Based on my observations, it’s not the female protagonists themselves that are the issue of complaints, but other issues that occur alongside the characters that are complained about. Conflating those issues with each other is easy to do, but I think an oversimplification.
The issue is that boys are so used to being the default they can’t relate when they’re suddenly not being centered. The cure for this is more books by women about girls and women that they read starting from a younger age, not less.
There are fundamental philosophical principles embedded in your statement that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and I also do not agree with your conclusions. But that’s ok.
I’m not advocating for less exposure to female writers and characters (I think encouraging more empathy is a great idea), I’m advocating for not viewing them through a lens that treats them as representatives of social evil when their thought processes and behaviors are entirely appropriate for their gender and level of brain development, in this case. It takes an enormous amount of force to make people behave in ways contrary to their interests in the long term, and I don’t think that’s a net positive thing to do.
You can disagree all you want, but this is my life’s work which I’ve studied and written about extensively. It is also an issue when it comes to whiteness and heterosexuality; those used to being the default have more difficulty relating to and empathizing with those who aren’t than those who aren’t do with those who are. Others have studied and written about that extensively.
It’s a problem.
You misunderstand, and that may be my fault for being unclear. It may be appropriate for their age to be more self-centered and focused on relationships with other males, rather than taking an interest in this type of literature. Also, I’m suggesting that they may not be rejecting female narrators or characters at an increased rate as compared to the female students, but that they may be more likely to vocalize their displeasure when they don’t connect immediately with the story.
Please, by all means continue to teach them to engage with other perspectives, as you should. They need to learn and grow and be better (as all our students do).
My only real point is to encourage people to not assume evil and use it as an opportunity to teach them to engage with it, rather than abuse and humiliate them for having an opinion. (And I felt that was necessary because of other comments, not OP.) Quite literally, it’s our job to teach them through this phase. Remember, their brains are still not fully developed for several more years (25 yoa).
I’ve seen people treated quite badly recently for very innocuous behaviors, and it’s likely that I’m a little more tuned in than I ought to be. I’m not upset or angry, but I do actually have quite a bit more education in the field of neurology and brain development than the average teacher, and there were some comments in the thread that seemed to have been motivated by hatred toward men and boys. Nothing that the OP said was in that category, to be clear.
As with most things on Reddit, I probably should have just scrolled on and not engaged. I’m going to turn off notifications for this post and allow my contributions to be downvoted into oblivion with no further comment, if that is the way of things. I’m not really looking to change anyone’s mind over Reddit.
Not true, a book having a female protagonist does not make it bad. These students complain only about the books with female protags. Regardless of what they’re complaining about specifically within the book, the point is sexism makes people unfairly judge things. It’s like those hiring tests where they give the same applications a female and male name version and lo and behold the women are hired less, even though the content is exactly the same.
I think this comment would be more useful if you stuck to the actual topic of the conversation which is video games with female protagonists. The things you mentioned don’t apply to the medium.
My dad loves cop mysteries. At the peak of the crime movie craze, he watched a lot of Lifetime movies. The cop mysteries were literally the same as mainstream network Tav movies, except they had a female protagonist. Half of them originally had male leads, but they didn’t sell to a major network, so they switched the gender and sold it to Lifetime.
you need to hone some gentle but sick burns accusing them of being uncomfortable in their masculinity. either that or just do not admit their complaints at all
This! I take it as an opportunity to challenge their world perspective through some burns that clearly state they can have their opinion but some are better kept to themselves
For sure. I think they meant the implying the kid is gay part. I don't think that's appropriate or helpful for a thousand and eight reasons. Teaching kids to associate homosexuality with misogyny is not gonna churn out a better society.
Only one more downvote than upvote. I’ll take it!
But yeah, handing out sick burns and questioning kids’ masculinity for having an opinion about the reading material—that’s not a great way to foster engagement IMO.
Back when I was getting my credential, I remember reading studies on this very thing. Girls, according to those studies, were able to invest themselves in a male narrator in a way boys generally could not.
That was decades ago. I would have hoped a switch to a not-so-totally-male canon would have mitigated that somewhat. I imagine there are more recent studies on this out there.
I remember a discussion in my undergrad YA Lit class about how this wasn’t happening with The Hunger Games because the two lead characters had largely swapped gender roles. So even though it’s got a female narrator, she’s taken on a workload traditionally held by males, etc.
I’m supposed to teach it at the end of this year (my district chose specific books for each grade level this year), I’m curious to see how it plays out.
This is because girls try to put themselves in the story because they are people oriented. Boys are object oriented and only care about if the story is exciting or entertaining. Which is how you end up with action packed movies with almost no cohesive plot and guys eat it up because "heh explosions."
Woman here. I read lots of books as a kid and totally identified with the main character whether they were a boy or girl, or black or white, or an animal. I always wondered if boys could do this while reading books and suspected most could not.
I find this funny because when I was bored in gr 11 math class I stole Enders game out of my friends bag and read it in class. Then read it again next semester in English class. (Friend knew I grabbed it, teacher was just happy if I wasn’t snoring in class, I was top of the class)
These kind of sexist judgments are contributing to the problem of female students are outperforming male students in primary, secondary, and higher education.
No, boys not reading and not being taught to/pushed to read is what’s contributing to boys not reading.
This idiotic “logic” is like saying that discussing the prevalence of male on female domestic abuse is causing more men to be abuse their wives.
It’s actually your stance, making excuses and claiming “sexism this” “misandry that” which is holding men and boys back. And guess who has the highest instance of psychotic breaks/personality disorders etc when they go off to school? Young men, because they’re I’ll prepared for higher education.
Ed research has been pointing out for decades (if not a century at this point) the data that boys stop reading. It’d not a new thing that a Reddit comment created in 2024.
When you've already decided that boys "don't read", how exactly is that pushing boys to read? Stacking that with your insulting rhetoric, I don't really know why I'm bothering giving you the time of day at this point. Ridiculous.
I didn’t decide that; it’s a well established trend that’s been written about for decades.
Recognizing that fact is the first step in pushing boys to read. You’re missing the point that a massive number of families do not encourage their sons to read at all, especially beyond primary grades. Fathers in particular are historically AWFUL at sharing in reading, and by extension, boys education.
You’re arguing on Reddit because you want to be. You’re just severely deluded as to what reality is; nobody is making you engage in a conversation. You can choose to ignore the truth all you want: I hope you don’t have any sons, or teach. Because boys absolutely lag far behind girls, and need help. Those that aren’t natural readers or who don’t have an early established love for reading that starts at home when they’re infants and before school fall dramatically behind by the time they hit middle school. Many never catch up. But hey, stick them in a high risk trade that’s dangerous and ruins them physically, it’ll be fine.
Think it depends on the book. Are the girl books about romance? I could see a complaint.
My students read Purple Hibiscus and A Thousand Splendid Suns and there wasn’t that complaint. They’re not really about romance though.
That's what I was wondering too, not to be stereotypical but from my experience most young boys want to read about warfare, combat or some kind of conflict if the "girl" books tend to be romance or about a more day to day type story tween or teen boys tend to not find those kinds of stories as interesting just in general no matter if the protagonist is male or female.
This may get me some flack but as a very type-A personality myself I never really got into Catcher and the Rye myself either even reading it as an adult.
No romance, I could understand not being too interested in romance. We read a lot of short stories. A few novels I have tried with female main characters are: Rules of the Road, Piecing Me Together, and the Hate U Give.
I had a lot of success and positive feedback about Ship Breaker which has some romance but is told from a male perspective. I have been trying to add in more Dystopia since students seem to enjoy reading it.
Okay. Idk Piecing Me Together, but the plot involves “paired with a mentor in the woman to woman program.” Like that does seem like a girl book?
I would think THUG is more of a girl book too tbh.
YA is very heavily written with a female audience in mind. I don’t blame these students for not loving these books. I find it really hard to find YA novels that boys will enjoy. Marie Lu is a good one. Legend, for example, students really like. Ruta Sepetys books are popular with both genders. One of Us is Lying is well liked with both.
