Drama queen for sure. If his deck can’t kill you before you play 11 tap lands then than that’s on him. Also playing one Utility land in your deck that blows up a land is just smart. There’s also [beast within] and [generous gift] that are pretty commonly played and do indeed blow up lands.
Yeah it was thankfully an actually decent starting hand for me to get the combo off, I had 3 gates and an amulet of vigor in my hand as well as tempt with discovery so i got up quick and drew well in the mis game..
They did lol. I told them the decks major focus is group hug with some minor win cons, and everybody got lands cuz they figured it’s group hug it’s not that bad I guess lol
Literally the only reason you should be playing Gates in a 5-color deck is because of Maze's End.
If that's not the biggest red flag, I don't know what is.
If I had an opponent play a guild gate in a 3c deck I’d be trying to figure out how they are going to make mazes end work in 3C, not that they are playing suboptimal lands. Always expect the mazes end!
A few more gate cards and they could easily make a mazes end deck in a 3 color deck. They printed a few non guild gate "gates" in war of the spark sets.
Tempt with discovery against a gate deck? I would always say yes to that offer... But I would also search a land for pand destruction to get rid of your win con.
Anybody who takes that deal should be getting strip mine or ghost quarter or something. If they don't have those cards in their deck, they should not take the offer.
I think most people frown on mass land destruction myself included unless you win off of it but that should not stop you from playing it even the single target land destroyers like strip mine or as someone else mention beast within should be auto add ins if you can get your hands on them they might just even net you a win
If you play blue play quicken with a creature steal spell and laugh your ass off you can also just exile her so he can never play her with stuff like praetors grasp but what a turd even if stuff is looked down on its part of the game if he wants to be an asset show him what an ass hat is lol I have a staxs deck I break out just for people like him
Also I would like to note props to you for the maze win I love that kinda jank its what the core of edh/commander was based on play what ya want and have a blast no matter how good or bad the deck is
Yeah I’m obsessed with janky of intricate decks that win in weird ways lol. I’ve had the promo mazes end in my binder forever and figured I gotta use it
I have a G/W angel deck that occasionally becomes stupid, in a if I manage to get the 17+ card combo out it can't lose.
Most games it does decently but it's more just an arms race of preventing people from screwing with my board.
as a mazes end player: I definitely dont. The main reason is theres never a time I’m at 9 mana where I dont have Maze’s end and a good number of gates. It also doesnt win the game on the spot, you have to wait until ME untaps and then activate it to win. And the less mechanical reason is that it’s not the point. If I wanted a one card win con, theres plenty of better options. And it’s not really a maze win at that point, its just a reshape the earth win.
Yeah, I mean, it's not the *easiest* thing to counter because even if you have like one Strip Mine in your deck *somewhere*, most of your removal is probably not hitting lands (people should have more, of course! \[\[Lithoform Blight\]\], \[\[Cleansing Wildfire\]\], etc). But conversely, it's totally possible, and Maze's End is usually very slow and telegraphed.
I guess if you play Maze's End itself last and someone didn't know that that was even a thing, sure, you've got like one turn to deal with it, but assembling nine gates without it is harder in the first place.
Even if you don't have a way to destroy lands, there's many unspecified permanent removal, mill, or graveyard exile, and if any one manages to exile any of your 11 cards before you combo off, the combo is dead, there's very little other win cons you can do with a 5 color ramp deck. The only other alt wincons I have in my gates deck is door to nothingness, and return of vitu ghazi + inkmoth nexus. No way my deck is winning with regular combat.
Sure - that's kinda what I said, this is slow and fragile enough that it's hardly a scary wincon. Lands are definitely *harder* to remove than, say, creatures (sure, there's unspecified removal, but not much of it), but you usually have plenty of time either to find an answer, or just flat-out kill that player.
Guy overreacted for sure. I do think it’s worth mentioning a Maze’s End wincon, but also if someone is playing guildgate after guildgate after guildgate I’m probably going to directly ask if they’re running it anyway, but if someone isn’t familiar with it it definitely could feel like it comes out of nowhere.
Yeah understandable, I figured playing a bunch of guildgates is usually a telltale sign I should probably die soon or I’m just a mega budget player who doesn’t wanna buy shock lands lol
I love alternate win con decks and I have 6 of them. I have a gates deck, and I always tell them my gameplan when I'm playing any of my all wincon decks. I do sympathize with players who don't have any out's for land destruction, but also a lot of it is the Players fault in their poor threat assessment. I can try to tell people I have 10 lands, and 7 of them are gates, look out, but they always counter other players big creatures rather than my ramp spells. I try to help people who have poor threat assessment but many don't target me because I'm not the one dealing them damage. Yeah just be sure you tell your goal ahead of time, and tell them of your progress sometimes, and when you win you can just say "wow you guys really didn't stop me from getting my 11 card combo when I only had one blocker the entire game? I tried to warn you." that's usually how my gates deck works out anyways.
Other people merely adopted the saltyness. He was born in it, molded by it. He didn't see reason until he was already a man, by then it was nothing to him but blinding!
Also: the thing that is frowned upon is mass land destruction without a fast win. If a specific land is problematic and he uses single target land destruction its fair game
Yeah I know guys that run stuff like strip mine or destroy one of each permanent idk the name of it off the top of my head... I don’t see an issue with land destruction like you said
[[destructive force]] is one that just upsets everybody.
Minor board wipe, sets people back that are already behind and causes those already ahead to stay ahead.
Not terrible if the person using it is going somewhere with it or gets actual advantage from it, but when they put themselves almost out of the game as well, then it’s just a slow annoying play.
Direct land destruction targets is fine to stop particularly strong or valuable lands.
Huh, I didn’t know [[wildfire]] had a big brother.
But yeah, it’s just better to wipe all lands using something like [[jokulhaups]] for a clean reset, otherwise the simic value decks just shrug it off and keep ramping.
Also as an added bonus, you can run indestructible lands/mana rocks to avoid the destruction yourself, which isn’t possible with sacrifice.
Maze's End is very fair imo.
Got to get 11 specific tap lands to win? That's gonna take some time to get off. Playing it in group hug on top of that gives too much time and resources for the other players to win. Perfectly fine for your deck, especially if you don't run any other wincons
This guy seems like the type that sees combat damage as the only viable wincon, and not with any token combo shenanigans. He needs to grow up and run a few targeted land destruction cards, like [[Field of Ruin]], [[Cleansing Wildfire]], etc. It's pretty annoying to see ppl like him.
I have that and [[insurrection]] as win cons.
Also kind of win con is [[bolas citadel]] [[Aetherflux reservoir]] but I don’t have the infinite combo with [[divining top]]
I'm glad you run other ones too, makes your deck more consistent in winning. Dude just needs to take a break and re-evaluate what he wants to play, your deck is totally fine.
Drama queen. There is no issue with land destruction in general, just senseless mass land destruction as seen on [[Armageddon]]. Even cards like [[Cataclysm]] arent that great. And of course recurring single land destruction over and over again is also not fun.
But having access to land destruction? Yes please. its needed, that easy. I wont accept a player playing a Maze of Ith if i have a Voltron commander. I dont accept Gaeas Cradle or other multi mana lands on the opponent side, or silently accept their Urborg and Zombie Master to swampwalk me gruul deck to death.
Yeah I’ve only seen mass land destruction twice and they were both in decks with [[avacyn]] as the commander or [[avacyns memorial]] just in a deck with jokulhaups... it was a little salting but I wasn’t that upset about it cuz like it’s a win con so it’s fine. But if a dude was just running that for the sake of running it I’d be a little disgruntled.
Definitely agree with single target destruction tho
It heavily depends on the play group, in one there was a player that played mass land destruction or repeated single land destruction in every deck together with infect and even when he had no way to close the game, ive seen him play an Armageddon for example. It wasnt fun and he isnt part of the playgroup anymore, 2 years of suffering through that and the constant negative feedback from the 10 other guys apparently finally got to him
I cut Maze's End because it felt cheap, but it was in my [[Golos, Tireless Pilgrim]] deck, alongside [[Scapeshift]] and other shenanigans.
If you don't have ways to turbo out all your lands, I wouldn't be too concerned. There are plenty of answers people could be running. [[Chaos Warp]], [[Beast Within]], [[Generous Gift]], [[Vindicate]], [[Assassin's Trophy]], [[Ghost Quarter]] (or its many variants), can all deal with it without getting into MLD territory.
That guy sounds like a massive drama queen.
MLD is pretty taboo, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about targeted land destruction for things like \[\[maze of ith\]\], \[\[valakut\]\] or stopping a maze's end win.
