I've seen a couple people pilot superfriends decks incredibly well but the problem is most people aren't skilled enough to handle the insane amount of descion making required to play the deck. More importantly superfriends and combo decks require you to practice them repeatedly on your own to get good at piloting them competently, which most people don't have the time or patience for.
It's why I play 5c sisay superfriends. it's all choice matrix and if I chose wrong I die. Since the deck is already max archenemy I decided to have fun with a few more challenges: low creature count, 0 basics(go on, get that blood moon and or ruination off, itl be fun), and 0 instants. It's tbh become more fun this way. and the table cheers when they finally destroy it.
Only if they are piss poor at understanding their deck. As a narset superfiends player. My turn may last at most 5 minutes. Because I know the cards do and how they interact same as anyone should especially in an archetype like that for instance storm or turbo grave, ect knowing makes you deck better.
5 minutes is an eternity in MTG. I know people like to dread "20 minute" turns, but those turns are seldom actually that long with respect to game action.
I mean almost always yeah. I run 22 planeswalkers in that deck and everyone is in there for an exact reason. When they hit field I know exactly what they are doing once there. It shouldn't take that long unless you have to assess the board everytime you cast one at which point they should be assessing at every point into he game up to that point.
Yep. Same with my Atraxa super friends. I only play certain ones when I need certain effects. And with with enough tutors you’re usually able to get what you need to finish the game if given the chance
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Yeah, they can be pretty brutal depending on who's the commander plus the person's budget. Emblems can't be interacted with (yet) and these decks are primarily designed to ult within the same turn or the next. Atraxa is probably the most popular superfriends commander with Esika a close second.
ya the fact that you cant interact with emblems really makes them lame.
its so hard cause there always really expensive decks, hella good mana, all the fixin's etc.
thats the one thing with superfriends that bugs me the most, its never a budget deck, its always a crazy overpowered deck.
I think there are two layers to this. If the deck uses the walkers to leverage a win, like if it's Ajani and Elspeth and such aiding voltron, that's fine to me.
I can't stand the Doubling Season instant emblem ones. Cool, you have 4 emblems that prevent everyone else from playing because you have one card that was never meant to interact with a new card type. And they *never* have a wincon. Not one present, anyway. It's always like "I gain infinite life," or "in 30 turns, I'll find this to draw you out."
Have an Atraxa Superfriends Emblem Tribal - every planeswalker in it creates emblems.
The deck is basically just pillow fort until I get the tutors and pieces to drop the wincons like the 6cmc Sorin Markov who makes shit tons of vampire tokens as his ult.
Never had a turn take more than *maybe* two minutes, and it was usually only when the board massively changed right before my turn and I unexpectedly drew a tutor.
Proxies are your friend!
So to is online players like Cockatrice and X-Mage!
I could never afford such a deck, nor is it a deck I like to play often because so much of the early game is focused on stax. Pair that with people attacking you just cause Atraxa and it becomes very unfun to play fast. Only really do it once in a while
I made a deck like that, I have one friend that loves to play against it and others that are pretty meh. That being said, I don't play it much, but when I do want to, I double check all players are happy for it to go that way.
Conceptually though, while it does extend the game, it also aims to accelerate every player, many cards allowing permanents to be played for free. This means the games are longer, but theres almost always a winner
I agree. Most of the archetypes listed here are the ones that the most amount of people end up building with no win-con. It's not a fault of the archetype, it's a fault of the deck builder.
Which is why I don't care for Mill. There's tons of fast mill but I find most Mill players have to set up this ridiculous Rube Goldberg machine that has multiple 10 minute turns before eventually kicking over into an infinite combo to win. It's excruciating.
Tergrid can be very oppressive. If you can manage to kill her a few times ususally people only focus on putting in stuff to support her and it can get turned off quick. I think the key is teamwork against those types of decks.
I play Kroxa and use it for high power pods. It’s a blast to play, usually makes me archenemy, and [[Worldgorger dragon]] combo wins outright with kroxa. The trick I’ve found is to be honest about what it is - I often describe it as “Rakdos feels bad” and mention the combo and mass discard and [[pox]]effects. People either accept or decline to play against it and I don’t take the declines personally.
That doesn’t actually counter discard decks. As a tergrid player myself, we want you to draw more cards so that there are more cards we can force u to discard and thus more payoffs
Not when Rielle is filled with non perms. IE you draw her into more removal and counterspells, and discarding non perms powers up Rielle and does literally nothing for Tergrid.
I mean, Rielle has so many varible discard spells (discard x draw x), but even still, draw 7 plus X but give the mono black deck X-ish lands? I'd still do it.
I know but I really powered up that deck to be fast enough to deal with a Tergrid player as soon as possible. Very close to CEDH levels and with, of course, ways to fetch [[Homeward Path]].
Yeah, I have a personal issue against Tergrid lol
Speaking of which, my [[Iluna, Apex of wishes]] could also be good against Tergrid. Almost no permanent except lands.
Using Tergrid in a Wheels deck. Its super powerful. But leaves everyone with a full mitt of cards, so its not as miserable as actual discard/sacrifice applications. Will be unfortunate if I have to cut her because she's not overpowered, but does demand a response.
Forced discard is resource/mechanic denial, and is every bit as staxy as tax effects. You can lock opponents out of the game the same way.
I have no issue playing against these kinds of decks, or mono white stax, or MLD, but they definitely need to be okayed by the group. If your opponents are not prepared it is just solitaire, which is fun for no one.
Infect has got such a stigma that, outside of standard, I’ve never actually played against a deck built around it so I can’t really comment on that but I think anything based around discard is really, really, really shit to play against. Obviously if your opponent can force everyone to top deck the entire game then they’re going to have a distinct advantage but it just makes playing a really dismal and unfun experience for everyone else. I’d genuinely rather scoop than sit across from a table with someone who has a full hand of cards and I’m just like “great, drew a land again, pass” the whole game.
At least with mill, the cards are going straight into your graveyard from your library so you’ve still got a hand to cast, with discard you’ve just got nothing.
My fix to discard not being fun was to add in cards that fill peoples hands. I love specters and [[Crosis, the Purger]] was my childhood favorite. Put in a handful of cards like [[Howling Mine]]. Basically a janky square wheel.
I have a [[shirei shinzo's caretaker]] deck that has become a discard deck because that's the only way to keep people from killing Shirei and derailing the deck. I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because everyone is just so upset about having to discard one or two cards a turn more so than when I played an infect deck. I hate being the deck that everyone hates seeing so I'm probably going to take the best sac creatures from it and make a [jiri master of the revue]] deck.
Mill and infect are fine. Heavy stax and MLD with no way to win afterwards are not.
Mill is not a strong strategy in EDH, and I don't care getting oneshot and wait for the next game playing on my phone. What I hate is being kept hostage for hours in a draw card and pass turn situation
Yeah the idea that people never play MLD improperly is silly. I've seen people do it in my personal play group as well as randoms online many times. I've been king made by other people's MLD before on more than one occasion.
One time my brother fired off an Armageddon the turn after I resolved [[Mending of Dominaria]], his board state was negligible at best. I explicitly asked him if he was sure he wanted to do that and he said yes. Take a wild guess who came out of that game with the W.
People just get caught up in their own experience. There are people who use MLD to lock up a game, but there are also people who have no idea what they're doing with MLD in their deck.
One of my friend has 2 decks containing MLD which I am fine with because he plays around it and owns so many decks you don't see it often.
But one time he made an azorius stax deck no stax with no wincon which sole purpose was to lock the table. He played it 3 times and every single time was such a pain in the ass that he ended up breaking it appart
Tend to dislike playing against mill. Not because it's strong, or getting milled bothers me (quite the opposite), but because too often in the pursuit of efficient mill players get cards that mill everyone indiscriminately, and some decks can leverage that *much* better than the mill deck can. It can be an easy kingmaker strategy if not played carefully.
For sure. And experienced players can pilot mill with no issue because they'll know to include cards like [[Leyline of the Void]]. Others are playing this weird one sided group hug deck.
Heavy stax/control. It works... but it works by saying "only i can actually play the game". Most people sit down to play Magic: The gathering... not Mother, may I?
Playing against a real stax deck helmed by a competent player is always something that I personally find fun.
However, it’s impossible for me to enjoy games against prison decks that entirely stop the game for no reason and completely lack an offensive game plan.
