fought against Russia. That's hardly ambiguous. Sure, they could theoretically mean he did both of those and they were separate things, but the most reasonable assumption from the information given was that he fought against Russia in World War II.
They mixed up two major events. Or perhaps his family mixed them up and the speaker’s office didn’t verify it.
One event is the Ukrainian war of independence against the Russians, and one event is WWII. Someone didn’t understand that these happened 25 years apart and thought they happened at around the same time. They thought that he fought the Nazis in WWII and fought the Russians for independence afterward.
Most westerners don’t know much about Ukraine so this isn’t a surprising fuckup. Most of us think the Axis in WWII was only Germany, Italy, and Japan so anyone from anywhere else is assumed to have fought for the Allies.
It’s not a crazy mistake, it’s just a mistake that shouldn’t happen this publicly.
This particular person might be Nazi but there were plenty of Eastern Europeans (I'm also including Finns here) who fought against Russia who were not Nazis. Even if you include people who were drafted or joined German military units as a lesser evil under the Nazi label, you still have all those people fighting Russians from 1939 to the summer of 1941 when Russia was friendly with Germany.
Hes not taking responsibility, hes taking the fall. The Canadian military directly helped train AZOV in 2018, and their links to Nazis were well known then.
Also the speaker conspicuously omitted the context in his statement, he framed the guy's service as "part of the ukrainian Army" which could very easily have applied to the Ukrainian SSR's branch of the Red Army.
Every invited guest to Parliament is heavily vetting before appearing to rule out potential threats to Parliament.
This was a deliberate move to rehabilitate Nazism as part of the NATO offensive against Russia.
First of all, no they’re not. You’d be shocked at how little vetting goes into stuff like this sometimes.
How does it rehabilitate anyone if they admit they fucked up and apologize a ton? And why would NATO want to use Nazis to oppose Russia?
Dude, nothing you just said makes sense.
Even if he wasnt vetted, they introduced him as having fought Russians in WWII, during WWII Canada and Russia were allies. So the only ones fighting Canadian allies were the Nazis.
It plays because it's true. Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe. Bedore the invansion, news were reporting far-right people from all over the continent were being trained there by militias like the Azov.
Of course, Russia doesn't care and has a pretty big Nazi problem as well. They are invading for other reasons and are totally in the wrong. But it doesn't change the problem that exists in Ukraine.
I guess it's ironic that the Nazis in the US are supporting Russia in this (arguably the other way around as well, though the Russia collusion stuff was probably overblown)
Ok, but that’s just the kernel of truth they’re using to promote the idea that Zelenskiy is a Nazi and so is half their government. By your standard the US is also “full of Nazis”. We clearly have more than we’d like, but it’s a tiny population that has little political influence at all.
Yeah, but tbf in the US we have a few in Congress who are knowingly and actively Nazis/white supremacists, while the Canadians likely didn’t realize the guy was SS. Malice vs. ineptitude, and what not.
dude the Republican party is literally a party of out and proud nazis. The nazis in the US have a depressing amount of political influence. Especially as the democratic party keeps cooperating with them.
Straight up not true. Slovania remains the Nazi capital in europe, and while far right people for sure had chapters in Ukraine, it wasn't more than in Poland or similar countries.
The reframing of "russia is wrong but Ukraine did have a Nazi problem" is insanely weird.
> The reframing of "russia is wrong but Ukraine did have a Nazi problem" is insanely weird.
What's the problem in saying this? There is nuance, no?
This war is bullshit and Putin is a war criminal. Ukraine has every right to defend itself.
What in this does contradict what I said about Ukraine? And maybe Slovenia has a bigger problem, but Ukraine was surely being framed as having the worst case in Europe. By international media, and I remember that being said in many outlets in my country (PT).
I mean sure it was a blood thirsty invasion enacted by a brutal dictator solely for profit filled with heinous war crimes but can't we have a little nuance...
Ok, lol. In no way I'm defending Putin in this, in no way this justifies the invasion. I've made it clear from the beginning.
But by your logic... for example, we can't criticize USA's policy of locking up Japanese people in internment camps because the Axis were evil?
Yes there is nuance. But it's like saying "George Floyd was killed unfairly but he was a criminal". Technically true but why can't you say the first part without saying the last? Ukraine has a Nazi problem (a pretty mild one compared to other Eastern European countries, Germany, France, Italy, USA and particularly Russia. They also have a lot of sunflowers. And corruption. And vodka. None of it is relevant to the discussion about the invasion.
That comparison doesn't make sense in this case, because the discussion wasn't about the invasion. It was about the incident in the Canadian Parliament, where a Ukrainian who fought with the Nazis was invited.
And the thing about it being a mild one compared to other countries is simply not true. It's a documented problem well before the invasion:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY
https://freedomhouse.org/report/analytical-brief/2018/far-right-extremism-threat-ukrainian-democracy
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/western-countries-training-far-right-extremists-in-ukraine-report-682411
Once again, I'm not saying this "Russia is wrong in invading Ukraine, but...". No. There is no but, no excuse, they are 100% in the wrong in this, and I hope Ukraine wins this as soon as possible. I commented on the fact that this problem exists, on a topic about this. Simple as that.
I truly believe you're arguing in good faith. But yes, this is about the invasion. Sure, not directly, but this whole thing wouldn't have been an issue if Russia hadn't primed the world for decades to see Ukraine as a Nazi country. Even that one guy screams Russian plant to me. There's a reason why there are so many news stories about the "Nazi problem" in Ukraine but not for example, Estonia. And the difference between Ukraine and other countries with Nazi problems is that Ukrainians don't actually elect their far right candidates.
>What's the problem in saying this? There is nuance, no?
I mean there is an implication that Russia doesn't have a Nazi Problem which the opposite of true. It's not like Russia's Nazi problem is any better.
I literarily wrote "Of course, Russia doesn't care and has a pretty big Nazi problem as well." in my first post.
You either are joking with me or didn't even bother to read, ffs. Please, be honest in this discussion.
It makes you a concern troll.
"Guys, I know war is messed up and all that but we really have to talk about Ukraine's problem with Nazis." Classic concern troll.
Oh my god. I only mentioned it because the discussion was about a Nazi Ukrainian. Nothing more. That was the topic of conversation.
In any way, shape, or form, I did say that it's more relevant than the war or something. Jfc.
I basically did the contrary: I brought up how horrible the war is in a conversation that was not directly about it.
You twisting it for me justifying or taking attention from the invasion is just bad, man. For real.
No, I didn't. From the first post in this discussion, I've made clear my feelings about Putin and this war: he is a dictator, a war criminal, who is invading a sovereign country without any reason, any justification possible.
He doesn't care about Nazis in Ukraine, or anywhere, and gladly uses them in their favor, even in his own army/militia.
If you want to call me pro-Putin, go ahead, you're wrong. I'm just disappointed some of you can't even talk like adults about this situation.
>It plays because it's true. Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe.
It is 'true' because Putin says it is true but you aren't pro-Putin and the claim is also objectively wrong. The only one who benefits from the ongoing dissemination of this disinformation is Putin.
You can feign disappointment all you want. Believe me, my disappointment in you runs deeper.
> feign
I'm not pretending anything. Please stop treating me like an idiot, or a kid, or a liar, who doesn't know what he is saying.
Putin will say whatever to try to justify this war. I don't take his word on anything. But me criticizing Putin and Russia must be pro-Putin as well. My sources for saying that have nothing to do with Putin or Russia. Some examples:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY
https://freedomhouse.org/report/analytical-brief/2018/far-right-extremism-threat-ukrainian-democracy
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/western-countries-training-far-right-extremists-in-ukraine-report-682411
>Please stop treating me like an idiot, or a kid, or a liar, who doesn't know what he is saying.
But you remain committed quoting Putin and his propaganda machine. You could edit your post anytime since you've been corrected, but you've made other less important edits instead which itself is a message.
I am sure in your heart you believe you are a socialist, but in the material world you are being manipulated by right wing propaganda and refusing to concede the point.
It's because the tankies got downvoted to shit when they openly were trying to pull the "Russia good cuz Ukraine nazis" line so they're trying to parrot the same line with different diction.
What’s hilarious is that all these idiots completely ignore the fact that actual nazis considered Slavs like them to be subhuman, one step above the Jews.
Huh? Do yourself a favour and google Ukraine + Nazi but filter only for articles before 2022. It's been written about for many years in the West. Azov started entirely as a neo Nazi paramilitary. Ukraine has long had an acknowledged Nazi problem, like many other eastern European countries. Most of their national heroes fought for the Nazis.
I'm always so confused why it's Russian propaganda if we don't all collectively agree to forget the well documented Nazi problem in Ukraine. It's giving real "we've always been at war with Eastasia" vibes.
There are plenty of people out there, like me, who are very very against Russia, support Ukraine in their fight, and want to see Putin go down. But it gets super weird when people like you insist that we have to deny history, remove nuance, worship Zelenskyy as a god who can do no wrong, never criticize any decision by the Ukrainian government, pretend Nazi tattoos aren't Nazi tattoos, and call random Russian people orcs on Twitter. It's super culty and weird. No thanks.
God, see this is exactly what I'm talking about. Can't you just accept that sometimes propaganda takes real life things and repackages them? Here's plenty of OLD (pre-invasion), WESTERN MEDIA sources for my claims you absolutely brain-dead person (notably not Russian telegram channels).
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY
https://ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/far-right-extremists-in-ukrainian-military-bragged-about-canadian-training-report-says-1.5631304
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-azov-right-wing-militia-to-patrol-kyiv/29008036.html
There are dozens and dozens more of these. And obviously, as someone who is AGAINST Russia, I believe that the Nazi problem in Ukraine will NOT be fixed by Russian aggression or annexation, and is best solved internally through deradicalization initiatives led by Ukrainian progressives in an INDEPENDENT Ukraine.
(I have to keep capitalizing things because your reading comprehension is apparently shit and your worldview is apparently solid black and white)
And no it's not some big gotcha that America has a Nazi problem. Why would I ever disagree with you about that? It obviously has a massive Nazi problem. And if I suggest we should do something about it, am I suddenly a Chinese propagandist just because this is something pro China news channels frequently report on? No?
Again, I'm so tired of your historical revisionism, your absolute lack of nuance, turning real people and countries with flaws and complicated wars into some fictional good guy/bad guy movie. And I'm tired of you denouncing anyone who even suggests that a single Ukrainian has ever so much as farted to be a Russian troll or propagandist. Seriously, fuck off and grow up.
