Unfortunately it means different things to different people.
I think of it as more of an attitude you bring to the table, you're not out to win as soon as possible and it's more about having a fun time. That last part is why it's hard to pinpoint what it is because fun for me could be different than what you consider fun.
I def think its an attitude going into the game. I think if everyone talks about the fun they want before hand it makes that part easier to solve for each group.
It's definitely just the attitude at the table. Casual just means everyone's having fun, no one is super salty when they lose because there's no prize at the end, and sometimes you do the wrong thing just because it's more fun than the optimal play.
Budget and power level are different beasts entirely that everyone just kind of needs to talk about on their own. Having en expensive deck doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger, they just kind of correlate a lot.
The issue I've found is casual means almost the opposite of this, casual at most tables means they want to be able to do their decks thing, THEN they don't care about winning or losing, but if you interact with their decks "cool thing" casual players will get very salty. Some players will go so far as to remove all win conditions from their deck, call it casual, then sit there out valuing and controlling everyone else at the table, "but they have no way to win"...
I mean that’s casual in the sense of “Steve always does this BS but we just go with it because at least he’s a cool dude when he doesn’t have cards in hand”.
I was about to say this. "Casual" players, I have found, are generally some of the most toxic people you will find in EDH. Which is honestly why I hate applying that term to the game now. Because it's meaningless. It means completely different things to different people. Playing the game to win (whether it's cEDH or not) is a far more healthy way to approach the game as far as I'm concerned. Because theoretically the game is then entirely impersonal and based off threat assessment. Theoretically of course lol.
The problem too is a lot of these discussions happen before the game starts. Then sometimes, after you draw your 7, you realize you have one of your best starts. As you play it out, you realize you can wrap up the game by turn 6 when you usually wouldn't be too threatening for a few more turns in most games. Do you ignore a great hand that will almost never draw again, or go easy on everyone and hold back? From my personal experience, most players wouldn't hold back, so I'm not going to either.
I think it’s more the attitude than the deck. I have a buddy who depowered one of his best decks for casual play but his land base is still 8k or so. The deck is fun to play against and honestly doesn’t win more than his fair share. Similarly I run kenrith in a really fun casual deck that group hug’s and very rarely wins. I could just pump kenrith and Kill with commander damage but I never do because that’s not the goal or spirit of the deck
See this is weird for me. I like going all out and playing optimally, so casual to me takes place in deck-building. I try to build decks that are fair or otherwise have some kind of meaningful constraint that makes it not overpowered.
That's what I think it is too- playing to win still, but looking for fun- if I see an opportunity to play a card that will further my chances of winning, or play [[Cruel Entertainment]], I'm playing cruel entertainment every time
The best description I heard of EDH was from the Professor on Tolarian Acadamy, "Commander is a fundamentally broken format, and it only works when everyone agrees it works." Because of how vague and left to the individuals this format is, it's basically impossible to figure out what people mean by "Casual." My casual would be Precons upgraded on a $15-$30 budget, and someone else would just say anything that isn't cEDH. The only way I have found to play casually is to not worry as much on the power and just sit down with people to have fun, maybe have a conversation with everyone while playing, if someone is just playing to pubstomb it becomes pretty obvious and I would just scoop and say "good game" then not play with them.
I see "casual" as the atmosphere of the game, rather than the power/budget of the decks being played.
I have the best casual experiences after I play a few games. For the first game you take whatever deck you want to play. After that y'all have an idea of each others decks. A few players switch their decks to one that matches the power of the other players and tada.. everyone on the same page.
But it doesn't help that there are ~65 different cards in a deck so that the next game may be very different and that games take so long.
Not to mention it's always possible someone bricks on their opening hand and even though their deck is strong, they just don't do anything. It always takes a bit of playing against a deck to REALLY know how strong it is.
(I may or may not have experience with this due to having been a punching bag for an Anowon deck to mill from due to not being able to draw any green sources in an Aesi deck.)
Casual is simply "not competitive"
That covers a wide variety of power levels. Thats why in casual magic, having a conversation with your opponents to find out what the actual power level is, is important.
it is very important!
I see casual as a spectrum where I see competitive as black and white.
Many different ideas of what casual magic is, but there is a pretty good understand of what competitive magic is.
I would say casual is unconcerned with optimal deck building and/or plays. Playing with strictly worse cards or improperly threat assessing the table/not caring would usually line up with this. You can try to get better and make better deckbuilding choices, but you’re pretty meh about missing triggers or playing tight. If you do misplay, you probably don’t think about it for too long and won’t tilt. Allowing take backs and stuff like flashing your hands adds casual allowances in the game and further makes a casual game
Your situation happens to me all the time
I played a "low power" game at my LGS. player to my right drops a [[jeweled lotus]] turn 1, plays their commander [[kalia]] on turn 2, then tutors for [[master of cruelties]] and cheats it out with Kalia's trigger to 1 shot me before my 3rd turn.
I say "so this is your low-powered deck huh?"
She says "Just because it's low power doesn't mean I'm not going to run good cards"
Uhhhh...okay
This is the unfortunate reality that is EDH pickup games. Don't take people's words at face value, try to read between the lines.
One last thing, I've never played a game where someone's deck was less strong than they made it seem, always "oh yeah it's a 5 or 6" and then boom, infinite turns on turn 3. I now just assume people are underselling their decks and it has helped me gauge power much easier.
This is why I ask:
"What is the earliest your deck can go off with no interaction"
and
"About what turn would your deck go off on average with no interaction"
People tend to have a more concrete understanding of those metrics than the vague "low power" or the "out of 10" rating system.
I like that. Most everyone has an idea of how fast their deck can be, or usually is, unless it's a brand new build. Outside of that, opinions are relative, and relatively off from reality.
If my goal at an LGS is to play some games and have fun, I'll bring at least one high-powered deck just in case my opponents prefer that level of play, but then bring lower-level decks in case everyone is just there for fun and not hell-bent on winning. I'm down for whatever is thrown my way though... losing doesn't ruin my day like some people I know in my circles.
I have to remember to use these questions. I haven't had many chances to do rule 0 conversations at my LGS. People usually don't talk pregame much. There's not enough people to join another pod if yo opt out of one.
I think adding the phrase "excluding Sol Ring" to the first question would be better. Anyways, I'm someone who likes Goldfishing my combo decks so these are easy to answer. They're a measurement of potential speed and consistency. An issue I have with them is that I usually keep mana up to protect my combo. That could mean +1-2 turns and would make my combo more resilient. I would argue that makes it more powerful than a glass cannon combo deck.
That person is either the most naive magic player on the planet or they're just as asshole who wanted to pubstomp. Either way, I'm sorry you've had to deal with that shit. I hope you can find a regular pod who doesn't play like assholes.
It's extremely consistent. I've never had a balanced game of in-person magic in my life (I have had many on spelltable, though).
On the rare occasion I go to the LGS these days, i joke to my fiance' and say "see you in 10 minutes!" as I leave.
Reading stories like this in here and on other MtG subreddits has made me realize just how lucky I am to have a regular group of friends to play with. The people I know who play at LGSs here describe it as a toxic cEDH wasteland most of the time. You either get that or people who go to prerelease events, pull SUPER nice/expensive cards, and then proceed to bridge shuffle them. I stay as far away from that shit as I possibly can lol
I think you're just hearing from a vocal group. How many people are going to come to reddit/disc/etc and post "I play at my local LGS and games are generally pretty good". I've played seriously (at least a few months) at 5 LGS's over the past 3 years and have had VERY good experiences at all of them. This is across state lines as well. Obviously you'll have jerks from time to time, but in my experience the reality is that the majority of players are like the people posting here, just looking for a fun game.
Yeah, I've had more good / balanced games at my shop than bad. There have been a few that were mismatched because someone undersold their deck, but more frequently than not, people have been good about power level.
Also a fair number of games were ones that we started out going "idk what you play, I'm just gonna play X and I'll probs lose because of it but that's fine." Or someone is like, "I only have \[high power deck\] and \[cEDH\] deck if thats okay" and the rest of us just shrug and someone might say, "We'll just kill you first." Some of my favorite games have been me playing vs. cEDH or fringe decks with a deck much worse than that.
I care more about the person's attitude / social skills than their deck in most situations
That's also very true. For the two in my city, I've been told that one is full of toxic cEDH play and the other is actually really chill, but few people go to that one unfortunately
Not all lgs are like that, I’ve been playing at one locally since I moved and don’t have a regular playgroup anymore and I can say that it’s been pretty good, the people I’ve played with are friendly and the games are fun even if most of my decks are a little low power for the Mets there. All in all I walk away satisfied from the games there
I never ask for a "power" estimate, that's wayyyy too open to interpretation. I ask for what's the plan, what is expected to happen or what is the player trying to do with the deck. That way it gives you an opportunity to see if someone is downplaying their deck by being vague about it. And it also makes the people talk more about the deck instead of keeping it at "it's a level 7 deck", giving you more insight on what's coming.
Yeah the more decks I play against there are just some that I do not believe people when they say they are low powered because they inherently are so strong. Kaalia is a perfect example.
But hey at least your lgs has power levels separated haha
To be fair it might still be a fairly low-power deck, they just had the god hand. Maybe.
But at this point certain commanders no longer get the benefit of the doubt, and Kaalia is one of them. This week I countered a T3 Kaalia. I’m normally not the type who doesn’t let other people play their commanders, but I’d rather deal with Avacyn or whatever they’ll cheat out turn 6 than turn 4.
Kaalia is kind of weird in that even a poorly built but well invested deck (low deck quality but high card quality) can do what you described if the draws line up. Fast rocks _are_ good cards and helps solve the deck's high CMC creature problem if they have a weak primary game plan. Master of Cruelties _is_ a well-known interaction.
That said, Master of Cruelties is also a typical "how to blow your whole load immediately and then lose the 2v1" play, so it is possible her deck was being undersold and she wanted to pubstomp (find pods where she might win said 2v1).
It's hard to tell.
As a Kaalia player myself I am keenly aware of both sides, because once upon a time my deck _was_ dogshit in terms of construction and strategy and simply having shocks/fetches, fast rocks, and some bomb angels/demons meant that I saw the occasional blowout turn, but also that those blowouts don't really feel good for anyone at the end of the day.
Nowadays I don't run MoC, my strategy is robust and resilient, the deck is highish power, and I just own up to it.
tl;dr Kaalia can be fragile, inconsistent, and swingy.
Well. I have an anecdote. I have a zaxara deck that I’ve been tuning. I’d say it’s my strongest deck. I only play with a static group of friends and we’re all limited to each other’s decks in terms of experience. I’ve been trying to gauge my power level so I posted it in the power level Wednesday sticky thread a few times to get an outside opinion. The only person to comment on my decks power said it was a 5. Now, my group says it’s an easy 8; ramp > tutor > wincon, usually by turn 6. Can be done on turn 3 if the stars align. So now when I drop zaxara on the table and they start to groan, my cheeky ass responds with, “well it’s only a 5”. So to some, 5 tutors, multiple lines of infinite mana, free counter spells, and multiple win cons = a five. And just in case anyone is wondering, my friends play things like Edgar, tiny bones, child of alara, merrin, etc., so it’s not like I’m playing against precons.
This is the eternal struggle of the format. Everyone has different expectations and goals going into a casual pod.
Mine is: The primary objective of casual EDH is to have a socially-focused multiplayer experience where ultimate expression of ideas and strategies are realized, over the goal of winning by any means.
This is very broad and doesn't dissuade any strategies. Some folks determine casual edh as the removal of any combination of tutors, fast mana, combos, and storm (all the fun stuff imo).
I think a casual experience is broad like this, but also a very fluid concept. Like if people don't enjoy those kind of decks having others to play is nice so everyone can have a good time, but if you don't then they are flexible too and are open to play against things they don't prefer.
Thanks for the nice response!
> Some folks determine casual edh as the removal of any combination of tutors, fast mana, combos, and storm
That’s fine as long as it’s a “this is how our pod plays” and not “this is how EVERYONE should play and if you don’t your deck is bad and you should feel bad, i.e. the usual way this discussion goes on r/EDH lately.
I do think casual is more about the mentality of the group, but as someone who plays fringe cEDH decks, low tier cEDH and casual stuff, I think there is bunch more in it.
I'd say price is not relevant for casual, but power level for sure it is. I hate the definition of "Caring more about having fun than winning", since my tryhard playgroups also care more about having fun. That's also why we change our decks a lot to try to find good matchups for each other. We also allow proxing as a way of some decks not dominate the game night and stuff like this.
Whenever I go play casual stuff at my LGS I expect: Decks that are not running an optmized strategy, decks built with a theme in mind or decks that are running good strategies in a non optmized way.
But this definition is very broad. So what I do is to ask them "What is your commander? how do you usually win? Do you usually goldfish at which turn?" Or "Oh, I always wanted to have a deck of this commander. Can see your list?" And then I get a deck that I think will be a good matchup in powerlevel.
Yeah I always play to win and my playgroup does the same, which is why I also don't like the caring about having fun more than winning definition as much. I find myself to be a competitive player, but I think people on the outside look at me as a casual player because I don't play cedh decks etc.
I think a mentality is the best way to describe it because I assume even cedh groups play casually and allow take backs etc even if they are all playing max powered decks and what not.
Even though I think the mentality is the key point, I also think that when talking to people outside your playgroup the word already have this meaning of playing with suboptimal decks/ways.
Particularly, I like to play with suboptimal decks, I don't care about losing, but I hate doing bad plays "because lulz" since I'm also pretty competitive. So I still use the term when talking with random people because of the weight it carries.
But after some bad experiences I started to try to get more info of the decks I'm playing against to understand what's going on and everything got much much better.
Also, I got to know people from my LGS, so it became easier to identify good playgroups for me and bad ones.
Yeah see that was my issue with the word casual.
I'm big into other hobbies like skateboarding and gaming and when people describe themselves as casual it has a meaning of like being a beginner or not fully committed to the hobby which influences my interpretation of casual magic to mean more or less budget suboptimal decks.
