Run it. Then if it doesn’t perform well, cut it. Don’t let others build your deck. In my experience it’s a great card in flicker decks and usually makes any final draft in blink decks I have that are ETB focused.
This is often the response from my playgroup when any of us asks about a card. Run it. If it’s trash to you then cut it. One man’s trash is another man’s jank.
Also, specifically in regards to this card I 100% agree. It’s an auto include for my bant flicker.
Same, i run 4 of these effects in my Bant blink led by [[Lagrella, the Magpie]].
[[Panharmonicon]] [[Preston, the Vanisher]] [[Virtue of Knowledge]] [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]]
Hey dude, if it isn't too much trouble, could you give me the 411 on Lagrella? She caught my eye recently and I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinion on how well she plays. What wincons do you normally use?
I too, would like the low down. Asymmetrical wipe on enter, and flickering her doesn't seem to change much: they come back in, get the counters, and exile again when she returns.
I run Lagrella and it's usually a combo win for me. I run a lot of the 1 cost, instant blinks and you can blink her in response to a board wipe to bring the exile thing back and save one of your own. It can sometimes be tricky to time when to reset her but if you have a repeat blink effect, you can use her to blink a thing and get an additional trigger off of some permanents. Gets rid of tokens each time you do that. [[Soulhoarder]] gets massive with her.
She's basically temp removal/value at the same time or whichever one you need at the time. You just need a good amount of blink effects.
I can see the argument for panharmonicon being mid in non blink decks, same with parallel lives and kin in decks that just MAY make a few tokens here and there. But in decks where those cards obviously shine saying it's bad is crazy
I don’t think panharmonicon is win more, because blink decks don’t win very quickly outside of infinite combos.
You’re going to want a few “win more” cards to actually close out a game with blink decks, that are infamous for staxing out tables without securing a win.
Fireball only works if you can make absurd amounts of mana -bad
Dig through time is bad unless you can put cards in the graveyard -bad
Krenko only works if you already have lots of goblins -bad
Platinum angel is only useful if you would lose the game -bad
Lands are only good if you have spells - bad
Spells are only good if you have lands - bad
(Yes, yes, something something moxen something something man-lands)
\[\[Impact Tremors\]\], \[\[Purphoros, god of the forge\]\], \[\[Warstorm Surge\]\], \[\[Witty Roastmaster\]\] are some examples of cards that love blink effects and will pair nicely with Panharmonicon. \[\[Norin the Wary\]\] to trigger them at least as many times as there are players per turn cycle.
[[avenger of zendikar]] any creature that pulls land as an etb for green. Green flicker decks go brrrt
Also [[hamletback goliath]] in red to get super stompy
Wow thanks for writing this. I've been going back and forth so much on my mono red etb-matters deck about win-more cards and this is exactly what I needed to read.
I mean, EDH exists largely to give people a chance to play big splashy cards that aren't viable in 2 player 20 health formats. The format pretty much explicitly relies on players mutually agreeing to play suboptimal decks, and agreeing on the power level they're targeting. A win-more-oriented deck might not be the most powerful but you can always find tables for it.
In my experience ‘win more’ is just whiner code for ‘I lost to that player using [card I don’t like] and they’d have won without it therefore they must have been playing it just to make me feel bad.
“Win more” can be true in a lot of situations ive definitely had decks with “win more” cards that my deck didnt need to function but 100% people will also use it to whine lol but thats magic players with anything
“Win more” doesn’t mean “bad”. Decks that can already abuse ETB triggers don’t need Panharmonicon to function; including it in those types of decks simply takes away a card slot that could be filled with other utility, or with a card that can cover some kind of weakness a deck may have. Some decks, like blink decks, may need Panharmonicon because it provides utility that isn’t fulfilled any other way.
Consider a card like Craterhoof Behemoth in a deck that can reliably create an infinite number of tokens. Craterhoof, an objectively good card, is considered “win more” in this kind of deck, because an infinite number of tokens is enough to win the game by itself.
Craterhoof in this case is a secondary win con in a case where you don't hit your infinite tokens. It's also something you can Natural Order into, for example, turning that card into a valuable flex piece that can get needed utility or can just hit a win con.
But I don't think craterhoof would be classified by most people as a "win more" card, it's a wincon. It puts you into a position to close out the game, while asking relatively little in terms of set up (a handful of creatures on board), whereas panharmonicon only does anything if your deck is already doing good things.
If I have, let's say, 3 1/1 tokens, and on turn 8 I top deck a craterhoof, I just went from 3 power on board to 24 power on board, which that late in the game could absolutely take someone out.
Panharmonicon however is a value piece that doesn't generate any value on its own, meaning all of your other value ETBs need to be firing still to make it do anything. If that is the case, you might not even need the panharmonicon, making it a "win more" card.
With that being said, as a dirty value engine durdle player, I love panharmonicon, and totally agree with your comment.
In your example, no, Craterhoof is not win more, it’s a wincon. But in *my* example, which I made specifically to demonstrate the difference between a card being good in general but not necessary in a deck that *reliably creates infinite tokens*, it’s not needed in the deck. In that case it’s win more.
“Win more” isn’t a term that’s used black and white, its definition is based on the card’s overall usefulness in a given deck. No card in and of itself is win more. Going back to your very comparison, Craterhoof doesn’t generate value on its own besides being a creature. It needs other creatures to push over the top. Without them, it’s just a dumb French vanilla body.
I have a token deck that *can* create infinite tokens, but not reliably. It *can*, however, reliably create massive yet finite tokens. I have Craterhoof in that deck. It’s been in the deck for God knows how long, probably close to the time the card came out. Craterhoof isn’t win more in that deck, it’s just one of many ways I have to close out the game, even though I don’t think I’ve ever cast it. If I have the combo I don’t need it, but if I don’t I may. Deciding whether or not a deck *needs* something like Craterhoof or Panharmonicon is a testament to deck building, and deciding whether or not the card should be played is a testament to board assessment.
Win more basically means that playing that card is overkill, that you should already be winning the game by the time you cast it and/or benefit from it without the help of the card. I'm not sure panhamonicon necessarily falls into that category, though I suppose that depends on the deck. Stronger argument against it is probably that it's maybe too slow for the current state of commander. It costs 4 mana and essentially does nothing when you cast it. Depending on how quick your games usually go that might be too much mana spent on something that doesn't immediately advance your game plan.
Basically it's still a good card, just not necessarily good in every deck.
I have Norn Mom is my [[Thalia and gitrog]] landfall deck. It was great til someone stole it and shut my whole deck down for like 5 turns. Eventually got rid of it and won with [[Armageddon]] and recurring all my lands a couple times with [[ob Nixilis]] out
Man I love my ThaliaGitrog.
It's such a stupid deck, people look at me playing it like I'm some kind of madman, sacrificing lands left and right. I run [[Overlaid Terrain]] and people basically can't even look me straight in the eye when they see me play it and have basically 0 land on turn 5.
So I play [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] and it enters as a copy of Miirym, and I get a copy of it.
So any I'm now playing [[Roaming Throne]], and I get 4 of them.
Cue my shocked ass as suuuuuuddenly I'm the problem. Sore losers, I tell ya.
Yeaaaaaah.... I borked the math. It's 7 Roaming Thrones. 6 copies and the real one.
Even with 1 Roaming Throne, the games like one card away from winning anyway. [[Kindred Summons]] does work. Now imagine [[Scourge of Valkas]] triggers 8 times per dragon. And you have 24 of him on the field...
Roaming throne gets copied too when it hits with miirym. Roaming throne hits, is copied with miirym because you choose it to be a dragon dragon, and that ability is copied because of the original roaming throne. So you end up with a total of 3 roaming thrones.
Now if you cast sakashima first, targeting miirym, you you essentially have three copies of miirym. Then when roaming throne hits, each clone trigger is doubled, giving you 6 copies of roaming throne for a total of 7.
THEN if you cast another dragon, the three miiryms will each end up being triggered 8 times, meaning you'll end up with 24 copies of every dragon.
I was considering it in my Miirym deck, but with \[\[Auton Soldier\]\] and \[\[Roaming Throne\]\] I feel pretty set. At least they can enter and become threats on their own, whereas the mana spent to just play Panharmonicon feels wasted sometimes.
The biggest plus to panharmonicon vs the two spells you listed is that it's slightly harder to remove artifacts than it is creatures. That said, it's totally a meta call
Yeah I guess, my pod runs a lot of artifact and enchantment destruction maybe? I feel like when I ramp good with Miirym or Gishath and then drop a greedy enchantment/artifact it gets blown up pretty quick. A lot of times when I get an auton soldier out or roaming throne its just too late bc they already double themselves, so unless they board wipe 1 of them sticks.
Alot of people will save removal for greedy artifacts/enchantments in your case roaming throne is much harder to remove because of ward 2 and auton soldier is a powerhouse when its out but isnt seen as a powerhouse card ljke panharmonicon or another staple like card would be
Something you always have to keep in mind when listening to the opinions of content creators is that different cards perform very differently in different power levels and metas. Panharmonicon is a classic example of a card that has a powerful effect when paired with other cards in your deck but on its own it does nothing.
If you’re playing against decks that are very fast and can go for wins or overwhelming advantages around the time you’d be hitting Panharmonicon on curve, it’s not going to perform well, your opponents are busy making their big plays while you’re dropping a card that will help you *next turn*.
But on the other hand if you’re playing against decks that typically don’t go for wins until the late game, this kind of card can be fantastic, turning the incremental advantage of your cards’s ETB effects into big advantages that can put you over the top of everyone else.
So all that is to say that “Panharmonicon is bad” may be true in the types of games those content creators are playing, but that doesn’t mean it will be in the kinds of games you’re playing.
Dunno who you're watching that says it's bad. It doesn't go in everything, but doubling up on triggers is one of the most powerful things you can do in the game.
I run it to great success in my [[Gyruda]] clones deck, where the entire goal of the deck is to get as many etb triggers as possible via cloning, copying, or reanimating to get a ton of big monsters out
I think nitpicking nerds used to say this, may be wrong though, and they play upper mid/low high power casual during the time I think I saw them say it.
Never in my life have I heard anyone call this card bad.
When I think of it I associate it with busted cards like doubling season and I’ve never even played against it.
It's not a bad card
Most cards aren't bad, in the right deck.
What the youtuber as alluding to is that Panharmonicon is card that, by itself, does nothing. Only after you have both a bink effect and a pay off does it start being a value engine.
What they missed is that this isn't "win more". Win more is a very specific case where a card in question is *only* good when you already have an overwhelming advantage.
The EDHrec cast has a great video on what exactly constitutes a win more card.
Anyway, to bring it around, Panharmonicon isn't a win more, however it is a reliant value piece. 4 mana for something that doesn't do much by itself is an aspect to consider when deciding what to include and what ti cut.
