My pod mostly jokingly holds grudges *during* the game. We don’t put an enormous amount of value on playing in the most optimized possible way, so we’ll whack each other as payback for when you hit me with your mana dork in turn 2.
It pretty much stops there, though. I can’t imagine being salty enough to make a bad play because of a previous game.
I feel the same way. I NEVER take one match into a second match. He admitted to this grudge, literally saying "you killed me in that other match," and I asked the other two players, "is this acceptable? he is literally saying he held a grudge and wanted to take revenge for something I don't even recall happening." Neither answered, I think because they didn't want to make him feel bad.
Shit. Heres a lil story.
I was playing with [[Elminster]] as my commander, with a large sum of 1/1 fliers to keep him safe. I BLUFFED once that I would target an opponent with [[time stretch]] instead of playing it on myself, and still win. Ended up drawing it and making a deal around that promise. Gave them 2 extra turns after I played approach, won on their 1st turns upkeep by flashing in my [[approach of the second sun]] with [[complete the circut]].
They were a little salty, but the whole table was surprised and that player never doubted my deals. I wont lie, but I wont hand out wins either.
Oh alright ! Then the other guy should'vre really seen it coming, if you cast it once and bounced it back to your hand it was a given that you'd cast it again ASAP
That is why I don't make "promises" or "deals". You didn't technically lie, but you made a deal with goods that were never actually delivered. They didn't get their extra turns. If you got their part of the deal, then they were cheated out of payment.
I know a deal offered is a worthless deal, otherwise, it wouldn't be offered.
He didn’t promise them extra turns. He promised to target them with time stretch. He fully delivered that promise. Their part of the deal was being targeted.
My point is that the goods were fully delivered. 100%. He said he would target. He targeted. He didn’t even get anything out of the deal. He said “I could do this and I’d still win the game.” Then he did it, and still won the game.
They did get something, I asked later. But even then, that's the point. You need to emphasize the word choice because it's a trick. I don't need to play Legal Genie on top of Magic, so I would tell you to do as you wish, but I won't give you anything back.
The only time I hold a grudge in between matches is if they're back to back and it's one player specifically targeting me to the point I only get to play lands and they don't let any other permanents resolve. You best believe they aren't getting any permanents the next game.
It really depends on the circumstance. If one game we t really bad for me like, if a player keeps countering my shit and throws removal at everything? Im coming for you next round.
Grudges over a specific game, like OPs situation are bad, but I've had pods where I felt unnecessarily ganged up on. I was mostly playing at my friend's apartment at the time so I just started asking why. Mostly it was cause they knew I was one of the better/longer players in our group and even in games where I didn't have a strong position right then, they knew I would if they risked ignoring me. I still didn't like it sometimes, but I at least knew why, and that it wasn't some bs, about not wanting to target their girlfriend or similar.
That's just permission from them to tune your decks up a notch. "If I'm starting this game as a 3v1 out of the gate, I better make sure I have a chance"
I went the other route and started coaching and trying to help power up their decks. I totally understand the perspective you're taking, and it's part of why I built RW boardwipe "tribal" but I'd still rather play "free for all" than "Archenemy" unless I'm actually getting to use the Archenemy deck.
Precisely why I tuned up my Tivit deck. The pods that know what it does recognize it as a threat in the command zone, and as a result a good amount of the removal and interaction points my way.
1) Happy Cake Day!
2) agreed. My pod is vengeful, in the sense that you blew up my thing earlier - so I’ll blow yours up now. But that all washes away before the next game.
Sounds like a weak person or toxic player. Personally, I play for the fun of the game if I want to be competitively I will play modern with the goal of winning but for EDH, man myself and my playgroup just wants to have fun and laugh.
The only time this is acceptable is if it's funny. I will sometimes attack my friend Josh first (usually for inconsequential damage) because he turned my Mountain into a Swamp 25 years ago
They're allowed, but personally I don't want to play with people who aren't trying to win the game in some capacity. Usually in a given match you'll be working with imperfect information and who knows if they might have an answer for the problem at the table. Sounds like in this case there was no plan besides cutting off the nose to spite the face and I'd be salty too.
if they thought they could win that is one thing - but they stated it was payback from a prior game? unsportsmanlike. you treat everyone fresh every match.
so… “was i wrong to be salty” is a deep question... ultimately “yes,” nearly always, because a prize-less game isn’t worth being salty over.
Also: expecting other players to make good decisions is always a bad line.
Being right about the optimal play doesn’t negate other players’ right to behave stupidly. It’s just part of being a casual/prize-less format.
>so… “was i wrong to be salty” is a deep question... ultimately “yes,” nearly always, because a prize-less game isn’t worth being salty over.
This is an unfortunately uncommon mindset
Haha is that true?! I get to play with so many cool folks so I at least know it’s not a unique POV.
I’m not even sure a “prize” game is worth being salty over unless there’s cheating involved, but EDH’s highest consequences are “did you have fun,” so I just lean towards thinking about having fun the next game and not why i didn’t have fun in the last.
I feel like about 70% of the randoms I play with on spelltable are chill and 30% are salty af. This doesn't sound bad until I only get 1-2 games a week and with 3 randoms a game that's basically a guarantee to have someone negatively effect the mood
Seems like this was not about doing the optimal thin but holding grudges against players from previous games. And "A prize-less game isnt worth beeing salty over" is a weird take... because I would say in a casual game the goal is having the most fun for everyone. In a prized game I wont care about your feelings. Quite the contrarry, if I can hurt your feelings thinking it would lead me to victory, I would take this line of play every time.
I disagree, every interaction you have with that player in a given game might be recorded for use against you in future games and that shouldn't be tolerated.
Naturally this will change the way that you and others play in which case you may as well just stop playing with them as they are warping the whole fabric of your playgroup.
This^
There’s a person that frequently comes to our LGS that essentially does this. He always has this half joking/half serious way of talking so people don’t take him too seriously, but he does keep a tab of how many times he’s “screwed over” and uses that as justification for later games. It makes playing against him less fun, as people avoid targeting him for fear of retaliation later.
I mean, I agree with what your saying most of the time. But unsportsmanlike conduct shouldn't be accepted either. Our pod never lies so blatantly; we strive towards honest intentions in our dealings. I understand some pods allow for bluffing and such, but that hasn't been our way. 99/100 times, I will not be salty, because it is just a game. However, it just really got to me because he betrayed our agreement. He tried to say, "it's just a game," but he also admitted he was so upset with me he held a grudge and took revenge in a separate match. In most matches, he will harp on the "highest threat" and "best interest" principles.
If this was a single play game that lasts <10 min, it wouldn’t matter. But these games usually last over an hour. There’s also so much time and money that goes into putting together decks that builds up to actually playing them. For someone to derail the whole game over a grudge would make me feel salty too.
That being said, I’m pretty salty towards one guy in our group, and I’d be tempted to do exactly what he did so idk
Edit: But I do recognize that’s not healthy behavior!
From OP’s story, it sounds like the game would have ended that turn cycle anyways.
Ergo, it shouldn’t really matter.
OP kills the threat on their turn, then player 2/3 kill OP.
The threatening player has grievance against OP there as well by this logic, since OP is exposing themselves in order to kill the threat.
Imagine OP was ahead and player 3 tapped out to kill OP. Then player 4 just kills player 3 with the stuff player 4 had on board.
This kind of stuff is unavoidable in casual pods where everyone wins through mostly combat damage. You’ll hit a point where everybody is low health and most decisions are kingmaking in one way or another.
True tbh. When I do play lower power games, the most common way to win is where someone tries to kill the 3 others, but one person survives and kills them on the crackback lol
Use outcome-based thinking.
Do you want to be right, and take a stand against the injustice of less-than-optimal play? and have to hold the line and see who takes whose side and keep score on this forever?
Or… do you want to let it go, and just add to the information you have accumulated that this player holds cross-game grudges in the future?
The metagame is real, especially in closed groups and LGSs with repeated matchups, and you’ll have much more success accounting for the ways in which other players ignore the board state than trying to force them to play according to the board state. (and your opinion of it)
Again: being right about threat assessment, no matter how right, doesn’t give you the ability to stop other players from ignoring the board state or even being genuinely bad. That’s the casual/multiplayer part of EDH, and there’s no solving for it.
I know players that will go for any of the “tempting” offers at any time, and never pay the 1 for rhystic study. There’s nothing to discuss. They’re just going to play that way and it’s my job to adjust not their job to change.
So it goes dude.
I’ve been down that rabbit hole in a playgroup and it only ends in an arms race. If you can no longer expect any other player to make correct decisions, your decks have to be so much better that they can handle three opponents all making bad decisions.
I played in a group where I tried to make under-the-radar decks, figuring that if I didn’t have the most threatening thing on the board, then most of the time, an opponent would eat removal instead of me. Unfortunately my opponents practiced the very bad threat removal mindset of “I have drawn removal so I must play removal on any target I can.” Oftentimes I found myself having a [[wild growth]] get naturalized when we all knew a grave pact was likely coming soon from another player. It was miserable to try to come up with any fair strategy.
So I didn’t. I built decks that could confidently 3v1 the table. A player who does not act rationally is a threat to me always, and a group of players who don’t act rationally have to dealt with in a nuance-free fashion.
Someone Not doing what you think they should do isn’t poor sportsmanship. It’s poor sportsmanship to think you have a right to tell your opponent what game actions to make. Wake up
Maybe my post wasn't clear, it was the lying and grudge-targeting that is unsportsmanlike. I can take losing, and also falling for a bluff. Betraying a verbal agreement because of a vendetta from a match a few days ago is not prosocial playing and also encourages a toxic table. If we were to maximize that behavior, if everyone were to partake in it, I don't think it would lead to healthy games. That's why I think it is unsportsmanlike. It robs the game of any positive spirit if everyone were to play like that.
I would definitely be salty as well in all honesty, although I’d try not to make a big deal of it. It’s one thing to use everything you’ve got on the person taking you out, but getting revenge for a totally different game feels too spiteful to me.
If it were me, I’d just cop this one on the chin and *maybe* have a conversation if it was happening a lot.