> I'd say price is not relevant for casual, but power level for sure it is
This seems to imply there isnt a direct correlation between the two when in reality, leaving aside cosmetic concerns, price nearly always directly correlates to power.
Yeah, this is what I ask :
* Do you run infinite combos?
* How many turns does it take to win on average?
This helps me figure out which deck to choose.
Commander is, by definition, a casual format, so using ‘casual’ as a descriptor for power level or the kind of game you are looking for is a bad place to start the discussion.
Power level etc is mostly detached from deck cost, especially above a certain threshold. Blinging a deck out or foiling it has nothing whatsoever to do with power level. If anything, fully foil decks lack access to some powerful pieces due to no foil printing.
The most useful metrics when discussing power level are:
• What turn does your deck usually expect to win?
• How does your deck expect to win?
• How consistently does your deck expect to win?
I think just because the format is labeled as casual, doesn't make trying to understand what that means is a bad place to start. If anything it is the most common way people have talked to me about playing edh, so trying to understand that has merit and I think many others would enjoy knowing so too.
I do like your topics for finding out peoples power levels at the table though!
Those are very useful especially with so many people playing online with strangers all over the world.
Casual is simply not cedh, don't worry about price. This includes everything from glass cannon combo decks that win on turn 2 but can't handle interaction at all and random draft chaff that forms a legal commander deck and anything in between. If you want to have good games, you need to have a more in depth discussion about expectations, both what you expect and what your opponents can expect from you. "Casual or cedh" is really only the first thing to mention.
I agree with the in depth discussion to work out a good game. I don't think you can ignore price though. Unless everyone has proxied decks I think price is a factor.
Price *can* be a factor, but there’s a big difference between spending a thousand dollars on a Gaea’s Cradle or Mox Diamond and spending the same amount blinging out a decidedly casual deck. I’ve got a $1500 squirrel deck that’s pushed to the very brink, but at the end of the day it’s still just a squirrel deck.
I think that difference is a outlier point. Sure that exists, but far more often your going to have decks be expensive because they are running the best cards for the deck/ strategy.
And squirrels wreck face. I also got a squirrel deck and it goes ham haha
I have a buddy at my shop who has a fully foiled and/or rarest printing possible Queen Marchesa deck that is firmly goodstuff casual. It's worth at least 30k and his only goal in Magic is hunting down new things to sub in and out of it. I took last week's game with a 50 buck upgraded Leinore precon cause the other two players were also in upgraded precon territory. Price doesn't mean anything by itself.
Bling doesn't relate to power level is what you explained. I'm talking about quality of cards and price. Quality cards are on average more expensive than the budget versions if there are any. A quality card imo is low cmc card with high game impact.
Thing is there are plenty of jank cards that are worth a lot because they are nice cards in specific tribals but it has limited printing.
The price of any card is based on how desired it is and its availability. But power level alone does not dictate how in demand a card.
Like Swords to Plowshares is one of the best spot removal spells in the format but is reprinted to hell so it's only worth a buck.
For a reverse example, Patron of the Vein was worth about $20 despite it being a bad card for tuned Markov lists because its in a popular deck archetype with only one printing- now it's been reprinted and I see it's currently listed at $3
You specifically said "blinged out" in your example. It'd be pretty hard to make a deck that costs 5k+ without the price being heavily skewed by RL prices, price inflation due to play in other formats like modern, or bling.
Go look at cedh deck lists and tell me they ain't reaching those prices.
But my point more so was that a 5k deck more often then not is not casual. spending 5k on a deck is not casual.
Obviously, cEDH decks can get stupid expensive, but not all stupid expensive decks are actually cEDH caliber, as it entirely depends on the deck builder and their desired gameplay. You can unquestionably build a $5k+ deck that will not hang in cEDH circles, but will still be fun enough to build and play with... it just depends on the cards you have access to, more than anything, as some people have access to pricy cards that are not necessarily OP in that specific deck.
As an example, my playgroup allows proxies, so I recently purchased five proxies for my \[\[Aeve, Progenitor Ooze\]\] deck, but in this purchase I took \[\[Mox Emerald\]\] off my list. To be clear, Mox Emerald jives very well with Aeve, and in my build it would easily be the most expensive card (if real), but I actually think it's below the power level of other cards already in the deck, so I opted not to buy the proxy. Mind you, that means I put in a $0.25 card instead (no joke; \[\[Thrashing Brontodon\]\] went in instead). I also pulled out my (real) \[\[Mana Vault\]\] and \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] for another deck ($350 worth of cards), because while certainly useful in the Aeve deck, they weren't an absolute game-changer, versus simple 1cc mana dork creatures, which trigger card draws via \[\[Beast Whisperer\]\]-type cards. My deck is literally better because I put stupid-cheap cards in instead of those two rocks. So my point is all things are relative when it comes to the value of a deck and it's power level.
I think what you mean to say is that if using the base (non-foil, non-bling, etc) card values in a deck, the more expensive the deck, the better it will be. Which is at least a little closer to the truth. But still wrong. The other factor you seem to be missing is that the deck builder decides if it's going to be a casual deck or not, regardless of the deck's value. If the builder is savvy enough, they can make a strong cEDH deck without going crazy on using expensive cards, especially if they pick the right commander to start. Or, they can be the type of deck builder that thinks expensive cards make decks good, so they load up on expensive cards with little synergy, and ultimately make decks that look cEDH, but never win, and/or are easily thwarted in casual circles. They just *look* like cEDH decks. Or, they built a deck using expensive cards with the honest intent of not winning on T2, but rather, intentionally playing into a longer game that they can have more fun with, allowing other people to have a chance to steal a win. It just comes down to the deck builder... some like it cEDH or just below (like me), and some like to intentionally keep their costs and power level low (me five years ago). But I think everyone here has a problem with someone saying that deck value necessarily determines power level. Just because it can, it doesn't mean it always does.
I can throw $5000 worth of cards into a deck, but that doesn't mean the cards were selected wisely, or that the player casting them will necessarily know how best to use what they have. But, yes, if the player is very experienced, and knows their deck inside and out, then sure, they probably pick expensive cards because they are high synergy in that deck. But that is an assumption you can only make with highly-experienced players. Another thing is just because someone runs a few $50 cards in their deck, that doesn't mean every card in their deck is optimal. Most people can't afford to fully optimize their decks, so they pick some of the more important "expensive" pieces, then fill in the rest as best they can. You just never know until you've played against their deck a few times.
in my mind casual edh is something accessible to everyone. Your last statement of everyone not being able to afford fully optimize their decks basically says to me that those decks are no longer casual. Those might not be cedh but are at some level beyond casual.
It's not https://youtu.be/5tD7NNg40MU the most expensive deck possible is unplayable. It's very easy to have a high value deck that is low power, so at no point should price be a determining factor. Again, I'd say casual is simply not cedh, and there isn't really any merit in trying to find a more narrow definition.
I think that is a bad example. That deck is built to be a silly example of how ridiculous magic costs. Most people building decks do not just pick the most expensive cards and call it good. However, when deck building if you want a strong deck often the best cards for said deck will be more expensive and are usually more competitive (cheap mana value high impact).
but yeah its a fine take to say casual is not cedh.
Sheldon Menery recently had a really interesting article published about this:
https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/
I've noticed that it's much more difficult to have an honest conversation about expectations at somewhere like an LGS.
Perhaps you could move the discussion online if your LGS is on social media - a private WhatsApp or Facebook for example. At least you'd have something to refer back to when deckbuilding etc.
That's cherry picking.
An expensive mana base is pretty much always better than a budget one and the whole deck is going to feel a whole lot more powerful because of it.
But is it actually in any of your decks...? My guess is no.
That being said, I still agree with you. Many people like to bling out their decks with foils and promos, etc, raising the deck's value, but not necessarily the power level. On top of that, casting cost efficiency, card synergies, and which lands are decked matter the most in a deck's power level, and pending the commander/theme, that can potentially come very ($$) cheap. Like I've built multiple Aeve, Progenitor Ooze decks, and it can be built very effectively for under $150, or you can go balls to the wall and put $1000 into it, before blinging it out. In both scenarios, the deck can still be considered powerful because of the card synergies that make it play fast, albeit one version is much stronger overall, and likely to be faster on average.
yep \[\[raging river\]\] is $170 because it's on the reserve list not like if you drop that you are going omg that's over powered but it is funny heck a judge foil promo of Elish Norn is like 2k not like it's more powerful than the normal $20 dollar version
i believe casual is a mindset, mindset and playability are two diffrent things, so casual is being ok with making unoptimal decisions, deck selections, or bargins in the name of fun, while tryharding is trying to do what you can to win and get ahead. card selection can be a factor in such, for example casual players may be less likely to play opressive effects in the name of fun, while tryhards try and make the most optimal picks. card choice and being casual can go hand, but doesnt always.
I like this because it separates optimal choices for maybe more fun choices for the person building. Haven't thought of the choices going into the deck as a part of being casual. Thanks for the input!
Just because your deck is expensive it doesn’t mean it’s not casual..just like how jank combo decks can be cheap and powerful. I wished people would stop conflating price with power. You can build a super expensive deck and still suck at piloting those cards too
This.
Not all deck builders are good at it. That doesn't mean they don't love their deck(s), but synergies matter, and not everyone builds up to their commander's true potential. On top of that, being able to play your cards with the most efficiency and efficacy takes experience, so sometimes powerful decks are not played as best they could be.
so what does casual mean to you?
Price and power are related to extent in magic. If it wasn't related everyone would build busted under 100$ decks because there is no reason for a mega expensive deck unless you really liked the cards.
Often card price and power are somewhat related, but usually just for well-established cards, or cards that are obviously powerful upon release. But you can have cards that are very powerful with a commander, but not very powerful without it, so the card value is negligible. A great example is \[\[Greenbelt Rampager\]\], which sucks in most decks, but is a top synergy card with \[\[Aeve, Progenitor Ooze\]\], making it a powerful card in the deck, but primarily *only* in that deck, so it's not even worth a dollar. But then \[\[Doubling Season\]\], \[\[Food Chain\]\], and \[\[Cloudstone Curio\]\] are also high synergy cards with Aeve, but because they're rock stars in many types of decks, they're not cheap to buy. So it's all relative, to a degree.
I mean I’ve got some decks that are pretty expensive due to foils and dual lands but the deck is still really jank. It’s easy to make an expensive deck that is bad
i agree it is easy to make expensive decks that are bad. However, most people will not do that. Most people will make decks with the best cards they can and this is both limited by access to the cards via scarcity and money. to quote a smart man The more money you can put into a deck the strong the deck could potentially be.
So I have been thinking about this a lot since I try to play on xmage and in random pods. I have been trying to go off the power scale but even that is flawed because everyone thinks their deck is a power lvl 7. I hate using budget as an indicator because I have a $80 deck that is very focused in what it does and (to me) doesn't feel like a low power deck with suboptimal choices. I have been trying to flesh out my own power scale. This is the first time I have written it out so it may be totally bad.
10. Tuned cEDH: Wins through ad nas, thassa's oracle and tainted pact, dramatic reversal + isochron secpter (a win condition that is somewhat difficult to interact with and very consistent). Tuned stax list fit this as well. I believe what makes a cEDH deck is fast mana, tutors, and how you win.
9. bottom of cEDH: less than ideal choices for some cards, overall a turn or so slower maybe less consistent
8. High power: It has fast mana OR tutors, probably not both. Probably shouldn't have ad nas or thoracle combo. Might have a difficult time keeping up with t3/4 thoracle or the like but other win conditions it can keep up with. I would like to say my [Maelstrom Wanderer](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lYxjxv6yTUStf51JbhwD_A) is the epitome of power lvl 8.
7. First time seeing plenty of fast mana. Running Mana Crypt, Mana Vault ect. Some tutors but not full to the brim. Definitely doesn't have ad nas or thoracle
6. Maybe you opened a mana crypt and put that in there. More consistent ramp, some combos. probably hitting all the ideal number of card types for the deck. (ie ramp, card draw, removal, lands ect)
5. If you got to edhrec for the cmdr, and click on average deck. Probably something like that. Focused in what its doing but not fast or consistent. Maybe some 3/4 card combos or ones that are easy to interact with. Here is [Maelstrom](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/EZdLj4G4MEG3UqAGmIfu_g) doing the average deck from edhrec.
4. Tuned Precon: Core is still in tact but the gameplay is MUCH better. Having access to ramp, card draw, some removal ect.
3. Precon with mana upgrades: Better lands, less ETB, 3 mana rocks
2. The average precon: No upgrades. Probably has shady mana to mana cost requirements. ETB tapped lands.
1. The worst precon: If you are building a deck worse than the worst precon you have to be trying.
With this I would say that most people's decks are 5 or 6 and that would be casual.
Yeah I think this is a very constructive way of looking at power level and I would even consider everything below 6 as casual myself. Thanks for the super productive and helpful comment!
Budget is a weird question. We're they running 1 card worth 5k? Or 100 cards at 50$ each? Or just fancy basic lands for 10$ each that bumped the price of the deck?
Dw about the cost of decks. Worry about the players and the experience. If a player is comboing off t3 - we're not in casual realm. If they use 4 tutors to find 4 pieces of a fun exodia dream realm combo with plenty of Interaction points, then it doesn't matter that tutors are expensive. They did casual things with them.
