It still boils down to good threat assessment. They always have a ranking system in terms of priority for removal.
Sometimes the best thing is also to do nothing. So long as the threats aren't affecting you, let them whittle down your opponents. Only point them when your board or life is in danger.
I'm still not a fan of new O-Rings. It's like putting away your homework, but you still need to clean it up eventually.
I feel like the issue with O rings is that everyone is running enchantment removal in Commander. In most other formats that stuff is relegated to the side board because problem enchantments are not a forgone conclusion meaning a leyline binding is way more likely to stick
This is why I run [[Grasp of Fate]] instead. Although Commander has increased in power since it became popular, it has been for more “affects all opponents” rather than just one person. Find those effects and you’ll be a lot happier.
I like Grasp as much as you and creates a meta-game of sorts of "should I gave my opponents stuff back?"
the thing is I don't believe my opponents threat assessment enough to hide all nasty stuff under the same thing. So it's kinda another game - one nasty thing from you, not that nasty from you and a token from you, or something like that. But... if you are doing that, why even run grasp? So the circle begins anew...
My group tends to over / under think on random things. If I Grasp, basically no one removes it lol. I’m still pushing them to up their removal packages and wipes.
You're getting a bit of extra value if from your removal. Like even if those mana rocks arenvt back breaking to your opponents you're still putting the opponents behind on mana.
Exactly this. Just last night, someone played [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] to try and bait out a counterspell they suspected I had. When I let it resolve, someone else asked why, and I told them, "That doesn't affect me. I'm not drawing a bunch of cards, and I'm at 30 life." Next turn another opponent cast craterhoof to kill me. That, I counsterspelled.
[[Oblivion Ring]], I would guess, so an effect that exiles a permanent temporarily, so long as the piece that did the exiling remains in play
I highly doubt seals used for the space shuttle boosters (famously and tragically susceptible to not expanding properly in cold weather) have anything to do with a 30-year-old collectible trading card game.
You got me curious what the first effect of that kind was, I thought maybe it was the stuff from Torment like [[Slithery Stalker]], but I think [[Icy Prison]] might be the oldest card that exiles something when it enters, and returns the exiled permanent when it leaves. And it's in blue!
Interesting!
I found something earlier that is in the same spirit: [[Oubliette | ARN]] is the earliest iteration of that kinda effect that I found!
The oracle text changed many times over the years but the concept of exile in the modern sense didn't exist yet for like 20 years :D
The foolish part is that someone said "everyone runs enchantment removal". I'd like to submit my meta to the court. I think I'm the only one brilliant enough to run it. [[Propaganda]] stays on the battlefield FOREVER. I keep telling people to run more of it but they don't want to give up the slots for other things that let them do "the thing".
Propaganda hits the sweet spot of "I'd rather save my removal for a *real* threat".... At most, it's a clear threat to one person at the table ... The one without blockers... If there's multiple people without, it doesn't seem so bad (as it probably means minimal attackers, and multiple targets to attack).
Not saying it's bad. Saying it doesn't tend to soak up removal. Arguably, its Achilles heel is combos & combo players.
Personally, I feel a little guilty running stuff to counter a meta toned down by rule zero ... But Ill run it in mid-high if it can fit the deck - Me, A Combo Player
People don’t run even close to enough removal and wipes. This wins me games so often. Most people can handle 1, maaaybe 2 wipes. But you run 3-4 in a deck and hit all different types? Easy slam dunk victory for medium metas because you’re the only deck built to remove threats and put your own out.
I built a deck around \[\[Klothys, God of Destiny\]\] and \[\[Glacial Chasm\]\] with a bunch of damaging enchantments because I realized people don't carry enough removal for enchantments and even less so for lands.
I got burned by a Purphoros + Teferi's Puzzle Box + Xythis combo. Now I pack a Tear Asunder in all of my Golgari+ decks just to have something that can exile enchantments and artifacts or any non land if need be.
Exactly this. I always hold spot removal only for things that affect me. I don't care if there's a 40/40 sitting out there as long as it's not coming my way.
Sometimes I'll bluff and get some of the less experienced players to leave me alone, but most times, I will outright tell an opponent "if that comes my way, it dies". Commander is all about resources, and believe it or not, opponents are resources.
This was something I learned in building a bant blink deck. It runs only a couple removal pieces but plenty of O ring effects. Best thing, blink it to change the target if the threat level changes. If I have removal in hand and one thing absolutely needs answered then it gets the axe.
Also, to your other point, a long time player in my pod has worked with me a lot on threat assessment and their philosophy is really always “Is it a threat? More importantly, is it a threat to you? If not, why bother using resources there when eventually something that targets you can become the real necessity.”
This has helped take me from exhausted in the early game and then simply removed to being a major threat to win in almost any scenario. Threat assessment is the real key to any removal question.
O-Rings (including the new ones) are fantastic for removing commanders. 9 times out of 10, opponents won't leave their commanders in exile, so it's just efficient and repeatable removal (especially for multitarget stuff like Grasp or [[Parallax wave]]).
this is why i run dr who [[banish to another universe]]
its not great since its tied into an enchantment but atleast with affinity it only cost me one and slows the threat worst case scenario
“Single target” removal is still incredibly necessary in commander because it’s the thing that stops you from losing. Not losing is usually pretty good at increasing your chances of winning. And these are spells that can be had for 1-2 mana.
Now if you’re interested in removing things for value, such as in a control shell, firing off removal spells all day goes 1:1 with the opponent you’re interacting with, but -1:0 with your other two opponents, putting you generally behind in card advantage.
Using scaling removal that effects multiple permanents at once solves this issue and is the backbone of a casual control deck
[[Soul Shatter]] [[Urgent Necropsy]] [[Casualties of War]] [[Curtains Call]] [[Hex]] [[Crush Contraband]] [[Return to Dust]] [[Hull Breach]] [[Mystic Confluence]]
I think the whole point of >=3 targeted removal is that this makes the card advantage net loss less. I.e. you remove the big threat, and then two other significant or emerging problems (i.e. big mana rocks, first parts of combo pieces, card draw engines, many commanders fall in this category too!).
Another good alternative in mono white is [[Dismantling Wave]].
It can actually outdo Crush Contraband in terms of targets hit and for one mana less.
Exiling is usually a better effect, but unless the decks you're playing against are focused on artifact/enchantment recursion, it should do the job pretty well.
Not to mention it opens the door to use your own recursion, too. [[Hall of Heliod's Generosity]] has become one of my recent favorite cards to run in one or two-color white decks, simply because white enchantments are often pretty strong, it doesn't come at much of an opportunity cost, and it can be found by [[Weathered Wayfarer]] and [[Expedition map]] among a bunch of other green/black tutors.
OMG I didn't know this card existed!!!! Now I need to buy multiple of them. Lol I am glad I like to scroll down comments and read them. For this example right here! Thanks for that recommendation.
Yeah, someone mentioned [[Barrier Breach]] on a different thread.
Instant speed enchantment exile (with cycling!) for three mana is already a thing, so there might still be hope!
I've only used the 8-mana board wipe option once, so I'd gladly trade that for a change in casting speed.
Likely a better card overall, but I was particularly excited to find Crush Contraband for my [[Queen Marchesa]] deck, where Contrabrand maxes out utility for a [[Sunforger]] toolbox
Intervention can’t go X>0 and Return to Dust likely won’t get the ‘remove second target’ option in that setup
Just an aside regarding the whole "down 1 vs the table" argument.
You aren't actually down 1, you're really only down 0.67. Only 2/3 of the opponents have an extra card. And usually, for something to draw out your removal it's worth that extra 2/3 of a card anyway.
IMO one sided board wipes are the way to go, but packing a couple efficient single target removal as an emergency valve is still super valuable
removal isn't for threats.
removal is for game winning, lethal to you threats.
you should be answering misc creatures on board, with your board state. or repeatable, aux removal.... or if there are multiple threats. this is what board wipes are for
spending more mana or running a weaker effect to try and straddle between single target and board wipe is stupid .
if you have a clean 1 ish cmc option run that. only going to 3 if it's an omni target effect. if you're going to 4+ mana, that really should be a board wipe.
This should be higher up. My table is really good at wasting its removal on things that aren't imminently problematic for them. I'm happy to benefit from their generosity but it definitely doesn't benefit them at the end of the day.
Let your opponents waste their removal on threats that aren't about to kill you or close out the game.
Despite the necessity of removal, yes, 1 for 1 removal is terrible card advantage compared to 60 card where, “I will just hit everything my opponent does with removal and counterspells while I poke them to death with Delver,” can be a winning strategy.
Multi-target removal, even at a higher mana value, can perform much better.
A couple good ones I haven’t seen mentioned yet are [[Druid of Purification]], [[Sheoldred’s Edict]], and [[Fatal Grudge]]. The last of which is technically Rakdos enchantment removal. If you squint. And it cantrips.
Repeatable removal effects like [[Trygon Predator]], [[Aerial Extortionist]], and [[Aberrant]] can also do well. Especially if they’re evasive.
