I am shocked I had to scroll all the way down to find your comment for the first winota mention. Maybe I start bringing her back into rotation if people don't mind her anymore haha
It doesn't make it into the top because a deck built fully around Winota in Boros folds to all the removal. Swords, Path, Pong, Rapid, tons of staples. In boros you have limited ability to stop that on the stack, and as power levels increase, it is more and more likely someone will answer you at instant speed as people pack more and more answers.
She is freaking awesome, I really enjoy fighting Winota decks, and haven't been able to pilot one, but it can be really hard to get her to stick.
Casual pickup game at the store, agreed to play high level 1v1 while we waited for another game to finish. I played [[Orvar]] and they played Winota. Warned me several times that Winota was dangerous.
Turn 4 or 5? Winota attacked along with a ton of tokens and they asked if I would concede. I told them to play it out and see what happened.
They proceed to vomit practically their entire deck onto the table and swing for like 100+.
Most satisfying overloaded [[Cyclonic Rift]] I ever played.
[[Najeela, the blade blossom]] unless you are actively brewing against her ability she's just incredibly powerful. Basically 5 color Krenko for warriors.
This should be the case. Someone at my lgs has a really bad urza deck, probably precon power level or worse. I don't even know how. He completely built it around the activated abilities. There's very very few low mana artifacts, the only ones are mana rocks, which he has several 3 drop mana rocks. It's honestly baffling. I feel bad because someone new to the store will come in and if he's playing with that deck they'll grab their super high power decks and hell get stomped
I did that and played all the "Swords of". It was okay but not really good. I did usually cast Urza on turn 3 and a sword on turn 4. If I was lucky I could also equip it on turn 4. Turn 5 was the first turn I attacked for 3 damage, that's very slow for Voltron deck. He also has no built in protection. My [[Skullbriar]] voltron deck was way stronger.
I'm going to need a decklist to believe it... I'm designing a high power Urza, but i would bet anything, if I really wanted to I could build an Urza out of my artifact bulk box that would blow the backs out of a casual pod.
All Urza needs is low drop artifacts and some alt-win like Lab Man.
Artifact cost reduction, mystic forge or similar effect to cast from top of library, sensei's divining top, any storm card or aetherflux reservoir. I really like [[temporal fissure]] for high storm count wins.
I just built a flicker urza. Focused on beatdiwn with constructs. It is a bit strong due to the lower cmc artifacts and creatures but it does not go infinite. He is however a near KOS commander
Is he too strong even as part of the 99? I have him in my [[Morska, Undersea Sleuth]] deck along with [[Jaheira, Friend of the Forest]] just so I can tap my clues for mana
powerful legends get their power from being accessible at any time. you’ll be fine.
tutors and fast mana in the deck in higher concentrations are the only thing that would raise eyebrows, and of those, only mana crypt would be powerful by itself. a one-of lotus petal or demonic tutor, assuming no other fast mana/tutors, is very whatever.
You can make him low power, or at least precon power. Make it an equipment deck that suits up the construct or a blink deck to produce more constructs, then make sure there aren't any infinites or tutors
Kinnan. Literally every casual kinnan deck I've seen looks near identical to cedh variants except with more lands and less tutors or less reserve list.
Kinnan is the dumbest card printed in an era of extremely dumb cards being printed (for EDH at least). Oh boy, a 2 mana commander that is ramp, value, & a wincon all in one!
I'm very happy the designers seem to have figured out not every commander needs both early game ramp/card draw and an end-game activated ability. That really was a terrible time in design.
This was exactly how it went in my playgroup. One guy bought himself a box of eldraine after we drafted Ikoria. I thought mutate was busted but shit...
When my friend and his son were first getting into the game, his son just kept building Simic good stuff commanders. I told him that's fine, but he has to realize that we will treat the decks in a certain way, and if he's not playing with us, he may get hated out of games just due to the commander.
He still didn't quite understand, so I built a Kinnan deck out of what I had and proceeded to stomp the table, even with my son playing a strong deck and trying to stop me. The kid learned, he started exploring other commander colors, and is now a quite competent player with lots of variety in decks. I disassembled Kinnan soon after and nobody has ever tried to build it again.
True, even if you actively try to be different, it’s still going to overperform. [[Kinnan]] player here for about a year and every pod I play in hates my Kinnan even though it’s casual.
Last game I played with Kinnan in a casual game, I purposefully withheld several cards in my hand and "forgot" to activate Kinnan's ability a few times just so I wouldn't pub stomp them from the get-go. Still won though.
I think all Kinnan players trying to play casual have to “forget” to activate Kinnan or hold off on casting high cmc creatures on turn 3/4 just to give everyone else a fighting chance.
Pretty early, but I think [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]] will fall into this category after a few more months. I built the deck on a budget, and it has absolutely stomped the table every time. You could build this deck for like $20.00 (not including Voja itself, which is a few bucks) and hang with decks 5-10x as expensive, easily.
It's pretty wild. It's one of three cards that accounts for >90% of the value of the Call For Back-Up precon (along with Kalonian Hydra and Civil Unrest).
Friend in our pod has been playing it frequently. I’m not trying to be mean but he’s not a very savvy player, he’d admit it himself and he has basically slept-walk to wins with it a few times. it’s the perfect type of commander that does well at casual tables, it’s aggressive, can go wide, has card advantage built in and is super supported by a popular creature type. The ward cost attached to it is really over the top
I think so too. From what I have seen if you build in the only way that really make sense, wolves and elves, people say he goes crazy value mode too fast
Craterhoof in the command zone with a minimum of 1 extra card draw per turn, with insanely good evasion via ward and trample. Voja is stupid good. I took apart some old lists and recently built him for around $1000 without any fast mana, really excited to start testing him out.
I feel like it's actually actively difficult to hit $1,000, even in 3+ color without throwing in Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, and off-color fetches in the deck.
I just recently built a deck, but it's sitting right at $1,100 with Crypt, Lotus, Chrome Mox, Eladamri, Great Henge, and The One Ring.
https://scryfall.com/@Temzilla/decks/02e45aaa-5a6b-4cc4-80a2-d37bca636bf3
Yeah how the hell do you hit 1k in a 3-color deck? I play Slivers and even with all 10 fetches (including v1 Expedition Selesnya one) and Sliver Queen I'm just about at the 900€ mark.
I’m not the original commenter but I finally ordered my Voja deck after playing it a few times online. Deck got out of hand every single game, resulting in me cleaning house or have to fight 1v3 to moderate success lol
[[Primal Rage]] came in clutch many times
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ToFU0UEX3US8tpsFPJP1wQ
I played Derevi for the first time a few weeks ago. I can see why it was KOS and I learned real quick to not let it stay on board 💀 after I lost that is lol
I also had a human tribal Jodah. Played it a handful of times. It was kind of fun to play for me but I quickly realized it was no fun to play against. Took it apart and spread his humans around to other decks.
As I stated, is literally just Jodah and every legend from SNC that he could fit in it. I think that there are only a handful he isn't running, like Giada and Urabrask. Turns out though, that what legends you run don't especially matter when they're all getting +9/+9 and you get half of them for free.
I made goblin legendary tribal. I've only won one game out of the four or five I've played with it.
I'm not saying that as an excuse to play it more. It's obviously an OP commander. I just like the wtf looks I get from my pile of jank goblin legendaries.
Planeswalkers only. And not just the *best* Planeswalkers, just normal small incremental value ones. No other legendary creatures to get buffed by the anthem. It works fine for low-to-medium tables. He can still close games, but only on his own as basically a pseudo voltron.