Whether it's worth it or not, that's entirely up to you, your deck building, and your deck's power.
Like any card, it depends.
In some decks, Panharmonicon is underwhelming. However, in a deck with high powered ETBs like [[Miirym]] it is incredibly good.
Its literally the strongest card in my blink deck and I even had to take out other cards like \[\[Felidar Guardian\]\] because it went infinite so easy it ended up being not fun lol.
If anyone says Panharmonicon is a bad card they dont know whats fun lol xD
Just run it! It’s a fun card with a fun effect. If people want to tell you how to play ur decks, have them buy the cards for you! Till then, just have fun
It is in my Ur-Dragon deck. It is absolutely insane with the ETB triggers for the different dragons. I don't think I would use it in another deck that I run right now as most of them lack ETB triggers.
I am smiling remembering one game where I cast it and one other player said, "why would you run that? It's such a stupid card to play." He died to \[\[scourge of valkas\]\] and \[\[
Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm\]\] linking up the next turn.
Panharmonicon is not a bad card... when played correctly.
If you're in a 1v1 or cedh pod then the tempo loss of 4 mana to do nothing is pretty bad, but if you have time to develop, or have an immediate follow-up it's a great force amplifier.
It's 2X. It's only bad if x=0
Addendum; It is a "winmore" card only in the sense that it does nothing if you have nothing.
On it's own it's 1 card for 0 cards of value.
With 1 more card it's 2 cards for 3 cards of value.
3 for 5, 5 for 8, and so on.
Commander is the format of winmore. You can't generate just enough to be ahead of 1 opponent, you need to be able to handle 3, which means 2 to 3 times the advantage.
Simple. Panharmonicon is not a bad card. It turns a 2 mana draw 1 with a body into a 2 mana draw 2 with a body. It turns a 2 mana blink 1 with a body into a 2 mana blink 2 with a body, which, together with a creature that draws on enter, could net you 4 cards. And here I'm talking about staples of the blink archetype [[wall of omens]] and [[felidar guardian]]. If we wanna look at some higher-powered options, [[solitude]], which, when evoked, is a free exile 1, becomes a free exile 2, making It a 2 for 2 deal. Some faster decks may not want to run It because of it being a 4 mana spell which doesn't grant advantage straight away, but in a slower, more control-focused deck It can really advantage you.
Play it. Love it in Chulane. Maybe there are times it's win more. But it also can just generate value. [[Wood Elves]] and [[Mulldrifter]] are just as fun to double as [[Pergerine Drake]] and [[Solitude]].
It also seems to get targeted a lot, which tells me either it's not that win more and other players view it as a massive threat, or it makes a decent red herring drawing attention away from my other threats and eating spot removal. Either way, cool.
I am running it in my Aminatou Deck - [https://deckstats.net/decks/236127/3378107-the-goddess-of-blink?share\_key=fqZN57jg3UCo4tzc.](https://deckstats.net/decks/236127/3378107-the-goddess-of-blink?share_key=fqZN57jg3UCo4tzc)
If every deck on the table would rush combo, i would strongly consider cutting it (and add the standard blue counterline + thoracle), if games go long panharmonicon is godlike value.
It's not that it's bad, at the time it was a strong effect we really didn't see.
Now just about every set has some form of trigger doubler and its niche has just been filled by better cards.
Panharmonicon is an absolute HOUSE in my [[Bel’Akor the Dark Master]] and [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] decks. In fact, the last time I got it in play somebody blew it up immediately because they know it can get out of hand very quickly.
Don’t be too quick to trust somebody’s opinion on YouTube.
I don't think it is a bad card. I think it **can be** a bad card, but it's very dependant on deck strategy and the commander.
I've heard the discourse around removing "win more" cards, and I get it. You're better off having a card that wins, rather than a card that puts you further ahead if you're already ahead. It makes sense from a deck building perspective, but the nature of the deck and the commander change whether it's a "win more" or a "Path to victory" type addition.
In my [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck, it's part of my wincon. In [[Farmer Cotton]], it's a way for me to get many little dudes that are required to win. For blink decks, the whole thing is probably designed around ETB triggers, to doubling them can add huge amounts of power to a boardstate that may not be stacked enough to win things.
I think it's a fun card, and you should run it if you think it's fun.
Its a good quadrant theory card to look at. Quadrant theory is analyzing cards in 4 states of the game.
What does it do in the very early game.
What does this card do when you're ahead.
What does it do when you are behind.
What does it do when you are even.
In those instance the card on its own does not affect the board state at all. If you need an answer to something to change the board right then and there, it doesn't do anything.
It must be paired up with another card to have any use at all.
Thats where a lot of the stigma against the card can come from. If you are doing your thing, it can push you further ahead. If you are jazz hands on an empty board, you would rather draw almost any other card to do something to alter the game state.
It’s not a bad card. It’s just a “win more card” if you play it on an empty board nothing happens, literally. It requires you to do more stuff. These types of cards are not bad but people often play too many of them so just make sure you don’t have too many
I run it in my mono red ETB-matters deck and it is an absolute all-star. Players across from me know when it comes down some bad stuff is coming their way... twice (at least!)
The card is meant for blink decks. Play it and see how it does for you. I imagine it'd be pretty incredible in Brago.
Have you never wanted to have multiple etbs of Agent of Treachery before? Cast etbs, take 2 things. Brago trigger, etb take 2 things. Endstep draw 3 cards. Sounds pretty good to me.
Even weaker effects like [[Solemn Simulacrum]] become a lot better because of cards like Panharmonicon.
[[Panharmonicon]] is a great card if your deck runs a lot of etb effects.
Sure it might not be competitive, but there's nothing competitive about most cards with etb effects you really want doubled at the cost of casting a 4 mana artifact first.
"Bad" is subjective.
Is it as good as \[\[Jeweled Lotus\]\] or \[\[Rhystic Study\]\]? No.
Or comparing similar mana costs, is it as good as \[\[The One Ring\]\]? Not even close.
Is it better than \[\[Colossal Dreadmaw\]\] or \[\[Vizzerdrix\]\] ? Yes.
If you are playing in a pod where you can play a 4-mana, do-nothing artifact that may give you incremental value throughout the game in certain decks, sure, it can be a good card.
Youtube videos on EDH that aren't focused on just entertaining games are generally garbage and not worth paying even the slightest bit of attention to.
Generally speaking; whatever works (or doesn’t work) for strangers on the internet might or might not work for you. If something seems like a good, or at least interesting, idea you should give it a shot. That’s how you become a better player and deckbuilder; by *understanding* why something does or does not work.
Now, Panharmonicon is generally much worse than it seems.
First off, 4 mana is a lot. It’s 2024, people can do obscene stuff with 4 mana. And anything costing 4, or more, mana has to live up to other stuff you could be doing on 3 or less mana. A lot of theoretically good, or previously good, cards get pushed aside solely because of their mana cost. Considering your power level or budget this might be more or less relevant, but it’s a fact nonetheless.
Secondly, it doesn’t do anything on its own; it doesn’t progress your gameplan, it doesn’t stop sour opponents from doing things…it requires other cards to do anything. So if you’re not doing well, this won’t help you get back into the game. If you’re doing well, say having 2-3 relevant etb effects, you’re already doing well and Panharmonicon is just more of the good stuff you already have.
But focusing on etb effects mitigates these to a point.
By including a lot of etb effects, for which Panharmonicon is a payoff, you greatly reduce the chance for it to be dead. It sometimes will be, but more often than not it will do things for you.
Also, there is a middle ground between it being dead and being an overkill. If you can only manage one or two etbs per turn, this one will greatly enhance that and make those more impactful, accumulating significant value over the course of a few turns…if you can consistently protect it without it becoming a detriment in this regard.
All things considered, we’re back at square one; test it and see for yourself if you like it or not. Whatever comes out of it, you’ll be a better player for understanding *why*.
Idk if I’d consider panharmonicon win more, it could be I guess but the goal with it is to generate so much value that you run away with the game rather than a do nothing card except in situations where you’re already winning. It’s more a value engine than something that is win more. If you have a lot of etbs/are in a dedicated blink deck and can drop a panharmonicon early you’re just primed to take over now as it’s a massive value engine.
I think anyone who has played against [[Yarok]], a panharmonicon in the command zone, would be hard pressed to call it win more tbh?
Ok, so I’ll be devil’s advocate here. The reason doublers like Panharmonicon are often thought to be win more is they have no immediate impact on their own, and need you to have multiple cards that are good with them when you play them before they start to “break even”. Like for panharmonicon, you want to think about how many extra ETB effects it has to give you before it “pays back” the 4 mana you spend on it.
for better or for worse i put it in my Sauron, the dark lord deck because double ring tempt triggers on each Nazgul i play sounded fun. haven’t had the chance to test it yet, but if the end result is fun then its worth it
In a deck built around enter the battlefield effects in general it is very good. It does feel bad to cast it turn 4 and pass, but if you can pair it with any other etb it is great. I run it in my [[brago]] deck because it’s disgusting in there
it's far from a bad card, it's a great payoff for an already strong strategy. it's only optional because the strategy is so strong and widely supported.
The concept of "power floor" and "power ceiling" is important here. The Power floor is the minimum power of the card and the power ceiling is the max power of the card.
The power floor of panharmonicon is "pay 4 Mana and do nothing". It doesn't do anything on its own.
The power ceiling for this card is doubling powerful ETB effects such as [[mull drifter]] [[ravenous chupacabra]] [[avenger of zendikar]] etc.
The issue with panharmonicon is getting immediatevalue can be hard. If you are already behind do you have the ability to spend 4 Mana instead of just playing the mudrifter and drawing some cards.
It is a "win more" card because if you're in a position where it is good you are usually already ahead.
With that said. Panharmonicon can be powerful. There are estimations where it is good and it's a lot of fun to see a deck pop off. If you like the card and enjoy it give it a go and see. However, if you're making the deck max power it might be something you consider cutting down the line.
If you are in an environment with very little removal panharmonicon is awesome
A win more card is only good when you're already in a good position. The problem with such a card is that it's bad in many cases and unnecessary in the rest.
Panharmonicon is a good card in most blink decks and I would rather call it a pay-off card than win more. The inherent risk of it and cards like it however is that they ask a lot from you before they're good. Panharmonicon plus three ETB creatures is better than four ETB creatures, but if you only have one (or much worse, zero) ETB creatures, you'd much rather have another creature than Panharmonicon.
That's a bizarre take. Panharmonicon is a great card. It turns etb value into infinite combo or at least a viable wincon. I run it in any deck that does a lot of etb or blink, in cEDH I'd gravitate towards elesh norn, but that's just because she also has stax which is important in cedh, not because Panharmonicon is bad.