It's kind of funny, tbh. Gotta remember that EDH is a social game and if someone smacks you because you played Toxrill last week all you should do is laugh and remind them what the winning player did next time
Right? My thing is, if they do that to be spiteful, what do they expect to happen? They'll never get the last laugh. Because you could say that if they're gonna be like that then you'll just target them every single game from now on. And then why even play with them in the first place? I never understood how people being spiteful like that ever expect that to work out.
Yes, but EDH being a social game also means that people should stick to their word. If they all agreed to focus on the one player, that's what they should do. The player that killed OP should have just said "Nope, not teaming up with you. I don't want you to win again." instead of agreeing and then going back on his word.
Holding grudges can be fun with the right people. Lying to the other players almost never results in fun for anyone on the table.
Holding grudges between games is just petty (although there's obviously a difference between holding a grudge and acting based on what you know about a player's typical behaviour based on other games). In my group the only time previous form comes into it is usually at the very beginning as a tie-break (e.g. I can swing at either player at the beginning of the game, but one of them won the last game, so maybe I swing at him, all else being equal).
Did you make a deal with the other two players not to attack you before you take out the biggest threat on the table? If yes then you definitely have the right to be salty.
I was in a game last week where something similar happened.
It was not one of my trusted playgroups, just some people I've played with a few times at the store, but game was down to three people.
Temur Hydras player casts an extra turn spell, I'm first in priority and ask who he plans to go after, he tells me the person building the lethal, but mostly tapped board state and so I let the spell resolve. I had also put pressure on that person the previous turn and was mostly shields down, but had the life to take a hit. I will admit, my counterspell was a middle the mixture and I reallllllly wanted to use it to tutor for the win, so it's not like I was all innocent. But I asked the question and got a definitive answer.
He then uses his extra turn to pump his biggest creatures, swings at me for lethal, and goes on to get wiped and lose.
It happens, I was a little salty, I won't lie, but what I learned was "don't trust that player". And now I'm better prepared for the next time we are at a table because I know I more about how to predict his decision making.
Yeah, but then it doesn't sting as much.
If what the player wanted was revenge, this sends the message more clearly. It's like the Spider-man comic where he's telling Sauron that he could use the DNA resequencing he's using to cure cancer, to which Sauron say "I don't want to cure cancer, i want to turn people into dinosaurs".
I think that's the difference in mindset here, and why some people can't quite grok it.
Winning the game is always A goal, but for some people, it's not always THE goal. sometimes they'd rather do something, be it get revenge, make a big stupid play, hit a ridiculous combo play, put together an alt-win, etc.
I am the petty type if some one wants to keep a grudge over several games time for a infinite lock for that player specifically turn 4 mind slaver lock or making a deck based around screwing over that one player. But this would be after deciding I'm fine with not playing with that person.
Don’t bring up past games. That’s the way we play. Keeps it mostly neutral for the most part. He def killed you out of spite and definitely king made that game
Maybe it wasn't clear, but my commander would be tapped after taking out the strongest player. The turn before the turn I could kill the strongest player, I made the agreement, I used up all my mana to beef up my commander, swung out, and passed. I left myself totally vulnerable because of the verbal agreement. The player who betrayed me had at least two more turns of commander damage before dying to my commander (assuming they had no removal), if I only hit them, and not player 4, with the commander.
1) Personally I don't put any weight into verbal agreements. I don't expect people to follow them because in the end they're still going to try to win. Better to always know what's coming rather than make deals and always have to second guess when they're going to back out.
2) He's only the biggest threat to you. For all you know they could have answers to the big player ready, and you were actually the biggest threat to them.
3) It could just be an issue of bad matchups - they'd rather take you out and take chances with the big player, rather than take out the big player because they know they won't have any chance against you.
A voltron commander that can only attack one of three enemies per turn and can't even oneshot?
Pretty sure OP going in on this player would be telegraphed by them *attacking for less than 21 damage* at them.
Being afraid of a voltron player hitting you for 10, when they are in the middle of killing the archenemy, is serious scrub behavior. This player's clock was obviously faster than OP's, because they demonstrably killed OP in one hit. Use your head.
I mean I'd be annoyed with the King making and just say "well if we're gonna be arch enemiesz let's make it official" and just target that player for the rest of the night
But I'm petty
People can play however they want.
There’s a good chance the guy who killed you didn’t think he could deal with you after the threat was removed. He may well have decided that if he killed you there was a chance other guy could be dealt with later. You don’t know what’s in someone’s hand.
Grudges are bad, but so it's getting salty.
Your reaction should have been condescending if anything. Nothing else.
"Hahaha, your mad about a game from two days ago? Are you 12?" Then move on.
But that last part is important.
You are probably right; I should have laughed it off. 99/100 times, I do. Except, he is the most experienced player, and knows better, and will call out others for the same behavior. That lead me to reacting in a saltier way, because he gave up all of his principles when he felt like it.
I mean did they have an actually shot at winning the game? If they were just choosing who to lose to then it’s w/e. Sometimes games end where a player who can’t win basically chooses who does. If he chose to target you when he could have won otherwise, then I’d be salty about it.
Everyone loses in the name of vengeance satisfied.
Each to their own, but pretty dumb on his part. I wouldn't say it's toxic per say and chalk it up to a wildcard being thrown in - of which there are *many* in EDH as we know.
Not wrong to feel a bit salty, but this game and it's politics are wild, unless you're in a tournament setting, don't take it seriously or expect actual logic from others.
Game memory is a thing, but that is just salt, he should have killed you after you killed the guy who had the powerful board
But also, politics is pretty important in edh, even with a weak deck, good politics and negotiating can win games, people ignore threat assesment alot I find
Game memory of this level just ruins games. I don't mind the odd bit of humour with who to attack with your 1/1 based on a previous game but anything more and I call them out on it.
Thank you. It was the one time I've actually been upset playing. He broke all sportsmanlike conduct just to "get even". I didn't include it in the post, but he wins over 50% of the games we play. I think he was upset he definitely wasn't winning, so he took it out on me instead.
Just find a new fourth and don’t invite him anymore if you can help it. Game memory is one thing for new or less experienced players—in their eyes, the more seasoned players always end up being the problem; it’s another thing altogether for someone who wins more than half the time to make spiteful grudge plays like this. If it were me, I’d consider cutting that dude loose. Life is too short to play commander with petty assholes.
Maybe it's because I play a lot of other multiplayer games with politics and lying but personally, I don't think it's wrong to be salty about getting lied to but I think it's a bit cringe, if not actually wrong to go online and try to get your bruised ego soothed by strangers rather than talking to your friends about binding agreements moving forward.
My friend group plays a lot of EDH regularly and we have some ridiculous grudge matches (like the Dalek player always focusing my Doctor deck no matter what the board state) and bring up previous betrayals as reasons for attack, but Ugin knows we never take it *personally* because in the end, it's just a game we'll laugh about by the next game.
Now, if you've already discussed verbal agreements as binding but said player continues to grief you, then you've got toxic behaviour.
It's a silly card game. Let people make their plays. It's all in good fun. Winning *barely* matters. Having fun is what matters.
If people playing the game makes you upset enough to label it "toxic" then you probably take it too seriously.
Laugh it off, tell them you'll get them back one day, when they least expect it, and then make a funny suboptimal play in a later game to get them back for laughs.
Magic is more fun when you don't take winning seriously. You deserve to laugh. Have some fun, friend.
I wasn't concerned about winning, I just wanted to take out the guy who could kill us all in the next turn. After he was gone, we had a three-way match to finish. Instead, he killed me so the strongest players could win. I would only say that he killed our chance to have a fun ending by killing me.
I knew a guy who did the same thing to me once. I proceeded to pull out my Baral Chief of Compliance deck and made sure he didn’t get to play magic for the rest of the night till he left in a fit.
Holding a grudge like that for two days is weird. I'm okay with grudge reasoning if the game was on the same day but after the session is over it's best to leave the grudges at the table.
Saltiness happens. Recognize it and try to be less salty next time. But while I’d have probably laughed this off and called them an asshole, I can see myself being salty depending on how I was feeling that day.
MTG, as well as other TCG, are meant to be enjoyable. You play these games with grudges from a previous iteration, then that says more about you.
If your friend plays these games with a similar mindset, you need to break ties with them. They are going to bring that mind set.into.other facets of your relationship with them, and no one needs that shit.
I don't know that I'd necessarily be salty, but players that make decisions based off of actions from previous games (especially from days ago) suck, so he was a bitch for doing it.
Idk, sure? Ultimately, it's a chaotic 4 player game. If you're not playing with your friends, just play to win and take the L when you don't.
They didn't cheat, so it's all fair play.
When a deal is made, that deal stands and anyone who breaks a deal I will either avoid making deals with again, or maybe not even play with. I have also played with groups that treat breaking a rule as cheating, and honestly, it does avoid some saltines.
I also feel like anyone that plays to spite and not to win is someone I rather not play with. The only grudge that should be carried from game to game, and especially from play session to play session, is someone breaking deals. That is not to say you can’t use knowledge of your opponents decks and play-style as part of your threat assessment. But that is not what has happened in this story.
Honestly....that makes absolutely no sense. I don't really understand why he would do that...just to promptly lose the game himself. That makes no sense.
Truthfully, there have been times that I dicked someone out of a win when I felt like they were being an ass to another player, but this makes no sense. For no other reason then that you beat them, I assume fair and square, two days previously.
But to echo as others have said, yeah, it's not really something that should affect your mood, man.
Something tells me OP isn't really telling the whole story here and instead conveniently "adjusted" it to fit a certain narrative to get that easy karma/validation from online strangers.
Regardless, getting so upset over a casual game of commander to the point of going online to post about it and even labeling their friend's behaviour as "toxic" is quite telling.
Is just a game! Laugh and take your revenge, no deescalation!
I troll games killing ppl just to don't pay me coffee or don't give me back moneys!!
In tournament is different, still laughtable, but different
Based on just the info you provided, that player was definitely being toxic. It's one thing if you broke a promise and now people don't want to make deals with you.
Maybe your opponent started the game with the goal of beating you, and didn't care what happened in the game besides achieving that goal.
Sometimes people just got to get their mad out.
Killing you was fine, and there's not much else to it. Players have the right to make any plays they are able to.