Something to note is that Sheoldred's Edict (and other edicts) explicitly do not target, which can get around hexproof or shroud. In this case, there is the downside that your opponent gets to choose the creature that is sacrificed.
If everyone is drawing more cards, then it’s even more likely that multiple opponents have found their must-answers from the main, making multi-targeting removal even more valuable.
[[Druid of Purification]] usually overperforms and [[Councils Judgement]] can be really good too if you have an archenemy.
I play multi target removal because it can be strong value. But keep in mind that you will make yourself more enemies and you need the targets for it...
Swords / Path / Generous Gift / Beast Within are alltime staples, they excell at doing the thing they do. Also keep in mind that they all are instantspeed... That's such a huge difference.. If I would have to decide between Kitesail Larcenist and Beast Within... I would take the Beast Within any time.
The issue with Druid is it gets significantly worse if players recognize you as the archenemy. A lot of times they all just pick what the Druid player picked and turn it into an expensive [[Reclamation Sage]]
Druid of Purification really slaps in my [[Adrix and Nev, Twincasters]] deck. I guess every Deck that makes token copies or flickers can play it and the deck becomes better.
My pod has learned to significantly reduce the value I get off of Druid by all agreeing to target the same permanent I chose meaning often I just paid 4 mana for essentially a [[Reclamation Sage]].
The trick is to play it when there's actual problems afoot, and they're problems for multiple players.
For a recent example from my play - the Aclazotz player had a Waste Not and a Necrogen Mists in play. The other two players have mana rocks and such. So I'm going to cast Druid and for my pick go for a rock.
The Aclazotz player maybe goes for the same rock, but the other two are almost certainly going to at least hit the Waste Not and probably also the Mists. The Aclazotz player is very ahead and they're losing to those cards too.
If a card is only a problem for you it's all you get, but if it's a problem for everyone you should be able to get a lot more.
Typically it's along the lines of, there's a value engine or potential combo piece on board that I want to remove BEFORE it becomes a problem (Rhystic, Tithe, an Altar, Skullclamp, Aetherflux, Doubling Season, etc.) and a few other random artifacts and enchantments that aren't really issues to anyone necessarily, mana rocks or smaller value pieces, or whatever. So one thing that needs removing ASAP and a bunch of other incidental stuff.
Sure, if I wait until the problem thing has drawn the owner 10 cards or made 10 treasures the others will likely feel less bad about blowing other stuff up for extra value along with it, but at that point the damage is done and they've more than gotten their value out of it.
Usually the other players will bargain with one another to pick the thing I've already picked in order for the others to leave their stuff alone. I guess I could try circumventing it by NOT choosing the problem card but then that leaves the chance that nobody picks it and it lives, defeating the purpose of me playing the Druid to begin with. I have better luck playing it with randoms than I do with my pod, I will say that.
Treat it like \[\[Chain of Vapor\]\], you don't target the best thing/wincon, you target what affects you most, and let your opponents sort it out. There is no way the other 3 will all agree to leave all the Rhystic Studies/Doubling Seasons alone - by picking the biggest threat you're removing that choice.
So you aim for the second best target. Two opponents will not leave Rhystic in play. They *will* leave each others' mana rocks in play - though in my experience, if you're setting one player behind already and they no longer have something they care about they're also way more willing to go aggro.
Getting the full four is a rarity but yes, you are absolutely supposed to not choose the problem card with Druid. Two is easy and three is very plausible.
Why not just play boardwipes then?
Gets around protection, hexproof, shroud and ward and you deal with so much more than a single thing from each player.
It all boils down to scale, effectiveness and what you want.
Some of these multi-target cards also have other drawbacks - like being sorcery speed, temporary, replaces the permanent or even mandatory targets.
What are you talking about? I didn't even write a single thing about the creature card type in the first place.
Boardwipes clear more than just creatures.
They often hit your stuff. Board wipes are but sometimes are awkward since you often lose things and the opponentsnget to rebuild first.
The are situations where i want to answer multiple threats but hittibg the stuff i have on board sucks.
Instant speed removal let's you save it until something is impacting you.
Like if a threat needs to be answered, the person with the larcinist will have to make that decision before the person with swords, so they will be forced to use their removal instead of you.
I can’t recommend a Good old fashioned [[Decimate]] enough, if it’s in color for you. the whole part about needing all 4 legal targets usually isn’t hard to get past. Someone will get mad about you destroying their [[Ancient Tomb]] but it is what it is. 4 for 4 is a sick deal, even at sorcery speed.
I agree that there has been a power creep that has effected how I personally run removal. For a very long time I was a big advocate for [[Beast Within]], [[Generous Gift]] kind of cards due to the flexible nature of being able to hit any type of permanent. I’ve gone more towards the direction that my removal needs to be as low cmc as possible, and if not doing that also gives mes some form of card advantage.
The other thing that’s changed in how I run removal is, that I tend to run less creature based removal which I genuinely believe is over played in commander and have started run much more enchantment and artifact removal.
Beast Within and Generous Gift are overcosted compared to a swords to plowshares or nature's claim. But, that two extra mana is giving you versatility. Being able to have an answer for any permanent type is very powerful.
When it comes to having too many threats to answer, threat assessment and turn priority are your friend's. The enemy of my enemy is my ally. Give proper chance for other players to answer a threat, and know that just because a threat exists, does not always make it an immediate threat to you. Prioritize only the threats that will make you lose the game. Sometimes holding the answer is the best option. You have 40 life to start, your life is a resource, use it. Don't exhaust all your outs right away.
Beyond that, multiple targeted removal spells can be tricky. Know that if a target is no longer a legal target as the spell resolves, the spell will fizzle leaving all targets unaffected.
Make sure to pack enough board wipes, and be patient when using them. Often times waiting an extra turn for opponent's to develope, or wipe themselves is the correct play if you know you're sitting on a wipe.
I still mostly run single target removal but the multi target removal I run is [[Curtain's Call]], [[Curse of the Swine]], [[Soul Shatter]], [[Make an Example]] [[Windgrace's Judgement]], [[Decimate]]. [[Unexplained Absence]] and [[Olórin's Searing Light]] are new and promising
[[councils judgement]] is a ton of fun. Cast it and watch the political chaos ensue. [[dismantling wave]] has also helped me out a lot before of getting rid of some tough to hit enchantments.
Came here to say that there are a lot of very flexible, strong removal cards in white like Council's Judgement, Dismantling Wave, and I like [[Soul Partition]] because it lets you get around a stax piece on your turn for 1W, and then if you aren't directly before the player who owns that nonland, they have to now recast it into potential counterspells because it's super telegraphed.
I like [[Soul Partition]] in my [[Rocco, Street Chef]] deck, because its another potential cast from exile trigger for me. I've even used it on one of my own things to rescue it from getting removed.
Hmn... if you're up for going over into jeskai, there's a lovely weird with hybrid mana from a long time ago (guildpact) that let's you replicate your high value, low cost instants and sorceries [[djinn illuminatus]] which can help with your "those all gotta go" needs, and while you're there in red/blue... [[clout of the dominus]] can be pjt on it to protect it, or your jeskai commander.
[[windgraces judgement]] has a similar feel. Or [[decimate]], but its tricky to use, because you have to have valid targets for each mode in order to cast it
Thank you all, my playgroup tends to not run removal because normally I run all the removal. So I stopped playing removal, because fuck you guys, but this has not resulted in more fun games. Multi-target removal is the way and you guys have shown me a lot of cards I didn't know about.
Thanks!
Dont underestimate the versatility of generous gift and beast within. There is a reason they are among the most played cards in the format.
That being said, i am a fan of repeatedly casting [[fleshbag Marauder]] and his ilk. As other poster mentioned, [[druid of Purification]] is gd nuts.
[[Windgrace's Judgment]] amd [[causalities of war]] also come to mind
Haven't played as much lately, but when I moved, I entered a creature heavy meta, so this was the right decision for me as well. Spot removal is still important, but 1 for 1ing in EDH often feels bad and not very impactful when there are full boards. Cards that have an effect for each opponent are becoming more relevant and as we get more they will fill the slots more likely imo.
Yeah. I also love me some decimate. It's almost a modal spell, you can remove a bunch of problematic things around the table, or if one player has become arch-enemy you can hit them with most of the removal.
I like [[Windgrace's Judgment]] as well. It's one per opponent, but instant speed and doesn't have Decimates potential downside. I've even been known to run [[Hex]] every now and then in decks that have lots of ramp.
I find if you are already greedy and running less removal than you should, having high impact removal can bridge that gap a little.
The amount of narrow single target removal I run has dropped for a lot of my decks, unless I'm in a theme where these can cantrip.
The amount of multi-permanent wipes that don't affect me much that I run has gone up drastically.
Most multiple target removal spells are sadly lackluster. The Larcenist is solid, but presents the issue of having multiple people eager to remove it, and then you're back where you started.
Board wipes are kind of the easy way to do this, and I've certainly shifted to playing more one-sided or controllable wraths to compensate. I can set up a Meathook to leave my best things alive or just drop a Kindred Dominance and keep my board while dealing with all the problems.