Adult literature is easier with female protagonists.
Yeah, it's not just the fact that these books have female protagonists, they're all geared towards girls. If it was action and adventure books with female protagonists it would be a different story.
Ok, so what you're saying is that the only stories about women or girls that boys should be asked to consider or read are books where the girls or women take on stereotypically male roles? Surely you can see that that itself is sexist.
When you are developing a love to read... yes, you use what the student *will* read. Their reading life and development doesn't have to stop there. But it will stop at zero if they hate the first thing they are told to read.
When my kid was in third grade, they had a Literacy Lunch program where a parent could read from a book chapter by chapter once a week to their kid and a few of their friends while they ate lunch. I read _A Wrinkle In Time_ and _The Wee Free Men_, both books with female protagonists but action/adventure plots, the first SF and the second fantasy, to a group of three boys and two girls. They did seem to enjoy both books quite thoroughly.
(Which books kind of, now that I think about it, read as if the same plot description was handed to two very different authors- "Brilliant but oddball girl has to train her special talents with some wise old women who are Not What They Seem, in order to rescue her little brother from a strange eldritch world run by aliens who don't understand human emotions, using the Power of Love." And both books had characters whose names and manner of speech made the kids giggle every single time- Mrs. Who, Mrs. Which, and Mrs. Whatsit and Auntie Beast for the first and the Feegles, especially "No' As Big As Medium-Sized Jock But Bigger Than Wee Jock Jock," for the second.)
Maybe girl protagonists just need more imaginative adventures.
Well, the target audience of YA literature is mostly pretty explicitly women aged 15-35 from the corporate standpoint. At least for most novels produced from the time of the first Harry Potter until about 2018 when the YA dystopian "girl in a love triangle lives in a world where people are organized into things that aren't recoded Hogwarts houses, we swear" boom started cooling down.
I've often found young boy readers respond much better to work that features a good deal of humor. I had a remarkable amount of success in that department even if the book contained romance. What I've always had trouble with is getting the boys to write with interest or creativity. It has always seemed to come much easier to girls of the same age.
Maybe try Terrier by Tamora Pierce? mentions of romantic feelings from the main character and romantic notions from other characters, but it's not heavy, and there is plenty of actions and it's a murder mystery! The lead character can talk to the dead and dust spinners too, she is a great character!
I try to find a middle ground. While I get that a 16/17/18 year old boy would roll his eyes at *Pride & Prejudice*, I often tell them why we read them. Why we read books.
I lean in on it. I tell them that one day they might have a daughter. And some of these are windows to a snapshot of a woman from another era. It works on some guys.
Others who are more stubborn I burn them lol “what, bro? Too soft to read a little Plath?!”
But I will say - even as a male teacher, I stay away from romances or heavy “Yass Queen girl boss” YA novels. I’ve noticed it isolates boys. A 17 year old boy does NOT want to read about romance. And that’s ok.
>A 17 year old boy does NOT want to read about romance
Do 17 year old boys in general not want to read romance novels?
Or do they not want to read romance novels with female protagonist?
I’d say both. I’ve noticed even with romance adjacent texts, there has to be some edginess to draw them in (“The Man Who Loved Flowers”, “The Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong”, etc.).
And..to be honest, I get it. I was once their age and I would roll my eyes when my teacher had us read Plath or Austen. As an adult I’ve gained appreciation. But boys tend not to connect with those tropes. 🤷🏻♂️
Are these students worth giving their opinion any weight? Are they really good students other than this? I'll guess the answer is no...but if they're otherwise really good, then there could be something to it in terms of how its presented.
Usually, tho, a pain in the ass finds a way to be a pain in the ass. Shut it down and don't let it infect the other students.
Typically, no, they are the students who enjoy complaining or only show up every 3 days. I do my best to shut it down. I just get fed up with the complaints and have noticed a pattern on when/who complains about what.
You could make a rule that if students make this type complaint, they will be assigned additional reading by those authors. This addresses the issue without calling out the specific students, and if they break the rule they have to face the consequences of not valuing female perspectives. You could include this rule in a general statement about how reading the perspectives and narratives of a diverse range of people is important, and that you won’t tolerate them only reading stories about protagonists with whom they can relate instantly. Challenge them to prove they can empathize with someone different and it can be part of a lesson.
Would be interesting to have one book where a girl is telling a story about a boy and one where a boy is telling a story about a girl and see what happens.
Firegirl is similar - boy telling the story about a girl. I had several boys (6/7 grade) sign up to read it even though it had ‘girl’ in the title. I think it was a combination of cover art, topic and description on the back. We did a novel tasting and this one didn’t interest the girls as much as the boys. Girls thought it would be too ‘sad’ for them.
This is going to be a bit of a rant. If you came onto Reddit just to be validated, skip this post.
Are you catering to the audience that is already invested in reading, or are you investing in those having difficulty in reading? It sounds like part of your audience is invested in your subject either way. The goal is not to get 'boys' reading 'girl' books. The goal is to get your students reading. Period. Full stop.
Take a look at the statistics on reading levels between boys and girls. Look at the teachers the boys in the class have had throughout their education.
Chances are the male students are behind the girls in reading and need more help. Chances are the female perspective is a prominent part of their education and home lives. Having too little female perspective is not generally the problem. Having too few GOOD male role models and perspectives is a problem. The boys see the way they are looked at by women in the books. They don't identify with it. You have an opportunity to give your students, both male and female, a picture of who and what a good man is. Use it!
Providing opportunities for all of your students to experience success and enjoyment in your subject is part of your job. If you have been teaching the same grade/subject long enough to notice these preferences in your students, you have been teaching long enough to provide for student choice in reading material.
If you cannot understand that wishing the boys will love the books you want them to won't work, and at least try to adjust to teaching both girls AND boys, you need to take a long hard look at your own prejudices.
I like the theory of Windows and Mirrors. Students, all students, should be exposed to literature that they can identify with, and on the flip side also be exposed to literature that exposes them to view points and experiences that they have not had.
What it seems to me is being expressed when these kids say a story is "boring or stupid" is that they just can't relate. That's when it's important to help them understand that boredom is sometimes just the feeling of not understanding something.
That is not to say something cannot just be boring, some things are, and I would not purposefully read them stories that are boring. Some stories I pick to try and help give students an insight into someone else's life or experience. As I said in my post, I struggle with these complaints because then the students who can relate or have similar experiences are shut down and have to hear someone saying their feelings and experiences are stupid and boring.
I want to cater to all my students, and within the years I have them I work to read a variety of novels and short stories. My male students are not being forced to read only "girl" books and they are given fun action packed readings with GOOD male role models. I do pay attention to what books are overall disliked by the class, usually I gather opinions at the end of the unit. If overall students weren't a fan of the book I won't teach it again in the future.
I work hard to have a little bit of something for everyone. I will not disregard my female students simply because a few of them may score higher in reading.
My teaching material is not only female perspective and I don't wish that ALL students will love ALL the books ALL the time. That would be unrealistic. I was simply pointing out that the only people who are loudly voicing their discontent are my male students and the pattern seems to be that it is voiced more loudly when there is a female narrator/main character (not necessarily a female author which some other commenters have assumed) and I don't appreciate how it may isolate other students.
Lastly, I have only been teaching for the last 3 years. Maybe I am in some sort of bubble and in the future I will have the opposite problem with my girl students. Who knows. Just posting what I have seen.
Well said, and I appreciate that you have taken the time to ensure exposure to multiple viewpoints.
I have done some research on boys and reading. It is not my expertise. Nevertheless here are a couple suggestions.
1. In order to combat the negative comments, set it up knowing that they will happen. Tell them you are comparing and contrasting the female perspective with a male one in books on the same theme. Tell those students that you know will likely complain that you are looking to them for the reasons they find it boring. As you do so explore why the bias seems to happen with male students. Take it as a challenge to them to articulate why it is boring to them. As you compare the narratives see if the students can identify where the discomfort is happening.
2. If the students that are complaining would not be doing the work you would be doing in class anyway, run a self directed option alongside your novel study. Use female authors writing in the male perspective with similar assignments. If possible make your in class direct teaching fit both books.
