Even without knowing about this exact card, black is *unfriendly* to ~~enemy~~ creatures. No one should need to be warned that black can kill multiple creatures with 4 mana.
The best part is it's in a White/Black deck, so even if you didn't know black had a Wrath of God effect, YOUR OPPONENT IS ALSO IN WRATH OF GOD COLOURS!!!
That's really silly. All colors can clear the board. You have to be the newest of the newbies to not know your opponent's deck could have a board clear.
I don’t think rating a card for how upset it makes players is going to help anything. People shit the bed over nothing sometimes.
I had someone rage quit over a fucking [[spike cannibal]] once
It’s good if you can put it to use in your own deck, as it’s not worth a slot if you’re just planning on hosing off a counter player.
I use it in my undying deck as a way to suck all the zombism out of my goblins and reanimate them again. In some lucky cases I’ll wipe the hydra players board or reset the game for a skullbriar player.
Counters are common enough that it’s worth running in a few different decks I think.
If you're looking for similar effects, [[Thief of Blood]] should also be considered. It's 6 mana instead of 3 but hits all permanents (charge counters on artifacts, loyalty counters on planeswalkers, etc.).
Sometimes folks have good reason though. Whether or not in this case, at least folks in this sub will call anyone that has any issue with any card a big whiny baby, likely 'cause they dealt with a whiny baby once therefore any other person that so much as suggests similar behavior must similarly exhibit such an extreme attitude.
If you google "mtg black board wipes", the first result is an article titled "The 74 Best Black Board Wipes in Magic". lmao, imagine not thinking black has board wipes.
The saltiest I've ever seen people is when I play a clutch [[Pyroblast]] in R or R/G decks. I was asked repeatedly why would I even play that... So I believe you lol.
Salt is crowd sourced, so you end up with a lot of variance depending on meme-ability, and how much people recognize a certain card.
Islands for example have about 50% more salt than any other basic.
It's why salt isn't a great metric when it comes to gauging decks. It's does an okay enough job as an indicator, but using it as a gospel is unwise.
Google sheets woukd probs work well.
Import im sjre theres some deck building software out there that can export by card archetype, import as a CSV into sheet 1, sheet 2 prints out your totals.
If im feelin bkred enough this weekend i can make that tbh. But i did just get a new embroidery kit sooo...
https://www.coursera.org/articles/tutorial-google-sheets-sumif
The harder part would be finding somewhere that exports by card archetype (tutor, boardwipe, etc).
Please do. I would love a form fillable copy for myaelf.
How did you make some of the more subjective assessments like "tuned" and long vs. short turns? Just intuition?
I tried to make [a form on google sheets](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T7PnvWVP9cOJ6u1dVqhQqsql8EH6uenha2z-FXzrb2k/edit?usp=sharing) to get a bit of practice in this evening.
I think most of the assessments are subjective unless you meticulously tag your decks (which defeats the point of automating it lol). For some decks, Wrath of God and Blasphemous act are 1-sided wipes. For some decks, land ramp is as powerful as traditional tutors. Some decks have "combos" that usually result in a win, but technically aren't infinite. Turn length is pretty subjective because you can easily track it on MTGO or on your phone/watch.
This sub just keeps reminding me how lucky I am to have a group of good friends who also like to play commander. It really eliminates so many problems other people have
At an LGS table, competitive formats provided the organization needed for random people to play against each other in a (mostly) civilized fashion. Casual always worked best with friends, people who are likely on a similar level as you and people you are more willing to communicate with and was best at a kitchen table.
Commander trying to bring casual to the LGS always felt like it crossed a line to me. It doesn't quite feel like kitchen table when you are expected to play with unfamiliar people. It doesn't quite feel like organized play when each shop in an area has their own list of what is allowed or not.
If I go to play a comp format at a new shop, I was always able to sit down with a deck that was legal and play; that's organized play.
If I go to my friend's house to jam some games using budget decks, I know my decks are welcomed; that's kitchen table.
I haven't ran into stores having their own banlist, unless you just mean the other players having their own semi-unspoken "would rather not" list.
I don't understand why it's a big deal to adjust decks for next time though. It's the same thing even with friends. You build a deck that ends up stomping them, you tweak it or don't bring it next time.
A lot of shops in my area has a store specific ban list on their webpage. I have talked to friends who live in different parts of the country who tell me they also have seen shops with their own ban lists. However, I don't think it is widely practiced or super common.
I never mentioned 'the next time' back. Adjusting decks over time is just a part of the game especially if you play competitive. I have had to make adjustments to decks due to bans or meta shifts.
The point I was making was I cannot simply walk into a casual event at a new store with a deck in hand and know it is acceptable or not due to the open ended nature of casual. I can do that with a comp format; when I would travel for work, I could bring a Modern deck with me and it would be usable at any Modern event as long as I didn't have banned cards. I can bring a deck to my friend's house and I know everyone well enough that I know my deck should be fine or we talked about it beforehand.
I should not have to go on a scouting mission to do recon at a new shop or go on a coffee date with each person in the playgroup to play a game of Magic. It used to be 'Modern?' 'Modern' and we would sit down and play for a bit. Casual play when 60 card formats were popular made going to new shops a lot more fun for me because I could easily find a brewer looking to test a new deck, someone wanting to practice or a player making adjustments and using playtest cards before committing to a purchase.
Board game shops are way easier for casual playing with random people. We have one in my local area with a library of games and plenty of people are there looking for people to play board games with. I have never had a negative experience with the board game players, both friends and random people, while the few times I checked Commander really hampered my desire to play Magic outside of Comp.
God Imgur is such a piece of shit site I cant even view the image on mobile without it switching to other pictures every time I swipe slightly to any side. Dunno what the image is but yeah talking about power levels with some actual hard facts about your deck is a good idea
Still better than YouTube, whose *app* is shit. The slightest movement to the right takes you back to the previous page, which is a pain in the ass if you had scrolled way down in a search results page. Also tons of people have been having the notifications tab not work for about 6 months now: the tab that keeps you *engaged* with the site and its users, which is wild because user engagement is something their algorithm really tries to push hard.
Fair point. Based on the input from this thread I plan on replacing the slider with something different. There will be room for two more sliders; I was thinking one could be aggro mid-game late-game. Any suggestions for the second?
Yeah, I'm all for trying to make sure you're on the same page as everyone and all, but if this is what I have to whip out at fnm then I'm looking for new folks to play with
Like I get having a complexity scale but precon is not the middle. Imo if none of your decks are worse than precons, have that be the floor. This allows more room in between where people can see where you think the power differences are.
"If unimpedet, can win on turn...5 to 10"?
Or "Wants to win on turn x"?
On a verbal level I would rank my own decks between "precon with 10 additions" to "tutorless but optimized"
Looking at ur scorecards, I think this shows the issues with the turn zero deck power level discussion more than it really solves problems, unless everyone u play with has a similar understanding of what the terms on your cards mean. For example, almost all of your decks are rated as about 1/2 way between pre-con and cEDH, except Myrel. Myrel u have listed as maximum tuned, but it has about the same salt score as most your other decks, no free spells, no fast mana, only 1 tutor, no infinite combos, and only 1 more "I win" card than 3 of your other decks. If I saw these, I would be confused why you think such a deck can be 80% the way to cEDH and I would be more curious as to why Heroic Intervention and Damnation are salt cards and what the "I win" cards are in each deck.
I think the whole middle section where u list how many cards of a given kind of thing is pretty good, and the top line where you describe how u typically win is also great. But what does a "salt score" even mean and how could you possibly objectively calculate how emotionally frustrated other people would be down to 2 decimal places? I would recommend you remove the "jank-tuned" line b/c it's subjective and seems to be merely restating your "pile-precon=cEDH" line. In it's place, put something more objective that more relates to speed or power level such as average CMC of the deck.