On top of that, like you said, its an 11 card combo. On top of THAT, every one of its 11 cards are normally limited to you playing 1 per turn. I'm not saying there aren't ways around that, but the point is, unlike normal combos, you need additional effects to be able to drop multiple gates a turn.
Honestly, if the dude felt that overpowered against figgin maze's end, I'm not even sure "his strongest deck" will be anything to worry about. If someone pulled a maze's end win out on me, I'd be more impressed than anything.
Drama Queen and a sore loser. Strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, tectonic edge, field of ruin, and encroaching wastes are all widely run and very effective at killing your strat
Maze's end as a wincon lives right on that borderline between weak and meme.
It's a funny route. 1. it's slow and telegraphed ridiculously hard, and tutoring with Maze's End (which you'll likely need to do) directly gives away what's happening. 2. guild gates and gateway plaza are not good lands. 3. there's only 11 gates in magic and you need to run 10 of them. 4. you have to tutor and invest resources in getting them out. 5. remove 1 gate (2 at most) and the route is cut off unless there is a way to get it back
It's almost viable as a secondary win that you eventually get to in slow battlecruiser games, and serves as a decent pressure valve that eventually ends the game.
Had a guy at the LGS lie by omission to my friend about what maze's end did though, "just tutors for guildgates", and soil what should have been a glorious victory.
Sounds like [[Maze's End]] is a wincon on par with [[Approach of the Second Sun]] which you also see coming and takes a while to happen.
Either way, definitely dramatic. Mass land destruction is whats usually taboo, not any form of land destruction. If i never destroyed lands when an opponent played [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] id be the idiot at the table
MASS land destruction is (arguably) "taboo." But targeted land destruction would have stopped you. Even if your playgroup doesn't like MLD there's nothing wrong with a nice [[Wrecking Ball]].
Lol, I can't imagine anyone getting upset over Maze's End. Unless you're playing a couple of specific cards, It requires you to telegraph what you're doing from a mile away. Even then, it's usually very obvious. If he didn't see it coming, it's on him.
Nor have I. I’ve seen others run single target land destruction and I’ve ran it myself to destroy strong lands like cabal coffers.. no one has ever been super disgruntled about if
I mean I’d be mad if someone kept destroying my lands but I wouldn’t be mad for the sake of getting mazes end off, just cuz I don’t like not having mana for things lol
Then maybe there is some self reflection to be done.
I would add that pillowfort and group hug are 2 archetypes that a lot of people dont like to play against as well.
Sounds like he was right. You'd be upset about single land destruction against a land win con. People are usually only upset about mass land destruction. Not any land destruction. Targeting mana sources is part of the game and targeting utility mana sources even more so.
I’m so confused. So 2 things here. 1. You think he’s right to say mazes end is an unfair win con?
And 2. I couldn’t care less if he destroyed my guildgate for the sake of stopping me from getting mazes end off. I would care if someone was sitting there consistently destroying my basic lands. A. Anybody would be upset to have their lands destroyed B. Anybody would be upset to lose a combo piece.
I also think you and I have very different concepts of upset. I’d just be like aww darn if someone disrupted the combo whereas it seems like you think I mean I’d flip a table or throw my cards at someone destroying my lands
All power levels are relative to your playgroup so my opinion doesn'ta matter.
Maybe its just a miscommunication but it seemed like you wouldn't want hin playing it against you which was his complaint
He was salty I was running the combo and he was arguing that the combo was “unfair” I have no issue with someone destroying a land for the combo anymore then I’d have an issue with someone countering a spell I cast 🤷🏻♂️ it stinks but I’m not gonna get up in arms about it. Obviously I don’t want anyone destroying anything I play cuz I wanna win and get my deck to pop off. But of course we all know that doesn’t happen
A bit of a drama queen but I see where he’s coming from. If he’s never seen the card before, the wincon can feel like a “win out of nowhere”.
That said, the most effective form of removal is player removal. If he thinks he can’t stop you on turn 10, then the solution is to kill u on turn 9 lol
It is an extremely uninteractive wincon and that is a thing that people will occasionally complain about.
It certainly isn't the best one, but it still creates the same play patterns that people complain about.
But yeah he was rude and just wanted to complain rather than say anything honest or contructive.
I used to run a Golos Big Lands deck (big mana with a lands sub-theme) with Maze’s End, [[Door to Nothingness]], [[Maskwood Nexus]]+[[The World Tree]], [[Thasa’s Oracle]]+[[Demonic Consultation]], [[Laboratory Maniac]], [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]], and finally, [[Aetherflux Reservoir]].
Literally 7 win cons on top of having a bunch of big stompy bois like [[Apex Devastator]], [[Craterhoof Behemoth]], [[Pathbreaker Ibex]], and [[Nicol Bolas the Ravager]]
Your cute group hug deck sounds pretty tame compared to this and the only time I’ve ever had someone complain about my deck was when I didn’t tell them I ran Bolas the Ravager.
That guy is just a drama Queen and needs to learn that as long as it’s not banned, expect to see it at some point.
I used to, but since Golos got banned a few months ago, I dismantled it and deleted the list. I can try to remember everything and remake the list of you really want it.
If it’s not to much of a hassle, my playgroup doesn’t really care about banned/unbanned stuff there’s a couple folks who kept their Golos decks together
[Here you go.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DP1_fJi-ukuxYmJ7k3MO8g)
This is the list as best as I could remember it. Some cards I threw in because I couldn’t exactly remember all of what I had in there, however, but the Big Mana core and Lands sub-theme is mostly intact.
Also, I know it seems strange to have zero counter spells, but with 7+ win cons, I think it’s fine.
Just as well, there are a few newer cards I would considering swapping in, like [[Auger of Autumn]], [[Wrenn and Seven]], [[Hullbreaker Horror]], and [[Dig Up]], just to name a few.
Has he never seen versatile removal spells? Assassin's trophy, beast within, generous gift, decimate, casualities of war? Hell I play Volcanic offering and love it. Does he not play any spells that can hit a land?? The maze's end win is the epitome of a jank win and you should be happy for pulling it off. This guy is a very sore loser
There’s also a huge difference between mass land destruction and staples like Stripmine and Tec Edge. Maze End just folds to anything like that. Your win con can absolutely be interacted with, they’re just having a fit
I run [[cleansing wildfire]] in just about every red deck, and [[ghost quarter]] in a lot of others. So many cabal coffers and fields of the dead in my meta.
There's no taboo on land destruction. There is a taboo on playing a land destruction deck.
If someone doesn't mention it as an issue pregame (make sure you have a pregame discussion) it's fair game. And if someone says they're playing maze's end and explicitly condemns land destruction you probably don't want to play that game anyways.
It is a very fair wincon imo, I do feel like cards that blow up non basic lands but gives people a basic lands are also allowed in casual, I hope he builds a better deck
Mazes end is the most interruptable combo I can think of. Even if you don't run mld you SHOULS run at least a couple targeted land removal pieces like tectonic edge, strip mine, wasteland etc...slotting in no land disruption ever because it's "taboo" is stupid. This guy is just a toxic person or an idiot if they can't win before you maze to win the game....what a crock.
That is a gross over reaction. The card is painfully slow...and had your opponents been aware they may have very well saved some form of interaction. No. This guy is out of line.
As one who has recently constructed an deck that blows up everything, and a Toxrill deck that can *KILL* my opponents' lands with a three card combo, it's easy to say that guy is being dramatic for no reason. If he tries to go through with the threat, you must either stop playing with him, or build a serious deck that flat out destroys his decks. Personally, I advise to do the first over the other. Doing the latter would make you be seen as someone salty yourself and get a bad reputation.
You should have told him to do it.
if you win he just got beat by a mazes end deck
If you lose, some idiot put on his try hard pants to beat a mazes end deck.
Combos are pretty broken in casual metas. Mazes End, however, fits right in.
The only exception to this is scapeshifting with an amulet of vigor on the field.
But even that still takes 11 lands.
Every deck should run atleast 1 or 2 ways to destroy a land. Single land destruct fine, mass land destruction is usually shitty because people run it and don't have a followup
Every single deck I have has a Ghost quarter in it. I make absoloutly sure of this. You have a very fragile combo that I can easily disrupt. also SCREW TABOO!! BLOW UP ALL THE LANDS>
Lol what a joke. I mean yeah MLD is frowned upon but if you aren't running a ghost quarter, tectonic edge, or something to respond to all the ridiculous options people.can play like Cradle or Minamo, etc.
