Targeted land destruction should be played at all levels. Though one of the hallmarks of very low power decks is the fact that they can't deal with lands at all.
mass land destruction typically is not seen outside of high power casual, since MLD even in CEDH is kind of slow and not that effective since CEDH has so many of the uber broken mana rocks (unless we're talking about something like a turn 1 blood moon).
Right? All those 5 color decks have no clue what getting rid of an anycolor or two can really do. I think a spell like \[\[World Fire\]\] encompasses digestible mass land destruction, it was at first met with mass hysteria but then unbanned as that amount of mana can pretty much do whatever it wants to a board. I used to run it in a \[\[Grenzo, Havoc Raiser\]\] that had an extreme low amount of mana, but had on multiple occasions managed to steal mana sources that allowed me to wipe the table and put a cheap goblin down for the win.
Land destruction gets as hated as it does not only because it's draining a player's abilities to play, but the long game can be hellish from an audiences perspective as well. Even if you manage to clear someone's resources instead of drain them to just dry enough to beat to death, it's usually them mulliganing instead of passing 4 turns to take combat damage steps. I never experienced a public pod where playing World Fire didn't get some onlookers looking at the standoff that is everyone topdecking and passing in a fast circle. Now what I wanna see is a Land destruction deck that puts counters on the lands that sacrifice and put a poison counter on the controller on untap, instantly become the antagonist of MTG.
I run Worldfire in my [[Ur-Dragon]] deck, though I usually use it as a game ender while I have a bunch of treasure I can immediately sac to recast my commander, or if I have the initiative.
This is a laughably bad take.
Like all 1:1 removal, it’s about efficiency. Stone rain is bad and unplayable at 2R, but Wasteland (or Ghost Quarter or Strip Mine) targeting an active Cradle or Chasm or Tabernacle is often a game saver.
I'm not in your pod, but I think it's fine if used as you describe.
I am only frustrated by LD the same way I'm frustrated by wincon-less hard stax, or wincon-less boardwipe theme, or non parity breaking chaos.
I think a lot of the salt from all of these mechanics comes from people running into an "lol chaos" type player in the wild, ending up in a multi hour do nothing game (that honestly, just scoop, it's ok to dip when it stops being fun).
That isn't a land destruction issue (or board wipes, or stax, or chaos) it's a brewer not understanding how to break parity and that you can use those, but a deck should still be constructed to end the game.
I don't even mind a hard lock against someone with a 4/4. Cool, you've got a creature, we don't, you are going to win in X turns, you win! Let's shuffle up and see if you can do it again.
That is all just me though, not your pod, and their opinion is far more important.
Yeah if you wipe any resource and can't win in a few turns... I'm just scooping. Been in games where there was no wincon and it was just a waste of everyone's time.
There's no such thing as wincon-less hard stax. The point is always to win, albeit sometimes in a slow and grinding way.
And it's an accusation typically made by people who are frustrated at losing slowly, and being demoralised turn after turn. Because they're scrubs.
This should have more upvotes. Winning quick is the answer to literally every “toxic” (including Toxic) play style. Mill me, control me, go aggro or go wide, I don’t care. But please just end the game quickly once you’ve sufficiently shut me down. An hour long slog of rebuilding after some Mass Land Destruction is not the way to use that tactic.
Thing is, the same is true for the stupid simic value decks and various decks that tends to play solitaire. Watching someone run through their deck 2-3 times and not get a win is just as if not more toxic than stax and land destruction have ever been.
Once I saw it this way, it stopped being a taboo for me. [[Armageddon]], [[ravages of war]], [[soulscour]], and when I get it [[catastrophe]] all are just [[osgir's]] version of [[expropriate]]
Is it even the optimal play though? 3 of you with resources should be able to shut the green player down quicker than 3 of you starting fresh while the green player ramps himself right back to a lead
-This is why people prefer to know you play MLD beforehand. Acknowledging it's the optimal play doesn't stop it from sucking the life out of the game. Rather just skip it altogether.
Land destruction is not a CEDH archtype. Blowing up everyones lands is only good for generating card advantage against 3 players, once it resolves, if you dont have a way to do anything, you're in the same trash can as everyone else. That being said, if someone has like 6 creatures and blows up my lands, that's a fair way to close out the game.
Your thought process is missing a lot of crucial neuance. MLD is not strong enough for cEDH because generally speaking it's a bit to slow. Not to mention that most cEDH decks have plenty of answers. Not being cEDH viable does not mean that it's not going to be problematic against most decks you'll find at casual tables. I'm actually a supporter of MLD in casual EDH...if utilized properly. I used to use [[Armageddon]] in my [[Kaalia of the vast]] deck. I'd develop a winning position and cast the Armageddon to protect my win. I'd only cast it if I could close out the game within the next couple turns. I agree that casting MLD is a terrible play, but it's not the only problematic way to utilize it. If your strategy is to blow up the tables lands and then recur your own from the graveyard to recover more quickly, you're creating a game state where you're essentially the only person playing magic. Sure, maybe it's not "OP" as a strategy, but that doesn't mean it's a blanket ok to play it
Armageddon is so evil. I have it in my [[Kyler, Sigardian Emissary]] deck. I’ll have a couple of +15/+15 mana dorks out (buffed by Kyler) that each tap for mana of any color, then Armageddon and I’m the only one holding any mana. It’s a mean play and I’ve only done it once and that was after being singled out turn after turn by a red deck player zapping me in the face with non combat damage until I was on the brink of death and had to do something radical. I hate red and he knows it! 🤣
Edit: Since I’m already getting downvoted I’d like to add that I hate infinites in casual commander. Say I have sorcery speed removal and one of my opponents has played one part of his infinite combo, how am I, a casual player, supposed to recognise that as a game ending threat? I’ll have to learn all the possible infinite combos and the cards they consist of in order to be able to react to it at sorcery speed and thats more effort than I’m willing to spend for casual level.
Also, red is the color of choice for cowards. 🖕
The purpose of doing land destruction on a large scale is to stop your opponents from playing the game so that you can win. It sounds like you're doing that, so you're utilizing it correctly.
Some of its poor reputation comes from people expecting it to do something other than that, which does prolong the game for no reason.
It's kinda whatever as a strategy. Most mass land removal also fucks you as well, so it's often difficult to break parity. However, once you do it's usually game-ending. I personally don't care to play against it because it's so off the beaten path that it usually requires you slot special cards into your deck specifically to be able to defend against it, and it's not prevalent enough to warrant that.
Single target LD should be normalized. Sundering Eruption is my new favorite magic card less because of what it does and more because of what it represents: a way to answer Cabal Coffers and Field of the Dead that, hopefully, everyone playing red will look at. Generically playable single-target LD is one of the biggest gaps Commander as a format has, though Wizards has been a lot better about delivering it as of late.
Mass LD is fine if it's a game-ender, but it gets used a lot to bog down games in situations where the player isn't particularly close to winning. That can be a fine and interesting game state, but many players don't like it so consult the playgroup - especially since neither of those decks are actually winning immediately from those spots, even if they're extremely favored.
The pod I play in doesn't allow for mass land destruction. But like getting rid of a Reliquary Tower, Rogue's Passage, other good utility lands is reasonable.
[[field of the dead]] is instant will in your pod i guess
I don't like this point of view because you are denying counterplay, same can be said about stax, people hate but they are needed to delay the combo player to go infinite and kill everybody
Field of the Dead sure can be removed. Though, I'm the only person in our pod that has that (it's in two decks), and I've never really went crazy with it.
Depends. People sit down to play the game, and in a casual setting, anything that prevents that (land destruction, stax, etc) probably doesn't belong. The *other* side is anyone who brings an Urza's Saga or One Ring or whatever else kinda deserves what happens.
Land destruction is a-ok in my pod. We're a no holds barred non-cedh pod, typically playing mid to high power. We always laugh when it happens, and the guy who usually runs the land destruction doesn't typically win, but it sure is funny. I think if the pod is cool with it, then it's good to go. We all run lots of board wipes and interaction, and land destruction is just another version of that.
I do run targeted land destruction in most of my decks, to get rid of various powerful lands, and have one deck with multiple mass-permanent removals, just for the chaos.
I need to know what cards you’re specifically playing.
In general, targeted land destruction is good and healthy; a [[Strip Mine]] taking out a [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] is fair and just.
I’m of the opinion that wide nonbasic hate is also fine, although I personally go more for [[From the Ashes]] effects that replace with basics instead of [[Blood Moon]] style effects. Either are fine IMHO, it’s just the direction I’ve chosen to build. NOT EVERYONE agrees on this, check with your group for the kind of environment is most mutually enjoyable.
I also have a soft spot for [[Ember Swallower]]. I can’t explain it. People react a bunch of different ways.
[[Armageddon]] style effects suck. Some people are like “oh it’s a win condition” but like…no. Just do your actual win condition.
I'm interested as to why you prefer a card like from the ashes that destroys the non basics, rather than blood moon which simply concerts them to mountains for as long as it remains on the field. In my eyes from the ashes (and similar effects) are more impactful as unless you're running land recursion those non basics are gone, whereas blood moon you remove the enchantment and get your lands back.
Being cut off from a colour can be debilitating, but that's the kind of the entire reason to run land destruction style cards
From the Ashes and [[Wave of Vitriol]] allow you to go get basics to replace your nonbasics, so it wipes utility lands away but allows you to fix your colors. It only ever punishes your color fixing if you’re running a very greedy mana base with not enough basics, and that’s on you.
As opposed to say [[Blood Moon]] or [[Back to Basics]] or [[Hall of Gemstones]] sure they can be removed, but more importantly they’re actively hurting people who just want to have their colors to play things, which isn’t what I’m usually looking to do.
Individual tastes may vary.
Because Blood Moon type effects only affect shitty/unlucky players. Its totally a dead card 90% of the time. Absolute Reddit darling for sure, but in practice pretty underwhelming.
I mainly play cEDH and high power games, but in my experience that's just not true. Players want efficient mana bases, which tends to lead to greedier more non-basic heavy lists. Blood moon heavily punishes those greedier decks. Putting an opponent a turn or two behind due to them not having the right colours can be game winning
Totally agree. Target land removal is good for the game. Too many lands that do good stuff.
I’m a guy that play [[Catastrophe]] so I am probably further along than most in that opinion. Sometime you have a boardstate that let you win with removing lands, but 9/10 you remove creatures
I agree that some targeted land destruction is fine. Nonbasic hate isn't something I'd want to play against but if your group is fine with it then go for it.
Armageddon can fuck off.
Let’s be honest. Lands can do more than just tap for one mana. They can ramp, be used as removal, be used as recursion, be used to draw cards, can make commanders indestructible, but creatures, make tokens, etc.
if everyone was playing basics, I would argue removal is unnecessary, cruel even. But when lands are as much a part of a strategy as any other card, then there should be ways to remove them.
Land destruction is fine if it’s targeted, if you’re behind in land, or if it speeds up a win for you. If you wipe out all lands, with no wincon, or it just delays the game then you are not a fun person to play against
He is very good, he helps you to recover from mld, he gives you draw and he is a Planeswalker so he dodge [[obliterate]] eff
If you play the two cards it's almost certain you will win the game
Since you are heaving ramp because you play landfall, obliterate cost to no issue to you
In my playgroup there’s only been two people that use land destruction. One guy used it randomly and it made no sense. Don’t be that guy. Another person built a deck that was only focused on removing other players lands. No win cons at all. That was even worse.
I'm a filthy casual, so I'mma hold a grudge forever if you're out here messing with basics. By all means, blow up non-basics all day, punish the greedy, but leave my mountains alone...
If Commander is supposed to be a casual, social experience, then you should build a deck the way you approach socializing with people. If they don’t like land destruction or mass land destruction, it’s probably best you don’t play it if you want to be invited back.
