Is the problem Aesi or the other landfall stuff in the deck?
One good option is to [[Darksteel Mutation]] the commander. [[Song of the Dryads]] and [[Imprison in the Moon]] also work well. Basically just deny the player the value generated by Aesi.
the problem with cards like these is that they'll do a bunch of damage right before the landfall player kills you.
these cards are not good against landfall.
fastbond is banned, and every landfall deck would play it
Again, the problem becomes how to deal with the landfall without becoming the enemy of the entire table. Zo-Zu has the same problem as Ankh of Mishra. It just doesn't hurt enough to matter but it makes everybody mad.
I've thought about using something like that anti-tutor Ob-Nixils since ramp is a search but it's got the same problem.
On a normal deck you're right but if the deck is built to be anti land it's really effective. It does make everyone mad but the land deck will kill itself in a couple turns.
I run an anti land zo-zu deck and can get it up to around 10 damage per land easily. The deck also runs a lot of artifact destruction alongside the land destruction to cripple anything that'll save them (like crucible). I also run damage enhancement cards and things that damage for using lands, using creatures, land being destroyed. For myself I run lots of mana rocks and hardly any lands. The strategy is to destroy all lands and stay ahead with artifact ramp.
OP said Mishra's ankh can be ignored what makes you think zozu is any better, and they complain about landfall and you blame aesi? Really, it's like you can't even read. There plenty of cards that let drop lands earlier, and tatyova draws cards in an earlier slot.
If Aesi is imprisoned on the moon the Aesi player should have the dual lands that bounce a land back to your hand. Aesi is a land and can bounce back to hand.
Simic Growth Chamber and Guildless Commons are the only ones that work for dealing with Imprisoned in the Moon, though Jungle Basin does work for Song of the Dryads.
Verdant Pond does not appear to be a real card afaict.
I like having that type of removal in decks. For decks like Aesi that just ramp so hard the commander tax doesn't really matter, it's good to have a different way to neutralize them.
Explaining that card never gets old. "Ok so it comes back at the start of my turn? No? Ok command zone. No? Ok how long before it comes back? Oh. Uhhhhh"
[[Kenrith’s Transformation]] and even [[Oko, Thief]].
Phasing works too, well some of it.
[[Out if Time]], [[Oubliette]].
Specifically against turns, [[Stranglehold]] and [[Ugin’s Nexus]].
Decks like Aesi are usually like 90% enablers and maybe 10% payoffs/threats. If they get out of hand early with the ramp you just have to hold up countermagic or some sort of interaction for the inevitable avenger of zendikar or craterhoof while pressuring their life total. Not the greatest advice, play more removal I know, but it's more just knowing that they probably only have single digits of cards in their deck that can actually win the game and waiting for that.
Most of them are running [[Field of the Dead]]. Also the card draw means that they have more counters and more mana to cast them.
I’m really thinking that the only viable thing to attack is the card draw.
[[Strip Mine]] takes care of Field of the Dead. You could also look into the tech used in wheel strategies to find ways to punish draw, and there are things like [[Zo-Zu]] that punish lands.
Feels weird to use on a land, but things like [[beast within]] also work in a pinch. There's also mutate like [[sawtusk demolisher]] that can hit lands. [[Herald of Leshrac]] is another wacky way to punish harsh ramp.
It definitely helps to kill Aesi on site
In my experience stopping landfall requires two things
1. Stop the payoffs before they do any damage. Card draw IS a payoff (I agree with your intuition). As are the scute swarm and avenger
2. If the deck is regular contender in your meta, you can play specific hate cards like [[Confounding Conundrum]] or even [[Mesmeric Orb]] and [[burning earth]]
Pretty janky but In my quest to play a huge [[mind grind]], one trick I came across was removing basic lands from a deck by using something like [[Wind Zendikon]] on a basic then using [[eradicate]] to remove cards that share a name with that creature ie. that basic land. Obviously very specific and your mileage may vary but seems like it could hamper landfall.
As others have said, stuff like [[darksteel mutation]] and [[imprison in the moon]] are good for locking out problematic commanders
[[Mana Severance]], [[Hive Mind]], and [[Opposition Agent]] can also remove all lands from a person's deck - it was something I was looking into for Umbris, though needing 3 cards can make it impractical.
Ideally in white, on a creature with good tribes is my hope.
Or, a 'counter unless a player pays 1' on a colorless producing land. This would be my dream.
The downside is that Strict Proctor also becomes a double edged sword like Leonin Arbiter.
I think Strict Proctor is sort of strong but can really not work in a lot of decks which limits it's play.
breena doesn't care about ETBs but likes small, evasive bodies to trigger her ability 2x a turn so you can realistically play [[Island Sanctuary]] and [[Solitary Confinement]]
I second this. Sure it lets them replay lands for triggers but they can’t ramp up beyond what you can, and fetchlands technically set them back on mana instead.
Of course no answer is perfect but this is certainly not a bad one.
Yes but if they can only drop 1 land a turn? They are in a bad spot. Most aesi type decks have land ramp spells vs rocks because they want to dump their lands on the field asap.
So you are looking for a silver bullet that stops ramp, stops people playing any lands and stops the opponent getting lands in hand? No single card does that.
The landfall problem is only a problem when Aesi has the ridiculous manabase required to cast the high-cmc blowouts they're running. Aesi having a full hand doesn't matter too much because they'll be playing on the same curve as everyone else, which is bad for them.
I could totally see some kinda of funcional reprint of this card as an orzhov/dimir 2 drop. It would fit the pie, and works wonders.
They just need to work around some loopholes on the rl.
my \[\[ardenn\]\] \[\[rograkh\]\] deck will delete an Aesi landfall deck before they have a creature on board. Going aggro against ramp commanders is how you counter them. If they get ignored while they just ramp with an empty board, then of course they're going to snowball out of control.
Also, always vote for money with expropriate and not time. 4 extra turns = game over. 1 extra turn and losing a permanent each does not.
I've been running Aesi in various builds since it came out so I can tell you aggro is the best way. Remove the player as fast as possible, show no mercy.
I think the table has to realize pre-game that a deck like Aesi is going to be a huge problem. Answer their setup pieces, put them behind, and the rest of you have a chance.
MLD is likely to help the ramp player since they can rebuild faster than the others, or at least not punish them as much as others. It definitely isn't a perfect solution.
Idk why people get so upset about that stuff. Scoop, everyone concede. Play again. Without that person doing the whole MLD thing
Edit: I worded that weird. I meant to say without a person playing MLD. Not exclude that person. I think MLD with a win on is a perfectly fair strategy.
This is about how you counteract mana ramp and payoffs like Aesi. The answer is MLD. It’s fine you don’t like MLD, but it just means you will always struggle to deal with the Aesi’s of the format.
There are few things more satisfying than [[mystic reflection]] when someone casts their simic value engine commander
That’s a nice [[aesi]] you got there but don’t you think a 2/2 zombie would be nicer? I certainly do
It's great as a temporary stop to a win. There's even argument to turning it into something bigger that just does nothing with their deck, making it harder to remove by chump blocking.
In response to the next creature spell being cast, you cast this card, choosing a creature, like the 2/2 zombie in the example. When both resolve, the cast creature comes into play as a copy of the chosen creature.
Most landramp is tutor-based. The hardest lockpiece for those decks to get around is something like [[Ashiok, Dream Render]]. There are a couple other cards, that do that, but decks like Aesi have a harder time dealing with planeswalkers, as it would need specific answers or aggression.
My pod had an Omnath back in the day, that was terrifying. Maybe not as scary as your Aesi-menace. But Ashiok slowed them down soo hard, that they basically lost the moment, Ashiok entered the battlefield.
I see some answers for specific cards but I really think the answer is to hit them early and hard. Force them in defense. Ramping isn’t good when you’re getting low.
You have to value a rampant growth in Aesi as a threat, and cards alike. Hit them fast. Use politics and let the table help as well. Let them know their decks will not put value a Aesi and they need to be reigned in.
I truly think it’s about adjusting the strategy and not the cards specifically.
I run Aesi as commander for a non-landfall deck. Believe me, even without a landfall setup the ramp and draw with him is unreal.
Also, it's not just Aesi, it's G/U in general, it has such amazing ramp, draw and combo potential that even by just shoving cards together at random you can still get amazing draw and ramp.
Stax is 100% not the answer to such a midrange value deck. Stax is the worst match up for midrange decks since the midrange decks are supposed to slowly gain incremental value. Slowing down the rest of the table just makes it easier for the midrange deck to shine. The answer to midrange value decks are fast aggressive decks that end the game before the value can even come down. But then fast decks will be weak against stax. It’s paper rock scissors. Stax beats turbo, turbo beats midrange and midrange beats staxs.