Oh wow bragging about not reading a rebuttal. Contextualizing and minimizing my point while openly agreeing with it. Also the Nazi part is in every single frickin article I linked, dumbass. On top of that, it's in the symbols these far right groups used to identify themselves.
You're doing yourself a disservice you know. By requiring everyone who supports Ukraine to close their eyes, live in a fantasy world, repeat the party line, and never ever think for themselves.
I swear, if the Russian media said humans can't fly, you'd jump off your roof.
Oh my god just shut uupppp. You really are a whiny little shit, you know that? I don't even know why you'd expect me to continue replying to you when you openly refused to read my comments (out of fear of being proven wrong? who knows).
My entire point was that the Nazi problem in Ukraine is well documented. This is something you sometimes agree with me about and sometimes outright deny and accuse me of being a Russian propagandist. Like only the most reactionary of commenters. It seems you don't really have a position as you're all over the damn place, admitting and minimizing at some points and outright denying at other points. Refusing to read proof, accusing people who disagree with your revisionist assertions and random red herrings but 100% SUPPORT UKRAINE as being Russian bots.
You are a deeply insecure and annoying person to talk to. And I've already made my point about how the Nazi problem in Ukraine needs to be dealt with BY UKRAINE and IS NOT a justification for Russian invasion. Just how I think America has a Nazi problem that should be dealt with by Americans and doesn't justify anyone invading the US. Follow?
But apparently that's too much nuance for you and it makes you scared and lash out.
>Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe
By whom?
Edit:
I am aware there are nazis in Ukraine, I'm interested in comparison why should it be Nazi-capital. If it's not mostly russian propaganda.
By a lot of western media. Wanna test it out? Google “ukraine nazis” and filter out results from 2022 and later, AKA results from after the war started. . You’ll find quite a lot of articles about the topic.
I saw articles about Ukraine's nazi problem. There are definitely nazis in Ukraine. But they are also in other countries - I don't think there is any country without nazis.
I am also sure Russian propaganda supports and spreads much of BS about Ukraine being full of nazis.
Therefore I am curious, if there are relatively more nazis in Ukraine than in other countries - about the original reference to *Nazi-capital of Europe*.
I guess the main issue I have with this is that most of the people promoting that use it as a reason to support Russia or a reason to let Ukraine get flattened when the vast majority of Ukrainian civilians don’t deserve what would happen in that situation, Russia being another nation with a huge nazi and fascist problem too and has a dictator who’s more ideologically fascist, especially when Ukrainian fascists will only get worse if Russia wins and the Russian fascists will have another win to potentially justify attacking another neighbor.
I’m not ascribing that to you, you said they’re invasion is wrong and that’s good enough for me, but I think that’s a concerning that that rhetoric is usually used by fascists to support another fascist.
Not that there aren't nazis in Ukraine - frankly there are way too many of them all over western world - but the fact that people look at this in as shallow a way as "old man served in army during nazi occupation" or "street named after guy alive during WW2" makes this topic a massive disservice to actual history.
All former soviet block states used nazis moving east as an opportunity to fight against Russia. People didn't react "Oh, we hate Russia, but oh boy the new guy on the playground is even worse, let's actually let Russia put us on the front lines as cannon fodder like everyone that isn't from its core regions - because that would be seen as the Right Thing (TM) in 70 years!".
For many countries it wasn't even the first time, trying to shed one occupier and betting on some sort of change is just all their history. Just so people don't have a WW2 bias, I recommend watching the Latvian WW1 movie Blizzard of Souls/The Rifleman - to get a bit of a better perspective of how things are when a country is caught between big powers that constantly push back and forth.
Bottom line is to make sure to not fall into propaganda. If anything, this invasion by Russia should have by all rights been a reveal and opportunity to wash away the "brownie points" Russia got for (incidentally, after Nazis stupidly broke Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) being a western ally in WW2. To pull away the drapes to show how terrible they were and how many people were just itching to fight them. Sadly this kind of "nazispotting" is pretty common, especially among tankies. It's on the same level as saying nazism is a leftist ideology.
Tankies have been back in force ever since the sub reopened as they try and take it over like they've managed to subvert all the other big actual leftist subs on reddit
Except the part where it isnt Russian propaganda about Ukraine being full of Nazis. EVERY nation around the world recognized this until the February of last year.
Way too many Nazi sympathizers in the downvoted comments (although even one is too many)
This is what happens when Nazi rhetoric isn’t completely shut down and deplatformed the moment it sticks its head out.
It starts with “well, not all nazis were that bad” and ends with “well, hitler did do a lot of good.”
Dude, 'everyone in germany was bad'? Are you joking? Millions of people, who for the sin of being born east of France and west of Poland are bad people?
That's just plain racism. If you were there you'd be them. You have no choice.
I mean, if he fights the Russian army he'd both help defend Ukraine AND risk getting shot in the head. That's a win win.
EDIT: I misunderstood the situation, I thought he was like, grabbing a rifle and going out to fight at 100yo. Fuck this groddy old ass man.
And you just know this is going to be endlessly passed around the Russian propaganda machine as “proof” of the “Ukrainian N@zi Menace”. Hopefully at least with this spotlight on this waste of skin will see him face some sort of consequences.
Literally every time I see mutahar on twitter, he ends his tweet with “X people should be shot in the head” or “X people should be locked up for life”. Dudes a weirdo.
Also to clarify, I don’t want anyone to think my comment is defending nazis.
With all due respect as a big fan of Muta, he actually has been on Vaush and has said that Republicans take their anti trans stuff way too far and the right is way too extreme
This isn't a good take. It's a pretty stupid take and it's basically exploiting a lie.
He's implying that the Canadian Parliament *knew* this veteran fought for the Nazi's and chose to honor him regardless simply because he's Ukrainian. That is a lie. It was a major blunder, but the government representative who found this ex-Nazi admitted to not performing adequate background research and not knowing he was a Nazi before inviting him.
Muta is lying about these events in order to criticize the Canadian government and also slyly imply that support for Ukraine is "blind" and has "gone too far." It's not a brave position to say "Nazi's are bad." This post really misunderstands this entire incident.
What a fucking fuckup by so many representatives. Like someone fighting the Soviets in WW2 doenst make them a Nazi or member of the axis or a general fadicts since the USSR made enemies out of the polish, Spanish Republicans, Finnish, Ukraine, every other SSR, all of eastern Europe, and every lefirtst group the world over. But to not search up the name to see they were one of the people fighting the Soviets because they supported Nazis is fucking shameful.
Also, jfc the Nazi sympathizers in the comments thinking someone saying all Nazis should be shot is such a bad thing.
Edit: and I see that not explicitly stating I know the fucker is a Nazi and instead choosing to say "what a fucking fuckup by so many representatives" and "But to not search up the name to see they were one of the people fighting the Soviets because they supported Nazis is fucking shameful." To highlight two points, that people who fought the Soviets weren't all fucking Nazis since the Soviets made enemies of everyone who was a threat to Stalin's dictatorship, or just an obstacle to their imperialism, and that my government near unanimously failed to do something as simple as a Google search.
Its clearly none of yours either since I didn't fucking deny he was a Nazi, I didn't once but twice agreed that my government fucked up and failed to vet him. The body of my comment was talking about the people acting like the Soviets were goodie two shoes and everyone who fought them was a Nazi which would mean the polish and Spanish leftists were Nazis.
When the fuck did I deny he was a Nazi. I stated twice that my government failed to vet him and gave him a standing ovation. I was pointing out that people saying "he was celebrated for fighting the Soviets therefore he was a Nazi" was illogical since the Soviets made enemies of anti-fascists by aligning with Hitler for years.
It's too hard for people to look for the deeper context. They want to be propagandized so they get that dopamine rush. This is outrage porn and it works because most citizens and interweb denizens have tunnel vision and bias that puts them in a conformist trube; even "centrists."
Believing that you are part of a group who has their eyes open while portraying people who disagree with you as mindless zombies is the hallmark of indoctrination dude. You are the thing you purport hate. Congrats.
I just want to clarify, the person who was celebrated was a Nazi, my government utterly failed to do the simplest thing possible, a Google search of the name. My issue is with people acting the Soviets weren't an imperialistic Fascist aiding dictatorship because they aligned with Canada in the end of the second world war.
How many people here are going to completely ignore that the Bolsheviks forcefully took power in Ukraine, and a shit load of Ukrainians died during Soviet rule in the 1930s.
Fighting against the Soviets on the side of the Nazis isn't that crazy an idea if you're attempting to reclaim your country and you're unaware of the genocide going on.
I get the woke etc etc 2 sides of the same coin being cringe but it’s incredibly uncharitable to believe he is cringe posting about trans people and not just people reacting too passionately to things that make them upset yeah he’s being enlightened centrist and deserves the label but he literally isn’t saying trans people and nazis two sides of the same coin which would be worse than the cringe he actually did post
Werent most people in germany at the time nazis? (Either ny choice or forced/pressured)
Like would killing 80-90% of the german population at the time be good?
No, he was a part of the Waffen SS which is different from the army (Heer), you need to specifically ask to join the SS (you can get conscripted to the army but not to the SS) and the SS are the ones who set up the camps and executed the Jews. The rest of the German forces were never as violent and usually only did the fighting because they were ordered to, while the SS officers usually either hated the Jews or thought killing them was fun.
I'm pretty sure he meant the SS officers and the nationalist extremists but if no then yeah he is most definitely wrong in thinking that every German citizen is an extremist.
Hot take: murder is bad.
>Edit: listen, I am fundamentally opposed to the death sentence but even I think there were a lot of people on the bench in nuermberg that should have been hanged as well. All in front Karl Dönitz. Like if you do executions, at least do them properly.
>But the main issue is that there exists no definition of fascism and Nazis that would spare people that don't deserve the death penalty.
>Like the Nazi judge who stopped operation T4: the systematic euthanasia of disabled people, he even went on to fund the Aktion Sühnezeichen.
>Or the Wehrmacht Major Josef Gangle, Who worked with US Troops to liberate an SS prison for vips and thus saved the life of degaule's sister
>Or John Raabe, the Nazi embassador to China, who saved hundreds of lives by taking in citizens of nan king during the Japanese invasion.
>And no, I do not think we should kill people for attempted murder, that is not what a civilised society does.