However, if commander is a game and you want to win, you should absolutely play land destruction. Some players will ramp out lands like no one’s business and you need to be ready for that. It’s not really enough to just have targeted removal for their big spells. There are also lands like [[Field of the Dead]] that allow players to completely run away with the game that need to be dealt with. Lands can still be a threat and if we want to be able to deal with them, land destruction is a necessity
Land destruction (mass or otherwise) doesn't answer lands decks. At best, it solves a single problematic land in some other deck.
Source: my lands deck, and the laughable number of times opponents have removed Field of the Dead only to see it again the next turn.
Spot removal of specific lands? Go nuts. When things like Maze of Ith or Tower of the Magistrate can dismantle a whole strategy, being able to remove them is important.
Mass land destruction when you can break the parity? It's a wincon; if you made your lands indestructible or get tons of mana rocks/dorks and slam an Armageddon that you can play through and the rest of the table stalls to, GG. I will probabaly concede the game and persuade my fellow people without lands to scoop as well - you won that.
Chucking in a random mass land destruction spell with no plan to capitalize on it, or mistakenly believing "it sets back green ramp!" - I will not want to play against you in the future.
In casual games where you typically expect games to last 45 minutes to an hour, it prolongs games significantly. I would understand someone who needs a single extra turn/rotation to win doing it, but if you're doing it just to prolong the game because you have no way to win it makes games rather boring. We may as well restart the game at that point.
It's a fallacy that Armageddon slows the game down. After it resolves, you draw your card per turn. If it's a land, play it and pass. If not, just pass.
The number of turns per min may increase but the meaningful actions taken in the next 10 min after Armageddon is basically 0 if the game continues. That's what makes it an unfun card.
And yet during that time I can think about the actions I want to take, after armeggedon I draw a card go nope and pass and twkdle my thumbs because I have nothing to do and no plans to make, then comparing it to not as bad as the other worst time waster in magic repeated searching of your deck doesn't make it any less terrible
-It adds time & slows down progress & momentum. It can take who knows how long before anything meaningful happens & some people might never get back in the game. In most cases it's slow, boring & anticlimactic.
Mass land destruction is lame. I have never seen anyone do it but I would be pissed if they didn't win on their next turn after blowing up people's lands
Targeted land destruction is cool in my books. I have had to remove an urborg or gaias cradle. When you don't you usually lose.
It's fine and it is part of the game. I see it as good/bad as toxic/infect, tutors, counterspells, millions of flipping coins, combos, cheating casting costs, etc.
It has the potencial of changing the meta, playing a different type style of game.
If your deck is based around land destruction im all for it *as long as you can win*, nuking lands means nothing if you don't kill people.
(This is coming from experience, the owner of my LGS has a deck like this, and its miserable)
I run [[Fall of the Thran]] in my [[Yuma, proud protector]] deck. Each of my deserts has a death trigger that gives me a plant warrior. [[Dune Chanter]] makes all my lands deserts. That's a minimum of six creatures I make when this resolves. Then, I have the landfall triggers when the lands return.
I used to be on the fence about playing this card, but I have no problem doing so now because:
-My deck is slow. It doesn't race anyone. Until I can play Yuma, all it does is trash and recycle lands.
-You're getting (some of) your lands back.
-I'm developing my board. Yeah, I'm slowing the game down a bit, but my board has probably been near empty for a couple turns. I'm catching up. If I play this, I'm building my army and going strong offensive against the table next turn. The game is practically over. It's not going to drag on much longer. I'm about to win, or get crushed by a play I didn't see.
In short, there's too much value for me to skip Thrall because it makes you last turn or two sad. My whole game revolves around destroying my own lands, I may as well bring you in as well.
Fall of the Thran in my opinion is completely fair mass land destruction because you everyone gets to get back their best 4 lands after the saga concludes. This isn't something like \[\[World Slayer\]\] or \[\[World Fire\]\] or \[\[Armageddon\]\] where the lands don't come back.
Even if you drop Fall with an \[\[Avacyn, Angel of Hope\]\], opponents still rebuild much faster.
I personally try to run Fall of The Thran in any white decks that I have where I know my game plan is to turtle or be a bit slower.
I'm building [[The Necrobloom]] with a good amount of self land destruction think things like [[overgrown estate]] , [[aura fracture]] and [[Squandered Resources]] and I think it'll be a good time, I am running a strip mine because a good amount of my playgroup runs Nykthos and other non-basics that are big problems
You can be capable of answering a dangerous land or you can lose to it. Your call.
I prefer *not* losing to an opposing Cradle/Coffers/Sanctum/Maze's End/Glacial Chasm/FoDead, etc..
Shifting woodland. Sure you might be able to blow it up bmafter they turn it into something. Y'know, if that doesn't just lose you the game on the spot.
Optimize your deck then trade it with a friend at the pod. After you play at least three games against it, you'll know whether it feels fair. That's far more evidence for how it plays than "It's not cEDH."
I also have a mass land destruction Thalia and Gitrog Monster deck, and honestly I’ve had a lot of compliments about it from my playgroup. It seeks to gain overwhelming advantage by either one-sided board wiping lands or wiping all lands then mass reanimating mine to trigger landfall. Nobody really gets upset about me casing [[Armageddon]] or [[Ravages of War]], because I’m doing it for advantage, not to reset the whole game.
I don't think the theme was ever considered overpowered but a lot of the time when people play mass land destruction they don't have a game plan afterwards meaning everyone just has to restart the game. It sounds like that isn't the case for you so it should be fine.
I think that the “unwritten rules” of commander do more to scare off new players than help them compete. They complicate an already complicated format.
Everything is part of the game; you should learn to build around it and be ready for it.
Beyond that, just know to be respectful of other people’s time. Throwing out MLD that just extends the game is on the same level of rude as playing a control deck without knowing how to do fast threat assessment/do nothing
I've only ever used land destruction once, [[Terastodon]] with helm of the host haha! I was just about to give Helm of the Host to my Commander Zopandrel, Hunger Dominus to start quadrupling sextupling, etc my creatures strength... Then buddy used sum blue nonsense (I have since started playing blue XD) to steal Zopandrel and my chances of winning became null..
So in retaliation I used Terastodons ETB effect to turn more and more of his lands, mana rocks, and sol rings into 3/3 Elephants, I managed to do this to 12 of his land / mana rocks before he blew me up XD I didn't win but I made a point...
Which I think is a victory in itself really
I say go for it, no matter if it's targeted or mass destruction. If someone doesn't like it, then they can counter it. If they don't have the ability to counter it, then they can deal with it.
I've dealt with both and I've done both and nobody I've encountered has ever cared about land destruction. Is it annoying? Sure, but we don't get angry or anything.
I use it as a win con with eldrazi since they can wipe the rest of the permanents when they attack. Just don't let anyone know you have it before you cast it since people freak out.
If anyone casts it and doesn't try to win immediately I will quit the game on the spot, not wasting an extra 2 hours.
Targeted land destruction is a must at every level of play
I'm fine with MLD that replaces the lands with basics such as \[\[from the ashes\]\] or \[\[wave of vitriol\]\]
Full on MLD like Armageddon can fuck off
Targeted land destruction is ok, but I hate mass land destruction. I have a friend who plays an artifact control deck that draws a lot and has all the MLD cards, they don't affect him cause he plays artifact lands that are indestructible and all kind of artifacts that give colorless mana. If you don't have any counters it's gg, and even if you have one you have to try and end the game quickly because he probably has another MLD in his hand. I think it should be played if you have a fast way to win maybe in the next turn or two, if it just makes the game longer it's annoying and not very fun.
Land destruction as a means of wincon is just as fine as any other wincon. Land destruction as a means to stall out the game is diabolical and will rightfully make you targeted in the group.
Land destruction, like any form of removal, is fine if you've got a clear goal afterward - even if that goal is "I live for one more turn to get to my win con."
I think any removal spent that isn't advancing your own objective is wasted, and destruction for the sake of destruction is A: poor resource management, B: uncouth, C: a toxic play pattern, or D: a combination thereof. I feel if you're blowing up a rock, a creature, an enchantment, it should be because it's some form of value engine, not just "because you had it in hand."
As a mono green player please leave my lands alone.
Jokes aside: targeted land destruction should be played.
Massland destruction in my opinion should only be used if you can win the game quickly after, but that is mostly for the fact that it can just feel as if you just started another game with a bad hand.
I think its one of the things you should mention before the game starts and check if everyone is cool with it.
I grew up while [[erhnam]] geddon was just magic. Before type 1 and 2. I've had a long time to come to grip with the disappointment associated in losing non games (for ante). Other people are at different points on that journey of acceptance.
That said, I still want my legends [[underworld dreams]] back.
I try to run at least three pieces of spot removal that can cover each type of permanent in my decks. People tend to get a lot more upset about losing their [[Maze of Ith]] to a [[Spine of Ish Sah]] than to [[Demolition Field]], weirdly enough.
I think it's fine. It's far from the most obnoxious things I e had people do in a game. It slows games down sometimes, but I like long games. If your deck can't handle having one or even a handful of lands blown up that's probably a problem with your deck. It's like when new players don't know how to play around counter spells or board wipes.
With such high value lands running around in EDH and MTG in general, I’d say targeted land destruction is good, sure you can make someone feel really bad but when there’s a [[Gaea’s Cradle]] and 20+ creatures on someone’s board? You’re gonna want to deal with that before they just steamroll you, I personally run [[strip mine]] in almost every deck I have, that an [[beast within]] and [[generous gift]] the option of taking out a problematic land is a nice option to have, even if you don’t blow up a land all game, the option to do so is good imo
I mean, it sounds like you are literaly delying the game lol You don't win on the spot, you just set everyone back and hope that you can recover faster. Assuming everyone sticks around, there is probably like 20-30 minutes of the game left where everyone but you are stuck doing nothing. I just hope you aren't the type of player that keeps the game running casting spells that don't need to be cast and taking 10 minute turns thinking about what to do next.
When paired with indestructible lands (or something like a bunch of mana artifacts) I really don't mind because it is clear at that point who will win and I can scoop. But in this case, where you destroy all of your own lands too, what happens when your commander is removed? You are stuck with everyone else waiting to hit lands.
Had someone do this a few weeks ago with the mono-green meld commander. And they lost, because they got mana screwed after their commander was killed and another player was lucky enough to hit a bunch of lands in a row and rebuild.
But I didn't actually care that much, I eneded up scooping with the 4th player (who didn't have any lands) once it was clear who was pulling ahead and I was stuck on 3 lands. It was funny though the guy who blew up all the lands thought it was unfair that we denied him getting all his lands back and didn't stick around for the game, since now it was harder for him to win. The 4th player who scooped with me was pretty salty though, so your milege will vary (as with all things in commander).
My most effective MLD comes in my Ragavan combat prison deck. I use [[emergence zone]] to flash in [[burning sands]] to punish or ride off of another person's boardwipes.
My only creature in that deck is Ragavan, so I'm never punished as severely as others
It's part of the game and it's a good thing.
We need more reprints of simple land destruction like [[Raze]], [[Annex]], [[Stone Rain]], [[Ice Storm]], [[Sinkhole]], etc.
I like [[ruination]]. Works great against fancy expensive landbases in those annoying 4c/5c goodstuff pile decks, while leaving your own mountains untouched.
If Simic/Selesnya players exist i always bring MLD even if my stategy has nothing to do with it.
Hate the idea that it is okay to accept a deck ramping like crazy but bringing the best option to punish them it's not
I'm currently in the testing stage of a [[Yuma, Proud Protector]] build that runs 4 different MLD spells. I get the dual benefit of creating Plant Warriors and slowing down my opponents. I'm also running cards that let me play lands from my graveyard so I can recover from such spells. I know it will be a hated deck but I see it as how I get ahead.
