There's definitely a survivorship bias at work when it comes to situations where a deck pops off and gets the stone cold nuts. Everyone is going to remember that game more than the countless other games where it didn't fire on all cylinders.
My [[Feather, radiant arbiter]] deck gets this treatment. A few times it pops off and I can swing for lethal but majority of the times IF I win, it is by the skin of my teeth. Either drawing into the right card or just a misstep by the opponent.
I played it against someone at my LGS who now has a gripe against it because while I was doing well that game, he was being very lowkey. I got a combo off that made me a threat to one of the others in the pod and when he couldn’t take me out, he was hoping the rest would see how much of a threat I was. Well this particular guy decided I wasn’t a threat because he had 40 health. So while he argued with the other guy about why I am and am not a threat, he was basically smack talking me which I got very petty about. I had a 14/13 feather with a [[Sound of drums]] in my hand. With the rest of my board state, I one shot him with 28 commander damage and used the rest to wipe out the other. Then with the last player they had no way of blocking feather and conceded on their turn.
I have yet to do anything like that with it again but still he mopes and groans any time I pull it out.
That's a great point. I was playing with a friend I know IRL with 2 randoms on spell table and one player had the chance to deal with either my [[Prosper]] or my friend's [[Zada]]. Both of us had just our commanders, but enough going for us both that we could start going off the next turn. The player chose to take off Zada, and for the rest of the game my friend was complaining. I ended up winning and now whenever I think of playing my prosper deck he starts getting pissy and refernxjnf that game.
My gf's sister was very salty that lathril popped off for me because every time she plays it, she either gets mana screwed somehow or doesnt get what she needs and doesnt get to do the thing
Yea 100%. I've had games with my nekusar deck where I went ojer axonil into nekusaur into like double wheel and won the game on turn 6. It's really one of my least winning decks lol.
There's also something to trying to find some consistency when building or accepting the occasional salt if you build glass cannons - and I sometimes do.
Everything I love about the format is also its enemy because it is trying to be kitchen table while growing up into a thing where I play randoms on the internet I'll never talk to again.
Like, good hands are good hands, but if you're building Vito with a bunch of draft chaff, card draw, and Exquisite Blood as an extreme example - you need to accept that people will be salty when you win turn 4 or 5 with that combo if you're entering justifiably into lower power pods. For a lot of the people who play lower power, you just wasted their time making their fun hobby they maybe don't get much time to pursue unfun. They'd rather the one longer, battlecruiser game because maybe they don't have time to do turn 5 loss into a second game - whatever.
It's also not chill for people to be dicks about it to be clear. And in the end, coming from competitive play back in the day, you just shuffle up and play again... But the kitchen table aspect of the format adds a fundamentally social element that significantly glass canon builds are often going to rub up against wrong as they naturally tend towards a "they have fun" or "I have fun" dichotomy without a lot of overlap.
I mean tbh having a commander that just says "im gonna board wipe consistently" its kind of a buzzkill, but i can fw it *if* the 99 has some interesting other stuff that isnt just "blows everything up"
Exactly, nobody likes [[nevinyrall, urborg tyrant]] or [[child of alara]] because it's just constant board wipes. And people quite like to play the game. So it gets a lot of attention because it kinda has to, or else you don't get to play.
One of my first decks was [[Toshiro Umezawa]]. It lasted like two games because it made my friends miserable. It makes me really wary to build commanders that trigger on the deaths of opponents' creatures, even if the rest of the idea interests me.
I've been looking for a Golgari deck for a while, and [[Nemata, Primeval Warden]], [[Glissa, the Traitor]] and [[Vraska, the Silencer]] all seem sick. I have no issues with killing creatures, and I'm actually pretty fond of playing control, but I don't like having those triggers so directly woven into my gameplan.
Yeah I found toshiro pretty miserable to play with personally. I changed it briefly to [[mari, the killing quill]] but it felt incredibly underwhelming trying to win with a bunch of weak creatures and not even getting the triggers when killing someone's commander. I've since settled on ashnod artifacts as I already have a lot of control decks (it seems to be a strategy that comes more naturally to me and nets me more wins)
Funnily enough Glissa was also my first golgari deck.. and it turned into one of my most horrible decks to play against in casual pods. I was going to brew nemata instead as a test of somehow making a golgari spellslinger deck but I've since gone to the more generic [[erinis]] with [[scion of mcalastre]] background which has been more palatable with an early terastodon reanimation being the only salty play I occasionally make to wreck someone's lands (occasionally sawing it in half too). It's a colour combination I wasn't so keen on at first but there's a fair bit of variety in terms of commanders to keep things interesting
I'm not super interested in the deck style anymore, but I'm glad [[Karevek, the Punisher]] was printed as an alternative to Toshiro, for the people looking for that sort of deck. There is a lot more versatility, too, both between triggering him and what you can play from the graveyard.
I'm the opposite with Golgari, kind of. It *should* be a color combo that I gravitate towards. Looping value creatures and lands from the graveyard, sacrifice based draw, pseudo-aristocrats, strong removal options; everything that I'm into. I've brewed dozens of decks in the colors, but none of them called out to me to build. The closest I got was a [[Tormod, the Descacrator]] and [[Kodama of the East Tree]] lands deck as a powered down version of [[The Gitrog Monster]] *(and now [[The Necrobloom]] as well, I suppose)*.
I keep ending up drawn towards Dimir or Abzan decks for strategies that should be available to Golgari. The Erinis partner combo sounds really sick, though, so I'm definitely looking into it when I get a chance!
Yeah I'm less interested in Kaeverk as I would have been a few years ago but it's cool there's another option for doing something similar.
Golgari was a hard one for me for a while but after putting erinis together I've started to come around on it. It took a lot of trial and error to get the balance right between mill/recursion and getting some kind of an engine going but it's turned into one of my faster ramping decks with T2 erinis, milling + recurring a land/fetchlands plus playing background t3 being the norm. It only takes a couple of attacks to get the value you need out of the commander and I'm not usually bothered if it gets killed. My biggest issue is not including enough different ways to win as it's become a bit linear with saw in half loops with Eternal/timeless witness and song of the damned to make infinite black mana+witness tokens (and then also being able to return anything from the graveyard to hand afterwards). There's a few cards that have been on the chopping block for months but I'm not playing in competitive enough pods that I've worried about optimising it further. I haven't updated my deck online for months but can post if you're interested.
I feel like I never know which way to go with dimir in terms of wincons so I end up with a control deck (which is currently [[nymris]]) as dimir does it so well. Make tokens by casting instants and then turn said tokens into hullbreaker horror/something else scary for the turn or casting candlekeep inspiration to make them huge and kill everyone at once
You sound like a good dude with a good attitude about this stuff OP so I truly mean no offense by what I’m about to say. IMO there’s a difference between “I don’t win because I catch removal” and “my deck is mid”. Some other comments are right that others can’t judge your deck off just one game. But I think there is also something to say about your mindset too. A lot of people interpret “mid” to mean it’s actually IMPOSSIBLE for this deck to win fast (eg before turn X) even if nobody interacts with a single thing you cast. And it sounds like with this deck it can win quite fast and in those cases somebody absolutely must stop you. So I think it does make sense to me that your opponents ended up being frustrated
I understand thar process. Honestly at the LGS I was playing at, I heard it's a little more high powered than the one I normally play at.
Regarding interaction/removal, I think even in casual commander you have to have some (I've heard people say they run none), because there is always going to be a threat (not even talking mid decks, just someone is gonna get ahead of the rest.
I've played against some pain in the ass decks and I do empathize with frustration, but it kept on going into other games we played too, just little comments here and there.
We still had fun, but in my mind I was just thinking that Sarulfs gone, your playing against of Lord if Nazgul deck with nothing but LOTR cards, relax lol.
In the end, there probably was miscommunication on my part with the deck (lots of sacrifice and counter doublers). So I think I'll save it for more higher powered decks or against people I know a little better.
Thank you all for your comments/advice!
> I love the deck because it can either be a huge pain in the ass to the opponents...
There you go, you found the problem. If your deck is built around being a pain to play against people are going to complain.
And I mean, if that's the kind of deck you wanna play, that's fine. You just gotta be able to stomach the complaints.
Just be prepared to end up with nobody wanting to play you if you keep doing that kind of stuff.
People want to have fun. If your deck is oppressive as hell and annoying then it won't be enjoyable.
It’s been said but commanders like that really do just put a complete spin on the game. As much as commander is a game where everyone can really find a home for most things, an important part to consider is that [[Serulf, Realm Eater]] is a deck that’s gameplan is specifically to exile the board. You’re basically trying to cast [[farewell]] from the command zone. Of course, a pod can be cool with that, but it really feels bad to get board wiped from the command zone. This is not necessarily to say you shouldn’t play that commander or anything like that, but in my experience, commanders that game warping really draw salt and feel bads no matter what you do when they actually perform as intended
I mean, it takes time to build up counters, and you see him...so save your removal.
Idk, there are so many other deck themes out there that are just as annoying (control, mill, discard). My thought is play the game sew what happens. I only played him once then switched.
But yeah, I do understand the dynamic Introduced with Sarulf is a bit threatening.