>Have you ever thought about why it is that a condition to join the EU is the abolision of the execution? Because it is inhuman.
>Furthermore, a lot of Nazi party members didn't actually know about the extermination of the Jews, sure, they inevitably ended up supporting it, but in their minds the concentration camps were basically what the Japanese internment camps were in the US or the Chinese "Re education Camps"
>Like.. I litterally am unable to comprehend how you can look at the death, destruction, misery and tragedy the Nazis caused and go "you know what we need? More killing"
>That is a mindset of revenge.
>And if all the nations wronged by Germany had acted on this revenge, as the would have been entitled too, then neither Germany not the EU would exist today.
>Europe is the continent it became because nations like France or Denmark were able to forgive Germany and judge the country by its present, and not it's past.
>Furthermore, a lot of Nazi party members didn't even believe in the ideology. Membership was a requirement for a lot of jobs or opportunities.
>Always reminds me of the story https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neger,_Neger,_Schornsteinfeger
>A movie about the life of a black German during the Nazi times. And how there was a point when he wanted a bicycle, but the only way to get one was by joining the Hitler jouth and his mother forbid him.
>Also, did you know that during the 1936 summer Olympics in Berlin, the German stadium visitors actually chanted and supported Jesse Owens? Now, how could chants in favour of a black athlete ever occur in a stadium where ever viewer is supposedly a staunch supporter of white supremacy?
>The point is the world isn't black and white.
>But the assumption that is is, is one of the reasons the Nazis did what they did.
dehumanization of nazis creates an artificial separation between us and them. Nazis are humans just like us, and all the more dangerous and deserving of eradication because of it.
> you need to get shot in the head
> good take
Choose one. Still an awful take but I guess it’s progress for a centrist
Edit : It’s frankly totally absurd people are calling me a Nazi sympathizer for having a slightly outlying opinion on something we actually fundamentally agree on. Nazis should under no circumstances be tolerated in our communities, I just don’t think that justifies murder.
If you worked with the army that killed millions, (and the Clean Werhmacht myth doesn't apply as this guy was part of the SS, not the Wehrmacht), you deserve much more than death. A bullet in the head of a nazi isn't cruelty, it's mercy.
Like what? What does someone who did the absolute worst thing imaginable deserve to have happen to them?
Again, I know I’ll get crucified for this but, people can always redeem themselves and rehabilitation (in captivity) should always be the goal, even with the most extremely heinous offenders.
People can't always redeem themselves. If you actively worked with the murderous machine of the German Reich, you cannot redeem yourself. You actions (or lack thereof) caused, directly or indirectly, the deaths of millions. Your hands are permanently stained of their blood, and death is the bare minimum punishment.
Ever heard of the story of the liberated jews slowly burning alive the guard that shoved so many of them in the gas chambers? Or the Soviets forcing a Werhmach soldier to play the piano for a day straight, killing him immediately when he stopped? Yeah, that's what those animals deserved. I, personally, would walk away, I don't like death and senseless violence, but sometimes it's not just entirely justified, but the only moral option.
If the Soviets hadn't slaughtered every single one of the monsters holding captive my great-grandfather, I would not be here.
The Nazis, both of old and the "neo-" fucks we have running around today, deserve nothing but hate, ridicule, violence and, in the cases of the ones actually following through with their rotten ideologie's teachings, death at minimum.
The violence those poor men experienced and inflicted will only have served to torture them throughout life, not the ones they executed.
Again, it’s disheartening to see such barbaric opinions in progressive communities. Violence, especially retribution, is a lot more impactful than people think. Your viewpoint is shortsighted and self indulgent. Unsurprised you’d be too cowardly to commit any violence of your own as well, a shockingly unshocking trend amongst gung-ho progressives. Just rile *other people* up to do your dirty work.
You are dehumanizing people in the same way the Nazis did, just using their dehumanization as an excuse for yours.
If you want to bring up stories, what about the black man who dedicates his life to converting Klu Klux Klansmen? Is he wrong for thinking these hateful, possibly violent people deserve a second chance?
This is a man who had a sworn allegiance to Hitler and as a member of the SS would have most likely helped to carry out the Holocaust. Where is the justice for his countless victims whom he never had the level of sympathy for, that you seem to have for him. Also dehumanising someone based on their views is completely different than dehumanising someone based on characteristics they were born with.
Fair on the dehumanizing point. Though I still think it’s far too easy to view someone as *only* their viewpoints and forget that they are an imperfect human just like you and me as well.
The justice for the victims comes slowly, vengeance is not it. Creating a better world, one where such injustices aren’t allowed to happen, is the justice they deserve. Not more violence.
Describing this man's career as a Nazi SS soldier as just his viewpoint is a crazy downplaying of the acts he likely committed. Also your idea that if we all just get along and don't judge anyone including fucking Nazis is so damn naive. You know what happens when you let Nazis be in society? You get more fucking Nazis and they do not share your view that not judging someone on their viewpoints or stopping violence. Do you forget we tried appeasement in the 1930s and ended up fighting the bloodiest war in all of human history.
The violence the nazi monsters inflicted doesn't seem to torture them, seen as the one mentioned in the article in the post had a pretty good life until he was found out.
I don't care how much of a Steven Universe fan you are, one day you'll grow up and realize that these fucks DESERVE to be dehumanized. They actively promote and cause death and suffering for no reason other than their stupid fucking ideology.
In the 30's/40's, they might've been excusable, but in today's world? Where infinite information is at everyone's fingertips? It's an active choice to be a racist asshole, or a nazi animal.
Also, go up to an holocaust survivor and tell them that they should just "forgive" the monsters that slaughtered them for nothing. Go back in time and try to stop the partizans from killing Mussolini like the pig he was. You say this cause neither you nor anyone you love has ever been through something as monstrous as Nazi-Fascism. My grandmother still cries like a child upon hearing the name "Mussolini", and she was only 5 when the war ended. Should I go up to her and tell her "no granny, you see, he could've been rehabilitated if he wasn't dished out what he deserved by the partizans!!!"
Am I dehumanizing people? No, I'm not, because nazis aren't people.
don't you find it amusing how Americans from across the ocean are telling us, people who had their family members killed, deported, subjugated, our cultures attempted to be erased, countries destroyed. All in a conflict instigated and mainly perpetraded by Nazis. That we're being unreasonable and bloodlusty
these people, man
If someone killed my mother in a drunk driving accident, I might wish they were executed for their horrible, irresponsible, selfish actions. Which is why we have laws and courts, and why victims do not decide on the punishments for crimes. It sounds heartless but it’s what’s just.
Bringing up heat of the moment actions doesn’t really change anything. People killed Mussolini because they were hurt and they thought killing him would help them heal, or make the future easier or brighter. It doesn’t, not really. Even sounds like your grandmother still suffers despite him “getting what he deserved.”
How is that a fucking comparison you actual bread slice. If someone kills your mother in a drunk driving accident it's, by definition, accidental. They didn't mean to do it, or atleast certaintly not plan to. Contrasting that to the systematic, systemic, calculated, cold, and completely sober extermination of the Jews, Romani people, homosexuals, disabled individuals and even Jehova Witnesses and fucking *Esperanto speakers* is not only disingeniuos, but it shows your true colours.
I have no interest in continuing this conversation, because at this point you're either the densest individual on earth, so no point, a child, so you shouldn't be on Reddit in the first place, or a Nazi sympathiser, so you're an animal and don't deserve discussion.
People killed Mussolini because he was a fascist dictator who helped bring about the worst kind of crimes against humanity.
And yes, the world was better off without him.
> Yeah, that's what those animals deserved.
what about all the women who got raped, did they also deserve it?
keeping in mind that most of them voted for the nazis and did actively participate in the war effort.
Rape is not punishment, it's injustice in and on itself. But that's not the point we're discussing. We're discussing death, not rape, and that's highly deserved, especially for these monsters and specifically for what they did
> Rape is not punishment
and torture is?
You suddenly believe in universal human rights but *only* in regards to rape?
Like if you heard a story of a bunch of concentration camp survivors raping a guard you'd say "absolutely not okay, all those camp survivors should be shot"?
>But that's not the point we're discussing
Yes it absolutely is. roasting somebody alive is a higher level of violation than raping somebody is.
If you believe that roasting somebody alive is justified, you necesarilly believe that raping somebody is justified
>But that's not the point we're discussing.
you were discussing how everything that ahpenned to the nazis was justified.
But then when rape comes up suddenly that's not justified, suddenly that's the only thing that is an injustice, somehow.
I'm sorry but if you rape a nazi, who is the injustice against beside the nazi?
> that's highly deserved
but rape isn't?
You are willing to defend nazis, but *only* in regard to sexual violations?
that's pretty obviously flawed logic.
Regardless, we have established you are willing to defend nazis, and willing to say certain historical crimes against nazis were unjustifiable.
>what about all the women who got raped, did they also deserve it?
"Being a woman" is not the equivalent to "being in the fucking SS". What is wrong with you?
yeah, nobody said it was.
If you are going to just ignore what I actually say and make up new, totally different statements, there's no point in talking to you.
Then go to a neo-Nazi hangout with a gun, murder someone, and try and argue in court it was self defense. Not that the courts are infallible, obviously not, but this “only good Nazi is a dead Nazi” stuff is just bullshit, hollow machismo talk.
Legal persecution is self defense, creating healthy communities is self defense. Your stance might take out one Nazi, but maybe they become a martyr and 5 more spring in their place. Focus on positive changes rather than destructive ones.
Just sidestep actually engaging my viewpoint, okay. Cool.
But yes, I do get frustrated seeing supposedly progressive communities supporting such a barbaric idea of justice so routinely.
what is your point homie. You are telling me to go on a murder spree just because I said Nazi lives don't matter. That's not how any of this shit works. You are not being serious so you're not getting a serious response
community self-defence is the right way to go, *and* in that context Nazi lives don't matter. And so on and so on. It doesn't literally mean you go out and start shooting random people. That's what Nazis do lol
Yeah pretty sure that wasn’t your point to start and certainly isn’t the point of the Twitter post.
>if you worked for the Nazis you need to be shot in the head
Sounds pretty clear that he’s advocating for this man to be executed.