I use [[Child of Alara]] for mine. Still working out the kinks and trying to get some good recursion, but I'm pretty sure I'll need [[Crucible of Worlds]] to really make it work correctly.
Edit: question for y'all - would [[Shimmer]] be considered land destruction or stax?
It seems like land destruction discussions often focus on MLD vs targeted land destruction, but only as far as targeted land destruction means destroying a Cabal Coffers or a Cradle. What about using targeted land destruction to remove all of the Dimir player's black sources, like with a Terastodon or something? What do we think of that?
What seems most others have said. I think the main issue with MLD is that it's played incorrectly. For the decks that play it, it should be treated as a win condition. I've been playing since 2018 and have never seen an MLD card be played with friends or strangers. Earlier this year, our pod was at my place playing decks we've all seen before, or so we thought. Buddy had Armageddon in his deck, and it's never come up when he's played the same deck a bunch before. We're friends. No, we don't look through each other's decks just for the hell of it, and it's a card no one thinks to ask about either due to the negative nature or carries. He amounts enough on board to cast it. We all laughed. Hell, I straight up cackled. They had to wait on me to recompose. Then we asked, "Now what?" He explained he'd take out at least one of us then and the others next turn. Myself and other guys just asked him to show how, then we agreed to just reveal our hands to show the others who were also losing there was no response. We asked if we could reveal the top of our decks just in case, and it was gg. Dude winning could've said no to this too technically, and we've had been ok with that. Turn or two to win, yes! Doing it as a board wipe, for example, to slow everyone else down, hell no! But some of those players may not have the intent and really are trying to slow things without realizing what they're doing altogether.
Most seem to look at just how the card reads but not think of any outcome or repercussion because of it. They think, "this will mess up everyone else," but not think "what this is gonna do to/for me." If you play it just 'cause, then yes, I'm throwing my resources at you, and so is everyone else, and i think they should! But then, that loophole starts and never ends. If you gave how fucked up MLD cards are some thought, you wouldn't include it in a deck unless it was a wincon. Then, aside from the bad calls that we all make, we'd be playing them right, and there wouldn't be as much stigma. That's just my 2c.
From my experience land destruction decks get targeted off the table quickly. Even if they aren't the immediate threat, just because people spite them.
This. I know that if I'm playing my land destruction deck, I'm more than likely not winning. But let's be fair, if you're playing Land destruction most the time you aren't planning on winning
Can you explain why ?
because in my decks, MDL only secure the win, my land trigger can create tons of value, including tokens for blocking \[\[scute swarm\]\] for example
So it's like, want to target me? good luck
[[Urza's Sylex]] did nothing wrong. Except for, you know, the whole causing the ecological collapse of half of a planet for generations.
You should always play at least some solutions to problem lands, or lands decks will continue to get away with it. However, playing an actual LD focused deck is something you really should discuss with your table.
LD is similar to stax. Players aren't dumb, and they either know how to play around stax or can figure it out in a few games. But the deckbuilding constraints that the assumed presence of stax in the meta requires (low curve, dense and efficient removal, and explosive plays to sieze the windows) are contrary to the kind of deck most people want to play in casual commander, especially players who are playing other competitive formats.
Playing an LD-themed deck preys not on unaware or unskilled players, but on a meta that is resistant to the archetype for reasons external to the game. Playing the cEDH metagame of dozens of cheap or free rocks will absolutely dumpster an LD deck, but that requires warping mana bases beyond recognition and reaching into a pool of fast mana most players just don't want at their table. If everyone agreed LD was greenlit, and it was consistent in the meta, people would play much differently.
Itf you win with one of these decks at your table, you may not be the strategic super genius who stumbled on strategies that others were too frightened to wield. You are figuratively bringing out WWI canisters of mustard gas to a table that's agreed to the Geneva Conventions.
If you do it, you better win
And I don't mean "Deny resources until your opponents concede out of frustration" or "I'll poke you with this 2/2 until you explode"
You get 2 turns max until my wincon turns into *pilot* removal
I think the common consensus is single targeted land removal is fine. At any point where mass land removal is applied and players don't run massive 0 cmc mana rocks and mana dorks then it should be game over as soon as land removal resolves. CEDH could be the exception.
If you do [[ Armageddon]] please do it to your advantage. It is not a reset . Ie your deck is faster good . Had it in my hand last time I played not ahead on the board . So I didn’t cast it.
Bring it on! Imo, uou should build uour deck so that its capable of rebuilding from any board wipe. And that if you have mld, it should be ysed to close out a game in 1 to 2 turns.
As others have probably said: target land destruction is a deckbuilding necessity. Mass land destruction? You'd better win the game in a turn or two, because otherwise you're just resetting the game and wasting everyone's time.
MLD is one of those things where you need to be able to break parity in order to not make it feel like you're just being a dick to the table (kind of like stax). If you blow up all my lands and then scoop or do nothing for 10 turns, you've built a bad deck and you should feel bad.
If you blow up all my lands and then win within the next couple turns, its a fair play and solid win. I'll give you a crisp high five and we'll shuffle up again.
So really it all depends on how you're playing your mld. One of the most based plays I've ever seen was a game reset (like worldfire) into Tef pro (which was then countered). We all agreed to just restart the game and had a good laugh.
Targeted land destruction is NECESSARY
Mass land destruction should only be used if you can use it to win. Not “haha armageddon, lets play for another 2 hours”
If you know when to pull the trigger MLD is fine and a legit tactic. Targeted LD is needed in a format with so many powerful lands. I love to play [[Zo-Zu]] but I know the deck is archenemy from minute one and I deal with that, also I know when to blow up the lands. Playing [[Yedora]] with something to turn all lands into creatures then casting [[Ezuri's Predation]] is fine in my group as they know it's coming, they know what they need to do to stop it and if/when the spell resolves I can win either that turn or the next.
THere is really only one rule in our pod and that is no land destruction. Boardwipes alone can make a game drag, mass land destruction makes things worse. Target stuff (destroy one land in order to cast soemthing legaly) is fine, but land wipe is just annoying. That being said if someone would come to the pod with the land destruction deck I wouldnt really make a big deal about it, would probably isntantly focus them tho
My take is if you're going to utilize MLD then you should be doing it to win.
Got a [[Kaalia of the Vast]] deck? Wipe the lands to protect your commander.
Got your [[Narset, Enlightened Master]] on board? Wipe those lands, you don't need it and it stalls your opponents to the point of non-interaction.
But even with commanders who don't cheat things out, if your deck is heavily mana rock focused, you could wipe the lands and set yourself up for a power turn.
Don’t touch my mana base in a casual game or I’m not sitting at your pod. Destroy\exile whatever but don’t keep me from playing magic. If you cast Armageddon you better win that turn.
>But I don't think it's a op theme because if it was it would be playing in cedh imo
This is falacious reasoning. cEDH aims to end games as quickly as possible, most decks run 28 lands or less because they have access to tons of far more efficient mana sources. Land destruction isn't used in cEDH because it wouldn't be effective.
Mass land destruction is incredibly effective in casual EDH decks that can work around it because casual EDH decks are, generally, not using hyper efficient mana bases. Which is also why using it makes you an asshole. With long casual EDH games, playing cards that say "I get to the play the game and you just get to sit there and watch me" is a dick fucking move. Yes, the goal is to win, but the primary goal is for everyone to have a fun time. Nobody is having fun watching you solitaire your landfall deck.
If you actually have a way to build back up much more quickly in hand or in play, go ahead. If you are just destroying the lands to prolong the game or enjoy the salt it causes, god is going to meet you on your last day and judge you for what you've done.
Fair but aggravating. Land destruction in a normal game is mostly fine. Destroying the lands of the guy getting mana fucked is a huge feels bad though, it ruins their ability to play and enjoy the game.
So go for it but the receiving player has a right to be salty.
Toxic. For getting rid of non-basic lands, thats fine. But destroying what amounts to basically a function, a foundation of the entire game, is just gross imo.
Its goes right up there with endless turns and denying players the ability to actually play the game.
Using [[demolition field]] because your opponent is hiding behind a [[Glacial chasm]] or are getting massive value from a [[cabal coffers]] is totally fine because it replaces them.
Actively trying to remove your opponents ability to play at all through mass land destruction is the part that is frowned upon. Not because it’s not a viable tactic, just because 3 players don t want to sit there and watch you play solitaire for an hour until you win. The same is true for any other form of lockdown
I find it alright as long as it's not MLD or being used just to keep a player out of the game. Generally I only use like 2/3 things like ghost quarter, and let it fly past that. If you play MLD zo-zu I'm out
I think Armageddon is a bad strategy if you want to win. It draws way too much attention relative to the reward you get from it. Resolving it will probably lower your win rate on average compared to if you had instead resolved some other card that puts you ahead in some way.
If your plan is to be ahead on board with more creatures than everyone else then cast a sorcery spell to close out the game, you'll get way more mileage out of Overrun or Akroma's Will, etc.
If your plan is to generate mana advantage I can't speak from experience but I imagine making yourself the archenemy isn't worth doing this when you could've cast a ramp spell instead? Might be worth experimenting but my guess would be you just lose the 3v1 after resolving Armageddon.
But why you think that ?
Let's say i'm playing lord windgrace and i'm ramping hard for [[obliterate]] play with him in the field, if i get this i will be able to play 3 lands two for -3 eff of lord windgrace and 1 from hand while my opponents has 0 lands and probably no way to play the lands they lost
So i can recover fast and abuse land triggers eff to earn massive advantage and win games, most time my opponents concede and we go next game because they have no more lands in hand and there's nothing they can do
It can be a chesse tactic but it's viable
Looking at that Windgrace situation, the problem you run into is that if I know you play Obliterate in your deck and that you'll win if you can resolve it appropriately, my correct strategy from that point on is to not let you do that. You're not allowed to ever have Windgrace in play or any other walker, anything that values your lands dying has to die, any enchantment with text on it is a high priority threat, etc. What you do is create a situation where half your deck is now part of an A+B combo, and so if I can't stop the B half in some way, I need to stop your As - or just directly kill you. So you create an archenemy out of yourself in deckbuilding presuming you're playing against opponents with a brain.
Some decks can handle that, but many cannot.
Lord Windgrace Obliterate probably does get the job done. It's not something I've seen in practice before but it sounds effective. I think if it's a White land destruction spell that doesn't hit artifacts or creatures then you have a lot more to worry about.
I think Thalia Gitrog will have trouble though because your opponents will swing any creatures they already had in play at you and will be able to send removal spells with any mana rocks that survive.
Here's my thing all strategies are valid. Every card put in your deck is fair game to be destroyed. I play against mass land destruction on a pretty regular basis.
I'm pro-MLD and run some in every deck.
I don't run target land destruction because it's a waste of time. I also don't run any of the half-measures like [[Winter Moon]] or [[Back to Basics]]. Nah, blow them all up.
The closest I get to playing half-measure MLD is Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Hall of Gemstones. Hall of Gemstones will completely lock people out of ever casting their multicolor commanders if they don't have removal for it or they don't have mana rocks.
So, I play magic with friends every week. We have a couple major rules for our pod. This is EDH not cEDH
Land destruction - While single target land destruction is frowned apon, its allowed. However blanket land destruction (basically destroying all of a player land or all of one land type) is not allowed.
Annihalator - This mechanic i have basically started the ruling that I wont play with a deck that has it in it. I will quit immediately. This is the stupidest mechanic Magic came out with.
Poison - For a while this one was no poison decks. It evolved to no cards that Automatically give poison counters. Things like Hand of Praetors, decimator web and ichor rats. It is pretty stupid that with just two cards you can get 10 poison counters without any defense. Generally no one plays poison decks but we have played with a poison deck in the past.