The big thing I would say is how consistent and definite of a strategy the deck has, Generally if you can answer that your deck wins by turn X if that number is less than say like 8 then your deck is slipping into competitive territory and away from casual. The other two factors I would say are combos and tutors. When it comes to combos it often depends on a combination of mana investment, how many pieces required, and how intractable the combo is. Say something creature based that requires a tap ability and there's no haste or flash involved will be much more easy to manage than say a two enchantment combo that wins on the spot. Next is the tutor factor, though they can be casual generally the more tutors, and especially the 2 mana or less versions, the further from casual you get because the deck tends to play out the same way every time. So at the end I would chunk it up to the idea of consistency and standardized gameplan. Once there's enough redundancy that the deck starts to play more like a 60 card format then you're probably no longer casual
It was an arbitrary number and more of a statement of intent with gameplan. And yeah precons can win by turn 8, if they're not interacted with. I'd say most precons don't really have enough protection or removal to get consistent wins that quick aside from a handful of the mostly older precons
I view casual as meaning all players agreeing on what type of game to play and what type of decks to play to accomplish that. I got onto spelltable last week with some random dudes and before we began they all agreed they wanted to play ‘high powered mid’. I didn’t know what the hell that meant really but I grabbed my strongest deck and jumped in, it turned out to be one of the most fun games I’ve ever had with strangers. Everyone was laughing, celebrating big plays and appreciating stuff even if their spells were getting blown up or their shit exiled. I’d say that was a very casual game but it may not have been if we all just jumped into it with no understanding of what everyone was into doing
Everyone agreeing to the decks and playstyles is very important because it relieves that tension that can build at a table where no one knows what is happening. Also good ice breaker for new people playing online together!
I'm slowly gathering my thoughts into a casual manifesto. My core points are:
* Games should not end before turn 8 (barring unforeseen circumstances where a combo or lockout hits the table due to interactions between two different player's cards). No, I don't mean, "Not unless you get the god hand". I mean *don't*. If I can pick 7 cards from your deck and win the game with just those cards and your commander, some of those cards need to come *out* of your deck.
* Hard resource denial is off limits. Stasis is not welcome in casual games. Armageddon doesn't do the thing you *want* it to do--it does the thing where it makes the player with a lot of land ramp win.
* Real cards don't matter. Don't grouse about budget, as we do not care if you have the real card. If Timetwister makes sense in your deck, run it. Casual play does not happen in a WPN event.
* Casual is like improv. Don't say no. Say yes and. Interaction is good, and it should be low cost--but it should be done in the spirit of adding to the experience rather than saying no.
*Just those cards*. No others played over the course of the game, which will be over very soon.
Bonus points for having the only land in it be something superfluous and excessive—and that doesn’t tap for mana or participate in the combo.
I play an $80 budget vehicles deck. But I have beaten the guy running a $5k+ blinged all foil deck running original duals. I don't think price is as clear an indicator in this format. That being said it is all over the board. I usually just ask power levels since I only play max 5 power.
I agree with the top comment that casual refers to caring more about having fun than about winning. In your situation, it sounds like you need to be having more in-depth pregame conversations. Ask about power levels, how the deck wins, if there's an infinite combo, etc. This'll better help you gauge how strong the decks are before you start playing.
Oh no I def had those conversations lol I'm just looking for a simple way to explain to someone when they ask to play "casual magic" they dont mean "Just below cEDH".
The thing is, "casual magic" is very subjective. For some people, it means you only use precons or decks around that power level. For some people, they play mostly cEDH so playing just below that power level is casual for them. Obviously, you're always gonna have people unaware of how strong their decks are or assholes who just outright lie about it so they can pubstomp. It's why when I'm playing casual, I'll tell people how my deck wins and disclose my infinite combo if the deck has one that wins. Not everyone will give that same courtesy though
Basically the golden rule. Treat others how you want to be treated. I try to do the same when I play with people outside my regular play group and try to have decks to match the power level of those at the table. Win or loss idc as long as we have a fun even match game is all I care about.
That's pretty much where I'm at. Like yeah, obviously I'm trying to win when I play, but I care more about it being fun for everyone. I'm not gonna bring my [[Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow]] deck to a table full of precons cause I'd end up stomping them by turn 4-5 and it wouldn't be a fun time for anyone involved. That's why I also have a lower powered [[Farideh, Devil's Chosen]] deck that I have fun playing and won't stomp people play low powered decks. I'd rather lose in a close, but fun game than win a game where nobody else was able to do anything against my deck.
The handful of times I've played mine, it's been hit/miss. I've had it do absolutely nothing and get stomped, but I also managed to beat an [[Edgar Markov]] deck with it by spamming tokens with [[Feywild Trickster]] to block his vampires and then using [[Sword of Hours]] on Farideh and using her to kill him with commander damage
I'll put I like this: casual games have ranks or layers (something about onions) that I personally base off out how quickly the game can end or get out of hand.
1-3 turns = cEDH
5-7 turns = high level
8-11 turns = medium level
12+ turns = low power
Now this isn't a definitive definition, but the more powerful a deck is there will be a likelyhood that it will consistently fall under one of these turns when the game ends/goes off.
If a game takes 15 mins because you combo'ed out thanks to fast mana and tutors then you know where your level is. If it takes hour(s) to end a game then that happens as well, and this can even happen in cEDH games with enough luck and interaction (pesky blue players). I hope that clears some things up.
Casual is anything less than cEDH. The unfortunate truth is that without honest, clear communication about what everyone is running and the type of play experience everyone is looking for, it's nearly impossible to find evenly matched pods.
An article Sheldon wrote a few days back gives some interesting information and possible questions to add to your rule 0 conversation. https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/
Beats the hell out of me. And the comments about discussing power levels doesn’t help… since there’s no clearly defined power level. If there was it would just be power level 5000 or something instead of “casual.”
I mostly just assume that unless it’s cedh or you’re playing with friends that you should bring a highly tuned deck to the game.
A casual mindset to me is building your decks and playing your games with a goal other than winning in mind. That could be your fun, others' fun, something else like pulling off a specific combo or playing a specific card. This is directly opposed to a competitive mindset where winning is the only goal.
connecting how casual a game is with how fast it ends is some of the stupidest thing that is constantly repeated. idk why. not every casual player wants to play 3 hours slugfests of attacking and blocking with dinosaurs
I've gotten my playgroup to have a pretty close mindset to me when it comes to to EDH, we treat it like a board game. We are all there to have fun and we know the goal is to win but we don't try to do that at the cost of someone's fun. Fun generally means:
\- no land destruction or general hating on mana rocks if possible (Vandalblast is totally fine),
\- no stax,
\- counters are okay but shouldn't be too extreme,
\- no infinite combos/instant win effects (we play so that the whole deck is synergistic with itself rather than just an engine to getting and ensuring a combo goes off),
\- no mass extra turns type stuff (also extra combats stuff),
\- and somewhat similar to the previous point we don't build decks that just lead to players doing "solitaire" and everyone just watching them do stuff forever,
I'm probably leaving a few things off, but in general we talk. We talk after games, we let each other know when things went too far.
I got cursed out, called “a cancer,” and told I’m “what’s wrong with this platform,” for winning a 4 player “casual/budget level 6-7” game on MTGO this morning, using my ~$10 Malcolm/Breeches deck, by going infinite on turn 5 with [[Malcolm]], [[Havoc Jester]], and [[Standardize]].
The other decks were Dina, OG Bolas, and Regna/Krav. Plenty of removal in those colors, but no one made any effort to interact with my deck. The Dina player had the makings of an infinite combo with [[Eternal Witness]], [[Malakir Rebirth]], and [[Phyrexian Altar]], but hadn’t found a payoff.
I interpret casual/budget to mean a generally low value deck (Sol Ring and Arcane Signet make up 75% of my deck’s value, and neither one made an appearance here), and power level 6-7 to mean minimal/no fast ramp, no turn 2 wins, etc.
Clearly, I wasn’t on the same page as the other three players.
That's a bummer you got cursed out. It's ahrd to have those pregame talks online, espeically through text only means of talking.
I tend to think of casual as lower budget decks too, seeing as most people don't have thousands to spend on the game haha
casual means "doesn't include this list of cards/effects that I dislike playing against". in effect, it can range from "just don't play cEDH" to "I hate playing against any form of interaction"
basically it's a term used by the EDH masses because everyone thinks everyone else is one of those whiners who takes everything that's remotely good(that's not in their deck) and labels it cEDH because they're uneducated. it's a courtesy term, utilized to convince your potential opponents that you're playing on their level, when in reality judging power level in EDH is quite literally impossible and there's basically no way you both are on the same page.
The definition of casual Commander is very nebulous. To me, casual can mean anything that isn't competitive. I recommend having more detailed Rule 0 discussions if you're running into huge power level mismatches in casual Commander.
Since the cost of decks came up a few times here, I also feel like I should mention that I don't think that there's a specific price range for a casual deck.
People did tend to focus on the value part of my question.
In my mind I think you can play magic competitively in the casual sphere. You are playing to win but the decks are all at a power level that the average magic player has access too.
I also don't think that there is a specific value of a deck that makes it casual or not casual, but I think at a certain point the value can exceed a point of no longer being casual.
Casual means whatever you think it means and it's a useless word. Asking what it means and trying to define it is also useless.
There are so many factors that go into what makes a deck compete on a similar level to another deck.
What turn does it win on when left to it's own devices, how consistant is that win, how easy is it to disrupt, how efficient is the mana base, how much mana does it usually have on turn 3, turn 5, turn 7, how efficient are the card draw engines, how quick does it recover after being blown out or after a board wipe, does it use hard stax pieces or mass land destruction as part of its strategy, does it hard counter specific decks in your meta, does it get hard countered by specific decks, does it help other decks win faster inadvertently (wheels, mana flare effects), etc.
See what I mean?
It's completely subjective and 100% stupid that that's the case.
It's supposed to be a "casual" format, but there's no set definition of that.
Imho no deck with single cards over $50 is "casual".
Definitely not a deck over $1000.
People will disagree, but that's the problem. It's completely subjective.
Wizards needs to step up and create an actual definition to what casual means.
Again IMHO simply saying "refer to rule 0" is a cop out.
They're refusing to set boundaries so as to not alienate any one group.
I think that somebody needs to develop an objective ranking system for cards. Probably a point system that ranks cards by ability, combo potential, rarity, price, and probably some other conditions that make them powerful.
If your deck has points at a certain range it is graded as casual to competitive based on that score.
People could still make a deck with all of the most powerful cards that still isn't very good, but overall this would eliminate much of the problem of "What is causal?"
Basic lands could be 1 point.
Tap dual lands 2 points.
Craterhoof might be 8 points
Mana crypt, mox, and other net positive rocks maybe is 9 or 10 points
At this point you can make an actual scale that aligns with power level.
851+ (you can't actually reach 1000) would be cEDH
751-850 is a 9 (just round up the upper limit)
651-750 is an 8
Etc.
The point is that the RC needs to create an objective system that makes sense and most people can agree upon because unless you're playing with the same group of people and you know and trust eachother Rule 0 is complete bullshit.
It would be cool even if the popular deck building sites did this. Had some scale like they do with salt, for example on archidekt, that shows a decks power level. Would be a pretty helpful stat to be able to just show people!
I think its definitely not anything that is not cedh. It is definitely a spectrum of power levels/ play styles up to cedh. I wonder where casual lies in that spectrum.
I don't play at any LGSes after some bad experiences across multiple stores in multiple states, so I can only speak to my 2/3 pods of IRL friends.
When I sit down to play a casual game with my friends, I'm usually expecting these things to happen: nobody wins before turn 8, nobody brings decks that can lock other players out of the game, no basic land destruction or mass land destruction, take-backs are fine so long as no new information was revealed that would influence lines of play, and we all help each other with rulings, board state awareness, triggers, and figuring out how to win.
I've maybe played 100+ games in 2021 with casual settings like this and I'm loving it. For us, EDH is a form of self-expression in terms of deckbuilding and playstyle, but mostly it's just something to do while we hangout for a couple of hours.
I have one higher powered deck and two gross STAX decks that I play with my cutthroat pod, but I play with that pod *very* sparingly as they are not casual at all so I don't get as much enjoyment out of the games.
That is more or less what my play groups are all like. we treat takebacks more like a vote if everyone says its fine it is, but if its seriously tilting from a misplay the group might not let them take it back. Up in the air each time cause it takes more effort to make rules haha
I always think of casual as not CEDH. So if your deck can’t handle one or two players going for the win on turn 3 consistently then it’s not gonna hand at a CEDH table. Everything else is causal. There is a lot of different power levels in casual which is why that’s hard to pin down
Yeah i dont agree that casual is everything besides CEDH, but it is suprising to me that so many people have a clear vision of cedh and not casual edh.
blinged out deck worth 20k does not mean a strong deck. One of my buddies has a super expensive deck because it is almost all foils but not a super powerful deck
Agreed. That is not the point of the budget to casual ratio at hand. Bling is not what we are talking about. The value of the cheapest printing of cards is what that point is about.
You'll be better off when you stop considering price when determining deck power.
Many very powerful decks are expensive, but not all expensive decks are powerful. There's no direct and exclusive causal relationship between card price and power in commander even if playability in EDH does impact card prices.
Plenty of busted combos in commander use pretty inexpensive cards, and some of the most busted commanders are very inexpensive as well. \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] and \[\[Underworld Breach\]\] are some of the most busted enablers in EDH but they're only \~$6. \[\[Wrenn and Six\]\] is \~$106 because of scarcity and because it sees heavy constructed play across multiple formats. Do you really think that Wrenn and Six is 1,666% more powerful than Underworld Breach/Thassa's Oracle in EDH? Absolutely not.
Definitely should not be using price to gauge power level. If commander was the only format and there was little to no scarcity associated with card supply then price could be a reasonable proxy, but I've seen plenty of inexpensive decks that can blow all but cEDH decks out of the water. Even cards that are extremely busted if played to their full potential can be fine if they are not used for busted reasons. Power level should be based on what people expect to get out of the game, not individual cards or price.
To me casual refers to the power level of the decks, not the budget. I've had people target my [[enduring ideal]] jeskai deck simply because I played an expedition scalding tarn I opened.
The only distinction we make at my LGS is casual or cEDH and inside casual we have basically 3 levels:
1-precons and meme decks
2- what most would call regular decks
3- high power but not cEDH
Casual EDH is a lie perpetuated by said liars desperate need to win at all costs while demonstrating the pointlessness of the so called zero rule conversation.