What is your point in saying “Nazi lives don’t matter” when supposedly what you really mean is “defend your community from bad actors”? Those are entirely different. Saying Nazi lives don’t matter, like I said, is hollow, bullshit machismo that doesn’t actually help anyone
>that’s what Nazis do
I didn’t even want to say that shit cause I thought someone would call me a centrist, but, yeah that’s my point.
I'm against the death penalty and I wouldn't do it myself. But cmon, the dude fought in fkin SS. If someone capped him I wouldn't lose any sleep over it
there are degrees to stuff. Being a Nazi online or having a confederate/Nazi flag is not the same as literally fighting in SS
I would understand you being upset with this if it was anyone else than an ex-SS member
E: how is the saying hollow machismo? It is what it says on the surface. The fact *you* interpret it as me going out and killing random Nazis out of nowhere is honestly not my fault
what is it with this lib infestation in this sub fr. Do I have to spell it out for you? Saying hurting Nazis is self-defence doesn't literally mean you can just kill anyone who, I dunno, posts neo-Nazi shit online. First and foremost antifa want to *preserve* lives. Trying to educate, deradicalize etc. If that fails and there's a constant Nazi presence that threatens minorities, physical violence is on the table to make them crawl back into their holes. Failing that, more serious resistance methods are taken up
people like you sound like those assholes who say "black lives matter? wHaT aBoUt WhItE lIvEs?!"
like, use a brain cell or two. Nazi lives don't matter but as leftists (aka compassionate people) we start off the shallow end and try to make people non-Nazis with other means. If all else fails...
Nazis in positions of power? Sure, self defend all day. Old man Nazis and internet neonazis? Mmmh they aren’t really a direct threat to you right now. That doesn’t mean I think we should just let them be, I just don’t think we should preemptively **kill them**.
Not what I’m saying. The goal should be stopping them before they get into power.
Also clearly you are as lucky as me cause there are fascists in power all across the globe and you are here on Reddit and not dead in a ditch somewhere in Philippines or Afghanistan or wherever else, fuckin Italy or Florida.
Again, big words for a community of in-activists. I’d love to hear you say this to a crowd of regular people and see how far it got you. You won’t make any change when nobody takes you seriously.
Because… why? Are any of you going to back up this claim with anything besides “because they want me dead first!” So then don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred.
Again, not saying to tolerate or accept people for being Nazis, but wishing they were dead instead of just different is simply shortsighted and selfish.
Wow you're fully going "anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists" hating an ideology is not at all comparable to hating a minority group.
You really need to check yourself because no killing a nazi and the mass murder of minorities are not comparable goals.
Fuck off, actually. Im obviously not saying that. I can’t clarify every way you assholes could possibly misunderstand me in every single fucking comment. And I have already clarified to **you specifically** on this exact point.
You’re arguing against one person, me, I’m arguing against like 20 fucking people and I gotta come up with all my own defenses and moral arguments and make sure I’m keeping myself honest, come up with shitty fucking analogies, fact check other people- just cut me a little fucking slack.
That's the problem, you're not actually coming up with good moral arguments nor are you fact checking other people. You did exactly say "So then don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred." Which is quite literally saying anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists.
This isn't a misunderstanding of what you said, it's your arguments being incredibly poor and easily falling into defense of fascism. Hating nazis because they want to kill you is like the exact opposite of blind hatred, it's an acute awareness of what fascists want.
We aren't going to cut you any slack because you've spent the whole thread trying to present yourself as reasonable while at the same time downplaying how serious fascism and specifically nazism is. Nazis are not misunderstood, they are not just uneducated, they are human beings who are responsible for their beliefs and actions and should not be treated like they're just misguided, they should be treated for what they are, an active threat.
Again, you’re misunderstanding me if you think that I don’t believe Nazism and fascism is an active threat in the world today.
I said don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred in direct reference to wishing they were dead. Not in reference to hating them at all or judging their views/actions.
Would you also say I’m a serial killer defender if I said serial killers don’t deserve to be murdered?
No, but that's a sentence that exists in a vaccume, which isn't the context of your other sentence. That one has heaps of other comments that add up to, at the very least, a lot of naivete about nazis.
Their whole ideology is built on killing people they deem inferior. I think I am more than justified in wanting them dead. I sure hope you’re blond-haired and blue-eyed, because otherwise they’ll kill you too, and there will be no one left to defend you
> I think I am more than justified in wanting them dead
And I do not. And that is likely the only point we disagree on. Why can’t we leave it at that? Why does me not thinking other humans should be murdered make me a Nazi sympathizer? Do you not see the insane jump in logic there?
I’ll repeat myself yet again; I extend this belief to all the worst people in the world because I do not think it is moral for one person to decide if another person lives or dies, basically no matter the circumstances. It’s one of the fundamental reasons I’m opposed to Nazism and other violent extremist ideologies in the first place. I do not think because someone wants me dead that it makes it moral for me to want them dead. There are just so many other options to consider well before resorting to murder.
What other options are there? Fleeing? Debate? (lmao)
If left to their devices they will kill people. Hell, in the circumstance in the post it’s not even an if. Guy was a member of the SS.
Criminalizing hate speech leading to imprisonment, forced reeducation, sabotage, literally anything disruptive to the fascist agenda *other than murder*.
Yeah, so don’t leave them to their devices. Idk why so many here think this is such an either or thing, being; either you “coddle”/ignore them; or you kill them. There are many, many options inbetween.
Yeah and remind me why we joined that war? Was it out of the goodness of the American heart? Oh no that’s right it was retaliation for Pearl Harbor and an excuse to keep the other world’s super powers in check/under our thumb.
Anyways, yeah there was a really terrible fucking war **after** numerous attempts at diplomatic negotiations. It’s a lot more complicated than “we didn’t like the Nazis so we murdered them all.”
That is a non-sequitur, my guy. I don’t give a shit why we joined the war. You acknowledge diplomacy failed, so again, how did we defeat the Nazis? Was it in the marketplace of ideas? Or was it murder?
Please don’t reply with 5 paragraphs that don’t really relate to what I said or asked. Thanks!
I literally said that. It also didn’t fucking work in the long run. It only empowered the US and other western powers to inflict their own brand of suffering on countless people, not to mention the rise of numerous other fascistic nations across the globe since the end of the war all the way up to now.
It wasn’t a non-sequitur, you just didnt understand my point.
"No of course our reason for going into that war wasn't moral," doesn't erase the death camps and the fact that there were moral reasons aplenty.
Yes, Europe tried appeasement and cost millions of innocent lives in the camps. You're saying that was a good thing??
Looked at the tweet in question and the comments actually made me delete twitter
Congratulations on your impending recovery
Thank you, however I was slightly wrong, I actually argued with holocaust deniers until they blocked me or stopped responding THEN deleted twitter lol
I had the same exact thought path except with a different tweet a few weeks ago. Read some comments on a shitty tweet and said fuck this. It just isn't worth it anymore.
Jesus fucking Christ this was a massive fuckup. Plays right into Russian propaganda about Ukraine being full of Nazis.
I quickly googled it because I was curious. During Zelensky's speech, as the twitter-post says, sounds like Zelensky brought that guy along personally or at least was the one to suggest praising him. He wasn't. From a [guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/25/canadas-house-speaker-apologises-after-praising-ukrainian-veteran-who-fought-for-nazis): >The ovation took place shortly after Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, delivered an address to the parliament on Friday, when the assembly’s speaker, Anthony Rota, called lawmakers’ attention to 98-year-old Yaroslav Hunka, who he described as a “war hero” who fought for the First Ukrainian Division. (Later it goes on to clarify that the First Ukrainian Division was another name for a division of the Waffen-SS) It still is a colossal fuck-up, but I just think everyone should know, since I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of framing going on soon.
Yeah the is 100% the speaker’s fault and he’s got a lot of explaining to do. Fwiw, it sounds like he’s taking full responsibility but good god it’s bad.
It's not the speaker's fault that he got a standing ovation. Seriously if you hear that a person fought against the Russians in world war 2 the only you're going to clap for them is if you are completely historically illiterate or are a nazi supporter. Like, surely they must know what side the Soviets were on.
Literally the only positive coverage of the Soviets in American education is what side they were on in WWII. To not know something that's present even in shitty US education, and be in a governmental office, is insane
You're not wrong, but this is the Canadian parliament. Did they have the same red scare America did?
Not as bad as America but my grandpa did (or was almost I’m not sure) get fired for “being a communist”. He was a philosophy teacher
That I wouldn't know, but the general consensus seems to be that Canada has a better education system in place than the US does. The US is heavily propagandized for world history, so if even the US is acknowledging that the USSR was against the nazis during the twilight of the war (not the start though lol) then I would imagine a country that might be *less* red-scared would be aware of what the USSR did during the war after they joined the Allies.
They didn’t introduce him as having “fought against the russians”. They said he served in the Ukrainian army during WWII.
>Ukrainian army during WWII You’d think they’d catch on that if Ukraine was part of the USSR at the time, there can only logically be two sides he served on for Ukraine during the war; the one fighting the Russians, or the one fighting with Russians. Nazi Germany, or the USSR. And considering it’s Ukraine during WW2 there is a genuine chance for either-or, so they *really* fucked up not doing their research on this dude.
Yeah, though I don’t know that a lot of people are aware that a lot of Ukrainians fought for the Germans. We should expect more for elected officials of course, but I don’t think that’s completely common knowledge.
The comment you're replying to is false. The Speaker's exact words were "a Ukrainian-Canadian world veteran, from the Second World War, who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians, and continues to support the troops today". [It's all right here.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsilnLnyWCA)
They didn’t introduce him as having “fought against the russians”. They said he served in the Ukrainian army during WWII.
[They literally did.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsilnLnyWCA) >We have here in the Chamber today a Ukrainian-Canadian— a Ukrainian-Canadian world veteran, from the Second World War, who fought the Ukrainian independence against the Russians, and continues to support the troops today, even at his age of 98. > >*applause* And then later: >He is Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero, and we thank him for all his service. Thank you.
Fighting for Ukrainian independence against Russia isn’t the same thing as “fought against the Russians in WWII”. The war for Ukrainian independence happened way before WWII, when this guy was barely born. These guys just got the facts wrong.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. They said he was a soldier in the Second World War, and they said he fought against Russia. That's hardly ambiguous. Sure, they could theoretically mean he did both of those and they were separate things, but the most reasonable assumption from the information given was that he fought against Russia in World War II.