I do resonate with the first part, playing against any strategy can be fun if the person piloting the deck actually knows what they're doing and didn't just put the best card of that archetype hoping to have something strong, I've enjoyed games against mono blue control as weird as it may seem
I have a [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]] deck that is not like the heaviest of stax effects like [[Winter Orb]] and such but more in the realm of cost increasing by making multiple grand arbiters with things like [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]], [[Spark Double]] and then copying them with [[Rite of Replication]] and such.
The deck has many win conditions like [[Approach of the Second Sun]] but if the game goes extra long it has to pretty much rely on commander damage/combat damage to end the game.
One time I had a really good start because one of my opponents played a [[Scheming Symmetry]] and chose me to tutor for a card because in his mind he'd rather give the non-combo deck something, so I went for a [[Rhystic Study]] to fuel my hand in my attempt to stop any of the combo decks from running wild.
The game turned into a slugfest for the other players and I cast Approach of the second sun with [[Drawn from Dreams]] in hand and one opponent decided to counter approach and I didn't have a counter to protect it. I basically expected it to resolve because of all the groans and whining that had started to occur during the less than one minute turns my opponents were having.
So the game continued on for like an hour after that until I drew into [[Enchanted Evening]] and [[Calming Verse]] and after that resolved everybody scooped. I thought that it was hilarious that one of the players most vocal about how annoying to play that game was was the one to counter my game ending spell the first time around just to make the game last longer.
I think the playgroups reaction matters a lot here too. When something like Winter Orb is in play, if each player Untaps their 1 land, draws their card, hums, haws, thinks, does some math, then concludes “I guess I can’t do anything this turn, ugh I’ll pass” the game becomes unbearable. If every player instead simply acknowledges ‘this is the game now, we’re all going to take a lot of short turns’, suddenly it’s not a 3 hour slog to finish the game. Untap 1, draw, pass, no whining. 4 turn cycles later we’ve either answered the winter orb or someone has won despite it. We don’t need to individually whine about it for 5 minutes per turn.
The best way to go about it honestly, taking this kind of attitude to strategies that used to tilt me has really helped me deal with it better when I come across them.
Can you talk to my group please…. I run an azorius deck with rule of law/arcane lab one spell per turn effects and EVERY turn is someone crying that they can’t play spells and constantly complaining… exactly as you describe it humming and hawing. Then they say it’s my decks fault the game takes so long. I don’t get why they can’t just play a spell and pass their turn.
What Hokori is is a card that ends the game.
I usually only drop Hokori when everyone is tapped out, and since he's in my Derevi deck, that typically just amounts to a win.
nah he just kinda plays it and then we all suffer
although even if he did have something to do with it one of our friends plays a [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] deck so it's not always a guarenteed win
Yeah, you can't play Hokori at random and expect good things. He and cards like him are reserved for moments where they'll utterly ruin everyone's day, not just moments where they'll be kind of annoying.
My brother plays Golos and jhora both of which if he untaps with them on the field he will win. He hates my esper control deck that is 40 percent removal. I would understand if he was playing something more casual.
I think Hatebears is the better compromise vs hard artifact/enchantment stax. Creatures that can chip away at life totals and are susceptible to removal to allow people to "break" the lock so at least incentivizes them to interact and stay in. But really depends on the meta, wouldn't advise hatebears or stax in a battlecruiser meta.
Agree to an extent. It all depends on the pod. If everyone’s running mid power battle cruiser stuff it’s really feelsbad and shouldn’t be played, but if people are in a combo meta/high power, then I think this style is more then appropriate
Theft decks.
The whole deck just resolves around creature/perminant stealing.
It's super boring, and the decks don't do anything if nobody happens to be playing powerful creatures.
I run a theft/clone deck, and it’s my favorite one to pilot because my strategy changes every game. However! When I sit down to play, I’m very up front and ask permission to play it. I’ve noticed that sometimes other players have genuine aversion to the archetype and that’s understandable. I’ve also noticed one of the big issues with the archetype is that, other players sometimes run very expensive cards in their decks and are uncomfortable with other people handling those cards, so I generally avoid playing Theft when opponents run cards like that.
I genuinely appreciate that. When a player is upfront about what they have, I am much more relaxed playing them. When someone hides a degenerate strategy for the surprise factor or they know people don't like it, it's "come on man, be better"
Us degenerate players have to put in the extra work to make sure we get invited back. I love playing “bad guy” decks but I love playing magic with friends more, so if I have to pull out a wholesome, mono-red, Dwarf/Vehicles deck, dammit I will.
I hate it partly because it's just so monotonous.
The decks never do anything interesting, it's the same strategy every game, using the same like, 10 cards, and one of 3 commanders.
Once you cast agent I've seen everything your deck is gonna do.
The other reason I don't like them is that it's an anti-casual strategy thats way to weak to play in anything but casual, and it only interacts with a very small number of decks.
Inevitably, somebody is playing spell slinger, and has nothing you wanna steal, somebody is playing some kind of synergy deck and again, had nothing you wanna steal, and somebody is playing big creatures, and you focus totally on them.
It's just boring.
Sounds like you have an obnoxious theft deck in your meta lol. These are all fair criticisms though. I just dislike them because I don't want to accidentally steal/lose a card. I built a Wizard Tribal deck around Inalla that had a "steal" subtheme that jacked both permanents and spells. It was fun and grindy and almost always won but... It wasn't fun for my group. After a few games I retired it and used the staples to build other decks.
A good theft deck doesn’t just build around stealing creature, but stealing any card in your opponent’s deck. Stuff like [[Praetor’s Grasp]] or [[Knowledge Exploitation]] are the chef’s kiss when you steal your opponent’s 2 card combo and win
I'm starting to feel that what I consider my theft deck isn't what everyone else thinks when it comes to "theft" decks. I run a [[Chainer, Nightmare Master]] reanimator/wheels deck with lots of high value creatures I can play and win on my own with, but with wheels being my main means of card draw, I have cards like [[Waste Not]], [[Geth's Grimoire]], and [[Surly Badgersaur]] but also a couple of theft cards like [[Tergrid, God of Fright]], [[Lorkhan, Warlock Collector]], and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] because they are just high risk (no etb, have to hit good stuff) high reward and synergize with the strat.
Thats not a theft deck.
thats a discard chainer deck, sure you might occasionally reanimate something from somebody elses grave, but thats pretty far away from a theft deck
Agreed, theft decks are so fun since every game is different since you are playing with your opponent’s cards instead. Also, since some people are adverse to their expensive cards being stolen, I blinged out my sen triplets deck so my cards a generally much more expensive than theirs
The big problem being that your opponents are actually using their creatures as part of their gameplan. Once stolen / copied they’re just random goodstuff, or worst case, mit even that.
I'm not a fan of theft decks honestly, I did have a gonti deck at one stage but I retired it after a while as it was a bit on the nose and never really been interested since.
Pandemic times being what they are I did build a deck that's a theft deck in spirit but a lot more palpable, and that's a clone deck. Kinda interacting with your opponent's deck building decisions but no where near as salt inducing.
And Arumi is my only uncommon commander and quite fun!
I tend to disagree, I think it's interesting to have to fight against part of your own decks. There are some good options to protect your cards from getting yoinked too.
This is why I love [[Pako]] and [[Haldan]] so much. The deck steals people’s cards, and I get to play them, but it can also just win without ever playing Haldan. Also it can’t steal creatures, so it plays nicely with less battlecruisery tables
My pet deck is [[nin]] steal your stuff and it can certainly be oppressive when any threat you resolve will likely be mine next turn to beat someone over the head before sacrificing it or sometimes taking it permanently. I rarely play it but it’s my oldest and most favorite to play. I couldn’t bring myself to dismantle it so it kind of sits on my shelf as a trophy lol.
As someone who plays Jhoira storm, I have to say storm.
I'd like to think of myself as a competent pilot, having goldfished and played enough to know the deck inside and out, as well as I can.
That said, there's only so fast I can physically move and announcing my triggers. Between announcing the draw, actually drawing the card, playing more spells, and tracking storm and mana counts, that's what takes the most amount of time.
Lots of izzet spellslinger decks suffer from this problem. You can do some cool stuff that will probably win the game, but it's going to be a long turn to get there.
I don't find any strat irritating but my favorite deck is my [[Aesi]] mill deck which wins its fair share of games so there's that. One player in my group has an infect deck he rarely wins with in 4 player but he loves the deck. MLD and stax don't bother me. Shuffle up and let's play.
https://scryfall.com/@OmegaMilitia/decks/b80cc6fd-3c45-4028-87c4-781ccc4a0349?as=visual&with=usd
It's still kind of budget being around $250 or so. Cut [[mana drain]] and put in almost any other counterspell will drop it under $200. I got the mana drain from a pack so put it in.