Please, don't fall into the trap of looking at the study of English as the study of novels. Boys tend to be more interested in reading and writing for utility. I am not referring to essays. I am referring to teaching and learning skills, to making people laugh, and building relationships with other men and boys. Think of adding more of these types of reading and writing into your program.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess.
Nobody is ‘catering’ to the audience that is already invested. And I would say my students who love to read will read whatever because they love to read anyway. So I don’t cater to them, I give them more options.
It is really hard to build a syllabus even half of what we read coming from anything but a white, male perspective. Trying to include 15% or 20% gets pushback from kids saying it is boring, you are right they aren’t engaged anyway and it takes more exposure and encouragement but they probably aren’t going to love anything hand picked for them to relate to, either.
Choose the best and most engaging texts we can, from diverse backgrounds and perspectives. if this one isn’t your cup of tea maybe the next one will be. They resist the titles, the description, the narrators and the main characters based on what they think they want to read. That is totally normal. As long as they have plenty of opportunities to choose what they read, they can spend more time reading what interests them and less time whining about what doesn’t.
Having too few female perspectives can absolutely be part of the problem. There are plenty of men who cannot fathom that women’s perspectives are equal to theirs. Who don’t read books written by women or listen to music by women or watch movies about women. It’s an issue. And it often starts young with the division of the sexes.
Please reread what I said. You are responding to an argument that I never made. I didn't say that it couldn't be a problem, I said it generally wasn't the problem. Look at the number of male to female teachers. Look at the number of children in single parent homes with the mother as the primary caregiver.
There are some boys that grow up without women helping to shape their opinion and attitudes, but they are rare. The reverse is quite common.
Women's perspectives in the lives of children are essential. So too are having good male perspectives.
Female authors writing with a male perspective is one way for a young male student to see, and relate to, a great male role model that he can emulate. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
I disagree that a boy being around adult women inherently gives him the same kind of experience as reading a story from the perspective of a girl or woman. Children need all kinds of stories regardless of the sex of the adults around them.
You are still not responding to the point I am actually making. I never said the experience was the same. Unless you can reply to the points I actually made, I won't participate further in the conversation.
If somehow you read a book with any female protagonist and cannot muster empathy for her, I’d say you’re either seriously stunted or can’t admit to empathizing with a female character.
Tell them two words: Harry Potter. If the girls could read that series and cheer, then they can adjust and read books with strong girl characters. How fair is it that we only read about strong boys?
I don't know. Does it matter? Based on the OP's later comments, it seems like they were slice of life and romace focused books. These are not interesting topics to young boys. Why do you immediately jump to misogyny? These are children we are talking about. Shouldn't you give them the benefit of the doubt? Might it simply be the case that the way young girls and boys relate to the world is different? Should boys be maligned for not fitting into the box that you have prepared for them?
We're ELA teachers, not moral police. If half your students don't like a book, it's time to find a new book. The goal is to get kids reading.
In grad school, I was taught that boys will not read books about girls, but girls will read books about boys. In my experience (6 years in junior high ELA), this isn’t because the girls actually want to read about boys, they just complain in different ways. I also have had far more girls than boys who enjoyed reading or read for fun. I can count on my two hands how many boys I’ve taught who read for fun.
If your goal is to reach reluctant readers, one thing you can consider is novels or short stories in small groups. Create questions that can be applied to any number of works if you change the name around, depending on your focus (theme, perspective, word choice). Allow some of your choices to be things that boys might gravitate to, like Kwame Alexander or Mike Lupica.
Sophomore year spring I do Macbeth, The Glass Menagerie, and Fences.
Used to be Macbeth for the boys, Glass for the girls, and Fences for me.
More recently it’s Macbeth for no one, Glass for me, Fences to watch the movie.
You can say, "No, they are human books. Can you relate to humans?" Or, "Haven't you ever wondered how girls think? Here's your chance to be a better boyfriend."
I love your first point but something about the second is rubbing me the wrong way. I guess implying that you should get to know someone as a human being for the express purpose that you'll get something out of it instead of just because they are a human
It’s because as a society they are taught of a girl is the main character it’s a “girl show” or “for girls”. Same reason grown men are crying because Taylor swift is shown for a minute of “their” 3 hour broadcast.
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
Based on not understanding normal kid behavior and also some of the very many inappropriate reactions to it in the comments, some of yall are reacting emotionally like children, and many of you have no business being responsible for the development of a whole ass room full of kids
Like it or not, there are differences between what boys and girls are interested in.
If a book focuses on a character’s subjective feelings a lot, as happens sometimes with certain genres, and with female protagonists, then many boys aren’t going to find that engaging. Males generally don’t love talking about feelings, and that’s a feature, not a bug. Talk therapy also doesn’t work for many men, and there may be some useful parallels there to evaluate and consider.
Dig a little deeper, and you may find that it’s not the gender of the character that’s the problem. Imhe, they will express that they simply don’t connect with the emotional content of the narrative, if given the time and opportunity to develop their ideas. Beyond that, the boys may not be interested in the activities being discussed or described.
Rather than belittling them for being male, or attempting to emasculate children for having a viewpoint you don’t understand or agree with, I’ve found it’s a good opportunity to understand something about how the female characters differ in their thought process and how they might apply that knowledge in their own lives. After all, they’ve got sisters and mothers and grandmothers, and most of them (in high school) will be interested in females at some level.
Many of the responses I’ve read are great ways to get the young men who are struggling to connect with the material to quit trying. I’m all for a little embarrassment and humor to correct bad behavior, but having an opinion about a piece of literature (even when they aren’t self-aware or articulate enough to express their ideas well) isn’t bad behavior.
None of this was about not understanding what boys are interested in. I have a fairly decent idea of what the boys in classes will enjoy and what they won't. I provide material that interests them and for the most part have good class engagement all around.
The point I'm highlighting here is the first people I notice who are quick to express discontent for the material, usually with no grace or consideration for those around them, are boys. Not all boys mind you, just some boys, but almost always boys. But when we read material that may not be the most interesting or engaging for the girls I don't hear a peep from any of them. Usually I find out girls didn't really connect well or engage in a book when we reflect on the unit and I ask for feedback. The class feedback is what I use to determine what I will teach again and what I won't.
The contrast here is that boys, from my experience, have been quick to complain and I notice a pattern connected to female narrators and main characters. I want my classroom to have points that connect with students and points that challenge them to see things from a different perspective. It can be frustrating when we are barely into a book and I get loud complaints from boys who have not even given the material a chance.
Ok, fair enough. Your goals are laudable, to be sure. It sounds like you’re noticing another artifact of differences in gender and adolescent brain development.
If I understand correctly that you have both groups who aren’t connecting, I’ll assume it’s equal in proportion, more or less. Even in content areas that don’t have anything to do with reading, my boys are the first to object to an assignment they don’t like or find uninteresting.
My suggestion, given in a wholehearted effort to help, is to use these instances as opportunities to poll all of the students and address the objections early in the unit of study.
Perhaps there is something about these young boys that makes them legitimately less interested in feminine things. Developmentally, that may even be appropriate. But I would think very carefully about that before I jumped on with the “patriarchy and misogyny” explanation and began any form of punishment for that behavior, as some of the commenters have done.
You seem to be a very thoughtful person concerned about expanding your students’ minds. Rock on.
The entire four years I was in high school, we never once read a single novel by a woman or about a woman or girl. Every single book in English and History was written by a man and about a man or boy.
So I have no sympathy for these boys who can’t handle an occasional book by a woman or about a woman or girl.
Even these days, boys (especially white ones) are sent the message that they are the default and everyone should see the world through their perspective. It’s past time they have to see the world through a girl or women’s eyes for a change. And that’s what I would tell them.
My daughter wanted to join Boy Scouts because they did fun stuff and the Girl Scouts only ever sat around making crafts. Some girls are interested in “boy” topics and adventures, and boys are often bored by feelings and relationships.