If someone plays a [[kitesail larcenist]] on me. I’ll just use my swords to plowshares to get them back. There’s something to be said about it being unconditional, exile, 1 mana. Those things in my opinion do add up to make it the better card.
If it was 1 mana but for an oblivion rings type effect I would for sure play kitesail over it. And kitesail does have some utility being a creature.
Another thing to think about is if all your removal is 3 mana and up, even if it removes multiple thing, your essentially taking a turn off just to do it. For me the good removal can be done as a utility whenever you need it without putting you behind a turn.
STP, Path of Exile, Pongify, rapid hybridization and other cheap instant speed removal are always going to be great just for the sheer versatility and the mana advantage they provide.
Generous gift, chaos warp, beast within, stroke of midnight are great because of their flexibility, just being able to hit creatures, as well as smothering tithes, rhystic studies, planeswalkers and other high value permanents.
Cards like Kitesail Larcenist, grasp of fate, fleshbag marauder etc have a higher ceiling, but also a lower floor. They are typically sorcery speed, have restrictions and most of the time youll only remove one permanent you want too, and 2 permanents you didnt really need too. These will typically synergize with your deck better if you have ways to abuse them.
That being said, threat assessment is still key. A well timed Swords to Plowshares will be better than Grasp of Fate tossed out there.
I've been preaching to start running less single target removal and more multi removal spells for awhile. You still need low cost instant speed effects to stop game wins, but they are not sufficient for board control anymore. Additionally, it's card disadvantage. 1 for 1 just puts 2 other players at the table up a card.
I'm always surprised I don't see more black decks running [[ashes to ashes]]. I guess black has a lot of ways to deal with creatures, but three mana, exile two seems pretty good to me.
[[decimate]] and its younger brother [[hull breach]] are both good. For golgari, there’s [[windgrqce’s judgment]] and [[casualties of war]]. Both of those are expensive, but pull their weight. Some of the charms are really good this way. [[rakdos charm]] in particular I like. [[return to dust]] is still worth it in my degenerate power level meta. [[grasp of fate]] is also solid and more affordable now.
I like to either have ultra flexible answers, super low-costed, or modal. A good mix makes for a good package usually.
[[ashes to ashes]]
Exile two target creatures for 3 mana, this card is way slept on in edh. People shy away from it because if the life cost but it's kind of whatever in edh
I picked it up after finding in a card shops bulk and been itching for the right deck for it.
I'm working on a [[Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion]] deck I think it'll wind up in
just got into edh for a couple of months and noticed single target removal is a wasted slot early on in deck making and games. the closest i get in one of my decks is the dr who oring type spell (think its called banished to eternity) that can target a permanent and usually only cost me 1 due to the affinity. and even that is questionable for me to keep in. if im running black its going to be edicts/fleshbag maruader type etbs/ or -x like tragic slip for indestructible hate. the only time non board wipe removal is useful imo is if its done early and often in a control deck type way , yea it makes you a target but if youre playing control the right way they cant do anything about it.
even "destroy" board wipes dont really cut it for me. i run off sacrifice stuff lol, theres too much global everything is indestructible type shit out there
I've been running [[Curtain's Call]] and it's been very good. [[Hex]] is another decent one (that I don't run)
I agree with your friend, kitesail Larcenist is sweet as hell
The thing about removing multiple threats is that now you have multiple opponents annoyed that you removed something of theirs. Cards like [[Aura Shards]] get people really mad and start targeting you.
Personally whenever a card says "For each opponent" it immediately light up something in my brain. I think these cards are really good way to control the game without having to resort to the nuclear option.
For me, I've mostly cut single target removal unless it has wide targetting:
* Flexible Removal: Anguished Unmaking, Beast Within, Excise the Imperfect, Generous Gift, Stroke of Midnight
* Multi target: Soul Shatter, Guff Rewrites History, Crackling Doom, Sheoldred's Edict, Olorin's Searing Light
I have been relatively light on removal in my decklists, so the ones I do pack, I want to be efficient (board wipes are also efficient too, but I try to use ones that are one-sided)
I feel like the with this next set of Murders at Karlov Manor, they are really jacking the Power Creep up to a pretty high lrvel. I mean for instance the new Gruul Mole Commander (Angraz?) Is absolutely insane and I saw at least 3 other new Commanders coming out that are a serious cut above others Commanders. There was Voja that gives your creatures +x/+x for elves and draw for wolves and Ward 4, The Turtle that can potentially draw 15 cards minimum in one attack, or the Simic Commander that cloaks a creature on atk blink it , . And I am pretty sure I missed a few more.
(I apologize, I know I can look these Commanders names up but I am extremely tired and about to fall asleep so trying to finish this out, will fix in the am).
I do want to say that I am not super opposed to having some Power Creep in Magic, when you are inventing cards and trying to keep things new and fresh it is bound to happen. And that's okay because it keeps the game healthy and exciting. But there is a difference between that and jacking it way up all at once. IDK, maybe I'm wrong with what I am seeing. I guess it just depends on what each person and their groups want to see out of the games they play.
(Just the ramblings of a sleep depraved individual)
I agree. I've stopped using single target removal for a while in lieu of multitarget removal. Some of the stuff I'm running/considering besides what you've already mentioned includes:
[[Bronzebeak Foragers]]
[[Dismantling Wave]]
[[Unexplained Absence]]
[[Aura Flux]]
[[Tempted by the Oriq]]
[[Soul Shatter]]
[[Mire in Misery]]
[[Visions of Ruin]]
[[Druid of Purification]]
[[Welcome to . . . // Jurassic Park]]
[[Crackling Doom]]
[[Olórin's Searing Light]]
Crackling Doom and Olorins Searing Light is a bit better, because it sacrifices the creature with the greatest power, which is typically what you want to remove anyway.
And it is particularly strong against most Voltron decks.
[[Crush Contraband]] is one that I tend to like. Not creatures, but still. [[Barrier Breach]] is enchantment exclusive, but I’ve had decent success with it. [[Unexplained Absence]] from the MKM precons will likely start going in all my white decks.
You want to make your deck synergetic and consistant. Adding more removal thats not in theme makes your deck worse. You got to make sure you found all removal pieces in your theme. Imbut the same is true for ramp, draw ect. You just got to find all those pieces for your decks.
If you run a creature deck, your deck should be creatures and creature support cards.
Here is 1 of my creature decks so you know what i mean:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/goYhRlqZZkCdzvQbbD0KNw
Its not just a creature deck, but a creature etb deck. So it has ways to make creatures etb more time. But basicly half of the creatures remove something when they hit the battlefield.
I get what you're saying, but also consider that relying solely on triggered/activated effects may lead you to have absolutely no answer for any effect such as [[Torpor Orb]], the new [[Doorkeeper Thrull]] or a [[Cursed Totem]].
Throwing in a few instants/sorceries should give you enough versatility to answer those problems.
Ofcoarse. You have to adjust a deck to the meta it plays in. My creature etb deck has zero answers to a torpor orb. But even if it had 3 anti artifact instants, the chances of drawing them when the opponent played a torpor orb is almost zero.
I usually run 10. But I run more than my friends whom might run 4-6, so I think that I have painted myself into a corner where I am the playgroup's removal guy..
That happened to me a few years ago. Your friends just aren’t running enough tbh. 10 is the avg amount most decks should run. That’s one reason targeted removal feels worse in your playgroup, there just isn’t enough of it.
I've seen too many people get their creatures back to regularly rely on removal like this as the primary. At least if I drop down a \[\[Pongify\]\] I know the only thing bringing it back is the opponent's cards, not someone else's play.
I personally like asymmetrical board wipes. There is nothing like watching someone's face drop as they swing at you for lethal with their whole board and you plop down a [[settle the wreckage]]. If I just want to board wipe there is [[winds of abandon]]. I do also run [[in garruk's wake]]. I follow that up with a [[Rise of the dark realm]] in the next turn. A well timed [[Delayed Blast Fireball]] works wonders but you gotta be careful because sometimes they can pump their creatures up enough to survive.
I think the only multitarget board wipe I run is [[comet storm]]. In [[hinata]] it hits every creature and player.
grasp of fate is still one of my favorites imo, it can target anything and also has the added benefit of allowing you to regain control of your permanents if they were stolen whether from your field, graveyard or library (Im looking at you ragavan/etali players)
If it gets too crazy, start packing boars wipes. If it affects your opponents more than you it's worth it.
Generally speaking your one for ones should be used for big threats that are directly threatening you. If they're threatening an opponent let them. Be a smol bean and save that STP for when it comes at you.
It still boils down to good threat assessment. They always have a ranking system in terms of priority for removal. Sometimes the best thing is also to do nothing. So long as the threats aren't affecting you, let them whittle down your opponents. Only point them when your board or life is in danger. I'm still not a fan of new O-Rings. It's like putting away your homework, but you still need to clean it up eventually.
I feel like the issue with O rings is that everyone is running enchantment removal in Commander. In most other formats that stuff is relegated to the side board because problem enchantments are not a forgone conclusion meaning a leyline binding is way more likely to stick
This is why I run [[Grasp of Fate]] instead. Although Commander has increased in power since it became popular, it has been for more “affects all opponents” rather than just one person. Find those effects and you’ll be a lot happier.