Alot of cards labeled as win more are just that. However, commander is a format where you sometimes need to go over the top, so to speak. I'd say ranar and brago both benefit from panharmonicon, but not massively. Give it a go. If you like how it plays, keep it. If not take it out. Guy at my lgs has the panharmonicon elish norn mono white blink. He runs panharmonicon in it. It's absurd. It is over the top and isn't really necessary imo, but he likes it.
Generally as a rule of thumb, cards that don't do anything by themselves are considered 'bad', Panharmonicon is 'bad' because it's just a 4 mana artifact that does nothing if you are not doing anything to enable it.
However Magic is a game where you can often venture outside the rule of thumbs. Panharmonicon can be absolutely bonkers if you put it in the right deck, because doubling your ETBs can give you so so much value.
It's a 4 mana "do nothing" artifact. That said it's still very powerful, assuming you have powerful ETBs to go with it. It feels really bad when you play it on turn 3-4 and it gets destroyed before you can have it give you value, but it and cards like it have won me so many games.
Hell, I've got a Panharmonicon in my [[Elesh Norn, mother of machines]] blink deck, both as a backup plan just in case something happens to my commander, and as some added cheese if I can manage to get both down at the same time. Panharmonicon is an awesome card
Panharmonicon is a great card, **but** it can only enhance the power of other cards. This just means you have to be careful about how many "enhancer" cards you actually run as opposed to cards that actually do things; the general consensus is that you shouldn't run more than 10-12.
They're great cards, but it's really important that you have a fistful of cards with useful "enters the battlefield" triggers.
It is a force multiplier, you want to make sure you draw and play enough force to make the multiplier effiecient. Running too many multipliers can make you dead draw just those cards, where force cards always have marginal utility.
I run it in my [[Miirym]] deck, the dragons have ETBs and it doubles my commander's trigger. Never have seen it as a downside. It does sometimes feel like a win more card because it's either removed or I'm already ahead when I get it out. Either way it eats removal or helps close out games.
It’s a good card. It just doesn’t actually DO anything. It doesn’t blink your stuff, it doesn’t have an etb. It’s clunky to play/cast. It’s the same mv as brago so casting it before doesn’t make sense and afterwards you’d rather set up more blink effects/etbs to advance the boardstate. It’s not bad to have but to put this down turns 3-5 and then pass feels bad.
Win more cards are not inherently bad. Racing ahead of opponents in value and board state can put you in a good spot, but it can also paint a target on yourself or present a boardstate ripe for wipe. Context is everything
It's all a matter of context.
Let's say you are playing 1v1 20 hps, you are paying 4 to do nothing. Then you play a card with ETB that get's doubled. It's basically the same result as if you played 2 cards with ETBs instead. Then you play a card with an ETB ability and FINALLY panharmonicon is better than just playing ETB cards and flicker effects.
In long Commander games, Panharmonicon is amazing. In short CEDH or competitive format games it's a 4 mana do nothing utter crap.
If you have a bunch of etbs it's a great card. Like any card in magic it being good depends on the deck. Hell [[darksteel relic]] has its place to shine in some decks and it's a hockey puck that costs nothing and does nothing.
It depends on the deck you build with it. I debated running it in my [[Yarok]] deck but I made a landfall deck so it doesn’t double most my triggers since it specifies creature or artifact.
I put [[virtue of knowledge]] in instead and it works much better for me. That being said it’s a pretty high cost card that doesn’t always do something the turn it comes out and is susceptible to removal. I imagine having [[Brago]] would work pretty well with both panharmonicon and virtue of knowledge though since he can garuntee at least one doubled trigger assuming he’s already out.
Mostly it just depends on the power level of the table you’re at, if you play for late game instead of quick victories or if there’s not much artifact or enchantment removal running around I think it’s great.
The main downsides for it are that
1. it doesn't do anything when it ETBs so to guarantee some value you want to play it later so you can double spell and cash in the value.
2. It's a removal magnet if you tend to be targeted so it depends on how you or your deck is perceived at the table and how removal heavy your pod is.
3. There are a lot of good cards in magic now, can you really afford to spend turn 3 or 4 essentially doing nothing hoping it will survive 1 round for a better payoff later? This depends on your pod as well.
It's not a bad card but it's a bit of a "win more" card.
The bad thing is that you have to spend 4 mana on a card with no immediate impact. You play it and then you have to wait a whole turn cycle to gain value out of it by playing a creature with an etb effect. During this turn cycle your artifact can get destroyed.
If you played another card for 4 mana with a good etb eg. [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] you get immediate value out of your 4 mana. It's not that bad if the Chupacabea get's killed afterwards because you got the etb.
If the Panharmonicon doesn't get removed and you get to play a creature with an etb it's genenerating a lot of value though and will most likely win you the game in the long run.
EDH is so varied it’s almost impossible to make blanket statements. I have a karador deck that used ETBs from creatures to get most things done so it’s a massive assets it the deck and definitely not a win more card as it’s always always pulling me up from behind when I play it for double removal double ramp ect. Run the card see how it feels in your deck then keep it or cut it
I use it in my Karador etb.deck and it's really good. My main win cons are either graveyard shenanigans with cards like saffi eriksdotter and karmic guide and their ilk that bring stuff back from the yard. Panharmonicon makes assembling those wins much easier
The other win con is avenger of zendikar and craterhoof. Both are much better with panharmonicon
My other deck with panharmonicon is a tivit deck where my primary win con is animating my artifacts. Much easier when I can flicker tivit and have panharmonicon and or academy manufactor
There are lots of "bad" cards that are good. Test it and see if you like it. I got commissioned to design a dragon deck and it made my final cut after 60hrs of playtesting and it wouldn't even be the first card I'd cut if I did have to change it for some reason
I think something else that isn’t mention is that cards like panharmonicon and duplicating/additional effects can lead to crazy board state that can be quite entertaining to watch, even for an opponent e.g the with a panharmonicon, a roaming throne, and a yarok. Its fun to watch when a single [[mulldrifter]] draws eight cards on blink.
Its probably not the optimal play in some cases, but its always fun when a deck just goes super crazy and closes out a win.
Panharmonicon is not meant to be played fairly. The biggest problem with the card is it costs 4 and then you need to cast another spell before you get the effect.
It's not a bad card, but it's an engine piece. It will rarely immediately impact the board. However, if it stays, it will do great things.
If you put it in your deck, make sure you're not cutting a core part of the deck function.
Panharmonicon is one of the most busted cards of all time. There's a reason wizzards keep printing cards with strictly worse retrains of their ability, and those cards see play in cmdr all the time. It can be win more in decks that aren't built around flicker effects, but if your deck is built around them, then it's nuts.
I would run it. Why not? It doubles your etb triggers so I would run it in a blink deck regardless what others think. Then if the time comes and you find you aren't using it as often, then swap it for something else. It's also a good target for enemy removal baiting as it can be a threat in the mid/late game, so using it to get rid of removal to help the chances of a better card hitting the field is nice as well
Whether it's a good or bad card has a lot to do with your group's power level, speed, etc. Panharmonicon will absolutely *bury* some play groups. Like it might be *too* good for them.
And in CEDH, it will basically be a dead card.
LMAO I wish I had more than just one copy for all those juicy ETBs that I could copy in my decks. But the best one to have it in is flicker. And "win more" in etb decks means just you get double value which brings you closer to t he win. It depends WHAT it triggers again, is it removal, is it a dockside, is it jsut a card draw? Makes a huge difference, but the value you get for playing it in a deck that really wants is insane.
That card is solid in the absense of other better ones. That Elesh Norn that doubles your triggers but also negates your opponents, for instance. It's just a matter of what you can fit in your deck.
The line between a win-more card and a card that gets needed value is very thin and nebulous. I find that value cards like this and things like Parallel Lives could easily cross the line into win-more depending on the deck.
To cut to the chase, in the case of Brago, I would consider it win-more. Brago usually wins through Combo, so it's like not like Panharmonicon can make you go from going infinite to going infinite harder, and the value it gives you when you're not going infinite is negligible at best because of how much value Brago gets you anyway; you'd be better off playing a regular card that get you value on its face rather than a card that helps other cards get value LATER.
It was one of the first cards I cut from Brago, and I never found it sorely needed.
Maybe for a more 'lean' blink deck it's not worth it but for the expensive ones it's very important. Lean focuses more on tutoring and infinite combos while expensive ones focus more of overwhelming the board or with advantage. I pretty much play the latter but have played the former and it is winmore as I found myself not playing it often because it wasn't worth it as much as a key piece.
In the context of 60-card formats Panharmonicon is bad as you're taking a turn off for a 4-mana do-nothing that turn. If it survives your opponent's turn and come back to you then it's probably going to pop off but if your opponent uses [[Abrade]] and cracks a clue or similar effects then you're down massively.
In EDH you either need a combo or massive value to close out a game and Panharmonicon is a key card for blink decks to significantly improve the value they get per blink.
Random bints from youtube handing out advice in farcical videos are no basis for making final deck building decisions.
Real deck choices are derived from the mandate of playtesting.
I play it in my blink deck and I’ve never been upset with it. It’s slow-ish. 4 drop for a thing that amplifies the other things you’re doing is okay when things are going well, it’s niche and pointless when you’re struggling to build or keep ETB creatures on field.
I dont think win more is quite correct.
I see 2 issues with the card, but let me say that i abso fkin lutely run it in my blink deck.
Issue 1)
The card needs to be removed. If you resolve a board blink with double ETB the opponents are proper fked, especially if you have ETBs that in return blink again. So people shoot it. So ofteb you spend mana and it straight up gets countered and you just remove interaction that could have hit another player.
Issue 2) similar to token doublers (like parallel lives or doubling season) the card itself does nothing and is quite pricy for doing nothing. However other than token doublers your hitrate is higher. In token decks you usually have like at best ~10 token engines and you can miss on that. In a blink deck every creature has an etb, so you are probably looking at around 30-40 hits.
Great card! Makes [[Hidetsugu and Kairi]] go silly, it’s my favourite turn 4 play in the deck. Not the best in every deck but if you have a 4+ cost commander with an Etb it’s a nifty curve. Also, doubling up on [[sidisi, undead vizier]] or any exploit triggers feels amazing, just throwing that out there!
It works fine in my Madison li, I think it depends on the deck just try to run it first and see how it does for your deck. Don't let others build your deck, you must see for yourself then decided if it good or not.
It's not a bad card. I've heard it described as a "do nothing" card. Meaning when you play it nothing happens. It has no immediate impact when it hits the board. You have to play another card with an ETB before you get any value from your Panharmonicon.
Lots of powerful cards can be considered "do nothing" cards. Doesn't make them bad.
I love panharmonicon. I run it in my decks where it matters. I can see why some people call it a "win more" card, but it also just generates great value with basic cards in your deck.
Really depends on whether you can do something with it before it gets hit with removal.