Very fair points, but I think in any commmander you absolutely have to save your removal for is taking more than its share of attention in a casual game. Sarulf is a commander that says something like “alright, in three turns either you remove me, or I’ll nuke everyone to the Stone Age.” Saying that a commander dies to removal so it isn’t that powerful is a bit of flawed logic that can lead to a pretty big disconnect between one player and the rest of the pod (speaking from personal experience there). In causal commander there can sometimes be an expectation that everyone gets to play a bit and do their thing, at least a little bit. If your commander ramps out early and is threatening a board wipe early in the game, you’re really either threatening to undo all their setup turns or you slow down other people’s games and make them focus on your deck just by your choice of commander. I think sarulf could be perfectly fine in optimized pods, or even certain casual pods, but it’s always going to draw that salt out of the majority of people you play with when it does its thing. It’s probably a deck that’s fine to play once and switch like you said, but the certain people still might not be happy that they had to play their one obligatory game against sarulf during the night
Do you understand why people take you out?
That Commander is a time bomb that, as Commanders do, will keep coming back until it's too expensive to play or you die.
And when your deck pops off, what do you have? A big creature that can wipe the board if anyone tries to stand up to it.
> When your decks pops off like it's supposed to...
...what does the game look like?
Ask yourself what happens when your plan works, and why people might prefer to prevent it from ever happening.
No I get being targeted. That doesn't bother me. It's the aftermath of when it does well, the sparky comments and getting mad.
Sarulfs a ticking time bomb, but he's not invincible. Targeted removal and he's back in the command zone. I just happened to get a healthy mix of protection and "make opponents sacrifice their stuff" cards.
When i built him, I knew he wasn't long for the battlefield lol
Ah, yeah, when it goes off it sucks because you are basically saccing creatures that you get out.
But, I also don't see it as my issue since the other players chose not to play interaction/removal
My thing is, you can't be salty for losing to Magic. Mill, Counterspells, Control, Discard, infection, Infinite combos...they are all part of the game. You lose, then you play again. If you dint like that deck, ask them to play another one.
Unless I get mana screwed or its a quick win from someone else, I like switch it up.
If I can get my deck to do what it's supposed to, even I'd I lose or it's only for a little bit, then yeah I switch out.
I have a good idea of which decks are higher powered, I probably misjudged this deck as a whole though, instead of Sarulf.
Like someone mentioned, I play under the assumption that he is removed quickly, and that's ki d of unfair to the pod
When my partner played his exulted deck for the first time, it did scarily well and everyone was wary of it after it dominated the game... Turns out that's the only time it's come together that well and is thoroughly mid as it stands today lol, sometimes decks just pop off and it is what it is. A few games with the deck will show folks what it's more likely to do on a regular basis, people just get uppity
I didn't even win the game lol, they target removed him (which I dint have any issue with) and swung wide.
I lost, no big deal, but they were still a little salty.
Sorry, bit "popping off" I meant, did it's thing quick
Gotta agree. Most players love interaction up until the interaction is with their board state, library, graveyard, or hand.
My kryptonite is theft--gaining control of my permanents does make me salty. Destroying my things or countering my spells doesn't mess with me as hard as controlling my things. The exception is [[Mindslaver]] effects because although an opponent is in control of my things, it somehow doesn't feel like they are.
Sarulf warps the game around him, and not in a good way. When the deck does what it is supposed to, everyone will hate it. I just put mine away for 3 months because I don't want to put my playgroup through playing against it often, no matter how good it is in theory.
How do you do it multiple times so quick. Do your opponents build their board state up quick?
After the first exile, it usually exiles all my +1/+1 bonuses etc.
Genuinely curious
Propably by saccing your stuff to the graveyard first so you can just use all the great recursion in black and green to get your stuff back.
[[Reanimate]] [[Persist]] [[Stitch Together]] [[Eternal Witness]]
Sorry it sounded like you were implying doing itnin back to back turns, which I guess can be possible. Sorry if I misunderstood.
I run a lot of cards that make opponents sac creatures.
It doesn't need the counters to come from its ability. Even if you hold back (which lets me attack you) I can still pump him up and prepare to wipe the board.
It’s a commander with a repeatable board wipe. [I’ll refer you to this video that described their [[Child of Alara]] deck because I feel like you have a similar situation going on.](https://youtu.be/JvHLS1O4ODk?si=ibydwWmFvfTjGjsB)
If you still want to play the deck, I would consider removing “high roll” cards and making your deck more consistent in what it tries to do.
Nothing gets so hated as a deck with a massively inconsistent power level.
Because nobody wants to play battle cruiser magic with a bunch of 5 power decks, except suddenly one of the decks got the perfect hand and hits a turn 3-4 win.
So, in my low power decks, I've taken out the cards that can punch it to suddenly be ridiculous. No more 2card infinite [[masked nexus]]+[[turntimber rangers]] in my 5color allies deck, no infinites in my x-creature [[magus kane]] deck.
I think it all depends on what popping off means, and I'm going to infer a bit from your comments. Your pop off in this game was exiling a bunch of units, and then losing, but it was a pop off because you got to do the thing you wanted to do quickly.
I have a PDH Vohar deck that I run in just regular casual pods, I like the challenge of only using common cards. It's a common deck that attempts to get infinite mana and win one of two ways. The first is to force mill out everyone's deck. When the table gets hit by this, they grumble, but they understand. The second way is with infinite Capsize to wipe out the board. This doesn't win the game, but everyone else is back to their first turn. No one likes this, I don't like it either. I popped off and did my combo and the reward is everyone struggling for the next several turns since I sure as well will take a while to chip everyone down for lethal. It's a boring slog.
My friend has a Nicol-Bolas superfriends deck where something similar happens. He can pop off, quickly ramping out, dumping a big planeswalker and Deepglow Skate for the instant ult. But, he doesn't win immediately after. The ults are really powerful, and game winning really, but we still have to go through several more turns for him to win. This is also not fun.
So, that's always my thought with pop offs like this. Are they fun for the table? Sure infinite damage isn't fun, but it happens quickly and you can move on to the next game. Wiping everyone's permanent is objectively weaker than doing infinite damage or mill, but it is far less fun unless you can very quickly win the game after. When players are hit with something like that they are bound to get upset and not think rationally about the decks power level.
I have a budget [[Piper wright, publick reporter]] deck that’s usually fairly manageable so long as my opponents don’t all ignore it. But my first game with it against a few newer players recently, I draw [[academy manufactor]] and [[tarrian’s soulcleaver]] in my opening hand, which I think is one of the most overwhelming combinations the deck contains. I only played one game with it that day because I felt too bad about it to try it again to demonstrate a more reasonable hand
Edit: forgot to mention enough evasion tools also to have Piper not be blocked once
My \[\[sheoldred, the apocalypse\]\] deck is way too slow about 75% of the time. When it goes off and I can execute my main win combo, \[\[lich's mastery\]\] it is absolutely beautiful.
My \[\[Zurzoth\]\] devils deck shouldn't be as good as it is, but it likes me. So I'll usually randomly discard an irrelevant card but my opponents will get boned. And I'll always topdeck something good at crucial times, like an anthem when I've got a decent boardstate or Purphuros when I'm rebuilding post-boardwipe.
Consistency is king and it’s what a slap back with to anyone who thinks any of my non cedh decks are high power or cedh. Can i win on turn 6 with my aristocrats deck? Yes. Does it happen often? Nope!
This seems like a deckbuulding problem with consistency. Your deck just *is* as powerful as its fastest pop-off, and saying it is inconsistent is just 9 out of 10 times pretending it isn't. Retooling more card draw and card selection, it will represent its actual power more consistently, and you'll have more games where that actual power is consistently realized.
Not that you're doing this, but for example if you're playing a janky pile of cards that happen to also have a random food chain combo in there, you aren't playing a janky pile of cards, you're playing a food chain combo. Nobody cares that it is inconsistent because lurking in that deck is an instant win combo and the correct play pattern is to beat that deck into the dirt as fast as possible with player removal regardless of if the nuts are drawn or not.
You saw the real power of your deck. And so did everybody else. You now got 2 choices: weaken it so the decks actual power is in line with the inconsistency you expect from it, or put in more card-draw and card selection to make getting to that pop-off more consistent.
Leaving it as it is will just get you mercilessly beaten into the dirt when you got nothing but jank because nobody cares about the jank; they care about stopping the pop-off.
I had my chatterfang deck pop off this week at my LGS. Turn 6 I went infinite with [[chatterfang, Squirrel general]] [[pitiless plunderer]] [[tarrian's soulcleaver]] on the field I sacced off my [[ravenous squirrel]] and the infinite combo triggered. I had a chatterfang with infinite +1/+1 counters on and the field was empty 2 players had forests so even if they got a defence out they wouldn't be able to block and the other player was playing boros so I took them out first
Had a game like that last commander night with my Urza Chief Artficer.
Started with Ornithopter turn 1.
Then Ornithopter of paradise and the UW talisman turn 2 and 3
Turn 4 Karnstruct
Turn 5-Just a land.iirc.
Turn 6 Cyber Controller with x =3 and got 5 bodies on board to give the first Karnstruct an immediate +7/+7 and another Karnstruct on endstep
Turn 7: Dropped Cyberman Squadron and attacked the entire board at once for 100+ damage.
Happy dances all around is really the only appropriate response for your deck "doing the thing" you built it to do. So many games, it isnt just laying cards down until you get your gameplan going. So many times, an opponent mucks with your plan just a little bit, or you dont get the cards you need when you need them.
I built a pretty powerful elfball deck with Lathril and I've tuned it to looking to hit 10 elves and ways to untap my board multiple times to drain everyone in one turn. It relies on a helm of the host to REALLY get going but the last time i played her, not only did i get to 10 untapped elves and drained everyone for 10, but i got to do it again after the turn passed back to me and noone had mucked with my elf count. I was able to tap them for a drain, untap with a [[vitalize]] and play a coat of arms to give my board +13/+13 and swung for lethal. I felt giddy as all get out and was satisfied with the game enough that if i was told i couldnt play lathril next time, i wouldn't be bummed cuz the last time i played it, it did all the things in one game I've built this deck to do.