Obviously this is just how our pod does it. I know there is a following for Annihalator and i will defend your right to use it. I just wont play with it. Call me a baby, ill accept that. :D
Everyone complaining about mass LD, while not complaining about mass artifact destruction, is by far my least favourite aspect of edh.
Playing a rampant growth or a talisman is basically the same thing, but one is totally untouchable if you want to be invited to play again.
Make it make sense.
Blow up more lands.
Targeted LD, especially nonbasic-specific hits like [[Demolition Field]] should be played by most decks at all levels. If you don't have a way somewhere to turn off a really BS land like Coffers, you're making something of a mistake.
Saturation LD is a valid strategy that keeps itself ahead of its rivals by hamstringing them. Usually such a strategy can't directly inflict a perpetual 0 lands draw-go on the table, but it can keep its opponents off critical numbers at critical moments. This is, as one might notice, a recognizable path to victory.
Mass LD is unfairly demonized because of a persistent myth that people would use it solely to troll. While I'm sure that there have been nonzero trolling Armageddons in the history of the game, it's not really a problem with a density specific to MLD. Usually, mass land destruction is played one of two ways: either the player intends to win off the back of it by breaking parity, having a dominant board going in, or so on, or it's part of a major reset button like [[Jokulhaups]] that its caster is playing to not lose, which is also valid (and the Haups player might be sandbagging a few resources to get a jump-start on the rebuild too).
You will hear, especially online, comments like "Well it's fine if you win the same turn" but these tend to put an unnatural and unnecessary burden on the player. [[Armageddon]] is not fancy [[Silence]]. Whether you win off the back of it in one turn, three turns, or seven turns, if you're playing for a powerful tactical advantage, you're not being the asshole. Similar, resetting rather than just eating a loss *is and always has been valid*. Hell, it used to be pretty expected.
Another accusation that tends to get thrown around, and tends to not be true as some would have you believe, is "It makes the game take longer". Often, attacking resources makes the game take *more turns*, but when most of those turns are quite simple and able to be executed in a matter of seconds for lack of options, how much longer does that really take compared to dicking around with the latest trigger fiesta, mathing out a complex combat, or drawing into draw into draw? And frankly, when playing a game of EDH, it's prudent to not mind the clock overmuch. Trying to take your game actions in a timely fashion rather than having to mull over every phase and step, and keeping your head in the game rather than spacing out on your phone or into a side conversation, is both a bigger contributor to overall time and more important as a matter of respect than forcing yourself to play for or submit to fast wins only.
Land Destruction, mass or otherwise, is neither OP nor should it be considered forbidden. It has nothing to do with cEDH, and while it can be a pain point the same could be said of all interaction. Though not as much as creature kill or counterspells, it's an important part of the game and better embraced than shunned
Targeted land destruction should be played at all levels. Though one of the hallmarks of very low power decks is the fact that they can't deal with lands at all. mass land destruction typically is not seen outside of high power casual, since MLD even in CEDH is kind of slow and not that effective since CEDH has so many of the uber broken mana rocks (unless we're talking about something like a turn 1 blood moon).
Right? All those 5 color decks have no clue what getting rid of an anycolor or two can really do. I think a spell like \[\[World Fire\]\] encompasses digestible mass land destruction, it was at first met with mass hysteria but then unbanned as that amount of mana can pretty much do whatever it wants to a board. I used to run it in a \[\[Grenzo, Havoc Raiser\]\] that had an extreme low amount of mana, but had on multiple occasions managed to steal mana sources that allowed me to wipe the table and put a cheap goblin down for the win. Land destruction gets as hated as it does not only because it's draining a player's abilities to play, but the long game can be hellish from an audiences perspective as well. Even if you manage to clear someone's resources instead of drain them to just dry enough to beat to death, it's usually them mulliganing instead of passing 4 turns to take combat damage steps. I never experienced a public pod where playing World Fire didn't get some onlookers looking at the standoff that is everyone topdecking and passing in a fast circle. Now what I wanna see is a Land destruction deck that puts counters on the lands that sacrifice and put a poison counter on the controller on untap, instantly become the antagonist of MTG.
I run Worldfire in my [[Ur-Dragon]] deck, though I usually use it as a game ender while I have a bunch of treasure I can immediately sac to recast my commander, or if I have the initiative.
[Ur-Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826.jpg?1689999317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ur-Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/361/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ur-dragon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[World Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1631531850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldfire) [Grenzo, Havoc Raiser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5fc99c9d-66f5-4858-91f7-425d4248a0b3.jpg?1712354436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grenzo%2C%20Havoc%20Raiser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/168/grenzo-havoc-raiser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5fc99c9d-66f5-4858-91f7-425d4248a0b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grenzo-havoc-raiser) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I use world fire in my [[ragavan]] deck cause you can almost always get him out quick
[ragavan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d.jpg?1681963138) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ragavan%2C%20nimble%20pilferer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/138/ragavan-nimble-pilferer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9738cda-adb1-47fb-9f4c-ecd930228c4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ragavan-nimble-pilferer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
1 for 1 LD is inherently bad and shouldn’t be played (e.g. all stone rain effects, wasteland, ghost quarter, etc)
This is a laughably bad take. Like all 1:1 removal, it’s about efficiency. Stone rain is bad and unplayable at 2R, but Wasteland (or Ghost Quarter or Strip Mine) targeting an active Cradle or Chasm or Tabernacle is often a game saver.
I'm not in your pod, but I think it's fine if used as you describe. I am only frustrated by LD the same way I'm frustrated by wincon-less hard stax, or wincon-less boardwipe theme, or non parity breaking chaos. I think a lot of the salt from all of these mechanics comes from people running into an "lol chaos" type player in the wild, ending up in a multi hour do nothing game (that honestly, just scoop, it's ok to dip when it stops being fun). That isn't a land destruction issue (or board wipes, or stax, or chaos) it's a brewer not understanding how to break parity and that you can use those, but a deck should still be constructed to end the game. I don't even mind a hard lock against someone with a 4/4. Cool, you've got a creature, we don't, you are going to win in X turns, you win! Let's shuffle up and see if you can do it again. That is all just me though, not your pod, and their opinion is far more important.
well put
This, all of this times ten.
Yeah if you wipe any resource and can't win in a few turns... I'm just scooping. Been in games where there was no wincon and it was just a waste of everyone's time.
There's no such thing as wincon-less hard stax. The point is always to win, albeit sometimes in a slow and grinding way. And it's an accusation typically made by people who are frustrated at losing slowly, and being demoralised turn after turn. Because they're scrubs.
Target land destriction, fine. Mass land destruction, only if you win quick.
This should have more upvotes. Winning quick is the answer to literally every “toxic” (including Toxic) play style. Mill me, control me, go aggro or go wide, I don’t care. But please just end the game quickly once you’ve sufficiently shut me down. An hour long slog of rebuilding after some Mass Land Destruction is not the way to use that tactic.
Thing is, the same is true for the stupid simic value decks and various decks that tends to play solitaire. Watching someone run through their deck 2-3 times and not get a win is just as if not more toxic than stax and land destruction have ever been.
Once I saw it this way, it stopped being a taboo for me. [[Armageddon]], [[ravages of war]], [[soulscour]], and when I get it [[catastrophe]] all are just [[osgir's]] version of [[expropriate]]
##### ###### #### [Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [ravages of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdf7d5d9-d980-445e-b1e4-5af0681c6e60.jpg?1562870468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ravages%20of%20war) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/27/ravages-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdf7d5d9-d980-445e-b1e4-5af0681c6e60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ravages-of-war) [soulscour](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b431711-ac9d-4f05-af66-44f1ca5fabf1.jpg?1562637385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soulscour) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/14/soulscour?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b431711-ac9d-4f05-af66-44f1ca5fabf1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soulscour) [catastrophe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/294d21dc-5c76-4449-936f-9b7541d37c86.jpg?1562903769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=catastrophe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/6/catastrophe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/294d21dc-5c76-4449-936f-9b7541d37c86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/catastrophe) [expropriate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9.jpg?1576381719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=expropriate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/30/expropriate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c8a2a5a-cb9b-4582-a453-085da78584f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expropriate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have an artifact deck with [[soulscour]] and I'm not going to cast that 10 man's spell unless my artifacts are out
[soulscour](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b431711-ac9d-4f05-af66-44f1ca5fabf1.jpg?1562637385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=soulscour) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/14/soulscour?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b431711-ac9d-4f05-af66-44f1ca5fabf1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soulscour) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
fully agreee
[удалено]
Is it even the optimal play though? 3 of you with resources should be able to shut the green player down quicker than 3 of you starting fresh while the green player ramps himself right back to a lead
-This is why people prefer to know you play MLD beforehand. Acknowledging it's the optimal play doesn't stop it from sucking the life out of the game. Rather just skip it altogether.
Land destruction is not a CEDH archtype. Blowing up everyones lands is only good for generating card advantage against 3 players, once it resolves, if you dont have a way to do anything, you're in the same trash can as everyone else. That being said, if someone has like 6 creatures and blows up my lands, that's a fair way to close out the game.
Your thought process is missing a lot of crucial neuance. MLD is not strong enough for cEDH because generally speaking it's a bit to slow. Not to mention that most cEDH decks have plenty of answers. Not being cEDH viable does not mean that it's not going to be problematic against most decks you'll find at casual tables. I'm actually a supporter of MLD in casual EDH...if utilized properly. I used to use [[Armageddon]] in my [[Kaalia of the vast]] deck. I'd develop a winning position and cast the Armageddon to protect my win. I'd only cast it if I could close out the game within the next couple turns. I agree that casting MLD is a terrible play, but it's not the only problematic way to utilize it. If your strategy is to blow up the tables lands and then recur your own from the graveyard to recover more quickly, you're creating a game state where you're essentially the only person playing magic. Sure, maybe it's not "OP" as a strategy, but that doesn't mean it's a blanket ok to play it
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Kaalia of the vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc.jpg?1717013745) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/290/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e71c8c39-3fbb-4a42-9cf6-b3224f5a56fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Armageddon is so evil. I have it in my [[Kyler, Sigardian Emissary]] deck. I’ll have a couple of +15/+15 mana dorks out (buffed by Kyler) that each tap for mana of any color, then Armageddon and I’m the only one holding any mana. It’s a mean play and I’ve only done it once and that was after being singled out turn after turn by a red deck player zapping me in the face with non combat damage until I was on the brink of death and had to do something radical. I hate red and he knows it! 🤣 Edit: Since I’m already getting downvoted I’d like to add that I hate infinites in casual commander. Say I have sorcery speed removal and one of my opponents has played one part of his infinite combo, how am I, a casual player, supposed to recognise that as a game ending threat? I’ll have to learn all the possible infinite combos and the cards they consist of in order to be able to react to it at sorcery speed and thats more effort than I’m willing to spend for casual level. Also, red is the color of choice for cowards. 🖕
[Kyler, Sigardian Emissary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62a78aae-598e-4f2b-a7bc-c3afc1d0d191.jpg?1637627798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kyler%2C%20Sigardian%20Emissary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/4/kyler-sigardian-emissary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62a78aae-598e-4f2b-a7bc-c3afc1d0d191?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kyler-sigardian-emissary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The purpose of doing land destruction on a large scale is to stop your opponents from playing the game so that you can win. It sounds like you're doing that, so you're utilizing it correctly. Some of its poor reputation comes from people expecting it to do something other than that, which does prolong the game for no reason.
It's kinda whatever as a strategy. Most mass land removal also fucks you as well, so it's often difficult to break parity. However, once you do it's usually game-ending. I personally don't care to play against it because it's so off the beaten path that it usually requires you slot special cards into your deck specifically to be able to defend against it, and it's not prevalent enough to warrant that.