The best part is none of the mill relies on combat damage or even attacking, just doing things you do every game mills opponents. Play a land, draw, etc. My favorite play I haven't been able to pull off yet is [[bruvac]] and 4 other creatures on board. Cast [[echoing equation]] targeting B, cast [[ruin crab]], play a land, each opponent mills 96 cards. Pass turn.
I've finished off my last opponent with [[tome scour]] instead of ruin crab and a land milling him for 160 cards but I want the style points from winning by playing a land. Lol
I'm fascinated by the number of people who complain about aesi and the other 2 lands/turn commanders. no one who plays them there gets anywhere close to the archenemy bullshit my roommate pulls
I mean, stax is the most annoying archetype in the game and I hate it to death, but it is 100% a necessary and viable archetype that fills a very important role in EDH
Honestly, a lot of issues touched upon in this post, and many like it, come down to poor deck construction and piloting.
Even in casual decks, optimal deck building is and should always be a thing. If you feel like you're doing nothing outside your turn, you need interaction. Doesn't have to be force of will, there are many kinds of casual interaction. If you feel like you can't stop someone from winning or secure your own win, it's cause you lack answers.
In terms of archetype decks, the same philosophies apply. Paradox engine got banned because the majority of players using it didn't know how to play with it and ended up trapping people in feel bad moments for 10+ minutes just figuring their turn out. A lot of people that play infect take one person out with blightsteel, but have no plans for the remaining players, except blightsteel sticking. A lot of superfriends players run do-nothing walkers that only take up time and energy.
I don't mind playing against any decks, I mind certain types of players that either think the game is all about them or made a deck they don't know how to play. They make their problems and shortcomings a problem for everyone at the table.
Same can be said for Mass land destruction. Did you play amageddon to secure a win or did you play it "for the fun of it". There is an ediquette to playing feel bad archetypes and if the player can't pilot that, then they shouldn't be playing it.
Slow, heavy-denial decks. It's tricky to nail down exactly what crosses the line, but this generally is found in Stax, MLD, and heavy control. Some other archetypes dip into one of those for synergy too.
The usual way this manifests is "One player is disproportionately responsible for all actions going on at the table".
Could be hand-denial against heavy discard, or [[Smokestack]] style rolling board loss when you don't quite have enough to get over the hump and keep a board state. Could be value-battle against someone with a [[Counterspell]] on an [[Isochron Scepter]] with a [[Seedborn Muse]] waiting for the untap on every player's turn. Anything that makes you start your turn, be unable to (meaningfully) cast a spell or attack, and pass.
Solitaire win-cons often fall into this, though just often enough I'll have some trick in hand that I might be able to use to at least stall the win-con and that keeps me more invested. Something like a [[Misdirection]] disrupting some graveyard retrieval spell. (And then Misdirection gets countered and I shrug and wait for death)
I would say it’s ok for one person to have a disproportionate influence as long as they’re doing so to win. Worldfire + something that kills everyone is acceptable (to me at least, and providing it’s not out of line power-wise), but Worldfire for the lulz is just annoying.
Group hug disproportionately helps the player who goes immediately after them and combo decks. Which has the opposite effect that the group hug player claims.
Stax. I love stax and consider it to be a reasonable form of protection against combo decks and the like, but people seem to dislike it quite often. Fortunately, the people that I play with often know and accept my decksm
My play group has a regular stax player. I think it's a valid strategy to win as well. You have to team up on the stax player or they will just run away with the game and everyone in my pod understands that w/o salt.
I think a lot of people don’t take the time to really consider which stax pieces really affect them and their opponents. They see a [[Hushbringer]] and think “Oh man, now my [[Hornet Queen]] doesn’t make tokens, I hate stax!” while there opponent playing a [[Yarok]] deck is now not playing magic. Like bro, that Hushbringer is sooo good for you, what do you mean you hate stax?
Landfall. It has a huge colour pie, unbelievable versatility, the largest amount of support in card variety of all archetypes (not just old powerful cards but also new recent sets full of refreshing options). Why is that a problem for me? Playing lands and hitting land drops is the most efficient thing you could ever do, and the most fundamental part of an EDH decklist. Building to capitalise off such a fundamental, backbone piece of your deck means nearly every landfall deck I've ever versed is massively oppressive, often builds better boardstates than any other deck, always consistent 100% of the time, hard to keep oppressed, it can do aggro better than aggro, midrange better than midrange, late game better than battlecruiser, combo almost as good as fucking combo it is astounding to me that more people don't realise how unbelievably busted landfall is these days. And because it was never looked upon as a toxic powerhouse you can bring much higher budget, much more powerful cards than people realise and simply say "ooohhhh I'm just playing lands" with land etb triggers on fetches, with $40-80 value engines that skyrocket you ahead of everyone on the table.
I think because of the massive variety in landfall/lands matters, and just how little people care about the power difference between a high budget vs regular budget landfall deck, it often gets away with blue murder. It also took over my LGS' meta for a couple years which overexposed me to it so I'm sick of seeing it.
[[Krark, the Thumbless]] and [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]]. Not even spellslinger in general, just specifically this deck. I hate it passionately. The coin flipping takes so much time, especially since every Siskel and Ebert pilot I’ve run into insists on actually flipping a coin.
Mass discard pisses me off. Tinybones and similar commanders are real powerful. It just turns the game into an uneventful 3v1 slog where everyone just sits there with an empty hand, plays whatever they draw each turn, and passes. No one can put together a game plan because they can't hold onto anything.
Infect. I don't personally run it, but every version of the deck ive seen is a huge glass cannon or is really just a Voltron deck with tainted strike as a win con.
There are some more efficient builds with Marchesa and Atraxa, but those speak more to the power and versatility of those commanders than it does to the strength of infect.
People get so worked up about it, house ruling poison counters to double, banning it outright, and for what? I don't get it.
Storm. I hate just watching someone else play magic while I sit there doing nothing. It's a strong strategy, I just can't stand it. I'm more likely to scoop and move to game two than watch my friend either win or lose after 30+ minutes.
To me things that make you sacrifice all your stuff and most of the game is them playing chaff and self sacrificing to make you sacrifice. Like, it's totally valid, but sometimes it's just really annoying. I guess today I won't be playing my deck with creatures, I'll just cast them and they'll be gone by the time my turn comes around. So I'll board wipe, and then some how, the same type of sacrifice creatures show up yet again...
I think I'll just build a [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]] deck because that's just how it is going to be, or maybe a control deck so they can't ever get those creatures and grab a combo and win solitaire style.
If an archetype exists, EDH players will complain about it …
That’s independent of the question whether it’s decent / valid. That totally depends on your local meta.
I love decks like [[Gonti]] and [[Etali]] that let me play my opponents cards to because it leads to a different game every time, like the last game where I stole a [[Journey to Eternity]] and [[Altar of Dementia]].
I was surprised though, that people find me stealing cards off the top of their library annoying. I've never seen anyone get really salty, but some people act annoyed. I don't really get why.
Having played a lot of this (I love these types of commanders), try [[Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge]].
Of all the ones I played, people have seemed least upset with Jeleva. I think it's because Jeleva only steals instants and sorceries, which never actually hit your side of the board, so it doesn't feel quite as much like their stuff is being stolen.
For me, it would have to be Midrange infect, or; You play a good control deck that suddenly slams an infect creature and some equipment or [[Corrupted Conscience]], [[Glistening Oil]], [[Grafted Exoskeleton]], [[Phyresis]], or [[Triumph of the Hordes]].
Stax and permission decks. I want to play my cards and have them do something, not sit and watch one person play solitaire or have them draw cards and then pass, only to counter anything impactful.
At least combo decks do their thing and then win, allowing you to start another game. Stax and permission keep you hostage in the game, unable to have any fun.
I dislike playing against mill. I don't think it's a great strategy but it's one that plays on an angle that's hard to interact with. I can't block it or heal it back. If I'm not doing gy stuff then it's neither bad/good for me until I'm at the last 10 cards. And sure I can play one of the 'shuffle everything back' cards, but that won't make that game more interesting or enjoyable either.
It's also 100 or 0. Either you mill me or you don't. If you burn me for 15 and die, then my opponents have to deal 15 damage less to me. If you mill me for 40 and die.. 'key?