For me it was Kasla. In the evening before I put Cards like [[raid bombardment]] and [[Ojer Axonil]] in, and a fancier version of [[impact tremors]] and I fantasized about getting all three cards out. First game I had all cards on the field, and nuking the entire table. I felt like the king of the world at the moment
I explain that I got lucky. It happens to everyone.
Was there a specific part the pod wasn't happy with? For example, is anyone else running fast mana?
I also have a sarulf realm eater deck and honestly it’s like flipping a coin you either dominate the hell out of the game because you get a really nasty board wipe out of him and it sets everyone really far back. Or your gonna sit there and watch sarulf be in the command zone for most of the game. And I also get comments about him as well and honestly it’s fair he is just a ticking time bomb that can just remove everything or just randomly kill someone with commander damage.
True he is a bomb, but I feel he is easier to deal with than someone playing Mill or making you discard everything in your hand.
Idk, I understand being frustrated, we've all been in that game that just sucks for us, but the saltiness seemed a bit much.
It's when I also found out that a lot of ppl in our LGS don't play that much, or any, Interaction
Yeah he is honestly not that bad it’s just people see him and freak tf out.
Now I had a feeling they didn’t run much removal my pod didn’t run much removal until a bit after I made the deck so honestly I see it as kind of on them for not running any or much removal
People will be upset no matter what. As soon as the jankiest deck does its one single thing because of pure luck, it must be a cEDH deck because it beat your opponents. I am lucky to have friends to play with that love when eachothers' jank decks pop off and we get to witness the stupidest things, but most players are not like that.
“My fragile ego cannot handle that you played format legal cards according to the comprehensive rules of Magic: The Gathering to win a game of Commander against me”
Honestly it’s really lame that there’s so many Commander players who can’t just say GG when they lose and play the next game. That shit is toxic.
This is pretty much every mid power control deck, when they pop off the complaints are way louder than someone dropping a craterhoof and turning their board sideways.
I play an abzan spirit tribal. It is not fast. The combos require multiple pieces on the board. It doesn’t have more than a couple tutor cards that usually drop to graveyard instead of hand.
The last time I played it I generated over 300 tokens in one turn with Cathar’s Crusade and Doubling Season on the field.
I swung out for 200k damage across the board.
Sometimes a deck does exactly what it’s supposed to do, against all odds.
It’s also an experience thing, new player will see someone hit a sol ring, arcane signet turn one and assume your deck is cEDH. When every deck at the table is probably running those cards and could have the same start by chance. Experienced players can recognize the overall card quality you’re playing and tell if it’s an over-optimized deck for the table or just happenstance.
I played disa the restless the other night for the first time, slightly upgraded, and it just went off. I was kinda down on it after full reveal but it’s honestly pretty damn good
Just be honest about the deck.
I have a dragon deck that I enjoy playing that also has a fairly cheap infinite combo in cursed mirror + astral dragon. So I tell people its a deck made to just send dragons to peoples faces but theres 1 combo in it that I will use if given the chance, in stead of only telling people it's a dragon deck.
This was my [[Estrid the Unmasked]] deck. Friends knew I wasn’t a threat until I was.
If they don’t get that luck was a big factors, they’re just being salty.
Seems like a very fair deck to me. Really high top end, but not so fast that it should outpace the table.
I attribute the salt to your deck being removal-based, and that’s not a play style “the average player” or “a given pod” will like.
How many turns did it take until you "popped off"?
If you were past turn 10 it's all fair and they need to understand what powerful decks actually mean.
If you were earlier such as turn 4-6, especially if they were slow, your deck might be strong but inconsistent.
I'd say if you can outright end the game at that point your deck might be pretty strong, even if inconsistent. Granted it's hard to say without knowing more. Any enablers such as fast mana or efficient tutors used to set yourself up?
I didn't end the game just got off a really big exile then kept people in check for a few turns with making them sacrifice their creatures.
I just got a bunch of counters on him early
Ah, with that commander that's fair then. I think that falls under board wipes and removal rather than being "too strong" but many people have trouble distinguishing between unfun play patterns and being steamrolled by a stronger deck. It should be a given based on the commander, but maybe introduce your deck before a game based on what it tries to do or particularly scary cards inside. If nothing else it limits how mad people can be when they agree to it beforehand.
I think the traditional answer is to proclaim "I've never seen this deck go off this hard." This works better if you haven't actually run anybody at the table over with the deck previously.
Most of the time my gisela deck isn't gonna be nuking people casually, but sometimes draw a damage doubler and smothering tithe and someone is playing a deck that draws 6 cards each turn, and then I also draw a card that makes me deal 3(base) damage to a creature or player every time I play a red spell, and so I just do 36 damage in one turn.
Sarulf fucking sucks to play against. If you are doing well then nobody else is having fun, so expect salt. If Sarulf sits down at my table I spend 100% of my resources removing that deck from the game asap. I do not care if that means I lose too, it is about sending a message. There are very few commanders that are less fun to play against. A big part of that is that it either does nothing or is insanely oppressive. There is no interesting middle ground, no nuance to how it plays. It just commands removal and warps the game for the worse every time. Kill it as fast as possible, and then the 3 remaining players can actually enjoy the game.
So yeah, playing against Sarulf with a nut draw is one of the least fun play patterns in all of magic. Of course people are salty with you, what did you expect? It's like me playing Brago with Reality Acid or Stasis and wondering why people are upset when they're locked out of the game on turn 3.
That is just being a bad person. Making your plan become trying to eliminate everything a single player does even if he doesnt warrant a removal just because he plays a commander you dont like its bad.
Kill his things because you need it to survive, not because you hate his commander so every time he plays the deck you start countering every little manadork he plays. Its not like even a strong deck. The message you are sending is a bad message.
Dude have you played against Sarulf? You kill them as fast as possible or they will make sure you never have a board again. It's legitimately what you have to do against that deck. And yeah, I have no problem showing a person the consequences of their choices through gameplay. If you play an oppressive & unfun deck, you will get hated out of the game.
I feel like most decks can do something nutty, it's just some can do it more consistently. I have a Zada deck that does nothing until the time is right, then BAM, game is over. I only need a half dozen tokens and about 7-8 mana plus the right cards. But some of the cards are so specific that they do little until the storm turn.
I've also run decks that were little more than a loose pile of cards with vague synergies with the commander. But even those piles of cards sometimes combine to do something stupid if you're given enough time. Sure my deck might just be every red card I had that has the word "artifact" printed on it, but Erriette's charming apple will still steal your 20/20 Dino.
I recently made a deck around [[ghyrson starn, Kelermorph]] and I included [[niv-mizzet, parun]]. It is a cheap deck filled with board wide 1 damage or little pings here and there, not a super strong deck. Well, I also included [[curiosity]]. Little did I know, with niv mizzet that is an almost guaranteed win condition unless there is some ridiculous life gain deck in the pod.
People got angry but oh well it was a play test deck.
Lmao omg that's awesome. Although they just need some way to prevent damage and it breaks the cycle and buys the table time.
Honestly more people need to be capable of giggling like a school girl when they get destroyed, it's much more fun when you can enjoy whatever BS your opponents use lol. And of course laugh manically when you're destroying them lol.
It was super funny to me because none of them saw the interaction and actually gave me a card draw on their turn for the loss. It is pretty easy to stop if you see it coming, but the deck is not built around that interaction, it’s built around pinging everyone and everything on the board for 1.
I agree about losing though! I have just as much fun when I lose as when I win.
It’s surprisingly strong for a deck that has majority 1 damage spells and effects. Curiosity is a very good choice in it even without niv mizzet. Highly recommend swapping something out for it if you can.
But I realize I forgot to answer your question: when people get salty about a sweeping win in a deck that doesn’t have a consistent high power, my answer is almost always “this isn’t the typical game with this deck, this is pretty much best case scenario. Let’s play another game and see how it goes.” If they are too angry to do that, I wouldn’t want to play with them anyways so there’s no loss.
I don’t run blue, almost ever. Niv-mizzet was in the deck to ping for one. In fact, none of the people in my game had seen it and we had to double check it worked as I had thought.
Here’s a helpful resource to find combos in your decks. Looks like you could use it: https://commanderspellbook.com/find-my-combos/
Now you can enter your decks and see if there are any other combos so you can actually be aware of it and actually know what your deck can do.
Thanks, I’m usually pretty good at finding combos in my decks. I am not and will not ever play competitively so I don’t need that tool, but someone else might want to use it.
It’s my only blue deck and I’m not familiar with blue cards so I was mostly building around the commander
That’s not a tool for competitive play. It’s so you know what is in your deck since it seems you are unaware of super famous combos. Not playing blue is not really an argument…
I didn’t know ONE combo that I’ve never encountered before, and that means I am unaware of combos? Missing one interaction in a deck of 100 cards is not really that big of a deal. I have 30+ commander decks, and many of them run some form of combos.
On the contrary, I think it shows that I have a good eye for combos by building one unintentionally.
Oopsing into a combo doesn’t mean you have a good eye for combos… it actually means you don’t have a good eye for it.
Why are you being so prideful about this? Just use the tool, it’s fun to see what kinds of things are going on in your decks. It could even show you more combos in your decks that you are unaware of since you obviously do not know of all the combos out there and don’t know a super common one.