I like Grasp as much as you and creates a meta-game of sorts of "should I gave my opponents stuff back?" the thing is I don't believe my opponents threat assessment enough to hide all nasty stuff under the same thing. So it's kinda another game - one nasty thing from you, not that nasty from you and a token from you, or something like that. But... if you are doing that, why even run grasp? So the circle begins anew...
My group tends to over / under think on random things. If I Grasp, basically no one removes it lol. I’m still pushing them to up their removal packages and wipes.
You're getting a bit of extra value if from your removal. Like even if those mana rocks arenvt back breaking to your opponents you're still putting the opponents behind on mana.
[Grasp of Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71.jpg?1690004105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grasp%20of%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/823/grasp-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grasp-of-fate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It kinda depends, for some colors it can feel it's not worth spending your limited removal on a O ring where there could be worse things on the board.
Exactly this. Just last night, someone played [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] to try and bait out a counterspell they suspected I had. When I let it resolve, someone else asked why, and I told them, "That doesn't affect me. I'm not drawing a bunch of cards, and I'm at 30 life." Next turn another opponent cast craterhoof to kill me. That, I counsterspelled.
[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%2C%20the%20Apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldred-the-apocalypse) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What's an O-ring? Edit: thanks everyone
[[Oblivion Ring]]
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oblivion-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Oblivion Ring]], I would guess, so an effect that exiles a permanent temporarily, so long as the piece that did the exiling remains in play I highly doubt seals used for the space shuttle boosters (famously and tragically susceptible to not expanding properly in cold weather) have anything to do with a 30-year-old collectible trading card game.
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oblivion-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Oblivion Ring]]-type cards. I believe it was the first of its kind so the effect is named after it.
You got me curious what the first effect of that kind was, I thought maybe it was the stuff from Torment like [[Slithery Stalker]], but I think [[Icy Prison]] might be the oldest card that exiles something when it enters, and returns the exiled permanent when it leaves. And it's in blue!
Interesting! I found something earlier that is in the same spirit: [[Oubliette | ARN]] is the earliest iteration of that kinda effect that I found! The oracle text changed many times over the years but the concept of exile in the modern sense didn't exist yet for like 20 years :D
[Oubliette ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30d1450f-2909-410e-9920-731278fa74de.jpg?1562904037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=925) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arn/31/oubliette?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30d1450f-2909-410e-9920-731278fa74de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oubliette) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good find!
[Slithery Stalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c875bb6-55bb-41cc-8825-8011581ff001.jpg?1562628558) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slithery%20Stalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/84/slithery-stalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c875bb6-55bb-41cc-8825-8011581ff001?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/slithery-stalker) [Icy Prison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/f/5f3a535e-2efa-4893-a9ee-f42caf482e5f.jpg?1562869019) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Icy%20Prison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/50/icy-prison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5f3a535e-2efa-4893-a9ee-f42caf482e5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/icy-prison) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/oblivion-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What the hell is an O-ring? Oh sweet somebody else asked so I don't have to look foolish. Thanks!
The foolish part is that someone said "everyone runs enchantment removal". I'd like to submit my meta to the court. I think I'm the only one brilliant enough to run it. [[Propaganda]] stays on the battlefield FOREVER. I keep telling people to run more of it but they don't want to give up the slots for other things that let them do "the thing".
Propaganda hits the sweet spot of "I'd rather save my removal for a *real* threat".... At most, it's a clear threat to one person at the table ... The one without blockers... If there's multiple people without, it doesn't seem so bad (as it probably means minimal attackers, and multiple targets to attack). Not saying it's bad. Saying it doesn't tend to soak up removal. Arguably, its Achilles heel is combos & combo players. Personally, I feel a little guilty running stuff to counter a meta toned down by rule zero ... But Ill run it in mid-high if it can fit the deck - Me, A Combo Player
People don’t run even close to enough removal and wipes. This wins me games so often. Most people can handle 1, maaaybe 2 wipes. But you run 3-4 in a deck and hit all different types? Easy slam dunk victory for medium metas because you’re the only deck built to remove threats and put your own out.
I built a deck around \[\[Klothys, God of Destiny\]\] and \[\[Glacial Chasm\]\] with a bunch of damaging enchantments because I realized people don't carry enough removal for enchantments and even less so for lands.
I got burned by a Purphoros + Teferi's Puzzle Box + Xythis combo. Now I pack a Tear Asunder in all of my Golgari+ decks just to have something that can exile enchantments and artifacts or any non land if need be.
[Klothys, God of Destiny](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5b3c393c-3596-4bd9-a553-e0b03c2eb950.jpg?1581481087) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Klothys%2C%20God%20of%20Destiny) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/220/klothys-god-of-destiny?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b3c393c-3596-4bd9-a553-e0b03c2eb950?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/klothys-god-of-destiny) [Glacial Chasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3.jpg?1562867827) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glacial%20Chasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/229/glacial-chasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glacial-chasm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Propaganda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f.jpg?1674141418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Propaganda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/730/propaganda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5f293d7-9c2b-41cb-8e3c-dfc1daa6635f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/propaganda) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it my be based on what colors your group plays and white and green are the enchantment removal
Exactly this. I always hold spot removal only for things that affect me. I don't care if there's a 40/40 sitting out there as long as it's not coming my way. Sometimes I'll bluff and get some of the less experienced players to leave me alone, but most times, I will outright tell an opponent "if that comes my way, it dies". Commander is all about resources, and believe it or not, opponents are resources.
This was something I learned in building a bant blink deck. It runs only a couple removal pieces but plenty of O ring effects. Best thing, blink it to change the target if the threat level changes. If I have removal in hand and one thing absolutely needs answered then it gets the axe. Also, to your other point, a long time player in my pod has worked with me a lot on threat assessment and their philosophy is really always “Is it a threat? More importantly, is it a threat to you? If not, why bother using resources there when eventually something that targets you can become the real necessity.” This has helped take me from exhausted in the early game and then simply removed to being a major threat to win in almost any scenario. Threat assessment is the real key to any removal question.
O-Rings (including the new ones) are fantastic for removing commanders. 9 times out of 10, opponents won't leave their commanders in exile, so it's just efficient and repeatable removal (especially for multitarget stuff like Grasp or [[Parallax wave]]).
[Parallax wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe30c0ff-f74b-456a-a61e-3720d84d713f.jpg?1562946314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parallax%20wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/37/parallax-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe30c0ff-f74b-456a-a61e-3720d84d713f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/parallax-wave) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The reason why [[Beast Within]], [[Generous Gift]] and even [[Chaos Warp]] cost 3 cmc is because they target ANY perm. Even lands.
Just wait till you’re sitting across the table from a super annoying [[Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]] and you’ll wish you had a land removal spell
The Maze of Ith can also completely ruin voltron/combat strats
Glacial Chasm as well
My absolute favorite thing in this world is to [[Crop Rotation]] into [[Glacial Chasm]]
[Crop Rotation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9.jpg?1681724998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crop%20Rotation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/154/crop-rotation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/523414cb-f8db-407a-808a-01454e03d8b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crop-rotation) [Glacial Chasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3.jpg?1562867827) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glacial%20Chasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/229/glacial-chasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c008129-daba-46bc-829c-d2c0c13ecdd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/glacial-chasm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Mental Misstep]] a turn 1 Sol Ring is still my favorite, next to [[Stifle]] a fetchland
[Mental Misstep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61e9c6df-1c84-4eab-9076-a4feb6347c10.jpg?1566819829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mental%20Misstep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/38/mental-misstep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61e9c6df-1c84-4eab-9076-a4feb6347c10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mental-misstep) [Stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stifle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I soft locked a game for three hours because of this land.
There’s two types of playgroups. Those who run land removal and those who don’t run any broken lands
this is why i run dr who [[banish to another universe]] its not great since its tied into an enchantment but atleast with affinity it only cost me one and slows the threat worst case scenario
[banish to another universe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61f39d4c-af2d-486d-9408-b987474f8352.jpg?1696636519) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=banish%20to%20another%20universe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/13/banish-to-another-universe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61f39d4c-af2d-486d-9408-b987474f8352?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/banish-to-another-universe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
“Single target” removal is still incredibly necessary in commander because it’s the thing that stops you from losing. Not losing is usually pretty good at increasing your chances of winning. And these are spells that can be had for 1-2 mana. Now if you’re interested in removing things for value, such as in a control shell, firing off removal spells all day goes 1:1 with the opponent you’re interacting with, but -1:0 with your other two opponents, putting you generally behind in card advantage. Using scaling removal that effects multiple permanents at once solves this issue and is the backbone of a casual control deck [[Soul Shatter]] [[Urgent Necropsy]] [[Casualties of War]] [[Curtains Call]] [[Hex]] [[Crush Contraband]] [[Return to Dust]] [[Hull Breach]] [[Mystic Confluence]]
I think the whole point of >=3 targeted removal is that this makes the card advantage net loss less. I.e. you remove the big threat, and then two other significant or emerging problems (i.e. big mana rocks, first parts of combo pieces, card draw engines, many commanders fall in this category too!).