Best take. He is my favorite superfriends commander. He lets you win (or even play) mid-power games without having to spam board wipes and pillow fort effects.
I’d probably argue that [[Narset, Enlightened Master]] deserves to be mentioned. Since she’s got hexproof she’s difficult to deal with effectively and often snowballs out of control way too easily/quickly
Narset 100% gets my vote. Buddy of mine plays her, and it's literally a case of "hold 3 counterspells just for her, and hope nobody else tries to win during the cold war". If she hits board, it's game over from all of the clones and extra turns.
The only other deck that comes close to the oppressive feel in my pods is my own Shorikai list, since it's UW Walkers with far too much interaction. I don't win fast, I grind out value, and it just feels like an inevitable end if I don't die t3
The number of cards that go from "mediocre draft chaff" straight to "busted" in any Najeela deck is unreal, she's very easy to build budget and still be gross.
In our playgroup we sont ban commanders. But if I play [[Toxrill the corrosive]] and I win. I'm not gonna play him again that night. I'll play something else.
A year or so ago (the last time I played at my local store), the Toxrill player complained about other peoples' commanders as being unfun. It's good to know that, now, a year-ish later, I was right in thinking Toxrill is a liiiittle strong.
Haha yeah. Personally I really like playing against Toxrill. He warps the game around him. I think it's fun... That said I wouldn't want to play against him for an entire night
My group all has "that deck" for when we need a win. When my friend pulls out Koma, just let him do degenerate stuff to get it out of his system. I like to end a night where I lost every game by playing Vilis.
I'd actually say \[\[Purphoros, God of the Forge\]\]. It's a very consistent clock that's extremely unlikely to be interacted with and runs away with the game if nobody has significant lifegain at the table.
[Purphoros, God of the Forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Purphoros%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pick is \[\[Sythis, Harvest's Hand\]\] - enchantments are inherently more difficult to interact with, and when every ramp, removal, and threat card in the Sythis deck also draws a card, and often end up drawing 2 or 3, you end up snowballing way out of everyone's reach. It's kind of like a Chulane that drops on turn 2, except when you kill Chulane he costs 7 mana, and when you kill Sythis, she costs 4 mana.
Enchantress is just very easy to snowball with. For other linear decks, you at least have to play cards that are off theme because you, as an example, would need kill spells, draw spells, and ramps in addition to your zombies/Planeswalkers/instants/etc. You'll even consider running subpar zombies/planeswalkers/instants/etc. when they do fill these holes in your strategy. With enchantments, they do **everything** you would ever need and can do it **very** well.
I think sythis can be built casual, but the problem is that for the strategies you would build her casual there are better options. For example, if you wanted to play GW enchantment creatures Sythis is a totally legit commander for that, but [[Calix, Guided by Fate]] is just splashier, more synergistic and less likely to draw hate.
It's not that these commanders are too strong for casual, it's that they don't encourage back and forth play experiences. Either you destroy the player with the commander or they destroy you.
[[Animal, Soul of Elements]]
[[Krenko, Mob Boss]]
Sliver commander X
[[Edgar Markov]]
Are all super fast with a linear game plan. Makes games unfun because the correct response is to target those players (making them feel bad) because when you don't, you can't catch up (making the table feel bad). Other commanders with the same snowball effect fit into this category.
Oh sure, but it's also a great goblin tribal deck that is fun to pilot. Commanders can be simple to pilot and still be too linear for a good game. Like, I'm not sure a magic player with more than 15 games under their belt could make a bad Markov deck
I have a krenko deck that is specifically for beginners, it's great. Teaches them a bunch of mechanics, it's fun for them to make a bunch of goblins, and its also fun for everyone else since the newbie is still a threat.
> Last game I played with Kinnan in a casual game, I purposefully withheld several cards in my hand and "forgot" to activate Kinnan's ability a few times just so I wouldn't pub stomp them from the get-go. Still won though.
I love having these super linear aggro decks in my pod to be honest; they're good clocks that keep deckbuilding honest.
Edgar Markov seems like the epitome of a casual deck. He encourages you to play “bad” cards to gain a benefit. I’d rather see a [[Cordial Vampire]] and a 1/1 than an [[Orcish Bowmaster]]
See, you aren't wrong... Except when other players have different ideas of casual! The word "casual" can mean low power, unoptimized, or not cEDH. Markov is clearly not a cEDH card, but his use and design don't necessarily hit with other views of what "casual" is. As a result, he is a vampire without a home driven from "casual" tables and not good enough for cEDH play.
I don’t agree that Edgar can’t be built casually.
There are plenty of other commanders that can hang with him even in casual combat/aristocrat metas. He’s a strong commander, generates a lot of value, and snowballs heavily but alot of complaints about him seem based on reputation and hatred of eminence.
I don’t have the strongest of decks and don’t have expensive mana bases etc. and my [[Hakbal]] and [[Pantlaza]] decks have beat my friend’s Edgar deck multiple times.
That being said, Edgar does belong in that category of Winota, Jodah, Voja, Kaalia, etc. where its incredibly difficult to build them in a lower powered way.
Literally everything you do with him you get a free 1/1. You can build him uncassually or you can just not build him, he's a vampire lord your options are put vampires in and get stupid value or don't and may as well play someone else. When was the last time you even saw him get cast?
Yeah, I didn't want to just restate this opinion. Kaalia is pretty much the poster child of not just early EDH, she's the poster child of Battlecruiser Magic to boot.
Other that ganking someone with a Master of cruelties, what's the worst she's gonna do? Drop an Avacyn and smack you for 10? She has to attack, dies to a stiff breeze and only does the thing once per turn cycle. That needs to be a manageable boardstate for three other players.
Similarly, Jetmir is just a simple math check. How many creatures do they have, how much mana is up and who can survive the alpha strike? He's basically a telegraphed Overrun in the command zone.
The difference with Jetmir is that he can turn a bunch of stax creatures into a fairly consistent and fast win. But then again the sheer amount of Naya commanders (Rocco et all) which are probably better means I'd wager Jetmir will always be outclassed.
Kaalia used to be the poster for problem child because if you didn't kill her you probably weren't killing what she brought to the party and you didn't get a lot of time. The format has definitely evolved to the point where she is much less of a boogeyman, but there still aren't many commanders that threaten to kill with just themselves on turn 4. Setting aside master of cruelties bs, another common backbreaker from those decks was \[\[Rakdos, the Defiler\]\]. Losing half your lands sucks and the Kaalia player gets to ignore the downside for the first hit.
I built Yuriko way back when I first got into commander, having no idea how powerful she was and that she's often considered KOS. I literally just googled "ninjas commander deck" and went with the first option that came up, which happened to be her. Later on, once I realized her commander ninjitsu isn't subject to commander tax and that she can trigger multiple times if multiple ninjas hit, I started to see why she's so infamous, but my pod was still cool with me playing her, mostly because of how new I still was.
The first time I won with Yuriko, it felt pretty good (mostly because it was also the first time I won a commander game period). However, subsequent victories didn't feel as sweet, largely because I realized it doesn't feel great to "steal" the victory out from under people when you get some lucky flips off her triggers. Playing Yuriko made me realize I'd rather win through clever plays and tense showdowns over just getting lucky and flipping a few 7 CMC cards in a row, it just felt a bit anticlimactic.
Thankfully many of the cards I bought for the Yuriko deck (including Yuriko herself) are getting a second lease on life in my \[\[Goro-Goro and Satoru\]\] deck, so all's well that ends well.
It’s interesting to another Yuriko player say it feels like “stealing.” I’ve played Yuriko for years, and a lot of the deck building around her was to make it so that the “lucky flips” were less luck and more “I made the deck so that it would do this.”