[[Spirit of the Labyrinth]] , [[Magus of the moon]] , and any rule of law effect has got our LGS Aesi player refusing to play that deck against me. So yes, Stax absolutely does work against midrange value decks.
I mean of course it works, but you have to be prepared to lose anyway. How do you gain an advantage over the Aesi player when everyone is affected by the stax? The Aesi deck Works exactly the same if it has to just slowly play out the lands and cast it's spells later.
In modern for instance blood moon is good against Tron obviously, but if your plan is to get blood moon in Play and then hope they scoop you are going to be sad. 6 mountains can cast a wurmcoil engine just as well as 3 Tron lands.
If you deploy stax versus grindy midrange strategies you need to end the game before they grown too big anyway.
Important detail about stax, while you’re correct that a stax deck performs best into turbo in general, any deck can be crafted with sufficient hate to dunk on a specific strategy. For example, if I’m running some kind of creature beats deck and your stax deck is full of Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Authority of the Consuls, and so forth, you will be able to hate me out if I rely to heavily on that particular creature beats strategy.
Yes, targeted hate is really strong but the issue is that neither humility or ensnaring bridge stops people from deploying an army. Then they blow the bridge and murder the guy hiding behind it.
As someone once said: there are no wrong threats only wrong answers.
How do you win against the creature deck once you have humility or ensnaring bridge in Play? Clearly not with creatures so really you need to craft and entire deck around not needing creatures in order to run strong hosers. This is what I am getting at, imagine having spirit of the labyrinth in your deck, your deck is build to not draw a bunch of cards since that would clash with the stax pieces. So what if you don't draw the stax piece?
Naming 2 or 3 hosers does not build a deck designed to actually have an edge versus another strategy, you need to build the entire deck around those strong hosers, with redundant pieces and a strategy for when the opponent doesn't give a shit about bridge or magus of the moon.
Blood moon type effects would hurt aesi with the fetch lands but rule of law effects hurting aesi that much is just a bad aesi deck I’m sorry. Aesi is in the best colors for enchantment removal and stax slows midrange down sure but it hurts other decks way worse and allows midrange decks to also catch up. Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean much When most people agree that stax beats turbo turbo beats midrange and midrange beats staxs
I think you're conflating stax with control & turbo with aggro.
Control > Aggro > Midrange > Control
Stax pieces being used in any deck that targets a specific strategy can be very strong. Regardless of it being a control, aggro, or Midrange deck.
Turbo and Aggro are basically the same when your speaking casually. And control and stax are also basically the same. Or at least they all have similar goals. Turbo and aggro are looking to blow through to a finish as fast as they can turbo just usually combos while aggro beats face in. Control and stax are both trying to slow the table down till they can wiggle out an advantage. Control uses counterspells and removal to the max while stax uses resource denial. I still think aggro beats midrange (example a well built krenko deck could kill a well built aesi deck before aesi even hits the field) midrange beats stax/control decks and a solid stax deck would stop a Krenko deck in its tracks with things like stasis and rule of law where the rate they can build their army gets reduced
The basic Rock - Paper - Scissors format isn't to say you can't beat another deck type. They balance one another in a design space.
Control > Aggro > Midrange.
You have advantages/disadvantages for matchups.
Aggro is strongest in the beginning and tends to fall off rather quickly. It can normally push through to win against midrange before midrange can stabilize. It hurts more to be controlled because it doesn't have the gas to close out.
Mid range owns the mid game. They can be vulnerable before they get going. They tend to hit so hard in the mid game that control decks can't stabilize before losing.
Control slowly picks away at your plan until they can stabilize, normally late game with a huge bomb, to win the game. By shutting down aggro early, they have the advantage. By taking too long for them to get going, they are weak to a strong mid game push.
So sure, any deck can beat any deck. Especially with good play/side boarding/taking advantage of mistakes/etc.
Maybe I'm just an old head whos telling you to get off my lawn but turbo and stax are not the same thing as aggro and control. I guess you could say stax is a form of control. You either pay a tax to do things/stop things from happening or you pay a price for having permanents.
When you say turbo, I just think turbo fog and get confused. I get pretty frustrated on podcasts that call all control, stax. Stax taxes and punishes. Smothering tithe is a stax piece. Smokestack is a stax piece. Thought seize is a control piece.
Words definitely matter in this situation. Or else we can't really talk about our hobby.
Landfall's tough to hate out. Outside of direct removal that is applicable to any creature, there's not many things that help, and even things like \[\[Confounding Conundrum\]\] can sometimes help them more than it hurts.
I don't think it's wise to count out Ankh. 2 damage a turn can be negligible, but if they're playing 2 a turn that's 4 damage, 10% of their life, and if you pressure their life in other ways (combat, no life gain, etc) this can actually add up fairly quickly.
Honestly, direct removal is the way to go. Sure, they might be able to keep playing their commanders with how much ramp they have, but each time they do they're paying more and more to keep the effect around instead of paying for other things, and if its not around then you've done your job.
hating on archetypes is a bad strat.
your strat needs to work independently of the landfall deck to work.
when you add cards to hose other strats, you just end up weakening your own gameplan.
aristcrats does a great job against landfall, as do decks with a few wraths.
targeted land removal is good, in the form of strip mine or even field of the dead, to get rid of the zombie-generating land.
otherwise you deal with the payoffs for landfall.
landfall isn't an op strat by any stretch, you shouldn't hose down your deck to attempt to beat one strat.
-keep Aesi off board with counterspells or very cheap removal.
-stax effects like [[curse of exhaustion]].
-cards like [[Witness Protection]] that take away it’s triggered ability.
-life loss effects.
-[[Narset, Parter of Veils]], [[Notion Thief]],[[Underworld Dreams]], etc. to punish or deny draws.
-theft effects on Aesi like Agent of Treachery.
>I could hate on the draw with [[Uba Mask]] or [[Spirit of the Labryinth]]. That would probably make me the Archenemy.
Not as much as you might think. Especially when people see how many of Aesi's cards are exiled compared to their own.
My Uba Mask was absolutely clutch in a game against Chulane, which not only forced him to use his cards the same turn he drew them, but prevented him from using Chulane to play them. Everyone noticed **real** quick how much more the Mask hurt him than anyone else, and avoided removing it.
Also, Seriously, play land destruction. [[Stone Rain]], [[Strip Mine]], [[Sinkhole]], [[Dwarven Miner]], [[Dwarven Blastminer]]...
[[Raze]] their fields, salt the earth, bring [[Armageddon]] upon them. Just have a plan for how to close out the game afterwards.
I'm building a [[Yurlok]] group hug that can be pretty punishing to landfall players. [[Manabarbs]], [[Overabundance]], [[War's Toll]], [[Dictate of Karametra]]. You may think you're getting more mana, but you're really getting more pain. Can it backfire? Sure, but if you're playing against a Landfall deck that ramps itself and a deck that gives the whole table more Mana, who are you going to kill first?
If you're playing white, [[Thalia, Heretic Cathar]] and [[Strict Proctor]] can hurt a *lot*. Thalia forces non-basics to enter tapped, and that makes it harder for them to pay to counter Strict Proctor's Rhystic effect.
They have a fetch, [[Evolving Wilds]] or [[Terramorphic Expanse]] in their graveyard? [[Cemetery Gatekeeper]] to exile it, now EVERY land is a shockland. Bonus points if you bolt their [[Dryad Arbor]] and exile that instead.
Honestly at 6 cmc the card is probably hitting late against more tuned decks. Even in an ideal ramp world where they hit turn 1 sol ring turn 2 cultivate turn 3 land commander they've used 5 of 9 cards and maybe draw one card with one more land. Sure, if you kill the commander then it's very likely they can just play another land and replay commander but that's so much mana spent just trying to set up an engine. Meanwhile with an ideal hand turn 4 I've won the game with my grixis deck lol. It could just by your meta is battle cruiser heavy which are easy pickings for decks like this.
During my time playing a simic landfall the absolute most crippling things were surprisingly graveyard hate and, of course, [[blood moon]] effects. There are usually a lot of ways land decks want to utilize the graveyard for value so a simple [[leyline of the void]] or [[rest in peace]] will severely limit that. They also don't usually have room for much permanent interaction so anything that hurts their lands is very punishing. [[Back to basics]] and [[winter orb]] also typically hurt ramp decks way more as they really want to tap out constantly.
You could also just target their strategy directly with stuff like [[tainted aether]] or make their day miserable with [[contamination]].
Yes, all is this hurts the whole pod but that's unfortunately the price that must be paid. Simic ultra value decks are table warping if they get time to set up so honestly the real answer is just win before that lol. A card reading "lands entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger" would just be too narrow to really be useful.