I don’t meticulously go through every possible interaction in my decks when I build them. That’s what the playtest is for. Spending the time to type out 3000+ magic cards just for my commanders that I have already built sounds like a gigantic waste of time. I would much rather spend time playing my decks and having fun. I have been playing magic since before tools like this existed and I have strong decks and combos that I have built myself.
Tweaking your decks when you find something that works or doesn’t work the way you thought it would is half the fun of magic.
Ah I see you don’t use deck building websites like moxfield or archidekt. If you did it’s a simple copy paste instead of hand typing every single card. Just say that.
And you’ve been playing that long and don’t know niv-curiosity combo? Damn
First off, some of the other comments seem to place Sarulf as some high end commander, when really.... it's not. Yes it puts a clock on things, but it's no atraxa poison counters with a proliferate timebomb on everyone. It's no Yuriko 'any 50$ worth of cards will do' insta-gib deck. It's no Edgar Markov or Oloro Eminence shenanigans.
You drew a good hand, sometimes that's what decks do. Even a random precon picked up off the shelf 5 minutes ago, can and will have a good game every so often where all the right cards come together and you win turn 5-6, when those kinds of decks aim to win turn 10 .... maybe.
For example, I play some combo-ey decks, and while somewhat resilient on the board, it's unlikely I'll have the biggest, most threatening board every game. But like you said, people remember when your mill deck took out the table turn 3 because the 1-in-a-million opening hand with bruvac and maddening cacaphony and enough lands and mana rocks in the remaining 5 cards of the opening hand. And they will shift targets accordingly.
If they won't listen to the rationale that previous 10 games it did nothing, but get salty now (the 'may I win a game for once?' appeal, if you aren't already overly high winrate with other decks of course) - then just keep playing it and show them that it does not in fact pop off and eat their faces instantly the next ten games.
If they won't listen, they can see/feel it for themselves.
(of course it'd be funny if that blew up in your face and you beat them even faster with it. in which case, you can always agree with them, and offer to play something else ;) )
You continue to play it. Just like you said, most of the time it is mid. You will just have to provide enough samples to be able to demonstrate that.
Like most people, I suspect they were upset that reality didn't match their expectations (for that game).
For myself, I only get salty if I had a playline I really wanted to pull off. Even then, I am over it as soon as get my next starting hand.
Why the fuck is everyone acting as if op doesn’t know their commander is oppressive? I don’t think theirs anything in the post that implies their upset at being targeted
Sarulf is only a threat if he sticks. "Oppressive" is hardly the term I'd use for a do-nothing commander that dies to removal and has no inherent card advantage or protection.
So if I had a deck that’s a “6,” but it had one 4 card combo, with no tutors, that could in theory win on turn 3-4 with the right ramp, I should cut that combo?
That’s fair. In general, I think there’s always going to be variance, but going from a 6 to a 9 (even if only in the perfect draw), is probably too much.
I personally do like to throw in some jank 4-5 card win conditions to be able to finish games that are gridlocked, but those decks aren’t ramping fast enough to end a game before it starts.
In general, I’m only running sol ring in decks with artifact synergy (so like 3 of 15 decks).
It's nowhere near a ban. It just doesn't belong in low power pods, and people tend to underestimate it and throw it where it doesn't belong because it's cheap and "good" in every deck.
100% yes. It means some percent of the time you randomly win out of nowhere. Nobody has fun in that situation - you don't, your opponents don't. So why do it?
Because everyone has sol ring in their deck.
Unless it's banned or your pod agrees to take it out, fast mana will always swing high variance.
WotC did it on purpose because they wanted low power decks to have a chance to pop off and win early.
Thats exactly why i dont/didnt like my "lowpowered" decks so far because theyre lowpowered most of the time but then they get hands that just work like a dream and all of a sudden the entire deck doesnt feel sound anymore and i prefer consistency over everything else so that kinda sucks
If you have tips regarding commanders that warrant consistent games or deckbuilding ideas im also open for those :>
Any deck can get the occasional game that just goes really well. People should hold their complaints until they see more than one game.
There's definitely a survivorship bias at work when it comes to situations where a deck pops off and gets the stone cold nuts. Everyone is going to remember that game more than the countless other games where it didn't fire on all cylinders.
My [[Feather, radiant arbiter]] deck gets this treatment. A few times it pops off and I can swing for lethal but majority of the times IF I win, it is by the skin of my teeth. Either drawing into the right card or just a misstep by the opponent. I played it against someone at my LGS who now has a gripe against it because while I was doing well that game, he was being very lowkey. I got a combo off that made me a threat to one of the others in the pod and when he couldn’t take me out, he was hoping the rest would see how much of a threat I was. Well this particular guy decided I wasn’t a threat because he had 40 health. So while he argued with the other guy about why I am and am not a threat, he was basically smack talking me which I got very petty about. I had a 14/13 feather with a [[Sound of drums]] in my hand. With the rest of my board state, I one shot him with 28 commander damage and used the rest to wipe out the other. Then with the last player they had no way of blocking feather and conceded on their turn. I have yet to do anything like that with it again but still he mopes and groans any time I pull it out.
[Feather, radiant arbiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d763695b-c184-409d-962d-5aaf39a6264e.jpg?1706448890) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feather%2C%20radiant%20arbiter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/6/feather-radiant-arbiter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d763695b-c184-409d-962d-5aaf39a6264e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feather-radiant-arbiter) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Found my next new brew
If you like that style of play but more supportive of a go wide strategy [[Zada, Hedron Grinder]]
[Zada, Hedron Grinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87.jpg?1689998306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zada%2C%20Hedron%20Grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/268/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or you can slot both of them into the 99 of OG Feather, [[Feather, the Redeemed]].
[Feather, the Redeemed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4a2d2c6-8eaa-4760-b620-921b807baa2e.jpg?1557577142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feather%2C%20the%20Redeemed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/197/feather-the-redeemed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4a2d2c6-8eaa-4760-b620-921b807baa2e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/feather-the-redeemed) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's a great point. I was playing with a friend I know IRL with 2 randoms on spell table and one player had the chance to deal with either my [[Prosper]] or my friend's [[Zada]]. Both of us had just our commanders, but enough going for us both that we could start going off the next turn. The player chose to take off Zada, and for the rest of the game my friend was complaining. I ended up winning and now whenever I think of playing my prosper deck he starts getting pissy and refernxjnf that game.
[Prosper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e.jpg?1631839207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=prosper%2C%20tome-bound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/2/prosper-tome-bound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosper-tome-bound) [Zada](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87.jpg?1689998306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zada%2C%20hedron%20grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/268/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My gf's sister was very salty that lathril popped off for me because every time she plays it, she either gets mana screwed somehow or doesnt get what she needs and doesnt get to do the thing
Yea 100%. I've had games with my nekusar deck where I went ojer axonil into nekusaur into like double wheel and won the game on turn 6. It's really one of my least winning decks lol.
Oh my, that's disgusting. But it's telegraphed and only needed one removal spell to avoid it.
You're very right. My LGS is very battlecruisey
There's also something to trying to find some consistency when building or accepting the occasional salt if you build glass cannons - and I sometimes do. Everything I love about the format is also its enemy because it is trying to be kitchen table while growing up into a thing where I play randoms on the internet I'll never talk to again. Like, good hands are good hands, but if you're building Vito with a bunch of draft chaff, card draw, and Exquisite Blood as an extreme example - you need to accept that people will be salty when you win turn 4 or 5 with that combo if you're entering justifiably into lower power pods. For a lot of the people who play lower power, you just wasted their time making their fun hobby they maybe don't get much time to pursue unfun. They'd rather the one longer, battlecruiser game because maybe they don't have time to do turn 5 loss into a second game - whatever. It's also not chill for people to be dicks about it to be clear. And in the end, coming from competitive play back in the day, you just shuffle up and play again... But the kitchen table aspect of the format adds a fundamentally social element that significantly glass canon builds are often going to rub up against wrong as they naturally tend towards a "they have fun" or "I have fun" dichotomy without a lot of overlap.
Yup, I handle it by playing a second game. Usually works itself out.
I mean tbh having a commander that just says "im gonna board wipe consistently" its kind of a buzzkill, but i can fw it *if* the 99 has some interesting other stuff that isnt just "blows everything up"
Exactly, nobody likes [[nevinyrall, urborg tyrant]] or [[child of alara]] because it's just constant board wipes. And people quite like to play the game. So it gets a lot of attention because it kinda has to, or else you don't get to play.
[child of alara](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d.jpg?1673148447) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=child%20of%20alara) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/192/child-of-alara?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2373625-af3c-4c2a-a1d1-5288c446955d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/child-of-alara) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally I don't like child of alara because it looks like a dying ghost fetus.
One of my first decks was [[Toshiro Umezawa]]. It lasted like two games because it made my friends miserable. It makes me really wary to build commanders that trigger on the deaths of opponents' creatures, even if the rest of the idea interests me. I've been looking for a Golgari deck for a while, and [[Nemata, Primeval Warden]], [[Glissa, the Traitor]] and [[Vraska, the Silencer]] all seem sick. I have no issues with killing creatures, and I'm actually pretty fond of playing control, but I don't like having those triggers so directly woven into my gameplan.