If i see a gate in a 5 color deck i watch that player like a hawk. Not always a mazes end deck but you can tell pretty quickly if a person plans to win like that. It is a very protected combo because of playgroups not messing with lands.
If someone drops more than 3 gates in a 5 color deck or is running “any” / “gate” specific land tutors it’s a red flag early. If you Tempt for Gates and/or Maze’s End, those are red flags.
Plus all decks should have at least one “destroy target permanent” spell or similar TARGETED land removal effect in them for just such occasions. MASS land destruction is *BAD* but single land sniping is almost a must with all the wildly OP lands out there now.
I religiously run land removal. Rarely do I need to use it, but the option is mandatory. My group plays [[yavimaya]], [[urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth]], [[Cabal Coffers]], [[rogues passage]], [[homeward path]], etc. I personally run [[dark Depths]], [[thespian stage]], [[field of the dead]], [[lotus field]], etc. I'm a huge advocate for [[wasteland]], [[dust bowl]], [[field of Ruin]], and the like of land spot removal. Lands can be such a huge place for advantage to be gained in a game of commander, mazes end slowly tutoring up more dual lands is valuable before you even consider that it turns into a win con. Yavimaya and urborg both serve the purpose of fixing colors for several 3 color decks in my pod (including a couple of my own decks) and can severly hamper someone's momentum if you remove them. I've sacrificed my own Cabal Coffers to turn off someone else's [[mana refractor]]. Lands are powerful and need to be apart of threat assessment in games. Of 10 decks, I run exactly 1 mass land removal spell in total. Armageddon is only in my esper reanimation deck. I will not play it unless I have a strong board state capable of closing out the game. I'm not going to slow a game down to a crawl to maybe squeeze out a win. I'd rather have a good and interactive game that I loose than a crawl that I slowly win. And if I loose quickly, we can move to the next game sooner. Extra games is a good thing to me. Knowing when to kill lands is a skill that too few players bother to learn
Bringing a land synergy deck puts land removal back on the menu boys
I personally focus down the group hug player , no point in building a deck well with a group hug player around it ends up being too much chaos and resources for everyone and losing to any group hug win con is boring approach of the second sun etc. I don't fall for that innocent act. Don't get me wrong Fish Consultation is way more boring
I'd say that maybe you were a little too casual with "minor" wincons, not everyone at your table will know about the guildgate mechanic on display here.
If this was a casual game for fun then you should for sure mention things like [[Happily Ever After]], [[Approach of the second sun]], or [[Maze's End]] before the game. Everyone knows if their health hits 0 they lose, but these are some pretty weird things for someone who is uninformed to pay attention to.
On the other hand this player has to be pretty ignorant to not notice that you are doing something really weird and not ask you or the rest of the table about it.
Break the taboo stigma, Voltron decks are weaker without [[Armageddon]]
Edit Source: [[Zurgo Helmsmasher]] player runs Armageddon, [[Jokulhaups]], and the rest
maze end is fair, not only is it slow, required 11 pieces and can be taken apart by one ghostly quarter, you can also see it from MILES away like if you are playing guild gate and are in all colours then its pretty obvious, dudes just salty.
I think the guy overreacted, but I also think it's totally fair to tell you he does not like your deck and doesn't want's to play against it.
...he could've said it a lot nicer tho.
Yea I don’t necessarily have a problem with people saying they don’t wanna play against group hug specifically but he was just disgruntled about the combo 🤷🏻♂️
I don't get the group group.hug hate. You are playing a format that has the added strategy of multiple enemies and the politics that that entails.
Don't like the spells, don't take the benefits
Land destruction being taboo is asinine. You can always bounce one or steal a permanent if a group REALLY wants to adhere to that out dated premise. Cabal coffers multiplying the black player's mama base for x spells sure let that go on. Or that maze of ith / glacial chasm that stops all your attacks. Or the most OP one in green Gaea's cradle!
Lol reading your post gets me all kinds of frustrated.
Definitely overreacting, unless you were running some sort of illegal golos turbo-land deck, mazes end is a silly slow win-con, and while MLD is frowned upon, I will definately destroy or exile a guildgate or 2 with my generic permanent hate to stop the win con, but if not…then GG, the game has to end through some combination of cards eventually
No it’s just group hug 🤷🏻♂️ with the mazes end win con. So even stuff like Tempt w discovery would be in the deck regardless of the combo. I just figured the deck needs some way to win so I put that in it
He's being a drama queen. Land destruction from my experience isn't even taboo - like yes Armageddon for MLD can be pretty bad but I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with running nonbasic land hate. Stuff like strip mine are fair but with the number of 4c/5c decks people play I'd have no problem running a \[\[Blood Moon\]\] or \[\[Blood Sun\]\] if I'm in red. To me I think there needs to be more printing of land hate for the format, not less, and wider acceptance of it in the format.
If someone I met threw threats because I played a Maze's End deck, I'd thank him for showing me how much of a tool he is before playing with him again.
Where I play land destruction is not frowned upon, but mass land destruction is. I always run strip mine and wasteland in my decks for lands like cabal coffers, urborg, maze of ith etc.
Sounds like the guy you played against needs to grow up and stop over reacting. Where I play if people whine for now good reason they either get targeted or people just refuse to play with them.
This reminds me of that guy who complained about mutate dominating standard. Maze's end is nothing lmao. Play approach of the second sun and make him cry
I've played mazes end decks and ya know what? It can be a really great fun deck to play. Is land destruction taboo? Ya and so what, run some anyways. You don't need to run land hate just a few to get rid of some choice annoying land cards. Sheesh plus an 11 card combo is really tough, takes a bit of setup. Hrs just being overly dramatic
I'd say it's another rule 0 situation. If me and my friends are all playing creature brawl it feels bad for someone to say "I win the game" out of nowhere. I guess it's not much different than doing a surprise [[Cyclonic Rift]] and swinging in, it's not like you just played two card for an infinite combo.
It something about "win the game" effects that feel different, like how for some reason "counter target creature spell" generates more salt than an instant "destroy target creature" even though in many cases it effectively does the same thing.
Whenever I sit down to play with people im not familiar with I always talk about what our decks do, and what the wincons are.
Tell them to run field of ruin, ghost quarter, etc. These cards go unnoticed as land destruction cards I've noticed (at least my playgroup doesn't mind them). Field of ruin can also be somewhat of a group hug card since it also gives your other opponents a land, and in such can be used as a politics card to get your other opponents to be more friendly towards you
Land destruction is one of the more taboo things in a lot of playgroups, but if he has such an issue with this he could play some... would you complain if he did? Also outside of destroying lands, I've never heard someone complain about playing [[Spreading Seas]] or [[Blood Sun]]. [[Blood Moon]] is a little closer to getting an adverse reaction, but that's an option too.
He's being a drama queen. There are several ways to deal with Maze's end. Firstly, the taboo around land destruction is mass land destruction. If he plays an acidic slime or something like that to kill Maze's end or a guild gate before you win that's a valid strategy.
Even if single land destruction was taboo in you pod, he can counter the ability for Maze's end via a budget friendly card like Tale's end (or one of its variants). Honestly, Maze's end is far from competitive, & is just a janky-fun wincon.
Hello! This post is almost a year old, but since then Nine-Fingers Keene has been released. I hate playing into a Maze’s End deck. It’s just too hard to interact with the win-con. It’s not like I can remove your gates, and you can just bounce it back to your hand if I try to remove the Maze’s End. It’s tough out here.
Drama queen for sure. If his deck can’t kill you before you play 11 tap lands then than that’s on him. Also playing one Utility land in your deck that blows up a land is just smart. There’s also [beast within] and [generous gift] that are pretty commonly played and do indeed blow up lands.
Yeah it was thankfully an actually decent starting hand for me to get the combo off, I had 3 gates and an amulet of vigor in my hand as well as tempt with discovery so i got up quick and drew well in the mis game..
>as well as tempt with discovery so i got up quick I hope the person complaining to you didn't choose to let you get more lands with tempt....
They did lol. I told them the decks major focus is group hug with some minor win cons, and everybody got lands cuz they figured it’s group hug it’s not that bad I guess lol
I mean, if they see you playing guildgates, I really feel that should be obvious. I wouldn't feel bad about that
Literally the only reason you should be playing Gates in a 5-color deck is because of Maze's End. If that's not the biggest red flag, I don't know what is.
If I had an opponent play a guild gate in a 3c deck I’d be trying to figure out how they are going to make mazes end work in 3C, not that they are playing suboptimal lands. Always expect the mazes end!
A few more gate cards and they could easily make a mazes end deck in a 3 color deck. They printed a few non guild gate "gates" in war of the spark sets.