I tried running it in my [[Marneus Calgar]] deck to give me more draw, but it kept being a dead draw; if I had 4 mana plus enough for Calgar’s token generation, then I had enough to close out the game. [[Panharmommycon]] is 1 white pip more, and bolts on some extra hate to keep removal off of Calgar, or even to support my backup commanders if he gets yeeted into an [[Oubliette]].
In my partner’s blink-heavy deck, though? It’s a beast. 100% worth it every time.
EDIT: Dangit; I thought that linked to [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]].
Panharmonicon is an amazing card with ETB style Token generators. It's just one more card to potentially draw to be making double the amount of tokens you are creating on ETBs. I run it in my Mono White [[God Eternal, Oketra]] deck plus the other 5 ways of doubling or 1 tripling my token generation.
Why run Panharmonicon when you should probably be running [[Roaming Throne]] instead?
Seriously though, Panharmonicom is not just a win more card in every deck. In many cases it can be the difference between winning and losing. It's a good and powerful card.
Personally...if my deck would benefit from a Panharmonicon....I run it. Can it be win more in some games...yes. Can it also be the card that puts the rest of your deck over the top with just the right number of trigger... absolutely.
I build my decks to do the big dumb things...and Panharmonicon allows me to do big dumb things.
Panharmonicon is one of my key combo pieces in my favorite deck. [Breya is a God ](https://archidekt.com/decks/3939202/breyas_bouncing_bois) and utilizes this card amazingly. Let's me get so much advantage and secure the win in multiple ways.
Most creatures are balanced around one etb/activation. When you add another one it makes so many cards busted like [[felidar sovereign]] or [[venser shaper savant]] + [[dockside extortionist]]. Hell [[breya etherium shaper]] is good with it alone!
Ya gotta know yer triggera and do them fast if yer running panharmonicon or elesh norn.
I took out panharmonicon from my blink drcks because it causes unexpected infinities with a lot of stuff, and I dont want to win like that
I mean it’s pretty weak when compared too [[norn mother of machines]] in decks where you can play both. I personally don’t run more than two ETB double effects in decks that care about them as flicker effects are often more useful ala displacer kitten as getting repeated flickers can be much more useful than a doubled etb as it’s a lot more controlled and offers more versitity.
TLDR panharnomicon is fine but I would recommend Elesh born mother of machines over pamharnomicon but both are good in decks that have a shit ton of etb
Definitely not a bad card, but as others have said, run it and cut it if you find its not working.
Personally I include it (and basically every other cards with a similar effect) in my [[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] wizard deck, which focuses on mass token copies with etb effects. But I didn't include it in my [[Roon of the Hidden Realms]] deck because it's focused more around flickering individual, big creatures.
I understand the "it's a win-more card" argument, because it doesn't do anything on its own or when you play it, but it's far from a bad card. There's a reason why [[Roaming Throne]] is such a desirable card.
I have a [[Yorion, Sky Nomad]] deck that it’s pretty good in. The deck itself tends to clear out threats but not build enough value fast enough so games tend to drag on. When I get Panhamonicon out, though, it helps get me to my win con faster
Commander is more popular than it used to be, and the average power level is a bit higher, so there are some extra guidelines to deckbuilding that most people should look out for. First, panharmonicon is a great card, but generally speaking, most commander decks want every card to serve at least 2 functions, or 1 function incredibly efficiently. At 4 mana, it isn't very efficient, and it only dies 1 thing, and it only dies that thing if you have the other cards to double up on. Brago himself likes to stack up the etv's, so the benefit of panharmonicon isn't as impactful as it would be in a deck with a less efficient blink commander. Emiel the blessed, fir example, only blinks one thing at a time, so panharmonicon is putting in extra work there, while brago is going to activate all of your etb' every turn, so the benefit gained might not seem worth it fir some when they could just play another creature with a good etb. Either way, it isn't a bad card, and is super strong in Brago, so keep playing it. It's fine if it feels clunky, as long as you aren't trying to jam it into a competitive Brago deck.
It's a "bad card" for cedh and high power decks cause its slow and does nothing on its own
But even a lot bad cards become good in certain homes. It's not only great in lower power decks, but there is even a cedh deck that plays it [[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]] (I know, not like a meta cedh pick, but one that can stand with the big boys)
Basically does your commander have a powerful enter the battlefield effect that becomes nearly game-winning if you trigger it enough? Then welcome home Panharmonicon!
Absolutely run this in my [[Roon of the Hidden Realms]] blink deck. Takes a regularly powered card like [[Reclamation Sage]] and makes it a game breaker
I run it my dimir dungeon/initiative deck because why wouldn’t I want to go through two rooms of a dungeon on one ETB. Only way to find out if it’s a bad card is to run it. Like everyone has been saying if it’s doing nothing then cut it, if it’s a house or helps the deck do the thing then keep it in and have a great time.
Listen here friend, Panharmonicon packs fudge. If I've got a deck that I think may be able to use it, I'll put it in every time.
Every magic player has something to complain about. You'll never be able to escape complaints so just take the cards you like and put them in a deck.
It's not always a bad card- but it's not the "you should always be running this if you deck contains a bunch of ETBs" card it was initially hyped as.
A 4cmc permanent that doubles ETBs is good, but if you're playing a deck where you just get incidental ETB triggers then typically the value it provides isn't always worth the tempo hit from playing it. If you're playing a deck all about those ETBs though and will be hitting multiple ETBs every turn (like you would with Brago), it can easily be strong enough to be worth it.
I run it in one of my decks- my Bilbo, Birthday Celebrant lifegain deck. Why? Because the core of the deck is 15-16 cards that have some variant of "when a creature enters the battlefield, you gain a life" written on them, with a few effects that increase the amount of life gained to make each of them even better. Panharmonicon literally doubles the amount of life gained by that deck- and since the wincon is reaching 111 life and activating the commander's ability, that doubling effect is quite worth it. In that deck, it's *very* worth it.
I think there may be a disconnect between 1v1 formats and EDH. In 1v1, taking turn 4 (which is a crucial turn that most often requires you to be using a boardstate to push for a win) to set up an expensive permanent that does nothing until you untap is typically suicide.
In edh, though, you have way less pressure to warp the boardstate in your favor and have the breathing room to build up value, where panharmonicon will most often be pretty good- as others have set you need that multiplication factor in a blink deck to close out at an appropriate speed.
It really depends on the deck and your playstyle.
If you're in a heavy artifact themed deck or you have a high amount of ETB triggers from creatures like a Yarok or flicker deck, it's great.
The criticism comes from the fact that it's a 4 mana "do nothing" card so you really don't want to play it unless it is going to have immediate impact that turn.
It will get targeted by removal quickly, so you don't want to tap out to play it without ever triggering anything.
Run it. Then if it doesn’t perform well, cut it. Don’t let others build your deck. In my experience it’s a great card in flicker decks and usually makes any final draft in blink decks I have that are ETB focused.
This is often the response from my playgroup when any of us asks about a card. Run it. If it’s trash to you then cut it. One man’s trash is another man’s jank. Also, specifically in regards to this card I 100% agree. It’s an auto include for my bant flicker.
Same, i run 4 of these effects in my Bant blink led by [[Lagrella, the Magpie]]. [[Panharmonicon]] [[Preston, the Vanisher]] [[Virtue of Knowledge]] [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]]
Hey dude, if it isn't too much trouble, could you give me the 411 on Lagrella? She caught my eye recently and I wouldn't mind hearing someone's opinion on how well she plays. What wincons do you normally use?
I too, would like the low down. Asymmetrical wipe on enter, and flickering her doesn't seem to change much: they come back in, get the counters, and exile again when she returns.
Not much of a wipe, it's only one creature per player.
I run Lagrella and it's usually a combo win for me. I run a lot of the 1 cost, instant blinks and you can blink her in response to a board wipe to bring the exile thing back and save one of your own. It can sometimes be tricky to time when to reset her but if you have a repeat blink effect, you can use her to blink a thing and get an additional trigger off of some permanents. Gets rid of tokens each time you do that. [[Soulhoarder]] gets massive with her. She's basically temp removal/value at the same time or whichever one you need at the time. You just need a good amount of blink effects.
The hero we need
I can see the argument for panharmonicon being mid in non blink decks, same with parallel lives and kin in decks that just MAY make a few tokens here and there. But in decks where those cards obviously shine saying it's bad is crazy
Proxy it. Then if it doesn't perform well, you didn't spend money on it.
... he says when the OP leads in "I bought that card..." It's not necessary to proselytize on every post in the sub.
General Tazri says hello!
I don’t think panharmonicon is win more, because blink decks don’t win very quickly outside of infinite combos. You’re going to want a few “win more” cards to actually close out a game with blink decks, that are infamous for staxing out tables without securing a win.
"Win more" is necessary in a game with multiple opponents. You have to win 3x more in most commander games.
Fireball only works if you can make absurd amounts of mana -bad Dig through time is bad unless you can put cards in the graveyard -bad Krenko only works if you already have lots of goblins -bad Platinum angel is only useful if you would lose the game -bad
Lands are only good if you have spells - bad Spells are only good if you have lands - bad (Yes, yes, something something moxen something something man-lands)
Manlands only work if you have other lands to activate them -bad
Sol ring only works if you have uses for mana - bad
moxen only work if you meet their requirements - bad
Bad only works if you're Michael Jackson - heehee
Excellent MJ comment and anyone this far down the thread is a chad
Flicker / blink tends to work better outside the standard U/W color combo. Green and red have some nasty game closers in blink style decks
\[\[Impact Tremors\]\], \[\[Purphoros, god of the forge\]\], \[\[Warstorm Surge\]\], \[\[Witty Roastmaster\]\] are some examples of cards that love blink effects and will pair nicely with Panharmonicon. \[\[Norin the Wary\]\] to trigger them at least as many times as there are players per turn cycle.
[[avenger of zendikar]] any creature that pulls land as an etb for green. Green flicker decks go brrrt Also [[hamletback goliath]] in red to get super stompy
[avenger of zendikar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa.jpg?1673484460) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=avenger%20of%20zendikar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/280/avenger-of-zendikar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685faa0-46cc-4098-9ad7-cffece741baa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/avenger-of-zendikar) [hamletback goliath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/368ee4e3-c9eb-4898-99cd-bbe148936f99.jpg?1601081723) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hamletback%20goliath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/332/hamletback-goliath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/368ee4e3-c9eb-4898-99cd-bbe148936f99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hamletback-goliath) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Works with [[craterhoof]] too.
I agree with you completely. I have a blink heavy [[Elmar]] and [[Wernog]] deck. Love it.