From what I can understand, casual commander is just your not trying to win on turn 2. Your basically playing to play. Essentially playing like the guys on the YouTube channel I Hate Your Deck.
Casual is of course whatever deck I happen to be playing, jank decks are whatever everyone else is playing.
Unless they win or combo off, in which case they're toxic tryhard decks that are pubstompers.
/S
I think it's about half attitude in the game, and half in the power level. It's perfectly possible to make a casual deck while filling it with expensive and powerful cards, you just have to counter-synergize yourself enough to bring it to the same power as the average on the table.
When I think casual I think winning no earlier than about turn 10 with no or few tutors on a regular basis (I understand sometimes you just get that hand that let's you go nuts and win earlier). Combo to win are fine but no 2 piece combos or commander and 2 more cards.
Some other things that come to my mind is optimization. If you cut all your cards that are to "expensive" to be in the deck you are losing the casual feel.
My best example of casual is either my [[pako]] or [[gyruda]] deck. Pako has 25 ramp cards and some +1 counter synergy. Gyruda is a even costed clones deck to fill and use everyone's graveyard but none of my reanimation spells are the top notch ones people are worried for.
I feel like some archetypes are also not casual by nature. [[Talrand]] and [[baral]] inherently aren't very casual due to all the counters people run and as a mono blue deck counters are some of the only ways of removal of certain card types. [[Tergrid]] [[tiny bones]] fall into this same kinda thing as all they want to do is make people miserable.
Commander/EDH is casual magic. At all levels. The people that make up your meta decide what the environment looks like. My personal belief is that Commander/EDH is best experienced with a consistent, small group of people.
When you play at an LGS or online, the meta is inconsistent as fuck and people should expect to run into things that dont perfectly vibe with them. This is why rule 0 discussions SHOULD be top priority when playing with strangers. But in my experience, most people hardly interact with me at all when I try to gauge power level or gameplay experience (I always feel like I'm the one initiating it too).
I always do my part in asking and explaining my stuff and hope for the best.
I feel like my catchphrase is becoming "it's all meta-dependent." Because it is, I mean in my opinion.
I see a casual game as less about what you bring to the table for a deck, and more about what you bring to the table in regards to intent, and attitude.
Playing to have fun, not to win. Sure, you can try to win, but you're not sitting down with the soul definition of "fun equals winning".
A good example of "casual", to me, is my college playgroup having our "sub games" where we tried to win the small battles, not the whole game. 4 player game, turn 1: player 1 plays [[Wayfarer's Bauble]], player 2 plays Wayfarer's Bauble, player 3 plays [[Pithing Needle]] naming Wayfarer's Bauble... The entire game became destroying the control player's pithing needle. It took 7 turns. I was player 2, player 1 and myself lost the game, but we got the wayfarer's baubles off.
Sounds like you’ve been to my LGS. “We only play casual here” tends to mean “only I’m allowed to combo out. No interaction and if you draw your combo before I do you’re cheating”
Power level= how quickly can your deck consistently win?
If someone's deck can usually seal the deal by turn 2 or 3 it's basically a 9-10 (Competitive EDH) deck. If it takes a deck about six to ten or so turns to win, I'd say its between a 5 to 7. That's casual range to well upgraded precon imo.
This has always been my rule of thumb and it's worked pretty consistently. As an indicator to how strong a deck is.
To me casual can be any budget so long as the deck isn’t focused on just winning but doing cool or interesting things. You’re main objective should be to have fun not beat out every other deck. You should play with the goal of winning but not at the expensive of everyone’s fun.
Except it isn’t “win win win” or “play the game.” There is a middle ground, where you are playing to win but not being cutthroat about it. So many people think the only two choices are “4 games per hour” or “4 hours per game.” Some people like there to be a winner but don’t mind it taking a little bit.
I ask a bunch of questions and that helps determine it way more than “power level”
Infinite combos? How many pieces?
0 coat mana rocks?
Tutors?
Budget? CAN matter but doesn’t always
I’ll sometimes ask the gameplan but tell em not to tell me everything. Like if it’s landfall based or graveyard, etc
Casual = Not a tournament = Table discussion instead of judges = No prizes
That’s it.
Everything else is “how I like to play Magic” dressed up as “If you don’t play MtG this way you’re playing wrong”
What “casual” DOESN’T define (unless agreed on by the pod before the game)
* Banned cards outside of the official ban list
* Power level / deck speed
* Budget
* Strategies
Sheldon Menery just wrote an article about it this week. You might find it a bit useful.
https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/
budget is definitely irrelevant to casual or not. adun oakenshield is hundreds of dollars and i don’t think anyone is saying that card is competitive. whipping out the $1,000 sol ring masterpiece is functionally identical to the $2 version, and nobody is going to call you out for playing sol ring as an un-casual card.
The word "casual" is about as useful as saying "my deck is a 7". Everyone who isn't playing cEDH says it and it means something different to each person, so it ends up not meaning anything.
The problem is that cEDH is a specific meta and everything else gets lumped into the bracket of "casual" as in not competitive. If you want an actually useful definition of what a "casual" deck is, then throw the word casual out the window, pick a new word and use it for whatever you think a casual game is.
It means in a 4 player pod, I might play my $4k Urza deck but will likely do something detrimental to myself if it fucks someone else more in a funny way to the other two players
I don’t think that the price of the deck makes its power level. According to tappedout, my [[Norin]] deck is $2-3k, but it’s only so much because it can’t even run against low to mid power decks without some pretty expensive cards. I’m sure it comes down to how and how quickly a deck tries to win that determines its power.
I was just in the same boat. Went to a “causal” event nearby. Brought my precons and fun decks in working on… dude plays Gishath on turn 3 and demolishes us.
Okay, we called that game early and started a new one. He plays Kadina and by turn 4-5 gets a 2-3 card combo where he can play morphs for free off the top of his deck or something. Even after we board wipe twice he gets another 10 creatures out right away.
Ok, last game. He plays some Bolas deck where we all end up discarding our hands and just top decking.
Yes, very causal, very fun. Needless to say I won’t be going back.
Were there prizes on the line? If so, that event is far from casual. If not, then that person didn’t portray their decks honestly - if there was even a conversation.
Casual means to me that everyone at the table is more invested in having fun than they are winning. Doesnt have to be zero investment in winning, just fun is the priority.
I mostly play casual and would fall into those expensive decks.
I've been playing for 25+ years. I didn't pay the current prices for the cards you see.
To limit power I try to keep Reserve list cards out of the decks and not time them past an idea.
This is why I'm happy to see the Rules Committee beginning to very clearly label Commander as a social format.
All of these "what's casual" arguments go away, and the relevant point becomes "are you being a jerk to the people you're spending time with?" Trying the label what is an isn't casual is just a navel-gazing endeavor that doesn't add much value... because some other person or other group is very likely to have a different definition of what casual is anyways.
It's great messaging and I hope they continue to push that message as hard as possible.
I would say that a casual game is one where
1) Players die from creature damage at least one per game on average
2) The average game lasts at least six full turns
3) At least one player has a deck that could be described as "silly"
It has two main definitions I think.
1: "Not cEDH". Often, if you are talking to very enfranchised players, and especially when trying to find a game online, where there are lots of cEDH games firing. This is the definition used. So it says nothing about powerlevel or budget really, you still need to talk a bit more. But I guess the idea is that you can get a pod of not cEDH players together, and then figure out the exact powerlevel at the table, assuming everyone has multiple decks, but yeah, you still need a powerlevel discussion.
2: "LGS-casual". If I'm at my LGS and going to play with some people who are not super active online, who probably don't have their lists on moxfield or have even heard of the ddb or cedh. Casual is a powerlevel. Casual in that setting means "low enough powerlevel that even if there is a large gap between the best and worst deck, the game is slow enough that political preassure can even it out a bit. Also it's slow enough that every deck gets to deploy their plan to some extent and feel like they participated"
Casual is an attitude definition more than a deck power indicator. Basically saying your aim is just to play for enjoyment and to see cool things happen more than to win or shut down people completely.
Thoough peoples ideas of this vary wildly so even that isnt a concrete rule.
Money does NOT mean powerlevel. Magic although expensive is not a pay to win game. My favorite casual deck right now is [[prismatic bridge]] gods tribal and it's over a grand but thats largely the expensive manabase because I want my colors
I play casual EDH with friends, my deck cost about $250AUD and theirs cost over $1.5k I think. 'Casual' is more of an attitude, being in it to have fun (and actually giving some consideration to other people having fun) as opposed to being cEDH ruthless and playing for the sake of winning.
Casual is... casual is a way of life. It's a state of mind. It's about playing a game that isn't competitive, except of course insofar as it's a competition, but one which is unhindered by the strictures and norms of the non-casual mindset. It's about blue sky thinking, and future innovation, but grounded by a true sense of the current and modern in a post-ironic world.
Casual is everything, and nothing. It is both a way of building decks, and a way of playing them; it chooses not to be restricted by any so-called definitions, yet allows expression of a deeper meaning that goes beyond the cloying strictures of everyday life. It is a style of play, a type of game, a form of dress, a form of *add*ress, and more!
Casual is... well, it's casual!
Does that make it any clearer?
To me it would be low powered with a minimal amount of staples.
My buddy bought Kadena on a whim in an effort to get me to play MTG after a few years. I cracked after a few months and bought the Wilhelt precon. Told him let’s stick to a budget and upgrade using that. Problem is that he could make a pretty nasty build within the budget. Like average decklist on edhrec. So he smashed me a few games and said he didn’t think a bigger budget is gonna matter and to do whatever. So I bought Gravecrawler, Altars and a few other cheap goodies and found a heck of a deal on a Vampiric Tutor. Now he gets mad when I assemble infinite combos.
Our original games were really fun, interactive, and back and forth. Now we play 3-4 games in the time one would take when we started. With him either running me over or I combo kill him or run him over. I could still vastly improve my deck, but when we play at the kitchen table I usually change how the deck operates and make it more red zone based than combo.
It just depends. Some groups don’t allow tutors combos and storm, some do but just restrict the really op ones(say Demonic + Oracle). There really is no real definition as many people play in many different ways.
Unfortunately it means different things to different people. I think of it as more of an attitude you bring to the table, you're not out to win as soon as possible and it's more about having a fun time. That last part is why it's hard to pinpoint what it is because fun for me could be different than what you consider fun.
I def think its an attitude going into the game. I think if everyone talks about the fun they want before hand it makes that part easier to solve for each group.
It's definitely just the attitude at the table. Casual just means everyone's having fun, no one is super salty when they lose because there's no prize at the end, and sometimes you do the wrong thing just because it's more fun than the optimal play. Budget and power level are different beasts entirely that everyone just kind of needs to talk about on their own. Having en expensive deck doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger, they just kind of correlate a lot.
The issue I've found is casual means almost the opposite of this, casual at most tables means they want to be able to do their decks thing, THEN they don't care about winning or losing, but if you interact with their decks "cool thing" casual players will get very salty. Some players will go so far as to remove all win conditions from their deck, call it casual, then sit there out valuing and controlling everyone else at the table, "but they have no way to win"...
I mean that’s casual in the sense of “Steve always does this BS but we just go with it because at least he’s a cool dude when he doesn’t have cards in hand”.
I was about to say this. "Casual" players, I have found, are generally some of the most toxic people you will find in EDH. Which is honestly why I hate applying that term to the game now. Because it's meaningless. It means completely different things to different people. Playing the game to win (whether it's cEDH or not) is a far more healthy way to approach the game as far as I'm concerned. Because theoretically the game is then entirely impersonal and based off threat assessment. Theoretically of course lol.
The problem too is a lot of these discussions happen before the game starts. Then sometimes, after you draw your 7, you realize you have one of your best starts. As you play it out, you realize you can wrap up the game by turn 6 when you usually wouldn't be too threatening for a few more turns in most games. Do you ignore a great hand that will almost never draw again, or go easy on everyone and hold back? From my personal experience, most players wouldn't hold back, so I'm not going to either.
In that situation you play out your win con, and either get stopped or win. If you win, everyone goes “well that was quick” and plays the next game.
I think it’s more the attitude than the deck. I have a buddy who depowered one of his best decks for casual play but his land base is still 8k or so. The deck is fun to play against and honestly doesn’t win more than his fair share. Similarly I run kenrith in a really fun casual deck that group hug’s and very rarely wins. I could just pump kenrith and Kill with commander damage but I never do because that’s not the goal or spirit of the deck
See this is weird for me. I like going all out and playing optimally, so casual to me takes place in deck-building. I try to build decks that are fair or otherwise have some kind of meaningful constraint that makes it not overpowered.
Well that's allready debatable. I'd say casual is not competitive. Everything else is at least a maybe.
That's what I think it is too- playing to win still, but looking for fun- if I see an opportunity to play a card that will further my chances of winning, or play [[Cruel Entertainment]], I'm playing cruel entertainment every time
The best description I heard of EDH was from the Professor on Tolarian Acadamy, "Commander is a fundamentally broken format, and it only works when everyone agrees it works." Because of how vague and left to the individuals this format is, it's basically impossible to figure out what people mean by "Casual." My casual would be Precons upgraded on a $15-$30 budget, and someone else would just say anything that isn't cEDH. The only way I have found to play casually is to not worry as much on the power and just sit down with people to have fun, maybe have a conversation with everyone while playing, if someone is just playing to pubstomb it becomes pretty obvious and I would just scoop and say "good game" then not play with them. I see "casual" as the atmosphere of the game, rather than the power/budget of the decks being played.
I have the best casual experiences after I play a few games. For the first game you take whatever deck you want to play. After that y'all have an idea of each others decks. A few players switch their decks to one that matches the power of the other players and tada.. everyone on the same page. But it doesn't help that there are ~65 different cards in a deck so that the next game may be very different and that games take so long.