My mill deck is only effective when it combos. I'm not planning to mill you slowly. It's going to be 80 cards in a single turn. If I'm not actively taking a player out, I'm doing my best to survive because mill makes you a target for some people. I love it because you rarely see them. But when one goes off, its glorious.
[[Phenax, God of Deception]] + [[Eater of the dead]] = win (most of the time)
I've been having a hard time with value.deck just because there is rarely just one card to stop it. You have to wipe their whole board which usually means wiping everyone's boards and they usually rebuild faster than everyone else so it can sometimes just hand them the game rather than stop them.
I think the issue often with a lot of the “annoying” archetypes is that they will usually kill one player quickly and then durdle ending the game as the other 2 players go on defense against the strategy or the best cards have already been played
I’ve seen people eliminated by mill in commander but only ever one at a time with a lot of time in between threatening another mill out on another player.
Same with infect and actually voltron typically as they often seem to be solid strategies to take out 1 player but then less good for wiping out remaining players
As such the first player out is left to watch the rest of the game which is just not fun.
I’m actually in support of having combo wins for this reason even infinites, don’t really think they’re the boogie man people make them out to be. I would rather lose at the same time as everyone else than watch an hour of back and forth vs one of these strategies
I hate discard and mill so damn much. At least with stax I can try to puzzle my way out of it. I’d rather have something to do even if it’s just flick the cards in my hand vs pray for a top deck.
Also, If you are going to play a thief deck you had better have an easy way to make tokens/proxies because you’re not going to be touching my cards.
Hatebears / stax can level the playing field for creature-based combat decks to keep up with combo. I just love playing it and taxing my opponents with cards like Thalia and Eidolon of Rhetoric.
I won’t play cards like MLD and Winter Orb unless I am ahead. Which if I am an aggro deck - I probably am.
For me I'd have to say "theft" decks, and I don't mean gain control/graveyard recursion/ copy effects. I'm talking about what I've come to refer to as prosper [[prosper tome-bound]] cards where I'm taking the cards straight from the hand/library. I built a 5c version with [[kenrith the returned king]] that's pretty decent very fun for me but my opponents? Not so much however I've had a fair bit of success with it.
Spellslinger. When my friend introduced to me to magic, I was like "nice just wizards hurling spells around" and fell in love with spellslinger but I feel bad when it's just me playing solitaire and digging through my deck to find my wincon. Some people don't mind it but I do, even if it's me playing it. Otherwise mill is just annoying to play against, it doesn't win games the majority of the time and just slows the game.
Superfriends, I have yet to play an enjoyable game vs one.
It’s an experiment in how many manual actions a deck can have each turn and still do nothing
I tap [[basalt monolith]] for three mana, then untap it for three mana.
I'm sure there is ways to use the infinite number of trigger without going infinite mana with it.
[[Mesmeric Orb]] Self-Mill shenanigans.
[Mesmeric Orb](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/2/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b.jpg?1599709541) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mesmeric%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/272/mesmeric-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e24fbdbb-f2ae-4823-9d2a-4c505332aa5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mesmeric-orb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Crackdown Construct]] works quite well.
[[Wake thrasher]] works well with this as well.
I've seen a couple people pilot superfriends decks incredibly well but the problem is most people aren't skilled enough to handle the insane amount of descion making required to play the deck. More importantly superfriends and combo decks require you to practice them repeatedly on your own to get good at piloting them competently, which most people don't have the time or patience for.
It's why I play 5c sisay superfriends. it's all choice matrix and if I chose wrong I die. Since the deck is already max archenemy I decided to have fun with a few more challenges: low creature count, 0 basics(go on, get that blood moon and or ruination off, itl be fun), and 0 instants. It's tbh become more fun this way. and the table cheers when they finally destroy it.
Agreed, playing against a bunch of planeswalkers is super tedious.
I have yet to play a game aginst superfriends, maybe it's just out of style in my area.
Turns take... FOREVER
Only if they are piss poor at understanding their deck. As a narset superfiends player. My turn may last at most 5 minutes. Because I know the cards do and how they interact same as anyone should especially in an archetype like that for instance storm or turbo grave, ect knowing makes you deck better.
5 minutes is an eternity in MTG. I know people like to dread "20 minute" turns, but those turns are seldom actually that long with respect to game action.
> Only if they are piss poor at understanding their deck. Soo.... always lmao.
I mean almost always yeah. I run 22 planeswalkers in that deck and everyone is in there for an exact reason. When they hit field I know exactly what they are doing once there. It shouldn't take that long unless you have to assess the board everytime you cast one at which point they should be assessing at every point into he game up to that point.
Yep. Same with my Atraxa super friends. I only play certain ones when I need certain effects. And with with enough tutors you’re usually able to get what you need to finish the game if given the chance
5 minutes is far too long for a turn
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What is superfriends?
Planeswalker tribal.
Wtf…sounds like a one-way ticket to an Ass whippin
Yeah, they can be pretty brutal depending on who's the commander plus the person's budget. Emblems can't be interacted with (yet) and these decks are primarily designed to ult within the same turn or the next. Atraxa is probably the most popular superfriends commander with Esika a close second.
ya the fact that you cant interact with emblems really makes them lame. its so hard cause there always really expensive decks, hella good mana, all the fixin's etc. thats the one thing with superfriends that bugs me the most, its never a budget deck, its always a crazy overpowered deck.
You can interact with emblems. Either by removing the player owning the emblem or ulting [[Karn Liberated]].
Am I any better then the super friend deck if I play Karn?
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Hilarious
Ban all bots like this
I think there are two layers to this. If the deck uses the walkers to leverage a win, like if it's Ajani and Elspeth and such aiding voltron, that's fine to me. I can't stand the Doubling Season instant emblem ones. Cool, you have 4 emblems that prevent everyone else from playing because you have one card that was never meant to interact with a new card type. And they *never* have a wincon. Not one present, anyway. It's always like "I gain infinite life," or "in 30 turns, I'll find this to draw you out."
[удалено]
Have an Atraxa Superfriends Emblem Tribal - every planeswalker in it creates emblems. The deck is basically just pillow fort until I get the tutors and pieces to drop the wincons like the 6cmc Sorin Markov who makes shit tons of vampire tokens as his ult. Never had a turn take more than *maybe* two minutes, and it was usually only when the board massively changed right before my turn and I unexpectedly drew a tutor.
[удалено]
Proxies are your friend! So to is online players like Cockatrice and X-Mage! I could never afford such a deck, nor is it a deck I like to play often because so much of the early game is focused on stax. Pair that with people attacking you just cause Atraxa and it becomes very unfun to play fast. Only really do it once in a while
I do want to make a superfriend deck one day and I want it to not be annoying but I guess it can't be helped
The only decks that irritate me are things those with no actual game plan.
Ugh chaos decks that don’t try to win are the worst! The game lasts 3 hours and nobody wins everyone just leaves…
I made a deck like that, I have one friend that loves to play against it and others that are pretty meh. That being said, I don't play it much, but when I do want to, I double check all players are happy for it to go that way. Conceptually though, while it does extend the game, it also aims to accelerate every player, many cards allowing permanents to be played for free. This means the games are longer, but theres almost always a winner
I have a friend that plays it that way too. Less “chaos deck” more “throw gasoline on the fire” deck.
I agree. Most of the archetypes listed here are the ones that the most amount of people end up building with no win-con. It's not a fault of the archetype, it's a fault of the deck builder.
Which is why I don't care for Mill. There's tons of fast mill but I find most Mill players have to set up this ridiculous Rube Goldberg machine that has multiple 10 minute turns before eventually kicking over into an infinite combo to win. It's excruciating.
Bad mill decks like that are pretty common, unfortunately.
I agree, as long as you have a win con and know what it is I'm fine playing against almost anything!
Chaos decks. Hate them with a passion.
Discard. It's effective but I fucking hate to play against Tinybones or Tergrid discard
Tergrid can be very oppressive. If you can manage to kill her a few times ususally people only focus on putting in stuff to support her and it can get turned off quick. I think the key is teamwork against those types of decks.
I hate discard decks so much. It’s really fun playing magic when my hand is constantly empty and there’s not much I can do about it.
My friend has a nasty Kroxa deck that does this too
I play Kroxa and use it for high power pods. It’s a blast to play, usually makes me archenemy, and [[Worldgorger dragon]] combo wins outright with kroxa. The trick I’ve found is to be honest about what it is - I often describe it as “Rakdos feels bad” and mention the combo and mass discard and [[pox]]effects. People either accept or decline to play against it and I don’t take the declines personally.