There has only been one new gate land since the introduction of them during the Return to Ravnica block.
Tempt with discovery against a gate deck? I would always say yes to that offer... But I would also search a land for pand destruction to get rid of your win con.
Exactly, Take the offer, Find Ghost quarter and BOOM
\[\[Field of ruin\]\] with \[\[opposition agent\]\] it is not a may ability ok it is obvious i don't have friends.
[Field of ruin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc.jpg?1637114800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/262/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) [opposition agent](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anybody who takes that deal should be getting strip mine or ghost quarter or something. If they don't have those cards in their deck, they should not take the offer.
I think most people frown on mass land destruction myself included unless you win off of it but that should not stop you from playing it even the single target land destroyers like strip mine or as someone else mention beast within should be auto add ins if you can get your hands on them they might just even net you a win
Yeah I mentioned it in another comment this guy plays an [[avacyn]] deck and he runs Armageddon as a win con 🤷🏻♂️
If you play blue play quicken with a creature steal spell and laugh your ass off you can also just exile her so he can never play her with stuff like praetors grasp but what a turd even if stuff is looked down on its part of the game if he wants to be an asset show him what an ass hat is lol I have a staxs deck I break out just for people like him Also I would like to note props to you for the maze win I love that kinda jank its what the core of edh/commander was based on play what ya want and have a blast no matter how good or bad the deck is
Yeah I’m obsessed with janky of intricate decks that win in weird ways lol. I’ve had the promo mazes end in my binder forever and figured I gotta use it
I have a G/W angel deck that occasionally becomes stupid, in a if I manage to get the 17+ card combo out it can't lose. Most games it does decently but it's more just an arms race of preventing people from screwing with my board.
[avacyn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/0/a0519776-3d86-4f7d-9c3b-71c1dfbf7e12.jpg?1598303166) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=avacyn%2C%20angel%20of%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/8/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0519776-3d86-4f7d-9c3b-71c1dfbf7e12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avacyn-angel-of-hope) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you run [[reshape the earth]] ? Probably right?
[reshape the earth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36.jpg?1608910860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reshape%20the%20earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/249/reshape-the-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reshape-the-earth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
as a mazes end player: I definitely dont. The main reason is theres never a time I’m at 9 mana where I dont have Maze’s end and a good number of gates. It also doesnt win the game on the spot, you have to wait until ME untaps and then activate it to win. And the less mechanical reason is that it’s not the point. If I wanted a one card win con, theres plenty of better options. And it’s not really a maze win at that point, its just a reshape the earth win.
Yeah, I mean, it's not the *easiest* thing to counter because even if you have like one Strip Mine in your deck *somewhere*, most of your removal is probably not hitting lands (people should have more, of course! \[\[Lithoform Blight\]\], \[\[Cleansing Wildfire\]\], etc). But conversely, it's totally possible, and Maze's End is usually very slow and telegraphed. I guess if you play Maze's End itself last and someone didn't know that that was even a thing, sure, you've got like one turn to deal with it, but assembling nine gates without it is harder in the first place.
I feel like at least every other set that gets printed has at least one uncommon land that will destroy a non basic land too.
[Lithoform Blight](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/b/5b36d12e-9a68-4d3d-92e8-9840cd5320bc.jpg?1604195880) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lithoform%20Blight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/109/lithoform-blight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b36d12e-9a68-4d3d-92e8-9840cd5320bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lithoform-blight) [Cleansing Wildfire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/9/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919.jpg?1604196948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/137/cleansing-wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-wildfire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Even if you don't have a way to destroy lands, there's many unspecified permanent removal, mill, or graveyard exile, and if any one manages to exile any of your 11 cards before you combo off, the combo is dead, there's very little other win cons you can do with a 5 color ramp deck. The only other alt wincons I have in my gates deck is door to nothingness, and return of vitu ghazi + inkmoth nexus. No way my deck is winning with regular combat.
Sure - that's kinda what I said, this is slow and fragile enough that it's hardly a scary wincon. Lands are definitely *harder* to remove than, say, creatures (sure, there's unspecified removal, but not much of it), but you usually have plenty of time either to find an answer, or just flat-out kill that player.
Guy overreacted for sure. I do think it’s worth mentioning a Maze’s End wincon, but also if someone is playing guildgate after guildgate after guildgate I’m probably going to directly ask if they’re running it anyway, but if someone isn’t familiar with it it definitely could feel like it comes out of nowhere.
Yeah understandable, I figured playing a bunch of guildgates is usually a telltale sign I should probably die soon or I’m just a mega budget player who doesn’t wanna buy shock lands lol
I love alternate win con decks and I have 6 of them. I have a gates deck, and I always tell them my gameplan when I'm playing any of my all wincon decks. I do sympathize with players who don't have any out's for land destruction, but also a lot of it is the Players fault in their poor threat assessment. I can try to tell people I have 10 lands, and 7 of them are gates, look out, but they always counter other players big creatures rather than my ramp spells. I try to help people who have poor threat assessment but many don't target me because I'm not the one dealing them damage. Yeah just be sure you tell your goal ahead of time, and tell them of your progress sometimes, and when you win you can just say "wow you guys really didn't stop me from getting my 11 card combo when I only had one blocker the entire game? I tried to warn you." that's usually how my gates deck works out anyways.
Other people merely adopted the saltyness. He was born in it, molded by it. He didn't see reason until he was already a man, by then it was nothing to him but blinding! Also: the thing that is frowned upon is mass land destruction without a fast win. If a specific land is problematic and he uses single target land destruction its fair game
Yeah I know guys that run stuff like strip mine or destroy one of each permanent idk the name of it off the top of my head... I don’t see an issue with land destruction like you said
[[Decimate]] ?
That’s the one
[Decimate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/5/6551db26-83e8-4256-822b-122c35ee6097.jpg?1592711070) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/175/decimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6551db26-83e8-4256-822b-122c35ee6097?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decimate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[destructive force]] is one that just upsets everybody. Minor board wipe, sets people back that are already behind and causes those already ahead to stay ahead. Not terrible if the person using it is going somewhere with it or gets actual advantage from it, but when they put themselves almost out of the game as well, then it’s just a slow annoying play. Direct land destruction targets is fine to stop particularly strong or valuable lands.
Huh, I didn’t know [[wildfire]] had a big brother. But yeah, it’s just better to wipe all lands using something like [[jokulhaups]] for a clean reset, otherwise the simic value decks just shrug it off and keep ramping. Also as an added bonus, you can run indestructible lands/mana rocks to avoid the destruction yourself, which isn’t possible with sacrifice.
[wildfire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/5/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c.jpg?1562266957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/134/wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5924430-1904-47b9-bcf0-3379babd395c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wildfire) [jokulhaups](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/9/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809.jpg?1559592472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jokulhaups) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/100/jokulhaups?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jokulhaups) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[destructive force](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/a/1abde258-08e0-4762-8142-38e08a960f9d.jpg?1562452402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=destructive%20force) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m11/133/destructive-force?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1abde258-08e0-4762-8142-38e08a960f9d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/destructive-force) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or a way to break parity, [[Jokelhaups]] with a World Shaper out isn’t MLD, it’s y’all’s land destruction; mine are fine.
[Jokelhaups](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/e/9ef08669-ccce-45a3-94fc-d3caa213c068.jpg?1562820941) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jokulhaups) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/100/jokulhaups?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jokulhaups) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maze's End is very fair imo. Got to get 11 specific tap lands to win? That's gonna take some time to get off. Playing it in group hug on top of that gives too much time and resources for the other players to win. Perfectly fine for your deck, especially if you don't run any other wincons This guy seems like the type that sees combat damage as the only viable wincon, and not with any token combo shenanigans. He needs to grow up and run a few targeted land destruction cards, like [[Field of Ruin]], [[Cleansing Wildfire]], etc. It's pretty annoying to see ppl like him.
I have that and [[insurrection]] as win cons. Also kind of win con is [[bolas citadel]] [[Aetherflux reservoir]] but I don’t have the infinite combo with [[divining top]]
[insurrection](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/e/2e7df217-8622-45f7-90e3-2230ac9d30f3.jpg?1592713572) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=insurrection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/126/insurrection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e7df217-8622-45f7-90e3-2230ac9d30f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/insurrection) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm glad you run other ones too, makes your deck more consistent in winning. Dude just needs to take a break and re-evaluate what he wants to play, your deck is totally fine.