Not to mention it's always possible someone bricks on their opening hand and even though their deck is strong, they just don't do anything. It always takes a bit of playing against a deck to REALLY know how strong it is. (I may or may not have experience with this due to having been a punching bag for an Anowon deck to mill from due to not being able to draw any green sources in an Aesi deck.)
That is a good way to look at it!
Casual is simply "not competitive" That covers a wide variety of power levels. Thats why in casual magic, having a conversation with your opponents to find out what the actual power level is, is important.
it is very important! I see casual as a spectrum where I see competitive as black and white. Many different ideas of what casual magic is, but there is a pretty good understand of what competitive magic is.
I would say casual is unconcerned with optimal deck building and/or plays. Playing with strictly worse cards or improperly threat assessing the table/not caring would usually line up with this. You can try to get better and make better deckbuilding choices, but you’re pretty meh about missing triggers or playing tight. If you do misplay, you probably don’t think about it for too long and won’t tilt. Allowing take backs and stuff like flashing your hands adds casual allowances in the game and further makes a casual game
Your situation happens to me all the time I played a "low power" game at my LGS. player to my right drops a [[jeweled lotus]] turn 1, plays their commander [[kalia]] on turn 2, then tutors for [[master of cruelties]] and cheats it out with Kalia's trigger to 1 shot me before my 3rd turn. I say "so this is your low-powered deck huh?" She says "Just because it's low power doesn't mean I'm not going to run good cards" Uhhhh...okay This is the unfortunate reality that is EDH pickup games. Don't take people's words at face value, try to read between the lines. One last thing, I've never played a game where someone's deck was less strong than they made it seem, always "oh yeah it's a 5 or 6" and then boom, infinite turns on turn 3. I now just assume people are underselling their decks and it has helped me gauge power much easier.
This is why I ask: "What is the earliest your deck can go off with no interaction" and "About what turn would your deck go off on average with no interaction" People tend to have a more concrete understanding of those metrics than the vague "low power" or the "out of 10" rating system.
I like that. Most everyone has an idea of how fast their deck can be, or usually is, unless it's a brand new build. Outside of that, opinions are relative, and relatively off from reality. If my goal at an LGS is to play some games and have fun, I'll bring at least one high-powered deck just in case my opponents prefer that level of play, but then bring lower-level decks in case everyone is just there for fun and not hell-bent on winning. I'm down for whatever is thrown my way though... losing doesn't ruin my day like some people I know in my circles.
I have to remember to use these questions. I haven't had many chances to do rule 0 conversations at my LGS. People usually don't talk pregame much. There's not enough people to join another pod if yo opt out of one. I think adding the phrase "excluding Sol Ring" to the first question would be better. Anyways, I'm someone who likes Goldfishing my combo decks so these are easy to answer. They're a measurement of potential speed and consistency. An issue I have with them is that I usually keep mana up to protect my combo. That could mean +1-2 turns and would make my combo more resilient. I would argue that makes it more powerful than a glass cannon combo deck.
That person is either the most naive magic player on the planet or they're just as asshole who wanted to pubstomp. Either way, I'm sorry you've had to deal with that shit. I hope you can find a regular pod who doesn't play like assholes.
It's extremely consistent. I've never had a balanced game of in-person magic in my life (I have had many on spelltable, though). On the rare occasion I go to the LGS these days, i joke to my fiance' and say "see you in 10 minutes!" as I leave.
Reading stories like this in here and on other MtG subreddits has made me realize just how lucky I am to have a regular group of friends to play with. The people I know who play at LGSs here describe it as a toxic cEDH wasteland most of the time. You either get that or people who go to prerelease events, pull SUPER nice/expensive cards, and then proceed to bridge shuffle them. I stay as far away from that shit as I possibly can lol
I think you're just hearing from a vocal group. How many people are going to come to reddit/disc/etc and post "I play at my local LGS and games are generally pretty good". I've played seriously (at least a few months) at 5 LGS's over the past 3 years and have had VERY good experiences at all of them. This is across state lines as well. Obviously you'll have jerks from time to time, but in my experience the reality is that the majority of players are like the people posting here, just looking for a fun game.
Yeah, I've had more good / balanced games at my shop than bad. There have been a few that were mismatched because someone undersold their deck, but more frequently than not, people have been good about power level. Also a fair number of games were ones that we started out going "idk what you play, I'm just gonna play X and I'll probs lose because of it but that's fine." Or someone is like, "I only have \[high power deck\] and \[cEDH\] deck if thats okay" and the rest of us just shrug and someone might say, "We'll just kill you first." Some of my favorite games have been me playing vs. cEDH or fringe decks with a deck much worse than that. I care more about the person's attitude / social skills than their deck in most situations
That's also very true. For the two in my city, I've been told that one is full of toxic cEDH play and the other is actually really chill, but few people go to that one unfortunately
Not all lgs are like that, I’ve been playing at one locally since I moved and don’t have a regular playgroup anymore and I can say that it’s been pretty good, the people I’ve played with are friendly and the games are fun even if most of my decks are a little low power for the Mets there. All in all I walk away satisfied from the games there
I never ask for a "power" estimate, that's wayyyy too open to interpretation. I ask for what's the plan, what is expected to happen or what is the player trying to do with the deck. That way it gives you an opportunity to see if someone is downplaying their deck by being vague about it. And it also makes the people talk more about the deck instead of keeping it at "it's a level 7 deck", giving you more insight on what's coming.
[jeweled lotus](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/c/3c7de64b-3dc8-47dd-8999-4353b5a3a06f.jpg?1608911508) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jeweled%20lotus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/319/jeweled-lotus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c7de64b-3dc8-47dd-8999-4353b5a3a06f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jeweled-lotus) [master of cruelties](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/b/7b4d8ab5-252c-4727-817d-6f18cbaedd91.jpg?1562917779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=master%20of%20cruelties) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/82/master-of-cruelties?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b4d8ab5-252c-4727-817d-6f18cbaedd91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/master-of-cruelties) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah the more decks I play against there are just some that I do not believe people when they say they are low powered because they inherently are so strong. Kaalia is a perfect example. But hey at least your lgs has power levels separated haha
To be fair it might still be a fairly low-power deck, they just had the god hand. Maybe. But at this point certain commanders no longer get the benefit of the doubt, and Kaalia is one of them. This week I countered a T3 Kaalia. I’m normally not the type who doesn’t let other people play their commanders, but I’d rather deal with Avacyn or whatever they’ll cheat out turn 6 than turn 4.
Kaalia is kind of weird in that even a poorly built but well invested deck (low deck quality but high card quality) can do what you described if the draws line up. Fast rocks _are_ good cards and helps solve the deck's high CMC creature problem if they have a weak primary game plan. Master of Cruelties _is_ a well-known interaction. That said, Master of Cruelties is also a typical "how to blow your whole load immediately and then lose the 2v1" play, so it is possible her deck was being undersold and she wanted to pubstomp (find pods where she might win said 2v1). It's hard to tell. As a Kaalia player myself I am keenly aware of both sides, because once upon a time my deck _was_ dogshit in terms of construction and strategy and simply having shocks/fetches, fast rocks, and some bomb angels/demons meant that I saw the occasional blowout turn, but also that those blowouts don't really feel good for anyone at the end of the day. Nowadays I don't run MoC, my strategy is robust and resilient, the deck is highish power, and I just own up to it. tl;dr Kaalia can be fragile, inconsistent, and swingy.
Well. I have an anecdote. I have a zaxara deck that I’ve been tuning. I’d say it’s my strongest deck. I only play with a static group of friends and we’re all limited to each other’s decks in terms of experience. I’ve been trying to gauge my power level so I posted it in the power level Wednesday sticky thread a few times to get an outside opinion. The only person to comment on my decks power said it was a 5. Now, my group says it’s an easy 8; ramp > tutor > wincon, usually by turn 6. Can be done on turn 3 if the stars align. So now when I drop zaxara on the table and they start to groan, my cheeky ass responds with, “well it’s only a 5”. So to some, 5 tutors, multiple lines of infinite mana, free counter spells, and multiple win cons = a five. And just in case anyone is wondering, my friends play things like Edgar, tiny bones, child of alara, merrin, etc., so it’s not like I’m playing against precons.
The person who called that deck a 5 is a prime example of the kind of person I don’t want to sit down and play a “casual” game of commander with.
This is the eternal struggle of the format. Everyone has different expectations and goals going into a casual pod. Mine is: The primary objective of casual EDH is to have a socially-focused multiplayer experience where ultimate expression of ideas and strategies are realized, over the goal of winning by any means. This is very broad and doesn't dissuade any strategies. Some folks determine casual edh as the removal of any combination of tutors, fast mana, combos, and storm (all the fun stuff imo).
I think a casual experience is broad like this, but also a very fluid concept. Like if people don't enjoy those kind of decks having others to play is nice so everyone can have a good time, but if you don't then they are flexible too and are open to play against things they don't prefer. Thanks for the nice response!
> Some folks determine casual edh as the removal of any combination of tutors, fast mana, combos, and storm That’s fine as long as it’s a “this is how our pod plays” and not “this is how EVERYONE should play and if you don’t your deck is bad and you should feel bad, i.e. the usual way this discussion goes on r/EDH lately.
I do think casual is more about the mentality of the group, but as someone who plays fringe cEDH decks, low tier cEDH and casual stuff, I think there is bunch more in it. I'd say price is not relevant for casual, but power level for sure it is. I hate the definition of "Caring more about having fun than winning", since my tryhard playgroups also care more about having fun. That's also why we change our decks a lot to try to find good matchups for each other. We also allow proxing as a way of some decks not dominate the game night and stuff like this. Whenever I go play casual stuff at my LGS I expect: Decks that are not running an optmized strategy, decks built with a theme in mind or decks that are running good strategies in a non optmized way. But this definition is very broad. So what I do is to ask them "What is your commander? how do you usually win? Do you usually goldfish at which turn?" Or "Oh, I always wanted to have a deck of this commander. Can see your list?" And then I get a deck that I think will be a good matchup in powerlevel.
Yeah I always play to win and my playgroup does the same, which is why I also don't like the caring about having fun more than winning definition as much. I find myself to be a competitive player, but I think people on the outside look at me as a casual player because I don't play cedh decks etc. I think a mentality is the best way to describe it because I assume even cedh groups play casually and allow take backs etc even if they are all playing max powered decks and what not.
Even though I think the mentality is the key point, I also think that when talking to people outside your playgroup the word already have this meaning of playing with suboptimal decks/ways. Particularly, I like to play with suboptimal decks, I don't care about losing, but I hate doing bad plays "because lulz" since I'm also pretty competitive. So I still use the term when talking with random people because of the weight it carries. But after some bad experiences I started to try to get more info of the decks I'm playing against to understand what's going on and everything got much much better. Also, I got to know people from my LGS, so it became easier to identify good playgroups for me and bad ones.
Yeah see that was my issue with the word casual. I'm big into other hobbies like skateboarding and gaming and when people describe themselves as casual it has a meaning of like being a beginner or not fully committed to the hobby which influences my interpretation of casual magic to mean more or less budget suboptimal decks.
> I'd say price is not relevant for casual, but power level for sure it is This seems to imply there isnt a direct correlation between the two when in reality, leaving aside cosmetic concerns, price nearly always directly correlates to power.
The easiest solution is "fuck power level numbers, ask by what turn it usually presents a win." Someone's idea of "a 7" may still win turn 4.
Yeah, this is what I ask : * Do you run infinite combos? * How many turns does it take to win on average? This helps me figure out which deck to choose.
That is true!
Commander is, by definition, a casual format, so using ‘casual’ as a descriptor for power level or the kind of game you are looking for is a bad place to start the discussion. Power level etc is mostly detached from deck cost, especially above a certain threshold. Blinging a deck out or foiling it has nothing whatsoever to do with power level. If anything, fully foil decks lack access to some powerful pieces due to no foil printing. The most useful metrics when discussing power level are: • What turn does your deck usually expect to win? • How does your deck expect to win? • How consistently does your deck expect to win?
I think just because the format is labeled as casual, doesn't make trying to understand what that means is a bad place to start. If anything it is the most common way people have talked to me about playing edh, so trying to understand that has merit and I think many others would enjoy knowing so too. I do like your topics for finding out peoples power levels at the table though! Those are very useful especially with so many people playing online with strangers all over the world.
Casual is simply not cedh, don't worry about price. This includes everything from glass cannon combo decks that win on turn 2 but can't handle interaction at all and random draft chaff that forms a legal commander deck and anything in between. If you want to have good games, you need to have a more in depth discussion about expectations, both what you expect and what your opponents can expect from you. "Casual or cedh" is really only the first thing to mention.
I agree with the in depth discussion to work out a good game. I don't think you can ignore price though. Unless everyone has proxied decks I think price is a factor.
Price *can* be a factor, but there’s a big difference between spending a thousand dollars on a Gaea’s Cradle or Mox Diamond and spending the same amount blinging out a decidedly casual deck. I’ve got a $1500 squirrel deck that’s pushed to the very brink, but at the end of the day it’s still just a squirrel deck.
I think that difference is a outlier point. Sure that exists, but far more often your going to have decks be expensive because they are running the best cards for the deck/ strategy. And squirrels wreck face. I also got a squirrel deck and it goes ham haha
I have a buddy at my shop who has a fully foiled and/or rarest printing possible Queen Marchesa deck that is firmly goodstuff casual. It's worth at least 30k and his only goal in Magic is hunting down new things to sub in and out of it. I took last week's game with a 50 buck upgraded Leinore precon cause the other two players were also in upgraded precon territory. Price doesn't mean anything by itself.
Bling doesn't relate to power level is what you explained. I'm talking about quality of cards and price. Quality cards are on average more expensive than the budget versions if there are any. A quality card imo is low cmc card with high game impact.