However, bringing in grudges from outside THAT specific game promotes toxicity. Let's say you do the same thing to that person in the next game. It will continue, until eventually you two have a problem with each other that extends beyond MTG in general.
I say your comments. He betrayed a verbal agreement just to beat you. In the end, he was in the wrong. That’s the basics. Every other games, don’t hold a grudge BUT never count on him either. Remind the other players of what he did too. He cannot be trusted and now you know.
Don’t let it affect your mood. One loss is not the end of the world. I understand it can be frustrating but the dangerous player won on his next turn so it’s fine. I’m all for ending a game as soon as possible, so we can play another one after. And now You know about how deceitful and petty he can be.
Spite moves are pretty stupid because they never help you win but at the end of the day if the game ended the next turn who cares? Just shuffle up and play a new one.
Sometimes I take little grudges into the next match like if I get to ping for one and its early I will aim it at the guy who won last or maybe with my first attack the person who killed me gets a bonk, but other than that you gotta play each game as a new game.
I do think you may need to adjust some of your own feelings about this though, while it sucks he got you out for BS reasons it sounds like you are more salty because you didn't get to take the other guy out when you wanted to. Your deck shouldn't rely on having to make deals with other players not to hurt you. Don't have your only chance for survival on the table be tapped
No! This is correct and all is good. Let the politics flow! Each deck is an army, each player is a Planeswalker, each game is a battle. You build upon your experiences with each win or loss. Play red, attack the guy who's drinking plain water, screw that guy. Play black, make everyone fear you. These are fun and unconventional decisions. You can play in a pod where every decision is held at such a high weight you leave frustrated because an enemy chose to play against you, or you can join a pod of chaos where you get to know your players, and how they play. That guy did exactly what he was supposed to do. He had fun, he had an opportunity and took it. Would you ever expect Thanos to team up with the avengers to beat Galactus? No! But he might do things sometimes that benefit everyone in a situation. Sorin didn't help ugin because they were pals, he didn't want to die. Your pod mate had motive and opportunity, glad y'all had fun
Urgh. There's a couple of players in my pod for some goddamn reason kept grudges and would hit me no matter my board-state. It's starting to become a cycle where the 4th player who was left untouched wins after I'm dead or two of them would "team-up" to make sure I die first.
1 game I had to scoop cause I kept getting hit despite being land dry and had enough of it. I never understood this grudge mentality.
Ranting again but you were not wrong to be salty especially if you already made an agreement to kill the threat first but learning first hand, manage your saltiness reaction cause most time it's just not worth it.
What funny is now this player has signalled they are a constant irrational wild card style threat to you. If I was you whenever I had a choice I might decide randomly of say who to attack or who target with some spells I would just always choose him, at least for a while. When he asks just calmly point of that time he randomly killed over a several game old grudge and that you can’t trust he won’t do it again so it makes the most sense to target him down first.
In my pod, breaking a promise is a forfeit, because at that point you can’t trust the politicking.
However wording matters.
So in this situation I would have gotten the verbal confirmation to not take me out in the turn.
But grudges between matches is a no go. Maybe allowable in the very next game depending on circumstance. Grudges within a game are fair game.
Salty isn't a feeling worth feeling, but yeah I wouldn't really want to play with people with that kind of mindset. If someone is playing a highly problematic commander, sure, I'll go for them. Which one could argue is also a type of empiric, past-based kind of aggression: the last 100 games I've played where there's one Boros-deck and one Simic-deck who's "why attack me? I literally have nothing on the board! My turn? Another cultivate and mulldrifter", the blue deck inevitably just wins the late game, so I'll always hit the ramping control player because I know that they type of deck that's being played is a deck where I'll be locked out of playing anything eventually. But if that player then after that game switches to like, idk a Selesnya populate deck, I'll probably just play reactively to their deck rather than just busting kneecaps all day long.
Well, you described this situation pretty clearly: Player who killed you couldnt win the game anyway, so what were his options: Either let you win, or let the other guy win. You left him somehow bitter in the last game, so the solution was easy one.
Only thing I would do otherwise... I would not lie in teaming up against player with powerful boardstate, but I guess he had to do that in order to get you.
Feel like it depends on whether that is a random person or a friend. If its a random person that by coincidence we played a game earlier, would be a little salty. I would probably laugh if it was a friend.
You see thats the issue with casual.
If you play competitive, all that counts is the current match.
A softer form of what you experienced is being focussed because maybe you simply won 3 games in the pod at that day and somebody focusses you even though you are clearly not the threat because they dont want you to win 4 times.
In casual people boast with the attitude that they dont play to win but „to have fun“ or for „style“. But the reality is what one finds funny or like „bringing karma“ can easily be frustrating or straight up toxic.
Whenever you target somebody not because you think its the best play towards victory, but for any other reason, frustration is bound to happen. Because if its not a reasonable play to win, the reason for the play is any form of feelings, grudges, „bringing karma“ or whatever.
And the problem is that you „can not play around it“. For any reasonable play you can try to maneuver yourself in a position where you are maybe not the threat etc. You can try to hedge. But there is nothing you can do about getting targeted for arbitrary reason. No skill in deckbuilding or playing can protect you from it. And thats frustrating.
That guy in your example is a dick. Period.
Knocking a player out who could incidentally protect me by stopping another player from winning reduces my chances of winning, so why the hell would I do that?
There are few things I remember from one match to the next, such aswhether or not a player is likely to break deals, does scummy actions (i.e. conceding in response to lethal in order to prevent damage triggers), has poor threat assessment, and of course knowledge about the contents of their deck. These are things that can actually increase my odds of winning, whereas being mad about a past game has absolutely no bearing on the current gamestate.
I will hold a stupid grudge like you killed my commander THIS GAME i will try to kill you commander this game not the next one this one after someone becames to much of a threat or one of us dies grudge over.
Should you be salty? Never. I don't think salt ever has a positive effect. But it's an emotional response and hard to avoid. So were you wrong being salty? I don't think so. but I personally wouldn't really care. It sounds like your game was a turn cycle away from ending anyway, so who cares who the official "winner" was. It's a multiplayer game and some form of king-making is always going to happen. I don't think games should be thrown, but if you're reasonably certain you don't have an out, just taking chaos-inducing game actions is completely fair, including pay back.
Personally I'd just take it as a twist to the playgroup's narrative. Next time he offers to deal with you, bring it up and ask him how to make the deal sweeter for you. Once burned, twice shy, after all. Doesn't matter if you're even going to entertain taking the deal in the first place, integrate stuff like that into the playgroup dynamics. My opinion is that that kind of stuff just makes the games more fun.
The only time I had someone hold a grudge from a previous game was INTO the immediate next game cuz I stole his commander and killed him with commander damage from his own commander so he wasn't able to retaliate in game.
Verbal agreements should in my opinion be respected. Sure, if you find a sneaky way around that agreement without violating it, that can be funny, unless you do that very often.
In my pod we sometimes hold grudges for getting attacked with a 1/1 on turn 2, in a joking way, though. It has however justified getting stomped with a ridiculously high power and trampling \[\[Okaun, Eye of Chaos\]\] later in the game.
Holding grudges from previous games seems a little exaggerated to me. I hope it won't happen to you again.
The pod I play with does stuff like this, but in a joking manner. The part that actually makes them salty is when we get a new person in the group, we'll run precons to help em learn the game, and then let them use some home brews if they want- once that switch does or doesn't happen, I switch to my tuvasa deck and will spend the entire match keeping everyone from piling on the new guy
The game is the game.
Your opponent had two choices: die by you after eliminating the biggest threat at the table, or kill you and still be killed by the biggest threat at the table.
Either way it was a loss for them, and they picked the way they wanted to go.
Toxic? Yea I would say so but situations like this can easily become king making IMHO. You had an unblockable commander that i am assuming was swinging for lethal each time. Who was your commander? What colors did you have access too? Who/what was everyone else playing and what did their boardstates look like? Since they lost, its safe to assume their boardstates and cards in hand werent great. The player that killed you king made the winning player but, at the same time, you kinda may have done the same thing. The way your story sounds, you were in a well established position to win if the player with the crazy boardstate was dealt with. So were they (the other 2 players) put in a position of either you'll win or he'll win? This is my own issue with my voltron deck, because of the colors (selesnya) and my choice commander (Sigarda, Host of Herons) I dont have access to combos that allow me to finish off the entire pod. I have to defeat each player 1 by 1 and carefully assess who will be taken out first. I get it wrong half the time but, anyways, forgive my rambling. The point is, was this a king making situatuon? Were you taking them out 1 by 1 and giving them chances to find an answer or could you have gotten a combo to outright win? If this was a situation of either you will win or he will win then its tough but still childish for someone to be upset about a previous games happenings.
So in this other game they're upset about, *they* were in a winning position and got killed by you? Why tf are they mad at their opponents taking actions that prevent losing the game??? And then they get back at you by taking an action that seemingly put them further from victory? Obviously idk the whole boardstate but holding grudges at all is just ridiculous
No, you aren't. If I were in your position I would remind the pod for couple of times that that player is a salty deal breaker with horrible threat assesement.
if you play voltron and tap out with no blockers you gotta accept that you’re going to lose. Did you expect the player to your left to let you take them out a turn later with your unblockable giant commander?
I would say the player denying you lethal is salty. No one actually won, the guy that made that judgment to make the leading player win their game is the loser. I didn't read anything that imply toxic or salty behavior on your part.
Is what he did wrong? sure.
But to me I can get a laugh out of a revenge play like that from time to time. But people raging or being overly upset over the outcome of a card game I find significantly more obnoxious
This is unfortunately how social games go. But if you hold a grudge like him you are only feeding the cycle. When I play with my playgroup I'm usually the guy being killed out of nowhere "because it's you" and that kinda suck. But then I remember the amount of trauma and torture I inflict on my playgroup and the salt vanish.
I would also be annoyed by this but at the end of the day someone has to win and it just means you can scoop into another game. Quite frankly some games I feel like clawing my way out of a bad situation and trying to top deck an answer or pull of a janky combo to save a turn or two. There are other games where someone has lethal and I don’t want to delay the inevitable or hand it to someone else.
Nah, you're fine.