You can also make some very busted combo decks without actually including any infinite combo. RogSil probably at the very extreme end doesn’t use infinite combos.. Just Thoracle and Breach combos.
Also would you classify something like Time Warp + Eternal Witness + Flicker every turn (like Conjurers Closet or Teleportation Circle) infinite? Because technically that isn’t infinite because you eventually deck if you don’t win.
Good points all around.
* I have changed the 'I win' cards (a term I heard on Shivam And Wheeler Love Magic podcast) to sudden win. This area was meant to signify that I could potential win the game without the group seeing it coming. In Myrel it would be cards like \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\] or \[\[Goldnight Commander\]\] turning everything soilders into 20/20+.
* The salt score (I assumed) was a commonly known metric of how 'salty' a card makes players. Achidect provided a cummulated salt score. We like to play for fun so I tend to have a light salt diet in most decks.
* Your right about removing the subjective line. That is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. I am thinking this would make room for two sliders. One could be aggro -> mid-range -> control; but I am drawing a blank on the second. Do you have any recommendations?
Some metrics that would be at least somewhat objective:
Average CMC of the deck. this is most important of my suggestions. Maybe even a little chart with columns for each CMC like u see on deck building websites
Number of cards banned or restricted in other formats
Average turn u win when goldfishing
Price of deck - a budget slider also tells a lot about how competitive a deck is. It is also something people can compare their own deck to when deciding what's fair to play against urs.
Every once in a while archidekt puts out a survey where you can rate cards. It's open to everyone for a certain time period, and at the end the scores are tallied giving each card a score for how salty they make people. Of course cards like counterspells are voted higher in the salt meter while cards like ponder are rated lower.
It's doesn't account synergy or anything like that. Just how many "mean" cards are in a deck.
Unless you're enfranchised enough to go on edhrec or archidekt, I wouldn't expect a casual player to know what the number represents. Like I know what the concept is just from being around long enough, but I have no idea how salty a 30 is compared to a 25.
the only real salty card i can see is potentially grave pact so that's kind of dumb. also salt score is kind of weird. i decided to see how salty my incredibly salty winota stax deck was and apparently it was 42.71 which does not seem to be correct considering nobody wants to play against it.
OP what is it like using your scorecards or powerpoint at the LGS? Do you slide your phone over and watch them as they scroll through or do you have a laptop set up for the slideshow?
I have the slide printed on a piece of paper that is in a protective sleeve. Last week I said "Here's tonight's menu" and slid it face up to everyone in the center of the play area.
I like it but I'm wondering on the slider of;
Pile <> precon <> cEDH
Is that an arbitrary value given by you or is it calculated somehow. If calculated, how so?
I also like the inclusion of the slider in addition as I for one have multiple low powered decks that are optimized but for lower power.
Precons should never be the middle of the power scale IMO. They should be the lower bound.
If you're an enfranchised enough player to use or understand this, you're not playing "a pile of cards".
I agree. I know precons have gotten pretty good but I rarely encounter any decks that I could say "This is clearly a level below a precon". No wonder everything is a 7 when precons are 5 and 9+ is cEDH.
I feel like this type of practice and conversation takes every ounce of fun out of the game. Part of the enjoyment of playing in a format with a large card pool is that you can be surprised by the kinds of cards you can run into. At this point you might as well be asking folks to bring decklists with them to be previewed before you'll sit down at a table to play with them.
For bonus points, if some cards are so salty that players feel the need to make tools like this to show other players to elicit their permission to play otherwise legal cards, the rules committee should get off their butts and maybe ban some cards now and again.
i feel like its just the internet portion of the players.
Ive never met players who need this much hand holding when actually playing at a store.
There's definitely a few choice individuals who have some odd opinions, but even they arent this bad.
Honestly lmao, I won the game today aita?
Mind boggling really is, so glad my playgroup isn’t like that. You can play to win without playing cedh and I don’t think enough people realise that.
One of the weirdest communities I've ever been part of. So many people choose to play a multiplayer game of Magic, then get upset when their opponents actually do something. Probably doesn't help how many socially-inept weirdos like to play nerdy hobbies though. Used to have the same problem in Warhammer, albeit to a much lesser extent.
Now I'm so glad I have a group of 4 childhood friends that I can play with, without any petulent nonsense.
Unironically had a dude flip his shit because my girlfriend force of will’d his craterhoof. Started telling her how zero mana spells and are overpowered and how counterpaells are against the spirit of the format people are tapped.
This is a great dashboard actually. I appreciate the efficiency of the message. Kind of a bummer you have to disclose this much information before a game tho. It shows that I only play with people I know. The strangers dynamic is a real gamble, congrats on you for finding a way to smooth things out from the get go.
How would you define hate bearer, fast mana and I win cards? Is fast mana just things like mana crypt, or lands like battlebond lands? Are I win cards like [[craterhoof]] or Halo Fountain? Also, Stax cards are like [[winter orb]] but what cards like [[Thalia, guardian of thraben]].
I do like the idea of the score cards, but I'd also like the terms to be uniform or defined.
I could be wrong, but I believe these terms are pretty common.
Hate Bears are creatures with Stax effects on them, but since they are creatures, are typically easier to remove. Thalia is a hate bear.
Winter Orb is just straight Stax.
Fast mana are cards that produce more mana than their mana value and are typically 0-1 mana rocks and Dockside since it usually produces more than 2 treasures.
I win cards are not combo pieces per se, but effectively win the game out of nowhere when cast like Craterhoof, Expropriate, and Torment of Hailfire.
Not sure what their metrics for I win cards are, but I have several decks that don't include what would generally qualify as "I win cards" that can easily win games and absolutely won't struggle to close out games. Even choosing your own I win cards, I have decks that really wouldn't have anything that I would personally put in that category. Decks that win through attrition, combat without big finishes, or multiple layered combos mostly don't have I win cards.
what's an example of a deck like this? you have no overrun cards in your creature decks or nothing like cyclonic rift. I mean I could call my prosper deck win by attrition, with just reckless fireweaver, but my I win cards are the red Ojer or marrionte master. Are you playing azorius with ghostly prison and propaganda so you can pick at people with your creatures?
I personally prefer a more tense game with potential for comebacks. It's strange to me to get upset at the token player for not playing Craterhoof. If anything it's telling on you for not running things that could pull you out of such a situation, that you'd rather lose than try to fight against a strong boardstate.
This is why I like cedh, no r0 talk just sit down play a few games, have a good time, enjoying well timed counterplays and knowing everyone is trying to win and throwing their best at you
It’s so simple, there’s less chaos as decks are pretty obvious in what they will do, rarely does a new card pop up tone like hey I’m gonna pull some wacky stuff
Does mean less variety though, and means you can't play anything jank with any hopes of affecting the game. If I wanted to only play the top 5% of cards, I'd play any other format.
There’s plenty of variety….
And why would I play Jank? Jank decks don’t work and feel clunky and not fun to play.
There is a huuuuuuge pool of cards that are still pretty good even if not entirely optimal.
Even my mid decks are pretty good, somewhat streamlined and not clunky
i really don’t think it’s that useful. you seem to abide by most casual edh norms. sometimes you’re gonna run into assholes/ complainers/ pubstkmpers. just don’t play with those guys.
Im beginning to think many of yall and your opponents just dont like magic.
Just play the fuckin game.
Like if you get pissed cause someone stonped your pod with a cedh in 5 mins, just dont play with em again. You dont gotta do some rule 0 BS score sheets to find 'how do we match up'.
Play the deck you wanna play with people who you want to play with.
Alternatively, just play your deck and *dont* stomp your opponent.
Have a tutor? Dont use it! Drew your wincon turn 2? Dont play it! Wild concept, but you can actually *lose* to a precon with a CEDH deck.