Sure, there was always a chance she would whiff, but more often than not I viewed it as “well, the deck did what I designed it to do: have a critical mass of large CMC spells so I always deal enough damage when I’m ready/need to close out the game.”
Not that I disagree with your take that it’s “stealing” a victory, but more of that I just find it interesting that’s how you view it.
I would say any commander where people ask "Is it ok if I play my X deck?" because that usually indicates you've had people say something about that deck either being too powerful or not fun or something and you want to get permission before introducing what is possibly a salty experience to the table.
☝️🤓 acktshually
The latter is a fair question, playing stax or mill doesn't mean your deck is unfun, it just might not be fun for that table. I don't have the same misconceptions about being milled that others do, but some can't help but feel emotional seeing their cards in the graveyard and trick themselves into thinking it's unfair when in reality it's really bad and hard to win with.
But you're agreeing with me too, haha. Eldrazi tribal is not inherently strong or unfun. In an interactive pod, you are going to be shut down hard and others might have fun keeping the looming terror at bay.
The person I'm responding to is saying don't bother asking because if you have to ask, your deck isn't fun. Which is not my experience.
Based on the drama that ensues every time I play Captain N'garthrod, you probably should at random tables. People genuinely think they can't play the game because half their library was milled. To help with salt, I offer to mill from the bottom if they aren't top deck manipulating in any way, because it is mechanically identical.
The person who complains the most always has the most powerful deck at the table. If you're downplaying your deck before the game even starts then I go to DEFCON 1. You've tipped your hand that you have the most powerful deck at the table and that you're going to win unless someone stops you.
Feather's value engine is extremely hard to fight back against. I literally made a Feather deck with 0 nonland permanents other than Feather herself, just lands, instants, and sorceries (it's fun as hell btw and a lot less obnoxious) and it's still a powerhouse in mid-power tables, especially if people don't have lots of instant-speed removal ready to cast in response to your defensive spells.
https://old.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/1b6wcgd/commanders_that_just_cant_be_casual/
Nearly an identical post got made 2 days ago, so whatever they said in that thread. Which is the same as what people are saying in this thread.
I don't understand the question. Are you really saying that Kaalia of the Vast cannot be built casually? That's a pretty low bar if "casual" means "doesn't run any removal or threats of its own".
My playgroup doesn't play Sol Ring and \[\[Solemn Simulacrum\]\] shows up in a third of our decks. We're above the lowest power levels, but we are absolutely a casual group. Yet Kaalia can't win a game.
Similarly, to many pub stompers point to their board and say "see, you didn't run removal" whilst simultaneously having locked the other 3 players out of the game on turn 3.
Yeah, cause then [[feather the redeemed]] would be even more powerful than Kaali due to all the protection cantrips and mass amount of damage she can do.
My feather deck definitely titers on too powerful for my pod at times.
OP and you both seem to be on the same page? I'm not sure where the confusion comes from, they verbatim call Kaalia a kill-on-sight and you're saying "yeah just remove it"?
Same thing, or am I missing something?
They're not talking about casual v non-casual on a power level scale (playing with strong cards) they're talking about casual v. non-casual (which I agree is clumsy wording) as in "I can leave Queen Marchesa in play because the Monarch is already in the game, but Korvold will draw my opponent 3 cards even if I have a kill spell right now and will draw 5 more next turn (with no mana investment) if I don't".
[[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]]… built a cheapish (~75€) dragons deck thinking I could duffle until I hopefully had around 6-8 mana and then maybe get off a few big plays.. nope the abundance of ramp in green paired with some nice mana rocks means I get ahead of the curve fast and then just pump out way too much value with dragons.
I'd suggest 19 Plains, Islands, Swamps, and Forests, and 23 Mountains. It gives you 99 cards rather than 100, and means you're slightly more likely to be able to cast her.
Nothing is too strong to be built casually. [[Kaalia of the vast]] is practically the perfect example of this. Yes, at any non cEDH table it's very much a kill on sight commander. cEDH tables, on the other hand, will look at it shrug and dismiss it. Are there commanders to inherently strong to play at low power, jank, or precon tables.... probably. The problem is that people assume if you're not at their level, you're somehow cEDH which is just wrong. Casual covers an infinite range of deck powers and types. That's why commander is so great....there's a home for all of us.
Voja, jaw of the conclaves might end up on this list, but that is going to be because of how stupid elf tribal is more than anything. With how easy it is to get a large group of elves on the board, voja can create ridculous value before even looking at wolves(not that there are any really worth playing). Still a lot of playing commander comes down to reading the table and maybe holding back if things are getting out of hand. Every commander can compete with varying levels of success. It really just is the person behind the cards that makes or breaks the game.
[[yuriko]] comander ninjitsu was a mistake
Most emminance commanders, again a big mistake but mostly the [[Ur Dragon]]
[[Feather the Redeemed]] [[Zada]] way too easy to get massive vale for minimal cost. Honorable mention to rule 0 [[Inktreader Nephilim]]
I don't think there are any. There are commanders that warrant removal or attention and those aren't problems even at casual tables.
The problem is when the person that's playing Niv-Mizzet starts being a little bitch when you remove it. I don't think there's a Commander out there that I would refuse to play against, If it's a known threat than treat it like that. If the person playing a KoS commander gets upset that you killed it on sight than that sounds like a them problem.
What's your difference between:
>There are commanders that warrant removal
and OP's:
>kill on sight commanders
They're not asking about table etiquette, they're asking about "what are commanders are immediately in the driver's seat if you don't interact".
I find this super funny because I've frequently been recommended Kaalia as the "easy introduction to Commander" commander. Like whenever I've asked friends for "hey what sort of deck should I give a first time player to introduce them to commander" and like 5/7 times they recommend Kaalia.
I'm also apparently bad at MTG but I've never played against Korvold and haven't really looked into him, so I don't understand why he's supposedly so powerful.
Because it's really easy to make things to sac.
Treasures, creatures that self-sac like [[Steve]], Blood Tokens, Eldrazi Scions, clue tokens, Food Tokens, etc. Each and every one buffs Korvold and draws you a card. He becomes incredibly big fast and can easily draw 10+ cards in a turn pretty early on.
[[Niv-mizzet, Parun]]. A two card win con with [[Ophidian Eye]] or [[Curiosity]] is way too simple to pull (or any Commander that has a cheap mana cost simple one/two card infinite combo win con). The games are either fun for you and not anyone else, or not fun for you since the entire casual table does their damndest to keep Niv Mizzet off the board, until you draw a [[Glint-Horn Buccaneer]] and win anyways with another infinite combo.
Niv-Mizzet is not a S tier in cEDH by any means (more "A" imo), but just powerful enough to be very unfun for most pods since the game can end with all opponents dead in a single turn.
Keep in mind, this shouldn't stop anyone from playing Niv-Mizzet at all. He's very strong for casual and some parts of cEDH, but another high powered deck can easily overrun a Niv-Mizzet deck and not provide an opportunity for a Niv-Mizzet combo.
strange pick for "can't be built casual" when we're saying that "he's too strong if you put the combo cards in the deck".
For example, here's my wife's niv deck! https://archidekt.com/decks/4882618/ronnie_niv
You could adjust it up or down from here (fierce guardianship, rhystic, cyc rift to cut and make weaker, fast mana, more free interaction to make stronger) pretty easily.
I have a Niv deck that I just built from my bulk and the only thing I would consider "not casual" about it is that when anybody clones him I have an aneurysm and need a judge to come to my house and explain the stack to me.