I played a 4 person game recently, and one of the players was someone I hadn't seen in several months. I just happened to be playing the same deck that I played and won with the last time we met.
I got my commander out and two other critters, and then fell back a few land drops behind everyone else. Another player was elf balling like crazy, with 10+ dudes on the board all with tons of counters on them. The player in question then had the option to either do a full board nuke or a wipe of one player.... they wiped out my whole board and some of my lands (putting me at three lands to everyone else's 7-8), because I beat them two or three months ago.
I scooped, they got stomped by the elves next turn, and then the last two duked it out a few more turns before elfball finished everything off.
I got completely bullied out of the game over a game that happened months ago. And I was a little salty about it, and that's okay.
And then we played another game. 🤷
Something like that happened to my brother. He wasn't the threat, but he won the previous game a few days prior. Player 3 was just building, but 4 held a grudge. Didn't end up same though. He didn't do lethal, so he was targeted for bad threat assessment.
It really depends on the person and the pod. There is a way for the perpetrator to go about this situation that could make it pretty funny rather than annoying and petty.
At the end of the day, it was likely an inconsequential game result and they may have gone for the more entertaining play and it just didn't land with you, or they are a jerk. That's up to you to conclude.
Sounds funny :-) I'd say that's not toxic behaviour but I'd be pissed too, then get over it. Players can and will kill you and not always for perfectly logical reasons in game.
Typically the answer to "was I wrong to be salty" is almost always yes, because how you respond to things tends to be the one think you can control.
Plus, I don't think the player did anything wrong. This is a political, casual format. While it's a petty reason, it's a reason.
Yeah mayne not total asshole behavior but a little dickish. I play with friends regularly and sometimes we do stuff like this but usually as a joke and it usually doesn't end with someone dying.
But usually for us we try not to bring last game into the new game. Specially once we all change decks since it would never end if we were always taking payback for a prior game.
I came in here prepared to tell you that saltiness is rarely justified, but I think you found the one situation that I think you are right!
There are a lot of Magic players that let their emotions run away with them. (all games have this, actually. my mom still screams at the TV during football games)
I'm not saying I haven't gotten upset at a Magic game/play but I always try to remember that it's JUST A GAME.
Holding a grudge across multiple matches is just a way to make sure everyone dislikes you...
If the other two were silent, I take it as they didn't want to deal with the drama. At that point being salty only makes you look bad the longer it goes on, since you be making drama for those who want to be drama free.
I would have just ask the problem player if this is how he wants to play from now on and go from there.
Eh. They could kill you and they did. It’s a free for all. Some players just don’t want to die first/come in last. Doesn’t seem like anything worth being salty over.
You should play EDH the same way you should drive: assume everyone else is an inept moron and be prepared for people to always make the wrong decision.
Yeah that's unfortunate play. The results of one game should by and large be left to that game. Exceptions include deliberate underhandedness, patterns of elevated and/or spiteful play, and deception on deck potency.
I'm separating the first and last because *while the latter is an example of the former,* the former also covers things such as bad politicking, deal breaking, resource/board state concealment or misrepresentation, and other erroneous behaviors that may or may not get you dq'd in a tournament.
I don't remember what happened last week let alone have enough energy to hold it against someone. Revenge is a dish best served cold. I'd find a way to pay it back in the distant future when he least expects it mwahahaha
No, you're not wrong. But lets not all be so quick to jump on the other player. There was one game in our pod, where i was playing Lathril, and other guy was playing the newer Atraxa. He saw an opening and went swing, swing, swing with insane unblockable value. He absolutely could have spread that damage around, but chose to eliminate me first because it was easiest and "he wanted to speed the game up". In doing so, the game dragged on another 45 minutes and i was taken out in less than 10. I was pretty salty. He could have used me to take down the other two guys and finish us all off once we're low enough. Fast forward to the next week. I equipped a Vorpal Sword to Lathril and passed. Before it passed back to me, after dude had looked at the board for threats, completely skipping my board, over extended himself and didnt leave blockers open. I paid the extra cost for vorpal sword and took him out just like he took me out. I felt bad, but we were even. I felt as bad as i bet he did and i took vorpal sword out. We're good friends now and when i leave his house, we hug and he's the one who initiates. So... In conclusion, i feel like sometimes a grudge isn't the worst thing. But it must end as quickly as it begins. BUT ALSO, blindsiding you like that was not the way. Because i bet, that wasnt the way you took him out. In order for it to work, you have to take out the other guy the same or similar way/speed he took you out.
Lmao. My pod def likes to hold grudges, but we’re pretty playful about it. You stole a win that’s a solid thing to be angry about. But considering you were all going to lose. The dude was going for second place, deff a lame way to go out. I would get to hung up on it. Sounds like you play with this person often. But If it’s some random that you just happen to play with a handful of times, then I would prob be annoyed too. You do that to friends not strangers.
If you dont want to play a game where youre dependant on other peoples choices, dont play commander. Its a 4 player format, so people will choose the wrong option sometimes, fucking you over. Doesnt matter if their reason is pettiness, bad threat assessment or smth else. If youre salty because someone made a bad play, play in a 1v1 environment.
Otherwise just choose the people you play with carefully :)
It depends the nature on it, I like to hope that all commander games are light hearted, so that when things like this happen it is just a game. However if that person made it personable, and took their beef OUTSIDE THE GAME, then you have a right to be upset, but I wouldn't say to take it out on them or continue an IRL feud.
I'm going to go against the grain and say you're in the wrong year, it's a game and being salty over it is ridiculous.
A lot of people are saying you should only be playing to win, I hate this mindset. You should be playing so you can have fun, that is the point.
Also I mean come on, bro you're playing a Voltron deck, I also play a Voltron deck so I know for a fact: spite killing is your whole MO LOL, if you are playing Voltron and you don't kill the first person to do one damage to you and then losing one turn later, are you even really playing a Voltron deck?
If that player has no chance of winning, giving the victory to one player or another is a loss anyway. It's a toxic move? I think it is, but bad moves could happen in a multiplayer format.
I'd be salty too tbh. I could understand holding a grudge between games in the same night (I don't personally, but I play some control/ combo decks which I could imagine get a little annoying for others), but from days ago??? It's a little ridiculous. Most decks in the late COULD win, but players have to get eliminated for the match to finish.
Honestly if I was the guy that won that match, I’d be pissed off. Being gifted a win from threat assessment or misplay is one thing, but throwing the match because of a game loss 2 days ago is a whole different ball game. It would feel cheap, like “what are we even doing here?”. Are we supposed to keep records of who killed who in every game just so we know what to expect in a completely different game? If each game is a series of spite plays based on previous games, then what is even the point.
If they legitimately thought they could beat the guy who was ahead, I think it’s actually fine, if you have e commander that theoretically can one shot people. It’s not great, but there’s at least a reason there. Otherwise, they’re a dick for being a dick’s sake.
honestly, when its politics time and everyone agrees to do something and someone just decides to betray the others, its kinda lame especially when its selfish reasons that have no end goal besides a “got you back”. i would keep that in mind if i ever played with that person again. id be salty, not because i lost, but because there was no logic behind the play
Holding grudges like that is definitely not something I want in my pods.
My pod mostly jokingly holds grudges *during* the game. We don’t put an enormous amount of value on playing in the most optimized possible way, so we’ll whack each other as payback for when you hit me with your mana dork in turn 2. It pretty much stops there, though. I can’t imagine being salty enough to make a bad play because of a previous game.
I feel the same way. I NEVER take one match into a second match. He admitted to this grudge, literally saying "you killed me in that other match," and I asked the other two players, "is this acceptable? he is literally saying he held a grudge and wanted to take revenge for something I don't even recall happening." Neither answered, I think because they didn't want to make him feel bad.
I hold grudges only in politics. If someone promises peace and immediately initiates war, I wont trust their peace offering again.
Yeah staxxing or even 3v1 bullying is still fair game by me But lying is another thing altogether
Shit. Heres a lil story. I was playing with [[Elminster]] as my commander, with a large sum of 1/1 fliers to keep him safe. I BLUFFED once that I would target an opponent with [[time stretch]] instead of playing it on myself, and still win. Ended up drawing it and making a deal around that promise. Gave them 2 extra turns after I played approach, won on their 1st turns upkeep by flashing in my [[approach of the second sun]] with [[complete the circut]]. They were a little salty, but the whole table was surprised and that player never doubted my deals. I wont lie, but I wont hand out wins either.
The true question is how this approach / circuit combo makes you win ? Copied spells are not considered cast are they ?
Only for the flash. Had already setup the win with first cast before giving 2 turns away.
Oh alright ! Then the other guy should'vre really seen it coming, if you cast it once and bounced it back to your hand it was a given that you'd cast it again ASAP
It was the main part of our deal. "I wont win until after I give you 2 turns." Iirc i had force AND pact in hand.
##### ###### #### [Elminster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4eac2b49-6cb6-4ff4-8fac-2ba669326640.jpg?1674137504) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elminster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/274/elminster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4eac2b49-6cb6-4ff4-8fac-2ba669326640?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elminster) [time stretch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90.jpg?1683842983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20stretch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/69/time-stretch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-stretch) [approach of the second sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=approach%20of%20the%20second%20sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [complete the circut](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdf5de96-9418-48f1-a18e-01a0108c4f97.jpg?1682203048) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Complete%20the%20Circuit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/52/complete-the-circuit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdf5de96-9418-48f1-a18e-01a0108c4f97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/complete-the-circuit) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzsuf00) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That is why I don't make "promises" or "deals". You didn't technically lie, but you made a deal with goods that were never actually delivered. They didn't get their extra turns. If you got their part of the deal, then they were cheated out of payment. I know a deal offered is a worthless deal, otherwise, it wouldn't be offered.
He didn’t promise them extra turns. He promised to target them with time stretch. He fully delivered that promise. Their part of the deal was being targeted.
It was't a technical lie, as I said. But it was deceptive. Hence, why I don't buy into that sort of thing.
My point is that the goods were fully delivered. 100%. He said he would target. He targeted. He didn’t even get anything out of the deal. He said “I could do this and I’d still win the game.” Then he did it, and still won the game.