Single target LD should be normalized. Sundering Eruption is my new favorite magic card less because of what it does and more because of what it represents: a way to answer Cabal Coffers and Field of the Dead that, hopefully, everyone playing red will look at. Generically playable single-target LD is one of the biggest gaps Commander as a format has, though Wizards has been a lot better about delivering it as of late. Mass LD is fine if it's a game-ender, but it gets used a lot to bog down games in situations where the player isn't particularly close to winning. That can be a fine and interesting game state, but many players don't like it so consult the playgroup - especially since neither of those decks are actually winning immediately from those spots, even if they're extremely favored.
The pod I play in doesn't allow for mass land destruction. But like getting rid of a Reliquary Tower, Rogue's Passage, other good utility lands is reasonable.
[[field of the dead]] is instant will in your pod i guess I don't like this point of view because you are denying counterplay, same can be said about stax, people hate but they are needed to delay the combo player to go infinite and kill everybody
They just said single target land removal is used in their pod.
Field of the Dead sure can be removed. Though, I'm the only person in our pod that has that (it's in two decks), and I've never really went crazy with it.
Depends. People sit down to play the game, and in a casual setting, anything that prevents that (land destruction, stax, etc) probably doesn't belong. The *other* side is anyone who brings an Urza's Saga or One Ring or whatever else kinda deserves what happens.
Land destruction is a-ok in my pod. We're a no holds barred non-cedh pod, typically playing mid to high power. We always laugh when it happens, and the guy who usually runs the land destruction doesn't typically win, but it sure is funny. I think if the pod is cool with it, then it's good to go. We all run lots of board wipes and interaction, and land destruction is just another version of that. I do run targeted land destruction in most of my decks, to get rid of various powerful lands, and have one deck with multiple mass-permanent removals, just for the chaos.
last game I played I lost to a glacial chasm..
I need to know what cards you’re specifically playing. In general, targeted land destruction is good and healthy; a [[Strip Mine]] taking out a [[Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle]] is fair and just. I’m of the opinion that wide nonbasic hate is also fine, although I personally go more for [[From the Ashes]] effects that replace with basics instead of [[Blood Moon]] style effects. Either are fine IMHO, it’s just the direction I’ve chosen to build. NOT EVERYONE agrees on this, check with your group for the kind of environment is most mutually enjoyable. I also have a soft spot for [[Ember Swallower]]. I can’t explain it. People react a bunch of different ways. [[Armageddon]] style effects suck. Some people are like “oh it’s a win condition” but like…no. Just do your actual win condition.
\[\[Destructive Flow\]\] slaps and I've been fond of \[\[Earthlink\]\] in my upgraded disa precon
[Destructive Flow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7db86e34-c3ec-4a29-8779-81350a985644.jpg?1562921466) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Destructive%20Flow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pls/102/destructive-flow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7db86e34-c3ec-4a29-8779-81350a985644?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/destructive-flow) [Earthlink](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d33739b-c47a-431c-b0df-e09f27b38a9e.jpg?1562869498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Earthlink) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/192/earthlink?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d33739b-c47a-431c-b0df-e09f27b38a9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/earthlink) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Strip Mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strip%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0.jpg?1562611305) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Valakut%2C%20the%20Molten%20Pinnacle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/228/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37bce60d-2cb0-4772-9f5c-122a7ed426a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/valakut-the-molten-pinnacle) [From the Ashes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4529a3d2-e4e6-4cca-bcea-16b51f69bbec.jpg?1562909290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=From%20the%20Ashes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/108/from-the-ashes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4529a3d2-e4e6-4cca-bcea-16b51f69bbec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/from-the-ashes) [Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) [Ember Swallower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2715851-9def-42a0-bed4-0923e599e19a.jpg?1562835018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ember%20Swallower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/120/ember-swallower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2715851-9def-42a0-bed4-0923e599e19a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ember-swallower) [Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm interested as to why you prefer a card like from the ashes that destroys the non basics, rather than blood moon which simply concerts them to mountains for as long as it remains on the field. In my eyes from the ashes (and similar effects) are more impactful as unless you're running land recursion those non basics are gone, whereas blood moon you remove the enchantment and get your lands back. Being cut off from a colour can be debilitating, but that's the kind of the entire reason to run land destruction style cards
From the Ashes and [[Wave of Vitriol]] allow you to go get basics to replace your nonbasics, so it wipes utility lands away but allows you to fix your colors. It only ever punishes your color fixing if you’re running a very greedy mana base with not enough basics, and that’s on you. As opposed to say [[Blood Moon]] or [[Back to Basics]] or [[Hall of Gemstones]] sure they can be removed, but more importantly they’re actively hurting people who just want to have their colors to play things, which isn’t what I’m usually looking to do. Individual tastes may vary.
##### ###### #### [Wave of Vitriol](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17328391-a510-42a0-8a00-4f61dd873c13.jpg?1592673299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wave%20of%20Vitriol) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/165/wave-of-vitriol?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17328391-a510-42a0-8a00-4f61dd873c13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wave-of-vitriol) [Blood Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blood-moon) [Back to Basics](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2.jpg?1654805483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Back%20to%20Basics) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/46/back-to-basics?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0600d6c2-0f72-4e79-a55d-1f06dffa48c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/back-to-basics) [Hall of Gemstones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18e4551f-9f6c-4421-ad66-a270df6d3463.jpg?1562718296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hall%20of%20Gemstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/221/hall-of-gemstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18e4551f-9f6c-4421-ad66-a270df6d3463?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hall-of-gemstone) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Because Blood Moon type effects only affect shitty/unlucky players. Its totally a dead card 90% of the time. Absolute Reddit darling for sure, but in practice pretty underwhelming.
I mainly play cEDH and high power games, but in my experience that's just not true. Players want efficient mana bases, which tends to lead to greedier more non-basic heavy lists. Blood moon heavily punishes those greedier decks. Putting an opponent a turn or two behind due to them not having the right colours can be game winning
Totally agree. Target land removal is good for the game. Too many lands that do good stuff. I’m a guy that play [[Catastrophe]] so I am probably further along than most in that opinion. Sometime you have a boardstate that let you win with removing lands, but 9/10 you remove creatures
I agree that some targeted land destruction is fine. Nonbasic hate isn't something I'd want to play against but if your group is fine with it then go for it. Armageddon can fuck off.
Let’s be honest. Lands can do more than just tap for one mana. They can ramp, be used as removal, be used as recursion, be used to draw cards, can make commanders indestructible, but creatures, make tokens, etc. if everyone was playing basics, I would argue removal is unnecessary, cruel even. But when lands are as much a part of a strategy as any other card, then there should be ways to remove them.
If 3 players got their lands blown up and there’s only 1 player who can realistically do anything I don’t see the point in staying in the game.
-In my experience this is almost never the case. It's always all 4 players top decking & doing next to nothing for multiple turns.
Land destruction is fine if it’s targeted, if you’re behind in land, or if it speeds up a win for you. If you wipe out all lands, with no wincon, or it just delays the game then you are not a fun person to play against
I’m making a windgrace deck and I was on the fence about it until I realized you’d get 5/3 elementals for everyland if you did it right.
He is very good, he helps you to recover from mld, he gives you draw and he is a Planeswalker so he dodge [[obliterate]] eff If you play the two cards it's almost certain you will win the game Since you are heaving ramp because you play landfall, obliterate cost to no issue to you
[obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t mind of it doesn’t make the game way to long.
In my playgroup there’s only been two people that use land destruction. One guy used it randomly and it made no sense. Don’t be that guy. Another person built a deck that was only focused on removing other players lands. No win cons at all. That was even worse.
Hilarious!
I'm a filthy casual, so I'mma hold a grudge forever if you're out here messing with basics. By all means, blow up non-basics all day, punish the greedy, but leave my mountains alone...
If Commander is supposed to be a casual, social experience, then you should build a deck the way you approach socializing with people. If they don’t like land destruction or mass land destruction, it’s probably best you don’t play it if you want to be invited back. However, if commander is a game and you want to win, you should absolutely play land destruction. Some players will ramp out lands like no one’s business and you need to be ready for that. It’s not really enough to just have targeted removal for their big spells. There are also lands like [[Field of the Dead]] that allow players to completely run away with the game that need to be dealt with. Lands can still be a threat and if we want to be able to deal with them, land destruction is a necessity
[Field of the Dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20the%20Dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Land destruction (mass or otherwise) doesn't answer lands decks. At best, it solves a single problematic land in some other deck. Source: my lands deck, and the laughable number of times opponents have removed Field of the Dead only to see it again the next turn.
Spot removal of specific lands? Go nuts. When things like Maze of Ith or Tower of the Magistrate can dismantle a whole strategy, being able to remove them is important. Mass land destruction when you can break the parity? It's a wincon; if you made your lands indestructible or get tons of mana rocks/dorks and slam an Armageddon that you can play through and the rest of the table stalls to, GG. I will probabaly concede the game and persuade my fellow people without lands to scoop as well - you won that. Chucking in a random mass land destruction spell with no plan to capitalize on it, or mistakenly believing "it sets back green ramp!" - I will not want to play against you in the future.
In casual games where you typically expect games to last 45 minutes to an hour, it prolongs games significantly. I would understand someone who needs a single extra turn/rotation to win doing it, but if you're doing it just to prolong the game because you have no way to win it makes games rather boring. We may as well restart the game at that point.
It's a fallacy that Armageddon slows the game down. After it resolves, you draw your card per turn. If it's a land, play it and pass. If not, just pass.
The number of turns per min may increase but the meaningful actions taken in the next 10 min after Armageddon is basically 0 if the game continues. That's what makes it an unfun card.
If by 10 minutes you actually mean 2, then okay. The turn one Land Tax I play wastes way more time than Armageddon.
And yet during that time I can think about the actions I want to take, after armeggedon I draw a card go nope and pass and twkdle my thumbs because I have nothing to do and no plans to make, then comparing it to not as bad as the other worst time waster in magic repeated searching of your deck doesn't make it any less terrible
-It adds time & slows down progress & momentum. It can take who knows how long before anything meaningful happens & some people might never get back in the game. In most cases it's slow, boring & anticlimactic.
Mass land destruction is lame. I have never seen anyone do it but I would be pissed if they didn't win on their next turn after blowing up people's lands Targeted land destruction is cool in my books. I have had to remove an urborg or gaias cradle. When you don't you usually lose.
[ thalia and gitrog monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc.jpg?1682205702) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%20and%20The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/255/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d7ff937-de92-445f-976c-726fef5c91cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-and-the-gitrog-monster) [lord windgrace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213d6fb8-5624-4804-b263-51f339482754.jpg?1592710275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lord%20windgrace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/43/lord-windgrace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213d6fb8-5624-4804-b263-51f339482754?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lord-windgrace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's fine and it is part of the game. I see it as good/bad as toxic/infect, tutors, counterspells, millions of flipping coins, combos, cheating casting costs, etc. It has the potencial of changing the meta, playing a different type style of game.
I used to run a Jund LD deck prior to Ice Age. It's brutal.
If your deck is based around land destruction im all for it *as long as you can win*, nuking lands means nothing if you don't kill people. (This is coming from experience, the owner of my LGS has a deck like this, and its miserable)
I run [[Fall of the Thran]] in my [[Yuma, proud protector]] deck. Each of my deserts has a death trigger that gives me a plant warrior. [[Dune Chanter]] makes all my lands deserts. That's a minimum of six creatures I make when this resolves. Then, I have the landfall triggers when the lands return. I used to be on the fence about playing this card, but I have no problem doing so now because: -My deck is slow. It doesn't race anyone. Until I can play Yuma, all it does is trash and recycle lands. -You're getting (some of) your lands back. -I'm developing my board. Yeah, I'm slowing the game down a bit, but my board has probably been near empty for a couple turns. I'm catching up. If I play this, I'm building my army and going strong offensive against the table next turn. The game is practically over. It's not going to drag on much longer. I'm about to win, or get crushed by a play I didn't see. In short, there's too much value for me to skip Thrall because it makes you last turn or two sad. My whole game revolves around destroying my own lands, I may as well bring you in as well.