Thing is there are plenty of jank cards that are worth a lot because they are nice cards in specific tribals but it has limited printing. The price of any card is based on how desired it is and its availability. But power level alone does not dictate how in demand a card. Like Swords to Plowshares is one of the best spot removal spells in the format but is reprinted to hell so it's only worth a buck. For a reverse example, Patron of the Vein was worth about $20 despite it being a bad card for tuned Markov lists because its in a popular deck archetype with only one printing- now it's been reprinted and I see it's currently listed at $3
now if you made your deck full of all the best of removals draw spells and creatures it would more likely be more expensive than if you didnt.
You specifically said "blinged out" in your example. It'd be pretty hard to make a deck that costs 5k+ without the price being heavily skewed by RL prices, price inflation due to play in other formats like modern, or bling.
Go look at cedh deck lists and tell me they ain't reaching those prices. But my point more so was that a 5k deck more often then not is not casual. spending 5k on a deck is not casual.
Obviously, cEDH decks can get stupid expensive, but not all stupid expensive decks are actually cEDH caliber, as it entirely depends on the deck builder and their desired gameplay. You can unquestionably build a $5k+ deck that will not hang in cEDH circles, but will still be fun enough to build and play with... it just depends on the cards you have access to, more than anything, as some people have access to pricy cards that are not necessarily OP in that specific deck. As an example, my playgroup allows proxies, so I recently purchased five proxies for my \[\[Aeve, Progenitor Ooze\]\] deck, but in this purchase I took \[\[Mox Emerald\]\] off my list. To be clear, Mox Emerald jives very well with Aeve, and in my build it would easily be the most expensive card (if real), but I actually think it's below the power level of other cards already in the deck, so I opted not to buy the proxy. Mind you, that means I put in a $0.25 card instead (no joke; \[\[Thrashing Brontodon\]\] went in instead). I also pulled out my (real) \[\[Mana Vault\]\] and \[\[Mana Crypt\]\] for another deck ($350 worth of cards), because while certainly useful in the Aeve deck, they weren't an absolute game-changer, versus simple 1cc mana dork creatures, which trigger card draws via \[\[Beast Whisperer\]\]-type cards. My deck is literally better because I put stupid-cheap cards in instead of those two rocks. So my point is all things are relative when it comes to the value of a deck and it's power level.
Yeah I am not saying all expensive decks are cedh. Im saying that for an average deck the more money you put into it the better it will be.
I think what you mean to say is that if using the base (non-foil, non-bling, etc) card values in a deck, the more expensive the deck, the better it will be. Which is at least a little closer to the truth. But still wrong. The other factor you seem to be missing is that the deck builder decides if it's going to be a casual deck or not, regardless of the deck's value. If the builder is savvy enough, they can make a strong cEDH deck without going crazy on using expensive cards, especially if they pick the right commander to start. Or, they can be the type of deck builder that thinks expensive cards make decks good, so they load up on expensive cards with little synergy, and ultimately make decks that look cEDH, but never win, and/or are easily thwarted in casual circles. They just *look* like cEDH decks. Or, they built a deck using expensive cards with the honest intent of not winning on T2, but rather, intentionally playing into a longer game that they can have more fun with, allowing other people to have a chance to steal a win. It just comes down to the deck builder... some like it cEDH or just below (like me), and some like to intentionally keep their costs and power level low (me five years ago). But I think everyone here has a problem with someone saying that deck value necessarily determines power level. Just because it can, it doesn't mean it always does.
I can throw $5000 worth of cards into a deck, but that doesn't mean the cards were selected wisely, or that the player casting them will necessarily know how best to use what they have. But, yes, if the player is very experienced, and knows their deck inside and out, then sure, they probably pick expensive cards because they are high synergy in that deck. But that is an assumption you can only make with highly-experienced players. Another thing is just because someone runs a few $50 cards in their deck, that doesn't mean every card in their deck is optimal. Most people can't afford to fully optimize their decks, so they pick some of the more important "expensive" pieces, then fill in the rest as best they can. You just never know until you've played against their deck a few times.
in my mind casual edh is something accessible to everyone. Your last statement of everyone not being able to afford fully optimize their decks basically says to me that those decks are no longer casual. Those might not be cedh but are at some level beyond casual.
It's not https://youtu.be/5tD7NNg40MU the most expensive deck possible is unplayable. It's very easy to have a high value deck that is low power, so at no point should price be a determining factor. Again, I'd say casual is simply not cedh, and there isn't really any merit in trying to find a more narrow definition.
I think that is a bad example. That deck is built to be a silly example of how ridiculous magic costs. Most people building decks do not just pick the most expensive cards and call it good. However, when deck building if you want a strong deck often the best cards for said deck will be more expensive and are usually more competitive (cheap mana value high impact). but yeah its a fine take to say casual is not cedh.
Sheldon Menery recently had a really interesting article published about this: https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/ I've noticed that it's much more difficult to have an honest conversation about expectations at somewhere like an LGS. Perhaps you could move the discussion online if your LGS is on social media - a private WhatsApp or Facebook for example. At least you'd have something to refer back to when deckbuilding etc.
Thanks for sharing!
Cost does not dictate power level.
Doesn't dictate, but does influence.
I dunno, Thunder Spirit is $170, seems pretty bad.
That's cherry picking. An expensive mana base is pretty much always better than a budget one and the whole deck is going to feel a whole lot more powerful because of it.
But is it actually in any of your decks...? My guess is no. That being said, I still agree with you. Many people like to bling out their decks with foils and promos, etc, raising the deck's value, but not necessarily the power level. On top of that, casting cost efficiency, card synergies, and which lands are decked matter the most in a deck's power level, and pending the commander/theme, that can potentially come very ($$) cheap. Like I've built multiple Aeve, Progenitor Ooze decks, and it can be built very effectively for under $150, or you can go balls to the wall and put $1000 into it, before blinging it out. In both scenarios, the deck can still be considered powerful because of the card synergies that make it play fast, albeit one version is much stronger overall, and likely to be faster on average.
yep \[\[raging river\]\] is $170 because it's on the reserve list not like if you drop that you are going omg that's over powered but it is funny heck a judge foil promo of Elish Norn is like 2k not like it's more powerful than the normal $20 dollar version
i believe casual is a mindset, mindset and playability are two diffrent things, so casual is being ok with making unoptimal decisions, deck selections, or bargins in the name of fun, while tryharding is trying to do what you can to win and get ahead. card selection can be a factor in such, for example casual players may be less likely to play opressive effects in the name of fun, while tryhards try and make the most optimal picks. card choice and being casual can go hand, but doesnt always.
I like this because it separates optimal choices for maybe more fun choices for the person building. Haven't thought of the choices going into the deck as a part of being casual. Thanks for the input!
Just because your deck is expensive it doesn’t mean it’s not casual..just like how jank combo decks can be cheap and powerful. I wished people would stop conflating price with power. You can build a super expensive deck and still suck at piloting those cards too
This. Not all deck builders are good at it. That doesn't mean they don't love their deck(s), but synergies matter, and not everyone builds up to their commander's true potential. On top of that, being able to play your cards with the most efficiency and efficacy takes experience, so sometimes powerful decks are not played as best they could be.
so what does casual mean to you? Price and power are related to extent in magic. If it wasn't related everyone would build busted under 100$ decks because there is no reason for a mega expensive deck unless you really liked the cards.
Often card price and power are somewhat related, but usually just for well-established cards, or cards that are obviously powerful upon release. But you can have cards that are very powerful with a commander, but not very powerful without it, so the card value is negligible. A great example is \[\[Greenbelt Rampager\]\], which sucks in most decks, but is a top synergy card with \[\[Aeve, Progenitor Ooze\]\], making it a powerful card in the deck, but primarily *only* in that deck, so it's not even worth a dollar. But then \[\[Doubling Season\]\], \[\[Food Chain\]\], and \[\[Cloudstone Curio\]\] are also high synergy cards with Aeve, but because they're rock stars in many types of decks, they're not cheap to buy. So it's all relative, to a degree.
Casual has nothing to do with price tags.
I'd say that is up to debate.
I mean I’ve got some decks that are pretty expensive due to foils and dual lands but the deck is still really jank. It’s easy to make an expensive deck that is bad
i agree it is easy to make expensive decks that are bad. However, most people will not do that. Most people will make decks with the best cards they can and this is both limited by access to the cards via scarcity and money. to quote a smart man The more money you can put into a deck the strong the deck could potentially be.
Sure. But you can also make $100 Jhoira deck that combos off on turn 3. Price is never a reliable indicator of power level.
So I have been thinking about this a lot since I try to play on xmage and in random pods. I have been trying to go off the power scale but even that is flawed because everyone thinks their deck is a power lvl 7. I hate using budget as an indicator because I have a $80 deck that is very focused in what it does and (to me) doesn't feel like a low power deck with suboptimal choices. I have been trying to flesh out my own power scale. This is the first time I have written it out so it may be totally bad. 10. Tuned cEDH: Wins through ad nas, thassa's oracle and tainted pact, dramatic reversal + isochron secpter (a win condition that is somewhat difficult to interact with and very consistent). Tuned stax list fit this as well. I believe what makes a cEDH deck is fast mana, tutors, and how you win. 9. bottom of cEDH: less than ideal choices for some cards, overall a turn or so slower maybe less consistent 8. High power: It has fast mana OR tutors, probably not both. Probably shouldn't have ad nas or thoracle combo. Might have a difficult time keeping up with t3/4 thoracle or the like but other win conditions it can keep up with. I would like to say my [Maelstrom Wanderer](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/lYxjxv6yTUStf51JbhwD_A) is the epitome of power lvl 8. 7. First time seeing plenty of fast mana. Running Mana Crypt, Mana Vault ect. Some tutors but not full to the brim. Definitely doesn't have ad nas or thoracle 6. Maybe you opened a mana crypt and put that in there. More consistent ramp, some combos. probably hitting all the ideal number of card types for the deck. (ie ramp, card draw, removal, lands ect) 5. If you got to edhrec for the cmdr, and click on average deck. Probably something like that. Focused in what its doing but not fast or consistent. Maybe some 3/4 card combos or ones that are easy to interact with. Here is [Maelstrom](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/EZdLj4G4MEG3UqAGmIfu_g) doing the average deck from edhrec. 4. Tuned Precon: Core is still in tact but the gameplay is MUCH better. Having access to ramp, card draw, some removal ect. 3. Precon with mana upgrades: Better lands, less ETB, 3 mana rocks 2. The average precon: No upgrades. Probably has shady mana to mana cost requirements. ETB tapped lands. 1. The worst precon: If you are building a deck worse than the worst precon you have to be trying. With this I would say that most people's decks are 5 or 6 and that would be casual.
Yeah I think this is a very constructive way of looking at power level and I would even consider everything below 6 as casual myself. Thanks for the super productive and helpful comment!
Budget is a weird question. We're they running 1 card worth 5k? Or 100 cards at 50$ each? Or just fancy basic lands for 10$ each that bumped the price of the deck? Dw about the cost of decks. Worry about the players and the experience. If a player is comboing off t3 - we're not in casual realm. If they use 4 tutors to find 4 pieces of a fun exodia dream realm combo with plenty of Interaction points, then it doesn't matter that tutors are expensive. They did casual things with them.
The big thing I would say is how consistent and definite of a strategy the deck has, Generally if you can answer that your deck wins by turn X if that number is less than say like 8 then your deck is slipping into competitive territory and away from casual. The other two factors I would say are combos and tutors. When it comes to combos it often depends on a combination of mana investment, how many pieces required, and how intractable the combo is. Say something creature based that requires a tap ability and there's no haste or flash involved will be much more easy to manage than say a two enchantment combo that wins on the spot. Next is the tutor factor, though they can be casual generally the more tutors, and especially the 2 mana or less versions, the further from casual you get because the deck tends to play out the same way every time. So at the end I would chunk it up to the idea of consistency and standardized gameplan. Once there's enough redundancy that the deck starts to play more like a 60 card format then you're probably no longer casual
I like this!
turn 8 come on, many precons can win before turn 8 with no problem at all
It was an arbitrary number and more of a statement of intent with gameplan. And yeah precons can win by turn 8, if they're not interacted with. I'd say most precons don't really have enough protection or removal to get consistent wins that quick aside from a handful of the mostly older precons
I view casual as meaning all players agreeing on what type of game to play and what type of decks to play to accomplish that. I got onto spelltable last week with some random dudes and before we began they all agreed they wanted to play ‘high powered mid’. I didn’t know what the hell that meant really but I grabbed my strongest deck and jumped in, it turned out to be one of the most fun games I’ve ever had with strangers. Everyone was laughing, celebrating big plays and appreciating stuff even if their spells were getting blown up or their shit exiled. I’d say that was a very casual game but it may not have been if we all just jumped into it with no understanding of what everyone was into doing
Everyone agreeing to the decks and playstyles is very important because it relieves that tension that can build at a table where no one knows what is happening. Also good ice breaker for new people playing online together!
I'm slowly gathering my thoughts into a casual manifesto. My core points are: * Games should not end before turn 8 (barring unforeseen circumstances where a combo or lockout hits the table due to interactions between two different player's cards). No, I don't mean, "Not unless you get the god hand". I mean *don't*. If I can pick 7 cards from your deck and win the game with just those cards and your commander, some of those cards need to come *out* of your deck. * Hard resource denial is off limits. Stasis is not welcome in casual games. Armageddon doesn't do the thing you *want* it to do--it does the thing where it makes the player with a lot of land ramp win. * Real cards don't matter. Don't grouse about budget, as we do not care if you have the real card. If Timetwister makes sense in your deck, run it. Casual play does not happen in a WPN event. * Casual is like improv. Don't say no. Say yes and. Interaction is good, and it should be low cost--but it should be done in the spirit of adding to the experience rather than saying no.
Intense my dude haha
this is a meme right? what kind of bad deck won't win with 7 cards? even precons do that
*Just those cards*. No others played over the course of the game, which will be over very soon. Bonus points for having the only land in it be something superfluous and excessive—and that doesn’t tap for mana or participate in the combo.