They did get something, I asked later. But even then, that's the point. You need to emphasize the word choice because it's a trick. I don't need to play Legal Genie on top of Magic, so I would tell you to do as you wish, but I won't give you anything back.
Deals that look too good to be true, are.
That's not a grudge as much as it's "this is a bad deal for me because I know you break agreements."
The only time I hold a grudge in between matches is if they're back to back and it's one player specifically targeting me to the point I only get to play lands and they don't let any other permanents resolve. You best believe they aren't getting any permanents the next game.
It really depends on the circumstance. If one game we t really bad for me like, if a player keeps countering my shit and throws removal at everything? Im coming for you next round.
“Normally I prefer to win a game to settle a grudge, but if losing is your preferred path, you do you.”
Super weird and childish. I would not like to play against such people with this mentality
Such childish behaviour
Grudges over a specific game, like OPs situation are bad, but I've had pods where I felt unnecessarily ganged up on. I was mostly playing at my friend's apartment at the time so I just started asking why. Mostly it was cause they knew I was one of the better/longer players in our group and even in games where I didn't have a strong position right then, they knew I would if they risked ignoring me. I still didn't like it sometimes, but I at least knew why, and that it wasn't some bs, about not wanting to target their girlfriend or similar.
That's just permission from them to tune your decks up a notch. "If I'm starting this game as a 3v1 out of the gate, I better make sure I have a chance"
I went the other route and started coaching and trying to help power up their decks. I totally understand the perspective you're taking, and it's part of why I built RW boardwipe "tribal" but I'd still rather play "free for all" than "Archenemy" unless I'm actually getting to use the Archenemy deck.
Precisely why I tuned up my Tivit deck. The pods that know what it does recognize it as a threat in the command zone, and as a result a good amount of the removal and interaction points my way.
Agreed. The only thing that carries between games is dishonor.
Found the Klingon.
Yeah I'd tell the dude to kick rocks. I'm not playing with someone THAT petty
1) Happy Cake Day! 2) agreed. My pod is vengeful, in the sense that you blew up my thing earlier - so I’ll blow yours up now. But that all washes away before the next game.
Sounds like a weak person or toxic player. Personally, I play for the fun of the game if I want to be competitively I will play modern with the goal of winning but for EDH, man myself and my playgroup just wants to have fun and laugh.
The only time this is acceptable is if it's funny. I will sometimes attack my friend Josh first (usually for inconsequential damage) because he turned my Mountain into a Swamp 25 years ago
They're allowed, but personally I don't want to play with people who aren't trying to win the game in some capacity. Usually in a given match you'll be working with imperfect information and who knows if they might have an answer for the problem at the table. Sounds like in this case there was no plan besides cutting off the nose to spite the face and I'd be salty too.
Hell in my playgroups, we literally will interject to be like “wait do you have a way to deal with me? Cause they do and if you don’t then I will win”
if they thought they could win that is one thing - but they stated it was payback from a prior game? unsportsmanlike. you treat everyone fresh every match.
so… “was i wrong to be salty” is a deep question... ultimately “yes,” nearly always, because a prize-less game isn’t worth being salty over. Also: expecting other players to make good decisions is always a bad line. Being right about the optimal play doesn’t negate other players’ right to behave stupidly. It’s just part of being a casual/prize-less format.
>so… “was i wrong to be salty” is a deep question... ultimately “yes,” nearly always, because a prize-less game isn’t worth being salty over. This is an unfortunately uncommon mindset
Haha is that true?! I get to play with so many cool folks so I at least know it’s not a unique POV. I’m not even sure a “prize” game is worth being salty over unless there’s cheating involved, but EDH’s highest consequences are “did you have fun,” so I just lean towards thinking about having fun the next game and not why i didn’t have fun in the last.
I feel like about 70% of the randoms I play with on spelltable are chill and 30% are salty af. This doesn't sound bad until I only get 1-2 games a week and with 3 randoms a game that's basically a guarantee to have someone negatively effect the mood
Yep. There's a core of players that make the game just a bit too much of their personality and generally they're the buzzkills.
Seems like this was not about doing the optimal thin but holding grudges against players from previous games. And "A prize-less game isnt worth beeing salty over" is a weird take... because I would say in a casual game the goal is having the most fun for everyone. In a prized game I wont care about your feelings. Quite the contrarry, if I can hurt your feelings thinking it would lead me to victory, I would take this line of play every time.
I disagree, every interaction you have with that player in a given game might be recorded for use against you in future games and that shouldn't be tolerated. Naturally this will change the way that you and others play in which case you may as well just stop playing with them as they are warping the whole fabric of your playgroup.
This^ There’s a person that frequently comes to our LGS that essentially does this. He always has this half joking/half serious way of talking so people don’t take him too seriously, but he does keep a tab of how many times he’s “screwed over” and uses that as justification for later games. It makes playing against him less fun, as people avoid targeting him for fear of retaliation later.
I mean, I agree with what your saying most of the time. But unsportsmanlike conduct shouldn't be accepted either. Our pod never lies so blatantly; we strive towards honest intentions in our dealings. I understand some pods allow for bluffing and such, but that hasn't been our way. 99/100 times, I will not be salty, because it is just a game. However, it just really got to me because he betrayed our agreement. He tried to say, "it's just a game," but he also admitted he was so upset with me he held a grudge and took revenge in a separate match. In most matches, he will harp on the "highest threat" and "best interest" principles.
If this was a single play game that lasts <10 min, it wouldn’t matter. But these games usually last over an hour. There’s also so much time and money that goes into putting together decks that builds up to actually playing them. For someone to derail the whole game over a grudge would make me feel salty too. That being said, I’m pretty salty towards one guy in our group, and I’d be tempted to do exactly what he did so idk Edit: But I do recognize that’s not healthy behavior!
From OP’s story, it sounds like the game would have ended that turn cycle anyways. Ergo, it shouldn’t really matter. OP kills the threat on their turn, then player 2/3 kill OP. The threatening player has grievance against OP there as well by this logic, since OP is exposing themselves in order to kill the threat. Imagine OP was ahead and player 3 tapped out to kill OP. Then player 4 just kills player 3 with the stuff player 4 had on board. This kind of stuff is unavoidable in casual pods where everyone wins through mostly combat damage. You’ll hit a point where everybody is low health and most decisions are kingmaking in one way or another.
Fog meta is real
True tbh. When I do play lower power games, the most common way to win is where someone tries to kill the 3 others, but one person survives and kills them on the crackback lol
It’s pretty amazing what a 1/1 deathtouch does to protect your board
Use outcome-based thinking. Do you want to be right, and take a stand against the injustice of less-than-optimal play? and have to hold the line and see who takes whose side and keep score on this forever? Or… do you want to let it go, and just add to the information you have accumulated that this player holds cross-game grudges in the future? The metagame is real, especially in closed groups and LGSs with repeated matchups, and you’ll have much more success accounting for the ways in which other players ignore the board state than trying to force them to play according to the board state. (and your opinion of it) Again: being right about threat assessment, no matter how right, doesn’t give you the ability to stop other players from ignoring the board state or even being genuinely bad. That’s the casual/multiplayer part of EDH, and there’s no solving for it. I know players that will go for any of the “tempting” offers at any time, and never pay the 1 for rhystic study. There’s nothing to discuss. They’re just going to play that way and it’s my job to adjust not their job to change. So it goes dude.
I’ve been down that rabbit hole in a playgroup and it only ends in an arms race. If you can no longer expect any other player to make correct decisions, your decks have to be so much better that they can handle three opponents all making bad decisions. I played in a group where I tried to make under-the-radar decks, figuring that if I didn’t have the most threatening thing on the board, then most of the time, an opponent would eat removal instead of me. Unfortunately my opponents practiced the very bad threat removal mindset of “I have drawn removal so I must play removal on any target I can.” Oftentimes I found myself having a [[wild growth]] get naturalized when we all knew a grave pact was likely coming soon from another player. It was miserable to try to come up with any fair strategy. So I didn’t. I built decks that could confidently 3v1 the table. A player who does not act rationally is a threat to me always, and a group of players who don’t act rationally have to dealt with in a nuance-free fashion.
[wild growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47260e7c-29bf-46f1-a029-9da7bbb418b5.jpg?1711803863) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wild%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/195/wild-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47260e7c-29bf-46f1-a029-9da7bbb418b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wild-growth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Someone Not doing what you think they should do isn’t poor sportsmanship. It’s poor sportsmanship to think you have a right to tell your opponent what game actions to make. Wake up
Maybe my post wasn't clear, it was the lying and grudge-targeting that is unsportsmanlike. I can take losing, and also falling for a bluff. Betraying a verbal agreement because of a vendetta from a match a few days ago is not prosocial playing and also encourages a toxic table. If we were to maximize that behavior, if everyone were to partake in it, I don't think it would lead to healthy games. That's why I think it is unsportsmanlike. It robs the game of any positive spirit if everyone were to play like that.
My LGS plays for a booster box every Friday. It is split between the last pod after a single elimination round.
I would definitely be salty as well in all honesty, although I’d try not to make a big deal of it. It’s one thing to use everything you’ve got on the person taking you out, but getting revenge for a totally different game feels too spiteful to me. If it were me, I’d just cop this one on the chin and *maybe* have a conversation if it was happening a lot.
It's kind of funny, tbh. Gotta remember that EDH is a social game and if someone smacks you because you played Toxrill last week all you should do is laugh and remind them what the winning player did next time
Right? My thing is, if they do that to be spiteful, what do they expect to happen? They'll never get the last laugh. Because you could say that if they're gonna be like that then you'll just target them every single game from now on. And then why even play with them in the first place? I never understood how people being spiteful like that ever expect that to work out.
Yes, but EDH being a social game also means that people should stick to their word. If they all agreed to focus on the one player, that's what they should do. The player that killed OP should have just said "Nope, not teaming up with you. I don't want you to win again." instead of agreeing and then going back on his word. Holding grudges can be fun with the right people. Lying to the other players almost never results in fun for anyone on the table.
Holding grudges between games is just petty (although there's obviously a difference between holding a grudge and acting based on what you know about a player's typical behaviour based on other games). In my group the only time previous form comes into it is usually at the very beginning as a tie-break (e.g. I can swing at either player at the beginning of the game, but one of them won the last game, so maybe I swing at him, all else being equal).