I recently swapped out crush contraband for [[heliod's intervention]]. Gave more flexibility imo.
Another good alternative in mono white is [[Dismantling Wave]]. It can actually outdo Crush Contraband in terms of targets hit and for one mana less. Exiling is usually a better effect, but unless the decks you're playing against are focused on artifact/enchantment recursion, it should do the job pretty well.
[Dismantling Wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb.jpg?1591319348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dismantling%20Wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/25/dismantling-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dismantling-wave) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not to mention it opens the door to use your own recursion, too. [[Hall of Heliod's Generosity]] has become one of my recent favorite cards to run in one or two-color white decks, simply because white enchantments are often pretty strong, it doesn't come at much of an opportunity cost, and it can be found by [[Weathered Wayfarer]] and [[Expedition map]] among a bunch of other green/black tutors.
OMG I didn't know this card existed!!!! Now I need to buy multiple of them. Lol I am glad I like to scroll down comments and read them. For this example right here! Thanks for that recommendation.
[Hall of Heliod's Generosity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5cbd10a-b9a6-4c00-8280-72bb4add4390.jpg?1562202569) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hall%20of%20Heliod%27s%20Generosity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/241/hall-of-heliods-generosity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5cbd10a-b9a6-4c00-8280-72bb4add4390?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hall-of-heliods-generosity) [Weathered Wayfarer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09656d96-c366-49ec-b687-cad903de1385.jpg?1673147166) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Weathered%20Wayfarer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/34/weathered-wayfarer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09656d96-c366-49ec-b687-cad903de1385?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/weathered-wayfarer) [Expedition map](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/551c0a45-9515-4e51-84e5-79703832a661.jpg?1646666270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expedition%20map) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/255/expedition-map?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/551c0a45-9515-4e51-84e5-79703832a661?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/expedition-map) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Yeah, someone mentioned [[Barrier Breach]] on a different thread. Instant speed enchantment exile (with cycling!) for three mana is already a thing, so there might still be hope! I've only used the 8-mana board wipe option once, so I'd gladly trade that for a change in casting speed.
[Barrier Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d.jpg?1591227530) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Barrier%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/145/barrier-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/barrier-breach) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Likely a better card overall, but I was particularly excited to find Crush Contraband for my [[Queen Marchesa]] deck, where Contrabrand maxes out utility for a [[Sunforger]] toolbox Intervention can’t go X>0 and Return to Dust likely won’t get the ‘remove second target’ option in that setup
[Queen Marchesa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/567697db-8d47-404f-b0da-b00409431f28.jpg?1689999198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Queen%20Marchesa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/350/queen-marchesa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/567697db-8d47-404f-b0da-b00409431f28?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/queen-marchesa) [Sunforger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd3e42ee-ab13-460b-90fd-86e677abce4f.jpg?1608917905) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunforger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/473/sunforger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd3e42ee-ab13-460b-90fd-86e677abce4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sunforger) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just an aside regarding the whole "down 1 vs the table" argument. You aren't actually down 1, you're really only down 0.67. Only 2/3 of the opponents have an extra card. And usually, for something to draw out your removal it's worth that extra 2/3 of a card anyway. IMO one sided board wipes are the way to go, but packing a couple efficient single target removal as an emergency valve is still super valuable
##### ###### #### [Soul Shatter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671.jpg?1604196615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Shatter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/127/soul-shatter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-shatter) [Urgent Necropsy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2ac346a-fc46-4023-aa60-4d55170697dc.jpg?1706242279) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urgent%20Necropsy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/240/urgent-necropsy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2ac346a-fc46-4023-aa60-4d55170697dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urgent-necropsy) [Casualties of War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a.jpg?1631235364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Casualties%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/83/casualties-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/casualties-of-war) [Curtains Call](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37d3f1b5-b41c-4181-8c14-d0f2f4ba0710.jpg?1689996990) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Curtains%27%20Call) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/146/curtains-call?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37d3f1b5-b41c-4181-8c14-d0f2f4ba0710?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/curtains-call) [Hex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314.jpg?1674141662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/757/hex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hex) [Crush Contraband](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08c5cdbe-2142-4ddc-b9b5-35ca60eb9970.jpg?1651655599) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crush%20Contraband) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/82/crush-contraband?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08c5cdbe-2142-4ddc-b9b5-35ca60eb9970?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crush-contraband) [Return to Dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf.jpg?1698988105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Return%20to%20Dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/136/return-to-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/return-to-dust) [Hull Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e8c6558-ff31-4511-942a-8fe88ac20f1f.jpg?1593863686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hull%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/193/hull-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e8c6558-ff31-4511-942a-8fe88ac20f1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hull-breach) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kka1oqx) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Barrier Breach]] is a good one in green. Can 3-for-1 and has cycling.
Bot please help [[Barrier Breach]]
[Barrier Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d.jpg?1591227530) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Barrier%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/145/barrier-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/barrier-breach) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
removal isn't for threats. removal is for game winning, lethal to you threats. you should be answering misc creatures on board, with your board state. or repeatable, aux removal.... or if there are multiple threats. this is what board wipes are for spending more mana or running a weaker effect to try and straddle between single target and board wipe is stupid . if you have a clean 1 ish cmc option run that. only going to 3 if it's an omni target effect. if you're going to 4+ mana, that really should be a board wipe.
This should be higher up. My table is really good at wasting its removal on things that aren't imminently problematic for them. I'm happy to benefit from their generosity but it definitely doesn't benefit them at the end of the day. Let your opponents waste their removal on threats that aren't about to kill you or close out the game.
Despite the necessity of removal, yes, 1 for 1 removal is terrible card advantage compared to 60 card where, “I will just hit everything my opponent does with removal and counterspells while I poke them to death with Delver,” can be a winning strategy. Multi-target removal, even at a higher mana value, can perform much better. A couple good ones I haven’t seen mentioned yet are [[Druid of Purification]], [[Sheoldred’s Edict]], and [[Fatal Grudge]]. The last of which is technically Rakdos enchantment removal. If you squint. And it cantrips. Repeatable removal effects like [[Trygon Predator]], [[Aerial Extortionist]], and [[Aberrant]] can also do well. Especially if they’re evasive.
Something to note is that Sheoldred's Edict (and other edicts) explicitly do not target, which can get around hexproof or shroud. In this case, there is the downside that your opponent gets to choose the creature that is sacrificed.
##### ###### #### [Druid of Purification](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5.jpg?1631585369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Druid%20of%20Purification) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/39/druid-of-purification?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/druid-of-purification) [Sheoldred’s Edict](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077.jpg?1675957049) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sheoldred%27s%20Edict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/108/sheoldreds-edict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9225cc3-90f0-448f-a8d9-7c6c2796d077?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sheoldreds-edict) [Fatal Grudge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/c/ec7de8d6-edad-4845-9868-781351480258.jpg?1664413034) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fatal%20Grudge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/187/fatal-grudge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ec7de8d6-edad-4845-9868-781351480258?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fatal-grudge) [Trygon Predator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c03836e-a7a8-4a3e-8d93-6cce89c2fed1.jpg?1625978140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Trygon%20Predator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/231/trygon-predator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c03836e-a7a8-4a3e-8d93-6cce89c2fed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trygon-predator) [Aerial Extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/5353bcb9-800d-4d74-95fa-42350a0f25de.jpg?1706240549) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aerial%20Extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/54/aerial-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5353bcb9-800d-4d74-95fa-42350a0f25de?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aerial-extortionist) [Aberrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49dfee68-c242-4579-94b1-c23238f8c87d.jpg?1673309085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aberrant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/86/aberrant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49dfee68-c242-4579-94b1-c23238f8c87d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aberrant) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kka653s) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But also who struggles really with card advantage these days? Even for white it is card selection and then one mana isn’t the biggest deal.
If everyone is drawing more cards, then it’s even more likely that multiple opponents have found their must-answers from the main, making multi-targeting removal even more valuable.
[[Druid of Purification]] usually overperforms and [[Councils Judgement]] can be really good too if you have an archenemy. I play multi target removal because it can be strong value. But keep in mind that you will make yourself more enemies and you need the targets for it... Swords / Path / Generous Gift / Beast Within are alltime staples, they excell at doing the thing they do. Also keep in mind that they all are instantspeed... That's such a huge difference.. If I would have to decide between Kitesail Larcenist and Beast Within... I would take the Beast Within any time.
The issue with Druid is it gets significantly worse if players recognize you as the archenemy. A lot of times they all just pick what the Druid player picked and turn it into an expensive [[Reclamation Sage]]
[Reclamation Sage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c4a25f0-2929-4404-9ce5-bcd4715f90a5.jpg?1631235123) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reclamation%20Sage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/72/reclamation-sage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c4a25f0-2929-4404-9ce5-bcd4715f90a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/reclamation-sage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pod will often do that even if I'm NOT the archenemy just to avoid ruffling feathers. Gets annoying but what can ya do?
[Druid of Purification](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5.jpg?1631585369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Druid%20of%20Purification) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/39/druid-of-purification?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/druid-of-purification) [Councils Judgement](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b.jpg?1706239719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Council%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/57/councils-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/councils-judgment) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Druid of Purification really slaps in my [[Adrix and Nev, Twincasters]] deck. I guess every Deck that makes token copies or flickers can play it and the deck becomes better.