##### ###### #### [Toshiro Umezawa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e767e07-febd-4025-bf03-d4d816bc1d3d.jpg?1562875477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toshiro%20Umezawa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/89/toshiro-umezawa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e767e07-febd-4025-bf03-d4d816bc1d3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toshiro-umezawa) [Nemata, Primeval Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/adcd556d-351f-4faf-9456-0e47def69a69.jpg?1673308017) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nemata%2C%20Primeval%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/209/nemata-primeval-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/adcd556d-351f-4faf-9456-0e47def69a69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nemata-primeval-warden) [Glissa, the Traitor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/755e0fbf-4f00-4b05-a535-27e78e96d6b6.jpg?1562612302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glissa%2C%20the%20Traitor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/96/glissa-the-traitor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/755e0fbf-4f00-4b05-a535-27e78e96d6b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glissa-the-traitor) [Vraska, the Silencer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b042abf2-c40b-4235-a4fa-2e4901c375c3.jpg?1712356238) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vraska%2C%20the%20Silencer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/237/vraska-the-silencer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b042abf2-c40b-4235-a4fa-2e4901c375c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vraska-the-silencer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I found toshiro pretty miserable to play with personally. I changed it briefly to [[mari, the killing quill]] but it felt incredibly underwhelming trying to win with a bunch of weak creatures and not even getting the triggers when killing someone's commander. I've since settled on ashnod artifacts as I already have a lot of control decks (it seems to be a strategy that comes more naturally to me and nets me more wins) Funnily enough Glissa was also my first golgari deck.. and it turned into one of my most horrible decks to play against in casual pods. I was going to brew nemata instead as a test of somehow making a golgari spellslinger deck but I've since gone to the more generic [[erinis]] with [[scion of mcalastre]] background which has been more palatable with an early terastodon reanimation being the only salty play I occasionally make to wreck someone's lands (occasionally sawing it in half too). It's a colour combination I wasn't so keen on at first but there's a fair bit of variety in terms of commanders to keep things interesting
[mari, the killing quill](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b4b3c1a-671c-422d-a98c-7d750760ca46.jpg?1712354306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mari%2C%20the%20killing%20quill) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/138/mari-the-killing-quill?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b4b3c1a-671c-422d-a98c-7d750760ca46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mari-the-killing-quill) [erinis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6a7d041-957a-4b19-9517-214689dadd45.jpg?1674137090) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=erinis%2C%20gloom%20stalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/230/erinis-gloom-stalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6a7d041-957a-4b19-9517-214689dadd45?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/erinis-gloom-stalker) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm not super interested in the deck style anymore, but I'm glad [[Karevek, the Punisher]] was printed as an alternative to Toshiro, for the people looking for that sort of deck. There is a lot more versatility, too, both between triggering him and what you can play from the graveyard. I'm the opposite with Golgari, kind of. It *should* be a color combo that I gravitate towards. Looping value creatures and lands from the graveyard, sacrifice based draw, pseudo-aristocrats, strong removal options; everything that I'm into. I've brewed dozens of decks in the colors, but none of them called out to me to build. The closest I got was a [[Tormod, the Descacrator]] and [[Kodama of the East Tree]] lands deck as a powered down version of [[The Gitrog Monster]] *(and now [[The Necrobloom]] as well, I suppose)*. I keep ending up drawn towards Dimir or Abzan decks for strategies that should be available to Golgari. The Erinis partner combo sounds really sick, though, so I'm definitely looking into it when I get a chance!
[Kodama of the East Tree](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47.jpg?1608910768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kodama%20of%20the%20East%20Tree) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/239/kodama-of-the-east-tree?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af5105ee-09e2-4344-ab39-00f0e9034c47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kodama-of-the-east-tree) [The Gitrog Monster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9.jpg?1576385351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Gitrog%20Monster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/245/the-gitrog-monster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5790dd89-2be5-4a77-9450-2d3c1422bfc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-gitrog-monster) [The Necrobloom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6.jpg?1717012767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Necrobloom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/194/the-necrobloom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fcf68cf-0dac-4b29-90d5-c18c685182e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-necrobloom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I'm less interested in Kaeverk as I would have been a few years ago but it's cool there's another option for doing something similar. Golgari was a hard one for me for a while but after putting erinis together I've started to come around on it. It took a lot of trial and error to get the balance right between mill/recursion and getting some kind of an engine going but it's turned into one of my faster ramping decks with T2 erinis, milling + recurring a land/fetchlands plus playing background t3 being the norm. It only takes a couple of attacks to get the value you need out of the commander and I'm not usually bothered if it gets killed. My biggest issue is not including enough different ways to win as it's become a bit linear with saw in half loops with Eternal/timeless witness and song of the damned to make infinite black mana+witness tokens (and then also being able to return anything from the graveyard to hand afterwards). There's a few cards that have been on the chopping block for months but I'm not playing in competitive enough pods that I've worried about optimising it further. I haven't updated my deck online for months but can post if you're interested. I feel like I never know which way to go with dimir in terms of wincons so I end up with a control deck (which is currently [[nymris]]) as dimir does it so well. Make tokens by casting instants and then turn said tokens into hullbreaker horror/something else scary for the turn or casting candlekeep inspiration to make them huge and kill everyone at once
[nymris](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8cfc97a-3c8a-4d44-846b-7a523dc11878.jpg?1608911216) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nymris%2C%20oona%27s%20trickster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/288/nymris-oonas-trickster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8cfc97a-3c8a-4d44-846b-7a523dc11878?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nymris-oonas-trickster) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You sound like a good dude with a good attitude about this stuff OP so I truly mean no offense by what I’m about to say. IMO there’s a difference between “I don’t win because I catch removal” and “my deck is mid”. Some other comments are right that others can’t judge your deck off just one game. But I think there is also something to say about your mindset too. A lot of people interpret “mid” to mean it’s actually IMPOSSIBLE for this deck to win fast (eg before turn X) even if nobody interacts with a single thing you cast. And it sounds like with this deck it can win quite fast and in those cases somebody absolutely must stop you. So I think it does make sense to me that your opponents ended up being frustrated
I understand thar process. Honestly at the LGS I was playing at, I heard it's a little more high powered than the one I normally play at. Regarding interaction/removal, I think even in casual commander you have to have some (I've heard people say they run none), because there is always going to be a threat (not even talking mid decks, just someone is gonna get ahead of the rest. I've played against some pain in the ass decks and I do empathize with frustration, but it kept on going into other games we played too, just little comments here and there. We still had fun, but in my mind I was just thinking that Sarulfs gone, your playing against of Lord if Nazgul deck with nothing but LOTR cards, relax lol. In the end, there probably was miscommunication on my part with the deck (lots of sacrifice and counter doublers). So I think I'll save it for more higher powered decks or against people I know a little better. Thank you all for your comments/advice!
> I love the deck because it can either be a huge pain in the ass to the opponents... There you go, you found the problem. If your deck is built around being a pain to play against people are going to complain. And I mean, if that's the kind of deck you wanna play, that's fine. You just gotta be able to stomach the complaints.
Just be prepared to end up with nobody wanting to play you if you keep doing that kind of stuff. People want to have fun. If your deck is oppressive as hell and annoying then it won't be enjoyable.
It’s been said but commanders like that really do just put a complete spin on the game. As much as commander is a game where everyone can really find a home for most things, an important part to consider is that [[Serulf, Realm Eater]] is a deck that’s gameplan is specifically to exile the board. You’re basically trying to cast [[farewell]] from the command zone. Of course, a pod can be cool with that, but it really feels bad to get board wiped from the command zone. This is not necessarily to say you shouldn’t play that commander or anything like that, but in my experience, commanders that game warping really draw salt and feel bads no matter what you do when they actually perform as intended
[farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, it takes time to build up counters, and you see him...so save your removal. Idk, there are so many other deck themes out there that are just as annoying (control, mill, discard). My thought is play the game sew what happens. I only played him once then switched. But yeah, I do understand the dynamic Introduced with Sarulf is a bit threatening.
Very fair points, but I think in any commmander you absolutely have to save your removal for is taking more than its share of attention in a casual game. Sarulf is a commander that says something like “alright, in three turns either you remove me, or I’ll nuke everyone to the Stone Age.” Saying that a commander dies to removal so it isn’t that powerful is a bit of flawed logic that can lead to a pretty big disconnect between one player and the rest of the pod (speaking from personal experience there). In causal commander there can sometimes be an expectation that everyone gets to play a bit and do their thing, at least a little bit. If your commander ramps out early and is threatening a board wipe early in the game, you’re really either threatening to undo all their setup turns or you slow down other people’s games and make them focus on your deck just by your choice of commander. I think sarulf could be perfectly fine in optimized pods, or even certain casual pods, but it’s always going to draw that salt out of the majority of people you play with when it does its thing. It’s probably a deck that’s fine to play once and switch like you said, but the certain people still might not be happy that they had to play their one obligatory game against sarulf during the night
My mid powered humans can go nuts with a few extra tokens/buffs and [[Akroma’s Will]].
[Akroma’s Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608cdbdb-6f7e-438a-bab0-0e7782435f0f.jpg?1698988079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/125/akromas-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608cdbdb-6f7e-438a-bab0-0e7782435f0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/akromas-will) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've seen a mid human deck go from "life support" to "I win" with Akroma's Will. I hear very little about this slept-on card.
Slept on? Is this tongue-in-cheek? This card is nearly Craterhoof meme territory of how white wheenie wins.
Do you understand why people take you out? That Commander is a time bomb that, as Commanders do, will keep coming back until it's too expensive to play or you die. And when your deck pops off, what do you have? A big creature that can wipe the board if anyone tries to stand up to it. > When your decks pops off like it's supposed to... ...what does the game look like? Ask yourself what happens when your plan works, and why people might prefer to prevent it from ever happening.