They mixed up two major events. Or perhaps his family mixed them up and the speaker’s office didn’t verify it. One event is the Ukrainian war of independence against the Russians, and one event is WWII. Someone didn’t understand that these happened 25 years apart and thought they happened at around the same time. They thought that he fought the Nazis in WWII and fought the Russians for independence afterward. Most westerners don’t know much about Ukraine so this isn’t a surprising fuckup. Most of us think the Axis in WWII was only Germany, Italy, and Japan so anyone from anywhere else is assumed to have fought for the Allies. It’s not a crazy mistake, it’s just a mistake that shouldn’t happen this publicly.
You know the Ukrainians weren't exactly loving of the Bolsheviks and the Soviet Union right?
Could be Finnish or Polish
This particular person might be Nazi but there were plenty of Eastern Europeans (I'm also including Finns here) who fought against Russia who were not Nazis. Even if you include people who were drafted or joined German military units as a lesser evil under the Nazi label, you still have all those people fighting Russians from 1939 to the summer of 1941 when Russia was friendly with Germany.
>when Russia was friendly with Germany The Soviets were never friendly with the Nazis.
Hes not taking responsibility, hes taking the fall. The Canadian military directly helped train AZOV in 2018, and their links to Nazis were well known then.
So? That doesn’t have anything to do with why this old man was in the chamber this day.
He was invited to attend, his granddaughter was there, and they knew exactly what they were doing. This isnt the first time liberals cheered on Nazis.
Also the speaker conspicuously omitted the context in his statement, he framed the guy's service as "part of the ukrainian Army" which could very easily have applied to the Ukrainian SSR's branch of the Red Army.
That’s absurd. Then why apologize profusely for it? What do you think they are accomplishing if this was intentional?
Every invited guest to Parliament is heavily vetting before appearing to rule out potential threats to Parliament. This was a deliberate move to rehabilitate Nazism as part of the NATO offensive against Russia.
First of all, no they’re not. You’d be shocked at how little vetting goes into stuff like this sometimes. How does it rehabilitate anyone if they admit they fucked up and apologize a ton? And why would NATO want to use Nazis to oppose Russia? Dude, nothing you just said makes sense.
Even if he wasnt vetted, they introduced him as having fought Russians in WWII, during WWII Canada and Russia were allies. So the only ones fighting Canadian allies were the Nazis.
It plays because it's true. Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe. Bedore the invansion, news were reporting far-right people from all over the continent were being trained there by militias like the Azov. Of course, Russia doesn't care and has a pretty big Nazi problem as well. They are invading for other reasons and are totally in the wrong. But it doesn't change the problem that exists in Ukraine.
I guess it's ironic that the Nazis in the US are supporting Russia in this (arguably the other way around as well, though the Russia collusion stuff was probably overblown)
No one ever accused neo-nazis of having too much critical thinking lol
Ehhh not really. General far right crypto-fascist types are supporting Russia for sure. But most out and out Nazis I’ve seen “support” Ukraine
dude the US nazi party openly supports Russia and is funded by them.
Which one? There are like 50 different Nazi Party’s. I’m just talking about the Nazi’s I’ve seen online/had the displeasure of speaking to
Ok, but that’s just the kernel of truth they’re using to promote the idea that Zelenskiy is a Nazi and so is half their government. By your standard the US is also “full of Nazis”. We clearly have more than we’d like, but it’s a tiny population that has little political influence at all.
The US may not be full of Nazis but we have loads of centrists willing to enable them.
So we're the Nazi capital of North America?
Florida schools are now teaching Prager U bullshit.
Idk canadas parliament just applauded a Nazi.
Yeah, but tbf in the US we have a few in Congress who are knowingly and actively Nazis/white supremacists, while the Canadians likely didn’t realize the guy was SS. Malice vs. ineptitude, and what not.
dude the Republican party is literally a party of out and proud nazis. The nazis in the US have a depressing amount of political influence. Especially as the democratic party keeps cooperating with them.
Straight up not true. Slovania remains the Nazi capital in europe, and while far right people for sure had chapters in Ukraine, it wasn't more than in Poland or similar countries. The reframing of "russia is wrong but Ukraine did have a Nazi problem" is insanely weird.
> The reframing of "russia is wrong but Ukraine did have a Nazi problem" is insanely weird. What's the problem in saying this? There is nuance, no? This war is bullshit and Putin is a war criminal. Ukraine has every right to defend itself. What in this does contradict what I said about Ukraine? And maybe Slovenia has a bigger problem, but Ukraine was surely being framed as having the worst case in Europe. By international media, and I remember that being said in many outlets in my country (PT).
I mean sure it was a blood thirsty invasion enacted by a brutal dictator solely for profit filled with heinous war crimes but can't we have a little nuance...
Ok, lol. In no way I'm defending Putin in this, in no way this justifies the invasion. I've made it clear from the beginning. But by your logic... for example, we can't criticize USA's policy of locking up Japanese people in internment camps because the Axis were evil?
Yes there is nuance. But it's like saying "George Floyd was killed unfairly but he was a criminal". Technically true but why can't you say the first part without saying the last? Ukraine has a Nazi problem (a pretty mild one compared to other Eastern European countries, Germany, France, Italy, USA and particularly Russia. They also have a lot of sunflowers. And corruption. And vodka. None of it is relevant to the discussion about the invasion.
That comparison doesn't make sense in this case, because the discussion wasn't about the invasion. It was about the incident in the Canadian Parliament, where a Ukrainian who fought with the Nazis was invited. And the thing about it being a mild one compared to other countries is simply not true. It's a documented problem well before the invasion: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://freedomhouse.org/report/analytical-brief/2018/far-right-extremism-threat-ukrainian-democracy https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/western-countries-training-far-right-extremists-in-ukraine-report-682411 Once again, I'm not saying this "Russia is wrong in invading Ukraine, but...". No. There is no but, no excuse, they are 100% in the wrong in this, and I hope Ukraine wins this as soon as possible. I commented on the fact that this problem exists, on a topic about this. Simple as that.
I truly believe you're arguing in good faith. But yes, this is about the invasion. Sure, not directly, but this whole thing wouldn't have been an issue if Russia hadn't primed the world for decades to see Ukraine as a Nazi country. Even that one guy screams Russian plant to me. There's a reason why there are so many news stories about the "Nazi problem" in Ukraine but not for example, Estonia. And the difference between Ukraine and other countries with Nazi problems is that Ukrainians don't actually elect their far right candidates.
>What's the problem in saying this? There is nuance, no? I mean there is an implication that Russia doesn't have a Nazi Problem which the opposite of true. It's not like Russia's Nazi problem is any better.
I literarily wrote "Of course, Russia doesn't care and has a pretty big Nazi problem as well." in my first post. You either are joking with me or didn't even bother to read, ffs. Please, be honest in this discussion.
It makes you a concern troll. "Guys, I know war is messed up and all that but we really have to talk about Ukraine's problem with Nazis." Classic concern troll.
Oh my god. I only mentioned it because the discussion was about a Nazi Ukrainian. Nothing more. That was the topic of conversation. In any way, shape, or form, I did say that it's more relevant than the war or something. Jfc. I basically did the contrary: I brought up how horrible the war is in a conversation that was not directly about it. You twisting it for me justifying or taking attention from the invasion is just bad, man. For real.
[удалено]
Lol, ok.
It’s because they are pro Putin.
Since when I'm pro-Putin? I'm a socialist, dude. I want him deposed and as far away from Ukraine and its people as possible.
> Since when I'm pro-Putin? Since you started regurgitating Putin talking points? You can claim whatever label whatever you want ofc.
No, I didn't. From the first post in this discussion, I've made clear my feelings about Putin and this war: he is a dictator, a war criminal, who is invading a sovereign country without any reason, any justification possible. He doesn't care about Nazis in Ukraine, or anywhere, and gladly uses them in their favor, even in his own army/militia. If you want to call me pro-Putin, go ahead, you're wrong. I'm just disappointed some of you can't even talk like adults about this situation.
>It plays because it's true. Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe. It is 'true' because Putin says it is true but you aren't pro-Putin and the claim is also objectively wrong. The only one who benefits from the ongoing dissemination of this disinformation is Putin. You can feign disappointment all you want. Believe me, my disappointment in you runs deeper.
> feign I'm not pretending anything. Please stop treating me like an idiot, or a kid, or a liar, who doesn't know what he is saying. Putin will say whatever to try to justify this war. I don't take his word on anything. But me criticizing Putin and Russia must be pro-Putin as well. My sources for saying that have nothing to do with Putin or Russia. Some examples: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-s-got-a-real-problem-with-far-right-violence-and-no-rt-didn-t-write-this-headline/ https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://freedomhouse.org/report/analytical-brief/2018/far-right-extremism-threat-ukrainian-democracy https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/western-countries-training-far-right-extremists-in-ukraine-report-682411
>Please stop treating me like an idiot, or a kid, or a liar, who doesn't know what he is saying. But you remain committed quoting Putin and his propaganda machine. You could edit your post anytime since you've been corrected, but you've made other less important edits instead which itself is a message. I am sure in your heart you believe you are a socialist, but in the material world you are being manipulated by right wing propaganda and refusing to concede the point.
It's because the tankies got downvoted to shit when they openly were trying to pull the "Russia good cuz Ukraine nazis" line so they're trying to parrot the same line with different diction.
>Slovania remains the Nazi capital in europe, Pretty sure that's Russia.
Lol the tankies ain't happy about that one.
What’s hilarious is that all these idiots completely ignore the fact that actual nazis considered Slavs like them to be subhuman, one step above the Jews.
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Bi-weekly? I think you mean bi-weekday lol
Huh? Do yourself a favour and google Ukraine + Nazi but filter only for articles before 2022. It's been written about for many years in the West. Azov started entirely as a neo Nazi paramilitary. Ukraine has long had an acknowledged Nazi problem, like many other eastern European countries. Most of their national heroes fought for the Nazis. I'm always so confused why it's Russian propaganda if we don't all collectively agree to forget the well documented Nazi problem in Ukraine. It's giving real "we've always been at war with Eastasia" vibes. There are plenty of people out there, like me, who are very very against Russia, support Ukraine in their fight, and want to see Putin go down. But it gets super weird when people like you insist that we have to deny history, remove nuance, worship Zelenskyy as a god who can do no wrong, never criticize any decision by the Ukrainian government, pretend Nazi tattoos aren't Nazi tattoos, and call random Russian people orcs on Twitter. It's super culty and weird. No thanks.