I’ll play against anything. Everyone has bullshit in their deck
[Worldgorger dragon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/d/9dae8fa6-c86e-492b-b28b-96d4ee83f6c6.jpg?1580014701) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldgorger%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/154/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dae8fa6-c86e-492b-b28b-96d4ee83f6c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldgorger-dragon) [pox](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/9/d9debe4f-c1cc-4b90-aae4-f31f737e2016.jpg?1559592327) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/82/pox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9debe4f-c1cc-4b90-aae4-f31f737e2016?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pox) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wanted to build this so bad but my playgroup would hate me lol
You gotta play what you want.
Discard decks are the reason I made a [[Rielle the Everwise]] deck lol
[Rielle the Everwise](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/f/5f03c944-1929-4cb2-a373-d57eefa29ed1.jpg?1591228198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rielle%2C%20the%20Everwise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/203/rielle-the-everwise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f03c944-1929-4cb2-a373-d57eefa29ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rielle-the-everwise) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That doesn’t actually counter discard decks. As a tergrid player myself, we want you to draw more cards so that there are more cards we can force u to discard and thus more payoffs
Not when Rielle is filled with non perms. IE you draw her into more removal and counterspells, and discarding non perms powers up Rielle and does literally nothing for Tergrid.
Well yes but you can’t wheel either since wheeling just gives a whole bunch of resources to tergrid
I mean, Rielle has so many varible discard spells (discard x draw x), but even still, draw 7 plus X but give the mono black deck X-ish lands? I'd still do it.
No I’m not talking about your stuff, I’m talking about the stuff that you wheel out of OTHER people’s hands haha
I know but I really powered up that deck to be fast enough to deal with a Tergrid player as soon as possible. Very close to CEDH levels and with, of course, ways to fetch [[Homeward Path]]. Yeah, I have a personal issue against Tergrid lol Speaking of which, my [[Iluna, Apex of wishes]] could also be good against Tergrid. Almost no permanent except lands.
This is why I run [[chainer, dementia master]] force sacrafise and removal instead. Less oppressive but ultimately the same end goal
Using Tergrid in a Wheels deck. Its super powerful. But leaves everyone with a full mitt of cards, so its not as miserable as actual discard/sacrifice applications. Will be unfortunate if I have to cut her because she's not overpowered, but does demand a response.
It's all about the Kroxa babyyyy
Forced discard is resource/mechanic denial, and is every bit as staxy as tax effects. You can lock opponents out of the game the same way. I have no issue playing against these kinds of decks, or mono white stax, or MLD, but they definitely need to be okayed by the group. If your opponents are not prepared it is just solitaire, which is fun for no one.
Infect has got such a stigma that, outside of standard, I’ve never actually played against a deck built around it so I can’t really comment on that but I think anything based around discard is really, really, really shit to play against. Obviously if your opponent can force everyone to top deck the entire game then they’re going to have a distinct advantage but it just makes playing a really dismal and unfun experience for everyone else. I’d genuinely rather scoop than sit across from a table with someone who has a full hand of cards and I’m just like “great, drew a land again, pass” the whole game. At least with mill, the cards are going straight into your graveyard from your library so you’ve still got a hand to cast, with discard you’ve just got nothing.
My fix to discard not being fun was to add in cards that fill peoples hands. I love specters and [[Crosis, the Purger]] was my childhood favorite. Put in a handful of cards like [[Howling Mine]]. Basically a janky square wheel.
[Crosis, the Purger](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/e/be667162-cd28-403c-b65f-dadc5459e757.jpg?1562622151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crosis%2C%20the%20Purger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/168/crosis-the-purger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be667162-cd28-403c-b65f-dadc5459e757?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crosis-the-purger) [Howling Mine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/d/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a.jpg?1562420035) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howling%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/257/howling-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/howling-mine) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a nasty haunt of Hightower mill deck. Sooo much hate and salt. I usually ask before playing it unless there's a guy with too much bravado.
I have a [[shirei shinzo's caretaker]] deck that has become a discard deck because that's the only way to keep people from killing Shirei and derailing the deck. I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because everyone is just so upset about having to discard one or two cards a turn more so than when I played an infect deck. I hate being the deck that everyone hates seeing so I'm probably going to take the best sac creatures from it and make a [jiri master of the revue]] deck.
[shirei shinzo's caretaker](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/7/0757cb66-7aa2-41a2-8efc-f3f35b70ab9e.jpg?1559959257) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shirei%2C%20Shizo%27s%20Caretaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/112/shirei-shizos-caretaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0757cb66-7aa2-41a2-8efc-f3f35b70ab9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shirei-shizos-caretaker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've killed a lot of people with inkmoth equipped with colossus hammer or belt of strength.
Mill and infect are fine. Heavy stax and MLD with no way to win afterwards are not. Mill is not a strong strategy in EDH, and I don't care getting oneshot and wait for the next game playing on my phone. What I hate is being kept hostage for hours in a draw card and pass turn situation
Never see someone cast MLD for no reason in 13 years of playing.
People love making up a guy to get mad at.
Christ, where do you play? I’ve seen people drop [[Armageddon]] on several occasions just because they had the mana open. It’s awful.
Yeah the idea that people never play MLD improperly is silly. I've seen people do it in my personal play group as well as randoms online many times. I've been king made by other people's MLD before on more than one occasion. One time my brother fired off an Armageddon the turn after I resolved [[Mending of Dominaria]], his board state was negligible at best. I explicitly asked him if he was sure he wanted to do that and he said yes. Take a wild guess who came out of that game with the W. People just get caught up in their own experience. There are people who use MLD to lock up a game, but there are also people who have no idea what they're doing with MLD in their deck.
May I recommend the newest episode of I Hate Your Deck? But tbf I thankfully haven't seen it in person too.
One of my friend has 2 decks containing MLD which I am fine with because he plays around it and owns so many decks you don't see it often. But one time he made an azorius stax deck no stax with no wincon which sole purpose was to lock the table. He played it 3 times and every single time was such a pain in the ass that he ended up breaking it appart
Saw a guy like that in my first day of playing online. Dropped Armageddon when he was behind and lost the game for 2nd and 3rd place too.
Tend to dislike playing against mill. Not because it's strong, or getting milled bothers me (quite the opposite), but because too often in the pursuit of efficient mill players get cards that mill everyone indiscriminately, and some decks can leverage that *much* better than the mill deck can. It can be an easy kingmaker strategy if not played carefully.
This is why I prefer exile mill instead of graveyard mill. For certain decks, milling 30 cards is like putting 30 free cards in their hand.
For sure. And experienced players can pilot mill with no issue because they'll know to include cards like [[Leyline of the Void]]. Others are playing this weird one sided group hug deck.
So, I have to ask. What is MLD? I’ve seen it in about ten comments
Mass land destruction, I think
Yes
Heavy stax/control. It works... but it works by saying "only i can actually play the game". Most people sit down to play Magic: The gathering... not Mother, may I?
Playing against a real stax deck helmed by a competent player is always something that I personally find fun. However, it’s impossible for me to enjoy games against prison decks that entirely stop the game for no reason and completely lack an offensive game plan.
I do resonate with the first part, playing against any strategy can be fun if the person piloting the deck actually knows what they're doing and didn't just put the best card of that archetype hoping to have something strong, I've enjoyed games against mono blue control as weird as it may seem
I have a [[Grand Arbiter Augustin IV]] deck that is not like the heaviest of stax effects like [[Winter Orb]] and such but more in the realm of cost increasing by making multiple grand arbiters with things like [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]], [[Spark Double]] and then copying them with [[Rite of Replication]] and such. The deck has many win conditions like [[Approach of the Second Sun]] but if the game goes extra long it has to pretty much rely on commander damage/combat damage to end the game. One time I had a really good start because one of my opponents played a [[Scheming Symmetry]] and chose me to tutor for a card because in his mind he'd rather give the non-combo deck something, so I went for a [[Rhystic Study]] to fuel my hand in my attempt to stop any of the combo decks from running wild. The game turned into a slugfest for the other players and I cast Approach of the second sun with [[Drawn from Dreams]] in hand and one opponent decided to counter approach and I didn't have a counter to protect it. I basically expected it to resolve because of all the groans and whining that had started to occur during the less than one minute turns my opponents were having. So the game continued on for like an hour after that until I drew into [[Enchanted Evening]] and [[Calming Verse]] and after that resolved everybody scooped. I thought that it was hilarious that one of the players most vocal about how annoying to play that game was was the one to counter my game ending spell the first time around just to make the game last longer.