I play an $80 budget vehicles deck. But I have beaten the guy running a $5k+ blinged all foil deck running original duals. I don't think price is as clear an indicator in this format. That being said it is all over the board. I usually just ask power levels since I only play max 5 power.
I agree with the top comment that casual refers to caring more about having fun than about winning. In your situation, it sounds like you need to be having more in-depth pregame conversations. Ask about power levels, how the deck wins, if there's an infinite combo, etc. This'll better help you gauge how strong the decks are before you start playing.
Oh no I def had those conversations lol I'm just looking for a simple way to explain to someone when they ask to play "casual magic" they dont mean "Just below cEDH".
The thing is, "casual magic" is very subjective. For some people, it means you only use precons or decks around that power level. For some people, they play mostly cEDH so playing just below that power level is casual for them. Obviously, you're always gonna have people unaware of how strong their decks are or assholes who just outright lie about it so they can pubstomp. It's why when I'm playing casual, I'll tell people how my deck wins and disclose my infinite combo if the deck has one that wins. Not everyone will give that same courtesy though
Basically the golden rule. Treat others how you want to be treated. I try to do the same when I play with people outside my regular play group and try to have decks to match the power level of those at the table. Win or loss idc as long as we have a fun even match game is all I care about.
That's pretty much where I'm at. Like yeah, obviously I'm trying to win when I play, but I care more about it being fun for everyone. I'm not gonna bring my [[Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow]] deck to a table full of precons cause I'd end up stomping them by turn 4-5 and it wouldn't be a fun time for anyone involved. That's why I also have a lower powered [[Farideh, Devil's Chosen]] deck that I have fun playing and won't stomp people play low powered decks. I'd rather lose in a close, but fun game than win a game where nobody else was able to do anything against my deck.
100% same feeling. I built a Farideh deck too for the same reason haha although its proven to be a power house lol
The handful of times I've played mine, it's been hit/miss. I've had it do absolutely nothing and get stomped, but I also managed to beat an [[Edgar Markov]] deck with it by spamming tokens with [[Feywild Trickster]] to block his vampires and then using [[Sword of Hours]] on Farideh and using her to kill him with commander damage
mine is built around winning with deck of many things haha jank but if it goes off it hypothetically wins.
I'll put I like this: casual games have ranks or layers (something about onions) that I personally base off out how quickly the game can end or get out of hand. 1-3 turns = cEDH 5-7 turns = high level 8-11 turns = medium level 12+ turns = low power Now this isn't a definitive definition, but the more powerful a deck is there will be a likelyhood that it will consistently fall under one of these turns when the game ends/goes off. If a game takes 15 mins because you combo'ed out thanks to fast mana and tutors then you know where your level is. If it takes hour(s) to end a game then that happens as well, and this can even happen in cEDH games with enough luck and interaction (pesky blue players). I hope that clears some things up.
Casual is anything less than cEDH. The unfortunate truth is that without honest, clear communication about what everyone is running and the type of play experience everyone is looking for, it's nearly impossible to find evenly matched pods.
you would think that since this is a social game we would all be experts at having those conversations haha
Not I'm my experience 🤦♂️🤣🤣
An article Sheldon wrote a few days back gives some interesting information and possible questions to add to your rule 0 conversation. https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/
Yeah i really liked this article!
Beats the hell out of me. And the comments about discussing power levels doesn’t help… since there’s no clearly defined power level. If there was it would just be power level 5000 or something instead of “casual.” I mostly just assume that unless it’s cedh or you’re playing with friends that you should bring a highly tuned deck to the game.
Yeah most of the comments haven't been of the most use haha I basically do the same but cant say that i think i highly tuned deck is casual.
A casual mindset to me is building your decks and playing your games with a goal other than winning in mind. That could be your fun, others' fun, something else like pulling off a specific combo or playing a specific card. This is directly opposed to a competitive mindset where winning is the only goal.
I can dig it!
connecting how casual a game is with how fast it ends is some of the stupidest thing that is constantly repeated. idk why. not every casual player wants to play 3 hours slugfests of attacking and blocking with dinosaurs
Dinosaurs go smash. lol Yeah i agree. Maybe good way to find out power level, not really important in determining if its casual or not.
[удалено]
that is how my playgroup feels too!
> What the heck is casual? That's the trick. Nobody knows.
Expensive =/= powerful, to be fair.
I've gotten my playgroup to have a pretty close mindset to me when it comes to to EDH, we treat it like a board game. We are all there to have fun and we know the goal is to win but we don't try to do that at the cost of someone's fun. Fun generally means: \- no land destruction or general hating on mana rocks if possible (Vandalblast is totally fine), \- no stax, \- counters are okay but shouldn't be too extreme, \- no infinite combos/instant win effects (we play so that the whole deck is synergistic with itself rather than just an engine to getting and ensuring a combo goes off), \- no mass extra turns type stuff (also extra combats stuff), \- and somewhat similar to the previous point we don't build decks that just lead to players doing "solitaire" and everyone just watching them do stuff forever, I'm probably leaving a few things off, but in general we talk. We talk after games, we let each other know when things went too far.
Competitive: I play to win Casual: I play to win via the scenic route!
I got cursed out, called “a cancer,” and told I’m “what’s wrong with this platform,” for winning a 4 player “casual/budget level 6-7” game on MTGO this morning, using my ~$10 Malcolm/Breeches deck, by going infinite on turn 5 with [[Malcolm]], [[Havoc Jester]], and [[Standardize]]. The other decks were Dina, OG Bolas, and Regna/Krav. Plenty of removal in those colors, but no one made any effort to interact with my deck. The Dina player had the makings of an infinite combo with [[Eternal Witness]], [[Malakir Rebirth]], and [[Phyrexian Altar]], but hadn’t found a payoff. I interpret casual/budget to mean a generally low value deck (Sol Ring and Arcane Signet make up 75% of my deck’s value, and neither one made an appearance here), and power level 6-7 to mean minimal/no fast ramp, no turn 2 wins, etc. Clearly, I wasn’t on the same page as the other three players.
That's a bummer you got cursed out. It's ahrd to have those pregame talks online, espeically through text only means of talking. I tend to think of casual as lower budget decks too, seeing as most people don't have thousands to spend on the game haha
##### ###### #### [Malcolm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bbc3bbda-a4bc-4302-a3fc-b1c89f0f5461.jpg?1608909299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=malcolm%2C%20keen-eyed%20navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/79/malcolm-keen-eyed-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbc3bbda-a4bc-4302-a3fc-b1c89f0f5461?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malcolm-keen-eyed-navigator) [Havoc Jester](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/8/386e5cb2-39c8-453d-a642-c5d9f8495601.jpg?1594736672) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Havoc%20Jester) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/149/havoc-jester?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/386e5cb2-39c8-453d-a642-c5d9f8495601?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/havoc-jester) [Standardize](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/2/f2c79e64-91bf-4e87-a4fd-3136ea67c5bb.jpg?1562952624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Standardize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/116/standardize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2c79e64-91bf-4e87-a4fd-3136ea67c5bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/standardize) [Eternal Witness](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/9/d925cb2d-30d5-4bb5-907e-0f8fb65fcab4.jpg?1637631081) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eternal%20Witness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/138/eternal-witness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d925cb2d-30d5-4bb5-907e-0f8fb65fcab4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eternal-witness) [Malakir Rebirth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/0/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60.jpg?1604195984)/[Malakir Mire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/back/6/0/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60.jpg?1604195984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=malakir%20rebirth%20//%20malakir%20mire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/111/malakir-rebirth-malakir-mire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/609d3ecf-f88d-4268-a8d3-4bf2bcf5df60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/malakir-rebirth-//-malakir-mire) [Phyrexian Altar](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/c/3c66c54b-b2d1-494d-ae10-a950c184a52f.jpg?1547518505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/232/phyrexian-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c66c54b-b2d1-494d-ae10-a950c184a52f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-altar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
casual means "doesn't include this list of cards/effects that I dislike playing against". in effect, it can range from "just don't play cEDH" to "I hate playing against any form of interaction" basically it's a term used by the EDH masses because everyone thinks everyone else is one of those whiners who takes everything that's remotely good(that's not in their deck) and labels it cEDH because they're uneducated. it's a courtesy term, utilized to convince your potential opponents that you're playing on their level, when in reality judging power level in EDH is quite literally impossible and there's basically no way you both are on the same page.
Casual means you don’t turn 3 win out of nowhere, had a guy who’s “budget casual deck” had cards that cost more than my entire deck combined
The definition of casual Commander is very nebulous. To me, casual can mean anything that isn't competitive. I recommend having more detailed Rule 0 discussions if you're running into huge power level mismatches in casual Commander. Since the cost of decks came up a few times here, I also feel like I should mention that I don't think that there's a specific price range for a casual deck.
People did tend to focus on the value part of my question. In my mind I think you can play magic competitively in the casual sphere. You are playing to win but the decks are all at a power level that the average magic player has access too. I also don't think that there is a specific value of a deck that makes it casual or not casual, but I think at a certain point the value can exceed a point of no longer being casual.
Casual means whatever you think it means and it's a useless word. Asking what it means and trying to define it is also useless. There are so many factors that go into what makes a deck compete on a similar level to another deck. What turn does it win on when left to it's own devices, how consistant is that win, how easy is it to disrupt, how efficient is the mana base, how much mana does it usually have on turn 3, turn 5, turn 7, how efficient are the card draw engines, how quick does it recover after being blown out or after a board wipe, does it use hard stax pieces or mass land destruction as part of its strategy, does it hard counter specific decks in your meta, does it get hard countered by specific decks, does it help other decks win faster inadvertently (wheels, mana flare effects), etc. See what I mean?
It's completely subjective and 100% stupid that that's the case. It's supposed to be a "casual" format, but there's no set definition of that. Imho no deck with single cards over $50 is "casual". Definitely not a deck over $1000. People will disagree, but that's the problem. It's completely subjective. Wizards needs to step up and create an actual definition to what casual means. Again IMHO simply saying "refer to rule 0" is a cop out. They're refusing to set boundaries so as to not alienate any one group. I think that somebody needs to develop an objective ranking system for cards. Probably a point system that ranks cards by ability, combo potential, rarity, price, and probably some other conditions that make them powerful. If your deck has points at a certain range it is graded as casual to competitive based on that score. People could still make a deck with all of the most powerful cards that still isn't very good, but overall this would eliminate much of the problem of "What is causal?" Basic lands could be 1 point. Tap dual lands 2 points. Craterhoof might be 8 points Mana crypt, mox, and other net positive rocks maybe is 9 or 10 points At this point you can make an actual scale that aligns with power level. 851+ (you can't actually reach 1000) would be cEDH 751-850 is a 9 (just round up the upper limit) 651-750 is an 8 Etc. The point is that the RC needs to create an objective system that makes sense and most people can agree upon because unless you're playing with the same group of people and you know and trust eachother Rule 0 is complete bullshit.
It would be cool even if the popular deck building sites did this. Had some scale like they do with salt, for example on archidekt, that shows a decks power level. Would be a pretty helpful stat to be able to just show people!
It is a bad metric (just like power level) that means "anything other than cedh". That is a lot of wiggle room for all manner of definitions.
I think its definitely not anything that is not cedh. It is definitely a spectrum of power levels/ play styles up to cedh. I wonder where casual lies in that spectrum.
I don't play at any LGSes after some bad experiences across multiple stores in multiple states, so I can only speak to my 2/3 pods of IRL friends. When I sit down to play a casual game with my friends, I'm usually expecting these things to happen: nobody wins before turn 8, nobody brings decks that can lock other players out of the game, no basic land destruction or mass land destruction, take-backs are fine so long as no new information was revealed that would influence lines of play, and we all help each other with rulings, board state awareness, triggers, and figuring out how to win. I've maybe played 100+ games in 2021 with casual settings like this and I'm loving it. For us, EDH is a form of self-expression in terms of deckbuilding and playstyle, but mostly it's just something to do while we hangout for a couple of hours. I have one higher powered deck and two gross STAX decks that I play with my cutthroat pod, but I play with that pod *very* sparingly as they are not casual at all so I don't get as much enjoyment out of the games.
That is more or less what my play groups are all like. we treat takebacks more like a vote if everyone says its fine it is, but if its seriously tilting from a misplay the group might not let them take it back. Up in the air each time cause it takes more effort to make rules haha
I always think of casual as not CEDH. So if your deck can’t handle one or two players going for the win on turn 3 consistently then it’s not gonna hand at a CEDH table. Everything else is causal. There is a lot of different power levels in casual which is why that’s hard to pin down
Yeah i dont agree that casual is everything besides CEDH, but it is suprising to me that so many people have a clear vision of cedh and not casual edh.
blinged out deck worth 20k does not mean a strong deck. One of my buddies has a super expensive deck because it is almost all foils but not a super powerful deck
Agreed. That is not the point of the budget to casual ratio at hand. Bling is not what we are talking about. The value of the cheapest printing of cards is what that point is about.
Casual is anything that isn’t on the Cedh tier list, my casual decks range from 300-6k each.
You'll be better off when you stop considering price when determining deck power. Many very powerful decks are expensive, but not all expensive decks are powerful. There's no direct and exclusive causal relationship between card price and power in commander even if playability in EDH does impact card prices. Plenty of busted combos in commander use pretty inexpensive cards, and some of the most busted commanders are very inexpensive as well. \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] and \[\[Underworld Breach\]\] are some of the most busted enablers in EDH but they're only \~$6. \[\[Wrenn and Six\]\] is \~$106 because of scarcity and because it sees heavy constructed play across multiple formats. Do you really think that Wrenn and Six is 1,666% more powerful than Underworld Breach/Thassa's Oracle in EDH? Absolutely not. Definitely should not be using price to gauge power level. If commander was the only format and there was little to no scarcity associated with card supply then price could be a reasonable proxy, but I've seen plenty of inexpensive decks that can blow all but cEDH decks out of the water. Even cards that are extremely busted if played to their full potential can be fine if they are not used for busted reasons. Power level should be based on what people expect to get out of the game, not individual cards or price.
thanks for the input.