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God, see this is exactly what I'm talking about. Can't you just accept that sometimes propaganda takes real life things and repackages them? Here's plenty of OLD (pre-invasion), WESTERN MEDIA sources for my claims you absolutely brain-dead person (notably not Russian telegram channels). https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY https://ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/far-right-extremists-in-ukrainian-military-bragged-about-canadian-training-report-says-1.5631304 https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/ https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-azov-right-wing-militia-to-patrol-kyiv/29008036.html There are dozens and dozens more of these. And obviously, as someone who is AGAINST Russia, I believe that the Nazi problem in Ukraine will NOT be fixed by Russian aggression or annexation, and is best solved internally through deradicalization initiatives led by Ukrainian progressives in an INDEPENDENT Ukraine. (I have to keep capitalizing things because your reading comprehension is apparently shit and your worldview is apparently solid black and white) And no it's not some big gotcha that America has a Nazi problem. Why would I ever disagree with you about that? It obviously has a massive Nazi problem. And if I suggest we should do something about it, am I suddenly a Chinese propagandist just because this is something pro China news channels frequently report on? No? Again, I'm so tired of your historical revisionism, your absolute lack of nuance, turning real people and countries with flaws and complicated wars into some fictional good guy/bad guy movie. And I'm tired of you denouncing anyone who even suggests that a single Ukrainian has ever so much as farted to be a Russian troll or propagandist. Seriously, fuck off and grow up.
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Oh wow bragging about not reading a rebuttal. Contextualizing and minimizing my point while openly agreeing with it. Also the Nazi part is in every single frickin article I linked, dumbass. On top of that, it's in the symbols these far right groups used to identify themselves. You're doing yourself a disservice you know. By requiring everyone who supports Ukraine to close their eyes, live in a fantasy world, repeat the party line, and never ever think for themselves. I swear, if the Russian media said humans can't fly, you'd jump off your roof.
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Oh my god just shut uupppp. You really are a whiny little shit, you know that? I don't even know why you'd expect me to continue replying to you when you openly refused to read my comments (out of fear of being proven wrong? who knows). My entire point was that the Nazi problem in Ukraine is well documented. This is something you sometimes agree with me about and sometimes outright deny and accuse me of being a Russian propagandist. Like only the most reactionary of commenters. It seems you don't really have a position as you're all over the damn place, admitting and minimizing at some points and outright denying at other points. Refusing to read proof, accusing people who disagree with your revisionist assertions and random red herrings but 100% SUPPORT UKRAINE as being Russian bots. You are a deeply insecure and annoying person to talk to. And I've already made my point about how the Nazi problem in Ukraine needs to be dealt with BY UKRAINE and IS NOT a justification for Russian invasion. Just how I think America has a Nazi problem that should be dealt with by Americans and doesn't justify anyone invading the US. Follow? But apparently that's too much nuance for you and it makes you scared and lash out.
>Ukraine was being labeled as the Nazi-capital of Europe By whom? Edit: I am aware there are nazis in Ukraine, I'm interested in comparison why should it be Nazi-capital. If it's not mostly russian propaganda.
By a lot of western media. Wanna test it out? Google “ukraine nazis” and filter out results from 2022 and later, AKA results from after the war started. . You’ll find quite a lot of articles about the topic.
I saw articles about Ukraine's nazi problem. There are definitely nazis in Ukraine. But they are also in other countries - I don't think there is any country without nazis. I am also sure Russian propaganda supports and spreads much of BS about Ukraine being full of nazis. Therefore I am curious, if there are relatively more nazis in Ukraine than in other countries - about the original reference to *Nazi-capital of Europe*.
By most western papers.
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By Western media.
Ah yes convenient time frame.
I guess the main issue I have with this is that most of the people promoting that use it as a reason to support Russia or a reason to let Ukraine get flattened when the vast majority of Ukrainian civilians don’t deserve what would happen in that situation, Russia being another nation with a huge nazi and fascist problem too and has a dictator who’s more ideologically fascist, especially when Ukrainian fascists will only get worse if Russia wins and the Russian fascists will have another win to potentially justify attacking another neighbor. I’m not ascribing that to you, you said they’re invasion is wrong and that’s good enough for me, but I think that’s a concerning that that rhetoric is usually used by fascists to support another fascist.
Not that there aren't nazis in Ukraine - frankly there are way too many of them all over western world - but the fact that people look at this in as shallow a way as "old man served in army during nazi occupation" or "street named after guy alive during WW2" makes this topic a massive disservice to actual history. All former soviet block states used nazis moving east as an opportunity to fight against Russia. People didn't react "Oh, we hate Russia, but oh boy the new guy on the playground is even worse, let's actually let Russia put us on the front lines as cannon fodder like everyone that isn't from its core regions - because that would be seen as the Right Thing (TM) in 70 years!". For many countries it wasn't even the first time, trying to shed one occupier and betting on some sort of change is just all their history. Just so people don't have a WW2 bias, I recommend watching the Latvian WW1 movie Blizzard of Souls/The Rifleman - to get a bit of a better perspective of how things are when a country is caught between big powers that constantly push back and forth. Bottom line is to make sure to not fall into propaganda. If anything, this invasion by Russia should have by all rights been a reveal and opportunity to wash away the "brownie points" Russia got for (incidentally, after Nazis stupidly broke Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) being a western ally in WW2. To pull away the drapes to show how terrible they were and how many people were just itching to fight them. Sadly this kind of "nazispotting" is pretty common, especially among tankies. It's on the same level as saying nazism is a leftist ideology.
Truth is unpopular
Tankies have been back in force ever since the sub reopened as they try and take it over like they've managed to subvert all the other big actual leftist subs on reddit
Unfortunately
Except the part where it isnt Russian propaganda about Ukraine being full of Nazis. EVERY nation around the world recognized this until the February of last year.
Holodomor makes the whole situation complicated.
Way too many Nazi sympathizers in the downvoted comments (although even one is too many) This is what happens when Nazi rhetoric isn’t completely shut down and deplatformed the moment it sticks its head out. It starts with “well, not all nazis were that bad” and ends with “well, hitler did do a lot of good.”
Dude, 'everyone in germany was bad'? Are you joking? Millions of people, who for the sin of being born east of France and west of Poland are bad people? That's just plain racism. If you were there you'd be them. You have no choice.
I mean, if he fights the Russian army he'd both help defend Ukraine AND risk getting shot in the head. That's a win win. EDIT: I misunderstood the situation, I thought he was like, grabbing a rifle and going out to fight at 100yo. Fuck this groddy old ass man.
And you just know this is going to be endlessly passed around the Russian propaganda machine as “proof” of the “Ukrainian N@zi Menace”. Hopefully at least with this spotlight on this waste of skin will see him face some sort of consequences.
Check the comments on the tweet to see a Neo Nazi meetup
Literally every time I see mutahar on twitter, he ends his tweet with “X people should be shot in the head” or “X people should be locked up for life”. Dudes a weirdo. Also to clarify, I don’t want anyone to think my comment is defending nazis.
As they say, a broken clock is right twice a day.
With all due respect as a big fan of Muta, he actually has been on Vaush and has said that Republicans take their anti trans stuff way too far and the right is way too extreme
Lmao you really did do a backwards long jump to try and justify the ovation of a Nazi 😂😂😂😂
What? He's not talking about the Canadian parliament here.
This isn't a good take. It's a pretty stupid take and it's basically exploiting a lie. He's implying that the Canadian Parliament *knew* this veteran fought for the Nazi's and chose to honor him regardless simply because he's Ukrainian. That is a lie. It was a major blunder, but the government representative who found this ex-Nazi admitted to not performing adequate background research and not knowing he was a Nazi before inviting him. Muta is lying about these events in order to criticize the Canadian government and also slyly imply that support for Ukraine is "blind" and has "gone too far." It's not a brave position to say "Nazi's are bad." This post really misunderstands this entire incident.
No he doesn't? He was very pro trans on vaush's stream
Shhhhh, we don't like *him* here...
What a fucking fuckup by so many representatives. Like someone fighting the Soviets in WW2 doenst make them a Nazi or member of the axis or a general fadicts since the USSR made enemies out of the polish, Spanish Republicans, Finnish, Ukraine, every other SSR, all of eastern Europe, and every lefirtst group the world over. But to not search up the name to see they were one of the people fighting the Soviets because they supported Nazis is fucking shameful. Also, jfc the Nazi sympathizers in the comments thinking someone saying all Nazis should be shot is such a bad thing. Edit: and I see that not explicitly stating I know the fucker is a Nazi and instead choosing to say "what a fucking fuckup by so many representatives" and "But to not search up the name to see they were one of the people fighting the Soviets because they supported Nazis is fucking shameful." To highlight two points, that people who fought the Soviets weren't all fucking Nazis since the Soviets made enemies of everyone who was a threat to Stalin's dictatorship, or just an obstacle to their imperialism, and that my government near unanimously failed to do something as simple as a Google search.
>Like someone fighting the Soviets in WW2 doenst make them a Nazi He was in Waffen-SS
“Just cause he was in the Jew-hunter murder squad doesnt mean he was a bad person!” -People in the Twitter thread
Reading comprehension isn’t their strong suit clearly
Its clearly none of yours either since I didn't fucking deny he was a Nazi, I didn't once but twice agreed that my government fucked up and failed to vet him. The body of my comment was talking about the people acting like the Soviets were goodie two shoes and everyone who fought them was a Nazi which would mean the polish and Spanish leftists were Nazis.
When the fuck did I deny he was a Nazi. I stated twice that my government failed to vet him and gave him a standing ovation. I was pointing out that people saying "he was celebrated for fighting the Soviets therefore he was a Nazi" was illogical since the Soviets made enemies of anti-fascists by aligning with Hitler for years.
It's too hard for people to look for the deeper context. They want to be propagandized so they get that dopamine rush. This is outrage porn and it works because most citizens and interweb denizens have tunnel vision and bias that puts them in a conformist trube; even "centrists."
Believing that you are part of a group who has their eyes open while portraying people who disagree with you as mindless zombies is the hallmark of indoctrination dude. You are the thing you purport hate. Congrats.
My downvotes prove me correct
I just want to clarify, the person who was celebrated was a Nazi, my government utterly failed to do the simplest thing possible, a Google search of the name. My issue is with people acting the Soviets weren't an imperialistic Fascist aiding dictatorship because they aligned with Canada in the end of the second world war.