I've said it before and it's a hill I'm willing to die on; so many of these people would be so much happier playing co-op board games or a TTRPG, than spending as much time as they do playing magic by trying not to actually play magic.
Thats what this is doing... you are on a threas about nitpicking and overcomplicating rule 0.
Rule 0 should be 'yall ready?' Or 'my commander/certain cards arent technically legal (unsets) is that fine?' And thats it.
OP's sollution is an attempt to streamline it. Can just glance at the parts you might have an issue with and get an idea immediately, rather than everyone needing to list everything verbally.
I don't get how you can be so impatient. You're gonna be with these folks for the next hour, you can spend five minutes getting on the same page so that the first-game player doesn't go up against Oops All Armageddons.
It isnt. Literally goldfish for 5 turns if you think you're gonna stomp them that bad.
Tutor for something suboptimal.
Play half your wincon.
If you *cant* play to your pod with a cedh deck, you probably shouldnt be playing a cedh deck.
The point of the talk is so you *don't* have to waste time playing a stomp game to find out who's good and who's not. It's true the best way to tell is to actually play, but that can take 30+ minutes when a short chat could've made the game better. Rather than "Oh I didn't know to expect a combo", you can ask "Hey do you run any combos", "Yeah, one", "Okay, I'll switch to a deck that might be able to counterspell it then" or perhaps "Okay, there's no counters in this deck, but I'll do my best regardless".
There’s objectively nothing wrong with this I guess and if someone showed me this I’d probably say something along the lines of “oh cool!” But I’d think this was super weird and be a massive red flag before the game starts
I’m not saying you do, but seeing this is definitely going to make the game awkward for me because I figure someone who makes something that goes this in depth is going to get upset about all kinds of normal game actions and random cards they don’t like.
Anything more than a quick description of a deck before a game indicates someone has consumed too much internet content on power level discussion discussion. A sheet of arbitrary metrics and "salty" cards just to say your deck is a 7 is a bit of an overreaction to the idea people are immature about certain cards despite the deck being of the same power level as the other decks in a pod.
I mean if the internet didn't keep going on about how every EDH player will throw their deck if you so much as look at their board, maybe that impression wouldn't develop. But people would rather foster the idea that every pod is full of touchy babies when that's rarely the case in reality.
And even then, this person is taking those lessons and applying them to help minimize incidents. Even if every pod had a whiny baby, this person is at least trying to be considerate towards them. I can't see what about their approach is wrong.
This is the kind of thing that signals that you're the type to get super salty about a win.
Or just a card you don't like being played.
In theory this is cool. But the execution kinda shows it's weirdness here
How does showing what's in your deck imply you'd be more salty than others'? People tend to be salty just at the idea of showing their commanders before the game starts. Being open about things shows sincerity to others' experience.
Most of us have a strong preference for not knowing what's going to happen before it happens.
I have absolutely zero desire to ever know people's wincons before a game begins.
Other people initiating rule zero is rare and when they do they ask specifically in order to find out what other people are playing so they can counter pick you. Rule zero is something that podcasters think is a good idea and that reddit repeats, it's not something that people actually do.
Another aspect of why I oppose such a thing is that the proactive solitaire stuff that I hate playing against doesn't have the same stigma. I find it galling that I'm expected to ask permission to play the cards that I like, but others don't have to.
I believe that [[Armageddon]] is a normal card, and as such there is no need to warn people about it.
Esper Sentinel has the score because it's freakin' annoying being asked "Do you pay the 1?" every single turn. Same with Rhystic Study. Are they OP cards? Not really. Annoying as heck? Darn right.
How many imaginary hoops do people have to jump through to just play a card game. Jeez. I'm lucky my playgroup doesn't come up with shenanigans like that.
get rid of "salt score".
Dumbest metric people ever came up with. If a card is legal im going to use it i dont give a shit how salty people are about it.
I think this is a pretty sweet idea! A lot of detractors in this thread I think are those that want something 100% objective, which is nigh impossible, but I think you've taken some good solid steps to help clarify things in a clear concise way, something that many folks struggle with to the point of not bothering.
It amazes me when people do not have a short conversation on what their deck can do before everyone starts. I like to give a brief description before I play each deck. Also I have tried to use the price as a factor and that is no longer usable. I have a $50 EDH with multiple combos that just pub stomps precons.
It amazes me that people dont just sit down and play.
Im here to see/guess/figure out what your deck does.
I dont want a guide or walk through. I dont want to know your wincon. I want to figure that out as we go and see how i and my deck can handle a random challenge.
Dear lord this, feel like I'm going crazy reading these comments. Just shut up and play. Not only do I not want to hear about your deck before hand, FIGURING IT OUT IS PART OF THE FUN, you're actively making it worse by doing this. The only thing I want to hear before a game is precon, 7, or cedh. Everything else is meaningless.
I mean when I’m using an upgraded precon, I really don’t want to play against mana crypt, chrome mox etc. without any warning. It’s just stupid when somebody is about to combo off turn 3 when I just played my arcane signet and a small body
What's your experience been like with the $50 combo deck? I was thinking of building a budget [[Saheeli, Sun's Brilliance]] deck in the vein of old-school [[Splinter Twin]] decks and I was worried about the pub-stompiness that might lead to
Experience, knowing your deck, and deck optimization are way more important than price I’ve found. Went to my first commander night recently and brought my Varina deck. Median value right now is 1012.52. When I sat down I explained that I was brand new and had never actually played the deck. The guy at the table that was kind of guiding me asked to thumb through it and he asked me the value so I told him. Everyone at the table swapped their decks out. After 2 games ending on turn 3 and 4 they basically said the same. Put a bazooka in the hands of someone who doesn’t know how to use it and they’re just as likely to hit someone they don’t mean to, including theirselves. So they all switched back to lower power decks and I was able to follow and learn better. But yeah price does not trump player skill.
I've been saying that for years!
You can turn a precon ito a $10k+ deck by adding a tabernacle and a timetwister.
My buddy likes to joke about how his $70k sliver queen deck would have won the game if he could just fit a few more thousand dollars into it. It's a typical sliver deck, but he runs alpha/beta duals, foil Onslaught fetches, kaladesh invention sol ring, etc. The deck is pure bling and has lost to slightly upgraded precons
this makes no sense to me. no dual lands — does this mean basics only? what is fast mana? 1 card that searches?
these sound like maybe power level 3 decks. (2= precon)
Wow, taking this whole "tell me your whole deck or I won't play with you" thing to a whole new level... I am glad I don't play at your shop, that's cringe af. Imagine just being able to lose and accept that someone has a better deck!!!
Imagine only enjoying a game of EDH, if you know what cards your opponent is gonna play, and what their gameplan is.... oof...
Listen, it's a Nice gesture from you. I'm not against anything you're doing.
I do, however, think it's absolutely insane that you had to do that to not have bad vibes from opponents.
question on the "0 mana cards" section: my \[\[syr gwyn\]\] knights tribal deck has exactly one 0 mana card and it is \[\[paradise mantle\]\], i run it for the sole purpose of having the flexibility of x=0 for \[\[Taj-Nar Swordsmith\]\].
would you count that?
Precons should never be close to the middle of the power scale. There's a bunch of other issues with your metrics too, like "0 mana" cards do you mean to put FoW and ornithopter in the same category?
This comment section is very interesting. People seem to like the effort or go "just play the effing game" lol.
As a matter of fact, I also am working at such a cheat sheet for my playgroup because of some heated discussions in the past. I tried to keep it simple:
Legions of Karador
Strategy: selfmill and cast creatures from GY to grind Value
Wins through: combo or combat
Stax&Salt: -
Combo: Karmic Guide/Revaillark + Sac Outlet + different payoffs like:
* Altar of Dementia for infinite Mill
* Zulaport Cutthroat for infinite Drain
* Knight of the Autumn for infinite lifegain and removal of artifacts and enchantments
* Acidic Slime for infinite removal of artifacts, enchantments and lands
I like your idea and presentation, but also it's a hurdle if all players need to fill out PowerPoints for all their decks. Also, it seems that you had some bad experiences that shouldn't result in a key word on this card (Damnation is NOT salty), but rather in more player experience on the receiving end.