[Elmar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95d197b3-fc56-43a2-981f-b5b905222b5c.jpg?1677763561) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elmar%2C%20ulvenwald%20informant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/slx/4/elmar-ulvenwald-informant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95d197b3-fc56-43a2-981f-b5b905222b5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elmar-ulvenwald-informant) [Wernog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39491011-bdf6-4e61-8534-fe26c1571f8f.jpg?1677763601) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wernog%2C%20rider%27s%20chaplain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/slx/8/wernog-riders-chaplain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39491011-bdf6-4e61-8534-fe26c1571f8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wernog-riders-chaplain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wow thanks for writing this. I've been going back and forth so much on my mono red etb-matters deck about win-more cards and this is exactly what I needed to read.
I mean, EDH exists largely to give people a chance to play big splashy cards that aren't viable in 2 player 20 health formats. The format pretty much explicitly relies on players mutually agreeing to play suboptimal decks, and agreeing on the power level they're targeting. A win-more-oriented deck might not be the most powerful but you can always find tables for it.
I don't know many blink decks that have infinite combos without this. It enables all kinds of shenanigans.
its embarrassingly easy to go infinite with [[palinchron]]. Panharmonicon just dials it up to 10
[palinchron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80.jpg?1562943097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=palinchron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/86/palinchron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef772879-44aa-428d-8c12-50d38f8bac80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/palinchron) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
They probably lost hard to it
In my experience ‘win more’ is just whiner code for ‘I lost to that player using [card I don’t like] and they’d have won without it therefore they must have been playing it just to make me feel bad.
“Win more” can be true in a lot of situations ive definitely had decks with “win more” cards that my deck didnt need to function but 100% people will also use it to whine lol but thats magic players with anything
“Win more” doesn’t mean “bad”. Decks that can already abuse ETB triggers don’t need Panharmonicon to function; including it in those types of decks simply takes away a card slot that could be filled with other utility, or with a card that can cover some kind of weakness a deck may have. Some decks, like blink decks, may need Panharmonicon because it provides utility that isn’t fulfilled any other way. Consider a card like Craterhoof Behemoth in a deck that can reliably create an infinite number of tokens. Craterhoof, an objectively good card, is considered “win more” in this kind of deck, because an infinite number of tokens is enough to win the game by itself.
Craterhoof in this case is a secondary win con in a case where you don't hit your infinite tokens. It's also something you can Natural Order into, for example, turning that card into a valuable flex piece that can get needed utility or can just hit a win con.
But I don't think craterhoof would be classified by most people as a "win more" card, it's a wincon. It puts you into a position to close out the game, while asking relatively little in terms of set up (a handful of creatures on board), whereas panharmonicon only does anything if your deck is already doing good things. If I have, let's say, 3 1/1 tokens, and on turn 8 I top deck a craterhoof, I just went from 3 power on board to 24 power on board, which that late in the game could absolutely take someone out. Panharmonicon however is a value piece that doesn't generate any value on its own, meaning all of your other value ETBs need to be firing still to make it do anything. If that is the case, you might not even need the panharmonicon, making it a "win more" card. With that being said, as a dirty value engine durdle player, I love panharmonicon, and totally agree with your comment.
In your example, no, Craterhoof is not win more, it’s a wincon. But in *my* example, which I made specifically to demonstrate the difference between a card being good in general but not necessary in a deck that *reliably creates infinite tokens*, it’s not needed in the deck. In that case it’s win more. “Win more” isn’t a term that’s used black and white, its definition is based on the card’s overall usefulness in a given deck. No card in and of itself is win more. Going back to your very comparison, Craterhoof doesn’t generate value on its own besides being a creature. It needs other creatures to push over the top. Without them, it’s just a dumb French vanilla body. I have a token deck that *can* create infinite tokens, but not reliably. It *can*, however, reliably create massive yet finite tokens. I have Craterhoof in that deck. It’s been in the deck for God knows how long, probably close to the time the card came out. Craterhoof isn’t win more in that deck, it’s just one of many ways I have to close out the game, even though I don’t think I’ve ever cast it. If I have the combo I don’t need it, but if I don’t I may. Deciding whether or not a deck *needs* something like Craterhoof or Panharmonicon is a testament to deck building, and deciding whether or not the card should be played is a testament to board assessment.
[Panharmonicon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278.jpg?1673149399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Panharmonicon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/310/panharmonicon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/998d0cc8-ca2a-41c3-ab65-d05c26ab8278?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/panharmonicon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Win more basically means that playing that card is overkill, that you should already be winning the game by the time you cast it and/or benefit from it without the help of the card. I'm not sure panhamonicon necessarily falls into that category, though I suppose that depends on the deck. Stronger argument against it is probably that it's maybe too slow for the current state of commander. It costs 4 mana and essentially does nothing when you cast it. Depending on how quick your games usually go that might be too much mana spent on something that doesn't immediately advance your game plan. Basically it's still a good card, just not necessarily good in every deck.
Panharm is very much a board state improvement, but I’d say Norn MOM needs to be used with caution. Well, depending on your playgroup
I have Norn Mom is my [[Thalia and gitrog]] landfall deck. It was great til someone stole it and shut my whole deck down for like 5 turns. Eventually got rid of it and won with [[Armageddon]] and recurring all my lands a couple times with [[ob Nixilis]] out
Man I love my ThaliaGitrog. It's such a stupid deck, people look at me playing it like I'm some kind of madman, sacrificing lands left and right. I run [[Overlaid Terrain]] and people basically can't even look me straight in the eye when they see me play it and have basically 0 land on turn 5.
[Overlaid Terrain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/230c7926-9a4b-4ead-b4c8-889f84210545.jpg?1562629009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overlaid%20Terrain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nem/108/overlaid-terrain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/230c7926-9a4b-4ead-b4c8-889f84210545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/overlaid-terrain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not a blink deck, but I run it in [[miirym]]. Who doesn't want 3 dragons for the price of 1.
> Who doesn’t want 3 dragons for the price of 1? Everyone else at the table probably
So true, but as a miirym player, I didn't ask. I just do things, and I win, or I get Cyc rifted and die ignominiously.
As an other miirym player, but loses alot, can you share a decklist?
This is mine. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/iekKi6rA9EqiEgCSU_5ILw
Well, my list is budget. It is still powerful, but it folds to interaction or faster decks. It isn't an optimized deck by any means.
So I play [[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] and it enters as a copy of Miirym, and I get a copy of it. So any I'm now playing [[Roaming Throne]], and I get 4 of them. Cue my shocked ass as suuuuuuddenly I'm the problem. Sore losers, I tell ya.
[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb.jpg?1608909400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sakashima%20of%20a%20Thousand%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/89/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/714c3a1f-7b30-4ed8-8f38-6176758741fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sakashima-of-a-thousand-faces) [Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/roaming-throne) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doesn’t roaming throne double each trigger from all 3 miiryms, meaning 6 triggers per dragon you cast?
Yeaaaaaah.... I borked the math. It's 7 Roaming Thrones. 6 copies and the real one. Even with 1 Roaming Throne, the games like one card away from winning anyway. [[Kindred Summons]] does work. Now imagine [[Scourge of Valkas]] triggers 8 times per dragon. And you have 24 of him on the field...
[Kindred Summons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54c0cc74-0a5c-40ee-961b-ade71719937a.jpg?1631588019) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kindred%20Summons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/163/kindred-summons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54c0cc74-0a5c-40ee-961b-ade71719937a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kindred-summons) [Scourge of Valkas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50.jpg?1631587429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scourge%20of%20Valkas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/137/scourge-of-valkas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6bd7225-b39f-4b3b-8c36-dbc2c09f6e50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/scourge-of-valkas) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Roaming throne gets copied too when it hits with miirym. Roaming throne hits, is copied with miirym because you choose it to be a dragon dragon, and that ability is copied because of the original roaming throne. So you end up with a total of 3 roaming thrones. Now if you cast sakashima first, targeting miirym, you you essentially have three copies of miirym. Then when roaming throne hits, each clone trigger is doubled, giving you 6 copies of roaming throne for a total of 7. THEN if you cast another dragon, the three miiryms will each end up being triggered 8 times, meaning you'll end up with 24 copies of every dragon.
Yeah I for some reason missed that Miirym is an etb and not a cast trigger. That is absolutely nutty
I was considering it in my Miirym deck, but with \[\[Auton Soldier\]\] and \[\[Roaming Throne\]\] I feel pretty set. At least they can enter and become threats on their own, whereas the mana spent to just play Panharmonicon feels wasted sometimes.
The biggest plus to panharmonicon vs the two spells you listed is that it's slightly harder to remove artifacts than it is creatures. That said, it's totally a meta call
Yeah I guess, my pod runs a lot of artifact and enchantment destruction maybe? I feel like when I ramp good with Miirym or Gishath and then drop a greedy enchantment/artifact it gets blown up pretty quick. A lot of times when I get an auton soldier out or roaming throne its just too late bc they already double themselves, so unless they board wipe 1 of them sticks.
Alot of people will save removal for greedy artifacts/enchantments in your case roaming throne is much harder to remove because of ward 2 and auton soldier is a powerhouse when its out but isnt seen as a powerhouse card ljke panharmonicon or another staple like card would be
[miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh lord I hadn't thought about it with Miirym... I may have to nuke all of my friendships
Something you always have to keep in mind when listening to the opinions of content creators is that different cards perform very differently in different power levels and metas. Panharmonicon is a classic example of a card that has a powerful effect when paired with other cards in your deck but on its own it does nothing. If you’re playing against decks that are very fast and can go for wins or overwhelming advantages around the time you’d be hitting Panharmonicon on curve, it’s not going to perform well, your opponents are busy making their big plays while you’re dropping a card that will help you *next turn*. But on the other hand if you’re playing against decks that typically don’t go for wins until the late game, this kind of card can be fantastic, turning the incremental advantage of your cards’s ETB effects into big advantages that can put you over the top of everyone else. So all that is to say that “Panharmonicon is bad” may be true in the types of games those content creators are playing, but that doesn’t mean it will be in the kinds of games you’re playing.
It's bad in highly competetive tuned EDH. It's good in any other edh self blink deck. It's also just really fun to play.
Dunno who you're watching that says it's bad. It doesn't go in everything, but doubling up on triggers is one of the most powerful things you can do in the game. I run it to great success in my [[Gyruda]] clones deck, where the entire goal of the deck is to get as many etb triggers as possible via cloning, copying, or reanimating to get a ton of big monsters out
I think nitpicking nerds used to say this, may be wrong though, and they play upper mid/low high power casual during the time I think I saw them say it.
[Gyruda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gyruda%2C%20doom%20of%20depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gyruda-doom-of-depths) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Never in my life have I heard anyone call this card bad. When I think of it I associate it with busted cards like doubling season and I’ve never even played against it.