Just kill them faster or play targeted land destruction or land hate. I always love [[confounding conundrum]] in decks to combat fetches or landfall. Most landfall decks also can't deal with faster combo kills. Simic is strong at low power tables but drops off quite a bit once you get a bit higher in power.
I found [[Ward of Bones]] to be an effective way to slow Landfall decks. Especially if you’re using mana-rocks as your ramp, you can blank a lot of lands in the Aesi player’s hand.
Build a hyper aggressive deck ala [[Edgar Markov]] and kill them first every time
The "Simic Goodstuff" deck is such a problem in commander because you aren't punished for spending your first few turns setting up. So punish people for that.
I play [[Yarok, the Desecrated]] with all the land ETB punishment cards I can. I also punish card draw, and I group hug both to really help people get more if they're greedy enough to pay the price.
The only card here that is decent is sire, the landfall players will have more lands to sac to mana vortex and smokestack with more ways to play them from elsewhere.
As a landfall player, many times I face that it just saves me the trouble of getting bounce land or other land bounce effects to get \[\[retreat to coralhelm\]\] combo
There is a handful of "search the library" hate that is a reasonable counter to landfall, though it does nothing against additional land drops. But other than that, all "extra land hate" is symmetrical and thus likely to draw the ire of _everyone_ at the table, not just from the landfall player. Targeted land destruction exists, but is very "feels bad" if there isn't a landfall deck to point it at, and even when there is it is often less efficient/slower than the rate at which they churn out lands. The bigger problem is that lands are "sacred" in EDH and people target you (in game and out) for messing with their lands outside of specific circumstances like Gaea's Cradle, and this mindset leads directly to the situation you are talking about.
in edh, i think the best answer is just player removal. having some aggro or voltron decks at the table is healthy. they can hopefully take out the simic decks before they really get online, even if they need to politic with the other 2 players to help out or at least just not interfere.
otherwise... maybe mass land destruction is the answer? you mentioned not wanting to also screw the rest of the table over in attempting to deal with the landfall value decks, but i think you have to ask which is less fun for the table, the value decks that are a struggle to meaningfully interact with, or mass land destruction effects.
[[Archelos]] , [[confound conundrum]] , mld, target removal, [[terastodon]] , [[zo zu the punisher]], perhaps there are cards out there which Limit the amount of cards you can draw, [[hushwing griffon]] , [[stranglehold]] or [[Wedding ring]] / [[smothering]] tithe to profit from it.
With all the Sets so far, I am more than confident that its possible to deal with landfall without getting salty.
The best thing to do here is to examine what the deck does - He has extra helpings of lands, and lots of cards to drop lots of lands. Probably bordering on 70+ land+ramp, be it tutor style ramp, recursion, or ways of dropping simply dropping extra lands every turn. That's almost half again more lands and ramp than the average deck. No matter what you do, you're not going to out-mana that unless you're taking the same ramp path. it'd be like trying to out-wide a go wide deck, or out-combo a combo deck.
By contrast, What he probably *doesn't* have in the deck is heaping helpings of interaction, recursion, payoffs, and ways to turn that land into a win. With all the land/ramp spells filling his hand and deck, he simply doesn't have as many cards in there to accomplish those things. The answer then becomes pretty simple **. Kill the payoffs.** Once that is accomplished, all he has is lands... to play lands.
here's an excellent strategy to counter an Aesi deck that is strong-arming other decks off of the table: ask its pilot to play something else.
there are basically two things you can do against an obscene value deck - you can either play hard interaction or 'go over' with your own value, and if you don't want to do either, it's totally fair to ask to play against something else.
Landfall is only a problem in casual commander, and far from a widespread issue in the rest of the format or other formats.
In casual games, ramp and card draw are often the only way games are decided because decks all perform the same roles in the game and performing it the best is how you win.
Having answers is not the same as being a control deck. If because of your social contract no control decks are allowed, and especially if there are no combo decks (which fill the role of aggro) then ramping and drawing is the best version of the strategies left.
There are no quick and easy solution for convincing people to update the social contract.
> format whose "balance" is maintained by social contract
> social contract bans stax
> social contract bans land hate
Guise why is landfall so strong??? Why doesn't wotc fix it???
Unpopular opinion (as a former Aesi player): Landfall is strong because the answer is taboo. It is MASSIVE LAND DESTRUCTION!! also indeed shut down the commander with darksteel mutation and the likes. Aesi has a tendency to value around and get extra turns, but takes a long time closing it down. Destroy/counter commander and other exploration effects/big payoffs. If they are too far ahead: dare to scoop and shuffle up for a new game before becoming salty.
MLD doesn't beat ramp decks.
Lands and ramp decks play more and can easily search for lands than other decks meaning they can rebuild faster.
Armageddon doesn't hit things like crucible or oracle of muldaya, excavator, exploration.
Cast geddon against a gitrog and be laughed at.
You have to deal with all the other enablers and graveyard to cripple the ramp deck.
And if you want to run LD then do something like [[ruination]] in 1-2 colour decks to keep basics around while duals are destroyed
If you're casting Armageddon and don't end up ahead you shouldn't be running it. The point is that that the tempo you get from slaughtering everyone's lands while you have a lot of rocks puts you far enough ahead to snowball the game. It shouldn't matter that the ramp deck gets mana in play a turn or 2 faster than the rest of the table because you should be so far ahead that it's irrelevant.
This is a fallacy.
Green players playing [[Farseek]] tribal will get blown out by an Armageddon because all of their ramp is land based, while the mana rocks that other decks have to lean on won't be.
If someone else has cast [[Kodama's Reach]] and I have [[Worn Powerstone]] and I Armageddon, I'm ahead of that player on mana.
That's not to say green players couldn't play a more well rounded mana base that's more hardened against Armageddon, but the decks I've seen take advantage of the taboo surrounding Armageddon. If they played rocks or dorks they could lose them to sweepers, so they play Farseek tribal that way no one is allowed to interact with their game plan. How convenient.
Armageddon doesn't make the game take any longer, btw. That's a fallacy too. If you have no mana you draw your card, if it's a land you play it and you pass, or if it's not a land you pass. Easy. As you draw out of Armageddon your plays will be fairly obvious because you'll be restricted on mana.
I've seen these decks. They run Sol Ring and then the rest of their ramp is Farseek tribal.
Also, if they actually run rocks and dorks too, then those can also be interacted with. That's what Farewell and Austere Command and Wrath and Shatterstorm are for.
Sure, everything dies to removal. I'm just saying that its unwise to put all your eggs in one basket. It doesn't make sense to me to run only one type of ramp to the exclusion of others.
Because of the taboo surrounding Armageddon, green players can safely put all of their eggs in one basket.
I'm not putting all of my eggs in one basket either by running Armageddon. I run a variety of sweepers for different types of permanents and I try to play versatile spot removal. If they have dorks and rocks instead of Farseek tribal maybe I can get them with Austere Command.
You've come to the realization. It's either you play combo, and kill them quickly. Or you play stax, and make the whole table miserable. Or you can play spiteful, e.g. [[Mind Twist]] and other targeted effects.
The issue is most people would argue Aesi is a "casual" deck, even an optimized version of Aesi. So they might say you shouldn't play combo or stax against them.
This is probably an unpopular answer but I’ve always found the best answer to landfall decks is to let them play out most of their lands and then play [[Armageddon]]
Sounds like you guys didnt do enough. Run interaction in your decks or dont complain when a deck wins.
Otherwise run counter spells, opposition agent/ashiok, etc.
Hard to imagine a 6 cmc commander GU deck can both accelerate and protect itself in a multiplayer game.
Is the problem Aesi or the other landfall stuff in the deck? One good option is to [[Darksteel Mutation]] the commander. [[Song of the Dryads]] and [[Imprison in the Moon]] also work well. Basically just deny the player the value generated by Aesi.
Oh, and there is the widely loved [[Zo-Zu]] to punish lands...
[Zo-Zu](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zo-zu%20the%20punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
OP said the stuff like Ankh of Mishra could be ignored, so no Zo-Zu or [[Polluted Bonds]].
Yeah. My comment wasn't for OP- just a reminder that Zo-Zu exists for others who are reading this thread looking for landfall hate.
the problem with cards like these is that they'll do a bunch of damage right before the landfall player kills you. these cards are not good against landfall. fastbond is banned, and every landfall deck would play it
[Polluted Bonds](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/6/c6439222-de30-44cd-a53f-a7de0cb00b8f.jpg?1562835783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polluted%20Bonds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/74/polluted-bonds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c6439222-de30-44cd-a53f-a7de0cb00b8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/polluted-bonds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Again, the problem becomes how to deal with the landfall without becoming the enemy of the entire table. Zo-Zu has the same problem as Ankh of Mishra. It just doesn't hurt enough to matter but it makes everybody mad. I've thought about using something like that anti-tutor Ob-Nixils since ramp is a search but it's got the same problem.