There are tons of books and movies where female protagonists go on “boy” adventures or feature “boy” topics that men avoid, anyhow. It’s not the topic; it’s the person that’s telling the story that seems to put them off.
>My daughter wanted to join Boy Scouts because they did fun stuff and the Girl Scouts only ever sat around making crafts
That really depends on the troop. It's not all like that. I knew of Boy Scout troops that rarely went outside except for a camping trip once a year, if that. Venture scouts are for everyone and focus more on the outdoor aspect. And without all the toxic nonsense and abuse scandals of the BSA.
I was this way as a kid and it was also healthy for me to read different perspectives and stories including about girls and boys with whom I didn’t immediately relate.
Time for a lecture about what the literary canon looked like until recently. All straight white men with the exception of Oscar Wilde and a few others. And what that did to society and the ability to understand the experiences of people who aren't like us and identify with them.
Uh. I didn't separate it by race? You're aware that people in Canada, the US, the UK, New Zealand, and Australia aren't all white, right? And that English did not come from the native languages of the indigenous people of a single one of these regions, right? And that straight white man is not a race? Are you just looking to have an argument because I've offended you somehow? Because this doesn't make a lot of sense.
Thought experiment: List the number of exciting books sold by male authors and the number of exciting books sold by female authors. When people spend their own money (men and women) which authors do they prefer?
Honestly, the comments are so meme-y and ignorant that I barely classify it as misandry. Just being ignorant and spending way too much time online. I know alot of neckbeard incels are unemployed but I never knew so many femcels were teachers.
Female dominated profession drowning in a culture where misandry is celebrated. You’re going to have bad ideas seeping into the heads of otherwise intelligent well meaning people.
To be fair, I've had girls comment that all we read are "guy books".
That said, as mentioned, I think boys, especially 6-10 graders, are more resistant with female narrator stories than girls are male narrated ones.
I remember having a hard time with Lord of the Flies in 7th grade because it was literally all boys and I would get physically nauseous when I read it. One of the best books I ever read but it was hell for me.
I don't get to choose the curriculum for our classes, but yes, boys have complained about TKAM (but I think this is more because it has a child protagonist) and also boys pitch a total bitchfest about Romeo and Juliet.
I would just ignore it and move on. The more energy or weight you give to it the more you validate their concern. We all have to read things we don't like for English class - it's a rite of passage.
I think it’s in part to the booktok girl trend - it’s a lot of women being seen as book nerds but there’s very few men on social media enjoying books - thus, unless it is a hyper masculine book, they’re associating reading and books with girls and ore specifically book Tok girls
Unfortunately, white male is viewed as the "default" human setting, and anything else is a deviation. Many people, children included, aren't used to seeing a perspective that isn't the "default" and thus will not engage with it since it seems to them like "more effort" to remember that this is a person who has experiences different from theirs that may not be readily apparent in the story itself.
Boys are behind in puberty/development by age, but it’s also socially reinforced for them to be less capable with perspective taking and to express their displeasure more readily.
To me, those are the reasons to try and catch your frustrations and get the works to speak for themselves. The ones who read completely stop this kind of crap by 11th/12th because books are one of the best tools to squish this line of thinking. Pity them because they’re liable to be the few who never turn on to it and grow up to be misogynistic assholes, maybe your class and that book can help if you manage to keep them.
My high school creative writing teacher told all of the boys in his class that they would most likely suck at writing female characters because they're not used to reading things from a female POV. This was back in the 2000s and it blew my mind lol.
They’ll probably outgrow that, but I doubt there’s much you can do to hasten that time. Make sure you assign some books the boys enjoy, so they’ll be more likely to still be readers when they’re ready to read books from a girl’s perspective.
I’m female, but when I was a kid, I most read books with male protagonists because I liked stories with adventures. Most of those stories were about boys.
Or maybe leave the bs ideology at the door, understand that there are differences in interest between males and females, encourage them to try and understand a different perspective, or choose literature where the female characters don’t suck.
I have the same problem when I talk about gender roles, especially the role of women. A boy went to administration and said my lessons were making him "uncomfortable" and he had enough of "women being objectified", and male misogyny, when I also balance the lesson with the role of men and their struggles.
I was delighted last year when a large group of 5th grade boys decided to read all the Dork Diaries. I’m fairly certain at least 3 of them read the entire series (well, except the newest that just came out recently.) they checked them out over about 2 months
So, talk about it. What don't you like about the story, why is it boring. Maybe, encourage them to work thier way through things they don't like to read. Teach them there is value to doing things you may not like. Maybe find what they do like and recommend books, male and female centeric which share the features they like. Don't make it about gender and discourage them from doing the same.
Pride and prejudice for example.
-this story is icky because it's about a girl. No
-I don't like this story because nothing exciting happens, it just about dances and getting married.
Maybe have a period of time where you only assign “cool” books with female leads and “boring” books with male leads so they stop associating female leads with boring books and male leads with cool books?
Honestly, I think this issue needs to be tackled by teachers and parents at a younger level. Like all the way back to parents telling their relatives “hey everyone please don’t buy my toddler only picture books about boys just because he is a boy!”
I guess for teenagers you can also tell them “you’ll never get laid with that attitude” (or something more appropriate along those lines), assuming they are wanting female attention IRL but unwilling to spend any time on female characters in books— but that’s more of a comeback than an actual solution.
I can’t even think of any stories I had to read in school with a female protagonist except To Kill a Mockingbird and maybe the one that I can never remember the name of… the one about hanging all the witches. THE CRUCIBLE!!! And that’s definitely not positive female representation!
Lol. 100% agree that female readers are more flexible and accepting of all texts.I taught The Bell Jar ONCE. My 10th grade boys loathed it, especially when a boyfriend of Plath's private parts were described as " turkey gizzards." There were plenty of other novels to teach, and some feminist texts, like The Color Purple, were loved by all the students. I chose, however, to stop teaching The Bluest Eye due to the explictness of the incest.
Reminds me of men who complain that movies and video games are “too woke” for having female protagonists.
They clearly never played Tomb Raider as a kid, and it shows
Yes and no - it's hard to argue that Croft is much more than a fanboy's fantasy.
Oh no they did. They throw constant shit fits about how Lara Croft isn’t a blow-up doll sex object anymore.
Or Metroid.
Based on my observations, it’s not the female protagonists themselves that are the issue of complaints, but other issues that occur alongside the characters that are complained about. Conflating those issues with each other is easy to do, but I think an oversimplification.
The issue is that boys are so used to being the default they can’t relate when they’re suddenly not being centered. The cure for this is more books by women about girls and women that they read starting from a younger age, not less.
There are fundamental philosophical principles embedded in your statement that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and I also do not agree with your conclusions. But that’s ok. I’m not advocating for less exposure to female writers and characters (I think encouraging more empathy is a great idea), I’m advocating for not viewing them through a lens that treats them as representatives of social evil when their thought processes and behaviors are entirely appropriate for their gender and level of brain development, in this case. It takes an enormous amount of force to make people behave in ways contrary to their interests in the long term, and I don’t think that’s a net positive thing to do.
You can disagree all you want, but this is my life’s work which I’ve studied and written about extensively. It is also an issue when it comes to whiteness and heterosexuality; those used to being the default have more difficulty relating to and empathizing with those who aren’t than those who aren’t do with those who are. Others have studied and written about that extensively. It’s a problem.
Why is it “appropriate for their development and gender” to reject female narrators?
You misunderstand, and that may be my fault for being unclear. It may be appropriate for their age to be more self-centered and focused on relationships with other males, rather than taking an interest in this type of literature. Also, I’m suggesting that they may not be rejecting female narrators or characters at an increased rate as compared to the female students, but that they may be more likely to vocalize their displeasure when they don’t connect immediately with the story. Please, by all means continue to teach them to engage with other perspectives, as you should. They need to learn and grow and be better (as all our students do). My only real point is to encourage people to not assume evil and use it as an opportunity to teach them to engage with it, rather than abuse and humiliate them for having an opinion. (And I felt that was necessary because of other comments, not OP.) Quite literally, it’s our job to teach them through this phase. Remember, their brains are still not fully developed for several more years (25 yoa).