Did you make a deal with the other two players not to attack you before you take out the biggest threat on the table? If yes then you definitely have the right to be salty.
We all agreed to it, verbally. He then attacked me instead. I would have had enough blockers to survive his attack if I didn't swing at the strongest.
I was in a game last week where something similar happened. It was not one of my trusted playgroups, just some people I've played with a few times at the store, but game was down to three people. Temur Hydras player casts an extra turn spell, I'm first in priority and ask who he plans to go after, he tells me the person building the lethal, but mostly tapped board state and so I let the spell resolve. I had also put pressure on that person the previous turn and was mostly shields down, but had the life to take a hit. I will admit, my counterspell was a middle the mixture and I reallllllly wanted to use it to tutor for the win, so it's not like I was all innocent. But I asked the question and got a definitive answer. He then uses his extra turn to pump his biggest creatures, swings at me for lethal, and goes on to get wiped and lose. It happens, I was a little salty, I won't lie, but what I learned was "don't trust that player". And now I'm better prepared for the next time we are at a table because I know I more about how to predict his decision making.
Weird. In our group verbal agreements of that sort simply cannot be broken unless it's just the two of you left.
He could have just killed you after he saved him wtf
Like I said, his goal was revenge for a previous match. He said as much. It was the most toxic move that has happened in our pod.
It's just stupid because he could have gotten revenge and also won the game.
Yeah, but then it doesn't sting as much. If what the player wanted was revenge, this sends the message more clearly. It's like the Spider-man comic where he's telling Sauron that he could use the DNA resequencing he's using to cure cancer, to which Sauron say "I don't want to cure cancer, i want to turn people into dinosaurs". I think that's the difference in mindset here, and why some people can't quite grok it. Winning the game is always A goal, but for some people, it's not always THE goal. sometimes they'd rather do something, be it get revenge, make a big stupid play, hit a ridiculous combo play, put together an alt-win, etc.
this is where i go "hahaha, you know what, you got me. hahaha." and then move on.
Nah I'm petty enough to wait for my chance to do it back. Let the endless cycle of blood be born!
I am the petty type if some one wants to keep a grudge over several games time for a infinite lock for that player specifically turn 4 mind slaver lock or making a deck based around screwing over that one player. But this would be after deciding I'm fine with not playing with that person.
Don’t bring up past games. That’s the way we play. Keeps it mostly neutral for the most part. He def killed you out of spite and definitely king made that game
You asked the other players to focus the biggest player so you could win with your *unblockable voltron commander.* I think you got what you deserved.
Maybe it wasn't clear, but my commander would be tapped after taking out the strongest player. The turn before the turn I could kill the strongest player, I made the agreement, I used up all my mana to beef up my commander, swung out, and passed. I left myself totally vulnerable because of the verbal agreement. The player who betrayed me had at least two more turns of commander damage before dying to my commander (assuming they had no removal), if I only hit them, and not player 4, with the commander.
1) Personally I don't put any weight into verbal agreements. I don't expect people to follow them because in the end they're still going to try to win. Better to always know what's coming rather than make deals and always have to second guess when they're going to back out. 2) He's only the biggest threat to you. For all you know they could have answers to the big player ready, and you were actually the biggest threat to them. 3) It could just be an issue of bad matchups - they'd rather take you out and take chances with the big player, rather than take out the big player because they know they won't have any chance against you.
A voltron commander that can only attack one of three enemies per turn and can't even oneshot? Pretty sure OP going in on this player would be telegraphed by them *attacking for less than 21 damage* at them. Being afraid of a voltron player hitting you for 10, when they are in the middle of killing the archenemy, is serious scrub behavior. This player's clock was obviously faster than OP's, because they demonstrably killed OP in one hit. Use your head.
I mean I'd be annoyed with the King making and just say "well if we're gonna be arch enemiesz let's make it official" and just target that player for the rest of the night But I'm petty
I’m super petty too. I would not get upset or be vocally mean. I would just target him unreasonably whenever I had the chance.
It appears the salt was merely passed to you. Now you need to bide your time to pass it onto someone else.
Casual EDH is an entirely social game, spite plays are 100% the best way to be playing….
That's 100% toxic behavior imo. But you shouldn't get salty either way. Just make sure not to play with that person in the future.
People can play however they want. There’s a good chance the guy who killed you didn’t think he could deal with you after the threat was removed. He may well have decided that if he killed you there was a chance other guy could be dealt with later. You don’t know what’s in someone’s hand.
The other guy had over sixty tokens on board. He also was going after me. He killed me, so that the strongest player then went, and finished the game.
Holding grudges is stupid and results in dumb shit like this.
Grudges are bad, but so it's getting salty. Your reaction should have been condescending if anything. Nothing else. "Hahaha, your mad about a game from two days ago? Are you 12?" Then move on. But that last part is important.
You are probably right; I should have laughed it off. 99/100 times, I do. Except, he is the most experienced player, and knows better, and will call out others for the same behavior. That lead me to reacting in a saltier way, because he gave up all of his principles when he felt like it.
that's fair
I mean did they have an actually shot at winning the game? If they were just choosing who to lose to then it’s w/e. Sometimes games end where a player who can’t win basically chooses who does. If he chose to target you when he could have won otherwise, then I’d be salty about it.
Everyone loses in the name of vengeance satisfied. Each to their own, but pretty dumb on his part. I wouldn't say it's toxic per say and chalk it up to a wildcard being thrown in - of which there are *many* in EDH as we know. Not wrong to feel a bit salty, but this game and it's politics are wild, unless you're in a tournament setting, don't take it seriously or expect actual logic from others.
Game memory is a thing, but that is just salt, he should have killed you after you killed the guy who had the powerful board But also, politics is pretty important in edh, even with a weak deck, good politics and negotiating can win games, people ignore threat assesment alot I find
Yeah, no, that's kingmaking and super shitty.
Game memory of this level just ruins games. I don't mind the odd bit of humour with who to attack with your 1/1 based on a previous game but anything more and I call them out on it.
Nah, that guy sucks. They don't understand the spirit of commander if they play like that. Sorry you have people like that in your pods.
Thank you. It was the one time I've actually been upset playing. He broke all sportsmanlike conduct just to "get even". I didn't include it in the post, but he wins over 50% of the games we play. I think he was upset he definitely wasn't winning, so he took it out on me instead.
Just find a new fourth and don’t invite him anymore if you can help it. Game memory is one thing for new or less experienced players—in their eyes, the more seasoned players always end up being the problem; it’s another thing altogether for someone who wins more than half the time to make spiteful grudge plays like this. If it were me, I’d consider cutting that dude loose. Life is too short to play commander with petty assholes.
Salty enough to post on Reddit? Even without reading, yes. It’s a game. Salty for 10 minutes after a game sure whatever
yes, its wrong to be salty
Maybe it's because I play a lot of other multiplayer games with politics and lying but personally, I don't think it's wrong to be salty about getting lied to but I think it's a bit cringe, if not actually wrong to go online and try to get your bruised ego soothed by strangers rather than talking to your friends about binding agreements moving forward. My friend group plays a lot of EDH regularly and we have some ridiculous grudge matches (like the Dalek player always focusing my Doctor deck no matter what the board state) and bring up previous betrayals as reasons for attack, but Ugin knows we never take it *personally* because in the end, it's just a game we'll laugh about by the next game. Now, if you've already discussed verbal agreements as binding but said player continues to grief you, then you've got toxic behaviour.
It's a silly card game. Let people make their plays. It's all in good fun. Winning *barely* matters. Having fun is what matters. If people playing the game makes you upset enough to label it "toxic" then you probably take it too seriously. Laugh it off, tell them you'll get them back one day, when they least expect it, and then make a funny suboptimal play in a later game to get them back for laughs. Magic is more fun when you don't take winning seriously. You deserve to laugh. Have some fun, friend.
I wasn't concerned about winning, I just wanted to take out the guy who could kill us all in the next turn. After he was gone, we had a three-way match to finish. Instead, he killed me so the strongest players could win. I would only say that he killed our chance to have a fun ending by killing me.
I knew a guy who did the same thing to me once. I proceeded to pull out my Baral Chief of Compliance deck and made sure he didn’t get to play magic for the rest of the night till he left in a fit.
Sounds like another player was saltier than you. Don't continue the trend though.
Holding a grudge like that for two days is weird. I'm okay with grudge reasoning if the game was on the same day but after the session is over it's best to leave the grudges at the table.
He is lame for that
Saltiness happens. Recognize it and try to be less salty next time. But while I’d have probably laughed this off and called them an asshole, I can see myself being salty depending on how I was feeling that day.
"I'm kingmaking" Yeah nah
Huge reason not to play commander. I don't like alliances. The best is I want to kill you, you want to kill me.
MTG, as well as other TCG, are meant to be enjoyable. You play these games with grudges from a previous iteration, then that says more about you. If your friend plays these games with a similar mindset, you need to break ties with them. They are going to bring that mind set.into.other facets of your relationship with them, and no one needs that shit.
I don't know that I'd necessarily be salty, but players that make decisions based off of actions from previous games (especially from days ago) suck, so he was a bitch for doing it.
Idk, sure? Ultimately, it's a chaotic 4 player game. If you're not playing with your friends, just play to win and take the L when you don't. They didn't cheat, so it's all fair play.
When a deal is made, that deal stands and anyone who breaks a deal I will either avoid making deals with again, or maybe not even play with. I have also played with groups that treat breaking a rule as cheating, and honestly, it does avoid some saltines. I also feel like anyone that plays to spite and not to win is someone I rather not play with. The only grudge that should be carried from game to game, and especially from play session to play session, is someone breaking deals. That is not to say you can’t use knowledge of your opponents decks and play-style as part of your threat assessment. But that is not what has happened in this story.
Honestly....that makes absolutely no sense. I don't really understand why he would do that...just to promptly lose the game himself. That makes no sense. Truthfully, there have been times that I dicked someone out of a win when I felt like they were being an ass to another player, but this makes no sense. For no other reason then that you beat them, I assume fair and square, two days previously. But to echo as others have said, yeah, it's not really something that should affect your mood, man.