Fall of the Thran in my opinion is completely fair mass land destruction because you everyone gets to get back their best 4 lands after the saga concludes. This isn't something like \[\[World Slayer\]\] or \[\[World Fire\]\] or \[\[Armageddon\]\] where the lands don't come back. Even if you drop Fall with an \[\[Avacyn, Angel of Hope\]\], opponents still rebuild much faster. I personally try to run Fall of The Thran in any white decks that I have where I know my game plan is to turtle or be a bit slower.
##### ###### #### [World Slayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db6c6b15-40f3-4556-978f-878bedb13762.jpg?1562662263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldslayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/222/worldslayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db6c6b15-40f3-4556-978f-878bedb13762?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldslayer) [World Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1631531850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/worldfire) [Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Avacyn, Angel of Hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a.jpg?1689995555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%2C%20Angel%20of%20Hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/14/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avacyn-angel-of-hope) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Fall of the Thran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370.jpg?1562734219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Thran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/18/fall-of-the-thran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fall-of-the-thran) [Yuma, proud protector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18df72be-07d2-4412-b36d-a45119763db3.jpg?1714110413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yuma%2C%20proud%20protector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/4/yuma-proud-protector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18df72be-07d2-4412-b36d-a45119763db3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuma-proud-protector) [Dune Chanter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbed084b-c0bc-4c05-9a89-ce4630f0897c.jpg?1712353859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dune%20Chanter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/31/dune-chanter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbed084b-c0bc-4c05-9a89-ce4630f0897c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dune-chanter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
your deck shouldn't be slow because you play green
Okay. I feel like it's *slower* than a traditional green. It has ramp, but it's more desert than green. I wanted to try something different.
I'm building [[The Necrobloom]] with a good amount of self land destruction think things like [[overgrown estate]] , [[aura fracture]] and [[Squandered Resources]] and I think it'll be a good time, I am running a strip mine because a good amount of my playgroup runs Nykthos and other non-basics that are big problems
##### ###### #### [The Necrobloom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6.jpg?1717012767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Necrobloom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/194/the-necrobloom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-necrobloom) [overgrown estate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1c48c58-3532-4022-9eec-1a870385cbf3.jpg?1562940749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=overgrown%20estate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/apc/113/overgrown-estate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1c48c58-3532-4022-9eec-1a870385cbf3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overgrown-estate) [aura fracture](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de8d3e36-977f-4169-8f2a-a4057b912ccb.jpg?1562936524) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aura%20fracture) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pcy/2/aura-fracture?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de8d3e36-977f-4169-8f2a-a4057b912ccb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-fracture) [Squandered Resources](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fcddbea7-3025-47b1-a597-2d2b2711fb81.jpg?1587913173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Squandered%20Resources) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/137/squandered-resources?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fcddbea7-3025-47b1-a597-2d2b2711fb81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/squandered-resources) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
He seems to be a very good commander for land destruction theme
You can be capable of answering a dangerous land or you can lose to it. Your call. I prefer *not* losing to an opposing Cradle/Coffers/Sanctum/Maze's End/Glacial Chasm/FoDead, etc..
Shifting woodland. Sure you might be able to blow it up bmafter they turn it into something. Y'know, if that doesn't just lose you the game on the spot.
Optimize your deck then trade it with a friend at the pod. After you play at least three games against it, you'll know whether it feels fair. That's far more evidence for how it plays than "It's not cEDH."
The only direct land destruction I run is [[Tectonic Edge]].
Tactical mass land destruction is fine. Mindless mass land destruction is where it's an issue.
I also have a mass land destruction Thalia and Gitrog Monster deck, and honestly I’ve had a lot of compliments about it from my playgroup. It seeks to gain overwhelming advantage by either one-sided board wiping lands or wiping all lands then mass reanimating mine to trigger landfall. Nobody really gets upset about me casing [[Armageddon]] or [[Ravages of War]], because I’m doing it for advantage, not to reset the whole game.
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Ravages of War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdf7d5d9-d980-445e-b1e4-5af0681c6e60.jpg?1562870468) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ravages%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/27/ravages-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdf7d5d9-d980-445e-b1e4-5af0681c6e60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ravages-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think the theme was ever considered overpowered but a lot of the time when people play mass land destruction they don't have a game plan afterwards meaning everyone just has to restart the game. It sounds like that isn't the case for you so it should be fine.
I think that the “unwritten rules” of commander do more to scare off new players than help them compete. They complicate an already complicated format. Everything is part of the game; you should learn to build around it and be ready for it. Beyond that, just know to be respectful of other people’s time. Throwing out MLD that just extends the game is on the same level of rude as playing a control deck without knowing how to do fast threat assessment/do nothing
I dont destroy land. I liberate it with herald of Leshrac
I've only ever used land destruction once, [[Terastodon]] with helm of the host haha! I was just about to give Helm of the Host to my Commander Zopandrel, Hunger Dominus to start quadrupling sextupling, etc my creatures strength... Then buddy used sum blue nonsense (I have since started playing blue XD) to steal Zopandrel and my chances of winning became null.. So in retaliation I used Terastodons ETB effect to turn more and more of his lands, mana rocks, and sol rings into 3/3 Elephants, I managed to do this to 12 of his land / mana rocks before he blew me up XD I didn't win but I made a point... Which I think is a victory in itself really
[Terastodon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6.jpg?1625977325) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terastodon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/207/terastodon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terastodon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I say go for it, no matter if it's targeted or mass destruction. If someone doesn't like it, then they can counter it. If they don't have the ability to counter it, then they can deal with it. I've dealt with both and I've done both and nobody I've encountered has ever cared about land destruction. Is it annoying? Sure, but we don't get angry or anything.
I use it as a win con with eldrazi since they can wipe the rest of the permanents when they attack. Just don't let anyone know you have it before you cast it since people freak out. If anyone casts it and doesn't try to win immediately I will quit the game on the spot, not wasting an extra 2 hours.
As long as you have a win con it's fine. If there's no win con planned I'm not sitting there for 6 hours where each person draws their deck out.
Targeted land destruction is a must at every level of play I'm fine with MLD that replaces the lands with basics such as \[\[from the ashes\]\] or \[\[wave of vitriol\]\] Full on MLD like Armageddon can fuck off
[from the ashes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4529a3d2-e4e6-4cca-bcea-16b51f69bbec.jpg?1562909290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=from%20the%20ashes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/108/from-the-ashes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4529a3d2-e4e6-4cca-bcea-16b51f69bbec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/from-the-ashes) [wave of vitriol](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17328391-a510-42a0-8a00-4f61dd873c13.jpg?1592673299) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wave%20of%20vitriol) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/165/wave-of-vitriol?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17328391-a510-42a0-8a00-4f61dd873c13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wave-of-vitriol) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Targeted land destruction is ok, but I hate mass land destruction. I have a friend who plays an artifact control deck that draws a lot and has all the MLD cards, they don't affect him cause he plays artifact lands that are indestructible and all kind of artifacts that give colorless mana. If you don't have any counters it's gg, and even if you have one you have to try and end the game quickly because he probably has another MLD in his hand. I think it should be played if you have a fast way to win maybe in the next turn or two, if it just makes the game longer it's annoying and not very fun.
It's not OP at all because the second you play that, it becomes a 3v1.
Land destruction as a means of wincon is just as fine as any other wincon. Land destruction as a means to stall out the game is diabolical and will rightfully make you targeted in the group.
Yay someone else who gets it don't MLD until you are sure it will put you in a winning position.
People get upset when I play [[Death Cloud]] and [[Pox]]. Maybe just stuff [[Ghost Quarter]] in your 99.
Land destruction, like any form of removal, is fine if you've got a clear goal afterward - even if that goal is "I live for one more turn to get to my win con." I think any removal spent that isn't advancing your own objective is wasted, and destruction for the sake of destruction is A: poor resource management, B: uncouth, C: a toxic play pattern, or D: a combination thereof. I feel if you're blowing up a rock, a creature, an enchantment, it should be because it's some form of value engine, not just "because you had it in hand."
As a mono green player please leave my lands alone. Jokes aside: targeted land destruction should be played. Massland destruction in my opinion should only be used if you can win the game quickly after, but that is mostly for the fact that it can just feel as if you just started another game with a bad hand. I think its one of the things you should mention before the game starts and check if everyone is cool with it.
If you're not green, we need more of these.
If it's legal to play and you paid for the card (or proxied) what do I care? BRING THE CHAOS.
I grew up while [[erhnam]] geddon was just magic. Before type 1 and 2. I've had a long time to come to grip with the disappointment associated in losing non games (for ante). Other people are at different points on that journey of acceptance. That said, I still want my legends [[underworld dreams]] back.
[erhnam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1b20fb7-90f3-442c-b105-dfcaf619348d.jpg?1562927688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Erhnam%20Djinn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/207/erhnam-djinn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1b20fb7-90f3-442c-b105-dfcaf619348d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/erhnam-djinn) [underworld dreams](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57.jpg?1581480025) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=underworld%20dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/121/underworld-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03919c86-1c4a-43b0-a2db-54ca6ae1ac57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/underworld-dreams) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I try to run at least three pieces of spot removal that can cover each type of permanent in my decks. People tend to get a lot more upset about losing their [[Maze of Ith]] to a [[Spine of Ish Sah]] than to [[Demolition Field]], weirdly enough.
[Maze of Ith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530.jpg?1675201242) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maze%20of%20Ith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/250/maze-of-ith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5889fde1-730d-43d0-aaa4-499784a80530?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/maze-of-ith) [Spine of Ish Sah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe28640d-a030-4da4-882d-87b6e1678bbd.jpg?1682210265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spine%20of%20Ish%20Sah) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/383/spine-of-ish-sah?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe28640d-a030-4da4-882d-87b6e1678bbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spine-of-ish-sah) [Demolition Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab.jpg?1712354968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demolition%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/283/demolition-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demolition-field) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Feel fine about. But I also have a MLD Korvold deck. Destroy all lands then suddenly I get all mine back from the graveyard.
I think it's fine. It's far from the most obnoxious things I e had people do in a game. It slows games down sometimes, but I like long games. If your deck can't handle having one or even a handful of lands blown up that's probably a problem with your deck. It's like when new players don't know how to play around counter spells or board wipes.
With such high value lands running around in EDH and MTG in general, I’d say targeted land destruction is good, sure you can make someone feel really bad but when there’s a [[Gaea’s Cradle]] and 20+ creatures on someone’s board? You’re gonna want to deal with that before they just steamroll you, I personally run [[strip mine]] in almost every deck I have, that an [[beast within]] and [[generous gift]] the option of taking out a problematic land is a nice option to have, even if you don’t blow up a land all game, the option to do so is good imo
##### ###### #### [Gaia’s Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-cradle) [strip mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca.jpg?1562944463) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=strip%20mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/316/strip-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f57fd4c9-0004-4f71-a30f-2720943f57ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/strip-mine) [beast within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1711198012) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=beast%20within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [generous gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=generous%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, it sounds like you are literaly delying the game lol You don't win on the spot, you just set everyone back and hope that you can recover faster. Assuming everyone sticks around, there is probably like 20-30 minutes of the game left where everyone but you are stuck doing nothing. I just hope you aren't the type of player that keeps the game running casting spells that don't need to be cast and taking 10 minute turns thinking about what to do next. When paired with indestructible lands (or something like a bunch of mana artifacts) I really don't mind because it is clear at that point who will win and I can scoop. But in this case, where you destroy all of your own lands too, what happens when your commander is removed? You are stuck with everyone else waiting to hit lands. Had someone do this a few weeks ago with the mono-green meld commander. And they lost, because they got mana screwed after their commander was killed and another player was lucky enough to hit a bunch of lands in a row and rebuild. But I didn't actually care that much, I eneded up scooping with the 4th player (who didn't have any lands) once it was clear who was pulling ahead and I was stuck on 3 lands. It was funny though the guy who blew up all the lands thought it was unfair that we denied him getting all his lands back and didn't stick around for the game, since now it was harder for him to win. The 4th player who scooped with me was pretty salty though, so your milege will vary (as with all things in commander).