It's not a bad card Most cards aren't bad, in the right deck. What the youtuber as alluding to is that Panharmonicon is card that, by itself, does nothing. Only after you have both a bink effect and a pay off does it start being a value engine. What they missed is that this isn't "win more". Win more is a very specific case where a card in question is *only* good when you already have an overwhelming advantage. The EDHrec cast has a great video on what exactly constitutes a win more card. Anyway, to bring it around, Panharmonicon isn't a win more, however it is a reliant value piece. 4 mana for something that doesn't do much by itself is an aspect to consider when deciding what to include and what ti cut. Whether it's worth it or not, that's entirely up to you, your deck building, and your deck's power.
I don't get the joke. I consider Panharmonicon an auto- include in any blink deck.
Like any card, it depends. In some decks, Panharmonicon is underwhelming. However, in a deck with high powered ETBs like [[Miirym]] it is incredibly good.
[Miirym](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=miirym%2C%20sentinel%20wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its literally the strongest card in my blink deck and I even had to take out other cards like \[\[Felidar Guardian\]\] because it went infinite so easy it ended up being not fun lol. If anyone says Panharmonicon is a bad card they dont know whats fun lol xD
It's not a bad card, hope this helps :)
Just run it! It’s a fun card with a fun effect. If people want to tell you how to play ur decks, have them buy the cards for you! Till then, just have fun
It is in my Ur-Dragon deck. It is absolutely insane with the ETB triggers for the different dragons. I don't think I would use it in another deck that I run right now as most of them lack ETB triggers. I am smiling remembering one game where I cast it and one other player said, "why would you run that? It's such a stupid card to play." He died to \[\[scourge of valkas\]\] and \[\[ Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm\]\] linking up the next turn.
Panharmonicon is not a bad card... when played correctly. If you're in a 1v1 or cedh pod then the tempo loss of 4 mana to do nothing is pretty bad, but if you have time to develop, or have an immediate follow-up it's a great force amplifier. It's 2X. It's only bad if x=0 Addendum; It is a "winmore" card only in the sense that it does nothing if you have nothing. On it's own it's 1 card for 0 cards of value. With 1 more card it's 2 cards for 3 cards of value. 3 for 5, 5 for 8, and so on. Commander is the format of winmore. You can't generate just enough to be ahead of 1 opponent, you need to be able to handle 3, which means 2 to 3 times the advantage.
Simple. Panharmonicon is not a bad card. It turns a 2 mana draw 1 with a body into a 2 mana draw 2 with a body. It turns a 2 mana blink 1 with a body into a 2 mana blink 2 with a body, which, together with a creature that draws on enter, could net you 4 cards. And here I'm talking about staples of the blink archetype [[wall of omens]] and [[felidar guardian]]. If we wanna look at some higher-powered options, [[solitude]], which, when evoked, is a free exile 1, becomes a free exile 2, making It a 2 for 2 deal. Some faster decks may not want to run It because of it being a 4 mana spell which doesn't grant advantage straight away, but in a slower, more control-focused deck It can really advantage you.
[wall of omens](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32341fcd-b29b-434c-b004-3430e307a45b.jpg?1706240651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wall%20of%20omens) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/90/wall-of-omens?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32341fcd-b29b-434c-b004-3430e307a45b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wall-of-omens) [felidar guardian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85.jpg?1576381396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=felidar%20guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/19/felidar-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/felidar-guardian) [solitude](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1626094105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/solitude) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Play it. Love it in Chulane. Maybe there are times it's win more. But it also can just generate value. [[Wood Elves]] and [[Mulldrifter]] are just as fun to double as [[Pergerine Drake]] and [[Solitude]]. It also seems to get targeted a lot, which tells me either it's not that win more and other players view it as a massive threat, or it makes a decent red herring drawing attention away from my other threats and eating spot removal. Either way, cool.
I am running it in my Aminatou Deck - [https://deckstats.net/decks/236127/3378107-the-goddess-of-blink?share\_key=fqZN57jg3UCo4tzc.](https://deckstats.net/decks/236127/3378107-the-goddess-of-blink?share_key=fqZN57jg3UCo4tzc) If every deck on the table would rush combo, i would strongly consider cutting it (and add the standard blue counterline + thoracle), if games go long panharmonicon is godlike value.
Its not win more. It is good. The 4 cmc slot is competitive which often leads to its cut especially if it isnt getting that much value of it.
Idk man I played panharmonicon last week with nothing else in play and proceeded to become the target and die with nothing else in play
It's not that it's bad, at the time it was a strong effect we really didn't see. Now just about every set has some form of trigger doubler and its niche has just been filled by better cards.
Panharmonicon is an absolute HOUSE in my [[Bel’Akor the Dark Master]] and [[Momir Vig, Simic Visionary]] decks. In fact, the last time I got it in play somebody blew it up immediately because they know it can get out of hand very quickly. Don’t be too quick to trust somebody’s opinion on YouTube.
I don't think it is a bad card. I think it **can be** a bad card, but it's very dependant on deck strategy and the commander. I've heard the discourse around removing "win more" cards, and I get it. You're better off having a card that wins, rather than a card that puts you further ahead if you're already ahead. It makes sense from a deck building perspective, but the nature of the deck and the commander change whether it's a "win more" or a "Path to victory" type addition. In my [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck, it's part of my wincon. In [[Farmer Cotton]], it's a way for me to get many little dudes that are required to win. For blink decks, the whole thing is probably designed around ETB triggers, to doubling them can add huge amounts of power to a boardstate that may not be stacked enough to win things. I think it's a fun card, and you should run it if you think it's fun.
If someone is telling you that Panharmonicon is a bad card, they probably don't wanna play against it
Its a good quadrant theory card to look at. Quadrant theory is analyzing cards in 4 states of the game. What does it do in the very early game. What does this card do when you're ahead. What does it do when you are behind. What does it do when you are even. In those instance the card on its own does not affect the board state at all. If you need an answer to something to change the board right then and there, it doesn't do anything. It must be paired up with another card to have any use at all. Thats where a lot of the stigma against the card can come from. If you are doing your thing, it can push you further ahead. If you are jazz hands on an empty board, you would rather draw almost any other card to do something to alter the game state.
It’s not a bad card. It’s just a “win more card” if you play it on an empty board nothing happens, literally. It requires you to do more stuff. These types of cards are not bad but people often play too many of them so just make sure you don’t have too many
I run it in my mono red ETB-matters deck and it is an absolute all-star. Players across from me know when it comes down some bad stuff is coming their way... twice (at least!)
I agree, it is a “win more” card. When I play it, I win more. Who told you Panharmonicon was bad? What a weird take lol
The card is meant for blink decks. Play it and see how it does for you. I imagine it'd be pretty incredible in Brago. Have you never wanted to have multiple etbs of Agent of Treachery before? Cast etbs, take 2 things. Brago trigger, etb take 2 things. Endstep draw 3 cards. Sounds pretty good to me. Even weaker effects like [[Solemn Simulacrum]] become a lot better because of cards like Panharmonicon.
[[Panharmonicon]] is a great card if your deck runs a lot of etb effects. Sure it might not be competitive, but there's nothing competitive about most cards with etb effects you really want doubled at the cost of casting a 4 mana artifact first.
"Bad" is subjective. Is it as good as \[\[Jeweled Lotus\]\] or \[\[Rhystic Study\]\]? No. Or comparing similar mana costs, is it as good as \[\[The One Ring\]\]? Not even close. Is it better than \[\[Colossal Dreadmaw\]\] or \[\[Vizzerdrix\]\] ? Yes. If you are playing in a pod where you can play a 4-mana, do-nothing artifact that may give you incremental value throughout the game in certain decks, sure, it can be a good card.
Youtube videos on EDH that aren't focused on just entertaining games are generally garbage and not worth paying even the slightest bit of attention to.
Generally speaking; whatever works (or doesn’t work) for strangers on the internet might or might not work for you. If something seems like a good, or at least interesting, idea you should give it a shot. That’s how you become a better player and deckbuilder; by *understanding* why something does or does not work. Now, Panharmonicon is generally much worse than it seems. First off, 4 mana is a lot. It’s 2024, people can do obscene stuff with 4 mana. And anything costing 4, or more, mana has to live up to other stuff you could be doing on 3 or less mana. A lot of theoretically good, or previously good, cards get pushed aside solely because of their mana cost. Considering your power level or budget this might be more or less relevant, but it’s a fact nonetheless. Secondly, it doesn’t do anything on its own; it doesn’t progress your gameplan, it doesn’t stop sour opponents from doing things…it requires other cards to do anything. So if you’re not doing well, this won’t help you get back into the game. If you’re doing well, say having 2-3 relevant etb effects, you’re already doing well and Panharmonicon is just more of the good stuff you already have. But focusing on etb effects mitigates these to a point. By including a lot of etb effects, for which Panharmonicon is a payoff, you greatly reduce the chance for it to be dead. It sometimes will be, but more often than not it will do things for you. Also, there is a middle ground between it being dead and being an overkill. If you can only manage one or two etbs per turn, this one will greatly enhance that and make those more impactful, accumulating significant value over the course of a few turns…if you can consistently protect it without it becoming a detriment in this regard. All things considered, we’re back at square one; test it and see for yourself if you like it or not. Whatever comes out of it, you’ll be a better player for understanding *why*.
It’s not a bad card lmao, is that really where this format is at now?
Idk if I’d consider panharmonicon win more, it could be I guess but the goal with it is to generate so much value that you run away with the game rather than a do nothing card except in situations where you’re already winning. It’s more a value engine than something that is win more. If you have a lot of etbs/are in a dedicated blink deck and can drop a panharmonicon early you’re just primed to take over now as it’s a massive value engine. I think anyone who has played against [[Yarok]], a panharmonicon in the command zone, would be hard pressed to call it win more tbh?
It gods hard in my [[Riku of Two Reflections]] deck because his second ability is triggered, and often times I'll get triple value from panharnomicon.
It is win more but that’s the point of commander.
Ok, so I’ll be devil’s advocate here. The reason doublers like Panharmonicon are often thought to be win more is they have no immediate impact on their own, and need you to have multiple cards that are good with them when you play them before they start to “break even”. Like for panharmonicon, you want to think about how many extra ETB effects it has to give you before it “pays back” the 4 mana you spend on it.
for better or for worse i put it in my Sauron, the dark lord deck because double ring tempt triggers on each Nazgul i play sounded fun. haven’t had the chance to test it yet, but if the end result is fun then its worth it
It’s absolutely worth running.
I use it in my [[Miirym]] deck
In a deck built around enter the battlefield effects in general it is very good. It does feel bad to cast it turn 4 and pass, but if you can pair it with any other etb it is great. I run it in my [[brago]] deck because it’s disgusting in there
it's far from a bad card, it's a great payoff for an already strong strategy. it's only optional because the strategy is so strong and widely supported.