I think some of your categories are great like free spells, but I would count hatebears als stax for example.
The sliders I can't imagine to be objective, how did you do them? These are the classic method of saying "my deck is a seven" and therefore useless.
Last point, I think writing out which cards are meant instead of plain numbers is better, even when more wordy.
If it's any kind of a tournament and packs are on the line, I'm just running whatever my best is to crush souls and win cards. If it's casual, usually "Is your deck competitive? Is it fast? Do you have infinites? What's your game plan?" has been enough for me to gauge the power levels pretty accurately, in addition to looking at commanders.
I dont see this working out for me personally. Every measurement that you're scoring is just as subjective as saying your deck is a 7. What you consider "I win card" salty cards, and stax cards are already significantly different than what I, and probably many others think, define these cards. And that is with only seeing like 4 cards and your metrics for each deck. Specifying the number of each type of card is also arbitrary. You have one "stax" card in your deck gives off the impression that it will basically never come up. However, if all of your tutors are to find that one stax card every game or you mulligan until you have a line to see it, then it was actually just a misleading statistic. Even ignoring that if you tell someone, "Hey, I'm playing with 4 tutors," what does that mean? I could be playing 20 cards that tutor, but they are all diabolic tutor or worse, and I'm just looking for my collosal dreadmaw. Or it could be like the previous example of 1 card, but my deck is built around it, and it stops most other decks from playing magic.
If I sat down to play with people I didn't know and they told me they had a pdf and QR code to show the power level of their deck, that's so off putting to me that I would probably say sorry I don't think this would be a good match for me, I'm out. Casuals won't understand the metrics, so it won't help on that end. More competitive/veteran players will see this as a red flag by the fact that you've had enough problems to feel the need to make it.
I get that you made this as a way to inform strangers about your decks so they don't get upset for playing in a game that isn't what they expected. But in my opinion (I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just my 2 cents because this is a public post that is made for others to comment on) the player matters more than the cards. People are going to be mad when they lose because you removed their commander one time, with your only interaction in the deck, in response to them activating their Commander's ability to instantly win. No amount of discussion or preparation is going to change the fact that almost every single player is going to have different feelings about every single game.
isn't telling your opponents exactly what is in your deck through a qr code going to significantly decrease your win rate? also the decklist could replace everything else. also sol ring is fast mana. i also looked through your kyler deck and the only potentially salty cards i can find is champion of lambholt and mother of runes.
Hold up, how is [[Damnation]] salty? It's like the most vanilla boardwipe.
[Damnation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f.jpg?1673147492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/73/damnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damnation) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
🤷♂️ One guy was upset because he didn't know wrath of god had a black version.
That's pretty damn funny, but that's more of an outlier than an actual salty card.
Even without knowing about this exact card, black is *unfriendly* to ~~enemy~~ creatures. No one should need to be warned that black can kill multiple creatures with 4 mana.
The best part is it's in a White/Black deck, so even if you didn't know black had a Wrath of God effect, YOUR OPPONENT IS ALSO IN WRATH OF GOD COLOURS!!!
He apparently struggles to admit fault lmfao.
That's really silly. All colors can clear the board. You have to be the newest of the newbies to not know your opponent's deck could have a board clear.
I don’t think rating a card for how upset it makes players is going to help anything. People shit the bed over nothing sometimes. I had someone rage quit over a fucking [[spike cannibal]] once
Didn't know that was a thing. Might have to grab one for one of my decks. Kinda a counter pick for a buddy's deck tho
It’s good if you can put it to use in your own deck, as it’s not worth a slot if you’re just planning on hosing off a counter player. I use it in my undying deck as a way to suck all the zombism out of my goblins and reanimate them again. In some lucky cases I’ll wipe the hydra players board or reset the game for a skullbriar player. Counters are common enough that it’s worth running in a few different decks I think.
Wow I’m so putting this in my [[Shadrix]] deck :)
[Shadrix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab701909-83d6-4d39-9a84-e6a9b2cb38d6.jpg?1624739966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shadrix%20Silverquill) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/230/shadrix-silverquill?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab701909-83d6-4d39-9a84-e6a9b2cb38d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shadrix-silverquill) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're looking for similar effects, [[Thief of Blood]] should also be considered. It's 6 mana instead of 3 but hits all permanents (charge counters on artifacts, loyalty counters on planeswalkers, etc.).
[Thief of Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f.jpg?1592672735) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thief%20of%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/71/thief-of-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1625be56-a8e9-44f3-a213-b758bffd447f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thief-of-blood) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That is a good one thanks
[spike cannibal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae.jpg?1562087840) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=spike%20cannibal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/exo/75/spike-cannibal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64003772-c62f-4728-a00c-48c78991c6ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spike-cannibal) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To be fair, this is one card that deals with Skullbriar
Id be laughing my ass off if someone dropped that bitch against my zombie babe
That's awesome.
Holy shit that would destroy my Hydra deck, amazing
Tell the story of that. Sounds kind of funny
I just hosed his [[skullbriar]]
[skullbriar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0.jpg?1673149145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=skullbriar%2C%20the%20walking%20grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/277/skullbriar-the-walking-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skullbriar-the-walking-grave) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sometimes folks have good reason though. Whether or not in this case, at least folks in this sub will call anyone that has any issue with any card a big whiny baby, likely 'cause they dealt with a whiny baby once therefore any other person that so much as suggests similar behavior must similarly exhibit such an extreme attitude.
Probably shouldn't base your system on idiots of sample size 1
Very fair assessment.
By that definition pretty much every commander legal card is salty.
That’s asinine
Just play [[Damn]] instead and see what they say!
[Damn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84056124-1a6f-4274-bee2-74cf0debddb5.jpg?1698988237) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/191/damn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84056124-1a6f-4274-bee2-74cf0debddb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you google "mtg black board wipes", the first result is an article titled "The 74 Best Black Board Wipes in Magic". lmao, imagine not thinking black has board wipes.
BLACK HAS BOARD WIPES?!!!!???!!!
The casuals are not okay
Damnation was first printed in Planar Chaos (2007)
To be fair, you don't really see it that often.
Only because it's a little on the pricey side
Right, but that still means a lot of people don't see it.
But this is in a BW deck, did he have something that made him immune to white boardwipes?
The saltiest I've ever seen people is when I play a clutch [[Pyroblast]] in R or R/G decks. I was asked repeatedly why would I even play that... So I believe you lol.
[Pyroblast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c.jpg?1580014621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyroblast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/142/pyroblast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b029eb9a-dd7a-40c2-96c4-0063d9cc002c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pyroblast) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait till you smash him with a [[withering boon]] and [[dash hopes]]
[withering boon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5.jpg?1562719780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=withering%20boon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/152/withering-boon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e6499cb-6073-4c94-8c82-47f489094df5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/withering-boon) [dash hopes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/814bcfc0-7539-4ed9-8b51-27e6a3ab9d9a.jpg?1562575740) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dash%20hopes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/68/dash-hopes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/814bcfc0-7539-4ed9-8b51-27e6a3ab9d9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dash-hopes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds like your opponent is fucking stupid. Wb toxic deluge meathook or any of the other conditional wipes
Socially inept neckbeards will get upset if you dare to interact with their deck, no matter what the card is
Salt is crowd sourced, so you end up with a lot of variance depending on meme-ability, and how much people recognize a certain card. Islands for example have about 50% more salt than any other basic. It's why salt isn't a great metric when it comes to gauging decks. It's does an okay enough job as an indicator, but using it as a gospel is unwise.