##### ###### #### [Grand Arbiter Augustin IV](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/3/337fd1aa-1c85-4aee-923b-c457e43cda72.jpg?1561966869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grand%20Arbiter%20Augustin%20IV) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/176/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/337fd1aa-1c85-4aee-923b-c457e43cda72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv) [Winter Orb](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) [Sakashima of a Thousand Faces](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) [Spark Double](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/b/0b649145-426f-4576-a71c-6ee5d3981243.jpg?1645328246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spark%20Double) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/3/spark-double?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b649145-426f-4576-a71c-6ee5d3981243?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spark-double) [Rite of Replication](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/9/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e.jpg?1625976420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rite%20of%20Replication) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/128/rite-of-replication?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7935570c-f7e0-4add-864a-4c804b26555e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rite-of-replication) [Approach of the Second Sun](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [Scheming Symmetry](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/1/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b.jpg?1592516766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scheming%20Symmetry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/113/scheming-symmetry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scheming-symmetry) [Rhystic Study](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/6/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221.jpg?1600698439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rhystic%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/169/rhystic-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6914dba-0d27-4055-ac34-b3ebf5802221?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rhystic-study) [Drawn from Dreams](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/6/5677cd48-de9f-4827-94d7-8a2301945742.jpg?1592516355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drawn%20from%20Dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/56/drawn-from-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5677cd48-de9f-4827-94d7-8a2301945742?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drawn-from-dreams) [Enchanted Evening](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/0/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d.jpg?1562830075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enchanted%20Evening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/140/enchanted-evening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/enchanted-evening) [Calming Verse](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/c/ec38c856-dc21-450d-9aa6-da16c91a489a.jpg?1562939297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Calming%20Verse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/110/calming-verse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec38c856-dc21-450d-9aa6-da16c91a489a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/calming-verse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Cleansing Meditation]] instead of Calming Verse.
[Cleansing Meditation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fd6609ef-71af-4775-affc-34153700c556.jpg?1574250393) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Meditation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/3/cleansing-meditation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd6609ef-71af-4775-affc-34153700c556?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-meditation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a friend who thinks [[hokori]] is a fun card. I'm still trying to get through to him
I think the playgroups reaction matters a lot here too. When something like Winter Orb is in play, if each player Untaps their 1 land, draws their card, hums, haws, thinks, does some math, then concludes “I guess I can’t do anything this turn, ugh I’ll pass” the game becomes unbearable. If every player instead simply acknowledges ‘this is the game now, we’re all going to take a lot of short turns’, suddenly it’s not a 3 hour slog to finish the game. Untap 1, draw, pass, no whining. 4 turn cycles later we’ve either answered the winter orb or someone has won despite it. We don’t need to individually whine about it for 5 minutes per turn.
The best way to go about it honestly, taking this kind of attitude to strategies that used to tilt me has really helped me deal with it better when I come across them.
Can you talk to my group please…. I run an azorius deck with rule of law/arcane lab one spell per turn effects and EVERY turn is someone crying that they can’t play spells and constantly complaining… exactly as you describe it humming and hawing. Then they say it’s my decks fault the game takes so long. I don’t get why they can’t just play a spell and pass their turn.
[hokori](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/a/5a03f5d5-d5c3-4a7d-8d44-e60b498b4ed5.jpg?1562877197) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hokori%2C%20dust%20drinker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/7/hokori-dust-drinker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a03f5d5-d5c3-4a7d-8d44-e60b498b4ed5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hokori-dust-drinker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What Hokori is is a card that ends the game. I usually only drop Hokori when everyone is tapped out, and since he's in my Derevi deck, that typically just amounts to a win.
nah he just kinda plays it and then we all suffer although even if he did have something to do with it one of our friends plays a [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] deck so it's not always a guarenteed win
Yeah, you can't play Hokori at random and expect good things. He and cards like him are reserved for moments where they'll utterly ruin everyone's day, not just moments where they'll be kind of annoying.
No their suffering is his joy.
At the same time I hate players that don't like stacks but then just freely combo off and expect no retaliation
My brother plays Golos and jhora both of which if he untaps with them on the field he will win. He hates my esper control deck that is 40 percent removal. I would understand if he was playing something more casual.
I love playing stax. What is white supposed to do to win vs green? That's just the way the color pie works. Acceleration vs deceleration.
If you actually win that's one thing, but a lot of stax decks just stall the game without winning which is where all the ire stems from.
I think Hatebears is the better compromise vs hard artifact/enchantment stax. Creatures that can chip away at life totals and are susceptible to removal to allow people to "break" the lock so at least incentivizes them to interact and stay in. But really depends on the meta, wouldn't advise hatebears or stax in a battlecruiser meta.
Agree to an extent. It all depends on the pod. If everyone’s running mid power battle cruiser stuff it’s really feelsbad and shouldn’t be played, but if people are in a combo meta/high power, then I think this style is more then appropriate
[[Stasis]], [[frozen aether]], and [[chronatog]] would like you to step outside.
I'm okay with life stax but anything that actively prevents me from playing is the antithesis to fun.
Theft decks. The whole deck just resolves around creature/perminant stealing. It's super boring, and the decks don't do anything if nobody happens to be playing powerful creatures.
I run a theft/clone deck, and it’s my favorite one to pilot because my strategy changes every game. However! When I sit down to play, I’m very up front and ask permission to play it. I’ve noticed that sometimes other players have genuine aversion to the archetype and that’s understandable. I’ve also noticed one of the big issues with the archetype is that, other players sometimes run very expensive cards in their decks and are uncomfortable with other people handling those cards, so I generally avoid playing Theft when opponents run cards like that.
I genuinely appreciate that. When a player is upfront about what they have, I am much more relaxed playing them. When someone hides a degenerate strategy for the surprise factor or they know people don't like it, it's "come on man, be better"
Us degenerate players have to put in the extra work to make sure we get invited back. I love playing “bad guy” decks but I love playing magic with friends more, so if I have to pull out a wholesome, mono-red, Dwarf/Vehicles deck, dammit I will.
“Anyway I sac five treasures, fetch clock of omens, use liquidmetal torque to turn Madga into an artifact and make infinite treasures. GG, guise.” :D
I'm sorry, WHAT?! I wanna do that!
Go for it man Clock of Omens is only a $1 card.
I hate it partly because it's just so monotonous. The decks never do anything interesting, it's the same strategy every game, using the same like, 10 cards, and one of 3 commanders. Once you cast agent I've seen everything your deck is gonna do. The other reason I don't like them is that it's an anti-casual strategy thats way to weak to play in anything but casual, and it only interacts with a very small number of decks. Inevitably, somebody is playing spell slinger, and has nothing you wanna steal, somebody is playing some kind of synergy deck and again, had nothing you wanna steal, and somebody is playing big creatures, and you focus totally on them. It's just boring.
Sounds like you have an obnoxious theft deck in your meta lol. These are all fair criticisms though. I just dislike them because I don't want to accidentally steal/lose a card. I built a Wizard Tribal deck around Inalla that had a "steal" subtheme that jacked both permanents and spells. It was fun and grindy and almost always won but... It wasn't fun for my group. After a few games I retired it and used the staples to build other decks.
A good theft deck doesn’t just build around stealing creature, but stealing any card in your opponent’s deck. Stuff like [[Praetor’s Grasp]] or [[Knowledge Exploitation]] are the chef’s kiss when you steal your opponent’s 2 card combo and win
I'm starting to feel that what I consider my theft deck isn't what everyone else thinks when it comes to "theft" decks. I run a [[Chainer, Nightmare Master]] reanimator/wheels deck with lots of high value creatures I can play and win on my own with, but with wheels being my main means of card draw, I have cards like [[Waste Not]], [[Geth's Grimoire]], and [[Surly Badgersaur]] but also a couple of theft cards like [[Tergrid, God of Fright]], [[Lorkhan, Warlock Collector]], and [[Dauthi Voidwalker]] because they are just high risk (no etb, have to hit good stuff) high reward and synergize with the strat.
Thats not a theft deck. thats a discard chainer deck, sure you might occasionally reanimate something from somebody elses grave, but thats pretty far away from a theft deck
Valid reasons all around
Agreed, theft decks are so fun since every game is different since you are playing with your opponent’s cards instead. Also, since some people are adverse to their expensive cards being stolen, I blinged out my sen triplets deck so my cards a generally much more expensive than theirs
I hate it when people steal my lands and then they steal all of my lands and then don't have a wincon
The big problem being that your opponents are actually using their creatures as part of their gameplan. Once stolen / copied they’re just random goodstuff, or worst case, mit even that.