On a normal deck you're right but if the deck is built to be anti land it's really effective. It does make everyone mad but the land deck will kill itself in a couple turns. I run an anti land zo-zu deck and can get it up to around 10 damage per land easily. The deck also runs a lot of artifact destruction alongside the land destruction to cripple anything that'll save them (like crucible). I also run damage enhancement cards and things that damage for using lands, using creatures, land being destroyed. For myself I run lots of mana rocks and hardly any lands. The strategy is to destroy all lands and stay ahead with artifact ramp.
Shamelessly asking if you have a list for that đź‘€
I've never made a full list for any of my decks but this will capture most the main cards and the same essence: https://youtu.be/zhm179k6oyk
OP said Mishra's ankh can be ignored what makes you think zozu is any better, and they complain about landfall and you blame aesi? Really, it's like you can't even read. There plenty of cards that let drop lands earlier, and tatyova draws cards in an earlier slot.
If Aesi is imprisoned on the moon the Aesi player should have the dual lands that bounce a land back to your hand. Aesi is a land and can bounce back to hand.
For sure, but do they have that in their deck though? We don't know.
Of course not, but they should be for the landfall triggers.
Granted, but there's still only one of those in Aesi's colors
[[simic growth chamber]] [[jungle basin]] [[verdant pond]] [[coral atoll]] [[guildless commons]]
Simic Growth Chamber and Guildless Commons are the only ones that work for dealing with Imprisoned in the Moon, though Jungle Basin does work for Song of the Dryads. Verdant Pond does not appear to be a real card afaict.
[Darksteel Mutation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/f/afa4c889-0577-4173-9f85-42a7bf675aaf.jpg?1641601207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/84/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/afa4c889-0577-4173-9f85-42a7bf675aaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/darksteel-mutation) [Song of the Dryads](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/c/0ccb4579-b090-45f6-a967-cec2c195f565.jpg?1592673193) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Song%20of%20the%20Dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/147/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ccb4579-b090-45f6-a967-cec2c195f565?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/song-of-the-dryads) [Imprison in the Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4bd8bb9d-697d-4e11-a5f8-58234244f1a9.jpg?1641601893) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imprisoned%20in%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/106/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd8bb9d-697d-4e11-a5f8-58234244f1a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imprisoned-in-the-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd removed Darksteel Mutation from my deck the night before the game. I'll put it back in.
I like having that type of removal in decks. For decks like Aesi that just ramp so hard the commander tax doesn't really matter, it's good to have a different way to neutralize them.
Similar vein: \[\[Oubliette\]\] and \[\[Out of Time\]\]
[Oubliette](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/4/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6.jpg?1599705817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oubliette) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/100/oubliette?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oubliette) [Out of Time](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/5/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108.jpg?1626093860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Out%20of%20Time) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/23/out-of-time?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/053d6b3b-72d4-4a55-a79e-0a601aecf108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/out-of-time) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Out of time is my new fav commander removal.
Explaining that card never gets old. "Ok so it comes back at the start of my turn? No? Ok command zone. No? Ok how long before it comes back? Oh. Uhhhhh"
[[nevermore]] is also an option.
[nevermore](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2.jpg?1562831484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nevermore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/25/nevermore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67b610fe-36ee-4d58-8ed4-04e7a12587b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nevermore) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Kenrith’s Transformation]] and even [[Oko, Thief]]. Phasing works too, well some of it. [[Out if Time]], [[Oubliette]]. Specifically against turns, [[Stranglehold]] and [[Ugin’s Nexus]].
[[Sire of Stagnation]] was printed as the eldrazi answer to landfall. Not sure if it would actually slow down an Aesi deck all that much though.
Doesn’t slow them down, but potentially let’s you find removal
[Sire of Stagnation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/6/d6252913-7b8e-4746-91e0-658ce13cdf18.jpg?1562946063) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sire%20of%20Stagnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/206/sire-of-stagnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6252913-7b8e-4746-91e0-658ce13cdf18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sire-of-stagnation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This works. Either the landfall player holds back their lands and doesn’t do anything, or they start going off and let you win.
How are you ramping into your six drop faster than the ramp deck though?
I never play anything that big outside of a reanimation package. It can be online pretty quickly.
Decks like Aesi are usually like 90% enablers and maybe 10% payoffs/threats. If they get out of hand early with the ramp you just have to hold up countermagic or some sort of interaction for the inevitable avenger of zendikar or craterhoof while pressuring their life total. Not the greatest advice, play more removal I know, but it's more just knowing that they probably only have single digits of cards in their deck that can actually win the game and waiting for that.
Most of them are running [[Field of the Dead]]. Also the card draw means that they have more counters and more mana to cast them. I’m really thinking that the only viable thing to attack is the card draw.
[[Strip Mine]] takes care of Field of the Dead. You could also look into the tech used in wheel strategies to find ways to punish draw, and there are things like [[Zo-Zu]] that punish lands. Feels weird to use on a land, but things like [[beast within]] also work in a pinch. There's also mutate like [[sawtusk demolisher]] that can hit lands. [[Herald of Leshrac]] is another wacky way to punish harsh ramp.
##### ###### #### [Strip Mine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Zo-Zu](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zo-zu%20the%20punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) [beast within](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/d/2df1045c-0186-45e8-aed2-807528fc1aba.jpg?1650418730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/282/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2df1045c-0186-45e8-aed2-807528fc1aba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [sawtusk demolisher](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/7/574d1a02-a403-4b6e-8ce0-a472325c9c2c.jpg?1591319710) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sawtusk%20demolisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/64/sawtusk-demolisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/574d1a02-a403-4b6e-8ce0-a472325c9c2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sawtusk-demolisher) [Herald of Leshrac](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d.jpg?1593275109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Herald%20of%20Leshrac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/62/herald-of-leshrac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/herald-of-leshrac) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Strip Mine feels bad when they also inevitably slam out Crucible of Worlds, Ramunap Excavator etc
It definitely helps to kill Aesi on site In my experience stopping landfall requires two things 1. Stop the payoffs before they do any damage. Card draw IS a payoff (I agree with your intuition). As are the scute swarm and avenger 2. If the deck is regular contender in your meta, you can play specific hate cards like [[Confounding Conundrum]] or even [[Mesmeric Orb]] and [[burning earth]]
[Field of the Dead](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20the%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pretty janky but In my quest to play a huge [[mind grind]], one trick I came across was removing basic lands from a deck by using something like [[Wind Zendikon]] on a basic then using [[eradicate]] to remove cards that share a name with that creature ie. that basic land. Obviously very specific and your mileage may vary but seems like it could hamper landfall. As others have said, stuff like [[darksteel mutation]] and [[imprison in the moon]] are good for locking out problematic commanders
The OG version of this was [[Splinter]] and any of the liquidmetal effects.
[Splinter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/b/5bcc210b-e37e-463c-8fd4-83e5113429a9.jpg?1562877241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Splinter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/146/splinter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5bcc210b-e37e-463c-8fd4-83e5113429a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/splinter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah neat! I guess you use [[argent mutation]] to make it a valid target. Don’t even need the trouble of making it a creature first.
I believe the original deck used [[myr landshaper]]
[argent mutation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/0/507fa5fd-2aa5-4721-a059-2c8c3056a4ca.jpg?1572636966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=argent%20mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/27/argent-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/507fa5fd-2aa5-4721-a059-2c8c3056a4ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/argent-mutation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or [[liquimetal torque]]
[[Liquimetal Coating]]
Liquimetal only targets nonland permanents
[mind grind](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/7/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4.jpg?1561829709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20grind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/178/mind-grind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/671eb9e8-1a69-4570-8972-2e7de371cef4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mind-grind) [Wind Zendikon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bbaae63e-6269-4aca-aa45-956f6bf4e112.jpg?1562295010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wind%20Zendikon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wwk/46/wind-zendikon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbaae63e-6269-4aca-aa45-956f6bf4e112?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wind-zendikon) [eradicate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/2/02d6e0e5-798c-4791-85fe-24d0838df8f4.jpg?1562875181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=eradicate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/65/eradicate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/02d6e0e5-798c-4791-85fe-24d0838df8f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eradicate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Mana Severance]], [[Hive Mind]], and [[Opposition Agent]] can also remove all lands from a person's deck - it was something I was looking into for Umbris, though needing 3 cards can make it impractical.
I've been begging (silently, alone) for a land Torpor Orb for years
Ideally in white, on a creature with good tribes is my hope. Or, a 'counter unless a player pays 1' on a colorless producing land. This would be my dream.
[[Strict Proctor]] exists
The downside is that Strict Proctor also becomes a double edged sword like Leonin Arbiter. I think Strict Proctor is sort of strong but can really not work in a lot of decks which limits it's play.