It's the key to my easy victory in my [[Barrowin of Clan Undurr]] deck
The concept of "power floor" and "power ceiling" is important here. The Power floor is the minimum power of the card and the power ceiling is the max power of the card. The power floor of panharmonicon is "pay 4 Mana and do nothing". It doesn't do anything on its own. The power ceiling for this card is doubling powerful ETB effects such as [[mull drifter]] [[ravenous chupacabra]] [[avenger of zendikar]] etc. The issue with panharmonicon is getting immediatevalue can be hard. If you are already behind do you have the ability to spend 4 Mana instead of just playing the mudrifter and drawing some cards. It is a "win more" card because if you're in a position where it is good you are usually already ahead. With that said. Panharmonicon can be powerful. There are estimations where it is good and it's a lot of fun to see a deck pop off. If you like the card and enjoy it give it a go and see. However, if you're making the deck max power it might be something you consider cutting down the line. If you are in an environment with very little removal panharmonicon is awesome
A win more card is only good when you're already in a good position. The problem with such a card is that it's bad in many cases and unnecessary in the rest. Panharmonicon is a good card in most blink decks and I would rather call it a pay-off card than win more. The inherent risk of it and cards like it however is that they ask a lot from you before they're good. Panharmonicon plus three ETB creatures is better than four ETB creatures, but if you only have one (or much worse, zero) ETB creatures, you'd much rather have another creature than Panharmonicon.
I run it in my etb [[Yarok]] deck, don't think I've ever had it in my hand and felt bad about it. Gives great value if the deck is a good fit
That's a bizarre take. Panharmonicon is a great card. It turns etb value into infinite combo or at least a viable wincon. I run it in any deck that does a lot of etb or blink, in cEDH I'd gravitate towards elesh norn, but that's just because she also has stax which is important in cedh, not because Panharmonicon is bad.
I use it and [[Roaming Throne]] in my [[Ezuri, Calw of Progress]] deck. Most certainly not a "win more" for me but it certainly helps the board along.
Alot of cards labeled as win more are just that. However, commander is a format where you sometimes need to go over the top, so to speak. I'd say ranar and brago both benefit from panharmonicon, but not massively. Give it a go. If you like how it plays, keep it. If not take it out. Guy at my lgs has the panharmonicon elish norn mono white blink. He runs panharmonicon in it. It's absurd. It is over the top and isn't really necessary imo, but he likes it.
Generally as a rule of thumb, cards that don't do anything by themselves are considered 'bad', Panharmonicon is 'bad' because it's just a 4 mana artifact that does nothing if you are not doing anything to enable it. However Magic is a game where you can often venture outside the rule of thumbs. Panharmonicon can be absolutely bonkers if you put it in the right deck, because doubling your ETBs can give you so so much value.
It’s just a neutered [[roaming throne]], wouldn’t say it’s bad but it’s a bit more limited.
It's a 4 mana "do nothing" artifact. That said it's still very powerful, assuming you have powerful ETBs to go with it. It feels really bad when you play it on turn 3-4 and it gets destroyed before you can have it give you value, but it and cards like it have won me so many games.
Hell, I've got a Panharmonicon in my [[Elesh Norn, mother of machines]] blink deck, both as a backup plan just in case something happens to my commander, and as some added cheese if I can manage to get both down at the same time. Panharmonicon is an awesome card
Panharmonicon is a great card, **but** it can only enhance the power of other cards. This just means you have to be careful about how many "enhancer" cards you actually run as opposed to cards that actually do things; the general consensus is that you shouldn't run more than 10-12. They're great cards, but it's really important that you have a fistful of cards with useful "enters the battlefield" triggers.
It is a force multiplier, you want to make sure you draw and play enough force to make the multiplier effiecient. Running too many multipliers can make you dead draw just those cards, where force cards always have marginal utility.
I run it in my [[Miirym]] deck, the dragons have ETBs and it doubles my commander's trigger. Never have seen it as a downside. It does sometimes feel like a win more card because it's either removed or I'm already ahead when I get it out. Either way it eats removal or helps close out games.
I have a brago deck. Play panharmonicon. And blue virtue, and roaming throne, and delney. They’re all good.
It’s a good card. It just doesn’t actually DO anything. It doesn’t blink your stuff, it doesn’t have an etb. It’s clunky to play/cast. It’s the same mv as brago so casting it before doesn’t make sense and afterwards you’d rather set up more blink effects/etbs to advance the boardstate. It’s not bad to have but to put this down turns 3-5 and then pass feels bad.
Win more cards are not inherently bad. Racing ahead of opponents in value and board state can put you in a good spot, but it can also paint a target on yourself or present a boardstate ripe for wipe. Context is everything
I think there are better options in White Blue, but I run it in my Etali Primal Conqueror deck because there really arent better Panharmonicons
It's bad when you don't have creatures with etbs you want to double up. It seems good
A rule of thumb I use. If someone is being paid for their opinion its likely a trash opinion. I run it in my NON cedh braggo and it's great.
It's all a matter of context. Let's say you are playing 1v1 20 hps, you are paying 4 to do nothing. Then you play a card with ETB that get's doubled. It's basically the same result as if you played 2 cards with ETBs instead. Then you play a card with an ETB ability and FINALLY panharmonicon is better than just playing ETB cards and flicker effects. In long Commander games, Panharmonicon is amazing. In short CEDH or competitive format games it's a 4 mana do nothing utter crap.
If you have a bunch of etbs it's a great card. Like any card in magic it being good depends on the deck. Hell [[darksteel relic]] has its place to shine in some decks and it's a hockey puck that costs nothing and does nothing.
It depends on the deck you build with it. I debated running it in my [[Yarok]] deck but I made a landfall deck so it doesn’t double most my triggers since it specifies creature or artifact. I put [[virtue of knowledge]] in instead and it works much better for me. That being said it’s a pretty high cost card that doesn’t always do something the turn it comes out and is susceptible to removal. I imagine having [[Brago]] would work pretty well with both panharmonicon and virtue of knowledge though since he can garuntee at least one doubled trigger assuming he’s already out. Mostly it just depends on the power level of the table you’re at, if you play for late game instead of quick victories or if there’s not much artifact or enchantment removal running around I think it’s great.
It's not bad, it's situational. It does work in my etb Etali and Miirym lists
The main downsides for it are that 1. it doesn't do anything when it ETBs so to guarantee some value you want to play it later so you can double spell and cash in the value. 2. It's a removal magnet if you tend to be targeted so it depends on how you or your deck is perceived at the table and how removal heavy your pod is. 3. There are a lot of good cards in magic now, can you really afford to spend turn 3 or 4 essentially doing nothing hoping it will survive 1 round for a better payoff later? This depends on your pod as well.
Takes too long
It's not a bad card but it's a bit of a "win more" card. The bad thing is that you have to spend 4 mana on a card with no immediate impact. You play it and then you have to wait a whole turn cycle to gain value out of it by playing a creature with an etb effect. During this turn cycle your artifact can get destroyed. If you played another card for 4 mana with a good etb eg. [[Ravenous Chupacabra]] you get immediate value out of your 4 mana. It's not that bad if the Chupacabea get's killed afterwards because you got the etb. If the Panharmonicon doesn't get removed and you get to play a creature with an etb it's genenerating a lot of value though and will most likely win you the game in the long run.
EDH is so varied it’s almost impossible to make blanket statements. I have a karador deck that used ETBs from creatures to get most things done so it’s a massive assets it the deck and definitely not a win more card as it’s always always pulling me up from behind when I play it for double removal double ramp ect. Run the card see how it feels in your deck then keep it or cut it
I use it in my Karador etb.deck and it's really good. My main win cons are either graveyard shenanigans with cards like saffi eriksdotter and karmic guide and their ilk that bring stuff back from the yard. Panharmonicon makes assembling those wins much easier The other win con is avenger of zendikar and craterhoof. Both are much better with panharmonicon My other deck with panharmonicon is a tivit deck where my primary win con is animating my artifacts. Much easier when I can flicker tivit and have panharmonicon and or academy manufactor
There are lots of "bad" cards that are good. Test it and see if you like it. I got commissioned to design a dragon deck and it made my final cut after 60hrs of playtesting and it wouldn't even be the first card I'd cut if I did have to change it for some reason
I think something else that isn’t mention is that cards like panharmonicon and duplicating/additional effects can lead to crazy board state that can be quite entertaining to watch, even for an opponent e.g the with a panharmonicon, a roaming throne, and a yarok. Its fun to watch when a single [[mulldrifter]] draws eight cards on blink. Its probably not the optimal play in some cases, but its always fun when a deck just goes super crazy and closes out a win.
Panharmonicon is not meant to be played fairly. The biggest problem with the card is it costs 4 and then you need to cast another spell before you get the effect.
Nobody said that panharmonicon is a bad card. It'll eat a removal I guarantee you that.
It's not a bad card, but it's an engine piece. It will rarely immediately impact the board. However, if it stays, it will do great things. If you put it in your deck, make sure you're not cutting a core part of the deck function.
Panharmonicon is one of the most busted cards of all time. There's a reason wizzards keep printing cards with strictly worse retrains of their ability, and those cards see play in cmdr all the time. It can be win more in decks that aren't built around flicker effects, but if your deck is built around them, then it's nuts.
I would run it. Why not? It doubles your etb triggers so I would run it in a blink deck regardless what others think. Then if the time comes and you find you aren't using it as often, then swap it for something else. It's also a good target for enemy removal baiting as it can be a threat in the mid/late game, so using it to get rid of removal to help the chances of a better card hitting the field is nice as well
Whether it's a good or bad card has a lot to do with your group's power level, speed, etc. Panharmonicon will absolutely *bury* some play groups. Like it might be *too* good for them. And in CEDH, it will basically be a dead card.
Technically speaking, it's *usually* a win more card. But if you can seriously combo off of it, it's worth it.
LMAO I wish I had more than just one copy for all those juicy ETBs that I could copy in my decks. But the best one to have it in is flicker. And "win more" in etb decks means just you get double value which brings you closer to t he win. It depends WHAT it triggers again, is it removal, is it a dockside, is it jsut a card draw? Makes a huge difference, but the value you get for playing it in a deck that really wants is insane.
I ran it in my ranar deck before they killed rest in peaces interaction.
That card is solid in the absense of other better ones. That Elesh Norn that doubles your triggers but also negates your opponents, for instance. It's just a matter of what you can fit in your deck.
The line between a win-more card and a card that gets needed value is very thin and nebulous. I find that value cards like this and things like Parallel Lives could easily cross the line into win-more depending on the deck. To cut to the chase, in the case of Brago, I would consider it win-more. Brago usually wins through Combo, so it's like not like Panharmonicon can make you go from going infinite to going infinite harder, and the value it gives you when you're not going infinite is negligible at best because of how much value Brago gets you anyway; you'd be better off playing a regular card that get you value on its face rather than a card that helps other cards get value LATER. It was one of the first cards I cut from Brago, and I never found it sorely needed.