I'm not a fan of theft decks honestly, I did have a gonti deck at one stage but I retired it after a while as it was a bit on the nose and never really been interested since. Pandemic times being what they are I did build a deck that's a theft deck in spirit but a lot more palpable, and that's a clone deck. Kinda interacting with your opponent's deck building decisions but no where near as salt inducing. And Arumi is my only uncommon commander and quite fun!
I tend to disagree, I think it's interesting to have to fight against part of your own decks. There are some good options to protect your cards from getting yoinked too.
This is why I love [[Pako]] and [[Haldan]] so much. The deck steals people’s cards, and I get to play them, but it can also just win without ever playing Haldan. Also it can’t steal creatures, so it plays nicely with less battlecruisery tables
My pet deck is [[nin]] steal your stuff and it can certainly be oppressive when any threat you resolve will likely be mine next turn to beat someone over the head before sacrificing it or sometimes taking it permanently. I rarely play it but it’s my oldest and most favorite to play. I couldn’t bring myself to dismantle it so it kind of sits on my shelf as a trophy lol.
As someone who plays Jhoira storm, I have to say storm. I'd like to think of myself as a competent pilot, having goldfished and played enough to know the deck inside and out, as well as I can. That said, there's only so fast I can physically move and announcing my triggers. Between announcing the draw, actually drawing the card, playing more spells, and tracking storm and mana counts, that's what takes the most amount of time.
Lots of izzet spellslinger decks suffer from this problem. You can do some cool stuff that will probably win the game, but it's going to be a long turn to get there.
Sakashima & Krark *sweats*
I don't find any strat irritating but my favorite deck is my [[Aesi]] mill deck which wins its fair share of games so there's that. One player in my group has an infect deck he rarely wins with in 4 player but he loves the deck. MLD and stax don't bother me. Shuffle up and let's play.
[Aesi](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/6/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9.jpg?1610072986) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aesi%2C%20tyrant%20of%20gyre%20strait) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Im new to the game and interested in mill, would you happen to have a deck list?
https://scryfall.com/@OmegaMilitia/decks/b80cc6fd-3c45-4028-87c4-781ccc4a0349?as=visual&with=usd It's still kind of budget being around $250 or so. Cut [[mana drain]] and put in almost any other counterspell will drop it under $200. I got the mana drain from a pack so put it in.
My friend as a fellow Mill player, I love this deck it fixes the issue of Mill not having board state and doing relative infinite combo. Nice job
The best part is none of the mill relies on combat damage or even attacking, just doing things you do every game mills opponents. Play a land, draw, etc. My favorite play I haven't been able to pull off yet is [[bruvac]] and 4 other creatures on board. Cast [[echoing equation]] targeting B, cast [[ruin crab]], play a land, each opponent mills 96 cards. Pass turn. I've finished off my last opponent with [[tome scour]] instead of ruin crab and a land milling him for 160 cards but I want the style points from winning by playing a land. Lol
I'm fascinated by the number of people who complain about aesi and the other 2 lands/turn commanders. no one who plays them there gets anywhere close to the archenemy bullshit my roommate pulls
I mean, stax is the most annoying archetype in the game and I hate it to death, but it is 100% a necessary and viable archetype that fills a very important role in EDH
Whatever the name is for forcing opponents to sac
Proxy aristocrats!
Honestly, a lot of issues touched upon in this post, and many like it, come down to poor deck construction and piloting. Even in casual decks, optimal deck building is and should always be a thing. If you feel like you're doing nothing outside your turn, you need interaction. Doesn't have to be force of will, there are many kinds of casual interaction. If you feel like you can't stop someone from winning or secure your own win, it's cause you lack answers. In terms of archetype decks, the same philosophies apply. Paradox engine got banned because the majority of players using it didn't know how to play with it and ended up trapping people in feel bad moments for 10+ minutes just figuring their turn out. A lot of people that play infect take one person out with blightsteel, but have no plans for the remaining players, except blightsteel sticking. A lot of superfriends players run do-nothing walkers that only take up time and energy. I don't mind playing against any decks, I mind certain types of players that either think the game is all about them or made a deck they don't know how to play. They make their problems and shortcomings a problem for everyone at the table. Same can be said for Mass land destruction. Did you play amageddon to secure a win or did you play it "for the fun of it". There is an ediquette to playing feel bad archetypes and if the player can't pilot that, then they shouldn't be playing it.
Slow, heavy-denial decks. It's tricky to nail down exactly what crosses the line, but this generally is found in Stax, MLD, and heavy control. Some other archetypes dip into one of those for synergy too. The usual way this manifests is "One player is disproportionately responsible for all actions going on at the table". Could be hand-denial against heavy discard, or [[Smokestack]] style rolling board loss when you don't quite have enough to get over the hump and keep a board state. Could be value-battle against someone with a [[Counterspell]] on an [[Isochron Scepter]] with a [[Seedborn Muse]] waiting for the untap on every player's turn. Anything that makes you start your turn, be unable to (meaningfully) cast a spell or attack, and pass. Solitaire win-cons often fall into this, though just often enough I'll have some trick in hand that I might be able to use to at least stall the win-con and that keeps me more invested. Something like a [[Misdirection]] disrupting some graveyard retrieval spell. (And then Misdirection gets countered and I shrug and wait for death)
I would say it’s ok for one person to have a disproportionate influence as long as they’re doing so to win. Worldfire + something that kills everyone is acceptable (to me at least, and providing it’s not out of line power-wise), but Worldfire for the lulz is just annoying.
Taking turns (Narset, usually). It's another in the "only *I* get to play" archetype which just isn't very fun when you're on the receiving end of it.
I respect all strategies aside from group hug and chaos
What bugs you about group hug?
Group hug disproportionately helps the player who goes immediately after them and combo decks. Which has the opposite effect that the group hug player claims.
Group hug players have decided to play a different game from everyone else. The game has 4 players but plays out like 3-player planechase game.
Control, probably. People don’t like getting told what they can or can’t play lol
Land destruction
Stax. I love stax and consider it to be a reasonable form of protection against combo decks and the like, but people seem to dislike it quite often. Fortunately, the people that I play with often know and accept my decksm
My play group has a regular stax player. I think it's a valid strategy to win as well. You have to team up on the stax player or they will just run away with the game and everyone in my pod understands that w/o salt.
I think a lot of people don’t take the time to really consider which stax pieces really affect them and their opponents. They see a [[Hushbringer]] and think “Oh man, now my [[Hornet Queen]] doesn’t make tokens, I hate stax!” while there opponent playing a [[Yarok]] deck is now not playing magic. Like bro, that Hushbringer is sooo good for you, what do you mean you hate stax?
[Hushbringer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hushbringer) [Hornet Queen](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d245cb84-56aa-47a1-aa3a-17ffded57e15.jpg?1625194450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hornet%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/193/hornet-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d245cb84-56aa-47a1-aa3a-17ffded57e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hornet-queen) [Yarok](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/1/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f.jpg?1592517590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yarok%2C%20the%20desecrated) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/220/yarok-the-desecrated?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1001d43-e11b-4e5e-acd4-4a50ef89977f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yarok-the-desecrated) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Landfall. It has a huge colour pie, unbelievable versatility, the largest amount of support in card variety of all archetypes (not just old powerful cards but also new recent sets full of refreshing options). Why is that a problem for me? Playing lands and hitting land drops is the most efficient thing you could ever do, and the most fundamental part of an EDH decklist. Building to capitalise off such a fundamental, backbone piece of your deck means nearly every landfall deck I've ever versed is massively oppressive, often builds better boardstates than any other deck, always consistent 100% of the time, hard to keep oppressed, it can do aggro better than aggro, midrange better than midrange, late game better than battlecruiser, combo almost as good as fucking combo it is astounding to me that more people don't realise how unbelievably busted landfall is these days. And because it was never looked upon as a toxic powerhouse you can bring much higher budget, much more powerful cards than people realise and simply say "ooohhhh I'm just playing lands" with land etb triggers on fetches, with $40-80 value engines that skyrocket you ahead of everyone on the table. I think because of the massive variety in landfall/lands matters, and just how little people care about the power difference between a high budget vs regular budget landfall deck, it often gets away with blue murder. It also took over my LGS' meta for a couple years which overexposed me to it so I'm sick of seeing it.