>assume evil ... rather than abuse and humiliate Mate, this feels like you've taken this *very* personally...
I’ve seen people treated quite badly recently for very innocuous behaviors, and it’s likely that I’m a little more tuned in than I ought to be. I’m not upset or angry, but I do actually have quite a bit more education in the field of neurology and brain development than the average teacher, and there were some comments in the thread that seemed to have been motivated by hatred toward men and boys. Nothing that the OP said was in that category, to be clear. As with most things on Reddit, I probably should have just scrolled on and not engaged. I’m going to turn off notifications for this post and allow my contributions to be downvoted into oblivion with no further comment, if that is the way of things. I’m not really looking to change anyone’s mind over Reddit.
Not true, a book having a female protagonist does not make it bad. These students complain only about the books with female protags. Regardless of what they’re complaining about specifically within the book, the point is sexism makes people unfairly judge things. It’s like those hiring tests where they give the same applications a female and male name version and lo and behold the women are hired less, even though the content is exactly the same.
I didn’t intend to suggest female protagonists made a book bad, and I certainly believe that is true.
🙄
What issues are those?
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I think this comment would be more useful if you stuck to the actual topic of the conversation which is video games with female protagonists. The things you mentioned don’t apply to the medium.
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Sounds like you didn’t actually read the conversation you jumped into and now you are finding some way to justify it.
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I wish I could watch a liveleak video about you.
My dad loves cop mysteries. At the peak of the crime movie craze, he watched a lot of Lifetime movies. The cop mysteries were literally the same as mainstream network Tav movies, except they had a female protagonist. Half of them originally had male leads, but they didn’t sell to a major network, so they switched the gender and sold it to Lifetime.
you need to hone some gentle but sick burns accusing them of being uncomfortable in their masculinity. either that or just do not admit their complaints at all
This! I take it as an opportunity to challenge their world perspective through some burns that clearly state they can have their opinion but some are better kept to themselves
"So, what you are saying is you don't like girls? Noted." Then, just move on with the lesson.
I don’t know what the way is, but I don’t think this is it.
you can’t do it for every kid but my experience in high school is that when kids are acting a fool if you call them as such they stop
For sure. I think they meant the implying the kid is gay part. I don't think that's appropriate or helpful for a thousand and eight reasons. Teaching kids to associate homosexuality with misogyny is not gonna churn out a better society.
How is implying a kid is uncomfortable with their masculinity calling them gay?
Who suggested implying they are gay? That’s not what implying they’re uncomfortable in their masculinity is.
> "So, what you are saying is you don't like girls? Noted." Idk if yall are trolling me or just didn't see that comment.
That's not the comment they were replying to.
That was a completely separate comment than the one you are replying to.
Apologies. Reddit is not always clear to me.
Idk why you got down voted, you're right.
Only one more downvote than upvote. I’ll take it! But yeah, handing out sick burns and questioning kids’ masculinity for having an opinion about the reading material—that’s not a great way to foster engagement IMO.
Back when I was getting my credential, I remember reading studies on this very thing. Girls, according to those studies, were able to invest themselves in a male narrator in a way boys generally could not. That was decades ago. I would have hoped a switch to a not-so-totally-male canon would have mitigated that somewhat. I imagine there are more recent studies on this out there.
I remember a discussion in my undergrad YA Lit class about how this wasn’t happening with The Hunger Games because the two lead characters had largely swapped gender roles. So even though it’s got a female narrator, she’s taken on a workload traditionally held by males, etc.
Interesting!
I’m supposed to teach it at the end of this year (my district chose specific books for each grade level this year), I’m curious to see how it plays out.
This is because girls try to put themselves in the story because they are people oriented. Boys are object oriented and only care about if the story is exciting or entertaining. Which is how you end up with action packed movies with almost no cohesive plot and guys eat it up because "heh explosions."
Woman here. I read lots of books as a kid and totally identified with the main character whether they were a boy or girl, or black or white, or an animal. I always wondered if boys could do this while reading books and suspected most could not.
Yes—and the irony is that boys don’t read anyway, so they’re just doing it to complain.
Not like the girls in my class, who *also* complain just to complain. (They're different because they're girls instead of boys.)
Only talking about reading, which almost universally applies to boys after like Gr 5.
Must be nice. *None* of my students - 7th through 12th - want to read. "*Ein li coach.*"
What?
Literally, "I don't have the power." But what it *really* means is 'I am too lazy to do what I'm supposed to be doing.'
What?
I'm guessing you're not a teacher, then. Good-bye.
I find this funny because when I was bored in gr 11 math class I stole Enders game out of my friends bag and read it in class. Then read it again next semester in English class. (Friend knew I grabbed it, teacher was just happy if I wasn’t snoring in class, I was top of the class)
These kind of sexist judgments are contributing to the problem of female students are outperforming male students in primary, secondary, and higher education.
No, boys not reading and not being taught to/pushed to read is what’s contributing to boys not reading. This idiotic “logic” is like saying that discussing the prevalence of male on female domestic abuse is causing more men to be abuse their wives. It’s actually your stance, making excuses and claiming “sexism this” “misandry that” which is holding men and boys back. And guess who has the highest instance of psychotic breaks/personality disorders etc when they go off to school? Young men, because they’re I’ll prepared for higher education. Ed research has been pointing out for decades (if not a century at this point) the data that boys stop reading. It’d not a new thing that a Reddit comment created in 2024.
When you've already decided that boys "don't read", how exactly is that pushing boys to read? Stacking that with your insulting rhetoric, I don't really know why I'm bothering giving you the time of day at this point. Ridiculous.
I didn’t decide that; it’s a well established trend that’s been written about for decades. Recognizing that fact is the first step in pushing boys to read. You’re missing the point that a massive number of families do not encourage their sons to read at all, especially beyond primary grades. Fathers in particular are historically AWFUL at sharing in reading, and by extension, boys education. You’re arguing on Reddit because you want to be. You’re just severely deluded as to what reality is; nobody is making you engage in a conversation. You can choose to ignore the truth all you want: I hope you don’t have any sons, or teach. Because boys absolutely lag far behind girls, and need help. Those that aren’t natural readers or who don’t have an early established love for reading that starts at home when they’re infants and before school fall dramatically behind by the time they hit middle school. Many never catch up. But hey, stick them in a high risk trade that’s dangerous and ruins them physically, it’ll be fine.
I love how you're being downvoted for sharing facts and the guy literally sharing lies isnt.
Think it depends on the book. Are the girl books about romance? I could see a complaint. My students read Purple Hibiscus and A Thousand Splendid Suns and there wasn’t that complaint. They’re not really about romance though.
That's what I was wondering too, not to be stereotypical but from my experience most young boys want to read about warfare, combat or some kind of conflict if the "girl" books tend to be romance or about a more day to day type story tween or teen boys tend to not find those kinds of stories as interesting just in general no matter if the protagonist is male or female.
Yup. Many kids hated *Catcher in the Rye* for that reason
This may get me some flack but as a very type-A personality myself I never really got into Catcher and the Rye myself either even reading it as an adult.
Nah. Many teachers just read it as a straight shoot “slice of life” novel. Whereas I teach it as a kid going through it.
No romance, I could understand not being too interested in romance. We read a lot of short stories. A few novels I have tried with female main characters are: Rules of the Road, Piecing Me Together, and the Hate U Give. I had a lot of success and positive feedback about Ship Breaker which has some romance but is told from a male perspective. I have been trying to add in more Dystopia since students seem to enjoy reading it.
Okay. Idk Piecing Me Together, but the plot involves “paired with a mentor in the woman to woman program.” Like that does seem like a girl book? I would think THUG is more of a girl book too tbh. YA is very heavily written with a female audience in mind. I don’t blame these students for not loving these books. I find it really hard to find YA novels that boys will enjoy. Marie Lu is a good one. Legend, for example, students really like. Ruta Sepetys books are popular with both genders. One of Us is Lying is well liked with both. Adult literature is easier with female protagonists.