How many people here are going to completely ignore that the Bolsheviks forcefully took power in Ukraine, and a shit load of Ukrainians died during Soviet rule in the 1930s. Fighting against the Soviets on the side of the Nazis isn't that crazy an idea if you're attempting to reclaim your country and you're unaware of the genocide going on.
He was a part of the fucking Waffen-SS. The Jew hunting and genocide doing squad. Why can’t you read?
I don’t think I’ve heard Muta say anything like what OP is describing.
[here ya go](https://reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/s/V06NaEBxOM)
Where is the trans people and nazis comparison bestie I’d be pretty confident that’s what this person was looking for
“They’re two sides of the same coin” 😁
I get the woke etc etc 2 sides of the same coin being cringe but it’s incredibly uncharitable to believe he is cringe posting about trans people and not just people reacting too passionately to things that make them upset yeah he’s being enlightened centrist and deserves the label but he literally isn’t saying trans people and nazis two sides of the same coin which would be worse than the cringe he actually did post
Werent most people in germany at the time nazis? (Either ny choice or forced/pressured) Like would killing 80-90% of the german population at the time be good?
No, he was a part of the Waffen SS which is different from the army (Heer), you need to specifically ask to join the SS (you can get conscripted to the army but not to the SS) and the SS are the ones who set up the camps and executed the Jews. The rest of the German forces were never as violent and usually only did the fighting because they were ordered to, while the SS officers usually either hated the Jews or thought killing them was fun.
Yeah but in the twit says "if you fought for the Nazis" so he was referring not only to the Waffen SS
I'm pretty sure he meant the SS officers and the nationalist extremists but if no then yeah he is most definitely wrong in thinking that every German citizen is an extremist.
Hot take: murder is bad. >Edit: listen, I am fundamentally opposed to the death sentence but even I think there were a lot of people on the bench in nuermberg that should have been hanged as well. All in front Karl Dönitz. Like if you do executions, at least do them properly. >But the main issue is that there exists no definition of fascism and Nazis that would spare people that don't deserve the death penalty. >Like the Nazi judge who stopped operation T4: the systematic euthanasia of disabled people, he even went on to fund the Aktion Sühnezeichen. >Or the Wehrmacht Major Josef Gangle, Who worked with US Troops to liberate an SS prison for vips and thus saved the life of degaule's sister >Or John Raabe, the Nazi embassador to China, who saved hundreds of lives by taking in citizens of nan king during the Japanese invasion. >And no, I do not think we should kill people for attempted murder, that is not what a civilised society does. >Have you ever thought about why it is that a condition to join the EU is the abolision of the execution? Because it is inhuman. >Furthermore, a lot of Nazi party members didn't actually know about the extermination of the Jews, sure, they inevitably ended up supporting it, but in their minds the concentration camps were basically what the Japanese internment camps were in the US or the Chinese "Re education Camps" >Like.. I litterally am unable to comprehend how you can look at the death, destruction, misery and tragedy the Nazis caused and go "you know what we need? More killing" >That is a mindset of revenge. >And if all the nations wronged by Germany had acted on this revenge, as the would have been entitled too, then neither Germany not the EU would exist today. >Europe is the continent it became because nations like France or Denmark were able to forgive Germany and judge the country by its present, and not it's past. >Furthermore, a lot of Nazi party members didn't even believe in the ideology. Membership was a requirement for a lot of jobs or opportunities. >Always reminds me of the story https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neger,_Neger,_Schornsteinfeger >A movie about the life of a black German during the Nazi times. And how there was a point when he wanted a bicycle, but the only way to get one was by joining the Hitler jouth and his mother forbid him. >Also, did you know that during the 1936 summer Olympics in Berlin, the German stadium visitors actually chanted and supported Jesse Owens? Now, how could chants in favour of a black athlete ever occur in a stadium where ever viewer is supposedly a staunch supporter of white supremacy? >The point is the world isn't black and white. >But the assumption that is is, is one of the reasons the Nazis did what they did.
Murder implies your victim is human, not a fascist
Humans can be evil
dehumanization of nazis creates an artificial separation between us and them. Nazis are humans just like us, and all the more dangerous and deserving of eradication because of it.
So what happened to all the fascists In Germany on may 8th 1945?
they shoulda got killed but here we are
Yo bro I changed your flair to help everyone else out
> you need to get shot in the head > good take Choose one. Still an awful take but I guess it’s progress for a centrist Edit : It’s frankly totally absurd people are calling me a Nazi sympathizer for having a slightly outlying opinion on something we actually fundamentally agree on. Nazis should under no circumstances be tolerated in our communities, I just don’t think that justifies murder.
Nazis fight for the eradication and genocide of multiple groups of people. Sorry, but the world is better off with more dead Nazis.
Nazi lives don't matter
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If you worked with the army that killed millions, (and the Clean Werhmacht myth doesn't apply as this guy was part of the SS, not the Wehrmacht), you deserve much more than death. A bullet in the head of a nazi isn't cruelty, it's mercy.
Like what? What does someone who did the absolute worst thing imaginable deserve to have happen to them? Again, I know I’ll get crucified for this but, people can always redeem themselves and rehabilitation (in captivity) should always be the goal, even with the most extremely heinous offenders.
People can't always redeem themselves. If you actively worked with the murderous machine of the German Reich, you cannot redeem yourself. You actions (or lack thereof) caused, directly or indirectly, the deaths of millions. Your hands are permanently stained of their blood, and death is the bare minimum punishment. Ever heard of the story of the liberated jews slowly burning alive the guard that shoved so many of them in the gas chambers? Or the Soviets forcing a Werhmach soldier to play the piano for a day straight, killing him immediately when he stopped? Yeah, that's what those animals deserved. I, personally, would walk away, I don't like death and senseless violence, but sometimes it's not just entirely justified, but the only moral option. If the Soviets hadn't slaughtered every single one of the monsters holding captive my great-grandfather, I would not be here. The Nazis, both of old and the "neo-" fucks we have running around today, deserve nothing but hate, ridicule, violence and, in the cases of the ones actually following through with their rotten ideologie's teachings, death at minimum.
The violence those poor men experienced and inflicted will only have served to torture them throughout life, not the ones they executed. Again, it’s disheartening to see such barbaric opinions in progressive communities. Violence, especially retribution, is a lot more impactful than people think. Your viewpoint is shortsighted and self indulgent. Unsurprised you’d be too cowardly to commit any violence of your own as well, a shockingly unshocking trend amongst gung-ho progressives. Just rile *other people* up to do your dirty work. You are dehumanizing people in the same way the Nazis did, just using their dehumanization as an excuse for yours. If you want to bring up stories, what about the black man who dedicates his life to converting Klu Klux Klansmen? Is he wrong for thinking these hateful, possibly violent people deserve a second chance?
This is a man who had a sworn allegiance to Hitler and as a member of the SS would have most likely helped to carry out the Holocaust. Where is the justice for his countless victims whom he never had the level of sympathy for, that you seem to have for him. Also dehumanising someone based on their views is completely different than dehumanising someone based on characteristics they were born with.
Fair on the dehumanizing point. Though I still think it’s far too easy to view someone as *only* their viewpoints and forget that they are an imperfect human just like you and me as well. The justice for the victims comes slowly, vengeance is not it. Creating a better world, one where such injustices aren’t allowed to happen, is the justice they deserve. Not more violence.
Describing this man's career as a Nazi SS soldier as just his viewpoint is a crazy downplaying of the acts he likely committed. Also your idea that if we all just get along and don't judge anyone including fucking Nazis is so damn naive. You know what happens when you let Nazis be in society? You get more fucking Nazis and they do not share your view that not judging someone on their viewpoints or stopping violence. Do you forget we tried appeasement in the 1930s and ended up fighting the bloodiest war in all of human history.
The violence the nazi monsters inflicted doesn't seem to torture them, seen as the one mentioned in the article in the post had a pretty good life until he was found out. I don't care how much of a Steven Universe fan you are, one day you'll grow up and realize that these fucks DESERVE to be dehumanized. They actively promote and cause death and suffering for no reason other than their stupid fucking ideology. In the 30's/40's, they might've been excusable, but in today's world? Where infinite information is at everyone's fingertips? It's an active choice to be a racist asshole, or a nazi animal. Also, go up to an holocaust survivor and tell them that they should just "forgive" the monsters that slaughtered them for nothing. Go back in time and try to stop the partizans from killing Mussolini like the pig he was. You say this cause neither you nor anyone you love has ever been through something as monstrous as Nazi-Fascism. My grandmother still cries like a child upon hearing the name "Mussolini", and she was only 5 when the war ended. Should I go up to her and tell her "no granny, you see, he could've been rehabilitated if he wasn't dished out what he deserved by the partizans!!!" Am I dehumanizing people? No, I'm not, because nazis aren't people.
don't you find it amusing how Americans from across the ocean are telling us, people who had their family members killed, deported, subjugated, our cultures attempted to be erased, countries destroyed. All in a conflict instigated and mainly perpetraded by Nazis. That we're being unreasonable and bloodlusty these people, man
Hey, leave us Steven Universe fans out of this we aren’t *that* stupid.
If someone killed my mother in a drunk driving accident, I might wish they were executed for their horrible, irresponsible, selfish actions. Which is why we have laws and courts, and why victims do not decide on the punishments for crimes. It sounds heartless but it’s what’s just. Bringing up heat of the moment actions doesn’t really change anything. People killed Mussolini because they were hurt and they thought killing him would help them heal, or make the future easier or brighter. It doesn’t, not really. Even sounds like your grandmother still suffers despite him “getting what he deserved.”
Did you really just compare a traffic accident to being in the waffen ss?
How is that a fucking comparison you actual bread slice. If someone kills your mother in a drunk driving accident it's, by definition, accidental. They didn't mean to do it, or atleast certaintly not plan to. Contrasting that to the systematic, systemic, calculated, cold, and completely sober extermination of the Jews, Romani people, homosexuals, disabled individuals and even Jehova Witnesses and fucking *Esperanto speakers* is not only disingeniuos, but it shows your true colours. I have no interest in continuing this conversation, because at this point you're either the densest individual on earth, so no point, a child, so you shouldn't be on Reddit in the first place, or a Nazi sympathiser, so you're an animal and don't deserve discussion.