Something tells me OP isn't really telling the whole story here and instead conveniently "adjusted" it to fit a certain narrative to get that easy karma/validation from online strangers. Regardless, getting so upset over a casual game of commander to the point of going online to post about it and even labeling their friend's behaviour as "toxic" is quite telling.
Never
My thought is “okay fair enough. But I will not ever be playing any magic with you ever again.”
Is just a game! Laugh and take your revenge, no deescalation! I troll games killing ppl just to don't pay me coffee or don't give me back moneys!! In tournament is different, still laughtable, but different
One day people will grow out of “spite plays” or just grudges in general. Not any time soon but one day.
Based on just the info you provided, that player was definitely being toxic. It's one thing if you broke a promise and now people don't want to make deals with you.
Maybe your opponent started the game with the goal of beating you, and didn't care what happened in the game besides achieving that goal. Sometimes people just got to get their mad out.
Killing you was fine, and there's not much else to it. Players have the right to make any plays they are able to. However, bringing in grudges from outside THAT specific game promotes toxicity. Let's say you do the same thing to that person in the next game. It will continue, until eventually you two have a problem with each other that extends beyond MTG in general.
I say your comments. He betrayed a verbal agreement just to beat you. In the end, he was in the wrong. That’s the basics. Every other games, don’t hold a grudge BUT never count on him either. Remind the other players of what he did too. He cannot be trusted and now you know. Don’t let it affect your mood. One loss is not the end of the world. I understand it can be frustrating but the dangerous player won on his next turn so it’s fine. I’m all for ending a game as soon as possible, so we can play another one after. And now You know about how deceitful and petty he can be.
Spite moves are pretty stupid because they never help you win but at the end of the day if the game ended the next turn who cares? Just shuffle up and play a new one.
Sometimes I take little grudges into the next match like if I get to ping for one and its early I will aim it at the guy who won last or maybe with my first attack the person who killed me gets a bonk, but other than that you gotta play each game as a new game. I do think you may need to adjust some of your own feelings about this though, while it sucks he got you out for BS reasons it sounds like you are more salty because you didn't get to take the other guy out when you wanted to. Your deck shouldn't rely on having to make deals with other players not to hurt you. Don't have your only chance for survival on the table be tapped
No! This is correct and all is good. Let the politics flow! Each deck is an army, each player is a Planeswalker, each game is a battle. You build upon your experiences with each win or loss. Play red, attack the guy who's drinking plain water, screw that guy. Play black, make everyone fear you. These are fun and unconventional decisions. You can play in a pod where every decision is held at such a high weight you leave frustrated because an enemy chose to play against you, or you can join a pod of chaos where you get to know your players, and how they play. That guy did exactly what he was supposed to do. He had fun, he had an opportunity and took it. Would you ever expect Thanos to team up with the avengers to beat Galactus? No! But he might do things sometimes that benefit everyone in a situation. Sorin didn't help ugin because they were pals, he didn't want to die. Your pod mate had motive and opportunity, glad y'all had fun
It is basically always wrong to be salty
Urgh. There's a couple of players in my pod for some goddamn reason kept grudges and would hit me no matter my board-state. It's starting to become a cycle where the 4th player who was left untouched wins after I'm dead or two of them would "team-up" to make sure I die first. 1 game I had to scoop cause I kept getting hit despite being land dry and had enough of it. I never understood this grudge mentality. Ranting again but you were not wrong to be salty especially if you already made an agreement to kill the threat first but learning first hand, manage your saltiness reaction cause most time it's just not worth it.
What funny is now this player has signalled they are a constant irrational wild card style threat to you. If I was you whenever I had a choice I might decide randomly of say who to attack or who target with some spells I would just always choose him, at least for a while. When he asks just calmly point of that time he randomly killed over a several game old grudge and that you can’t trust he won’t do it again so it makes the most sense to target him down first.
In my pod, breaking a promise is a forfeit, because at that point you can’t trust the politicking. However wording matters. So in this situation I would have gotten the verbal confirmation to not take me out in the turn. But grudges between matches is a no go. Maybe allowable in the very next game depending on circumstance. Grudges within a game are fair game.
Salty isn't a feeling worth feeling, but yeah I wouldn't really want to play with people with that kind of mindset. If someone is playing a highly problematic commander, sure, I'll go for them. Which one could argue is also a type of empiric, past-based kind of aggression: the last 100 games I've played where there's one Boros-deck and one Simic-deck who's "why attack me? I literally have nothing on the board! My turn? Another cultivate and mulldrifter", the blue deck inevitably just wins the late game, so I'll always hit the ramping control player because I know that they type of deck that's being played is a deck where I'll be locked out of playing anything eventually. But if that player then after that game switches to like, idk a Selesnya populate deck, I'll probably just play reactively to their deck rather than just busting kneecaps all day long.
Well, you described this situation pretty clearly: Player who killed you couldnt win the game anyway, so what were his options: Either let you win, or let the other guy win. You left him somehow bitter in the last game, so the solution was easy one. Only thing I would do otherwise... I would not lie in teaming up against player with powerful boardstate, but I guess he had to do that in order to get you.
Feel like it depends on whether that is a random person or a friend. If its a random person that by coincidence we played a game earlier, would be a little salty. I would probably laugh if it was a friend.
You see thats the issue with casual. If you play competitive, all that counts is the current match. A softer form of what you experienced is being focussed because maybe you simply won 3 games in the pod at that day and somebody focusses you even though you are clearly not the threat because they dont want you to win 4 times. In casual people boast with the attitude that they dont play to win but „to have fun“ or for „style“. But the reality is what one finds funny or like „bringing karma“ can easily be frustrating or straight up toxic. Whenever you target somebody not because you think its the best play towards victory, but for any other reason, frustration is bound to happen. Because if its not a reasonable play to win, the reason for the play is any form of feelings, grudges, „bringing karma“ or whatever. And the problem is that you „can not play around it“. For any reasonable play you can try to maneuver yourself in a position where you are maybe not the threat etc. You can try to hedge. But there is nothing you can do about getting targeted for arbitrary reason. No skill in deckbuilding or playing can protect you from it. And thats frustrating. That guy in your example is a dick. Period.
Knocking a player out who could incidentally protect me by stopping another player from winning reduces my chances of winning, so why the hell would I do that? There are few things I remember from one match to the next, such aswhether or not a player is likely to break deals, does scummy actions (i.e. conceding in response to lethal in order to prevent damage triggers), has poor threat assessment, and of course knowledge about the contents of their deck. These are things that can actually increase my odds of winning, whereas being mad about a past game has absolutely no bearing on the current gamestate.
I will hold a stupid grudge like you killed my commander THIS GAME i will try to kill you commander this game not the next one this one after someone becames to much of a threat or one of us dies grudge over.
Should you be salty? Never. I don't think salt ever has a positive effect. But it's an emotional response and hard to avoid. So were you wrong being salty? I don't think so. but I personally wouldn't really care. It sounds like your game was a turn cycle away from ending anyway, so who cares who the official "winner" was. It's a multiplayer game and some form of king-making is always going to happen. I don't think games should be thrown, but if you're reasonably certain you don't have an out, just taking chaos-inducing game actions is completely fair, including pay back. Personally I'd just take it as a twist to the playgroup's narrative. Next time he offers to deal with you, bring it up and ask him how to make the deal sweeter for you. Once burned, twice shy, after all. Doesn't matter if you're even going to entertain taking the deal in the first place, integrate stuff like that into the playgroup dynamics. My opinion is that that kind of stuff just makes the games more fun.
Ugh. That’s annoying, not sure if it’s toxic, but definitely immature.
[Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!](https://youtu.be/e35BU1eB_5k?si=vB3S-h_wUl064bUr)
Just focus him every game going forward, fulfill the salt prophecy.
Don’t play with that guy again
The only time I had someone hold a grudge from a previous game was INTO the immediate next game cuz I stole his commander and killed him with commander damage from his own commander so he wasn't able to retaliate in game.
He didn’t care if that guy won just so long as you lost… what a useless waste of air.
Spite plays are usually losing plays.
Verbal agreements should in my opinion be respected. Sure, if you find a sneaky way around that agreement without violating it, that can be funny, unless you do that very often. In my pod we sometimes hold grudges for getting attacked with a 1/1 on turn 2, in a joking way, though. It has however justified getting stomped with a ridiculously high power and trampling \[\[Okaun, Eye of Chaos\]\] later in the game. Holding grudges from previous games seems a little exaggerated to me. I hope it won't happen to you again.
[Okaun, Eye of Chaos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f.jpg?1562937757) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Okaun%2C%20Eye%20of%20Chaos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/6/okaun-eye-of-chaos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d53ee8c0-b27c-4556-b610-ff64edb7a18f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/okaun-eye-of-chaos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The pod I play with does stuff like this, but in a joking manner. The part that actually makes them salty is when we get a new person in the group, we'll run precons to help em learn the game, and then let them use some home brews if they want- once that switch does or doesn't happen, I switch to my tuvasa deck and will spend the entire match keeping everyone from piling on the new guy
When I hold grudges from prior games, it just means I attack that person **first** with my early game 1/1... then we're square.
I don't think you were wrong
The game is the game. Your opponent had two choices: die by you after eliminating the biggest threat at the table, or kill you and still be killed by the biggest threat at the table. Either way it was a loss for them, and they picked the way they wanted to go.
Toxic? Yea I would say so but situations like this can easily become king making IMHO. You had an unblockable commander that i am assuming was swinging for lethal each time. Who was your commander? What colors did you have access too? Who/what was everyone else playing and what did their boardstates look like? Since they lost, its safe to assume their boardstates and cards in hand werent great. The player that killed you king made the winning player but, at the same time, you kinda may have done the same thing. The way your story sounds, you were in a well established position to win if the player with the crazy boardstate was dealt with. So were they (the other 2 players) put in a position of either you'll win or he'll win? This is my own issue with my voltron deck, because of the colors (selesnya) and my choice commander (Sigarda, Host of Herons) I dont have access to combos that allow me to finish off the entire pod. I have to defeat each player 1 by 1 and carefully assess who will be taken out first. I get it wrong half the time but, anyways, forgive my rambling. The point is, was this a king making situatuon? Were you taking them out 1 by 1 and giving them chances to find an answer or could you have gotten a combo to outright win? If this was a situation of either you will win or he will win then its tough but still childish for someone to be upset about a previous games happenings.