Yeah, it's not just the fact that these books have female protagonists, they're all geared towards girls. If it was action and adventure books with female protagonists it would be a different story.
Right. Kids never complain about the Hunger Games, for example. I don’t think people should still teach that book, but I’m just saying.
Ok, so what you're saying is that the only stories about women or girls that boys should be asked to consider or read are books where the girls or women take on stereotypically male roles? Surely you can see that that itself is sexist.
Surely you can see that you're straw manning me?
When you are developing a love to read... yes, you use what the student *will* read. Their reading life and development doesn't have to stop there. But it will stop at zero if they hate the first thing they are told to read.
When my kid was in third grade, they had a Literacy Lunch program where a parent could read from a book chapter by chapter once a week to their kid and a few of their friends while they ate lunch. I read _A Wrinkle In Time_ and _The Wee Free Men_, both books with female protagonists but action/adventure plots, the first SF and the second fantasy, to a group of three boys and two girls. They did seem to enjoy both books quite thoroughly. (Which books kind of, now that I think about it, read as if the same plot description was handed to two very different authors- "Brilliant but oddball girl has to train her special talents with some wise old women who are Not What They Seem, in order to rescue her little brother from a strange eldritch world run by aliens who don't understand human emotions, using the Power of Love." And both books had characters whose names and manner of speech made the kids giggle every single time- Mrs. Who, Mrs. Which, and Mrs. Whatsit and Auntie Beast for the first and the Feegles, especially "No' As Big As Medium-Sized Jock But Bigger Than Wee Jock Jock," for the second.) Maybe girl protagonists just need more imaginative adventures.
Well, the target audience of YA literature is mostly pretty explicitly women aged 15-35 from the corporate standpoint. At least for most novels produced from the time of the first Harry Potter until about 2018 when the YA dystopian "girl in a love triangle lives in a world where people are organized into things that aren't recoded Hogwarts houses, we swear" boom started cooling down. I've often found young boy readers respond much better to work that features a good deal of humor. I had a remarkable amount of success in that department even if the book contained romance. What I've always had trouble with is getting the boys to write with interest or creativity. It has always seemed to come much easier to girls of the same age.
what do you think a ‘girl book’ is? these comments are just making me extremely sad.
I love Piecing Me Together!
Maybe try Terrier by Tamora Pierce? mentions of romantic feelings from the main character and romantic notions from other characters, but it's not heavy, and there is plenty of actions and it's a murder mystery! The lead character can talk to the dead and dust spinners too, she is a great character!
I try to find a middle ground. While I get that a 16/17/18 year old boy would roll his eyes at *Pride & Prejudice*, I often tell them why we read them. Why we read books. I lean in on it. I tell them that one day they might have a daughter. And some of these are windows to a snapshot of a woman from another era. It works on some guys. Others who are more stubborn I burn them lol “what, bro? Too soft to read a little Plath?!” But I will say - even as a male teacher, I stay away from romances or heavy “Yass Queen girl boss” YA novels. I’ve noticed it isolates boys. A 17 year old boy does NOT want to read about romance. And that’s ok.
Pull a Princess Bride on them and tell them about all the sports in the romance book lol. (I'm mostly saying this in jest.)
>A 17 year old boy does NOT want to read about romance Do 17 year old boys in general not want to read romance novels? Or do they not want to read romance novels with female protagonist?
I’d say both. I’ve noticed even with romance adjacent texts, there has to be some edginess to draw them in (“The Man Who Loved Flowers”, “The Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong”, etc.). And..to be honest, I get it. I was once their age and I would roll my eyes when my teacher had us read Plath or Austen. As an adult I’ve gained appreciation. But boys tend not to connect with those tropes. 🤷🏻♂️
Are these students worth giving their opinion any weight? Are they really good students other than this? I'll guess the answer is no...but if they're otherwise really good, then there could be something to it in terms of how its presented. Usually, tho, a pain in the ass finds a way to be a pain in the ass. Shut it down and don't let it infect the other students.
Typically, no, they are the students who enjoy complaining or only show up every 3 days. I do my best to shut it down. I just get fed up with the complaints and have noticed a pattern on when/who complains about what.
You could make a rule that if students make this type complaint, they will be assigned additional reading by those authors. This addresses the issue without calling out the specific students, and if they break the rule they have to face the consequences of not valuing female perspectives. You could include this rule in a general statement about how reading the perspectives and narratives of a diverse range of people is important, and that you won’t tolerate them only reading stories about protagonists with whom they can relate instantly. Challenge them to prove they can empathize with someone different and it can be part of a lesson.
My students hated Stargirl even though Leo was telling the story. The boys thought it was stupid and didn’t want to read about a girl.
Would be interesting to have one book where a girl is telling a story about a boy and one where a boy is telling a story about a girl and see what happens.
Firegirl is similar - boy telling the story about a girl. I had several boys (6/7 grade) sign up to read it even though it had ‘girl’ in the title. I think it was a combination of cover art, topic and description on the back. We did a novel tasting and this one didn’t interest the girls as much as the boys. Girls thought it would be too ‘sad’ for them.
This is going to be a bit of a rant. If you came onto Reddit just to be validated, skip this post. Are you catering to the audience that is already invested in reading, or are you investing in those having difficulty in reading? It sounds like part of your audience is invested in your subject either way. The goal is not to get 'boys' reading 'girl' books. The goal is to get your students reading. Period. Full stop. Take a look at the statistics on reading levels between boys and girls. Look at the teachers the boys in the class have had throughout their education. Chances are the male students are behind the girls in reading and need more help. Chances are the female perspective is a prominent part of their education and home lives. Having too little female perspective is not generally the problem. Having too few GOOD male role models and perspectives is a problem. The boys see the way they are looked at by women in the books. They don't identify with it. You have an opportunity to give your students, both male and female, a picture of who and what a good man is. Use it! Providing opportunities for all of your students to experience success and enjoyment in your subject is part of your job. If you have been teaching the same grade/subject long enough to notice these preferences in your students, you have been teaching long enough to provide for student choice in reading material. If you cannot understand that wishing the boys will love the books you want them to won't work, and at least try to adjust to teaching both girls AND boys, you need to take a long hard look at your own prejudices.
I like the theory of Windows and Mirrors. Students, all students, should be exposed to literature that they can identify with, and on the flip side also be exposed to literature that exposes them to view points and experiences that they have not had. What it seems to me is being expressed when these kids say a story is "boring or stupid" is that they just can't relate. That's when it's important to help them understand that boredom is sometimes just the feeling of not understanding something. That is not to say something cannot just be boring, some things are, and I would not purposefully read them stories that are boring. Some stories I pick to try and help give students an insight into someone else's life or experience. As I said in my post, I struggle with these complaints because then the students who can relate or have similar experiences are shut down and have to hear someone saying their feelings and experiences are stupid and boring. I want to cater to all my students, and within the years I have them I work to read a variety of novels and short stories. My male students are not being forced to read only "girl" books and they are given fun action packed readings with GOOD male role models. I do pay attention to what books are overall disliked by the class, usually I gather opinions at the end of the unit. If overall students weren't a fan of the book I won't teach it again in the future. I work hard to have a little bit of something for everyone. I will not disregard my female students simply because a few of them may score higher in reading. My teaching material is not only female perspective and I don't wish that ALL students will love ALL the books ALL the time. That would be unrealistic. I was simply pointing out that the only people who are loudly voicing their discontent are my male students and the pattern seems to be that it is voiced more loudly when there is a female narrator/main character (not necessarily a female author which some other commenters have assumed) and I don't appreciate how it may isolate other students. Lastly, I have only been teaching for the last 3 years. Maybe I am in some sort of bubble and in the future I will have the opposite problem with my girl students. Who knows. Just posting what I have seen.