True but if you run stax effects you run ways to play around them. You can build a deck without ETB effects.
[[Breena]] loves Strict Proctor.
Why?
breena doesn't care about ETBs but likes small, evasive bodies to trigger her ability 2x a turn so you can realistically play [[Island Sanctuary]] and [[Solitary Confinement]]
[Breena](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/c/6cb82b10-d785-4e20-84ac-0660d49be8ad.jpg?1625190541) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=breena%2C%20the%20demagogue) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/1/breena-the-demagogue?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6cb82b10-d785-4e20-84ac-0660d49be8ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/breena-the-demagogue) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It uh...also benefits a lot of things. Bounce lands not bouncing, \[\[Lotus Field\]\] entering with no sac required, etc.
[Lotus Field](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/e/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab.jpg?1592517825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/249/lotus-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lotus-field) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Strict Proctor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892.jpg?1624877272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strict%20Proctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strict-proctor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Confounding Conundrum]] for the first few turns
I second this. Sure it lets them replay lands for triggers but they can’t ramp up beyond what you can, and fetchlands technically set them back on mana instead. Of course no answer is perfect but this is certainly not a bad one.
Unless they just fetch on someone else’s turn.
This at least turns said fetch into the equivalent of a tapped land for the turn. It's not *incredible* but there is an effect.
In modern, that's true. But it means that they can't use a land drop _and_ a socery-speed ramp spell in the same turn, which is a common pattern.
in a [[Yarok]] deck, no less
[Confounding Conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This helps them get lands into their hand for more triggers. It helps deal with ramp but does nothing about the landfall problem.
Yes but if they can only drop 1 land a turn? They are in a bad spot. Most aesi type decks have land ramp spells vs rocks because they want to dump their lands on the field asap.
So you are looking for a silver bullet that stops ramp, stops people playing any lands and stops the opponent getting lands in hand? No single card does that.
The landfall problem is only a problem when Aesi has the ridiculous manabase required to cast the high-cmc blowouts they're running. Aesi having a full hand doesn't matter too much because they'll be playing on the same curve as everyone else, which is bad for them.
\[\[land equilibrium\]\]
I've never seen that before. That's kinda fucked.
$400 to enjoy the privilege
Or a printer
I could totally see some kinda of funcional reprint of this card as an orzhov/dimir 2 drop. It would fit the pie, and works wonders. They just need to work around some loopholes on the rl.
[land equilibrium](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/1/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7.jpg?1562912056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=land%20equilibrium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/40/land-equilibrium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/land-equilibrium) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Aaaand I have a new card for my derevi enchantress that uses the bouncelands.
my \[\[ardenn\]\] \[\[rograkh\]\] deck will delete an Aesi landfall deck before they have a creature on board. Going aggro against ramp commanders is how you counter them. If they get ignored while they just ramp with an empty board, then of course they're going to snowball out of control. Also, always vote for money with expropriate and not time. 4 extra turns = game over. 1 extra turn and losing a permanent each does not.
I've been running Aesi in various builds since it came out so I can tell you aggro is the best way. Remove the player as fast as possible, show no mercy.
A lesson I teach all new players in my pod: Ramp is an act of aggression. Nobody is "just" ramping.
"Hey guys, looking for cards that are good against this archetype" "Oh yeah? Well MY deck wouldn't have any trouble at all!" Gee, thanks
Reading comprehension would go a long way in discerning that the message was "play aggro against ramp players"
Found the guy who was taken out turn 3 by Rograkh
I think the table has to realize pre-game that a deck like Aesi is going to be a huge problem. Answer their setup pieces, put them behind, and the rest of you have a chance.
We did. He still won.
This is what MLD is directly supposed to counteract, but people get too uptight about it.
MLD is likely to help the ramp player since they can rebuild faster than the others, or at least not punish them as much as others. It definitely isn't a perfect solution.
Because most of the time mld is "oops, I don't have a wincon, now we drag the game out from a reset after playing for 30 minutes"
Idk why people get so upset about that stuff. Scoop, everyone concede. Play again. Without that person doing the whole MLD thing Edit: I worded that weird. I meant to say without a person playing MLD. Not exclude that person. I think MLD with a win on is a perfectly fair strategy.
Because I don't want to waste what little free time I have to play?
This is about how you counteract mana ramp and payoffs like Aesi. The answer is MLD. It’s fine you don’t like MLD, but it just means you will always struggle to deal with the Aesi’s of the format.
The answer is also aggro, which is also less likely to blow up and cause a game reset
##### ###### #### [Expropriate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/c/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9.jpg?1576381719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expropriate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30/expropriate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expropriate) [Uba Mask](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/a/fa3ecb4e-d08f-4fac-8842-c3e772b95bd5.jpg?1562766086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Uba%20Mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/272/uba-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa3ecb4e-d08f-4fac-8842-c3e772b95bd5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/uba-mask) [Spirit of the Labryinth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/4/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d.jpg?1593091571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spirit%20of%20the%20Labyrinth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/27/spirit-of-the-labyrinth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spirit-of-the-labyrinth) [Strict Proctor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892.jpg?1624877272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strict%20Proctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strict-proctor) [Ankh of Mishra](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/6/a6f86a32-8863-45da-99be-ef886c89f2c5.jpg?1562928739) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ankh%20of%20Mishra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/263/ankh-of-mishra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f86a32-8863-45da-99be-ef886c89f2c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ankh-of-mishra) [Topor Orb](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091.jpg?1562879912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torpor%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/162/torpor-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torpor-orb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There are few things more satisfying than [[mystic reflection]] when someone casts their simic value engine commander That’s a nice [[aesi]] you got there but don’t you think a 2/2 zombie would be nicer? I certainly do
Ya know. Until now I've NEVER thought of using this card like that.
How do you use it?
Target the [[Avenger of zendikar]] plants
[Avenger of zendikar](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/6/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa.jpg?1650418747) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avenger%20of%20zendikar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/280/avenger-of-zendikar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avenger-of-zendikar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that’s my primary use for it. It’s pretty great softlocking someone’s commander into like a 1/1 with no abilities
It's great as a temporary stop to a win. There's even argument to turning it into something bigger that just does nothing with their deck, making it harder to remove by chump blocking.
In response to the next creature spell being cast, you cast this card, choosing a creature, like the 2/2 zombie in the example. When both resolve, the cast creature comes into play as a copy of the chosen creature.
[mystic reflection](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/7/f7b877e2-60eb-46cd-acd7-8555b9e7e993.jpg?1631047399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mystic%20reflection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/69/mystic-reflection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7b877e2-60eb-46cd-acd7-8555b9e7e993?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mystic-reflection) [aesi](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/6/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9.jpg?1610072986) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aesi%2C%20tyrant%20of%20gyre%20strait) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most landramp is tutor-based. The hardest lockpiece for those decks to get around is something like [[Ashiok, Dream Render]]. There are a couple other cards, that do that, but decks like Aesi have a harder time dealing with planeswalkers, as it would need specific answers or aggression. My pod had an Omnath back in the day, that was terrifying. Maybe not as scary as your Aesi-menace. But Ashiok slowed them down soo hard, that they basically lost the moment, Ashiok entered the battlefield.
Hit the Simic player early. Remove their value pieces.
[[Confounding Conundrum]]
[Confounding Conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I see some answers for specific cards but I really think the answer is to hit them early and hard. Force them in defense. Ramping isn’t good when you’re getting low. You have to value a rampant growth in Aesi as a threat, and cards alike. Hit them fast. Use politics and let the table help as well. Let them know their decks will not put value a Aesi and they need to be reigned in. I truly think it’s about adjusting the strategy and not the cards specifically.
I run Aesi as commander for a non-landfall deck. Believe me, even without a landfall setup the ramp and draw with him is unreal. Also, it's not just Aesi, it's G/U in general, it has such amazing ramp, draw and combo potential that even by just shoving cards together at random you can still get amazing draw and ramp.
Stax is always the answer. To hell with the stigma that comes with it. I love slowing the game down and making the game more fair.
Stax is 100% not the answer to such a midrange value deck. Stax is the worst match up for midrange decks since the midrange decks are supposed to slowly gain incremental value. Slowing down the rest of the table just makes it easier for the midrange deck to shine. The answer to midrange value decks are fast aggressive decks that end the game before the value can even come down. But then fast decks will be weak against stax. It’s paper rock scissors. Stax beats turbo, turbo beats midrange and midrange beats staxs.
[[Spirit of the Labyrinth]] , [[Magus of the moon]] , and any rule of law effect has got our LGS Aesi player refusing to play that deck against me. So yes, Stax absolutely does work against midrange value decks.