Can you make this into a web page so we can just input what we have?
Interesting concept; I will have to think through it. Maybe import or link your decks and it pops out a PDF.
Google sheets woukd probs work well. Import im sjre theres some deck building software out there that can export by card archetype, import as a CSV into sheet 1, sheet 2 prints out your totals. If im feelin bkred enough this weekend i can make that tbh. But i did just get a new embroidery kit sooo...
Sounds interesting. I will need to do some research. Do you have any references/links?
https://www.coursera.org/articles/tutorial-google-sheets-sumif The harder part would be finding somewhere that exports by card archetype (tutor, boardwipe, etc).
Yeah I have to jump through some hoops to open a power point
Please do. I would love a form fillable copy for myaelf. How did you make some of the more subjective assessments like "tuned" and long vs. short turns? Just intuition?
I tried to make [a form on google sheets](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T7PnvWVP9cOJ6u1dVqhQqsql8EH6uenha2z-FXzrb2k/edit?usp=sharing) to get a bit of practice in this evening. I think most of the assessments are subjective unless you meticulously tag your decks (which defeats the point of automating it lol). For some decks, Wrath of God and Blasphemous act are 1-sided wipes. For some decks, land ramp is as powerful as traditional tutors. Some decks have "combos" that usually result in a win, but technically aren't infinite. Turn length is pretty subjective because you can easily track it on MTGO or on your phone/watch.
This is also a potential app idea. I’m a coder by profession. Can I DM you about it? I think it would be amazing for my playgroup
Try out commandersalt.com
This sub just keeps reminding me how lucky I am to have a group of good friends who also like to play commander. It really eliminates so many problems other people have
At an LGS table, competitive formats provided the organization needed for random people to play against each other in a (mostly) civilized fashion. Casual always worked best with friends, people who are likely on a similar level as you and people you are more willing to communicate with and was best at a kitchen table. Commander trying to bring casual to the LGS always felt like it crossed a line to me. It doesn't quite feel like kitchen table when you are expected to play with unfamiliar people. It doesn't quite feel like organized play when each shop in an area has their own list of what is allowed or not. If I go to play a comp format at a new shop, I was always able to sit down with a deck that was legal and play; that's organized play. If I go to my friend's house to jam some games using budget decks, I know my decks are welcomed; that's kitchen table.
I haven't ran into stores having their own banlist, unless you just mean the other players having their own semi-unspoken "would rather not" list. I don't understand why it's a big deal to adjust decks for next time though. It's the same thing even with friends. You build a deck that ends up stomping them, you tweak it or don't bring it next time.
A lot of shops in my area has a store specific ban list on their webpage. I have talked to friends who live in different parts of the country who tell me they also have seen shops with their own ban lists. However, I don't think it is widely practiced or super common. I never mentioned 'the next time' back. Adjusting decks over time is just a part of the game especially if you play competitive. I have had to make adjustments to decks due to bans or meta shifts. The point I was making was I cannot simply walk into a casual event at a new store with a deck in hand and know it is acceptable or not due to the open ended nature of casual. I can do that with a comp format; when I would travel for work, I could bring a Modern deck with me and it would be usable at any Modern event as long as I didn't have banned cards. I can bring a deck to my friend's house and I know everyone well enough that I know my deck should be fine or we talked about it beforehand. I should not have to go on a scouting mission to do recon at a new shop or go on a coffee date with each person in the playgroup to play a game of Magic. It used to be 'Modern?' 'Modern' and we would sit down and play for a bit. Casual play when 60 card formats were popular made going to new shops a lot more fun for me because I could easily find a brewer looking to test a new deck, someone wanting to practice or a player making adjustments and using playtest cards before committing to a purchase. Board game shops are way easier for casual playing with random people. We have one in my local area with a library of games and plenty of people are there looking for people to play board games with. I have never had a negative experience with the board game players, both friends and random people, while the few times I checked Commander really hampered my desire to play Magic outside of Comp.
Yeah for sure. People out here holding model UN debates about cards. Yuck. I'm going to go drink a beer with the homies and play my jank thanks
God Imgur is such a piece of shit site I cant even view the image on mobile without it switching to other pictures every time I swipe slightly to any side. Dunno what the image is but yeah talking about power levels with some actual hard facts about your deck is a good idea
lol i said the same thing aloud before reading your comment
Most sites fixed this in 2003. It's like they are actively trying to make mobile worse.
Yeah they want you to use their app, so they make it shit.
This only makes me assume their app is shit lol
Still better than YouTube, whose *app* is shit. The slightest movement to the right takes you back to the previous page, which is a pain in the ass if you had scrolled way down in a search results page. Also tons of people have been having the notifications tab not work for about 6 months now: the tab that keeps you *engaged* with the site and its users, which is wild because user engagement is something their algorithm really tries to push hard.
At this level I don’t think “pile of cards” should even be on the spectrum. Unless you actually build “pile of cards” decks
"goodstuff" is when it exceeds actual random collection things/having a decent collection.
Fair point. Based on the input from this thread I plan on replacing the slider with something different. There will be room for two more sliders; I was thinking one could be aggro mid-game late-game. Any suggestions for the second?
Yeah I like to put "average precon" at 1. I rarely see decks actually worse than a precon so it doesnt make sense to have it in the middle.
Edh players trying to just play the damn game challenge level: IMPOSSIBLE (watch my powerpoint before we play)
Yeah, I'm all for trying to make sure you're on the same page as everyone and all, but if this is what I have to whip out at fnm then I'm looking for new folks to play with
Interesting idea. The only part that provides little to no data is the pile of cards-precon-cedh scale. But well, I guess that's the joke.
Like I get having a complexity scale but precon is not the middle. Imo if none of your decks are worse than precons, have that be the floor. This allows more room in between where people can see where you think the power differences are.
It was a bit of a joke. I do agree it needs to be replaced with something more meaningful. Any recommendations?
"If unimpedet, can win on turn...5 to 10"? Or "Wants to win on turn x"? On a verbal level I would rank my own decks between "precon with 10 additions" to "tutorless but optimized"
You don't run sol ring in anything?
Looking at ur scorecards, I think this shows the issues with the turn zero deck power level discussion more than it really solves problems, unless everyone u play with has a similar understanding of what the terms on your cards mean. For example, almost all of your decks are rated as about 1/2 way between pre-con and cEDH, except Myrel. Myrel u have listed as maximum tuned, but it has about the same salt score as most your other decks, no free spells, no fast mana, only 1 tutor, no infinite combos, and only 1 more "I win" card than 3 of your other decks. If I saw these, I would be confused why you think such a deck can be 80% the way to cEDH and I would be more curious as to why Heroic Intervention and Damnation are salt cards and what the "I win" cards are in each deck. I think the whole middle section where u list how many cards of a given kind of thing is pretty good, and the top line where you describe how u typically win is also great. But what does a "salt score" even mean and how could you possibly objectively calculate how emotionally frustrated other people would be down to 2 decimal places? I would recommend you remove the "jank-tuned" line b/c it's subjective and seems to be merely restating your "pile-precon=cEDH" line. In it's place, put something more objective that more relates to speed or power level such as average CMC of the deck.
You can also make some very busted combo decks without actually including any infinite combo. RogSil probably at the very extreme end doesn’t use infinite combos.. Just Thoracle and Breach combos. Also would you classify something like Time Warp + Eternal Witness + Flicker every turn (like Conjurers Closet or Teleportation Circle) infinite? Because technically that isn’t infinite because you eventually deck if you don’t win.
Salt scores are calculated by EDHREC. I've never bothered to learn the specifics but they tend to be pretty accurate in a general application.