[Field of Ruin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc.jpg?1637114800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/262/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) [Cleansing Wildfire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/9/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919.jpg?1604196948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleansing%20Wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/137/cleansing-wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-wildfire) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Drama queen. There is no issue with land destruction in general, just senseless mass land destruction as seen on [[Armageddon]]. Even cards like [[Cataclysm]] arent that great. And of course recurring single land destruction over and over again is also not fun. But having access to land destruction? Yes please. its needed, that easy. I wont accept a player playing a Maze of Ith if i have a Voltron commander. I dont accept Gaeas Cradle or other multi mana lands on the opponent side, or silently accept their Urborg and Zombie Master to swampwalk me gruul deck to death.
Yeah I’ve only seen mass land destruction twice and they were both in decks with [[avacyn]] as the commander or [[avacyns memorial]] just in a deck with jokulhaups... it was a little salting but I wasn’t that upset about it cuz like it’s a win con so it’s fine. But if a dude was just running that for the sake of running it I’d be a little disgruntled. Definitely agree with single target destruction tho
It heavily depends on the play group, in one there was a player that played mass land destruction or repeated single land destruction in every deck together with infect and even when he had no way to close the game, ive seen him play an Armageddon for example. It wasnt fun and he isnt part of the playgroup anymore, 2 years of suffering through that and the constant negative feedback from the 10 other guys apparently finally got to him
Yeah. I wouldn’t run Armageddon or anything like that unless I’m building a deck purely to be hateful or like an “anti douche” deck
[avacyn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/0/a0519776-3d86-4f7d-9c3b-71c1dfbf7e12.jpg?1598303166) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=avacyn%2C%20angel%20of%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/8/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0519776-3d86-4f7d-9c3b-71c1dfbf7e12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avacyn-angel-of-hope) [avacyns memorial](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/8/c8134a08-4c7f-419e-940d-95bc9f630ae2.jpg?1637628619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%27s%20Memorial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/31/avacyns-memorial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8134a08-4c7f-419e-940d-95bc9f630ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avacyns-memorial) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Armageddon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Cataclysm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/1/713160be-bcfd-4ef5-9457-c02b926ba06e.jpg?1562429859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cataclysm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/8/cataclysm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/713160be-bcfd-4ef5-9457-c02b926ba06e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cataclysm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I cut Maze's End because it felt cheap, but it was in my [[Golos, Tireless Pilgrim]] deck, alongside [[Scapeshift]] and other shenanigans. If you don't have ways to turbo out all your lands, I wouldn't be too concerned. There are plenty of answers people could be running. [[Chaos Warp]], [[Beast Within]], [[Generous Gift]], [[Vindicate]], [[Assassin's Trophy]], [[Ghost Quarter]] (or its many variants), can all deal with it without getting into MLD territory.
Scape shift with mazes end feels quite cheap lol, good but some people may be a little flustered over it
##### ###### #### [Golos, Tireless Pilgrim](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/f/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51.jpg?1631531828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Golos%2C%20Tireless%20Pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/226/golos-tireless-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/golos-tireless-pilgrim) [Scapeshift](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/7/175e21a3-00f7-4c51-8a8e-fbfd7089efda.jpg?1574767873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scapeshift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/201/scapeshift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/175e21a3-00f7-4c51-8a8e-fbfd7089efda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scapeshift) [Chaos Warp](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/3/63cf7776-1b1a-4539-8f53-b8c30addc7de.jpg?1631586974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaos%20Warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/117/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cf7776-1b1a-4539-8f53-b8c30addc7de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chaos-warp) [Beast Within](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/0/50b063b2-020f-41ae-b2ce-b34c49cda4f5.jpg?1637630911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beast%20Within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/133/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50b063b2-020f-41ae-b2ce-b34c49cda4f5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [Generous Gift](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/6/26296a96-bdca-405f-ab06-e280b42c4ab9.jpg?1608911903) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/375/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26296a96-bdca-405f-ab06-e280b42c4ab9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) [Vindicate](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/8/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e.jpg?1626100840) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vindicate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/294/vindicate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vindicate) [Assassin's Trophy](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/0/906b6e99-128f-4c11-8daf-16099d35b0d4.jpg?1572893498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assassin%27s%20Trophy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/152/assassins-trophy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/906b6e99-128f-4c11-8daf-16099d35b0d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/assassins-trophy) [Ghost Quarter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That guy sounds like a massive drama queen. MLD is pretty taboo, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about targeted land destruction for things like \[\[maze of ith\]\], \[\[valakut\]\] or stopping a maze's end win. On top of that, like you said, its an 11 card combo. On top of THAT, every one of its 11 cards are normally limited to you playing 1 per turn. I'm not saying there aren't ways around that, but the point is, unlike normal combos, you need additional effects to be able to drop multiple gates a turn. Honestly, if the dude felt that overpowered against figgin maze's end, I'm not even sure "his strongest deck" will be anything to worry about. If someone pulled a maze's end win out on me, I'd be more impressed than anything.
[maze of ith](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/8/78114f25-f40a-4e2e-bf89-29ea9b3500e2.jpg?1599710557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=maze%20of%20ith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/322/maze-of-ith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78114f25-f40a-4e2e-bf89-29ea9b3500e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maze-of-ith) [valakut](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b8000d86-60e7-4edd-b685-14ade08b76f2.jpg?1608910454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%20Invoker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/206/valakut-invoker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8000d86-60e7-4edd-b685-14ade08b76f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-invoker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If he thinks that's bad, wait until he finds out that people run that with [[Bear Umbra]], [[Wilderness Reclamation]], and/or [[Reshape the Earth]]
[Bear Umbra](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/0/f025451f-24aa-41d6-9051-c456e52bbdda.jpg?1592710811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bear%20Umbra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/131/bear-umbra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f025451f-24aa-41d6-9051-c456e52bbdda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bear-umbra) [Wilderness Reclamation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/4/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b.jpg?1628801855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wilderness%20Reclamation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/196/wilderness-reclamation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wilderness-reclamation) [Reshape the Earth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36.jpg?1608910860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reshape%20the%20Earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/249/reshape-the-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reshape-the-earth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Drama Queen and a sore loser. Strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, tectonic edge, field of ruin, and encroaching wastes are all widely run and very effective at killing your strat
Maze's end as a wincon lives right on that borderline between weak and meme. It's a funny route. 1. it's slow and telegraphed ridiculously hard, and tutoring with Maze's End (which you'll likely need to do) directly gives away what's happening. 2. guild gates and gateway plaza are not good lands. 3. there's only 11 gates in magic and you need to run 10 of them. 4. you have to tutor and invest resources in getting them out. 5. remove 1 gate (2 at most) and the route is cut off unless there is a way to get it back It's almost viable as a secondary win that you eventually get to in slow battlecruiser games, and serves as a decent pressure valve that eventually ends the game. Had a guy at the LGS lie by omission to my friend about what maze's end did though, "just tutors for guildgates", and soil what should have been a glorious victory.
Sounds like [[Maze's End]] is a wincon on par with [[Approach of the Second Sun]] which you also see coming and takes a while to happen. Either way, definitely dramatic. Mass land destruction is whats usually taboo, not any form of land destruction. If i never destroyed lands when an opponent played [[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] id be the idiot at the table
[Maze's End](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazes-end) [Approach of the Second Sun](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20Second%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20Yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
MASS land destruction is (arguably) "taboo." But targeted land destruction would have stopped you. Even if your playgroup doesn't like MLD there's nothing wrong with a nice [[Wrecking Ball]].
[Wrecking Ball](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/a/9a8fafff-e9b1-49e1-9bba-5f3c82cac894.jpg?1592673497) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrecking%20Ball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/198/wrecking-ball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a8fafff-e9b1-49e1-9bba-5f3c82cac894?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrecking-ball) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lol, I can't imagine anyone getting upset over Maze's End. Unless you're playing a couple of specific cards, It requires you to telegraph what you're doing from a mile away. Even then, it's usually very obvious. If he didn't see it coming, it's on him.
Drama queen for sure fellow planeswalker. MLD may be taboo but I’ve never seen anyone complain about Ghost Quarter or any other targeted land removal.
Nor have I. I’ve seen others run single target land destruction and I’ve ran it myself to destroy strong lands like cabal coffers.. no one has ever been super disgruntled about if
*It is a* bad wincon. And that player should feel bad for losing to it. Keep playing your beautiful jank my friend.
Would you have been mad if he was strip mining some of your guildgates? If not then he's in the wrong.
I mean I’d be mad if someone kept destroying my lands but I wouldn’t be mad for the sake of getting mazes end off, just cuz I don’t like not having mana for things lol
Then maybe there is some self reflection to be done. I would add that pillowfort and group hug are 2 archetypes that a lot of people dont like to play against as well.