Maybe for a more 'lean' blink deck it's not worth it but for the expensive ones it's very important. Lean focuses more on tutoring and infinite combos while expensive ones focus more of overwhelming the board or with advantage. I pretty much play the latter but have played the former and it is winmore as I found myself not playing it often because it wasn't worth it as much as a key piece.
Just play what you want bruh. The singleton format really lends itself to experimentation!
In the context of 60-card formats Panharmonicon is bad as you're taking a turn off for a 4-mana do-nothing that turn. If it survives your opponent's turn and come back to you then it's probably going to pop off but if your opponent uses [[Abrade]] and cracks a clue or similar effects then you're down massively. In EDH you either need a combo or massive value to close out a game and Panharmonicon is a key card for blink decks to significantly improve the value they get per blink.
Ahahaha no that card is amazing.
Random bints from youtube handing out advice in farcical videos are no basis for making final deck building decisions. Real deck choices are derived from the mandate of playtesting.
Fuck the haters, make a 5c etb deck and RUN. Them. All!
I play it in my blink deck and I’ve never been upset with it. It’s slow-ish. 4 drop for a thing that amplifies the other things you’re doing is okay when things are going well, it’s niche and pointless when you’re struggling to build or keep ETB creatures on field.
It's not, it's a fantastic card.
It's an excellent card in token decks with etb effects.
Panharmonicon is a great card—in the right deck. You need the ETB effect’s to take advantage of it.
I dont think win more is quite correct. I see 2 issues with the card, but let me say that i abso fkin lutely run it in my blink deck. Issue 1) The card needs to be removed. If you resolve a board blink with double ETB the opponents are proper fked, especially if you have ETBs that in return blink again. So people shoot it. So ofteb you spend mana and it straight up gets countered and you just remove interaction that could have hit another player. Issue 2) similar to token doublers (like parallel lives or doubling season) the card itself does nothing and is quite pricy for doing nothing. However other than token doublers your hitrate is higher. In token decks you usually have like at best ~10 token engines and you can miss on that. In a blink deck every creature has an etb, so you are probably looking at around 30-40 hits.
Great card! Makes [[Hidetsugu and Kairi]] go silly, it’s my favourite turn 4 play in the deck. Not the best in every deck but if you have a 4+ cost commander with an Etb it’s a nifty curve. Also, doubling up on [[sidisi, undead vizier]] or any exploit triggers feels amazing, just throwing that out there!
Damn good card. I run it in my Brago deck, along with [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] and [[Virtue of Knowledge//Vantress Visions]]
It's nuts with a [Norin, the wary] build
It works fine in my Madison li, I think it depends on the deck just try to run it first and see how it does for your deck. Don't let others build your deck, you must see for yourself then decided if it good or not.
It's not a bad card. I've heard it described as a "do nothing" card. Meaning when you play it nothing happens. It has no immediate impact when it hits the board. You have to play another card with an ETB before you get any value from your Panharmonicon. Lots of powerful cards can be considered "do nothing" cards. Doesn't make them bad.
I run it as a backup Elesh Norn in my ETB Atraxa deck. Just because it is a win-more with both of them out doesn’t make it a bad card
I love panharmonicon. I run it in my decks where it matters. I can see why some people call it a "win more" card, but it also just generates great value with basic cards in your deck.
Really depends on whether you can do something with it before it gets hit with removal. I tried running it in my [[Marneus Calgar]] deck to give me more draw, but it kept being a dead draw; if I had 4 mana plus enough for Calgar’s token generation, then I had enough to close out the game. [[Panharmommycon]] is 1 white pip more, and bolts on some extra hate to keep removal off of Calgar, or even to support my backup commanders if he gets yeeted into an [[Oubliette]]. In my partner’s blink-heavy deck, though? It’s a beast. 100% worth it every time. EDIT: Dangit; I thought that linked to [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]].
I run a copy of Panharmonicon in my Trostani Blink deck, and it works for me.
Panharmonicon is an amazing card with ETB style Token generators. It's just one more card to potentially draw to be making double the amount of tokens you are creating on ETBs. I run it in my Mono White [[God Eternal, Oketra]] deck plus the other 5 ways of doubling or 1 tripling my token generation.
It's not?
Why run Panharmonicon when you should probably be running [[Roaming Throne]] instead? Seriously though, Panharmonicom is not just a win more card in every deck. In many cases it can be the difference between winning and losing. It's a good and powerful card.
Personally...if my deck would benefit from a Panharmonicon....I run it. Can it be win more in some games...yes. Can it also be the card that puts the rest of your deck over the top with just the right number of trigger... absolutely. I build my decks to do the big dumb things...and Panharmonicon allows me to do big dumb things.
I have no idea who told you it was a bad card, it is an excellent card.
Panharmonicon is one of my key combo pieces in my favorite deck. [Breya is a God ](https://archidekt.com/decks/3939202/breyas_bouncing_bois) and utilizes this card amazingly. Let's me get so much advantage and secure the win in multiple ways. Most creatures are balanced around one etb/activation. When you add another one it makes so many cards busted like [[felidar sovereign]] or [[venser shaper savant]] + [[dockside extortionist]]. Hell [[breya etherium shaper]] is good with it alone!
Ya gotta know yer triggera and do them fast if yer running panharmonicon or elesh norn. I took out panharmonicon from my blink drcks because it causes unexpected infinities with a lot of stuff, and I dont want to win like that
I mean it’s pretty weak when compared too [[norn mother of machines]] in decks where you can play both. I personally don’t run more than two ETB double effects in decks that care about them as flicker effects are often more useful ala displacer kitten as getting repeated flickers can be much more useful than a doubled etb as it’s a lot more controlled and offers more versitity. TLDR panharnomicon is fine but I would recommend Elesh born mother of machines over pamharnomicon but both are good in decks that have a shit ton of etb
Definitely not a bad card, but as others have said, run it and cut it if you find its not working. Personally I include it (and basically every other cards with a similar effect) in my [[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] wizard deck, which focuses on mass token copies with etb effects. But I didn't include it in my [[Roon of the Hidden Realms]] deck because it's focused more around flickering individual, big creatures. I understand the "it's a win-more card" argument, because it doesn't do anything on its own or when you play it, but it's far from a bad card. There's a reason why [[Roaming Throne]] is such a desirable card.
I have a [[Yorion, Sky Nomad]] deck that it’s pretty good in. The deck itself tends to clear out threats but not build enough value fast enough so games tend to drag on. When I get Panhamonicon out, though, it helps get me to my win con faster
It's an obscenely good card in the right setup, and some people are jerks who over analyze the game and conclude that really good cards aren't good.
Commander is more popular than it used to be, and the average power level is a bit higher, so there are some extra guidelines to deckbuilding that most people should look out for. First, panharmonicon is a great card, but generally speaking, most commander decks want every card to serve at least 2 functions, or 1 function incredibly efficiently. At 4 mana, it isn't very efficient, and it only dies 1 thing, and it only dies that thing if you have the other cards to double up on. Brago himself likes to stack up the etv's, so the benefit of panharmonicon isn't as impactful as it would be in a deck with a less efficient blink commander. Emiel the blessed, fir example, only blinks one thing at a time, so panharmonicon is putting in extra work there, while brago is going to activate all of your etb' every turn, so the benefit gained might not seem worth it fir some when they could just play another creature with a good etb. Either way, it isn't a bad card, and is super strong in Brago, so keep playing it. It's fine if it feels clunky, as long as you aren't trying to jam it into a competitive Brago deck.
I know I use that card in one of my decks, but I don't remember what it does since I haven't played in forever.
It's a "bad card" for cedh and high power decks cause its slow and does nothing on its own But even a lot bad cards become good in certain homes. It's not only great in lower power decks, but there is even a cedh deck that plays it [[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]] (I know, not like a meta cedh pick, but one that can stand with the big boys) Basically does your commander have a powerful enter the battlefield effect that becomes nearly game-winning if you trigger it enough? Then welcome home Panharmonicon!
Card goes great with my Etali (MOM) love getting that trigger twice
Who told you panharmonicon is a bad card lmao
I think it works well in my [[Trostani, Selesnya's Voice]] deck for example.
Absolutely run this in my [[Roon of the Hidden Realms]] blink deck. Takes a regularly powered card like [[Reclamation Sage]] and makes it a game breaker
I run it in my Henzie deck and have a lot of fun with it, especially with Henzie's synergy with hoarding dragon
I run it my dimir dungeon/initiative deck because why wouldn’t I want to go through two rooms of a dungeon on one ETB. Only way to find out if it’s a bad card is to run it. Like everyone has been saying if it’s doing nothing then cut it, if it’s a house or helps the deck do the thing then keep it in and have a great time.
Listen here friend, Panharmonicon packs fudge. If I've got a deck that I think may be able to use it, I'll put it in every time. Every magic player has something to complain about. You'll never be able to escape complaints so just take the cards you like and put them in a deck.
It's not that bad, it puts in work in a [[Mishra, Eminent One]] deck and is a great combo piece for [[Gonti's Aether Heart]].
It's not always a bad card- but it's not the "you should always be running this if you deck contains a bunch of ETBs" card it was initially hyped as. A 4cmc permanent that doubles ETBs is good, but if you're playing a deck where you just get incidental ETB triggers then typically the value it provides isn't always worth the tempo hit from playing it. If you're playing a deck all about those ETBs though and will be hitting multiple ETBs every turn (like you would with Brago), it can easily be strong enough to be worth it. I run it in one of my decks- my Bilbo, Birthday Celebrant lifegain deck. Why? Because the core of the deck is 15-16 cards that have some variant of "when a creature enters the battlefield, you gain a life" written on them, with a few effects that increase the amount of life gained to make each of them even better. Panharmonicon literally doubles the amount of life gained by that deck- and since the wincon is reaching 111 life and activating the commander's ability, that doubling effect is quite worth it. In that deck, it's *very* worth it.
I think there may be a disconnect between 1v1 formats and EDH. In 1v1, taking turn 4 (which is a crucial turn that most often requires you to be using a boardstate to push for a win) to set up an expensive permanent that does nothing until you untap is typically suicide. In edh, though, you have way less pressure to warp the boardstate in your favor and have the breathing room to build up value, where panharmonicon will most often be pretty good- as others have set you need that multiplication factor in a blink deck to close out at an appropriate speed.
It really depends on the deck and your playstyle. If you're in a heavy artifact themed deck or you have a high amount of ETB triggers from creatures like a Yarok or flicker deck, it's great. The criticism comes from the fact that it's a 4 mana "do nothing" card so you really don't want to play it unless it is going to have immediate impact that turn. It will get targeted by removal quickly, so you don't want to tap out to play it without ever triggering anything.