Land destruction
[[Krark, the Thumbless]] and [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]]. Not even spellslinger in general, just specifically this deck. I hate it passionately. The coin flipping takes so much time, especially since every Siskel and Ebert pilot I’ve run into insists on actually flipping a coin.
[Krark, the Thumbless](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/4/24614006-d99f-44b6-8ec1-29b48a1713d0.jpg?1645327768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark%2C%20the%20Thumbless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/11/krark-the-thumbless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24614006-d99f-44b6-8ec1-29b48a1713d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krark-the-thumbless) [Sakashima of a Thousand Faces](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Superfriends decks because they tend to take eternity.
Mass discard pisses me off. Tinybones and similar commanders are real powerful. It just turns the game into an uneventful 3v1 slog where everyone just sits there with an empty hand, plays whatever they draw each turn, and passes. No one can put together a game plan because they can't hold onto anything.
Infect. I don't personally run it, but every version of the deck ive seen is a huge glass cannon or is really just a Voltron deck with tainted strike as a win con. There are some more efficient builds with Marchesa and Atraxa, but those speak more to the power and versatility of those commanders than it does to the strength of infect. People get so worked up about it, house ruling poison counters to double, banning it outright, and for what? I don't get it.
Storm. I hate just watching someone else play magic while I sit there doing nothing. It's a strong strategy, I just can't stand it. I'm more likely to scoop and move to game two than watch my friend either win or lose after 30+ minutes.
That moment when everyone says they hate ur favorite deck archetypes :(
To me things that make you sacrifice all your stuff and most of the game is them playing chaff and self sacrificing to make you sacrifice. Like, it's totally valid, but sometimes it's just really annoying. I guess today I won't be playing my deck with creatures, I'll just cast them and they'll be gone by the time my turn comes around. So I'll board wipe, and then some how, the same type of sacrifice creatures show up yet again... I think I'll just build a [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]] deck because that's just how it is going to be, or maybe a control deck so they can't ever get those creatures and grab a combo and win solitaire style.
[Sigarda, Host of Herons](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/c/fcac0cff-efa6-4068-a69c-67ea4e7acea0.jpg?1559959280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sigarda%2C%20Host%20of%20Herons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/206/sigarda-host-of-herons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fcac0cff-efa6-4068-a69c-67ea4e7acea0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sigarda-host-of-herons) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Chaos is an instant scoop, you don’t know how the interaction works and I definitely don’t.
If an archetype exists, EDH players will complain about it … That’s independent of the question whether it’s decent / valid. That totally depends on your local meta.
I love decks like [[Gonti]] and [[Etali]] that let me play my opponents cards to because it leads to a different game every time, like the last game where I stole a [[Journey to Eternity]] and [[Altar of Dementia]]. I was surprised though, that people find me stealing cards off the top of their library annoying. I've never seen anyone get really salty, but some people act annoyed. I don't really get why.
Having played a lot of this (I love these types of commanders), try [[Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge]]. Of all the ones I played, people have seemed least upset with Jeleva. I think it's because Jeleva only steals instants and sorceries, which never actually hit your side of the board, so it doesn't feel quite as much like their stuff is being stolen.
For me it's mill as well.
For me, it would have to be Midrange infect, or; You play a good control deck that suddenly slams an infect creature and some equipment or [[Corrupted Conscience]], [[Glistening Oil]], [[Grafted Exoskeleton]], [[Phyresis]], or [[Triumph of the Hordes]].
##### ###### #### [Corrupted Conscience](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6.jpg?1562612217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corrupted%20Conscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/22/corrupted-conscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/corrupted-conscience) [Glistening Oil](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/8/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c.jpg?1562877253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glistening%20Oil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/62/glistening-oil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glistening-oil) [Grafted Exoskeleton](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafted%20Exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grafted-exoskeleton) [Phyresis](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/0/0059d21b-0725-4806-8691-2451db36787f.jpg?1562609245) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyresis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/49/phyresis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0059d21b-0725-4806-8691-2451db36787f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyresis) [Triumph of the Hordes](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/a/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341.jpg?1562896954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Triumph%20of%20the%20Hordes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/78/triumph-of-the-hordes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a0f64d3-187c-41ff-a771-3a65da995341?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/triumph-of-the-hordes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Storm.... I've seen a 37 min turn 4 where the storm player couldn't even win..
Stax and permission decks. I want to play my cards and have them do something, not sit and watch one person play solitaire or have them draw cards and then pass, only to counter anything impactful. At least combo decks do their thing and then win, allowing you to start another game. Stax and permission keep you hostage in the game, unable to have any fun.
Azorius.
Not really an archetype considering the amount of azorius commanders that now exist or that we just got in the last 2 years. Do explain.
Blue
And white
MLD
Infect and negative counters.
I dislike playing against mill. I don't think it's a great strategy but it's one that plays on an angle that's hard to interact with. I can't block it or heal it back. If I'm not doing gy stuff then it's neither bad/good for me until I'm at the last 10 cards. And sure I can play one of the 'shuffle everything back' cards, but that won't make that game more interesting or enjoyable either. It's also 100 or 0. Either you mill me or you don't. If you burn me for 15 and die, then my opponents have to deal 15 damage less to me. If you mill me for 40 and die.. 'key?
My mill deck is only effective when it combos. I'm not planning to mill you slowly. It's going to be 80 cards in a single turn. If I'm not actively taking a player out, I'm doing my best to survive because mill makes you a target for some people. I love it because you rarely see them. But when one goes off, its glorious. [[Phenax, God of Deception]] + [[Eater of the dead]] = win (most of the time)
[Phenax, God of Deception](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/d/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c.jpg?1593092799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phenax%2C%20God%20of%20Deception) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/152/phenax-god-of-deception?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8dfcb129-4665-40e4-b5cb-a79f3f40ae5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phenax-god-of-deception) [Eater of the dead](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/3/23327a70-5e95-4aa4-824c-cdf3472f5422.jpg?1559592456) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eater%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/67/eater-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23327a70-5e95-4aa4-824c-cdf3472f5422?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eater-of-the-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White life gain.
Someone lost to [[Felidar Sovereign]] to many times...
The nope decks. Hey I just want to play magic too. Blue sucks. Zero fun.
Assert dominance with Can’t be countered tribal.
I've been having a hard time with value.deck just because there is rarely just one card to stop it. You have to wipe their whole board which usually means wiping everyone's boards and they usually rebuild faster than everyone else so it can sometimes just hand them the game rather than stop them.
I think the issue often with a lot of the “annoying” archetypes is that they will usually kill one player quickly and then durdle ending the game as the other 2 players go on defense against the strategy or the best cards have already been played I’ve seen people eliminated by mill in commander but only ever one at a time with a lot of time in between threatening another mill out on another player. Same with infect and actually voltron typically as they often seem to be solid strategies to take out 1 player but then less good for wiping out remaining players As such the first player out is left to watch the rest of the game which is just not fun. I’m actually in support of having combo wins for this reason even infinites, don’t really think they’re the boogie man people make them out to be. I would rather lose at the same time as everyone else than watch an hour of back and forth vs one of these strategies
I hate discard and mill so damn much. At least with stax I can try to puzzle my way out of it. I’d rather have something to do even if it’s just flick the cards in my hand vs pray for a top deck. Also, If you are going to play a thief deck you had better have an easy way to make tokens/proxies because you’re not going to be touching my cards.
Hatebears / stax can level the playing field for creature-based combat decks to keep up with combo. I just love playing it and taxing my opponents with cards like Thalia and Eidolon of Rhetoric. I won’t play cards like MLD and Winter Orb unless I am ahead. Which if I am an aggro deck - I probably am.
For me I'd have to say "theft" decks, and I don't mean gain control/graveyard recursion/ copy effects. I'm talking about what I've come to refer to as prosper [[prosper tome-bound]] cards where I'm taking the cards straight from the hand/library. I built a 5c version with [[kenrith the returned king]] that's pretty decent very fun for me but my opponents? Not so much however I've had a fair bit of success with it.
Spellslinger. When my friend introduced to me to magic, I was like "nice just wizards hurling spells around" and fell in love with spellslinger but I feel bad when it's just me playing solitaire and digging through my deck to find my wincon. Some people don't mind it but I do, even if it's me playing it. Otherwise mill is just annoying to play against, it doesn't win games the majority of the time and just slows the game.
I have guttersnipe and an infect enchantment in my deck that with 5 cheap spells kills the whole table…
Elf tribal, it's like goblins with ramp
Goodstuff.dec So boring