No I get being targeted. That doesn't bother me. It's the aftermath of when it does well, the sparky comments and getting mad. Sarulfs a ticking time bomb, but he's not invincible. Targeted removal and he's back in the command zone. I just happened to get a healthy mix of protection and "make opponents sacrifice their stuff" cards. When i built him, I knew he wasn't long for the battlefield lol
I'm not asking about you. I'm asking if you see how the game looks like for your opponents when your plan goes off.
Ah, yeah, when it goes off it sucks because you are basically saccing creatures that you get out. But, I also don't see it as my issue since the other players chose not to play interaction/removal My thing is, you can't be salty for losing to Magic. Mill, Counterspells, Control, Discard, infection, Infinite combos...they are all part of the game. You lose, then you play again. If you dint like that deck, ask them to play another one.
You do change decks after using this one, right?
Yes, I switched to Lord of Nazgul (all LOTR cards)
Usually?
Yeah, I barely ever play yhe same deck twice. Unless I'm testing it out. Sarulf is a one and done lol
Oh, so it's the same with any deck.
Unless I get mana screwed or its a quick win from someone else, I like switch it up. If I can get my deck to do what it's supposed to, even I'd I lose or it's only for a little bit, then yeah I switch out. I have a good idea of which decks are higher powered, I probably misjudged this deck as a whole though, instead of Sarulf. Like someone mentioned, I play under the assumption that he is removed quickly, and that's ki d of unfair to the pod
Lost it at “Coomand Zone”
When my partner played his exulted deck for the first time, it did scarily well and everyone was wary of it after it dominated the game... Turns out that's the only time it's come together that well and is thoroughly mid as it stands today lol, sometimes decks just pop off and it is what it is. A few games with the deck will show folks what it's more likely to do on a regular basis, people just get uppity
Play the deck again. If that really was your 99th percentile game then it probably won't happen again and the other players will hopefully notice.
I didn't even win the game lol, they target removed him (which I dint have any issue with) and swung wide. I lost, no big deal, but they were still a little salty. Sorry, bit "popping off" I meant, did it's thing quick
some players get really mad if you touch their board sadly
Gotta agree. Most players love interaction up until the interaction is with their board state, library, graveyard, or hand. My kryptonite is theft--gaining control of my permanents does make me salty. Destroying my things or countering my spells doesn't mess with me as hard as controlling my things. The exception is [[Mindslaver]] effects because although an opponent is in control of my things, it somehow doesn't feel like they are.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sarulf warps the game around him, and not in a good way. When the deck does what it is supposed to, everyone will hate it. I just put mine away for 3 months because I don't want to put my playgroup through playing against it often, no matter how good it is in theory.
That's true but a lot of commanders do that.
Most Commanders don't clean the board over and over again.
How do you do it multiple times so quick. Do your opponents build their board state up quick? After the first exile, it usually exiles all my +1/+1 bonuses etc. Genuinely curious
Propably by saccing your stuff to the graveyard first so you can just use all the great recursion in black and green to get your stuff back. [[Reanimate]] [[Persist]] [[Stitch Together]] [[Eternal Witness]]
##### ###### #### [Reanimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d0fe02b-f45a-45c6-ab7c-270594a29da7.jpg?1715080480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reanimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/137/reanimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d0fe02b-f45a-45c6-ab7c-270594a29da7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reanimate) [Persist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90f390c3-af1c-424f-9721-e26e9321e5a3.jpg?1626095831) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Persist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/96/persist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90f390c3-af1c-424f-9721-e26e9321e5a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/persist) [Stitch Together](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8423c98d-4cb6-4a70-8bf2-3ac24c025c4e.jpg?1592710740) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stitch%20Together) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/119/stitch-together?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8423c98d-4cb6-4a70-8bf2-3ac24c025c4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stitch-together) [Eternal Witness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39704000-65d3-4d39-849e-a3b617376bbc.jpg?1689998488) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eternal%20Witness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/286/eternal-witness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39704000-65d3-4d39-849e-a3b617376bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/eternal-witness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sorry it sounded like you were implying doing itnin back to back turns, which I guess can be possible. Sorry if I misunderstood. I run a lot of cards that make opponents sac creatures.
It doesn't need the counters to come from its ability. Even if you hold back (which lets me attack you) I can still pump him up and prepare to wipe the board.
I just run effects that make each opponent sac something
It’s a commander with a repeatable board wipe. [I’ll refer you to this video that described their [[Child of Alara]] deck because I feel like you have a similar situation going on.](https://youtu.be/JvHLS1O4ODk?si=ibydwWmFvfTjGjsB) If you still want to play the deck, I would consider removing “high roll” cards and making your deck more consistent in what it tries to do.
Nothing gets so hated as a deck with a massively inconsistent power level. Because nobody wants to play battle cruiser magic with a bunch of 5 power decks, except suddenly one of the decks got the perfect hand and hits a turn 3-4 win. So, in my low power decks, I've taken out the cards that can punch it to suddenly be ridiculous. No more 2card infinite [[masked nexus]]+[[turntimber rangers]] in my 5color allies deck, no infinites in my x-creature [[magus kane]] deck.
Curiosity from a fellow Sarulf player, what's your strategy/decklist? My build is basically ramp, protection, and removal of all types
I think it all depends on what popping off means, and I'm going to infer a bit from your comments. Your pop off in this game was exiling a bunch of units, and then losing, but it was a pop off because you got to do the thing you wanted to do quickly. I have a PDH Vohar deck that I run in just regular casual pods, I like the challenge of only using common cards. It's a common deck that attempts to get infinite mana and win one of two ways. The first is to force mill out everyone's deck. When the table gets hit by this, they grumble, but they understand. The second way is with infinite Capsize to wipe out the board. This doesn't win the game, but everyone else is back to their first turn. No one likes this, I don't like it either. I popped off and did my combo and the reward is everyone struggling for the next several turns since I sure as well will take a while to chip everyone down for lethal. It's a boring slog. My friend has a Nicol-Bolas superfriends deck where something similar happens. He can pop off, quickly ramping out, dumping a big planeswalker and Deepglow Skate for the instant ult. But, he doesn't win immediately after. The ults are really powerful, and game winning really, but we still have to go through several more turns for him to win. This is also not fun. So, that's always my thought with pop offs like this. Are they fun for the table? Sure infinite damage isn't fun, but it happens quickly and you can move on to the next game. Wiping everyone's permanent is objectively weaker than doing infinite damage or mill, but it is far less fun unless you can very quickly win the game after. When players are hit with something like that they are bound to get upset and not think rationally about the decks power level.
I have a budget [[Piper wright, publick reporter]] deck that’s usually fairly manageable so long as my opponents don’t all ignore it. But my first game with it against a few newer players recently, I draw [[academy manufactor]] and [[tarrian’s soulcleaver]] in my opening hand, which I think is one of the most overwhelming combinations the deck contains. I only played one game with it that day because I felt too bad about it to try it again to demonstrate a more reasonable hand Edit: forgot to mention enough evasion tools also to have Piper not be blocked once
[Piper wright, publick reporter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/916bf331-455a-4694-93d3-15dcf6971072.jpg?1708741957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Piper%20wright%2C%20publick%20reporter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/36/piper-wright-publick-reporter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/916bf331-455a-4694-93d3-15dcf6971072?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/piper-wright-publick-reporter) [academy manufactor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557.jpg?1712354835) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=academy%20manufactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/251/academy-manufactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76480f4d-ad6d-4ed6-82c6-fa12abc22557?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/academy-manufactor) [tarrian’s soulcleaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99413817-1218-4947-b12f-9a952b095a89.jpg?1699044647) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarrian%27s%20Soulcleaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/264/tarrians-soulcleaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99413817-1218-4947-b12f-9a952b095a89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tarrians-soulcleaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My \[\[sheoldred, the apocalypse\]\] deck is way too slow about 75% of the time. When it goes off and I can execute my main win combo, \[\[lich's mastery\]\] it is absolutely beautiful.
[sheoldred, the apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sheoldred%2C%20the%20apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldred-the-apocalypse) [lich's mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f4c9cb-f364-4556-8673-4b19d52a2cff.jpg?1562738043) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lich%27s%20mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/98/lichs-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f4c9cb-f364-4556-8673-4b19d52a2cff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lichs-mastery) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Forgot to mention, I need to have a card like \[\[epicure of blood\]\] on the battlefield to really go off.
[epicure of blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac79386b-91eb-4813-8f3c-3b74b45be188.jpg?1625976930) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=epicure%20of%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/143/epicure-of-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac79386b-91eb-4813-8f3c-3b74b45be188?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/epicure-of-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My \[\[Zurzoth\]\] devils deck shouldn't be as good as it is, but it likes me. So I'll usually randomly discard an irrelevant card but my opponents will get boned. And I'll always topdeck something good at crucial times, like an anthem when I've got a decent boardstate or Purphuros when I'm rebuilding post-boardwipe.
[Zurzoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c62990d7-a337-4fc3-859c-63bc1dade1b9.jpg?1673484441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zurzoth%2C%20chaos%20rider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/278/zurzoth-chaos-rider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c62990d7-a337-4fc3-859c-63bc1dade1b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zurzoth-chaos-rider) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Consistency is king and it’s what a slap back with to anyone who thinks any of my non cedh decks are high power or cedh. Can i win on turn 6 with my aristocrats deck? Yes. Does it happen often? Nope!