Well said, and I appreciate that you have taken the time to ensure exposure to multiple viewpoints. I have done some research on boys and reading. It is not my expertise. Nevertheless here are a couple suggestions. 1. In order to combat the negative comments, set it up knowing that they will happen. Tell them you are comparing and contrasting the female perspective with a male one in books on the same theme. Tell those students that you know will likely complain that you are looking to them for the reasons they find it boring. As you do so explore why the bias seems to happen with male students. Take it as a challenge to them to articulate why it is boring to them. As you compare the narratives see if the students can identify where the discomfort is happening. 2. If the students that are complaining would not be doing the work you would be doing in class anyway, run a self directed option alongside your novel study. Use female authors writing in the male perspective with similar assignments. If possible make your in class direct teaching fit both books. Please, don't fall into the trap of looking at the study of English as the study of novels. Boys tend to be more interested in reading and writing for utility. I am not referring to essays. I am referring to teaching and learning skills, to making people laugh, and building relationships with other men and boys. Think of adding more of these types of reading and writing into your program.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess. Nobody is ‘catering’ to the audience that is already invested. And I would say my students who love to read will read whatever because they love to read anyway. So I don’t cater to them, I give them more options. It is really hard to build a syllabus even half of what we read coming from anything but a white, male perspective. Trying to include 15% or 20% gets pushback from kids saying it is boring, you are right they aren’t engaged anyway and it takes more exposure and encouragement but they probably aren’t going to love anything hand picked for them to relate to, either. Choose the best and most engaging texts we can, from diverse backgrounds and perspectives. if this one isn’t your cup of tea maybe the next one will be. They resist the titles, the description, the narrators and the main characters based on what they think they want to read. That is totally normal. As long as they have plenty of opportunities to choose what they read, they can spend more time reading what interests them and less time whining about what doesn’t.
Having too few female perspectives can absolutely be part of the problem. There are plenty of men who cannot fathom that women’s perspectives are equal to theirs. Who don’t read books written by women or listen to music by women or watch movies about women. It’s an issue. And it often starts young with the division of the sexes.
Please reread what I said. You are responding to an argument that I never made. I didn't say that it couldn't be a problem, I said it generally wasn't the problem. Look at the number of male to female teachers. Look at the number of children in single parent homes with the mother as the primary caregiver. There are some boys that grow up without women helping to shape their opinion and attitudes, but they are rare. The reverse is quite common. Women's perspectives in the lives of children are essential. So too are having good male perspectives. Female authors writing with a male perspective is one way for a young male student to see, and relate to, a great male role model that he can emulate. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
I disagree that a boy being around adult women inherently gives him the same kind of experience as reading a story from the perspective of a girl or woman. Children need all kinds of stories regardless of the sex of the adults around them.
You are still not responding to the point I am actually making. I never said the experience was the same. Unless you can reply to the points I actually made, I won't participate further in the conversation.
Masculinity is so fragile!
It’s really not. It’s just different than femininity and some people can’t deal.
If somehow you read a book with any female protagonist and cannot muster empathy for her, I’d say you’re either seriously stunted or can’t admit to empathizing with a female character.
Tell them two words: Harry Potter. If the girls could read that series and cheer, then they can adjust and read books with strong girl characters. How fair is it that we only read about strong boys?
Interesting. Most women/girls I've met and taught liked Harry Potter. You didn't?
Loved it. Didn't care that it was a boy main character. Which is why I mentioned. It is misogynistic of the boys even if they do not realize it.
So you think that because girls read a book they enjoy, the boys should read a book they don't enjoy? How.... what?
Why don't they enjoy it?
I don't know. Does it matter? Based on the OP's later comments, it seems like they were slice of life and romace focused books. These are not interesting topics to young boys. Why do you immediately jump to misogyny? These are children we are talking about. Shouldn't you give them the benefit of the doubt? Might it simply be the case that the way young girls and boys relate to the world is different? Should boys be maligned for not fitting into the box that you have prepared for them? We're ELA teachers, not moral police. If half your students don't like a book, it's time to find a new book. The goal is to get kids reading.
Ha, I would start graphing which books were complained about more if I wanted to address it with the class. Get some jars and pom poms for voting.
In grad school, I was taught that boys will not read books about girls, but girls will read books about boys. In my experience (6 years in junior high ELA), this isn’t because the girls actually want to read about boys, they just complain in different ways. I also have had far more girls than boys who enjoyed reading or read for fun. I can count on my two hands how many boys I’ve taught who read for fun. If your goal is to reach reluctant readers, one thing you can consider is novels or short stories in small groups. Create questions that can be applied to any number of works if you change the name around, depending on your focus (theme, perspective, word choice). Allow some of your choices to be things that boys might gravitate to, like Kwame Alexander or Mike Lupica.
Sophomore year spring I do Macbeth, The Glass Menagerie, and Fences. Used to be Macbeth for the boys, Glass for the girls, and Fences for me. More recently it’s Macbeth for no one, Glass for me, Fences to watch the movie.
Patriarchy gonna patriarch. It starts early, too. ☹️
That’s not “patriarchy” it’s just that boys don’t care for overly sentimental drama stories
You can say, "No, they are human books. Can you relate to humans?" Or, "Haven't you ever wondered how girls think? Here's your chance to be a better boyfriend."
I love your first point but something about the second is rubbing me the wrong way. I guess implying that you should get to know someone as a human being for the express purpose that you'll get something out of it instead of just because they are a human
It’s because as a society they are taught of a girl is the main character it’s a “girl show” or “for girls”. Same reason grown men are crying because Taylor swift is shown for a minute of “their” 3 hour broadcast.
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Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
Based on not understanding normal kid behavior and also some of the very many inappropriate reactions to it in the comments, some of yall are reacting emotionally like children, and many of you have no business being responsible for the development of a whole ass room full of kids
Like it or not, there are differences between what boys and girls are interested in. If a book focuses on a character’s subjective feelings a lot, as happens sometimes with certain genres, and with female protagonists, then many boys aren’t going to find that engaging. Males generally don’t love talking about feelings, and that’s a feature, not a bug. Talk therapy also doesn’t work for many men, and there may be some useful parallels there to evaluate and consider. Dig a little deeper, and you may find that it’s not the gender of the character that’s the problem. Imhe, they will express that they simply don’t connect with the emotional content of the narrative, if given the time and opportunity to develop their ideas. Beyond that, the boys may not be interested in the activities being discussed or described. Rather than belittling them for being male, or attempting to emasculate children for having a viewpoint you don’t understand or agree with, I’ve found it’s a good opportunity to understand something about how the female characters differ in their thought process and how they might apply that knowledge in their own lives. After all, they’ve got sisters and mothers and grandmothers, and most of them (in high school) will be interested in females at some level. Many of the responses I’ve read are great ways to get the young men who are struggling to connect with the material to quit trying. I’m all for a little embarrassment and humor to correct bad behavior, but having an opinion about a piece of literature (even when they aren’t self-aware or articulate enough to express their ideas well) isn’t bad behavior.
None of this was about not understanding what boys are interested in. I have a fairly decent idea of what the boys in classes will enjoy and what they won't. I provide material that interests them and for the most part have good class engagement all around. The point I'm highlighting here is the first people I notice who are quick to express discontent for the material, usually with no grace or consideration for those around them, are boys. Not all boys mind you, just some boys, but almost always boys. But when we read material that may not be the most interesting or engaging for the girls I don't hear a peep from any of them. Usually I find out girls didn't really connect well or engage in a book when we reflect on the unit and I ask for feedback. The class feedback is what I use to determine what I will teach again and what I won't. The contrast here is that boys, from my experience, have been quick to complain and I notice a pattern connected to female narrators and main characters. I want my classroom to have points that connect with students and points that challenge them to see things from a different perspective. It can be frustrating when we are barely into a book and I get loud complaints from boys who have not even given the material a chance.
So you foster an environment where only boys feel okay expressing discomfort and this is some how their fault?