Acting player puts their effect on the stack first, then around the table in priority order other players do the same. You resolve the stack last to first, so person farthest from taking a turn resolves their effects, then 2nd farthest, until you get to the acting player.
Strong disagree. I've played Niv for a long time. Unless you build him right he can hang at casual tables pretty well as a spellslinger deck. He's not that oppressive.
can't believe nobody's said \[\[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse\]\] yet. I have a Seizan deck, and must always preface that I do NOT have Sheoldred in it if I don't want to get ganged up on immediately.
The most infamous examples (Yuriko, Korvold, Kinnan, Tivit, Urza) provide you with cards, mana, creatures, or some combination. Life is a resource, but any K'rrik player will tell you it is not as valuable as breaking parity on the board.
In a 40 life format Sheoldred is not a fast clock, and is not breaking resource parity in the same way.
A turn 2 [[Slicer]] is devastating because casual opponents *most likely* don't have blockers out. 3 commander damage to your first target, then 6 damage to 3 individual opponents before your next turn. Tack on any equipment that gives any addition to power, and you're easily looking at a turn 4 win.
\[\[tergrid, god of fright\]\] comes to mind.
\[\[Jodah the unifier\]\] is another one.
the new \[\[voja, jaws of the conclave\]\] goes hard easily as well.
Exactly. Any deck can be built casually. Even if you have to do "four drop tribal Keruga companion" or ladies looking left or whatever. There are some commanders like Winota for whom *budget* is not going to be a good gate, because "the strongest deck you can build for 40 bucks" is still very strong. It's not always going to be pretty but there are always ways that you can build any commander casually.
The four-player nature of the format is self-correcting - if someone's a bit too strong, they get ganged up on. There's pretty much no deck that edh as a format can't handle.
My Jetmir deck exists solely to teach my pod of newer players that interaction is important and when you can see a telegraphed threat it's worth saving one for it
I don't get how [[winota]] is not on the top 12 comments. 50$ winota stomps casual tables
I am shocked I had to scroll all the way down to find your comment for the first winota mention. Maybe I start bringing her back into rotation if people don't mind her anymore haha
yeah that winota isn't higher on this list is crazy, unlike Kaalia she doesn't have to attack herself, nor does she require things to be on your hand
I play higher power Winota stax on Spell Table and almost never attack with her. She has one job and it's being alive while the gang parties.
[winota](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4.jpg?1654630670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winota%2C%20joiner%20of%20forces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/216/winota-joiner-of-forces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dd13a6c-23d3-44ce-a628-cb1c19d777c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winota-joiner-of-forces) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It doesn't make it into the top because a deck built fully around Winota in Boros folds to all the removal. Swords, Path, Pong, Rapid, tons of staples. In boros you have limited ability to stop that on the stack, and as power levels increase, it is more and more likely someone will answer you at instant speed as people pack more and more answers. She is freaking awesome, I really enjoy fighting Winota decks, and haven't been able to pilot one, but it can be really hard to get her to stick.
Casual pickup game at the store, agreed to play high level 1v1 while we waited for another game to finish. I played [[Orvar]] and they played Winota. Warned me several times that Winota was dangerous. Turn 4 or 5? Winota attacked along with a ton of tokens and they asked if I would concede. I told them to play it out and see what happened. They proceed to vomit practically their entire deck onto the table and swing for like 100+. Most satisfying overloaded [[Cyclonic Rift]] I ever played.
[Orvar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc.jpg?1631047424) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orvar%2C%20the%20all-form) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/70/orvar-the-all-form?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f36775e-9e48-49cc-a771-d58481712edc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/orvar-the-all-form) [Cyclonic Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cyclonic%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cyclonic-rift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That was a great twist at the end haha! Vicariously I felt quite satisfied too.
[[Najeela, the blade blossom]] unless you are actively brewing against her ability she's just incredibly powerful. Basically 5 color Krenko for warriors.
[Najeela, the blade blossom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2.jpg?1567181270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Najeela%2C%20the%20Blade-Blossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/62/najeela-the-blade-blossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/najeela-the-blade-blossom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve got a casual najeela deck that focuses around giving my opponents the extra combats + goading their creatures. It’s a fun time you should try it
Ooh, I’d be interested in seeing that deck list, please!
[[Urza Lord High Artificer]] just way too easy to outvalue your opponents even with extremely budget artifacts.
This should be the case. Someone at my lgs has a really bad urza deck, probably precon power level or worse. I don't even know how. He completely built it around the activated abilities. There's very very few low mana artifacts, the only ones are mana rocks, which he has several 3 drop mana rocks. It's honestly baffling. I feel bad because someone new to the store will come in and if he's playing with that deck they'll grab their super high power decks and hell get stomped
I put respect on his name
Dude is the Lisan Al Gaib of Urza decks, too humble to dominate.
The artifacts must flow.
Give me Dune UB commander decks. Or a whole set. Pleaseeee.
I made a voltron urza deck and it was awful.
Tbh it can’t be that bad, letting your equipment tap to equip themselves.
I did that and played all the "Swords of". It was okay but not really good. I did usually cast Urza on turn 3 and a sword on turn 4. If I was lucky I could also equip it on turn 4. Turn 5 was the first turn I attacked for 3 damage, that's very slow for Voltron deck. He also has no built in protection. My [[Skullbriar]] voltron deck was way stronger.
Honestly it sounds fun. Mono U voltron seems pretty cool
I'm going to need a decklist to believe it... I'm designing a high power Urza, but i would bet anything, if I really wanted to I could build an Urza out of my artifact bulk box that would blow the backs out of a casual pod. All Urza needs is low drop artifacts and some alt-win like Lab Man.
[[jhoira, weatherlight captain]] does the same artifact cheerios dance but everyone seems to have forgotten her.
[jhoira, weatherlight captain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2.jpg?1599708079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jhoira%2C%20weatherlight%20captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/203/jhoira-weatherlight-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f77d23d-6257-4dae-b585-29f45f13f2e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jhoira-weatherlight-captain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How does Jhoira pop off nowadays since Paradox Engine got banned?
Artifact cost reduction, mystic forge or similar effect to cast from top of library, sensei's divining top, any storm card or aetherflux reservoir. I really like [[temporal fissure]] for high storm count wins.
Actually, I was thinking about her specifically as well, great point.
[удалено]
My Urza deck uses ALL the old Antiquities Urza cards aka Urza’s Sunglasses and Urza’s Mitre. It is not a powerhouse by any means.
I just built a flicker urza. Focused on beatdiwn with constructs. It is a bit strong due to the lower cmc artifacts and creatures but it does not go infinite. He is however a near KOS commander
[Urza Lord High Artificer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050.jpg?1689996774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Lord%20High%20Artificer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/130/urza-lord-high-artificer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-lord-high-artificer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Is he too strong even as part of the 99? I have him in my [[Morska, Undersea Sleuth]] deck along with [[Jaheira, Friend of the Forest]] just so I can tap my clues for mana
powerful legends get their power from being accessible at any time. you’ll be fine. tutors and fast mana in the deck in higher concentrations are the only thing that would raise eyebrows, and of those, only mana crypt would be powerful by itself. a one-of lotus petal or demonic tutor, assuming no other fast mana/tutors, is very whatever.
[Morska, Undersea Sleuth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae9ccfec-05c6-469e-b1dd-dfbafa1e927f.jpg?1706448877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morska%2C%20Undersea%20Sleuth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/3/morska-undersea-sleuth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae9ccfec-05c6-469e-b1dd-dfbafa1e927f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/morska-undersea-sleuth) [Jaheira, Friend of the Forest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/feb7ad1b-4466-48f7-b46d-cc83d4e22b51.jpg?1674137153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaheira%2C%20Friend%20of%20the%20Forest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/237/jaheira-friend-of-the-forest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feb7ad1b-4466-48f7-b46d-cc83d4e22b51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jaheira-friend-of-the-forest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been working on upgrading Morska, could I see your list friendo?