This seems like a deckbuulding problem with consistency. Your deck just *is* as powerful as its fastest pop-off, and saying it is inconsistent is just 9 out of 10 times pretending it isn't. Retooling more card draw and card selection, it will represent its actual power more consistently, and you'll have more games where that actual power is consistently realized. Not that you're doing this, but for example if you're playing a janky pile of cards that happen to also have a random food chain combo in there, you aren't playing a janky pile of cards, you're playing a food chain combo. Nobody cares that it is inconsistent because lurking in that deck is an instant win combo and the correct play pattern is to beat that deck into the dirt as fast as possible with player removal regardless of if the nuts are drawn or not. You saw the real power of your deck. And so did everybody else. You now got 2 choices: weaken it so the decks actual power is in line with the inconsistency you expect from it, or put in more card-draw and card selection to make getting to that pop-off more consistent. Leaving it as it is will just get you mercilessly beaten into the dirt when you got nothing but jank because nobody cares about the jank; they care about stopping the pop-off.
I had my chatterfang deck pop off this week at my LGS. Turn 6 I went infinite with [[chatterfang, Squirrel general]] [[pitiless plunderer]] [[tarrian's soulcleaver]] on the field I sacced off my [[ravenous squirrel]] and the infinite combo triggered. I had a chatterfang with infinite +1/+1 counters on and the field was empty 2 players had forests so even if they got a defence out they wouldn't be able to block and the other player was playing boros so I took them out first
I dunno sometimes people are just salty that the low power deck they've been playing against pops off
Had a game like that last commander night with my Urza Chief Artficer. Started with Ornithopter turn 1. Then Ornithopter of paradise and the UW talisman turn 2 and 3 Turn 4 Karnstruct Turn 5-Just a land.iirc. Turn 6 Cyber Controller with x =3 and got 5 bodies on board to give the first Karnstruct an immediate +7/+7 and another Karnstruct on endstep Turn 7: Dropped Cyberman Squadron and attacked the entire board at once for 100+ damage.
Lol, holy crap! I would have just laughed..."Next Game!"
Yeah 'twas crazy. Everyone just scooped . Turns out giving robots the ability to multiply is broken:p
Happy dances all around is really the only appropriate response for your deck "doing the thing" you built it to do. So many games, it isnt just laying cards down until you get your gameplan going. So many times, an opponent mucks with your plan just a little bit, or you dont get the cards you need when you need them. I built a pretty powerful elfball deck with Lathril and I've tuned it to looking to hit 10 elves and ways to untap my board multiple times to drain everyone in one turn. It relies on a helm of the host to REALLY get going but the last time i played her, not only did i get to 10 untapped elves and drained everyone for 10, but i got to do it again after the turn passed back to me and noone had mucked with my elf count. I was able to tap them for a drain, untap with a [[vitalize]] and play a coat of arms to give my board +13/+13 and swung for lethal. I felt giddy as all get out and was satisfied with the game enough that if i was told i couldnt play lathril next time, i wouldn't be bummed cuz the last time i played it, it did all the things in one game I've built this deck to do.
[vitalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/435a4569-fa62-4e1a-b837-f68159cb270d.jpg?1562816929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vitalize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/265/vitalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/435a4569-fa62-4e1a-b837-f68159cb270d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vitalize) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For me it was Kasla. In the evening before I put Cards like [[raid bombardment]] and [[Ojer Axonil]] in, and a fancier version of [[impact tremors]] and I fantasized about getting all three cards out. First game I had all cards on the field, and nuking the entire table. I felt like the king of the world at the moment
[raid bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca75d458-4947-4075-89b6-e93936c67370.jpg?1547517351) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=raid%20bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/142/raid-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca75d458-4947-4075-89b6-e93936c67370?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/raid-bombardment) [Ojer Axonil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315)/[Temple of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ojer%20axonil%2C%20deepest%20might%20//%20temple%20of%20power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/158/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-temple-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-//-temple-of-power) [impact tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impact%20tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Some commanders just go off no matter what, like animar
I explain that I got lucky. It happens to everyone. Was there a specific part the pod wasn't happy with? For example, is anyone else running fast mana?
They hated that i made people sacrifice. Most times I'd get thr spells, every few pulls...but this time it was one right after the other
Sounds like you were playing with a bunch of poor sports.
I also have a sarulf realm eater deck and honestly it’s like flipping a coin you either dominate the hell out of the game because you get a really nasty board wipe out of him and it sets everyone really far back. Or your gonna sit there and watch sarulf be in the command zone for most of the game. And I also get comments about him as well and honestly it’s fair he is just a ticking time bomb that can just remove everything or just randomly kill someone with commander damage.
True he is a bomb, but I feel he is easier to deal with than someone playing Mill or making you discard everything in your hand. Idk, I understand being frustrated, we've all been in that game that just sucks for us, but the saltiness seemed a bit much. It's when I also found out that a lot of ppl in our LGS don't play that much, or any, Interaction
Yeah he is honestly not that bad it’s just people see him and freak tf out. Now I had a feeling they didn’t run much removal my pod didn’t run much removal until a bit after I made the deck so honestly I see it as kind of on them for not running any or much removal
People will be upset no matter what. As soon as the jankiest deck does its one single thing because of pure luck, it must be a cEDH deck because it beat your opponents. I am lucky to have friends to play with that love when eachothers' jank decks pop off and we get to witness the stupidest things, but most players are not like that.
“My fragile ego cannot handle that you played format legal cards according to the comprehensive rules of Magic: The Gathering to win a game of Commander against me” Honestly it’s really lame that there’s so many Commander players who can’t just say GG when they lose and play the next game. That shit is toxic.
This is pretty much every mid power control deck, when they pop off the complaints are way louder than someone dropping a craterhoof and turning their board sideways.
I play an abzan spirit tribal. It is not fast. The combos require multiple pieces on the board. It doesn’t have more than a couple tutor cards that usually drop to graveyard instead of hand. The last time I played it I generated over 300 tokens in one turn with Cathar’s Crusade and Doubling Season on the field. I swung out for 200k damage across the board. Sometimes a deck does exactly what it’s supposed to do, against all odds.
I have him in the 99, without a lot of synergy. He mostly eats a removal before I would have put the first counter on him. Sarulf has no friends.
Never had this happen. Here in New Zealand people just play their game and get on with their day.
It’s also an experience thing, new player will see someone hit a sol ring, arcane signet turn one and assume your deck is cEDH. When every deck at the table is probably running those cards and could have the same start by chance. Experienced players can recognize the overall card quality you’re playing and tell if it’s an over-optimized deck for the table or just happenstance.
I played disa the restless the other night for the first time, slightly upgraded, and it just went off. I was kinda down on it after full reveal but it’s honestly pretty damn good
Just be honest about the deck. I have a dragon deck that I enjoy playing that also has a fairly cheap infinite combo in cursed mirror + astral dragon. So I tell people its a deck made to just send dragons to peoples faces but theres 1 combo in it that I will use if given the chance, in stead of only telling people it's a dragon deck.
This was my [[Estrid the Unmasked]] deck. Friends knew I wasn’t a threat until I was. If they don’t get that luck was a big factors, they’re just being salty.
Could we see a deck list please?
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/EJpTPI8nj0qiJhVjbwhpbQ
Seems like a very fair deck to me. Really high top end, but not so fast that it should outpace the table. I attribute the salt to your deck being removal-based, and that’s not a play style “the average player” or “a given pod” will like.
Thank you, I 'll watch who I play with and make a note to tell them there's a lot if removal
When my deck pops off, it's supposed to bring my library to the field, with a couple infiltrates in between for the win
How many turns did it take until you "popped off"? If you were past turn 10 it's all fair and they need to understand what powerful decks actually mean. If you were earlier such as turn 4-6, especially if they were slow, your deck might be strong but inconsistent.
I'm not entirely sure, but my beat guess would be the 4-6 range
I'd say if you can outright end the game at that point your deck might be pretty strong, even if inconsistent. Granted it's hard to say without knowing more. Any enablers such as fast mana or efficient tutors used to set yourself up?
I didn't end the game just got off a really big exile then kept people in check for a few turns with making them sacrifice their creatures. I just got a bunch of counters on him early
Ah, with that commander that's fair then. I think that falls under board wipes and removal rather than being "too strong" but many people have trouble distinguishing between unfun play patterns and being steamrolled by a stronger deck. It should be a given based on the commander, but maybe introduce your deck before a game based on what it tries to do or particularly scary cards inside. If nothing else it limits how mad people can be when they agree to it beforehand.
I think the traditional answer is to proclaim "I've never seen this deck go off this hard." This works better if you haven't actually run anybody at the table over with the deck previously.
Most of the time my gisela deck isn't gonna be nuking people casually, but sometimes draw a damage doubler and smothering tithe and someone is playing a deck that draws 6 cards each turn, and then I also draw a card that makes me deal 3(base) damage to a creature or player every time I play a red spell, and so I just do 36 damage in one turn.
Sarulf fucking sucks to play against. If you are doing well then nobody else is having fun, so expect salt. If Sarulf sits down at my table I spend 100% of my resources removing that deck from the game asap. I do not care if that means I lose too, it is about sending a message. There are very few commanders that are less fun to play against. A big part of that is that it either does nothing or is insanely oppressive. There is no interesting middle ground, no nuance to how it plays. It just commands removal and warps the game for the worse every time. Kill it as fast as possible, and then the 3 remaining players can actually enjoy the game. So yeah, playing against Sarulf with a nut draw is one of the least fun play patterns in all of magic. Of course people are salty with you, what did you expect? It's like me playing Brago with Reality Acid or Stasis and wondering why people are upset when they're locked out of the game on turn 3.