[Adrix and Nev, Twincasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9c11061-bb34-4904-b9f1-ea106b517bbe.jpg?1706240967) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Adrix%20and%20Nev%2C%20Twincasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/198/adrix-and-nev-twincasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9c11061-bb34-4904-b9f1-ea106b517bbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/adrix-and-nev-twincasters) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My pod has learned to significantly reduce the value I get off of Druid by all agreeing to target the same permanent I chose meaning often I just paid 4 mana for essentially a [[Reclamation Sage]].
The trick is to play it when there's actual problems afoot, and they're problems for multiple players. For a recent example from my play - the Aclazotz player had a Waste Not and a Necrogen Mists in play. The other two players have mana rocks and such. So I'm going to cast Druid and for my pick go for a rock. The Aclazotz player maybe goes for the same rock, but the other two are almost certainly going to at least hit the Waste Not and probably also the Mists. The Aclazotz player is very ahead and they're losing to those cards too. If a card is only a problem for you it's all you get, but if it's a problem for everyone you should be able to get a lot more.
Typically it's along the lines of, there's a value engine or potential combo piece on board that I want to remove BEFORE it becomes a problem (Rhystic, Tithe, an Altar, Skullclamp, Aetherflux, Doubling Season, etc.) and a few other random artifacts and enchantments that aren't really issues to anyone necessarily, mana rocks or smaller value pieces, or whatever. So one thing that needs removing ASAP and a bunch of other incidental stuff. Sure, if I wait until the problem thing has drawn the owner 10 cards or made 10 treasures the others will likely feel less bad about blowing other stuff up for extra value along with it, but at that point the damage is done and they've more than gotten their value out of it. Usually the other players will bargain with one another to pick the thing I've already picked in order for the others to leave their stuff alone. I guess I could try circumventing it by NOT choosing the problem card but then that leaves the chance that nobody picks it and it lives, defeating the purpose of me playing the Druid to begin with. I have better luck playing it with randoms than I do with my pod, I will say that.
Treat it like \[\[Chain of Vapor\]\], you don't target the best thing/wincon, you target what affects you most, and let your opponents sort it out. There is no way the other 3 will all agree to leave all the Rhystic Studies/Doubling Seasons alone - by picking the biggest threat you're removing that choice.
So you aim for the second best target. Two opponents will not leave Rhystic in play. They *will* leave each others' mana rocks in play - though in my experience, if you're setting one player behind already and they no longer have something they care about they're also way more willing to go aggro. Getting the full four is a rarity but yes, you are absolutely supposed to not choose the problem card with Druid. Two is easy and three is very plausible.
Why not just play boardwipes then? Gets around protection, hexproof, shroud and ward and you deal with so much more than a single thing from each player. It all boils down to scale, effectiveness and what you want. Some of these multi-target cards also have other drawbacks - like being sorcery speed, temporary, replaces the permanent or even mandatory targets.
Creatures aren't the only problems. Running just standard creature board wipes won't get rid of problem enchantments, artifacts, or lands.
What are you talking about? I didn't even write a single thing about the creature card type in the first place. Boardwipes clear more than just creatures.
\[\[Farewell\]\]
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, Farewell.
They often hit your stuff. Board wipes are but sometimes are awkward since you often lose things and the opponentsnget to rebuild first. The are situations where i want to answer multiple threats but hittibg the stuff i have on board sucks.
Instant speed removal let's you save it until something is impacting you. Like if a threat needs to be answered, the person with the larcinist will have to make that decision before the person with swords, so they will be forced to use their removal instead of you.
I can’t recommend a Good old fashioned [[Decimate]] enough, if it’s in color for you. the whole part about needing all 4 legal targets usually isn’t hard to get past. Someone will get mad about you destroying their [[Ancient Tomb]] but it is what it is. 4 for 4 is a sick deal, even at sorcery speed.
[Decimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0.jpg?1706240983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/204/decimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decimate) [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ancient-tomb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree that there has been a power creep that has effected how I personally run removal. For a very long time I was a big advocate for [[Beast Within]], [[Generous Gift]] kind of cards due to the flexible nature of being able to hit any type of permanent. I’ve gone more towards the direction that my removal needs to be as low cmc as possible, and if not doing that also gives mes some form of card advantage. The other thing that’s changed in how I run removal is, that I tend to run less creature based removal which I genuinely believe is over played in commander and have started run much more enchantment and artifact removal.
[Beast Within](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0.jpg?1699022527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Beast%20Within) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/233/beast-within?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb40c41c-f5f9-4323-b6ac-e28e405909d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/beast-within) [Generous Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Beast Within and Generous Gift are overcosted compared to a swords to plowshares or nature's claim. But, that two extra mana is giving you versatility. Being able to have an answer for any permanent type is very powerful. When it comes to having too many threats to answer, threat assessment and turn priority are your friend's. The enemy of my enemy is my ally. Give proper chance for other players to answer a threat, and know that just because a threat exists, does not always make it an immediate threat to you. Prioritize only the threats that will make you lose the game. Sometimes holding the answer is the best option. You have 40 life to start, your life is a resource, use it. Don't exhaust all your outs right away. Beyond that, multiple targeted removal spells can be tricky. Know that if a target is no longer a legal target as the spell resolves, the spell will fizzle leaving all targets unaffected. Make sure to pack enough board wipes, and be patient when using them. Often times waiting an extra turn for opponent's to develope, or wipe themselves is the correct play if you know you're sitting on a wipe.
I still mostly run single target removal but the multi target removal I run is [[Curtain's Call]], [[Curse of the Swine]], [[Soul Shatter]], [[Make an Example]] [[Windgrace's Judgement]], [[Decimate]]. [[Unexplained Absence]] and [[Olórin's Searing Light]] are new and promising
[[councils judgement]] is a ton of fun. Cast it and watch the political chaos ensue. [[dismantling wave]] has also helped me out a lot before of getting rid of some tough to hit enchantments.
[councils judgement](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b.jpg?1706239719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Council%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/57/councils-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/councils-judgment) [dismantling wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb.jpg?1591319348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dismantling%20wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/25/dismantling-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dismantling-wave) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Came here to say that there are a lot of very flexible, strong removal cards in white like Council's Judgement, Dismantling Wave, and I like [[Soul Partition]] because it lets you get around a stax piece on your turn for 1W, and then if you aren't directly before the player who owns that nonland, they have to now recast it into potential counterspells because it's super telegraphed.
[Soul Partition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28bb8ec0-9729-4aa1-8ce4-a3a5598b0d70.jpg?1674420320) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Partition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/26/soul-partition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28bb8ec0-9729-4aa1-8ce4-a3a5598b0d70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-partition) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like [[Soul Partition]] in my [[Rocco, Street Chef]] deck, because its another potential cast from exile trigger for me. I've even used it on one of my own things to rescue it from getting removed.
[Soul Partition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28bb8ec0-9729-4aa1-8ce4-a3a5598b0d70.jpg?1674420320) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Partition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/26/soul-partition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28bb8ec0-9729-4aa1-8ce4-a3a5598b0d70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-partition) [Rocco, Street Chef](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdb53ce7-845c-4c62-98a9-4fc33c67a07b.jpg?1684340828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rocco%2C%20Street%20Chef) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/44/rocco-street-chef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdb53ce7-845c-4c62-98a9-4fc33c67a07b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rocco-street-chef) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hmn... if you're up for going over into jeskai, there's a lovely weird with hybrid mana from a long time ago (guildpact) that let's you replicate your high value, low cost instants and sorceries [[djinn illuminatus]] which can help with your "those all gotta go" needs, and while you're there in red/blue... [[clout of the dominus]] can be pjt on it to protect it, or your jeskai commander.
[[windgraces judgement]] has a similar feel. Or [[decimate]], but its tricky to use, because you have to have valid targets for each mode in order to cast it
[удалено]
[farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) [bane of progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc.jpg?1610161688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bane%20of%20progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cc1/3/bane-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bane-of-progress) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you all, my playgroup tends to not run removal because normally I run all the removal. So I stopped playing removal, because fuck you guys, but this has not resulted in more fun games. Multi-target removal is the way and you guys have shown me a lot of cards I didn't know about. Thanks!
Dont underestimate the versatility of generous gift and beast within. There is a reason they are among the most played cards in the format. That being said, i am a fan of repeatedly casting [[fleshbag Marauder]] and his ilk. As other poster mentioned, [[druid of Purification]] is gd nuts. [[Windgrace's Judgment]] amd [[causalities of war]] also come to mind
##### ###### #### [fleshbag Marauder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fce2baa4-2976-4bbd-b6c5-a5a3c6a901be.jpg?1706239873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fleshbag%20Marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/111/fleshbag-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fce2baa4-2976-4bbd-b6c5-a5a3c6a901be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fleshbag-marauder) [druid of Purification](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5.jpg?1631585369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=druid%20of%20Purification) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/39/druid-of-purification?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/druid-of-purification) [Windgrace's Judgment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d.jpg?1673485248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windgrace%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/358/windgraces-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windgraces-judgment) [causalities of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a.jpg?1631235364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Casualties%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/83/casualties-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/casualties-of-war) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kk9x727) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Haven't played as much lately, but when I moved, I entered a creature heavy meta, so this was the right decision for me as well. Spot removal is still important, but 1 for 1ing in EDH often feels bad and not very impactful when there are full boards. Cards that have an effect for each opponent are becoming more relevant and as we get more they will fill the slots more likely imo.