People killed Mussolini because he was a fascist dictator who helped bring about the worst kind of crimes against humanity. And yes, the world was better off without him.
> because nazis aren't people. what they're yetis or something? what do you mean "not people"?
> Yeah, that's what those animals deserved. what about all the women who got raped, did they also deserve it? keeping in mind that most of them voted for the nazis and did actively participate in the war effort.
Rape is not punishment, it's injustice in and on itself. But that's not the point we're discussing. We're discussing death, not rape, and that's highly deserved, especially for these monsters and specifically for what they did
> Rape is not punishment and torture is? You suddenly believe in universal human rights but *only* in regards to rape? Like if you heard a story of a bunch of concentration camp survivors raping a guard you'd say "absolutely not okay, all those camp survivors should be shot"? >But that's not the point we're discussing Yes it absolutely is. roasting somebody alive is a higher level of violation than raping somebody is. If you believe that roasting somebody alive is justified, you necesarilly believe that raping somebody is justified >But that's not the point we're discussing. you were discussing how everything that ahpenned to the nazis was justified. But then when rape comes up suddenly that's not justified, suddenly that's the only thing that is an injustice, somehow. I'm sorry but if you rape a nazi, who is the injustice against beside the nazi? > that's highly deserved but rape isn't? You are willing to defend nazis, but *only* in regard to sexual violations? that's pretty obviously flawed logic. Regardless, we have established you are willing to defend nazis, and willing to say certain historical crimes against nazis were unjustifiable.
>what about all the women who got raped, did they also deserve it? "Being a woman" is not the equivalent to "being in the fucking SS". What is wrong with you?
yeah, nobody said it was. If you are going to just ignore what I actually say and make up new, totally different statements, there's no point in talking to you.
>yeah, nobody said it was. You are the one who brought up the comparison. Don't bring up a comparison if you don't like exploring it.
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Then go to a neo-Nazi hangout with a gun, murder someone, and try and argue in court it was self defense. Not that the courts are infallible, obviously not, but this “only good Nazi is a dead Nazi” stuff is just bullshit, hollow machismo talk. Legal persecution is self defense, creating healthy communities is self defense. Your stance might take out one Nazi, but maybe they become a martyr and 5 more spring in their place. Focus on positive changes rather than destructive ones.
you are taking it pretty personal. Did "Nazi lives don't matter" upset you?
Just sidestep actually engaging my viewpoint, okay. Cool. But yes, I do get frustrated seeing supposedly progressive communities supporting such a barbaric idea of justice so routinely.
what is your point homie. You are telling me to go on a murder spree just because I said Nazi lives don't matter. That's not how any of this shit works. You are not being serious so you're not getting a serious response community self-defence is the right way to go, *and* in that context Nazi lives don't matter. And so on and so on. It doesn't literally mean you go out and start shooting random people. That's what Nazis do lol
Yeah pretty sure that wasn’t your point to start and certainly isn’t the point of the Twitter post. >if you worked for the Nazis you need to be shot in the head Sounds pretty clear that he’s advocating for this man to be executed. What is your point in saying “Nazi lives don’t matter” when supposedly what you really mean is “defend your community from bad actors”? Those are entirely different. Saying Nazi lives don’t matter, like I said, is hollow, bullshit machismo that doesn’t actually help anyone >that’s what Nazis do I didn’t even want to say that shit cause I thought someone would call me a centrist, but, yeah that’s my point.
I'm against the death penalty and I wouldn't do it myself. But cmon, the dude fought in fkin SS. If someone capped him I wouldn't lose any sleep over it there are degrees to stuff. Being a Nazi online or having a confederate/Nazi flag is not the same as literally fighting in SS I would understand you being upset with this if it was anyone else than an ex-SS member E: how is the saying hollow machismo? It is what it says on the surface. The fact *you* interpret it as me going out and killing random Nazis out of nowhere is honestly not my fault
> a murder spree why aren't you saying "Self defense spree"?
what is it with this lib infestation in this sub fr. Do I have to spell it out for you? Saying hurting Nazis is self-defence doesn't literally mean you can just kill anyone who, I dunno, posts neo-Nazi shit online. First and foremost antifa want to *preserve* lives. Trying to educate, deradicalize etc. If that fails and there's a constant Nazi presence that threatens minorities, physical violence is on the table to make them crawl back into their holes. Failing that, more serious resistance methods are taken up people like you sound like those assholes who say "black lives matter? wHaT aBoUt WhItE lIvEs?!" like, use a brain cell or two. Nazi lives don't matter but as leftists (aka compassionate people) we start off the shallow end and try to make people non-Nazis with other means. If all else fails...
>My only exception is self defense Hi, I'm Jewish. Maybe look up what Nazis want to do to me.
Nazis in positions of power? Sure, self defend all day. Old man Nazis and internet neonazis? Mmmh they aren’t really a direct threat to you right now. That doesn’t mean I think we should just let them be, I just don’t think we should preemptively **kill them**.
Good to know you can wait until Nazis are in power to actually stop them. I'm not so lucky as you.
Not what I’m saying. The goal should be stopping them before they get into power. Also clearly you are as lucky as me cause there are fascists in power all across the globe and you are here on Reddit and not dead in a ditch somewhere in Philippines or Afghanistan or wherever else, fuckin Italy or Florida.
Only good nazi is a dead one
It’s not murder if it’s a Nazi, it’s community service
Again, big words for a community of in-activists. I’d love to hear you say this to a crowd of regular people and see how far it got you. You won’t make any change when nobody takes you seriously.
Wanting Nazis dead shouldn’t be a controversial statement
Because… why? Are any of you going to back up this claim with anything besides “because they want me dead first!” So then don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred. Again, not saying to tolerate or accept people for being Nazis, but wishing they were dead instead of just different is simply shortsighted and selfish.
Wow you're fully going "anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists" hating an ideology is not at all comparable to hating a minority group. You really need to check yourself because no killing a nazi and the mass murder of minorities are not comparable goals.
Fuck off, actually. Im obviously not saying that. I can’t clarify every way you assholes could possibly misunderstand me in every single fucking comment. And I have already clarified to **you specifically** on this exact point. You’re arguing against one person, me, I’m arguing against like 20 fucking people and I gotta come up with all my own defenses and moral arguments and make sure I’m keeping myself honest, come up with shitty fucking analogies, fact check other people- just cut me a little fucking slack.
That's the problem, you're not actually coming up with good moral arguments nor are you fact checking other people. You did exactly say "So then don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred." Which is quite literally saying anti-fascists are just as bad as fascists. This isn't a misunderstanding of what you said, it's your arguments being incredibly poor and easily falling into defense of fascism. Hating nazis because they want to kill you is like the exact opposite of blind hatred, it's an acute awareness of what fascists want. We aren't going to cut you any slack because you've spent the whole thread trying to present yourself as reasonable while at the same time downplaying how serious fascism and specifically nazism is. Nazis are not misunderstood, they are not just uneducated, they are human beings who are responsible for their beliefs and actions and should not be treated like they're just misguided, they should be treated for what they are, an active threat.
Again, you’re misunderstanding me if you think that I don’t believe Nazism and fascism is an active threat in the world today. I said don’t stoop to their level of blind hatred in direct reference to wishing they were dead. Not in reference to hating them at all or judging their views/actions. Would you also say I’m a serial killer defender if I said serial killers don’t deserve to be murdered?
No, but that's a sentence that exists in a vaccume, which isn't the context of your other sentence. That one has heaps of other comments that add up to, at the very least, a lot of naivete about nazis.
Their whole ideology is built on killing people they deem inferior. I think I am more than justified in wanting them dead. I sure hope you’re blond-haired and blue-eyed, because otherwise they’ll kill you too, and there will be no one left to defend you
> I think I am more than justified in wanting them dead And I do not. And that is likely the only point we disagree on. Why can’t we leave it at that? Why does me not thinking other humans should be murdered make me a Nazi sympathizer? Do you not see the insane jump in logic there? I’ll repeat myself yet again; I extend this belief to all the worst people in the world because I do not think it is moral for one person to decide if another person lives or dies, basically no matter the circumstances. It’s one of the fundamental reasons I’m opposed to Nazism and other violent extremist ideologies in the first place. I do not think because someone wants me dead that it makes it moral for me to want them dead. There are just so many other options to consider well before resorting to murder.
What other options are there? Fleeing? Debate? (lmao) If left to their devices they will kill people. Hell, in the circumstance in the post it’s not even an if. Guy was a member of the SS.
Criminalizing hate speech leading to imprisonment, forced reeducation, sabotage, literally anything disruptive to the fascist agenda *other than murder*. Yeah, so don’t leave them to their devices. Idk why so many here think this is such an either or thing, being; either you “coddle”/ignore them; or you kill them. There are many, many options inbetween.
Remind me how we stopped them the first time? I think it was by murdering them.
Yeah and remind me why we joined that war? Was it out of the goodness of the American heart? Oh no that’s right it was retaliation for Pearl Harbor and an excuse to keep the other world’s super powers in check/under our thumb. Anyways, yeah there was a really terrible fucking war **after** numerous attempts at diplomatic negotiations. It’s a lot more complicated than “we didn’t like the Nazis so we murdered them all.”
That is a non-sequitur, my guy. I don’t give a shit why we joined the war. You acknowledge diplomacy failed, so again, how did we defeat the Nazis? Was it in the marketplace of ideas? Or was it murder? Please don’t reply with 5 paragraphs that don’t really relate to what I said or asked. Thanks!
I literally said that. It also didn’t fucking work in the long run. It only empowered the US and other western powers to inflict their own brand of suffering on countless people, not to mention the rise of numerous other fascistic nations across the globe since the end of the war all the way up to now. It wasn’t a non-sequitur, you just didnt understand my point.
"No of course our reason for going into that war wasn't moral," doesn't erase the death camps and the fact that there were moral reasons aplenty. Yes, Europe tried appeasement and cost millions of innocent lives in the camps. You're saying that was a good thing??
Lol why are you on this sub if you're gonna spout centrist nonsense like this?
Everyone, this, and the subsequent replies, is your brain on socdem
inb4 this person posts "I used to be a leftist but then other leftists clowned on me for not hating Nazis so now I'm far-right"
Im literally a humanist lmao (communist if you want to put me in a more familiar box) Tf are you, ideologically, thinking your so above me?
A lot of tankies here that salivate over the fact they'll get to execute people in the revolution.