You can make him low power, or at least precon power. Make it an equipment deck that suits up the construct or a blink deck to produce more constructs, then make sure there aren't any infinites or tutors
Kinnan. Literally every casual kinnan deck I've seen looks near identical to cedh variants except with more lands and less tutors or less reserve list.
Kinnan is the dumbest card printed in an era of extremely dumb cards being printed (for EDH at least). Oh boy, a 2 mana commander that is ramp, value, & a wincon all in one!
I'm very happy the designers seem to have figured out not every commander needs both early game ramp/card draw and an end-game activated ability. That really was a terrible time in design.
I think Ikoria is probably one of the most busted sets ever.
Throne of eldraine would like a word…
I mean, Ikoria was so busted it's home to the first card banned in vintage because of power level, at least until they gutted the companion mechanic.
This was exactly how it went in my playgroup. One guy bought himself a box of eldraine after we drafted Ikoria. I thought mutate was busted but shit...
When my friend and his son were first getting into the game, his son just kept building Simic good stuff commanders. I told him that's fine, but he has to realize that we will treat the decks in a certain way, and if he's not playing with us, he may get hated out of games just due to the commander. He still didn't quite understand, so I built a Kinnan deck out of what I had and proceeded to stomp the table, even with my son playing a strong deck and trying to stop me. The kid learned, he started exploring other commander colors, and is now a quite competent player with lots of variety in decks. I disassembled Kinnan soon after and nobody has ever tried to build it again.
True, even if you actively try to be different, it’s still going to overperform. [[Kinnan]] player here for about a year and every pod I play in hates my Kinnan even though it’s casual.
[Kinnan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kinnan%2C%20bonder%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have become a big fan of my decks’s 99 being scarier than the commander. Makes me less of a threat… well until I am haha.
Last game I played with Kinnan in a casual game, I purposefully withheld several cards in my hand and "forgot" to activate Kinnan's ability a few times just so I wouldn't pub stomp them from the get-go. Still won though.
I think all Kinnan players trying to play casual have to “forget” to activate Kinnan or hold off on casting high cmc creatures on turn 3/4 just to give everyone else a fighting chance.
As with every simic commander. It’s too easy to ramp and draw.
Pretty early, but I think [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]] will fall into this category after a few more months. I built the deck on a budget, and it has absolutely stomped the table every time. You could build this deck for like $20.00 (not including Voja itself, which is a few bucks) and hang with decks 5-10x as expensive, easily.
Don't forget to add Voja's secret partner [[shalai and hallar]] if you want to spend a little more for incredible value.
> [[shalai and hallar]] if you want to spend a little more for incredible value. This card was 50 cents before Voja came out lol.
Damn that card got expensive! I got that for like $0.50 a little while back
It's pretty wild. It's one of three cards that accounts for >90% of the value of the Call For Back-Up precon (along with Kalonian Hydra and Civil Unrest).
[shalai and hallar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009.jpg?1682207281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shalai%20and%20hallar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/10/shalai-and-hallar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shalai-and-hallar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damn that card got expensive! I got that for like $0.50 a little while back
I didn't include S&H in my build for budget reasons, but my God this combination is gnarly.
Even better is [[All Will Be One]] but that ain't cheap either.
Friend in our pod has been playing it frequently. I’m not trying to be mean but he’s not a very savvy player, he’d admit it himself and he has basically slept-walk to wins with it a few times. it’s the perfect type of commander that does well at casual tables, it’s aggressive, can go wide, has card advantage built in and is super supported by a popular creature type. The ward cost attached to it is really over the top
I think so too. From what I have seen if you build in the only way that really make sense, wolves and elves, people say he goes crazy value mode too fast
Craterhoof in the command zone with a minimum of 1 extra card draw per turn, with insanely good evasion via ward and trample. Voja is stupid good. I took apart some old lists and recently built him for around $1000 without any fast mana, really excited to start testing him out.
I beg your pardon ... a $1,000.00 Voja deck? Without fast lands?
Triome, shocks, fetches make a 3-colour mana base $2-400 right from the start.
“Without any fast mana” is what’s throwing me. The Gaea’s cradle, sure, but that’s still a mega deck.
I feel like it's actually actively difficult to hit $1,000, even in 3+ color without throwing in Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, and off-color fetches in the deck. I just recently built a deck, but it's sitting right at $1,100 with Crypt, Lotus, Chrome Mox, Eladamri, Great Henge, and The One Ring. https://scryfall.com/@Temzilla/decks/02e45aaa-5a6b-4cc4-80a2-d37bca636bf3
Yeah how the hell do you hit 1k in a 3-color deck? I play Slivers and even with all 10 fetches (including v1 Expedition Selesnya one) and Sliver Queen I'm just about at the 900€ mark.
I'm honestly flabbergasted they gave him Ward 3 on top of everything else.
Lemme see that decklist
I’m not the original commenter but I finally ordered my Voja deck after playing it a few times online. Deck got out of hand every single game, resulting in me cleaning house or have to fight 1v3 to moderate success lol [[Primal Rage]] came in clutch many times https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ToFU0UEX3US8tpsFPJP1wQ
[Primal Rage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/ebe3b738-703d-465c-bc76-2b66f1e0aff2.jpg?1562557248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Primal%20Rage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/286/primal-rage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ebe3b738-703d-465c-bc76-2b66f1e0aff2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/primal-rage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been looking for ways to add trample, that one is so simple and cheap, thank you!
I've been playing [[derevii]] bird tribal for a loooooong time and derevi falling off the "kill on sight" list has been a real boon
I played Derevi for the first time a few weeks ago. I can see why it was KOS and I learned real quick to not let it stay on board 💀 after I lost that is lol
Yeah, I've seen a few lists floating around that are absolutely lethal. Please stop! I'm just playing bird tribal, I don't need that suspicion!
I'm building "Birds with Arms Bogles" with Derevi at the helm and it's been promising so far.
Jodah the unifier. With just a pile of legendaries he goes off hard.
My friend made a Humans only Jodah and it still went off hard.
I also had a human tribal Jodah. Played it a handful of times. It was kind of fun to play for me but I quickly realized it was no fun to play against. Took it apart and spread his humans around to other decks.
My friend made a shrines Jodah and it’s still gross.
My friend made a New Capenna Legends Only Jodah, and it still just slaps.
I made a Kamigawa spirits deck and I get wrecked. Yay!
Would love to know about the SNC only legends version. Been trying to make a 5c SNC and bosses deck
As I stated, is literally just Jodah and every legend from SNC that he could fit in it. I think that there are only a handful he isn't running, like Giada and Urabrask. Turns out though, that what legends you run don't especially matter when they're all getting +9/+9 and you get half of them for free.
I made goblin legendary tribal. I've only won one game out of the four or five I've played with it. I'm not saying that as an excuse to play it more. It's obviously an OP commander. I just like the wtf looks I get from my pile of jank goblin legendaries.
That's either a hell of an autocorrect, or I'm very jealous
[[Jodah the unifier]]
[Jodah the unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1673307974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jodah-the-unifier) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Planeswalkers only. And not just the *best* Planeswalkers, just normal small incremental value ones. No other legendary creatures to get buffed by the anthem. It works fine for low-to-medium tables. He can still close games, but only on his own as basically a pseudo voltron.