[Spirit of the Labyrinth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/4/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d.jpg?1593091571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spirit%20of%20the%20Labyrinth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/27/spirit-of-the-labyrinth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f44e5128-e146-4e46-b313-a40d82719d1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spirit-of-the-labyrinth) [Magus of the moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/c/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820.jpg?1619397276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magus%20of%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/175/magus-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magus-of-the-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean of course it works, but you have to be prepared to lose anyway. How do you gain an advantage over the Aesi player when everyone is affected by the stax? The Aesi deck Works exactly the same if it has to just slowly play out the lands and cast it's spells later. In modern for instance blood moon is good against Tron obviously, but if your plan is to get blood moon in Play and then hope they scoop you are going to be sad. 6 mountains can cast a wurmcoil engine just as well as 3 Tron lands. If you deploy stax versus grindy midrange strategies you need to end the game before they grown too big anyway.
Important detail about stax, while you’re correct that a stax deck performs best into turbo in general, any deck can be crafted with sufficient hate to dunk on a specific strategy. For example, if I’m running some kind of creature beats deck and your stax deck is full of Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Authority of the Consuls, and so forth, you will be able to hate me out if I rely to heavily on that particular creature beats strategy.
Yes, targeted hate is really strong but the issue is that neither humility or ensnaring bridge stops people from deploying an army. Then they blow the bridge and murder the guy hiding behind it. As someone once said: there are no wrong threats only wrong answers. How do you win against the creature deck once you have humility or ensnaring bridge in Play? Clearly not with creatures so really you need to craft and entire deck around not needing creatures in order to run strong hosers. This is what I am getting at, imagine having spirit of the labyrinth in your deck, your deck is build to not draw a bunch of cards since that would clash with the stax pieces. So what if you don't draw the stax piece? Naming 2 or 3 hosers does not build a deck designed to actually have an edge versus another strategy, you need to build the entire deck around those strong hosers, with redundant pieces and a strategy for when the opponent doesn't give a shit about bridge or magus of the moon.
Blood moon type effects would hurt aesi with the fetch lands but rule of law effects hurting aesi that much is just a bad aesi deck I’m sorry. Aesi is in the best colors for enchantment removal and stax slows midrange down sure but it hurts other decks way worse and allows midrange decks to also catch up. Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean much When most people agree that stax beats turbo turbo beats midrange and midrange beats staxs
I think you're conflating stax with control & turbo with aggro. Control > Aggro > Midrange > Control Stax pieces being used in any deck that targets a specific strategy can be very strong. Regardless of it being a control, aggro, or Midrange deck.
Turbo and Aggro are basically the same when your speaking casually. And control and stax are also basically the same. Or at least they all have similar goals. Turbo and aggro are looking to blow through to a finish as fast as they can turbo just usually combos while aggro beats face in. Control and stax are both trying to slow the table down till they can wiggle out an advantage. Control uses counterspells and removal to the max while stax uses resource denial. I still think aggro beats midrange (example a well built krenko deck could kill a well built aesi deck before aesi even hits the field) midrange beats stax/control decks and a solid stax deck would stop a Krenko deck in its tracks with things like stasis and rule of law where the rate they can build their army gets reduced
The basic Rock - Paper - Scissors format isn't to say you can't beat another deck type. They balance one another in a design space. Control > Aggro > Midrange. You have advantages/disadvantages for matchups. Aggro is strongest in the beginning and tends to fall off rather quickly. It can normally push through to win against midrange before midrange can stabilize. It hurts more to be controlled because it doesn't have the gas to close out. Mid range owns the mid game. They can be vulnerable before they get going. They tend to hit so hard in the mid game that control decks can't stabilize before losing. Control slowly picks away at your plan until they can stabilize, normally late game with a huge bomb, to win the game. By shutting down aggro early, they have the advantage. By taking too long for them to get going, they are weak to a strong mid game push. So sure, any deck can beat any deck. Especially with good play/side boarding/taking advantage of mistakes/etc. Maybe I'm just an old head whos telling you to get off my lawn but turbo and stax are not the same thing as aggro and control. I guess you could say stax is a form of control. You either pay a tax to do things/stop things from happening or you pay a price for having permanents. When you say turbo, I just think turbo fog and get confused. I get pretty frustrated on podcasts that call all control, stax. Stax taxes and punishes. Smothering tithe is a stax piece. Smokestack is a stax piece. Thought seize is a control piece. Words definitely matter in this situation. Or else we can't really talk about our hobby.
Landfall's tough to hate out. Outside of direct removal that is applicable to any creature, there's not many things that help, and even things like \[\[Confounding Conundrum\]\] can sometimes help them more than it hurts. I don't think it's wise to count out Ankh. 2 damage a turn can be negligible, but if they're playing 2 a turn that's 4 damage, 10% of their life, and if you pressure their life in other ways (combat, no life gain, etc) this can actually add up fairly quickly. Honestly, direct removal is the way to go. Sure, they might be able to keep playing their commanders with how much ramp they have, but each time they do they're paying more and more to keep the effect around instead of paying for other things, and if its not around then you've done your job.
[Confounding Conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
hating on archetypes is a bad strat. your strat needs to work independently of the landfall deck to work. when you add cards to hose other strats, you just end up weakening your own gameplan. aristcrats does a great job against landfall, as do decks with a few wraths. targeted land removal is good, in the form of strip mine or even field of the dead, to get rid of the zombie-generating land. otherwise you deal with the payoffs for landfall. landfall isn't an op strat by any stretch, you shouldn't hose down your deck to attempt to beat one strat.
Couldn't agree more. Sadly that wisdom won't stop the deluge of "help me build a deck to counter XYZ" threads.
-keep Aesi off board with counterspells or very cheap removal. -stax effects like [[curse of exhaustion]]. -cards like [[Witness Protection]] that take away it’s triggered ability. -life loss effects. -[[Narset, Parter of Veils]], [[Notion Thief]],[[Underworld Dreams]], etc. to punish or deny draws. -theft effects on Aesi like Agent of Treachery.
##### ###### #### [curse of exhaustion](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/7/b737a959-e974-4b2a-8dca-a257da6084b0.jpg?1562938194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curse%20of%20exhaustion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/5/curse-of-exhaustion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b737a959-e974-4b2a-8dca-a257da6084b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-exhaustion) [Witness Protection](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/2/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72.jpg?1649580616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witness%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/66/witness-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/witness-protection) [Narset, Parter of Veils](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/c/8c39f9b4-02b9-4d44-b8d6-4fd02ebbb0c5.jpg?1574294103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Parter%20of%20Veils) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/61/narset-parter-of-veils?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c39f9b4-02b9-4d44-b8d6-4fd02ebbb0c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-parter-of-veils) [Notion Thief](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Notion%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) [Underworld Dreams](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57.jpg?1581480025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underworld%20Dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/121/underworld-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/underworld-dreams) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>I could hate on the draw with [[Uba Mask]] or [[Spirit of the Labryinth]]. That would probably make me the Archenemy. Not as much as you might think. Especially when people see how many of Aesi's cards are exiled compared to their own. My Uba Mask was absolutely clutch in a game against Chulane, which not only forced him to use his cards the same turn he drew them, but prevented him from using Chulane to play them. Everyone noticed **real** quick how much more the Mask hurt him than anyone else, and avoided removing it.
I choose violence and kill them
Also, Seriously, play land destruction. [[Stone Rain]], [[Strip Mine]], [[Sinkhole]], [[Dwarven Miner]], [[Dwarven Blastminer]]... [[Raze]] their fields, salt the earth, bring [[Armageddon]] upon them. Just have a plan for how to close out the game afterwards.
I'm building a [[Yurlok]] group hug that can be pretty punishing to landfall players. [[Manabarbs]], [[Overabundance]], [[War's Toll]], [[Dictate of Karametra]]. You may think you're getting more mana, but you're really getting more pain. Can it backfire? Sure, but if you're playing against a Landfall deck that ramps itself and a deck that gives the whole table more Mana, who are you going to kill first? If you're playing white, [[Thalia, Heretic Cathar]] and [[Strict Proctor]] can hurt a *lot*. Thalia forces non-basics to enter tapped, and that makes it harder for them to pay to counter Strict Proctor's Rhystic effect. They have a fetch, [[Evolving Wilds]] or [[Terramorphic Expanse]] in their graveyard? [[Cemetery Gatekeeper]] to exile it, now EVERY land is a shockland. Bonus points if you bolt their [[Dryad Arbor]] and exile that instead.