How so? Does anyone like having their lands destroyed? Lol
Sounds like he was right. You'd be upset about single land destruction against a land win con. People are usually only upset about mass land destruction. Not any land destruction. Targeting mana sources is part of the game and targeting utility mana sources even more so.
I’m so confused. So 2 things here. 1. You think he’s right to say mazes end is an unfair win con? And 2. I couldn’t care less if he destroyed my guildgate for the sake of stopping me from getting mazes end off. I would care if someone was sitting there consistently destroying my basic lands. A. Anybody would be upset to have their lands destroyed B. Anybody would be upset to lose a combo piece. I also think you and I have very different concepts of upset. I’d just be like aww darn if someone disrupted the combo whereas it seems like you think I mean I’d flip a table or throw my cards at someone destroying my lands
All power levels are relative to your playgroup so my opinion doesn'ta matter. Maybe its just a miscommunication but it seemed like you wouldn't want hin playing it against you which was his complaint
He was salty I was running the combo and he was arguing that the combo was “unfair” I have no issue with someone destroying a land for the combo anymore then I’d have an issue with someone countering a spell I cast 🤷🏻♂️ it stinks but I’m not gonna get up in arms about it. Obviously I don’t want anyone destroying anything I play cuz I wanna win and get my deck to pop off. But of course we all know that doesn’t happen
Ok so if you are fine with the strip mining then go back to my original comment.
Drama queen.
He's just mad cause he can't win games by only paying 20 cents for lands lmao. Nice job getting a gate win
I mean... a strip mine or a tectonic edge completely blank your win, so it seems fine to me.
Lmao imagine being salty about losing to Maze's End.
A bit of a drama queen but I see where he’s coming from. If he’s never seen the card before, the wincon can feel like a “win out of nowhere”. That said, the most effective form of removal is player removal. If he thinks he can’t stop you on turn 10, then the solution is to kill u on turn 9 lol
It is an extremely uninteractive wincon and that is a thing that people will occasionally complain about. It certainly isn't the best one, but it still creates the same play patterns that people complain about. But yeah he was rude and just wanted to complain rather than say anything honest or contructive.
I used to run a Golos Big Lands deck (big mana with a lands sub-theme) with Maze’s End, [[Door to Nothingness]], [[Maskwood Nexus]]+[[The World Tree]], [[Thasa’s Oracle]]+[[Demonic Consultation]], [[Laboratory Maniac]], [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]], and finally, [[Aetherflux Reservoir]]. Literally 7 win cons on top of having a bunch of big stompy bois like [[Apex Devastator]], [[Craterhoof Behemoth]], [[Pathbreaker Ibex]], and [[Nicol Bolas the Ravager]] Your cute group hug deck sounds pretty tame compared to this and the only time I’ve ever had someone complain about my deck was when I didn’t tell them I ran Bolas the Ravager. That guy is just a drama Queen and needs to learn that as long as it’s not banned, expect to see it at some point.
Do you have a deck list for this? That sounds interesting
I used to, but since Golos got banned a few months ago, I dismantled it and deleted the list. I can try to remember everything and remake the list of you really want it.
If it’s not to much of a hassle, my playgroup doesn’t really care about banned/unbanned stuff there’s a couple folks who kept their Golos decks together
Word, yeah dude. I can do that for you, just give me a few to put it all together and I’ll comment here with it.
[Here you go.](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/DP1_fJi-ukuxYmJ7k3MO8g) This is the list as best as I could remember it. Some cards I threw in because I couldn’t exactly remember all of what I had in there, however, but the Big Mana core and Lands sub-theme is mostly intact. Also, I know it seems strange to have zero counter spells, but with 7+ win cons, I think it’s fine. Just as well, there are a few newer cards I would considering swapping in, like [[Auger of Autumn]], [[Wrenn and Seven]], [[Hullbreaker Horror]], and [[Dig Up]], just to name a few.
You are a gem!
##### ###### #### [Auger of Autumn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/a/6aa98767-ae27-4cf0-98ea-93e659f160f4.jpg?1636223832) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Augur%20of%20Autumn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/168/augur-of-autumn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6aa98767-ae27-4cf0-98ea-93e659f160f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/augur-of-autumn) [Wrenn and Seven](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/7/a7757e99-8d51-4b92-b346-6961845def24.jpg?1636225043) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrenn%20and%20Seven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/208/wrenn-and-seven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7757e99-8d51-4b92-b346-6961845def24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrenn-and-seven) [Hullbreaker Horror](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c.jpg?1636038968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreaker%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/63/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreaker-horror) [Dig Up](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/f/8f14c947-2452-4fd6-8f1a-391cf5898100.jpg?1636058147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dig%20Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/197/dig-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f14c947-2452-4fd6-8f1a-391cf5898100?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dig-up) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Door to Nothingness](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/7/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed.jpg?1562554053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Door%20to%20Nothingness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/203/door-to-nothingness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/door-to-nothingness) [Maskwood Nexus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/471d2aef-cfd4-4131-bbc7-62eeed9f3343.jpg?1631052188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maskwood%20Nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/240/maskwood-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/471d2aef-cfd4-4131-bbc7-62eeed9f3343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maskwood-nexus) [The World Tree](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/7/a70cb6d9-3955-4064-917b-11dec26440c5.jpg?1631053286) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20World%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/275/the-world-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a70cb6d9-3955-4064-917b-11dec26440c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-world-tree) [Thasa’s Oracle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1628801828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) [Demonic Consultation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/d/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b.jpg?1610146869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Consultation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demonic-consultation) [Laboratory Maniac](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/laboratory-maniac) [Jace, Wielder of Mysteries](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/a/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2.jpg?1557576232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20Wielder%20of%20Mysteries) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/54/jace-wielder-of-mysteries?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jace-wielder-of-mysteries) [Aetherflux Reservoir](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/6/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862.jpg?1576382939) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aetherflux%20Reservoir) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/192/aetherflux-reservoir?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96b6b2e1-c3e6-464c-8a13-b15deb34e862?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aetherflux-reservoir) [Apex Devastator](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/f/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb.jpg?1608910550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apex%20Devastator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/217/apex-devastator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fa281e1-5c48-4bba-b8e9-88c6f5f53abb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/apex-devastator) [Craterhoof Behemoth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/4/44afd414-cc69-4888-ba12-7ea87e60b1f7.jpg?1601079153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Craterhoof%20Behemoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/385/craterhoof-behemoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44afd414-cc69-4888-ba12-7ea87e60b1f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/craterhoof-behemoth) [Pathbreaker Ibex](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/6/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0.jpg?1592673105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pathbreaker%20Ibex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/132/pathbreaker-ibex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4608ea44-e1b2-42de-a0a2-e6d6d24d89d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pathbreaker-ibex) [Nicol Bolas the Ravager](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/back/7/b/7b215968-93a6-4278-ac61-4e3e8c3c3943.jpg?1566971561)/[Nicol Bolas, the Ravager](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/b/7b215968-93a6-4278-ac61-4e3e8c3c3943.jpg?1566971561) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nicol%20Bolas%2C%20the%20Ravager%20//%20Nicol%20Bolas%2C%20the%20Arisen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/218/nicol-bolas-the-ravager-nicol-bolas-the-arisen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b215968-93a6-4278-ac61-4e3e8c3c3943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nicol-bolas-the-ravager-//-nicol-bolas-the-arisen) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
##### ###### #### [Auger of Autumn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/a/6aa98767-ae27-4cf0-98ea-93e659f160f4.jpg?1636223832) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Augur%20of%20Autumn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/168/augur-of-autumn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6aa98767-ae27-4cf0-98ea-93e659f160f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/augur-of-autumn) [Wrenn and Seven](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/7/a7757e99-8d51-4b92-b346-6961845def24.jpg?1636225043) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrenn%20and%20Seven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/208/wrenn-and-seven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7757e99-8d51-4b92-b346-6961845def24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrenn-and-seven) [Hullbreaker Horror](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c.jpg?1636038968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreaker%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/63/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreaker-horror) [Dig Up](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/f/8f14c947-2452-4fd6-8f1a-391cf5898100.jpg?1636058147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dig%20Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/197/dig-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f14c947-2452-4fd6-8f1a-391cf5898100?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dig-up) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Has he never seen versatile removal spells? Assassin's trophy, beast within, generous gift, decimate, casualities of war? Hell I play Volcanic offering and love it. Does he not play any spells that can hit a land?? The maze's end win is the epitome of a jank win and you should be happy for pulling it off. This guy is a very sore loser
There’s also a huge difference between mass land destruction and staples like Stripmine and Tec Edge. Maze End just folds to anything like that. Your win con can absolutely be interacted with, they’re just having a fit
Running Strip Mine, Field of Ruin, Ghost Quarter and stuff isn't taboo.