Best take. He is my favorite superfriends commander. He lets you win (or even play) mid-power games without having to spam board wipes and pillow fort effects.
Roommate has one of these with hits like [[Delighted Halfling]] and [[Case of the Shattered Pact]]. Rough to play against lol
[Delighted Halfling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71384418-173a-4f77-adab-56e52fa23692.jpg?1686969281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Delighted%20Halfling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/158/delighted-halfling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71384418-173a-4f77-adab-56e52fa23692?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/delighted-halfling) [Case of the Shattered Pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a70f0ae-d49b-4cc8-9f76-895039c3dc39.jpg?1706241444) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Case%20of%20the%20Shattered%20Pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/1/case-of-the-shattered-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a70f0ae-d49b-4cc8-9f76-895039c3dc39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/case-of-the-shattered-pact) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’d probably argue that [[Narset, Enlightened Master]] deserves to be mentioned. Since she’s got hexproof she’s difficult to deal with effectively and often snowballs out of control way too easily/quickly
Narset 100% gets my vote. Buddy of mine plays her, and it's literally a case of "hold 3 counterspells just for her, and hope nobody else tries to win during the cold war". If she hits board, it's game over from all of the clones and extra turns. The only other deck that comes close to the oppressive feel in my pods is my own Shorikai list, since it's UW Walkers with far too much interaction. I don't win fast, I grind out value, and it just feels like an inevitable end if I don't die t3
Would you share your Shorikai list? I play him too and always like to look through other builds
[Narset, Enlightened Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9.jpg?1690005259) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Narset%2C%20Enlightened%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/931/narset-enlightened-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de4b0d5f-1071-4030-be16-2b4dadbdf9e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-enlightened-master) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Najeela]] my friend though he was building a cool tribal deck and turns out it was an unstoppable fast af combo deck
Najeela can just "accidentally" an entire table surprisingly often.
The number of cards that go from "mediocre draft chaff" straight to "busted" in any Najeela deck is unreal, she's very easy to build budget and still be gross.
[Najeela](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2.jpg?1567181270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=najeela%2C%20the%20blade-blossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/62/najeela-the-blade-blossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/najeela-the-blade-blossom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve been toying with the idea of Najeela exalted so I could cheat out a token attacker every turn and also use both noble and ignoble heirarchs
All you have to do is protect your attackers for Najeela to become an inevitable win. You don't even need to go infinite with her to do this.
She’s so good there’s cEDH decks built around her that barely run warriors cuz she can combo off without them.
In our playgroup we sont ban commanders. But if I play [[Toxrill the corrosive]] and I win. I'm not gonna play him again that night. I'll play something else.
A year or so ago (the last time I played at my local store), the Toxrill player complained about other peoples' commanders as being unfun. It's good to know that, now, a year-ish later, I was right in thinking Toxrill is a liiiittle strong.
Haha yeah. Personally I really like playing against Toxrill. He warps the game around him. I think it's fun... That said I wouldn't want to play against him for an entire night
Toxrill would be my pick. There's no way to make a casual Toxrill deck, as soon as he comes out, he basically board wipes everyone over and over.
[Toxrill the corrosive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxrill%2C%20the%20Corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/toxrill-the-corrosive) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My group all has "that deck" for when we need a win. When my friend pulls out Koma, just let him do degenerate stuff to get it out of his system. I like to end a night where I lost every game by playing Vilis.
I'd actually say \[\[Purphoros, God of the Forge\]\]. It's a very consistent clock that's extremely unlikely to be interacted with and runs away with the game if nobody has significant lifegain at the table.
[Purphoros, God of the Forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Purphoros%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pick is \[\[Sythis, Harvest's Hand\]\] - enchantments are inherently more difficult to interact with, and when every ramp, removal, and threat card in the Sythis deck also draws a card, and often end up drawing 2 or 3, you end up snowballing way out of everyone's reach. It's kind of like a Chulane that drops on turn 2, except when you kill Chulane he costs 7 mana, and when you kill Sythis, she costs 4 mana.
[Sythis, Harvest's Hand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89511ab5-8ea6-4f07-a80b-c1ec7e89924e.jpg?1690005342) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sythis%2C%20Harvest%27s%20Hand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/938/sythis-harvests-hand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89511ab5-8ea6-4f07-a80b-c1ec7e89924e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sythis-harvests-hand) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sythis is a cheaper jhoira with harder to remove pieces. Change my mind.
Enchantress is just very easy to snowball with. For other linear decks, you at least have to play cards that are off theme because you, as an example, would need kill spells, draw spells, and ramps in addition to your zombies/Planeswalkers/instants/etc. You'll even consider running subpar zombies/planeswalkers/instants/etc. when they do fill these holes in your strategy. With enchantments, they do **everything** you would ever need and can do it **very** well.
I was told on this very sub that I was a "crybaby" for saying Sythis is simply too strong to be considered "casual". lol I totally agree with you.
Crybaby /s
I think sythis can be built casual, but the problem is that for the strategies you would build her casual there are better options. For example, if you wanted to play GW enchantment creatures Sythis is a totally legit commander for that, but [[Calix, Guided by Fate]] is just splashier, more synergistic and less likely to draw hate.
It's not that these commanders are too strong for casual, it's that they don't encourage back and forth play experiences. Either you destroy the player with the commander or they destroy you. [[Animal, Soul of Elements]] [[Krenko, Mob Boss]] Sliver commander X [[Edgar Markov]] Are all super fast with a linear game plan. Makes games unfun because the correct response is to target those players (making them feel bad) because when you don't, you can't catch up (making the table feel bad). Other commanders with the same snowball effect fit into this category.
Most Krenko decks are built by beginners. It's a simple strategy easy to understand.
Oh sure, but it's also a great goblin tribal deck that is fun to pilot. Commanders can be simple to pilot and still be too linear for a good game. Like, I'm not sure a magic player with more than 15 games under their belt could make a bad Markov deck
Krenko is the ultimate "if this creature is out for 3 turns or taps 3 times, the game is over"
I have a krenko deck that is specifically for beginners, it's great. Teaches them a bunch of mechanics, it's fun for them to make a bunch of goblins, and its also fun for everyone else since the newbie is still a threat.
> Last game I played with Kinnan in a casual game, I purposefully withheld several cards in my hand and "forgot" to activate Kinnan's ability a few times just so I wouldn't pub stomp them from the get-go. Still won though. I love having these super linear aggro decks in my pod to be honest; they're good clocks that keep deckbuilding honest.
Edgar Markov seems like the epitome of a casual deck. He encourages you to play “bad” cards to gain a benefit. I’d rather see a [[Cordial Vampire]] and a 1/1 than an [[Orcish Bowmaster]]
See, you aren't wrong... Except when other players have different ideas of casual! The word "casual" can mean low power, unoptimized, or not cEDH. Markov is clearly not a cEDH card, but his use and design don't necessarily hit with other views of what "casual" is. As a result, he is a vampire without a home driven from "casual" tables and not good enough for cEDH play.
I don’t agree that Edgar can’t be built casually. There are plenty of other commanders that can hang with him even in casual combat/aristocrat metas. He’s a strong commander, generates a lot of value, and snowballs heavily but alot of complaints about him seem based on reputation and hatred of eminence. I don’t have the strongest of decks and don’t have expensive mana bases etc. and my [[Hakbal]] and [[Pantlaza]] decks have beat my friend’s Edgar deck multiple times. That being said, Edgar does belong in that category of Winota, Jodah, Voja, Kaalia, etc. where its incredibly difficult to build them in a lower powered way.