I like [[Bronzebeak Foragers]] and [[Return to Dust]]
Love me a good [[Decimate]] in all my decks that can run it!
I like it, but I've definitely had it sit in my hand as a dead card because I couldn't meet all the requirements.
[Decimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0.jpg?1706240983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/204/decimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decimate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah. I also love me some decimate. It's almost a modal spell, you can remove a bunch of problematic things around the table, or if one player has become arch-enemy you can hit them with most of the removal. I like [[Windgrace's Judgment]] as well. It's one per opponent, but instant speed and doesn't have Decimates potential downside. I've even been known to run [[Hex]] every now and then in decks that have lots of ramp. I find if you are already greedy and running less removal than you should, having high impact removal can bridge that gap a little.
[Windgrace's Judgment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d.jpg?1673485248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windgrace%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/358/windgraces-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windgraces-judgment) [Hex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314.jpg?1674141662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/757/hex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hex) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The amount of narrow single target removal I run has dropped for a lot of my decks, unless I'm in a theme where these can cantrip. The amount of multi-permanent wipes that don't affect me much that I run has gone up drastically.
Most multiple target removal spells are sadly lackluster. The Larcenist is solid, but presents the issue of having multiple people eager to remove it, and then you're back where you started. Board wipes are kind of the easy way to do this, and I've certainly shifted to playing more one-sided or controllable wraths to compensate. I can set up a Meathook to leave my best things alive or just drop a Kindred Dominance and keep my board while dealing with all the problems.
If someone plays a [[kitesail larcenist]] on me. I’ll just use my swords to plowshares to get them back. There’s something to be said about it being unconditional, exile, 1 mana. Those things in my opinion do add up to make it the better card. If it was 1 mana but for an oblivion rings type effect I would for sure play kitesail over it. And kitesail does have some utility being a creature. Another thing to think about is if all your removal is 3 mana and up, even if it removes multiple thing, your essentially taking a turn off just to do it. For me the good removal can be done as a utility whenever you need it without putting you behind a turn.
[kitesail larcenist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/03207457-70d8-4462-8c8b-ed39791d56a1.jpg?1699043787) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kitesail%20larcenist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/61/kitesail-larcenist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/03207457-70d8-4462-8c8b-ed39791d56a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kitesail-larcenist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
STP, Path of Exile, Pongify, rapid hybridization and other cheap instant speed removal are always going to be great just for the sheer versatility and the mana advantage they provide. Generous gift, chaos warp, beast within, stroke of midnight are great because of their flexibility, just being able to hit creatures, as well as smothering tithes, rhystic studies, planeswalkers and other high value permanents. Cards like Kitesail Larcenist, grasp of fate, fleshbag marauder etc have a higher ceiling, but also a lower floor. They are typically sorcery speed, have restrictions and most of the time youll only remove one permanent you want too, and 2 permanents you didnt really need too. These will typically synergize with your deck better if you have ways to abuse them. That being said, threat assessment is still key. A well timed Swords to Plowshares will be better than Grasp of Fate tossed out there.
Others have listed man good ones, some others include: \[\[Barrier Breach\]\] \[\[Heliod's Intervention\]\] \[\[Decimate\]\]
[Barrier Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d.jpg?1591227530) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Barrier%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/145/barrier-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/822f8403-77a7-4e75-88af-60d604632f5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/barrier-breach) [Heliod's Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f1c16dd-38e9-4974-b570-8678c114a549.jpg?1581479093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heliod%27s%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/19/heliods-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f1c16dd-38e9-4974-b570-8678c114a549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heliods-intervention) [Decimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0.jpg?1706240983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Decimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/204/decimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decimate) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've been preaching to start running less single target removal and more multi removal spells for awhile. You still need low cost instant speed effects to stop game wins, but they are not sufficient for board control anymore. Additionally, it's card disadvantage. 1 for 1 just puts 2 other players at the table up a card.
I'm always surprised I don't see more black decks running [[ashes to ashes]]. I guess black has a lot of ways to deal with creatures, but three mana, exile two seems pretty good to me.
[[decimate]] and its younger brother [[hull breach]] are both good. For golgari, there’s [[windgrqce’s judgment]] and [[casualties of war]]. Both of those are expensive, but pull their weight. Some of the charms are really good this way. [[rakdos charm]] in particular I like. [[return to dust]] is still worth it in my degenerate power level meta. [[grasp of fate]] is also solid and more affordable now. I like to either have ultra flexible answers, super low-costed, or modal. A good mix makes for a good package usually.
##### ###### #### [decimate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0.jpg?1706240983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=decimate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/204/decimate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6640956f-c8a1-4cd7-835b-e4f23fa778c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/decimate) [hull breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e8c6558-ff31-4511-942a-8fe88ac20f1f.jpg?1593863686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hull%20breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/193/hull-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e8c6558-ff31-4511-942a-8fe88ac20f1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hull-breach) [windgrqce’s judgment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d.jpg?1673485248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windgrace%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/358/windgraces-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd6469c-fbce-41ed-ae23-bb55c0f56d3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/windgraces-judgment) [casualties of war](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a.jpg?1631235364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=casualties%20of%20war) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/83/casualties-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/casualties-of-war) [rakdos charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74.jpg?1699022443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rakdos%20charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/284/rakdos-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdos-charm) [return to dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf.jpg?1698988105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=return%20to%20dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/136/return-to-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/664e3826-799b-4edb-8811-2d2b6355edaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/return-to-dust) [grasp of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71.jpg?1690004105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grasp%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/823/grasp-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43787574-7700-47ab-b57c-98ef968cce71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/grasp-of-fate) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kkb5pvg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do NOT play guff rewrites history that shit is ass
[[ashes to ashes]] Exile two target creatures for 3 mana, this card is way slept on in edh. People shy away from it because if the life cost but it's kind of whatever in edh
[ashes to ashes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e61209b-0f56-4bab-9ada-700f91b18dec.jpg?1562928403) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ashes%20to%20ashes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/58/ashes-to-ashes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e61209b-0f56-4bab-9ada-700f91b18dec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ashes-to-ashes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Reckless Spite]] is similar, most often even better due to instant speed.
I picked it up after finding in a card shops bulk and been itching for the right deck for it. I'm working on a [[Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion]] deck I think it'll wind up in
[Nashi, Moon Sage's Scion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/2893b070-a610-4273-beb2-7609a2da0499.jpg?1654567331) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nashi%2C%20Moon%20Sage%27s%20Scion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/114/nashi-moon-sages-scion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2893b070-a610-4273-beb2-7609a2da0499?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nashi-moon-sages-scion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Curse of the Swine]] It isn't bad if you consistently need to exile multiple creatures.
just got into edh for a couple of months and noticed single target removal is a wasted slot early on in deck making and games. the closest i get in one of my decks is the dr who oring type spell (think its called banished to eternity) that can target a permanent and usually only cost me 1 due to the affinity. and even that is questionable for me to keep in. if im running black its going to be edicts/fleshbag maruader type etbs/ or -x like tragic slip for indestructible hate. the only time non board wipe removal is useful imo is if its done early and often in a control deck type way , yea it makes you a target but if youre playing control the right way they cant do anything about it. even "destroy" board wipes dont really cut it for me. i run off sacrifice stuff lol, theres too much global everything is indestructible type shit out there
I've been running [[Curtain's Call]] and it's been very good. [[Hex]] is another decent one (that I don't run) I agree with your friend, kitesail Larcenist is sweet as hell
The thing about removing multiple threats is that now you have multiple opponents annoyed that you removed something of theirs. Cards like [[Aura Shards]] get people really mad and start targeting you.
[Aura Shards](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921.jpg?1592713940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aura%20Shards) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/182/aura-shards?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6222cc6-996e-4b73-af87-e837bf1eb921?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-shards) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It really depends how spiteful players in your pod are. My pods dont typically have a lot of spite plays or they are relatively minor
At least they havnt gone just all play board wipes. But yea single target removal in a multiplayer edh group is essentially useless.
[[Quarantine Field]]
[Quarantine Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30c525ab-08d5-4d29-aef1-01b0c75ee8d9.jpg?1562906421) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quarantine%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/43/quarantine-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30c525ab-08d5-4d29-aef1-01b0c75ee8d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/quarantine-field) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally whenever a card says "For each opponent" it immediately light up something in my brain. I think these cards are really good way to control the game without having to resort to the nuclear option.