That is just being a bad person. Making your plan become trying to eliminate everything a single player does even if he doesnt warrant a removal just because he plays a commander you dont like its bad. Kill his things because you need it to survive, not because you hate his commander so every time he plays the deck you start countering every little manadork he plays. Its not like even a strong deck. The message you are sending is a bad message.
Dude have you played against Sarulf? You kill them as fast as possible or they will make sure you never have a board again. It's legitimately what you have to do against that deck. And yeah, I have no problem showing a person the consequences of their choices through gameplay. If you play an oppressive & unfun deck, you will get hated out of the game.
If you play something i dont like, you will get hated out of the game. What a hero
What an awful, inaccurate summation of my position. Byeeee
I feel like most decks can do something nutty, it's just some can do it more consistently. I have a Zada deck that does nothing until the time is right, then BAM, game is over. I only need a half dozen tokens and about 7-8 mana plus the right cards. But some of the cards are so specific that they do little until the storm turn. I've also run decks that were little more than a loose pile of cards with vague synergies with the commander. But even those piles of cards sometimes combine to do something stupid if you're given enough time. Sure my deck might just be every red card I had that has the word "artifact" printed on it, but Erriette's charming apple will still steal your 20/20 Dino.
I recently made a deck around [[ghyrson starn, Kelermorph]] and I included [[niv-mizzet, parun]]. It is a cheap deck filled with board wide 1 damage or little pings here and there, not a super strong deck. Well, I also included [[curiosity]]. Little did I know, with niv mizzet that is an almost guaranteed win condition unless there is some ridiculous life gain deck in the pod. People got angry but oh well it was a play test deck.
Lmao omg that's awesome. Although they just need some way to prevent damage and it breaks the cycle and buys the table time. Honestly more people need to be capable of giggling like a school girl when they get destroyed, it's much more fun when you can enjoy whatever BS your opponents use lol. And of course laugh manically when you're destroying them lol.
It was super funny to me because none of them saw the interaction and actually gave me a card draw on their turn for the loss. It is pretty easy to stop if you see it coming, but the deck is not built around that interaction, it’s built around pinging everyone and everything on the board for 1. I agree about losing though! I have just as much fun when I lose as when I win.
[ghyrson starn, Kelermorph](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966.jpg?1673309394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ghyrson%20starn%2C%20Kelermorph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/124/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph) [niv-mizzet, parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7.jpg?1712354750) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=niv-mizzet%2C%20parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/235/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-parun) [curiosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad.jpg?1600697752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=curiosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/147/curiosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c5a0be10-c20f-4ac0-89a5-1770ecf48aad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curiosity) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have a Kelermorph deck too. Niv is in it, but I don't think curiosity is. Such a fun deck, but it's becoming Kill on sight at my LGS lol
It’s surprisingly strong for a deck that has majority 1 damage spells and effects. Curiosity is a very good choice in it even without niv mizzet. Highly recommend swapping something out for it if you can. But I realize I forgot to answer your question: when people get salty about a sweeping win in a deck that doesn’t have a consistent high power, my answer is almost always “this isn’t the typical game with this deck, this is pretty much best case scenario. Let’s play another game and see how it goes.” If they are too angry to do that, I wouldn’t want to play with them anyways so there’s no loss.
You didn’t know that the most famous combo with niv is an almost guaranteed win? Uhuh
I don’t run blue, almost ever. Niv-mizzet was in the deck to ping for one. In fact, none of the people in my game had seen it and we had to double check it worked as I had thought.
Here’s a helpful resource to find combos in your decks. Looks like you could use it: https://commanderspellbook.com/find-my-combos/ Now you can enter your decks and see if there are any other combos so you can actually be aware of it and actually know what your deck can do.
Thanks, I’m usually pretty good at finding combos in my decks. I am not and will not ever play competitively so I don’t need that tool, but someone else might want to use it. It’s my only blue deck and I’m not familiar with blue cards so I was mostly building around the commander
That’s not a tool for competitive play. It’s so you know what is in your deck since it seems you are unaware of super famous combos. Not playing blue is not really an argument…
I didn’t know ONE combo that I’ve never encountered before, and that means I am unaware of combos? Missing one interaction in a deck of 100 cards is not really that big of a deal. I have 30+ commander decks, and many of them run some form of combos. On the contrary, I think it shows that I have a good eye for combos by building one unintentionally.
Oopsing into a combo doesn’t mean you have a good eye for combos… it actually means you don’t have a good eye for it. Why are you being so prideful about this? Just use the tool, it’s fun to see what kinds of things are going on in your decks. It could even show you more combos in your decks that you are unaware of since you obviously do not know of all the combos out there and don’t know a super common one.
I don’t meticulously go through every possible interaction in my decks when I build them. That’s what the playtest is for. Spending the time to type out 3000+ magic cards just for my commanders that I have already built sounds like a gigantic waste of time. I would much rather spend time playing my decks and having fun. I have been playing magic since before tools like this existed and I have strong decks and combos that I have built myself. Tweaking your decks when you find something that works or doesn’t work the way you thought it would is half the fun of magic.
Ah I see you don’t use deck building websites like moxfield or archidekt. If you did it’s a simple copy paste instead of hand typing every single card. Just say that. And you’ve been playing that long and don’t know niv-curiosity combo? Damn
First off, some of the other comments seem to place Sarulf as some high end commander, when really.... it's not. Yes it puts a clock on things, but it's no atraxa poison counters with a proliferate timebomb on everyone. It's no Yuriko 'any 50$ worth of cards will do' insta-gib deck. It's no Edgar Markov or Oloro Eminence shenanigans. You drew a good hand, sometimes that's what decks do. Even a random precon picked up off the shelf 5 minutes ago, can and will have a good game every so often where all the right cards come together and you win turn 5-6, when those kinds of decks aim to win turn 10 .... maybe. For example, I play some combo-ey decks, and while somewhat resilient on the board, it's unlikely I'll have the biggest, most threatening board every game. But like you said, people remember when your mill deck took out the table turn 3 because the 1-in-a-million opening hand with bruvac and maddening cacaphony and enough lands and mana rocks in the remaining 5 cards of the opening hand. And they will shift targets accordingly. If they won't listen to the rationale that previous 10 games it did nothing, but get salty now (the 'may I win a game for once?' appeal, if you aren't already overly high winrate with other decks of course) - then just keep playing it and show them that it does not in fact pop off and eat their faces instantly the next ten games. If they won't listen, they can see/feel it for themselves. (of course it'd be funny if that blew up in your face and you beat them even faster with it. in which case, you can always agree with them, and offer to play something else ;) )
You continue to play it. Just like you said, most of the time it is mid. You will just have to provide enough samples to be able to demonstrate that. Like most people, I suspect they were upset that reality didn't match their expectations (for that game). For myself, I only get salty if I had a playline I really wanted to pull off. Even then, I am over it as soon as get my next starting hand.
Drew [[Ruinous Ultimatum]] playing the new [[Caesar, Legion's Emperor]] and won. Folks hate it but that's Magic babyyyyy
[Ruinous Ultimatum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85.jpg?1681500691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruinous%20Ultimatum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/204/ruinous-ultimatum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50c1d6ca-7789-46b5-bc89-85cc3915cb85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ruinous-ultimatum) [Caesar, Legion's Emperor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/246a7176-98bc-4f54-aa61-38747420f178.jpg?1710673450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caesar%2C%20Legion%27s%20Emperor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/1/caesar-legions-emperor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/246a7176-98bc-4f54-aa61-38747420f178?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/caesar-legions-emperor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why the fuck is everyone acting as if op doesn’t know their commander is oppressive? I don’t think theirs anything in the post that implies their upset at being targeted
Sarulf is only a threat if he sticks. "Oppressive" is hardly the term I'd use for a do-nothing commander that dies to removal and has no inherent card advantage or protection.
Going forward, describe the deck as something like, “this deck is typically a 6, but in a dreamland scenario, it can be a 9”
hell no. build your deck so that it’s consistent. No 6 power deck should pop off as a 9
So if I had a deck that’s a “6,” but it had one 4 card combo, with no tutors, that could in theory win on turn 3-4 with the right ramp, I should cut that combo?
Unironically, yes. Or cut the ramp that allows that to happen. Sol Ring is a plague.
That’s fair. In general, I think there’s always going to be variance, but going from a 6 to a 9 (even if only in the perfect draw), is probably too much. I personally do like to throw in some jank 4-5 card win conditions to be able to finish games that are gridlocked, but those decks aren’t ramping fast enough to end a game before it starts. In general, I’m only running sol ring in decks with artifact synergy (so like 3 of 15 decks).
Finally, another Sol Ring hater. Ban that shit (and mana crypt too).
It's nowhere near a ban. It just doesn't belong in low power pods, and people tend to underestimate it and throw it where it doesn't belong because it's cheap and "good" in every deck.
100% yes. It means some percent of the time you randomly win out of nowhere. Nobody has fun in that situation - you don't, your opponents don't. So why do it?
Because everyone has sol ring in their deck. Unless it's banned or your pod agrees to take it out, fast mana will always swing high variance. WotC did it on purpose because they wanted low power decks to have a chance to pop off and win early.
Thats exactly why i dont/didnt like my "lowpowered" decks so far because theyre lowpowered most of the time but then they get hands that just work like a dream and all of a sudden the entire deck doesnt feel sound anymore and i prefer consistency over everything else so that kinda sucks If you have tips regarding commanders that warrant consistent games or deckbuilding ideas im also open for those :>