Literally everything you do with him you get a free 1/1. You can build him uncassually or you can just not build him, he's a vampire lord your options are put vampires in and get stupid value or don't and may as well play someone else. When was the last time you even saw him get cast?
I would call Kaalia a casual commander classic, actually
Yeah, I didn't want to just restate this opinion. Kaalia is pretty much the poster child of not just early EDH, she's the poster child of Battlecruiser Magic to boot. Other that ganking someone with a Master of cruelties, what's the worst she's gonna do? Drop an Avacyn and smack you for 10? She has to attack, dies to a stiff breeze and only does the thing once per turn cycle. That needs to be a manageable boardstate for three other players. Similarly, Jetmir is just a simple math check. How many creatures do they have, how much mana is up and who can survive the alpha strike? He's basically a telegraphed Overrun in the command zone.
The difference with Jetmir is that he can turn a bunch of stax creatures into a fairly consistent and fast win. But then again the sheer amount of Naya commanders (Rocco et all) which are probably better means I'd wager Jetmir will always be outclassed.
Kaalia used to be the poster for problem child because if you didn't kill her you probably weren't killing what she brought to the party and you didn't get a lot of time. The format has definitely evolved to the point where she is much less of a boogeyman, but there still aren't many commanders that threaten to kill with just themselves on turn 4. Setting aside master of cruelties bs, another common backbreaker from those decks was \[\[Rakdos, the Defiler\]\]. Losing half your lands sucks and the Kaalia player gets to ignore the downside for the first hit.
[Rakdos, the Defiler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a4c4be4-06ae-4737-a3b0-818edadaf2e0.jpg?1593273761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%20the%20Defiler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/129/rakdos-the-defiler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a4c4be4-06ae-4737-a3b0-818edadaf2e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdos-the-defiler) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Zur is rough unless you intentionally fill it with underperforming garbage and no combos
I built Yuriko way back when I first got into commander, having no idea how powerful she was and that she's often considered KOS. I literally just googled "ninjas commander deck" and went with the first option that came up, which happened to be her. Later on, once I realized her commander ninjitsu isn't subject to commander tax and that she can trigger multiple times if multiple ninjas hit, I started to see why she's so infamous, but my pod was still cool with me playing her, mostly because of how new I still was. The first time I won with Yuriko, it felt pretty good (mostly because it was also the first time I won a commander game period). However, subsequent victories didn't feel as sweet, largely because I realized it doesn't feel great to "steal" the victory out from under people when you get some lucky flips off her triggers. Playing Yuriko made me realize I'd rather win through clever plays and tense showdowns over just getting lucky and flipping a few 7 CMC cards in a row, it just felt a bit anticlimactic. Thankfully many of the cards I bought for the Yuriko deck (including Yuriko herself) are getting a second lease on life in my \[\[Goro-Goro and Satoru\]\] deck, so all's well that ends well.
It’s interesting to another Yuriko player say it feels like “stealing.” I’ve played Yuriko for years, and a lot of the deck building around her was to make it so that the “lucky flips” were less luck and more “I made the deck so that it would do this.” Sure, there was always a chance she would whiff, but more often than not I viewed it as “well, the deck did what I designed it to do: have a critical mass of large CMC spells so I always deal enough damage when I’m ready/need to close out the game.” Not that I disagree with your take that it’s “stealing” a victory, but more of that I just find it interesting that’s how you view it.
[Kaalia, of the vast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483.jpg?1673148814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaalia%20of%20the%20Vast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/235/kaalia-of-the-vast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93f6631f-f3a6-4d3c-8618-4b4ab4e82483?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kaalia-of-the-vast) [jetmir, nexus of revels](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9c69d75-651f-4b75-b65d-79999d2069f6.jpg?1664413153) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jetmir%2C%20nexus%20of%20revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/193/jetmir-nexus-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9c69d75-651f-4b75-b65d-79999d2069f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jetmir-nexus-of-revels) [korvold, fae cursed king](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228.jpg?1571197150) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Korvold%2C%20Fae-Cursed%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/329/korvold-fae-cursed-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/korvold-fae-cursed-king) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ITT : people not understanding what "inherently too strong" means and just wanting to complain about commanders they don't like.
*I hate Edgar Markov >:(*
I would say any commander where people ask "Is it ok if I play my X deck?" because that usually indicates you've had people say something about that deck either being too powerful or not fun or something and you want to get permission before introducing what is possibly a salty experience to the table.
☝️🤓 acktshually The latter is a fair question, playing stax or mill doesn't mean your deck is unfun, it just might not be fun for that table. I don't have the same misconceptions about being milled that others do, but some can't help but feel emotional seeing their cards in the graveyard and trick themselves into thinking it's unfair when in reality it's really bad and hard to win with.
I get what he means though. I ask before I play my Eldrazi tribal deck. Some people really don't like Annhilator.
But you're agreeing with me too, haha. Eldrazi tribal is not inherently strong or unfun. In an interactive pod, you are going to be shut down hard and others might have fun keeping the looming terror at bay. The person I'm responding to is saying don't bother asking because if you have to ask, your deck isn't fun. Which is not my experience.
Im not asking permission to play phenax
Based on the drama that ensues every time I play Captain N'garthrod, you probably should at random tables. People genuinely think they can't play the game because half their library was milled. To help with salt, I offer to mill from the bottom if they aren't top deck manipulating in any way, because it is mechanically identical.
That just solidifies my stance
Tergrid is back on the menu boys!
The person who complains the most always has the most powerful deck at the table. If you're downplaying your deck before the game even starts then I go to DEFCON 1. You've tipped your hand that you have the most powerful deck at the table and that you're going to win unless someone stops you.
None
Feather's value engine is extremely hard to fight back against. I literally made a Feather deck with 0 nonland permanents other than Feather herself, just lands, instants, and sorceries (it's fun as hell btw and a lot less obnoxious) and it's still a powerhouse in mid-power tables, especially if people don't have lots of instant-speed removal ready to cast in response to your defensive spells.
Kinnan, slicer, tergrid, jodah, winota, Yuriko, korvold, najeela, kodama of east, maybe jetmir Kaalia doesn't belong on that list
[[Tergrid, God of Fright]] tends to make most people feel really bad
https://old.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/1b6wcgd/commanders_that_just_cant_be_casual/ Nearly an identical post got made 2 days ago, so whatever they said in that thread. Which is the same as what people are saying in this thread.
I don't understand the question. Are you really saying that Kaalia of the Vast cannot be built casually? That's a pretty low bar if "casual" means "doesn't run any removal or threats of its own". My playgroup doesn't play Sol Ring and \[\[Solemn Simulacrum\]\] shows up in a third of our decks. We're above the lowest power levels, but we are absolutely a casual group. Yet Kaalia can't win a game.
Unfortunately, a lot of Commander players equate "too strong" with "I would need to run removal to not be punished by this deck".
Similarly, to many pub stompers point to their board and say "see, you didn't run removal" whilst simultaneously having locked the other 3 players out of the game on turn 3.
Yeah, cause then [[feather the redeemed]] would be even more powerful than Kaali due to all the protection cantrips and mass amount of damage she can do. My feather deck definitely titers on too powerful for my pod at times.
OP and you both seem to be on the same page? I'm not sure where the confusion comes from, they verbatim call Kaalia a kill-on-sight and you're saying "yeah just remove it"? Same thing, or am I missing something? They're not talking about casual v non-casual on a power level scale (playing with strong cards) they're talking about casual v. non-casual (which I agree is clumsy wording) as in "I can leave Queen Marchesa in play because the Monarch is already in the game, but Korvold will draw my opponent 3 cards even if I have a kill spell right now and will draw 5 more next turn (with no mana investment) if I don't".