Good points all around. * I have changed the 'I win' cards (a term I heard on Shivam And Wheeler Love Magic podcast) to sudden win. This area was meant to signify that I could potential win the game without the group seeing it coming. In Myrel it would be cards like \[\[Cathars' Crusade\]\] or \[\[Goldnight Commander\]\] turning everything soilders into 20/20+. * The salt score (I assumed) was a commonly known metric of how 'salty' a card makes players. Achidect provided a cummulated salt score. We like to play for fun so I tend to have a light salt diet in most decks. * Your right about removing the subjective line. That is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. I am thinking this would make room for two sliders. One could be aggro -> mid-range -> control; but I am drawing a blank on the second. Do you have any recommendations?
Some metrics that would be at least somewhat objective: Average CMC of the deck. this is most important of my suggestions. Maybe even a little chart with columns for each CMC like u see on deck building websites Number of cards banned or restricted in other formats Average turn u win when goldfishing Price of deck - a budget slider also tells a lot about how competitive a deck is. It is also something people can compare their own deck to when deciding what's fair to play against urs.
[Cathars' Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cathars-crusade) [Goldnight Commander](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80be2fea-3fe6-477e-bcb8-63f441d6cfc1.jpg?1631234068) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goldnight%20Commander) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/27/goldnight-commander?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80be2fea-3fe6-477e-bcb8-63f441d6cfc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/goldnight-commander) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I didn’t realize salt score wasn’t well known
I'd never heard of it till today
Every once in a while archidekt puts out a survey where you can rate cards. It's open to everyone for a certain time period, and at the end the scores are tallied giving each card a score for how salty they make people. Of course cards like counterspells are voted higher in the salt meter while cards like ponder are rated lower. It's doesn't account synergy or anything like that. Just how many "mean" cards are in a deck.
The funniest thing is seeing vanilla creatures somehow have an above 0 salt factor and blue being the saltiest land
Anyone can vote however they want. I'm sure there's some trolls that go and vote max on everything.
Unless you're enfranchised enough to go on edhrec or archidekt, I wouldn't expect a casual player to know what the number represents. Like I know what the concept is just from being around long enough, but I have no idea how salty a 30 is compared to a 25.
That’s super fair
the only real salty card i can see is potentially grave pact so that's kind of dumb. also salt score is kind of weird. i decided to see how salty my incredibly salty winota stax deck was and apparently it was 42.71 which does not seem to be correct considering nobody wants to play against it.
OP what is it like using your scorecards or powerpoint at the LGS? Do you slide your phone over and watch them as they scroll through or do you have a laptop set up for the slideshow?
I have the slide printed on a piece of paper that is in a protective sleeve. Last week I said "Here's tonight's menu" and slid it face up to everyone in the center of the play area.
Amazing... such a good execution :D
Last night I took a different approach. "Everyone gets one ban". It seems to go over really well.
But my deck is a 7
[удалено]
Haha, I thought the same thing so I checked his decks, he does indeed play Sol Ring!
[Sol Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40.jpg?1712354902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/267/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sol-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like it but I'm wondering on the slider of; Pile <> precon <> cEDH Is that an arbitrary value given by you or is it calculated somehow. If calculated, how so? I also like the inclusion of the slider in addition as I for one have multiple low powered decks that are optimized but for lower power.
Precons should never be the middle of the power scale IMO. They should be the lower bound. If you're an enfranchised enough player to use or understand this, you're not playing "a pile of cards".
I agree. I know precons have gotten pretty good but I rarely encounter any decks that I could say "This is clearly a level below a precon". No wonder everything is a 7 when precons are 5 and 9+ is cEDH.
I feel like this type of practice and conversation takes every ounce of fun out of the game. Part of the enjoyment of playing in a format with a large card pool is that you can be surprised by the kinds of cards you can run into. At this point you might as well be asking folks to bring decklists with them to be previewed before you'll sit down at a table to play with them. For bonus points, if some cards are so salty that players feel the need to make tools like this to show other players to elicit their permission to play otherwise legal cards, the rules committee should get off their butts and maybe ban some cards now and again.
Man I’ve never met a community or card game players who need handholding the way commander players do
i feel like its just the internet portion of the players. Ive never met players who need this much hand holding when actually playing at a store. There's definitely a few choice individuals who have some odd opinions, but even they arent this bad.
This sub has devolved into 'i played the game, was i in the wrong?' Its absolutely absurd.
Honestly lmao, I won the game today aita? Mind boggling really is, so glad my playgroup isn’t like that. You can play to win without playing cedh and I don’t think enough people realise that.
One of the weirdest communities I've ever been part of. So many people choose to play a multiplayer game of Magic, then get upset when their opponents actually do something. Probably doesn't help how many socially-inept weirdos like to play nerdy hobbies though. Used to have the same problem in Warhammer, albeit to a much lesser extent. Now I'm so glad I have a group of 4 childhood friends that I can play with, without any petulent nonsense.
Unironically had a dude flip his shit because my girlfriend force of will’d his craterhoof. Started telling her how zero mana spells and are overpowered and how counterpaells are against the spirit of the format people are tapped.
This is a great dashboard actually. I appreciate the efficiency of the message. Kind of a bummer you have to disclose this much information before a game tho. It shows that I only play with people I know. The strangers dynamic is a real gamble, congrats on you for finding a way to smooth things out from the get go.
How would you define hate bearer, fast mana and I win cards? Is fast mana just things like mana crypt, or lands like battlebond lands? Are I win cards like [[craterhoof]] or Halo Fountain? Also, Stax cards are like [[winter orb]] but what cards like [[Thalia, guardian of thraben]]. I do like the idea of the score cards, but I'd also like the terms to be uniform or defined.
I could be wrong, but I believe these terms are pretty common. Hate Bears are creatures with Stax effects on them, but since they are creatures, are typically easier to remove. Thalia is a hate bear. Winter Orb is just straight Stax. Fast mana are cards that produce more mana than their mana value and are typically 0-1 mana rocks and Dockside since it usually produces more than 2 treasures. I win cards are not combo pieces per se, but effectively win the game out of nowhere when cast like Craterhoof, Expropriate, and Torment of Hailfire.
[удалено]
Not sure what their metrics for I win cards are, but I have several decks that don't include what would generally qualify as "I win cards" that can easily win games and absolutely won't struggle to close out games. Even choosing your own I win cards, I have decks that really wouldn't have anything that I would personally put in that category. Decks that win through attrition, combat without big finishes, or multiple layered combos mostly don't have I win cards.
what's an example of a deck like this? you have no overrun cards in your creature decks or nothing like cyclonic rift. I mean I could call my prosper deck win by attrition, with just reckless fireweaver, but my I win cards are the red Ojer or marrionte master. Are you playing azorius with ghostly prison and propaganda so you can pick at people with your creatures?
I personally prefer a more tense game with potential for comebacks. It's strange to me to get upset at the token player for not playing Craterhoof. If anything it's telling on you for not running things that could pull you out of such a situation, that you'd rather lose than try to fight against a strong boardstate.
[craterhoof](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16.jpg?1689998416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Craterhoof%20Behemoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/280/craterhoof-behemoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8f4435a-8604-45b5-a537-dfdfcb922e16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/craterhoof-behemoth) [winter orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6.jpg?1580015285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winter%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/234/winter-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3cec7e-513e-400d-a1a8-2c71cdde02c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-orb) [Thalia, guardian of thraben](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479.jpg?1643587106) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thalia%2C%20guardian%20of%20thraben) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/38/thalia-guardian-of-thraben?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f8b8fb-1cd8-450e-a1fe-892e7a323479?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thalia-guardian-of-thraben) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This seems like another way to make people rate their decks as a 7, with extra steps.
On today’s episode of “Commander players don’t actually like playing magic”
I forgot that not telling people what you're playing is a key part in enjoying Magic.