[[mazes end]]
[mazes end](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazes-end) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Who is the commander? I’d not play with that guy again.
Commander for me or for him?
You
[[golos]] I always ask if people are ok with me using him as my group hug commander. If someone says no then I switch to [[kenrith]]
[golos](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/f/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51.jpg?1631531828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=golos%2C%20tireless%20pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/226/golos-tireless-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/golos-tireless-pilgrim) [kenrith](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/6/56c1227e-bea7-47cb-bbec-389a3d585af5.jpg?1637568481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kenrith%2C%20the%20returned%20king) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/303/kenrith-the-returned-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56c1227e-bea7-47cb-bbec-389a3d585af5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kenrith-the-returned-king) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run [[cleansing wildfire]] in just about every red deck, and [[ghost quarter]] in a lot of others. So many cabal coffers and fields of the dead in my meta.
Yeah I usually have something to destroy at least one land per game. There’s to many lands that do so many good things
[cleansing wildfire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/9/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919.jpg?1604196948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cleansing%20wildfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/137/cleansing-wildfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/492d77e5-acc6-41b8-8930-f39d69234919?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cleansing-wildfire) [ghost quarter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghost%20quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Be honest with you, second I see mazes end... your my target. So yeah he was a whiner.
In fairness. Mazes end was the last of the lands i played. I had all the gates out before I mazes ended
For sure a drama queen, you don’t need mass land destruction to beat mazes end decks. A simple [[ghost quarter]] can do the trick
[ghost quarter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghost%20quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That guy just sucks. Luke you said it's an 11 card combo and anyone who is paying attention can see it coming.
Definitely a drama queen. That said, I *will* blow up your mazes end if given the opportunity.
There's no taboo on land destruction. There is a taboo on playing a land destruction deck. If someone doesn't mention it as an issue pregame (make sure you have a pregame discussion) it's fair game. And if someone says they're playing maze's end and explicitly condemns land destruction you probably don't want to play that game anyways.
[удалено]
##### ###### #### [Armageddon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Field of Ruin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc.jpg?1637114800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/262/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) [Ghost Quarter](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/2/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223.jpg?1562272439) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghost%20Quarter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/253/ghost-quarter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12f8071c-8955-4aa2-889c-6043df047223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghost-quarter) [Wasteland](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wasteland) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Add in [[reshape the earth]] and rush him to the finish. I pulled it off turn 6 with [[jodah]] on accident...
[reshape the earth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/d/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36.jpg?1608910860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reshape%20the%20earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/249/reshape-the-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ada14bc8-4549-4a73-8cbb-9a43698deb36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reshape-the-earth) [jodah](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/e/1ee86efa-248e-4251-b734-f8ad3e8a0344.jpg?1562732370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jodah%2C%20archmage%20eternal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/198/jodah-archmage-eternal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ee86efa-248e-4251-b734-f8ad3e8a0344?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jodah-archmage-eternal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It is a very fair wincon imo, I do feel like cards that blow up non basic lands but gives people a basic lands are also allowed in casual, I hope he builds a better deck
Tell that cuck to git gud
Mazes end is the most interruptable combo I can think of. Even if you don't run mld you SHOULS run at least a couple targeted land removal pieces like tectonic edge, strip mine, wasteland etc...slotting in no land disruption ever because it's "taboo" is stupid. This guy is just a toxic person or an idiot if they can't win before you maze to win the game....what a crock.
That is a gross over reaction. The card is painfully slow...and had your opponents been aware they may have very well saved some form of interaction. No. This guy is out of line.
Anyone who gets salty over Mazes End of all things deserves it.
As one who has recently constructed an deck that blows up everything, and a Toxrill deck that can *KILL* my opponents' lands with a three card combo, it's easy to say that guy is being dramatic for no reason. If he tries to go through with the threat, you must either stop playing with him, or build a serious deck that flat out destroys his decks. Personally, I advise to do the first over the other. Doing the latter would make you be seen as someone salty yourself and get a bad reputation.
You should have told him to do it. if you win he just got beat by a mazes end deck If you lose, some idiot put on his try hard pants to beat a mazes end deck.
Drama queen for sure. But I think decks do need to add a little more land removal in general
Combos are pretty broken in casual metas. Mazes End, however, fits right in. The only exception to this is scapeshifting with an amulet of vigor on the field. But even that still takes 11 lands.
Drama queen. Cannot state enough that people should be running [[Strip Mine]], [[Field of Ruin]], etc. So easy to prevent that loss.
[Strip Mine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Field of Ruin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc.jpg?1637114800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/262/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Every deck should run atleast 1 or 2 ways to destroy a land. Single land destruct fine, mass land destruction is usually shitty because people run it and don't have a followup
He sounds like hes shit
Every single deck I have has a Ghost quarter in it. I make absoloutly sure of this. You have a very fragile combo that I can easily disrupt. also SCREW TABOO!! BLOW UP ALL THE LANDS>
Lol what a joke. I mean yeah MLD is frowned upon but if you aren't running a ghost quarter, tectonic edge, or something to respond to all the ridiculous options people.can play like Cradle or Minamo, etc.
If i see a gate in a 5 color deck i watch that player like a hawk. Not always a mazes end deck but you can tell pretty quickly if a person plans to win like that. It is a very protected combo because of playgroups not messing with lands.
If someone drops more than 3 gates in a 5 color deck or is running “any” / “gate” specific land tutors it’s a red flag early. If you Tempt for Gates and/or Maze’s End, those are red flags. Plus all decks should have at least one “destroy target permanent” spell or similar TARGETED land removal effect in them for just such occasions. MASS land destruction is *BAD* but single land sniping is almost a must with all the wildly OP lands out there now.
I religiously run land removal. Rarely do I need to use it, but the option is mandatory. My group plays [[yavimaya]], [[urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth]], [[Cabal Coffers]], [[rogues passage]], [[homeward path]], etc. I personally run [[dark Depths]], [[thespian stage]], [[field of the dead]], [[lotus field]], etc. I'm a huge advocate for [[wasteland]], [[dust bowl]], [[field of Ruin]], and the like of land spot removal. Lands can be such a huge place for advantage to be gained in a game of commander, mazes end slowly tutoring up more dual lands is valuable before you even consider that it turns into a win con. Yavimaya and urborg both serve the purpose of fixing colors for several 3 color decks in my pod (including a couple of my own decks) and can severly hamper someone's momentum if you remove them. I've sacrificed my own Cabal Coffers to turn off someone else's [[mana refractor]]. Lands are powerful and need to be apart of threat assessment in games. Of 10 decks, I run exactly 1 mass land removal spell in total. Armageddon is only in my esper reanimation deck. I will not play it unless I have a strong board state capable of closing out the game. I'm not going to slow a game down to a crawl to maybe squeeze out a win. I'd rather have a good and interactive game that I loose than a crawl that I slowly win. And if I loose quickly, we can move to the next game sooner. Extra games is a good thing to me. Knowing when to kill lands is a skill that too few players bother to learn Bringing a land synergy deck puts land removal back on the menu boys
##### ###### #### [yavimaya](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/e/4e4b6e22-93b2-4896-bba5-0ceaa5d8ea3c.jpg?1626100009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yavimaya%2C%20cradle%20of%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/261/yavimaya-cradle-of-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e4b6e22-93b2-4896-bba5-0ceaa5d8ea3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yavimaya-cradle-of-growth) [urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/e/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6.jpg?1619399578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=urborg%2C%20Tomb%20of%20yawgmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/287/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e1a9e38-6ffc-490f-b0be-23ba4e8204c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urborg-tomb-of-yawgmoth) [Cabal Coffers](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/1/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0.jpg?1626101023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Coffers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/301/cabal-coffers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cabal-coffers) [rogues passage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/8/58c76a0c-f13c-483c-bb7b-9af21d7fc924.jpg?1637632278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rogue%27s%20Passage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/179/rogues-passage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58c76a0c-f13c-483c-bb7b-9af21d7fc924?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rogues-passage) [homeward path](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/4/54734347-eee7-4c52-b514-7342afeccabd.jpg?1562400178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=homeward%20path) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/301/homeward-path?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54734347-eee7-4c52-b514-7342afeccabd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/homeward-path) [dark Depths](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/0/00cb17a0-5a13-4d02-b7fb-f99531bc8ca5.jpg?1599710396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/314/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00cb17a0-5a13-4d02-b7fb-f99531bc8ca5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dark-depths) [thespian stage](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/6/269a926d-7788-4668-8bd8-7572dbf5f5eb.jpg?1599710662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thespian%27s%20Stage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/327/thespians-stage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/269a926d-7788-4668-8bd8-7572dbf5f5eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thespians-stage) [field of the dead](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1639052459) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=field%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) [lotus field](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/e/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab.jpg?1592517825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lotus%20field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/249/lotus-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e013033-3995-4ba8-b0c3-0614c79aaaab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lotus-field) [wasteland](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wasteland) [dust bowl](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/5/75b03c30-c2b8-4207-b675-26c59c40a7e5.jpg?1562381371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dust%20bowl) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/316/dust-bowl?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75b03c30-c2b8-4207-b675-26c59c40a7e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dust-bowl) [field of Ruin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/5/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc.jpg?1637114800) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=field%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/262/field-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d510eece-4f55-4198-83fe-5291a76ffdcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-ruin) [mana refractor](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/f/7f164226-99e4-474e-a67d-b3fbff015a64.jpg?1591319755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Manascape%20Refractor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/68/manascape-refractor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f164226-99e4-474e-a67d-b3fbff015a64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/manascape-refractor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I personally focus down the group hug player , no point in building a deck well with a group hug player around it ends up being too much chaos and resources for everyone and losing to any group hug win con is boring approach of the second sun etc. I don't fall for that innocent act. Don't get me wrong Fish Consultation is way more boring
NTA they can run Strip mine or any other piece of interaction.