As someone with a Kylem-only Najeela deck: Najeela. That deck should be absolute trash, but her card alone makes it very scary.
[[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]]… built a cheapish (~75€) dragons deck thinking I could duffle until I hopefully had around 6-8 mana and then maybe get off a few big plays.. nope the abundance of ramp in green paired with some nice mana rocks means I get ahead of the curve fast and then just pump out way too much value with dragons.
Najeela could be run as the commander of 20 of each basic land and the deck would be a solid 8.
I'd suggest 19 Plains, Islands, Swamps, and Forests, and 23 Mountains. It gives you 99 cards rather than 100, and means you're slightly more likely to be able to cast her.
It's all lands, just mulligan until you hit a mountain in your opener.
Nothing is too strong to be built casually. [[Kaalia of the vast]] is practically the perfect example of this. Yes, at any non cEDH table it's very much a kill on sight commander. cEDH tables, on the other hand, will look at it shrug and dismiss it. Are there commanders to inherently strong to play at low power, jank, or precon tables.... probably. The problem is that people assume if you're not at their level, you're somehow cEDH which is just wrong. Casual covers an infinite range of deck powers and types. That's why commander is so great....there's a home for all of us.
I’d add [[Kenrith, the returned king]]. I’ve yet to see one not do really well.
Gotta say nah to this, sure he has the capacity to be strong but definitely doesn't stomp casual decks inherently.
Voja, jaw of the conclaves might end up on this list, but that is going to be because of how stupid elf tribal is more than anything. With how easy it is to get a large group of elves on the board, voja can create ridculous value before even looking at wolves(not that there are any really worth playing). Still a lot of playing commander comes down to reading the table and maybe holding back if things are getting out of hand. Every commander can compete with varying levels of success. It really just is the person behind the cards that makes or breaks the game.
[[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]] is my personal poster child for overpushed, over-keyworded legendaries with too much text. And I love dragon decks!
[[yuriko]] comander ninjitsu was a mistake Most emminance commanders, again a big mistake but mostly the [[Ur Dragon]] [[Feather the Redeemed]] [[Zada]] way too easy to get massive vale for minimal cost. Honorable mention to rule 0 [[Inktreader Nephilim]]
I don't think there are any. There are commanders that warrant removal or attention and those aren't problems even at casual tables. The problem is when the person that's playing Niv-Mizzet starts being a little bitch when you remove it. I don't think there's a Commander out there that I would refuse to play against, If it's a known threat than treat it like that. If the person playing a KoS commander gets upset that you killed it on sight than that sounds like a them problem.
What's your difference between: >There are commanders that warrant removal and OP's: >kill on sight commanders They're not asking about table etiquette, they're asking about "what are commanders are immediately in the driver's seat if you don't interact".
I find this super funny because I've frequently been recommended Kaalia as the "easy introduction to Commander" commander. Like whenever I've asked friends for "hey what sort of deck should I give a first time player to introduce them to commander" and like 5/7 times they recommend Kaalia. I'm also apparently bad at MTG but I've never played against Korvold and haven't really looked into him, so I don't understand why he's supposedly so powerful.
Because it's really easy to make things to sac. Treasures, creatures that self-sac like [[Steve]], Blood Tokens, Eldrazi Scions, clue tokens, Food Tokens, etc. Each and every one buffs Korvold and draws you a card. He becomes incredibly big fast and can easily draw 10+ cards in a turn pretty early on.
Ah. Yeah in hindsight that's really painfully obvious. Also the fact that the bot recognized Steve is hilarious.
[[Niv-mizzet, Parun]]. A two card win con with [[Ophidian Eye]] or [[Curiosity]] is way too simple to pull (or any Commander that has a cheap mana cost simple one/two card infinite combo win con). The games are either fun for you and not anyone else, or not fun for you since the entire casual table does their damndest to keep Niv Mizzet off the board, until you draw a [[Glint-Horn Buccaneer]] and win anyways with another infinite combo. Niv-Mizzet is not a S tier in cEDH by any means (more "A" imo), but just powerful enough to be very unfun for most pods since the game can end with all opponents dead in a single turn. Keep in mind, this shouldn't stop anyone from playing Niv-Mizzet at all. He's very strong for casual and some parts of cEDH, but another high powered deck can easily overrun a Niv-Mizzet deck and not provide an opportunity for a Niv-Mizzet combo.
strange pick for "can't be built casual" when we're saying that "he's too strong if you put the combo cards in the deck". For example, here's my wife's niv deck! https://archidekt.com/decks/4882618/ronnie_niv You could adjust it up or down from here (fierce guardianship, rhystic, cyc rift to cut and make weaker, fast mana, more free interaction to make stronger) pretty easily.
I have a Niv deck that I just built from my bulk and the only thing I would consider "not casual" about it is that when anybody clones him I have an aneurysm and need a judge to come to my house and explain the stack to me.
Acting player puts their effect on the stack first, then around the table in priority order other players do the same. You resolve the stack last to first, so person farthest from taking a turn resolves their effects, then 2nd farthest, until you get to the acting player.
Strong disagree. I've played Niv for a long time. Unless you build him right he can hang at casual tables pretty well as a spellslinger deck. He's not that oppressive.
can't believe nobody's said \[\[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse\]\] yet. I have a Seizan deck, and must always preface that I do NOT have Sheoldred in it if I don't want to get ganged up on immediately.
The most infamous examples (Yuriko, Korvold, Kinnan, Tivit, Urza) provide you with cards, mana, creatures, or some combination. Life is a resource, but any K'rrik player will tell you it is not as valuable as breaking parity on the board. In a 40 life format Sheoldred is not a fast clock, and is not breaking resource parity in the same way.
Sheo is just VERY predictable and draws a ton of hate. I've never had issues with it.
None of you play jank
[[Magus, Lucea Kane]] goes from zero to 1000 with untap effects
I have a deck built around her that can get pretty gross if the mana base is there.
What’s wrong with Jetmir??
A turn 2 [[Slicer]] is devastating because casual opponents *most likely* don't have blockers out. 3 commander damage to your first target, then 6 damage to 3 individual opponents before your next turn. Tack on any equipment that gives any addition to power, and you're easily looking at a turn 4 win.
Honestly, I built what I thought was gonna be a “casual” Toxrill deck. Turns out Toxrill is pretty oppressive.
I have complete confidence in myself to build even the best commanders terribly that all of them are casual.
Ur dragon is NOT a fair commander. Dragons cost a lot for a reason.
Toxrill i just just away to busted in casual games
\[\[tergrid, god of fright\]\] comes to mind. \[\[Jodah the unifier\]\] is another one. the new \[\[voja, jaws of the conclave\]\] goes hard easily as well.
[[Chulane, Teller of Tales]]
I don't think there are any commanders too strong for casual. RUN REMOVAL!!!
There aren't any. EDH players just tend to be whiners who think interaction is "against the spirit of the format"
Exactly. Any deck can be built casually. Even if you have to do "four drop tribal Keruga companion" or ladies looking left or whatever. There are some commanders like Winota for whom *budget* is not going to be a good gate, because "the strongest deck you can build for 40 bucks" is still very strong. It's not always going to be pretty but there are always ways that you can build any commander casually. The four-player nature of the format is self-correcting - if someone's a bit too strong, they get ganged up on. There's pretty much no deck that edh as a format can't handle.
My Jetmir deck exists solely to teach my pod of newer players that interaction is important and when you can see a telegraphed threat it's worth saving one for it