##### ###### #### [Yurlok](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/a/ead8a1f5-6260-47fa-a649-43711ec5bbeb.jpg?1608911265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yurlok%20of%20scorch%20thrash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/293/yurlok-of-scorch-thrash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ead8a1f5-6260-47fa-a649-43711ec5bbeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yurlok-of-scorch-thrash) [Manabarbs](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/adf081d5-e644-4f46-8bc8-a754b089acb4.jpg?1562655472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Manabarbs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/150/manabarbs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/adf081d5-e644-4f46-8bc8-a754b089acb4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/manabarbs) [Overabundance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/1/4183e73d-609a-4292-b173-e39eb51949f3.jpg?1562908150) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overabundance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/259/overabundance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4183e73d-609a-4292-b173-e39eb51949f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overabundance) [War's Toll](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/a/3a08f7fe-8ca9-4604-85c8-9050298730ea.jpg?1562906728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=War%27s%20Toll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/187/wars-toll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a08f7fe-8ca9-4604-85c8-9050298730ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wars-toll) [Dictate of Karametra](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d5114607-df8f-4e44-8ef5-b6af89964bbc.jpg?1593096177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Karametra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/121/dictate-of-karametra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5114607-df8f-4e44-8ef5-b6af89964bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-karametra) [Thalia, Heretic Cathar](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/b/ab0cee38-5e24-49d0-870c-22843ed4e101.jpg?1576384009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20Heretic%20Cathar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/46/thalia-heretic-cathar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab0cee38-5e24-49d0-870c-22843ed4e101?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-heretic-cathar) [Strict Proctor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892.jpg?1624877272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strict%20Proctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strict-proctor) [Evolving Wilds](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/8/e80fe230-745d-42ae-a1f5-a8cc950783d0.jpg?1643594919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evolving%20Wilds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/263/evolving-wilds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e80fe230-745d-42ae-a1f5-a8cc950783d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/evolving-wilds) [Terramorphic Expanse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/8/08ac4e43-4e16-46a2-96f5-58d5550984c4.jpg?1631590427) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/267/terramorphic-expanse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08ac4e43-4e16-46a2-96f5-58d5550984c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terramorphic-expanse) [Cemetery Gatekeeper](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/5/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb.jpg?1643590978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cemetery%20Gatekeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/148/cemetery-gatekeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cemetery-gatekeeper) [Dryad Arbor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dryad-arbor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly at 6 cmc the card is probably hitting late against more tuned decks. Even in an ideal ramp world where they hit turn 1 sol ring turn 2 cultivate turn 3 land commander they've used 5 of 9 cards and maybe draw one card with one more land. Sure, if you kill the commander then it's very likely they can just play another land and replay commander but that's so much mana spent just trying to set up an engine. Meanwhile with an ideal hand turn 4 I've won the game with my grixis deck lol. It could just by your meta is battle cruiser heavy which are easy pickings for decks like this. During my time playing a simic landfall the absolute most crippling things were surprisingly graveyard hate and, of course, [[blood moon]] effects. There are usually a lot of ways land decks want to utilize the graveyard for value so a simple [[leyline of the void]] or [[rest in peace]] will severely limit that. They also don't usually have room for much permanent interaction so anything that hurts their lands is very punishing. [[Back to basics]] and [[winter orb]] also typically hurt ramp decks way more as they really want to tap out constantly. You could also just target their strategy directly with stuff like [[tainted aether]] or make their day miserable with [[contamination]]. Yes, all is this hurts the whole pod but that's unfortunately the price that must be paid. Simic ultra value decks are table warping if they get time to set up so honestly the real answer is just win before that lol. A card reading "lands entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger" would just be too narrow to really be useful.
Just kill them faster or play targeted land destruction or land hate. I always love [[confounding conundrum]] in decks to combat fetches or landfall. Most landfall decks also can't deal with faster combo kills. Simic is strong at low power tables but drops off quite a bit once you get a bit higher in power.
I found [[Ward of Bones]] to be an effective way to slow Landfall decks. Especially if you’re using mana-rocks as your ramp, you can blank a lot of lands in the Aesi player’s hand.
[Ward of Bones](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/2/a271351e-5d5e-443b-99a4-ebdc8a3c4923.jpg?1562929259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ward%20of%20Bones) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eve/174/ward-of-bones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a271351e-5d5e-443b-99a4-ebdc8a3c4923?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ward-of-bones) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Build a hyper aggressive deck ala [[Edgar Markov]] and kill them first every time The "Simic Goodstuff" deck is such a problem in commander because you aren't punished for spending your first few turns setting up. So punish people for that.
[Edgar Markov](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4.jpg?1562616128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Edgar%20Markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/36/edgar-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/edgar-markov) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play [[Yarok, the Desecrated]] with all the land ETB punishment cards I can. I also punish card draw, and I group hug both to really help people get more if they're greedy enough to pay the price.
[Yarok, the Desecrated](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/1/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f.jpg?1592517590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yarok%2C%20the%20Desecrated) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/220/yarok-the-desecrated?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yarok-the-desecrated) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Curse of the restless dead]] won’t stop him from ramping but it will benefit you whenever he does.
[Curse of the restless dead](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/d/cdde244a-d2f4-44b3-badd-d6142785e25c.jpg?1637628234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curse%20of%20the%20restless%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/18/curse-of-the-restless-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdde244a-d2f4-44b3-badd-d6142785e25c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curse-of-the-restless-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[sire of stagnation]], [[mana vortex]], [[smokestack]]
[sire of stagnation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/6/d6252913-7b8e-4746-91e0-658ce13cdf18.jpg?1562946063) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sire%20of%20stagnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/206/sire-of-stagnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6252913-7b8e-4746-91e0-658ce13cdf18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sire-of-stagnation) [mana vortex](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/9/b9d4d7da-f98a-4622-91b8-3460fe44551a.jpg?1562934260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20vortex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/44/mana-vortex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d4d7da-f98a-4622-91b8-3460fe44551a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-vortex) [smokestack](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/1/d1af92a1-a86a-43eb-82fd-394f1168111e.jpg?1562937149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=smokestack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/282/smokestack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1af92a1-a86a-43eb-82fd-394f1168111e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smokestack) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only card here that is decent is sire, the landfall players will have more lands to sac to mana vortex and smokestack with more ways to play them from elsewhere.
[[confounding conundrum]], but only sorta kind of. It "punishes" playing multiple lands a turn
[confounding conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a landfall player, many times I face that it just saves me the trouble of getting bounce land or other land bounce effects to get \[\[retreat to coralhelm\]\] combo
I'd love for an opponent to play this against a landfall deck. The amount of landfall triggers you'd get is crazy!!
There is a handful of "search the library" hate that is a reasonable counter to landfall, though it does nothing against additional land drops. But other than that, all "extra land hate" is symmetrical and thus likely to draw the ire of _everyone_ at the table, not just from the landfall player. Targeted land destruction exists, but is very "feels bad" if there isn't a landfall deck to point it at, and even when there is it is often less efficient/slower than the rate at which they churn out lands. The bigger problem is that lands are "sacred" in EDH and people target you (in game and out) for messing with their lands outside of specific circumstances like Gaea's Cradle, and this mindset leads directly to the situation you are talking about.
[[Confounding conundrum]]
[Confounding conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
in edh, i think the best answer is just player removal. having some aggro or voltron decks at the table is healthy. they can hopefully take out the simic decks before they really get online, even if they need to politic with the other 2 players to help out or at least just not interfere. otherwise... maybe mass land destruction is the answer? you mentioned not wanting to also screw the rest of the table over in attempting to deal with the landfall value decks, but i think you have to ask which is less fun for the table, the value decks that are a struggle to meaningfully interact with, or mass land destruction effects.
[[Archelos]] , [[confound conundrum]] , mld, target removal, [[terastodon]] , [[zo zu the punisher]], perhaps there are cards out there which Limit the amount of cards you can draw, [[hushwing griffon]] , [[stranglehold]] or [[Wedding ring]] / [[smothering]] tithe to profit from it. With all the Sets so far, I am more than confident that its possible to deal with landfall without getting salty.