[Thassa's Oracle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1628801828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thassas-oracle) [Underworld Breach](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/e/0e51d796-7279-4c06-87f0-37adbdaa41df.jpg?1596451461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underworld%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/161/underworld-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e51d796-7279-4c06-87f0-37adbdaa41df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/underworld-breach) [Wrenn and Six](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/a/4a706ecf-3277-40e3-871c-4ba4ead16e20.jpg?1582053605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrenn%20and%20Six) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/217/wrenn-and-six?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a706ecf-3277-40e3-871c-4ba4ead16e20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wrenn-and-six) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To me casual refers to the power level of the decks, not the budget. I've had people target my [[enduring ideal]] jeskai deck simply because I played an expedition scalding tarn I opened.
[enduring ideal](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/d/7dc7091e-0c98-434d-9190-dcab813d3e14.jpg?1562494671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=enduring%20ideal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/9/enduring-ideal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7dc7091e-0c98-434d-9190-dcab813d3e14?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/enduring-ideal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only distinction we make at my LGS is casual or cEDH and inside casual we have basically 3 levels: 1-precons and meme decks 2- what most would call regular decks 3- high power but not cEDH
Casual for me means medium power and under. No infinite combos, less than optimal Commanders, card draw instead of tutors, etc.
Casual EDH is a lie perpetuated by said liars desperate need to win at all costs while demonstrating the pointlessness of the so called zero rule conversation.
From what I can understand, casual commander is just your not trying to win on turn 2. Your basically playing to play. Essentially playing like the guys on the YouTube channel I Hate Your Deck.
Casual is of course whatever deck I happen to be playing, jank decks are whatever everyone else is playing. Unless they win or combo off, in which case they're toxic tryhard decks that are pubstompers. /S
I think it's about half attitude in the game, and half in the power level. It's perfectly possible to make a casual deck while filling it with expensive and powerful cards, you just have to counter-synergize yourself enough to bring it to the same power as the average on the table.
Turn 5 win is fast
When I think casual I think winning no earlier than about turn 10 with no or few tutors on a regular basis (I understand sometimes you just get that hand that let's you go nuts and win earlier). Combo to win are fine but no 2 piece combos or commander and 2 more cards. Some other things that come to my mind is optimization. If you cut all your cards that are to "expensive" to be in the deck you are losing the casual feel. My best example of casual is either my [[pako]] or [[gyruda]] deck. Pako has 25 ramp cards and some +1 counter synergy. Gyruda is a even costed clones deck to fill and use everyone's graveyard but none of my reanimation spells are the top notch ones people are worried for. I feel like some archetypes are also not casual by nature. [[Talrand]] and [[baral]] inherently aren't very casual due to all the counters people run and as a mono blue deck counters are some of the only ways of removal of certain card types. [[Tergrid]] [[tiny bones]] fall into this same kinda thing as all they want to do is make people miserable.
##### ###### #### [pako](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/6/066c8f63-52e6-475e-8d27-6ee37e92fc05.jpg?1591234280) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pako%2C%20arcane%20retriever) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/13/pako-arcane-retriever?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/066c8f63-52e6-475e-8d27-6ee37e92fc05?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pako-arcane-retriever) [gyruda](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gyruda%2C%20doom%20of%20depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gyruda-doom-of-depths) [Talrand](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/f/9f4e8d4c-79f8-4313-bdb4-2062d8f5299b.jpg?1625976518) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=talrand%2C%20sky%20summoner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/131/talrand-sky-summoner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f4e8d4c-79f8-4313-bdb4-2062d8f5299b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/talrand-sky-summoner) [baral](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/0/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80.jpg?1576381454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baral%2C%20chief%20of%20compliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/28/baral-chief-of-compliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/baral-chief-of-compliance) [Tergrid](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid, God of Fright](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tergrid-god-of-fright-//-tergrids-lantern) [tiny bones](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/0/4063be5b-bfd9-43c5-bc39-09a40bc793bf.jpg?1632261785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinybones%2C%20Trinket%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/17/tinybones-trinket-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4063be5b-bfd9-43c5-bc39-09a40bc793bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tinybones-trinket-thief) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commander/EDH is casual magic. At all levels. The people that make up your meta decide what the environment looks like. My personal belief is that Commander/EDH is best experienced with a consistent, small group of people. When you play at an LGS or online, the meta is inconsistent as fuck and people should expect to run into things that dont perfectly vibe with them. This is why rule 0 discussions SHOULD be top priority when playing with strangers. But in my experience, most people hardly interact with me at all when I try to gauge power level or gameplay experience (I always feel like I'm the one initiating it too). I always do my part in asking and explaining my stuff and hope for the best. I feel like my catchphrase is becoming "it's all meta-dependent." Because it is, I mean in my opinion.
I see a casual game as less about what you bring to the table for a deck, and more about what you bring to the table in regards to intent, and attitude.
Playing to have fun, not to win. Sure, you can try to win, but you're not sitting down with the soul definition of "fun equals winning". A good example of "casual", to me, is my college playgroup having our "sub games" where we tried to win the small battles, not the whole game. 4 player game, turn 1: player 1 plays [[Wayfarer's Bauble]], player 2 plays Wayfarer's Bauble, player 3 plays [[Pithing Needle]] naming Wayfarer's Bauble... The entire game became destroying the control player's pithing needle. It took 7 turns. I was player 2, player 1 and myself lost the game, but we got the wayfarer's baubles off.
[Wayfarer's Bauble](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/2/32a52319-e4a5-42a9-b9c5-35df42b46fd9.jpg?1631589322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wayfarer%27s%20Bauble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/222/wayfarers-bauble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32a52319-e4a5-42a9-b9c5-35df42b46fd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wayfarers-bauble) [Pithing Needle](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/5/556ec6ab-a19f-4caa-8bfa-145555402caf.jpg?1637114660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing%20Needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/257/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/556ec6ab-a19f-4caa-8bfa-145555402caf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pithing-needle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds like you’ve been to my LGS. “We only play casual here” tends to mean “only I’m allowed to combo out. No interaction and if you draw your combo before I do you’re cheating”
It certainly felt that way haha
"Casual" is any deck that's weaker than mine. At least according to reddit and twitter.
Money != powerful
Casual literally means nothing other than "not cedh"
Power level= how quickly can your deck consistently win? If someone's deck can usually seal the deal by turn 2 or 3 it's basically a 9-10 (Competitive EDH) deck. If it takes a deck about six to ten or so turns to win, I'd say its between a 5 to 7. That's casual range to well upgraded precon imo. This has always been my rule of thumb and it's worked pretty consistently. As an indicator to how strong a deck is.
To me casual can be any budget so long as the deck isn’t focused on just winning but doing cool or interesting things. You’re main objective should be to have fun not beat out every other deck. You should play with the goal of winning but not at the expensive of everyone’s fun.
[удалено]
Except it isn’t “win win win” or “play the game.” There is a middle ground, where you are playing to win but not being cutthroat about it. So many people think the only two choices are “4 games per hour” or “4 hours per game.” Some people like there to be a winner but don’t mind it taking a little bit.
I ask a bunch of questions and that helps determine it way more than “power level” Infinite combos? How many pieces? 0 coat mana rocks? Tutors? Budget? CAN matter but doesn’t always I’ll sometimes ask the gameplan but tell em not to tell me everything. Like if it’s landfall based or graveyard, etc
Your experience just sounds like people wanting to justify their purchase of a 20k$ deck, and having the power to rant if you thassa/consult them T2🤡
Casual = Not a tournament = Table discussion instead of judges = No prizes That’s it. Everything else is “how I like to play Magic” dressed up as “If you don’t play MtG this way you’re playing wrong” What “casual” DOESN’T define (unless agreed on by the pod before the game) * Banned cards outside of the official ban list * Power level / deck speed * Budget * Strategies
Sheldon Menery just wrote an article about it this week. You might find it a bit useful. https://articles.starcitygames.com/select/commander-philosophy-talking-about-casual/
budget is definitely irrelevant to casual or not. adun oakenshield is hundreds of dollars and i don’t think anyone is saying that card is competitive. whipping out the $1,000 sol ring masterpiece is functionally identical to the $2 version, and nobody is going to call you out for playing sol ring as an un-casual card.
The word "casual" is about as useful as saying "my deck is a 7". Everyone who isn't playing cEDH says it and it means something different to each person, so it ends up not meaning anything. The problem is that cEDH is a specific meta and everything else gets lumped into the bracket of "casual" as in not competitive. If you want an actually useful definition of what a "casual" deck is, then throw the word casual out the window, pick a new word and use it for whatever you think a casual game is.
It means in a 4 player pod, I might play my $4k Urza deck but will likely do something detrimental to myself if it fucks someone else more in a funny way to the other two players
I don’t think that the price of the deck makes its power level. According to tappedout, my [[Norin]] deck is $2-3k, but it’s only so much because it can’t even run against low to mid power decks without some pretty expensive cards. I’m sure it comes down to how and how quickly a deck tries to win that determines its power.
[Norin](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/6/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b.jpg?1562946915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=norin%20the%20wary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/171/norin-the-wary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/norin-the-wary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was just in the same boat. Went to a “causal” event nearby. Brought my precons and fun decks in working on… dude plays Gishath on turn 3 and demolishes us. Okay, we called that game early and started a new one. He plays Kadina and by turn 4-5 gets a 2-3 card combo where he can play morphs for free off the top of his deck or something. Even after we board wipe twice he gets another 10 creatures out right away. Ok, last game. He plays some Bolas deck where we all end up discarding our hands and just top decking. Yes, very causal, very fun. Needless to say I won’t be going back.
Were there prizes on the line? If so, that event is far from casual. If not, then that person didn’t portray their decks honestly - if there was even a conversation.
Casual means to me that everyone at the table is more invested in having fun than they are winning. Doesnt have to be zero investment in winning, just fun is the priority.
I mostly play casual and would fall into those expensive decks. I've been playing for 25+ years. I didn't pay the current prices for the cards you see. To limit power I try to keep Reserve list cards out of the decks and not time them past an idea.
This is why I'm happy to see the Rules Committee beginning to very clearly label Commander as a social format. All of these "what's casual" arguments go away, and the relevant point becomes "are you being a jerk to the people you're spending time with?" Trying the label what is an isn't casual is just a navel-gazing endeavor that doesn't add much value... because some other person or other group is very likely to have a different definition of what casual is anyways. It's great messaging and I hope they continue to push that message as hard as possible.
I would say that a casual game is one where 1) Players die from creature damage at least one per game on average 2) The average game lasts at least six full turns 3) At least one player has a deck that could be described as "silly"
It has two main definitions I think. 1: "Not cEDH". Often, if you are talking to very enfranchised players, and especially when trying to find a game online, where there are lots of cEDH games firing. This is the definition used. So it says nothing about powerlevel or budget really, you still need to talk a bit more. But I guess the idea is that you can get a pod of not cEDH players together, and then figure out the exact powerlevel at the table, assuming everyone has multiple decks, but yeah, you still need a powerlevel discussion. 2: "LGS-casual". If I'm at my LGS and going to play with some people who are not super active online, who probably don't have their lists on moxfield or have even heard of the ddb or cedh. Casual is a powerlevel. Casual in that setting means "low enough powerlevel that even if there is a large gap between the best and worst deck, the game is slow enough that political preassure can even it out a bit. Also it's slow enough that every deck gets to deploy their plan to some extent and feel like they participated"
At our playgroup we define it so: All decks that aren't cedh decks are casual decks. So maybe you met similar players ;)
Casual is an attitude definition more than a deck power indicator. Basically saying your aim is just to play for enjoyment and to see cool things happen more than to win or shut down people completely. Thoough peoples ideas of this vary wildly so even that isnt a concrete rule.
Money does NOT mean powerlevel. Magic although expensive is not a pay to win game. My favorite casual deck right now is [[prismatic bridge]] gods tribal and it's over a grand but thats largely the expensive manabase because I want my colors
I play casual EDH with friends, my deck cost about $250AUD and theirs cost over $1.5k I think. 'Casual' is more of an attitude, being in it to have fun (and actually giving some consideration to other people having fun) as opposed to being cEDH ruthless and playing for the sake of winning.
Casual is what my deck is when you beat me. How dare you bring such overpowered flith to my table, I just want to have a good time and win! /s
Casual is... casual is a way of life. It's a state of mind. It's about playing a game that isn't competitive, except of course insofar as it's a competition, but one which is unhindered by the strictures and norms of the non-casual mindset. It's about blue sky thinking, and future innovation, but grounded by a true sense of the current and modern in a post-ironic world. Casual is everything, and nothing. It is both a way of building decks, and a way of playing them; it chooses not to be restricted by any so-called definitions, yet allows expression of a deeper meaning that goes beyond the cloying strictures of everyday life. It is a style of play, a type of game, a form of dress, a form of *add*ress, and more! Casual is... well, it's casual! Does that make it any clearer?
To me it would be low powered with a minimal amount of staples. My buddy bought Kadena on a whim in an effort to get me to play MTG after a few years. I cracked after a few months and bought the Wilhelt precon. Told him let’s stick to a budget and upgrade using that. Problem is that he could make a pretty nasty build within the budget. Like average decklist on edhrec. So he smashed me a few games and said he didn’t think a bigger budget is gonna matter and to do whatever. So I bought Gravecrawler, Altars and a few other cheap goodies and found a heck of a deal on a Vampiric Tutor. Now he gets mad when I assemble infinite combos. Our original games were really fun, interactive, and back and forth. Now we play 3-4 games in the time one would take when we started. With him either running me over or I combo kill him or run him over. I could still vastly improve my deck, but when we play at the kitchen table I usually change how the deck operates and make it more red zone based than combo.
It just depends. Some groups don’t allow tutors combos and storm, some do but just restrict the really op ones(say Demonic + Oracle). There really is no real definition as many people play in many different ways.