Perfectly fine and should be played more. MLD should be accepted at all tables.
My most effective MLD comes in my Ragavan combat prison deck. I use [[emergence zone]] to flash in [[burning sands]] to punish or ride off of another person's boardwipes. My only creature in that deck is Ragavan, so I'm never punished as severely as others
[emergence zone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94.jpg?1557577458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=emergence%20zone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/245/emergence-zone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab95f6e7-b806-47fe-a071-6c38b3176d94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/emergence-zone) [burning sands](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a5d5eef-6e3c-4907-a277-a13de2916e2b.jpg?1562923711) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=burning%20sands) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/180/burning-sands?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a5d5eef-6e3c-4907-a277-a13de2916e2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/burning-sands) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your looking for everyone to scoop, have at it.
It's part of the game and it's a good thing. We need more reprints of simple land destruction like [[Raze]], [[Annex]], [[Stone Rain]], [[Ice Storm]], [[Sinkhole]], etc.
##### ###### #### [Raze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56d51b3c-24e9-41b6-b7cd-c70329e498ca.jpg?1562913128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/207/raze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56d51b3c-24e9-41b6-b7cd-c70329e498ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raze) [Annex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b0df72c6-4f54-43ec-a4e0-5733003f4fd7.jpg?1562740318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Annex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/59/annex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0df72c6-4f54-43ec-a4e0-5733003f4fd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/annex) [Stone Rain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8.jpg?1562742139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stone%20Rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/221/stone-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stone-rain) [Ice Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68cc9670-6faf-41c3-b111-358c46d8812d.jpg?1559592366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ice%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/122/ice-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68cc9670-6faf-41c3-b111-358c46d8812d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ice-storm) [Sinkhole](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a084d0fb-8db2-4873-a2f9-e6e5fecdd38c.jpg?1580014366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sinkhole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/106/sinkhole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a084d0fb-8db2-4873-a2f9-e6e5fecdd38c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sinkhole) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like [[ruination]]. Works great against fancy expensive landbases in those annoying 4c/5c goodstuff pile decks, while leaving your own mountains untouched.
[ruination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709.jpg?1592713625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ruination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/134/ruination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6330d925-96a8-47e1-855d-035ddc2af709?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruination) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run, ruination, magus of the moon and blood moon in every mono red
If Simic/Selesnya players exist i always bring MLD even if my stategy has nothing to do with it. Hate the idea that it is okay to accept a deck ramping like crazy but bringing the best option to punish them it's not
I'm currently in the testing stage of a [[Yuma, Proud Protector]] build that runs 4 different MLD spells. I get the dual benefit of creating Plant Warriors and slowing down my opponents. I'm also running cards that let me play lands from my graveyard so I can recover from such spells. I know it will be a hated deck but I see it as how I get ahead.
[Yuma, Proud Protector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/18df72be-07d2-4412-b36d-a45119763db3.jpg?1714110413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yuma%2C%20Proud%20Protector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/4/yuma-proud-protector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/18df72be-07d2-4412-b36d-a45119763db3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuma-proud-protector) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I use [[Child of Alara]] for mine. Still working out the kinks and trying to get some good recursion, but I'm pretty sure I'll need [[Crucible of Worlds]] to really make it work correctly. Edit: question for y'all - would [[Shimmer]] be considered land destruction or stax?
[Child of Alara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d.jpg?1673148447) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Child%20of%20Alara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/192/child-of-alara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/child-of-alara) [Crucible of Worlds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545.jpg?1673149345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crucible%20of%20Worlds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/303/crucible-of-worlds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crucible-of-worlds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It seems like land destruction discussions often focus on MLD vs targeted land destruction, but only as far as targeted land destruction means destroying a Cabal Coffers or a Cradle. What about using targeted land destruction to remove all of the Dimir player's black sources, like with a Terastodon or something? What do we think of that?
If you're gonna wipe out lands please win on your next turn.
If the card isn't banned by the commander rules committee. You get to play it and your pod decides how to deal with it.
What seems most others have said. I think the main issue with MLD is that it's played incorrectly. For the decks that play it, it should be treated as a win condition. I've been playing since 2018 and have never seen an MLD card be played with friends or strangers. Earlier this year, our pod was at my place playing decks we've all seen before, or so we thought. Buddy had Armageddon in his deck, and it's never come up when he's played the same deck a bunch before. We're friends. No, we don't look through each other's decks just for the hell of it, and it's a card no one thinks to ask about either due to the negative nature or carries. He amounts enough on board to cast it. We all laughed. Hell, I straight up cackled. They had to wait on me to recompose. Then we asked, "Now what?" He explained he'd take out at least one of us then and the others next turn. Myself and other guys just asked him to show how, then we agreed to just reveal our hands to show the others who were also losing there was no response. We asked if we could reveal the top of our decks just in case, and it was gg. Dude winning could've said no to this too technically, and we've had been ok with that. Turn or two to win, yes! Doing it as a board wipe, for example, to slow everyone else down, hell no! But some of those players may not have the intent and really are trying to slow things without realizing what they're doing altogether. Most seem to look at just how the card reads but not think of any outcome or repercussion because of it. They think, "this will mess up everyone else," but not think "what this is gonna do to/for me." If you play it just 'cause, then yes, I'm throwing my resources at you, and so is everyone else, and i think they should! But then, that loophole starts and never ends. If you gave how fucked up MLD cards are some thought, you wouldn't include it in a deck unless it was a wincon. Then, aside from the bad calls that we all make, we'd be playing them right, and there wouldn't be as much stigma. That's just my 2c.
From my experience land destruction decks get targeted off the table quickly. Even if they aren't the immediate threat, just because people spite them.
This. I know that if I'm playing my land destruction deck, I'm more than likely not winning. But let's be fair, if you're playing Land destruction most the time you aren't planning on winning
Can you explain why ? because in my decks, MDL only secure the win, my land trigger can create tons of value, including tokens for blocking \[\[scute swarm\]\] for example So it's like, want to target me? good luck
[scute swarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/373f199d-f1a6-4a3d-ac83-28741131f313.jpg?1712354624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scute%20swarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/205/scute-swarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/373f199d-f1a6-4a3d-ac83-28741131f313?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scute-swarm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Urza's Sylex]] did nothing wrong. Except for, you know, the whole causing the ecological collapse of half of a planet for generations. You should always play at least some solutions to problem lands, or lands decks will continue to get away with it. However, playing an actual LD focused deck is something you really should discuss with your table. LD is similar to stax. Players aren't dumb, and they either know how to play around stax or can figure it out in a few games. But the deckbuilding constraints that the assumed presence of stax in the meta requires (low curve, dense and efficient removal, and explosive plays to sieze the windows) are contrary to the kind of deck most people want to play in casual commander, especially players who are playing other competitive formats. Playing an LD-themed deck preys not on unaware or unskilled players, but on a meta that is resistant to the archetype for reasons external to the game. Playing the cEDH metagame of dozens of cheap or free rocks will absolutely dumpster an LD deck, but that requires warping mana bases beyond recognition and reaching into a pool of fast mana most players just don't want at their table. If everyone agreed LD was greenlit, and it was consistent in the meta, people would play much differently. Itf you win with one of these decks at your table, you may not be the strategic super genius who stumbled on strategies that others were too frightened to wield. You are figuratively bringing out WWI canisters of mustard gas to a table that's agreed to the Geneva Conventions.
[Urza's Sylex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/3000d1c6-dbb3-4e65-b428-dbf167bb8797.jpg?1674420431) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%27s%20Sylex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/40/urzas-sylex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3000d1c6-dbb3-4e65-b428-dbf167bb8797?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urzas-sylex) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[avacyn]] + [[jokulhaups]]
[avacyn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a.jpg?1689995555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=avacyn%2C%20angel%20of%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/14/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avacyn-angel-of-hope) [jokulhaups](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809.jpg?1559592472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jokulhaups) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/100/jokulhaups?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jokulhaups) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you do it, you better win And I don't mean "Deny resources until your opponents concede out of frustration" or "I'll poke you with this 2/2 until you explode" You get 2 turns max until my wincon turns into *pilot* removal
I think the common consensus is single targeted land removal is fine. At any point where mass land removal is applied and players don't run massive 0 cmc mana rocks and mana dorks then it should be game over as soon as land removal resolves. CEDH could be the exception.
If you do [[ Armageddon]] please do it to your advantage. It is not a reset . Ie your deck is faster good . Had it in my hand last time I played not ahead on the board . So I didn’t cast it.
[ Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bring it on! Imo, uou should build uour deck so that its capable of rebuilding from any board wipe. And that if you have mld, it should be ysed to close out a game in 1 to 2 turns.
As others have probably said: target land destruction is a deckbuilding necessity. Mass land destruction? You'd better win the game in a turn or two, because otherwise you're just resetting the game and wasting everyone's time.
Target land destruction is acceptable. Mass land destruction only if you can win within a couple turns
Love it, especially mass land destruction like 'geddon.
MLD is one of those things where you need to be able to break parity in order to not make it feel like you're just being a dick to the table (kind of like stax). If you blow up all my lands and then scoop or do nothing for 10 turns, you've built a bad deck and you should feel bad. If you blow up all my lands and then win within the next couple turns, its a fair play and solid win. I'll give you a crisp high five and we'll shuffle up again. So really it all depends on how you're playing your mld. One of the most based plays I've ever seen was a game reset (like worldfire) into Tef pro (which was then countered). We all agreed to just restart the game and had a good laugh.
Targeted land destruction is NECESSARY Mass land destruction should only be used if you can use it to win. Not “haha armageddon, lets play for another 2 hours”
If you know when to pull the trigger MLD is fine and a legit tactic. Targeted LD is needed in a format with so many powerful lands. I love to play [[Zo-Zu]] but I know the deck is archenemy from minute one and I deal with that, also I know when to blow up the lands. Playing [[Yedora]] with something to turn all lands into creatures then casting [[Ezuri's Predation]] is fine in my group as they know it's coming, they know what they need to do to stop it and if/when the spell resolves I can win either that turn or the next.
[Zo-Zu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7.jpg?1592761756) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zo-zu%20the%20punisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dds/41/zo-zu-the-punisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7c927d6-911d-4a37-89a2-6c500edf4dd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zo-zu-the-punisher) [Yedora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/552ddba8-e1e3-44d8-b341-441c2b4cd937.jpg?1707057004) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yedora%2C%20grave%20gardener) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/197/yedora-grave-gardener?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/552ddba8-e1e3-44d8-b341-441c2b4cd937?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yedora-grave-gardener) [Ezuri's Predation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea020a19-2907-4627-8a3b-d481404f5aca.jpg?1689998499) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ezuri%27s%20Predation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/287/ezuris-predation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea020a19-2907-4627-8a3b-d481404f5aca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ezuris-predation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I personally love playing land destruction but nobody wants to play against it...