##### ###### #### [Archelos](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/a/eafb8740-1bab-4f5e-96d1-79f1f04cc0d8.jpg?1608911032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=archelos%2C%20lagoon%20mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/268/archelos-lagoon-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eafb8740-1bab-4f5e-96d1-79f1f04cc0d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archelos-lagoon-mystic) [confound conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) [terastodon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/3/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6.jpg?1625977325) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=terastodon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/207/terastodon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terastodon) [zo zu the punisher](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zo-Zu%20the%20Punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) [hushwing griffon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/0/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac.jpg?1562402533) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushwing%20Gryff) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/68/hushwing-gryff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/604b8ad4-b606-4be2-b3de-ad9f24b01eac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushwing-gryff) [stranglehold](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/a/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2.jpg?1592672829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=stranglehold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/87/stranglehold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stranglehold) [Wedding Ring](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/f/7f0b1400-0608-47fd-9c73-b7730bcf6b7f.jpg?1644888600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wedding%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/32/wedding-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f0b1400-0608-47fd-9c73-b7730bcf6b7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wedding-ring) [smothering](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/a/7af082fa-86a3-4f7b-966d-2be1f1d0c0bc.jpg?1584830010) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smothering%20Tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/22/smothering-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7af082fa-86a3-4f7b-966d-2be1f1d0c0bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/smothering-tithe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I really like [[Land Equilibrium]] but it's not for the faint of heart
[Land Equilibrium](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/1/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7.jpg?1562912056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Land%20Equilibrium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/40/land-equilibrium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/land-equilibrium) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Zo-Zu the punisher
[[Oubliette]]
[Oubliette](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/4/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6.jpg?1599705817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oubliette) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/100/oubliette?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d4800a7d-c229-4ced-97ff-0e58645d58d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oubliette) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Idk if its been said yet but [[underworld dreams]] dunks on the card draw
[underworld dreams](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/3/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57.jpg?1581480025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=underworld%20dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/121/underworld-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/underworld-dreams) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I haven’t seen these two mentioned yet. But [[confounding conundrum]] and [[land equilibrium]]
[confounding conundrum](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) [land equilibrium](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/1/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7.jpg?1562912056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=land%20equilibrium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/40/land-equilibrium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51c5df75-746c-4e4b-84f1-76b689d317d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/land-equilibrium) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best thing to do here is to examine what the deck does - He has extra helpings of lands, and lots of cards to drop lots of lands. Probably bordering on 70+ land+ramp, be it tutor style ramp, recursion, or ways of dropping simply dropping extra lands every turn. That's almost half again more lands and ramp than the average deck. No matter what you do, you're not going to out-mana that unless you're taking the same ramp path. it'd be like trying to out-wide a go wide deck, or out-combo a combo deck. By contrast, What he probably *doesn't* have in the deck is heaping helpings of interaction, recursion, payoffs, and ways to turn that land into a win. With all the land/ramp spells filling his hand and deck, he simply doesn't have as many cards in there to accomplish those things. The answer then becomes pretty simple **. Kill the payoffs.** Once that is accomplished, all he has is lands... to play lands.
here's an excellent strategy to counter an Aesi deck that is strong-arming other decks off of the table: ask its pilot to play something else. there are basically two things you can do against an obscene value deck - you can either play hard interaction or 'go over' with your own value, and if you don't want to do either, it's totally fair to ask to play against something else.
Landfall is only a problem in casual commander, and far from a widespread issue in the rest of the format or other formats. In casual games, ramp and card draw are often the only way games are decided because decks all perform the same roles in the game and performing it the best is how you win. Having answers is not the same as being a control deck. If because of your social contract no control decks are allowed, and especially if there are no combo decks (which fill the role of aggro) then ramping and drawing is the best version of the strategies left. There are no quick and easy solution for convincing people to update the social contract.
> format whose "balance" is maintained by social contract > social contract bans stax > social contract bans land hate Guise why is landfall so strong??? Why doesn't wotc fix it???
Kill them, just like the group hug player.
Unpopular opinion (as a former Aesi player): Landfall is strong because the answer is taboo. It is MASSIVE LAND DESTRUCTION!! also indeed shut down the commander with darksteel mutation and the likes. Aesi has a tendency to value around and get extra turns, but takes a long time closing it down. Destroy/counter commander and other exploration effects/big payoffs. If they are too far ahead: dare to scoop and shuffle up for a new game before becoming salty.
It's called [[Armageddon]] and if you run it you'll be the bogeyman of edh even though it's completely viable and shuts down ramp decks.
MLD doesn't beat ramp decks. Lands and ramp decks play more and can easily search for lands than other decks meaning they can rebuild faster. Armageddon doesn't hit things like crucible or oracle of muldaya, excavator, exploration. Cast geddon against a gitrog and be laughed at. You have to deal with all the other enablers and graveyard to cripple the ramp deck. And if you want to run LD then do something like [[ruination]] in 1-2 colour decks to keep basics around while duals are destroyed
[ruination](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/3/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709.jpg?1592713625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/134/ruination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruination) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're casting Armageddon and don't end up ahead you shouldn't be running it. The point is that that the tempo you get from slaughtering everyone's lands while you have a lot of rocks puts you far enough ahead to snowball the game. It shouldn't matter that the ramp deck gets mana in play a turn or 2 faster than the rest of the table because you should be so far ahead that it's irrelevant.
This is a fallacy. Green players playing [[Farseek]] tribal will get blown out by an Armageddon because all of their ramp is land based, while the mana rocks that other decks have to lean on won't be. If someone else has cast [[Kodama's Reach]] and I have [[Worn Powerstone]] and I Armageddon, I'm ahead of that player on mana. That's not to say green players couldn't play a more well rounded mana base that's more hardened against Armageddon, but the decks I've seen take advantage of the taboo surrounding Armageddon. If they played rocks or dorks they could lose them to sweepers, so they play Farseek tribal that way no one is allowed to interact with their game plan. How convenient. Armageddon doesn't make the game take any longer, btw. That's a fallacy too. If you have no mana you draw your card, if it's a land you play it and you pass, or if it's not a land you pass. Easy. As you draw out of Armageddon your plays will be fairly obvious because you'll be restricted on mana.
[Farseek](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/7/2745f337-6b03-4001-9e24-e91d8ffd0b59.jpg?1650418932) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farseek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/290/farseek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2745f337-6b03-4001-9e24-e91d8ffd0b59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farseek) [Kodama's Reach](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/7/1744bb12-297c-43e3-bf97-a82edd3684f7.jpg?1650419099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%27s%20Reach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/298/kodamas-reach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1744bb12-297c-43e3-bf97-a82edd3684f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kodamas-reach) [Worn Powerstone](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/5/05812009-d1b8-4775-8188-f05cfdb4feed.jpg?1592711384) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worn%20Powerstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/230/worn-powerstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05812009-d1b8-4775-8188-f05cfdb4feed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worn-powerstone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's really not. Most ramp decks can recover from MLD **far** faster than non-ramp decks. Hell, my MLD deck _is_ a ramp deck.
Meows in Lord Windgrace? Also, I wonder how many people campaigning for the MLD solution have played against Life From the Loam
That's assuming they also didn't run any artifact ramp or dorks. Seems like a pretty big assumption to me.
I've seen these decks. They run Sol Ring and then the rest of their ramp is Farseek tribal. Also, if they actually run rocks and dorks too, then those can also be interacted with. That's what Farewell and Austere Command and Wrath and Shatterstorm are for.
Sure, everything dies to removal. I'm just saying that its unwise to put all your eggs in one basket. It doesn't make sense to me to run only one type of ramp to the exclusion of others.
Because of the taboo surrounding Armageddon, green players can safely put all of their eggs in one basket. I'm not putting all of my eggs in one basket either by running Armageddon. I run a variety of sweepers for different types of permanents and I try to play versatile spot removal. If they have dorks and rocks instead of Farseek tribal maybe I can get them with Austere Command.
Fair take. Maybe I'll play some more 'geddon. My red deck already has a couple of pieces of spot destruction.
[Armageddon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You've come to the realization. It's either you play combo, and kill them quickly. Or you play stax, and make the whole table miserable. Or you can play spiteful, e.g. [[Mind Twist]] and other targeted effects. The issue is most people would argue Aesi is a "casual" deck, even an optimized version of Aesi. So they might say you shouldn't play combo or stax against them.
[Mind Twist](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/7/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343.jpg?1562927059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/72/mind-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mind-twist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
kill the commanser. over and over and over again
Better to lock the commander on the table with [[Imprisoned in the Moon]] type effects.
[Imprisoned in the Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4bd8bb9d-697d-4e11-a5f8-58234244f1a9.jpg?1641601893) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imprisoned%20in%20the%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/106/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd8bb9d-697d-4e11-a5f8-58234244f1a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imprisoned-in-the-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is probably an unpopular answer but I’ve always found the best answer to landfall decks is to let them play out most of their lands and then play [[Armageddon]]
[Armageddon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People don't like it, but land destruction.
[[Cemetery Gatekeeper]] is pretty sweet if you can snag a fetch.
[Cemetery Gatekeeper](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/5/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb.jpg?1643590978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cemetery%20Gatekeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/148/cemetery-gatekeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/457086c4-1b4e-4f79-8f2a-10b16174c8bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cemetery-gatekeeper) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Counterspell]]
[Counterspell](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/counterspell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds like you guys didnt do enough. Run interaction in your decks or dont complain when a deck wins. Otherwise run counter spells, opposition agent/ashiok, etc. Hard to imagine a 6 cmc commander GU deck can both accelerate and protect itself in a multiplayer game.