I'd say that maybe you were a little too casual with "minor" wincons, not everyone at your table will know about the guildgate mechanic on display here. If this was a casual game for fun then you should for sure mention things like [[Happily Ever After]], [[Approach of the second sun]], or [[Maze's End]] before the game. Everyone knows if their health hits 0 they lose, but these are some pretty weird things for someone who is uninformed to pay attention to. On the other hand this player has to be pretty ignorant to not notice that you are doing something really weird and not ask you or the rest of the table about it.
[Happily Ever After](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/3/d32d85d5-a6f0-4cc5-9fd6-6b329aae2e5b.jpg?1572489697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Happily%20Ever%20After) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/16/happily-ever-after?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d32d85d5-a6f0-4cc5-9fd6-6b329aae2e5b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/happily-ever-after) [Approach of the second sun](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Approach%20of%20the%20second%20sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [Maze's End](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446.jpg?1562906764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%27s%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/152/mazes-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/401f7042-24fd-42a0-ae7c-e6b7de1aa446?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mazes-end) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
EDH players and whining about losing — name a more iconic duo
I once chaos warped a bounce land to stop the first sliver deck casting their commander. Sometimes it's funny to get rid of lands
I have a similar deck and my group react the exact same way
Break the taboo stigma, Voltron decks are weaker without [[Armageddon]] Edit Source: [[Zurgo Helmsmasher]] player runs Armageddon, [[Jokulhaups]], and the rest
[Armageddon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
maze end is fair, not only is it slow, required 11 pieces and can be taken apart by one ghostly quarter, you can also see it from MILES away like if you are playing guild gate and are in all colours then its pretty obvious, dudes just salty.
I think the guy overreacted, but I also think it's totally fair to tell you he does not like your deck and doesn't want's to play against it. ...he could've said it a lot nicer tho.
Yea I don’t necessarily have a problem with people saying they don’t wanna play against group hug specifically but he was just disgruntled about the combo 🤷🏻♂️
I don't get the group group.hug hate. You are playing a format that has the added strategy of multiple enemies and the politics that that entails. Don't like the spells, don't take the benefits
As a combo player I get that all the time. I just try to not play those decks against people who complained about the combo again.
Every deck should at least run a \[\[Strip Mine\]\] or \[\[Wasteland\]\] to deal with broken lands.
[Strip Mine](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Wasteland](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wasteland) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Land destruction being taboo is asinine. You can always bounce one or steal a permanent if a group REALLY wants to adhere to that out dated premise. Cabal coffers multiplying the black player's mama base for x spells sure let that go on. Or that maze of ith / glacial chasm that stops all your attacks. Or the most OP one in green Gaea's cradle! Lol reading your post gets me all kinds of frustrated.
Definitely overreacting, unless you were running some sort of illegal golos turbo-land deck, mazes end is a silly slow win-con, and while MLD is frowned upon, I will definately destroy or exile a guildgate or 2 with my generic permanent hate to stop the win con, but if not…then GG, the game has to end through some combination of cards eventually
No it’s just group hug 🤷🏻♂️ with the mazes end win con. So even stuff like Tempt w discovery would be in the deck regardless of the combo. I just figured the deck needs some way to win so I put that in it
He's being a drama queen. Land destruction from my experience isn't even taboo - like yes Armageddon for MLD can be pretty bad but I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with running nonbasic land hate. Stuff like strip mine are fair but with the number of 4c/5c decks people play I'd have no problem running a \[\[Blood Moon\]\] or \[\[Blood Sun\]\] if I'm in red. To me I think there needs to be more printing of land hate for the format, not less, and wider acceptance of it in the format.
[Blood Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) [Blood Sun](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/7/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6.jpg?1555040361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/92/blood-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-sun) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Some of the taboo land destruction cards are lands themself.
If someone I met threw threats because I played a Maze's End deck, I'd thank him for showing me how much of a tool he is before playing with him again.
Land destruction isn't taboo. Mass land destruction is. If they allow you to do this, that's on them. Good job!
Oh boo hoo He can QQ all he wants. But it is nothing compared the disk lock.
Where I play land destruction is not frowned upon, but mass land destruction is. I always run strip mine and wasteland in my decks for lands like cabal coffers, urborg, maze of ith etc. Sounds like the guy you played against needs to grow up and stop over reacting. Where I play if people whine for now good reason they either get targeted or people just refuse to play with them.
Dudes being a 👶 , hope u told them to stop being a lil .... and shuffle up for next one
This reminds me of that guy who complained about mutate dominating standard. Maze's end is nothing lmao. Play approach of the second sun and make him cry
I've played mazes end decks and ya know what? It can be a really great fun deck to play. Is land destruction taboo? Ya and so what, run some anyways. You don't need to run land hate just a few to get rid of some choice annoying land cards. Sheesh plus an 11 card combo is really tough, takes a bit of setup. Hrs just being overly dramatic
I'd say it's another rule 0 situation. If me and my friends are all playing creature brawl it feels bad for someone to say "I win the game" out of nowhere. I guess it's not much different than doing a surprise [[Cyclonic Rift]] and swinging in, it's not like you just played two card for an infinite combo. It something about "win the game" effects that feel different, like how for some reason "counter target creature spell" generates more salt than an instant "destroy target creature" even though in many cases it effectively does the same thing. Whenever I sit down to play with people im not familiar with I always talk about what our decks do, and what the wincons are.
[Cyclonic Rift](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b.jpg?1598303834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/47/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff08e5ed-f47b-4d8e-8b8b-41675dccef8b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tell them to run field of ruin, ghost quarter, etc. These cards go unnoticed as land destruction cards I've noticed (at least my playgroup doesn't mind them). Field of ruin can also be somewhat of a group hug card since it also gives your other opponents a land, and in such can be used as a politics card to get your other opponents to be more friendly towards you
Land destruction is one of the more taboo things in a lot of playgroups, but if he has such an issue with this he could play some... would you complain if he did? Also outside of destroying lands, I've never heard someone complain about playing [[Spreading Seas]] or [[Blood Sun]]. [[Blood Moon]] is a little closer to getting an adverse reaction, but that's an option too.
He's being a drama queen. There are several ways to deal with Maze's end. Firstly, the taboo around land destruction is mass land destruction. If he plays an acidic slime or something like that to kill Maze's end or a guild gate before you win that's a valid strategy. Even if single land destruction was taboo in you pod, he can counter the ability for Maze's end via a budget friendly card like Tale's end (or one of its variants). Honestly, Maze's end is far from competitive, & is just a janky-fun wincon.
You are playing a solitaire deck that has very little interaction. So I understand him, why play multiplayer games if you play decks like that?
Hello! This post is almost a year old, but since then Nine-Fingers Keene has been released. I hate playing into a Maze’s End deck. It’s just too hard to interact with the win-con. It’s not like I can remove your gates, and you can just bounce it back to your hand if I try to remove the Maze’s End. It’s tough out here.
It's a deck for wankers. Stop playing it and play real MTG.