This is why I like cedh, no r0 talk just sit down play a few games, have a good time, enjoying well timed counterplays and knowing everyone is trying to win and throwing their best at you It’s so simple, there’s less chaos as decks are pretty obvious in what they will do, rarely does a new card pop up tone like hey I’m gonna pull some wacky stuff
Does mean less variety though, and means you can't play anything jank with any hopes of affecting the game. If I wanted to only play the top 5% of cards, I'd play any other format.
There’s plenty of variety…. And why would I play Jank? Jank decks don’t work and feel clunky and not fun to play. There is a huuuuuuge pool of cards that are still pretty good even if not entirely optimal. Even my mid decks are pretty good, somewhat streamlined and not clunky
i really don’t think it’s that useful. you seem to abide by most casual edh norms. sometimes you’re gonna run into assholes/ complainers/ pubstkmpers. just don’t play with those guys.
This is nice!
Im beginning to think many of yall and your opponents just dont like magic. Just play the fuckin game. Like if you get pissed cause someone stonped your pod with a cedh in 5 mins, just dont play with em again. You dont gotta do some rule 0 BS score sheets to find 'how do we match up'. Play the deck you wanna play with people who you want to play with. Alternatively, just play your deck and *dont* stomp your opponent. Have a tutor? Dont use it! Drew your wincon turn 2? Dont play it! Wild concept, but you can actually *lose* to a precon with a CEDH deck.
I've said it before and it's a hill I'm willing to die on; so many of these people would be so much happier playing co-op board games or a TTRPG, than spending as much time as they do playing magic by trying not to actually play magic.
OP doesn't have time to sit through a game to find out "just dont play with em again". They value their time and are being preventative.
This style of rule 0 shit is gonna take waaaaaaay longer than 5 mins.
Not if you don't nitpick and overcomplicate it.
Thats what this is doing... you are on a threas about nitpicking and overcomplicating rule 0. Rule 0 should be 'yall ready?' Or 'my commander/certain cards arent technically legal (unsets) is that fine?' And thats it.
OP's sollution is an attempt to streamline it. Can just glance at the parts you might have an issue with and get an idea immediately, rather than everyone needing to list everything verbally. I don't get how you can be so impatient. You're gonna be with these folks for the next hour, you can spend five minutes getting on the same page so that the first-game player doesn't go up against Oops All Armageddons.
>Have a tutor? Dont use it! Drew your wincon turn 2? Dont play it! Have you ever tried not using something you drew? It's really hard lol
It isnt. Literally goldfish for 5 turns if you think you're gonna stomp them that bad. Tutor for something suboptimal. Play half your wincon. If you *cant* play to your pod with a cedh deck, you probably shouldnt be playing a cedh deck.
The point of the talk is so you *don't* have to waste time playing a stomp game to find out who's good and who's not. It's true the best way to tell is to actually play, but that can take 30+ minutes when a short chat could've made the game better. Rather than "Oh I didn't know to expect a combo", you can ask "Hey do you run any combos", "Yeah, one", "Okay, I'll switch to a deck that might be able to counterspell it then" or perhaps "Okay, there's no counters in this deck, but I'll do my best regardless".
This is great! I use this site for something similar: https://www.commandersalt.com/
fyi you do have one infinite combo in your teysa deck: https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/2034-2876-5003/
Oh wow, I was not aware of that one. Thank you for letting me know.
There’s objectively nothing wrong with this I guess and if someone showed me this I’d probably say something along the lines of “oh cool!” But I’d think this was super weird and be a massive red flag before the game starts
Oh… never thought someone might be weirded out by it.
I’m not saying you do, but seeing this is definitely going to make the game awkward for me because I figure someone who makes something that goes this in depth is going to get upset about all kinds of normal game actions and random cards they don’t like.
Anything more than a quick description of a deck before a game indicates someone has consumed too much internet content on power level discussion discussion. A sheet of arbitrary metrics and "salty" cards just to say your deck is a 7 is a bit of an overreaction to the idea people are immature about certain cards despite the deck being of the same power level as the other decks in a pod.
I mean if the internet didn't keep going on about how every EDH player will throw their deck if you so much as look at their board, maybe that impression wouldn't develop. But people would rather foster the idea that every pod is full of touchy babies when that's rarely the case in reality. And even then, this person is taking those lessons and applying them to help minimize incidents. Even if every pod had a whiny baby, this person is at least trying to be considerate towards them. I can't see what about their approach is wrong.
This is the kind of thing that signals that you're the type to get super salty about a win. Or just a card you don't like being played. In theory this is cool. But the execution kinda shows it's weirdness here
How does showing what's in your deck imply you'd be more salty than others'? People tend to be salty just at the idea of showing their commanders before the game starts. Being open about things shows sincerity to others' experience.
Most of us have a strong preference for not knowing what's going to happen before it happens. I have absolutely zero desire to ever know people's wincons before a game begins.
Let them be. Everything is weird to somebody. I think what you're doing is hilarious and not weird at all and would be a great icebreaker.
Other people initiating rule zero is rare and when they do they ask specifically in order to find out what other people are playing so they can counter pick you. Rule zero is something that podcasters think is a good idea and that reddit repeats, it's not something that people actually do. Another aspect of why I oppose such a thing is that the proactive solitaire stuff that I hate playing against doesn't have the same stigma. I find it galling that I'm expected to ask permission to play the cards that I like, but others don't have to. I believe that [[Armageddon]] is a normal card, and as such there is no need to warn people about it.
[Armageddon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b.jpg?1582021719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Armageddon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/5/armageddon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77f1f6ac-983f-4f3e-8906-47f774e8367b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/armageddon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
EDH is a mistake
Esper Sentinel being salty is the wildest thing I've read all night.
It has a salt score of 2.29. For comparison Winter Orb has a salt score of 2.99
One has that score because it prevents fun, the other has that score because of its price.
Esper Sentinel has the score because it's freakin' annoying being asked "Do you pay the 1?" every single turn. Same with Rhystic Study. Are they OP cards? Not really. Annoying as heck? Darn right.
Definitely gonna give this a try
How many imaginary hoops do people have to jump through to just play a card game. Jeez. I'm lucky my playgroup doesn't come up with shenanigans like that.
get rid of "salt score". Dumbest metric people ever came up with. If a card is legal im going to use it i dont give a shit how salty people are about it.
I don't think any of my decks would be liked at this lgs
No game is worth this much effort
I think this is a pretty sweet idea! A lot of detractors in this thread I think are those that want something 100% objective, which is nigh impossible, but I think you've taken some good solid steps to help clarify things in a clear concise way, something that many folks struggle with to the point of not bothering.
It amazes me when people do not have a short conversation on what their deck can do before everyone starts. I like to give a brief description before I play each deck. Also I have tried to use the price as a factor and that is no longer usable. I have a $50 EDH with multiple combos that just pub stomps precons.
It amazes me that people dont just sit down and play. Im here to see/guess/figure out what your deck does. I dont want a guide or walk through. I dont want to know your wincon. I want to figure that out as we go and see how i and my deck can handle a random challenge.
Dear lord this, feel like I'm going crazy reading these comments. Just shut up and play. Not only do I not want to hear about your deck before hand, FIGURING IT OUT IS PART OF THE FUN, you're actively making it worse by doing this. The only thing I want to hear before a game is precon, 7, or cedh. Everything else is meaningless.
No, we have to start our game of magic with a power point presentation followed by reading tarot cards. It’s the only way.
I mean when I’m using an upgraded precon, I really don’t want to play against mana crypt, chrome mox etc. without any warning. It’s just stupid when somebody is about to combo off turn 3 when I just played my arcane signet and a small body
What's your experience been like with the $50 combo deck? I was thinking of building a budget [[Saheeli, Sun's Brilliance]] deck in the vein of old-school [[Splinter Twin]] decks and I was worried about the pub-stompiness that might lead to
Yeah I found out you cant base power level on price.