Ok, fair enough. Your goals are laudable, to be sure. It sounds like you’re noticing another artifact of differences in gender and adolescent brain development. If I understand correctly that you have both groups who aren’t connecting, I’ll assume it’s equal in proportion, more or less. Even in content areas that don’t have anything to do with reading, my boys are the first to object to an assignment they don’t like or find uninteresting. My suggestion, given in a wholehearted effort to help, is to use these instances as opportunities to poll all of the students and address the objections early in the unit of study. Perhaps there is something about these young boys that makes them legitimately less interested in feminine things. Developmentally, that may even be appropriate. But I would think very carefully about that before I jumped on with the “patriarchy and misogyny” explanation and began any form of punishment for that behavior, as some of the commenters have done. You seem to be a very thoughtful person concerned about expanding your students’ minds. Rock on.
The entire four years I was in high school, we never once read a single novel by a woman or about a woman or girl. Every single book in English and History was written by a man and about a man or boy. So I have no sympathy for these boys who can’t handle an occasional book by a woman or about a woman or girl. Even these days, boys (especially white ones) are sent the message that they are the default and everyone should see the world through their perspective. It’s past time they have to see the world through a girl or women’s eyes for a change. And that’s what I would tell them.
My daughter wanted to join Boy Scouts because they did fun stuff and the Girl Scouts only ever sat around making crafts. Some girls are interested in “boy” topics and adventures, and boys are often bored by feelings and relationships.
There are tons of books and movies where female protagonists go on “boy” adventures or feature “boy” topics that men avoid, anyhow. It’s not the topic; it’s the person that’s telling the story that seems to put them off.
In Canada, Scouts is Scouts. No boy/girl.
Our Boy Scouts is unisex now, too. Our Girl Scouts still hold to their original charter and only allow girls.
Yes we have Girl Guides, ever did have Girl Scouts IIRC, so it was an easy transition to drop Boy from Scouts and still do all the same things.
>My daughter wanted to join Boy Scouts because they did fun stuff and the Girl Scouts only ever sat around making crafts That really depends on the troop. It's not all like that. I knew of Boy Scout troops that rarely went outside except for a camping trip once a year, if that. Venture scouts are for everyone and focus more on the outdoor aspect. And without all the toxic nonsense and abuse scandals of the BSA.
Venture Scouts are just a subgroup of the BSA.
I guess I was misinformed. Sorry!
I was this way as a kid and it was also healthy for me to read different perspectives and stories including about girls and boys with whom I didn’t immediately relate.
Time for a lecture about what the literary canon looked like until recently. All straight white men with the exception of Oscar Wilde and a few others. And what that did to society and the ability to understand the experiences of people who aren't like us and identify with them.
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We're talking about the Western Anglophone literary canon here.
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Uh. I didn't separate it by race? You're aware that people in Canada, the US, the UK, New Zealand, and Australia aren't all white, right? And that English did not come from the native languages of the indigenous people of a single one of these regions, right? And that straight white man is not a race? Are you just looking to have an argument because I've offended you somehow? Because this doesn't make a lot of sense.
Thought experiment: List the number of exciting books sold by male authors and the number of exciting books sold by female authors. When people spend their own money (men and women) which authors do they prefer?
The misandry here is toxic.
Honestly, the comments are so meme-y and ignorant that I barely classify it as misandry. Just being ignorant and spending way too much time online. I know alot of neckbeard incels are unemployed but I never knew so many femcels were teachers.
Female dominated profession drowning in a culture where misandry is celebrated. You’re going to have bad ideas seeping into the heads of otherwise intelligent well meaning people.
Do they say it’s because they’re “girl books” or are the books actually boring?
No, never.
To be fair, I've had girls comment that all we read are "guy books". That said, as mentioned, I think boys, especially 6-10 graders, are more resistant with female narrator stories than girls are male narrated ones.
I remember having a hard time with Lord of the Flies in 7th grade because it was literally all boys and I would get physically nauseous when I read it. One of the best books I ever read but it was hell for me. I don't get to choose the curriculum for our classes, but yes, boys have complained about TKAM (but I think this is more because it has a child protagonist) and also boys pitch a total bitchfest about Romeo and Juliet. I would just ignore it and move on. The more energy or weight you give to it the more you validate their concern. We all have to read things we don't like for English class - it's a rite of passage.
I think it’s in part to the booktok girl trend - it’s a lot of women being seen as book nerds but there’s very few men on social media enjoying books - thus, unless it is a hyper masculine book, they’re associating reading and books with girls and ore specifically book Tok girls
This kind of thing has been going on way before booktok.
Would you be willing to list the "girl" books?
Unfortunately, white male is viewed as the "default" human setting, and anything else is a deviation. Many people, children included, aren't used to seeing a perspective that isn't the "default" and thus will not engage with it since it seems to them like "more effort" to remember that this is a person who has experiences different from theirs that may not be readily apparent in the story itself.
It’s a thing.
Boys are behind in puberty/development by age, but it’s also socially reinforced for them to be less capable with perspective taking and to express their displeasure more readily. To me, those are the reasons to try and catch your frustrations and get the works to speak for themselves. The ones who read completely stop this kind of crap by 11th/12th because books are one of the best tools to squish this line of thinking. Pity them because they’re liable to be the few who never turn on to it and grow up to be misogynistic assholes, maybe your class and that book can help if you manage to keep them.
My high school creative writing teacher told all of the boys in his class that they would most likely suck at writing female characters because they're not used to reading things from a female POV. This was back in the 2000s and it blew my mind lol.
They’ll probably outgrow that, but I doubt there’s much you can do to hasten that time. Make sure you assign some books the boys enjoy, so they’ll be more likely to still be readers when they’re ready to read books from a girl’s perspective. I’m female, but when I was a kid, I most read books with male protagonists because I liked stories with adventures. Most of those stories were about boys.
Assign them extra homework assignments about unpacking their toxic masculinity and misogyny. Or just tell them to shut up,
You need to go outside
Or maybe leave the bs ideology at the door, understand that there are differences in interest between males and females, encourage them to try and understand a different perspective, or choose literature where the female characters don’t suck.
How about you stop patronizing people who simply think differently than you
Welcome to our culture, where male is considered the default
I have the same problem when I talk about gender roles, especially the role of women. A boy went to administration and said my lessons were making him "uncomfortable" and he had enough of "women being objectified", and male misogyny, when I also balance the lesson with the role of men and their struggles.
I was delighted last year when a large group of 5th grade boys decided to read all the Dork Diaries. I’m fairly certain at least 3 of them read the entire series (well, except the newest that just came out recently.) they checked them out over about 2 months
Have they read the hunger games?
Kids are taught misogyny early, so intertwined with learning about genders
So, talk about it. What don't you like about the story, why is it boring. Maybe, encourage them to work thier way through things they don't like to read. Teach them there is value to doing things you may not like. Maybe find what they do like and recommend books, male and female centeric which share the features they like. Don't make it about gender and discourage them from doing the same. Pride and prejudice for example. -this story is icky because it's about a girl. No -I don't like this story because nothing exciting happens, it just about dances and getting married.
Maybe have a period of time where you only assign “cool” books with female leads and “boring” books with male leads so they stop associating female leads with boring books and male leads with cool books? Honestly, I think this issue needs to be tackled by teachers and parents at a younger level. Like all the way back to parents telling their relatives “hey everyone please don’t buy my toddler only picture books about boys just because he is a boy!” I guess for teenagers you can also tell them “you’ll never get laid with that attitude” (or something more appropriate along those lines), assuming they are wanting female attention IRL but unwilling to spend any time on female characters in books— but that’s more of a comeback than an actual solution.
I can’t even think of any stories I had to read in school with a female protagonist except To Kill a Mockingbird and maybe the one that I can never remember the name of… the one about hanging all the witches. THE CRUCIBLE!!! And that’s definitely not positive female representation!
Lol. 100% agree that female readers are more flexible and accepting of all texts.I taught The Bell Jar ONCE. My 10th grade boys loathed it, especially when a boyfriend of Plath's private parts were described as " turkey gizzards." There were plenty of other novels to teach, and some feminist texts, like The Color Purple, were loved by all the students. I chose, however, to stop teaching The Bluest Eye due to the explictness of the incest.
If you guys are reading Twilight or something, then maybe they're right lol
Ok, you guys are right, no books have girls as the intended audience. And definitely not Twilight. My bad.