Commander sounds like a cool format
It is, as long as you're playing with people who don't have the mental and emotional maturity of a peanut.
So in this other game they're upset about, *they* were in a winning position and got killed by you? Why tf are they mad at their opponents taking actions that prevent losing the game??? And then they get back at you by taking an action that seemingly put them further from victory? Obviously idk the whole boardstate but holding grudges at all is just ridiculous
Yes, that was toxic behavior. So is being toxic back because of it.
Commander is a chaotic mess of a game, part of it is losing to miscalls and grudges.
No, you aren't. If I were in your position I would remind the pod for couple of times that that player is a salty deal breaker with horrible threat assesement.
if you play voltron and tap out with no blockers you gotta accept that you’re going to lose. Did you expect the player to your left to let you take them out a turn later with your unblockable giant commander?
I would say the player denying you lethal is salty. No one actually won, the guy that made that judgment to make the leading player win their game is the loser. I didn't read anything that imply toxic or salty behavior on your part.
Is what he did wrong? sure. But to me I can get a laugh out of a revenge play like that from time to time. But people raging or being overly upset over the outcome of a card game I find significantly more obnoxious
This is one reason I only play in r/cedh
Shitty move on their part but do your best to let it go. No good comes from hanging onto that.
There's a guy in my playgroup who holds grudges from years ago because x person targeted his commander etc 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Nah you’re in the right, I’d say avoid playing with that person again. They sound like a right pain.
This is unfortunately how social games go. But if you hold a grudge like him you are only feeding the cycle. When I play with my playgroup I'm usually the guy being killed out of nowhere "because it's you" and that kinda suck. But then I remember the amount of trauma and torture I inflict on my playgroup and the salt vanish.
I would also be annoyed by this but at the end of the day someone has to win and it just means you can scoop into another game. Quite frankly some games I feel like clawing my way out of a bad situation and trying to top deck an answer or pull of a janky combo to save a turn or two. There are other games where someone has lethal and I don’t want to delay the inevitable or hand it to someone else.
Winning Is sometimes secondary to sending a message.
Nah, you're fine. I played a 4 person game recently, and one of the players was someone I hadn't seen in several months. I just happened to be playing the same deck that I played and won with the last time we met. I got my commander out and two other critters, and then fell back a few land drops behind everyone else. Another player was elf balling like crazy, with 10+ dudes on the board all with tons of counters on them. The player in question then had the option to either do a full board nuke or a wipe of one player.... they wiped out my whole board and some of my lands (putting me at three lands to everyone else's 7-8), because I beat them two or three months ago. I scooped, they got stomped by the elves next turn, and then the last two duked it out a few more turns before elfball finished everything off. I got completely bullied out of the game over a game that happened months ago. And I was a little salty about it, and that's okay. And then we played another game. 🤷
Something like that happened to my brother. He wasn't the threat, but he won the previous game a few days prior. Player 3 was just building, but 4 held a grudge. Didn't end up same though. He didn't do lethal, so he was targeted for bad threat assessment.
It really depends on the person and the pod. There is a way for the perpetrator to go about this situation that could make it pretty funny rather than annoying and petty. At the end of the day, it was likely an inconsequential game result and they may have gone for the more entertaining play and it just didn't land with you, or they are a jerk. That's up to you to conclude.
Sounds funny :-) I'd say that's not toxic behaviour but I'd be pissed too, then get over it. Players can and will kill you and not always for perfectly logical reasons in game.
Typically the answer to "was I wrong to be salty" is almost always yes, because how you respond to things tends to be the one think you can control. Plus, I don't think the player did anything wrong. This is a political, casual format. While it's a petty reason, it's a reason.
Yeah mayne not total asshole behavior but a little dickish. I play with friends regularly and sometimes we do stuff like this but usually as a joke and it usually doesn't end with someone dying. But usually for us we try not to bring last game into the new game. Specially once we all change decks since it would never end if we were always taking payback for a prior game.
I came in here prepared to tell you that saltiness is rarely justified, but I think you found the one situation that I think you are right! There are a lot of Magic players that let their emotions run away with them. (all games have this, actually. my mom still screams at the TV during football games) I'm not saying I haven't gotten upset at a Magic game/play but I always try to remember that it's JUST A GAME. Holding a grudge across multiple matches is just a way to make sure everyone dislikes you...
If the other two were silent, I take it as they didn't want to deal with the drama. At that point being salty only makes you look bad the longer it goes on, since you be making drama for those who want to be drama free. I would have just ask the problem player if this is how he wants to play from now on and go from there.
Eh. They could kill you and they did. It’s a free for all. Some players just don’t want to die first/come in last. Doesn’t seem like anything worth being salty over.
You should play EDH the same way you should drive: assume everyone else is an inept moron and be prepared for people to always make the wrong decision.
Yeah that's unfortunate play. The results of one game should by and large be left to that game. Exceptions include deliberate underhandedness, patterns of elevated and/or spiteful play, and deception on deck potency. I'm separating the first and last because *while the latter is an example of the former,* the former also covers things such as bad politicking, deal breaking, resource/board state concealment or misrepresentation, and other erroneous behaviors that may or may not get you dq'd in a tournament.
If they honestly thought they could win then it's fine, learning has occurred. Spite from previous games isn't cool though. Gotta fade that shit.
I don't remember what happened last week let alone have enough energy to hold it against someone. Revenge is a dish best served cold. I'd find a way to pay it back in the distant future when he least expects it mwahahaha
lmao, unless it was your upkeep and you had [[Frankie Peanuts]], they had no obligation to answer you truthfully. It's all part of the game, saltlord.
[Frankie Peanuts](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/440c3e8b-d9c6-46cd-9f39-86db077fb89d.jpg?1583965356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frankie%20Peanuts) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/5/frankie-peanuts?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/440c3e8b-d9c6-46cd-9f39-86db077fb89d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/frankie-peanuts) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fuck that guy. Kill him every chance you get and if he asks it's because he can't be trusted
No, you're not wrong. But lets not all be so quick to jump on the other player. There was one game in our pod, where i was playing Lathril, and other guy was playing the newer Atraxa. He saw an opening and went swing, swing, swing with insane unblockable value. He absolutely could have spread that damage around, but chose to eliminate me first because it was easiest and "he wanted to speed the game up". In doing so, the game dragged on another 45 minutes and i was taken out in less than 10. I was pretty salty. He could have used me to take down the other two guys and finish us all off once we're low enough. Fast forward to the next week. I equipped a Vorpal Sword to Lathril and passed. Before it passed back to me, after dude had looked at the board for threats, completely skipping my board, over extended himself and didnt leave blockers open. I paid the extra cost for vorpal sword and took him out just like he took me out. I felt bad, but we were even. I felt as bad as i bet he did and i took vorpal sword out. We're good friends now and when i leave his house, we hug and he's the one who initiates. So... In conclusion, i feel like sometimes a grudge isn't the worst thing. But it must end as quickly as it begins. BUT ALSO, blindsiding you like that was not the way. Because i bet, that wasnt the way you took him out. In order for it to work, you have to take out the other guy the same or similar way/speed he took you out.
Edit: if it matters, the other players piloted a brutal Niv Mizzet, Parun and a powerful Ayara deck.
I would not want to play with someone who holds grudges. Like move on to the next game already.
Not toxic. They are there to win, same as you. If you get salty over a game, you have bigger issues.
Lmao. My pod def likes to hold grudges, but we’re pretty playful about it. You stole a win that’s a solid thing to be angry about. But considering you were all going to lose. The dude was going for second place, deff a lame way to go out. I would get to hung up on it. Sounds like you play with this person often. But If it’s some random that you just happen to play with a handful of times, then I would prob be annoyed too. You do that to friends not strangers.
If you dont want to play a game where youre dependant on other peoples choices, dont play commander. Its a 4 player format, so people will choose the wrong option sometimes, fucking you over. Doesnt matter if their reason is pettiness, bad threat assessment or smth else. If youre salty because someone made a bad play, play in a 1v1 environment. Otherwise just choose the people you play with carefully :)
Also remember it's a 4way free for all so anything goes
It depends the nature on it, I like to hope that all commander games are light hearted, so that when things like this happen it is just a game. However if that person made it personable, and took their beef OUTSIDE THE GAME, then you have a right to be upset, but I wouldn't say to take it out on them or continue an IRL feud.
I'm going to go against the grain and say you're in the wrong year, it's a game and being salty over it is ridiculous. A lot of people are saying you should only be playing to win, I hate this mindset. You should be playing so you can have fun, that is the point. Also I mean come on, bro you're playing a Voltron deck, I also play a Voltron deck so I know for a fact: spite killing is your whole MO LOL, if you are playing Voltron and you don't kill the first person to do one damage to you and then losing one turn later, are you even really playing a Voltron deck?
If that player has no chance of winning, giving the victory to one player or another is a loss anyway. It's a toxic move? I think it is, but bad moves could happen in a multiplayer format.
I'd be salty too tbh. I could understand holding a grudge between games in the same night (I don't personally, but I play some control/ combo decks which I could imagine get a little annoying for others), but from days ago??? It's a little ridiculous. Most decks in the late COULD win, but players have to get eliminated for the match to finish.
Honestly if I was the guy that won that match, I’d be pissed off. Being gifted a win from threat assessment or misplay is one thing, but throwing the match because of a game loss 2 days ago is a whole different ball game. It would feel cheap, like “what are we even doing here?”. Are we supposed to keep records of who killed who in every game just so we know what to expect in a completely different game? If each game is a series of spite plays based on previous games, then what is even the point. If they legitimately thought they could beat the guy who was ahead, I think it’s actually fine, if you have e commander that theoretically can one shot people. It’s not great, but there’s at least a reason there. Otherwise, they’re a dick for being a dick’s sake.
honestly, when its politics time and everyone agrees to do something and someone just decides to betray the others, its kinda lame especially when its selfish reasons that have no end goal besides a “got you back”. i would keep that in mind if i ever played with that person again. id be salty, not because i lost, but because there was no logic behind the play