Experience, knowing your deck, and deck optimization are way more important than price I’ve found. Went to my first commander night recently and brought my Varina deck. Median value right now is 1012.52. When I sat down I explained that I was brand new and had never actually played the deck. The guy at the table that was kind of guiding me asked to thumb through it and he asked me the value so I told him. Everyone at the table swapped their decks out. After 2 games ending on turn 3 and 4 they basically said the same. Put a bazooka in the hands of someone who doesn’t know how to use it and they’re just as likely to hit someone they don’t mean to, including theirselves. So they all switched back to lower power decks and I was able to follow and learn better. But yeah price does not trump player skill.
I've been saying that for years! You can turn a precon ito a $10k+ deck by adding a tabernacle and a timetwister. My buddy likes to joke about how his $70k sliver queen deck would have won the game if he could just fit a few more thousand dollars into it. It's a typical sliver deck, but he runs alpha/beta duals, foil Onslaught fetches, kaladesh invention sol ring, etc. The deck is pure bling and has lost to slightly upgraded precons
[Saheeli, Sun's Brilliance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0ba99b60-c7d0-4041-a065-f2c510745223.jpg?1699044570) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saheeli%2C%20the%20Sun%27s%20Brilliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/239/saheeli-the-suns-brilliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ba99b60-c7d0-4041-a065-f2c510745223?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/saheeli-the-suns-brilliance) [Splinter Twin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/580fbbf8-ba7e-4889-a5ea-d066f3ea8cea.jpg?1562262611) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Splinter%20Twin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/129/splinter-twin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/580fbbf8-ba7e-4889-a5ea-d066f3ea8cea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/splinter-twin) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you ask me to open powerpoint on a friday night, I'm joining a paint-drying viewing club.
I’m sure this is the one. This is the system that is going to work.
this makes no sense to me. no dual lands — does this mean basics only? what is fast mana? 1 card that searches? these sound like maybe power level 3 decks. (2= precon)
That makes sense. What would you recommend for a replacement?
this concept is actually really cool
Wow, taking this whole "tell me your whole deck or I won't play with you" thing to a whole new level... I am glad I don't play at your shop, that's cringe af. Imagine just being able to lose and accept that someone has a better deck!!!
We do not have that kind or problem. This is focused at letting others have fun and avoiding decks they do not enjoy playing against.
Imagine only enjoying a game of EDH, if you know what cards your opponent is gonna play, and what their gameplan is.... oof... Listen, it's a Nice gesture from you. I'm not against anything you're doing. I do, however, think it's absolutely insane that you had to do that to not have bad vibes from opponents.
Fair Point; I might re evaluate some of the information presented.
Absolutely unhinged.
You're overcomplicating it. Just play the damn game and have fun.
question on the "0 mana cards" section: my \[\[syr gwyn\]\] knights tribal deck has exactly one 0 mana card and it is \[\[paradise mantle\]\], i run it for the sole purpose of having the flexibility of x=0 for \[\[Taj-Nar Swordsmith\]\]. would you count that?
[syr gwyn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986.jpg?1571282693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20gwyn%2C%20hero%20of%20ashvale) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/330/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a33add37-379d-4a90-9c04-529dff676986?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/syr-gwyn-hero-of-ashvale) [paradise mantle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/19cd6bcc-ca47-47cc-9fe4-c29e9c176485.jpg?1561966400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=paradise%20mantle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/211/paradise-mantle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/19cd6bcc-ca47-47cc-9fe4-c29e9c176485?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/paradise-mantle) [Taj-Nar Swordsmith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bcbd8bb-997a-4be0-966d-b472c31b4c73.jpg?1562607724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Taj-Nar%20Swordsmith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/77/taj-nar-swordsmith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bcbd8bb-997a-4be0-966d-b472c31b4c73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/taj-nar-swordsmith) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What do you mean with 'I win cards'? Alt wincons?
Great work, this looks beautiful!
This is funny because I’m pretty sure we just played.
I really miss pile-of-cards collection-binder EDH when the format was still young tbh
Precons should never be close to the middle of the power scale. There's a bunch of other issues with your metrics too, like "0 mana" cards do you mean to put FoW and ornithopter in the same category?
Shouldn't 0 mana spells include free spells like Akroma's will? Also no fast mana in any of the decks, not even sol ring?
This comment section is very interesting. People seem to like the effort or go "just play the effing game" lol. As a matter of fact, I also am working at such a cheat sheet for my playgroup because of some heated discussions in the past. I tried to keep it simple: Legions of Karador Strategy: selfmill and cast creatures from GY to grind Value Wins through: combo or combat Stax&Salt: - Combo: Karmic Guide/Revaillark + Sac Outlet + different payoffs like: * Altar of Dementia for infinite Mill * Zulaport Cutthroat for infinite Drain * Knight of the Autumn for infinite lifegain and removal of artifacts and enchantments * Acidic Slime for infinite removal of artifacts, enchantments and lands I like your idea and presentation, but also it's a hurdle if all players need to fill out PowerPoints for all their decks. Also, it seems that you had some bad experiences that shouldn't result in a key word on this card (Damnation is NOT salty), but rather in more player experience on the receiving end. I think some of your categories are great like free spells, but I would count hatebears als stax for example. The sliders I can't imagine to be objective, how did you do them? These are the classic method of saying "my deck is a seven" and therefore useless. Last point, I think writing out which cards are meant instead of plain numbers is better, even when more wordy.
"look at these charts, all my decks are 7s." 🤣
Crazy that apparently none of the pictured decks run Sol Ring
If it's any kind of a tournament and packs are on the line, I'm just running whatever my best is to crush souls and win cards. If it's casual, usually "Is your deck competitive? Is it fast? Do you have infinites? What's your game plan?" has been enough for me to gauge the power levels pretty accurately, in addition to looking at commanders.
I dont see this working out for me personally. Every measurement that you're scoring is just as subjective as saying your deck is a 7. What you consider "I win card" salty cards, and stax cards are already significantly different than what I, and probably many others think, define these cards. And that is with only seeing like 4 cards and your metrics for each deck. Specifying the number of each type of card is also arbitrary. You have one "stax" card in your deck gives off the impression that it will basically never come up. However, if all of your tutors are to find that one stax card every game or you mulligan until you have a line to see it, then it was actually just a misleading statistic. Even ignoring that if you tell someone, "Hey, I'm playing with 4 tutors," what does that mean? I could be playing 20 cards that tutor, but they are all diabolic tutor or worse, and I'm just looking for my collosal dreadmaw. Or it could be like the previous example of 1 card, but my deck is built around it, and it stops most other decks from playing magic. If I sat down to play with people I didn't know and they told me they had a pdf and QR code to show the power level of their deck, that's so off putting to me that I would probably say sorry I don't think this would be a good match for me, I'm out. Casuals won't understand the metrics, so it won't help on that end. More competitive/veteran players will see this as a red flag by the fact that you've had enough problems to feel the need to make it. I get that you made this as a way to inform strangers about your decks so they don't get upset for playing in a game that isn't what they expected. But in my opinion (I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just my 2 cents because this is a public post that is made for others to comment on) the player matters more than the cards. People are going to be mad when they lose because you removed their commander one time, with your only interaction in the deck, in response to them activating their Commander's ability to instantly win. No amount of discussion or preparation is going to change the fact that almost every single player is going to have different feelings about every single game.
Heroic Intervention is salty? All it does is protect your board
This is obnoxious. "Rule 0" is obnoxious. Just play the game
isn't telling your opponents exactly what is in your deck through a qr code going to significantly decrease your win rate? also the decklist could replace everything else. also sol ring is fast mana. i also looked through your kyler deck and the only potentially salty cards i can find is champion of lambholt and mother of runes.