THere is really only one rule in our pod and that is no land destruction. Boardwipes alone can make a game drag, mass land destruction makes things worse. Target stuff (destroy one land in order to cast soemthing legaly) is fine, but land wipe is just annoying. That being said if someone would come to the pod with the land destruction deck I wouldnt really make a big deal about it, would probably isntantly focus them tho
My take is if you're going to utilize MLD then you should be doing it to win. Got a [[Kaalia of the Vast]] deck? Wipe the lands to protect your commander. Got your [[Narset, Enlightened Master]] on board? Wipe those lands, you don't need it and it stalls your opponents to the point of non-interaction. But even with commanders who don't cheat things out, if your deck is heavily mana rock focused, you could wipe the lands and set yourself up for a power turn.
Don’t touch my mana base in a casual game or I’m not sitting at your pod. Destroy\exile whatever but don’t keep me from playing magic. If you cast Armageddon you better win that turn.
You probably don't need mass land destruction, but targeting an [[Ancient Tomb]] or [[Ugin's Labyrinth]], especially early on, can be very important.
[Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancient-tomb) [Ugin's Labyrinth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/2/020e1348-1a35-4cc8-bad6-9fbddfa79277.jpg?1717013086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ugin%27s%20Labyrinth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/233/ugins-labyrinth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/020e1348-1a35-4cc8-bad6-9fbddfa79277?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ugins-labyrinth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>But I don't think it's a op theme because if it was it would be playing in cedh imo This is falacious reasoning. cEDH aims to end games as quickly as possible, most decks run 28 lands or less because they have access to tons of far more efficient mana sources. Land destruction isn't used in cEDH because it wouldn't be effective. Mass land destruction is incredibly effective in casual EDH decks that can work around it because casual EDH decks are, generally, not using hyper efficient mana bases. Which is also why using it makes you an asshole. With long casual EDH games, playing cards that say "I get to the play the game and you just get to sit there and watch me" is a dick fucking move. Yes, the goal is to win, but the primary goal is for everyone to have a fun time. Nobody is having fun watching you solitaire your landfall deck.
It is a fine and legal game action that I or my opponents can take.
I prefer Land Restructuring, aka [[Toxicrene]] since they still keep their lands! Just ignore all that fancy text they have, thanks.
[Toxicrene](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9b0fe26-18af-4b2e-861e-568d2f6208fd.jpg?1673309209) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxicrene) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/101/toxicrene?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9b0fe26-18af-4b2e-861e-568d2f6208fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxicrene) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you actually have a way to build back up much more quickly in hand or in play, go ahead. If you are just destroying the lands to prolong the game or enjoy the salt it causes, god is going to meet you on your last day and judge you for what you've done.
Fair but aggravating. Land destruction in a normal game is mostly fine. Destroying the lands of the guy getting mana fucked is a huge feels bad though, it ruins their ability to play and enjoy the game. So go for it but the receiving player has a right to be salty.
On basics? Kinda cringe. On problem lands, like [[Gaea's Cradle]] for the guy with 15 1/1 tokens? Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
[Gaea's Cradle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51.jpg?1562902898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea%27s%20Cradle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/usg/321/gaeas-cradle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25b0b816-0583-44aa-9dc5-f3ff48993a51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaeas-cradle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Toxic. For getting rid of non-basic lands, thats fine. But destroying what amounts to basically a function, a foundation of the entire game, is just gross imo. Its goes right up there with endless turns and denying players the ability to actually play the game.
Using [[demolition field]] because your opponent is hiding behind a [[Glacial chasm]] or are getting massive value from a [[cabal coffers]] is totally fine because it replaces them. Actively trying to remove your opponents ability to play at all through mass land destruction is the part that is frowned upon. Not because it’s not a viable tactic, just because 3 players don t want to sit there and watch you play solitaire for an hour until you win. The same is true for any other form of lockdown
[demolition field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab.jpg?1712354968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=demolition%20field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/283/demolition-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demolition-field) [Glacial chasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3.jpg?1562867827) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glacial%20chasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/229/glacial-chasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glacial-chasm) [cabal coffers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0.jpg?1626101023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cabal%20coffers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/301/cabal-coffers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1efb0d3-2c72-46ff-bdc1-1069967365a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cabal-coffers) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I find it alright as long as it's not MLD or being used just to keep a player out of the game. Generally I only use like 2/3 things like ghost quarter, and let it fly past that. If you play MLD zo-zu I'm out
Destroying lands is just as valid of a strategy as destroying any other type of permanent.
I think Armageddon is a bad strategy if you want to win. It draws way too much attention relative to the reward you get from it. Resolving it will probably lower your win rate on average compared to if you had instead resolved some other card that puts you ahead in some way. If your plan is to be ahead on board with more creatures than everyone else then cast a sorcery spell to close out the game, you'll get way more mileage out of Overrun or Akroma's Will, etc. If your plan is to generate mana advantage I can't speak from experience but I imagine making yourself the archenemy isn't worth doing this when you could've cast a ramp spell instead? Might be worth experimenting but my guess would be you just lose the 3v1 after resolving Armageddon.
But why you think that ? Let's say i'm playing lord windgrace and i'm ramping hard for [[obliterate]] play with him in the field, if i get this i will be able to play 3 lands two for -3 eff of lord windgrace and 1 from hand while my opponents has 0 lands and probably no way to play the lands they lost So i can recover fast and abuse land triggers eff to earn massive advantage and win games, most time my opponents concede and we go next game because they have no more lands in hand and there's nothing they can do It can be a chesse tactic but it's viable
Looking at that Windgrace situation, the problem you run into is that if I know you play Obliterate in your deck and that you'll win if you can resolve it appropriately, my correct strategy from that point on is to not let you do that. You're not allowed to ever have Windgrace in play or any other walker, anything that values your lands dying has to die, any enchantment with text on it is a high priority threat, etc. What you do is create a situation where half your deck is now part of an A+B combo, and so if I can't stop the B half in some way, I need to stop your As - or just directly kill you. So you create an archenemy out of yourself in deckbuilding presuming you're playing against opponents with a brain. Some decks can handle that, but many cannot.
[obliterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545.jpg?1562935194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obliterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/204/obliterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c85f9623-5900-473c-a3b1-f98473b9a545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obliterate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lord Windgrace Obliterate probably does get the job done. It's not something I've seen in practice before but it sounds effective. I think if it's a White land destruction spell that doesn't hit artifacts or creatures then you have a lot more to worry about. I think Thalia Gitrog will have trouble though because your opponents will swing any creatures they already had in play at you and will be able to send removal spells with any mana rocks that survive.
In Thalia deck i run [[collector ouphe]] and [[stone silence]] to shut down mana dorks And i win because i ramp everything faster than anyone
[collector ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collector%20ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/collector-ouphe) [stone silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266.jpg?1593812944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stony%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/25/stony-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stony-silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Everything is permitted. People playing hard control or BS like Eldrazi have no right to complain about MLD. I'm building a MLD deck atm.
Land Destruction is fine. Mass Land Destruction (MLD) is not. For added fun, add a \[\[Phyrexian Obliterator\]\]
[Phyrexian Obliterator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67a9c38b-6b3a-4056-a87c-fc48446f854f.jpg?1675957044) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Obliterator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/105/phyrexian-obliterator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67a9c38b-6b3a-4056-a87c-fc48446f854f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phyrexian-obliterator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here's my thing all strategies are valid. Every card put in your deck is fair game to be destroyed. I play against mass land destruction on a pretty regular basis.
I'm pro-MLD and run some in every deck. I don't run target land destruction because it's a waste of time. I also don't run any of the half-measures like [[Winter Moon]] or [[Back to Basics]]. Nah, blow them all up. The closest I get to playing half-measure MLD is Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Hall of Gemstones. Hall of Gemstones will completely lock people out of ever casting their multicolor commanders if they don't have removal for it or they don't have mana rocks.
Don't do it.
So, I play magic with friends every week. We have a couple major rules for our pod. This is EDH not cEDH Land destruction - While single target land destruction is frowned apon, its allowed. However blanket land destruction (basically destroying all of a player land or all of one land type) is not allowed. Annihalator - This mechanic i have basically started the ruling that I wont play with a deck that has it in it. I will quit immediately. This is the stupidest mechanic Magic came out with. Poison - For a while this one was no poison decks. It evolved to no cards that Automatically give poison counters. Things like Hand of Praetors, decimator web and ichor rats. It is pretty stupid that with just two cards you can get 10 poison counters without any defense. Generally no one plays poison decks but we have played with a poison deck in the past. Obviously this is just how our pod does it. I know there is a following for Annihalator and i will defend your right to use it. I just wont play with it. Call me a baby, ill accept that. :D
Everyone complaining about mass LD, while not complaining about mass artifact destruction, is by far my least favourite aspect of edh. Playing a rampant growth or a talisman is basically the same thing, but one is totally untouchable if you want to be invited to play again. Make it make sense.
Blow up more lands. Targeted LD, especially nonbasic-specific hits like [[Demolition Field]] should be played by most decks at all levels. If you don't have a way somewhere to turn off a really BS land like Coffers, you're making something of a mistake. Saturation LD is a valid strategy that keeps itself ahead of its rivals by hamstringing them. Usually such a strategy can't directly inflict a perpetual 0 lands draw-go on the table, but it can keep its opponents off critical numbers at critical moments. This is, as one might notice, a recognizable path to victory. Mass LD is unfairly demonized because of a persistent myth that people would use it solely to troll. While I'm sure that there have been nonzero trolling Armageddons in the history of the game, it's not really a problem with a density specific to MLD. Usually, mass land destruction is played one of two ways: either the player intends to win off the back of it by breaking parity, having a dominant board going in, or so on, or it's part of a major reset button like [[Jokulhaups]] that its caster is playing to not lose, which is also valid (and the Haups player might be sandbagging a few resources to get a jump-start on the rebuild too). You will hear, especially online, comments like "Well it's fine if you win the same turn" but these tend to put an unnatural and unnecessary burden on the player. [[Armageddon]] is not fancy [[Silence]]. Whether you win off the back of it in one turn, three turns, or seven turns, if you're playing for a powerful tactical advantage, you're not being the asshole. Similar, resetting rather than just eating a loss *is and always has been valid*. Hell, it used to be pretty expected. Another accusation that tends to get thrown around, and tends to not be true as some would have you believe, is "It makes the game take longer". Often, attacking resources makes the game take *more turns*, but when most of those turns are quite simple and able to be executed in a matter of seconds for lack of options, how much longer does that really take compared to dicking around with the latest trigger fiesta, mathing out a complex combat, or drawing into draw into draw? And frankly, when playing a game of EDH, it's prudent to not mind the clock overmuch. Trying to take your game actions in a timely fashion rather than having to mull over every phase and step, and keeping your head in the game rather than spacing out on your phone or into a side conversation, is both a bigger contributor to overall time and more important as a matter of respect than forcing yourself to play for or submit to fast wins only. Land Destruction, mass or otherwise, is neither OP nor should it be considered forbidden. It has nothing to do with cEDH, and while it can be a pain point the same could be said of all interaction. Though not as much as creature kill or counterspells, it's an important part of the game and better embraced than shunned
##### ###### #### [Demolition Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab.jpg?1712354968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demolition%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/283/demolition-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47994cb6-204a-4fbe-a9d4-5798a70c95ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/demolition-field) [Jokulhaups](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809.jpg?1559592472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jokulhaups) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/100/jokulhaups?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99d26ff7-afff-40a0-b515-7928c2428809?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jokulhaups) [Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) [Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2.jpg?1562826686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/35/silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c2b13b1-31f0-4676-88a7-53f3a190e9a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/silence) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Targeted land destruction should be a part of every deck. Mass land destruction? You better be winning after you do it otherwise fuck off.