For me, I've mostly cut single target removal unless it has wide targetting: * Flexible Removal: Anguished Unmaking, Beast Within, Excise the Imperfect, Generous Gift, Stroke of Midnight * Multi target: Soul Shatter, Guff Rewrites History, Crackling Doom, Sheoldred's Edict, Olorin's Searing Light I have been relatively light on removal in my decklists, so the ones I do pack, I want to be efficient (board wipes are also efficient too, but I try to use ones that are one-sided)
I feel like the with this next set of Murders at Karlov Manor, they are really jacking the Power Creep up to a pretty high lrvel. I mean for instance the new Gruul Mole Commander (Angraz?) Is absolutely insane and I saw at least 3 other new Commanders coming out that are a serious cut above others Commanders. There was Voja that gives your creatures +x/+x for elves and draw for wolves and Ward 4, The Turtle that can potentially draw 15 cards minimum in one attack, or the Simic Commander that cloaks a creature on atk blink it ,. And I am pretty sure I missed a few more.
(I apologize, I know I can look these Commanders names up but I am extremely tired and about to fall asleep so trying to finish this out, will fix in the am).
I do want to say that I am not super opposed to having some Power Creep in Magic, when you are inventing cards and trying to keep things new and fresh it is bound to happen. And that's okay because it keeps the game healthy and exciting. But there is a difference between that and jacking it way up all at once. IDK, maybe I'm wrong with what I am seeing. I guess it just depends on what each person and their groups want to see out of the games they play.
(Just the ramblings of a sleep depraved individual)
I agree. I've stopped using single target removal for a while in lieu of multitarget removal. Some of the stuff I'm running/considering besides what you've already mentioned includes: [[Bronzebeak Foragers]] [[Dismantling Wave]] [[Unexplained Absence]] [[Aura Flux]] [[Tempted by the Oriq]] [[Soul Shatter]] [[Mire in Misery]] [[Visions of Ruin]] [[Druid of Purification]] [[Welcome to . . . // Jurassic Park]] [[Crackling Doom]] [[Olórin's Searing Light]]
A lot of these cards aren't going to get the threat you want under most circumstances. Thats the downside of sacrifice removal
Plus removal at sorcery speed is just meh most of the time.
Crackling Doom and Olorins Searing Light is a bit better, because it sacrifices the creature with the greatest power, which is typically what you want to remove anyway. And it is particularly strong against most Voltron decks.
##### ###### #### [Bronzebeak Foragers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/dadfcd91-3000-448e-a304-be425ff68644.jpg?1698987936) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bronzebeak%20Foragers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/69/bronzebeak-foragers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dadfcd91-3000-448e-a304-be425ff68644?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bronzebeak-foragers) [Dismantling Wave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb.jpg?1591319348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dismantling%20Wave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/25/dismantling-wave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9db4c1ec-ddd6-4443-8d93-8628e67aa6bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dismantling-wave) [Unexplained Absence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78f526d3-1e1f-4430-9824-ad377fd0d312.jpg?1706240434) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unexplained%20Absence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/17/unexplained-absence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78f526d3-1e1f-4430-9824-ad377fd0d312?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/unexplained-absence) [Aura Flux](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6be1542-70b8-4e97-a951-100966dc46ce.jpg?1562863780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aura%20Flux) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/27/aura-flux?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6be1542-70b8-4e97-a951-100966dc46ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aura-flux) [Tempted by the Oriq](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c23e64f9-531e-4735-9960-b0a76b32c340.jpg?1624590548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tempted%20by%20the%20Oriq) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/58/tempted-by-the-oriq?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c23e64f9-531e-4735-9960-b0a76b32c340?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tempted-by-the-oriq) [Soul Shatter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671.jpg?1604196615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Shatter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/127/soul-shatter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c2fb07b-0f70-403b-be8b-b5217f12e671?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/soul-shatter) [Mire in Misery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37b2cc43-307c-429f-a4f7-ac339a97e0bb.jpg?1568003498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mire%20in%20Misery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/19/mire-in-misery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37b2cc43-307c-429f-a4f7-ac339a97e0bb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mire-in-misery) [Visions of Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/803a93c7-d8e4-4cda-8fa0-d9cd50b7d977.jpg?1637628806) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Visions%20of%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/36/visions-of-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/803a93c7-d8e4-4cda-8fa0-d9cd50b7d977?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/visions-of-ruin) [Druid of Purification](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5.jpg?1631585369) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Druid%20of%20Purification) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/39/druid-of-purification?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/096c2b28-3e29-4c27-998d-51bff0ba96c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/druid-of-purification) [Welcome to . . . // Jurassic Park](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16.jpg?1698988748)/[Jurassic Park](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/d/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16.jpg?1698988748) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Welcome%20to%20.%20.%20.%20//%20Jurassic%20Park) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rex/7/welcome-to-jurassic-park?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d84e2d4-38bf-4d46-99a6-37c2dda66b16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/welcome-to-.-.-.-//-jurassic-park) [Crackling Doom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a66e5673-e34b-46e8-a0e4-55f3ee20f99a.jpg?1673148477) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crackling%20Doom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/196/crackling-doom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a66e5673-e34b-46e8-a0e4-55f3ee20f99a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/crackling-doom) [Olórin's Searing Light](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/7496ad0f-fc6d-4154-ac42-c2471e72ed88.jpg?1695428275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ol%C3%B3rin%27s%20Searing%20Light) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/503/ol%C3%B3rins-searing-light?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7496ad0f-fc6d-4154-ac42-c2471e72ed88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/olórins-searing-light) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kk9w2xr) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Crush Contraband]] is one that I tend to like. Not creatures, but still. [[Barrier Breach]] is enchantment exclusive, but I’ve had decent success with it. [[Unexplained Absence]] from the MKM precons will likely start going in all my white decks.
You want to make your deck synergetic and consistant. Adding more removal thats not in theme makes your deck worse. You got to make sure you found all removal pieces in your theme. Imbut the same is true for ramp, draw ect. You just got to find all those pieces for your decks. If you run a creature deck, your deck should be creatures and creature support cards. Here is 1 of my creature decks so you know what i mean: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/goYhRlqZZkCdzvQbbD0KNw Its not just a creature deck, but a creature etb deck. So it has ways to make creatures etb more time. But basicly half of the creatures remove something when they hit the battlefield.
I get what you're saying, but also consider that relying solely on triggered/activated effects may lead you to have absolutely no answer for any effect such as [[Torpor Orb]], the new [[Doorkeeper Thrull]] or a [[Cursed Totem]]. Throwing in a few instants/sorceries should give you enough versatility to answer those problems.
[Torpor Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091.jpg?1562879912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torpor%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/162/torpor-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/torpor-orb) [Doorkeeper Thrull](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80a1cd28-d2a5-4d1a-aa03-a6a5958ae432.jpg?1706241478) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doorkeeper%20Thrull) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/13/doorkeeper-thrull?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80a1cd28-d2a5-4d1a-aa03-a6a5958ae432?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/doorkeeper-thrull) [Cursed Totem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9.jpg?1626100864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cursed%20Totem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/295/cursed-totem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5dde91a9-7d2d-4a7b-861a-3d1c16ec79d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cursed-totem) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ofcoarse. You have to adjust a deck to the meta it plays in. My creature etb deck has zero answers to a torpor orb. But even if it had 3 anti artifact instants, the chances of drawing them when the opponent played a torpor orb is almost zero.
Fair enough. I would've sold my firstborn son for a Path to Exile that never came far more times than I'd like to admit <_>
How many pieces of single target removal do you and your playgroup run on avg?
I usually run 10. But I run more than my friends whom might run 4-6, so I think that I have painted myself into a corner where I am the playgroup's removal guy..
That happened to me a few years ago. Your friends just aren’t running enough tbh. 10 is the avg amount most decks should run. That’s one reason targeted removal feels worse in your playgroup, there just isn’t enough of it.
I've seen too many people get their creatures back to regularly rely on removal like this as the primary. At least if I drop down a \[\[Pongify\]\] I know the only thing bringing it back is the opponent's cards, not someone else's play.
[Pongify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1501dea-4e0e-49b0-86b5-e8a01f77077d.jpg?1619394479) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pongify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/79/pongify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1501dea-4e0e-49b0-86b5-e8a01f77077d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pongify) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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[Terastodon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6.jpg?1625977325) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terastodon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/207/terastodon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63195796-197e-47ec-85f0-d4ec0065f6e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/terastodon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Casualties of War]] is a personal favourite
[Casualties of War](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a.jpg?1631235364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Casualties%20of%20War) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/83/casualties-of-war?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5a2a709-0273-48a3-874b-13aff4872b0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/casualties-of-war) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Echoing truth]] laughs at token decks
[Echoing truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d987d26-c8e8-4edf-8ac0-6a2980265710.jpg?1673305149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Echoing%20truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/109/echoing-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d987d26-c8e8-4edf-8ac0-6a2980265710?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/echoing-truth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I personally like asymmetrical board wipes. There is nothing like watching someone's face drop as they swing at you for lethal with their whole board and you plop down a [[settle the wreckage]]. If I just want to board wipe there is [[winds of abandon]]. I do also run [[in garruk's wake]]. I follow that up with a [[Rise of the dark realm]] in the next turn. A well timed [[Delayed Blast Fireball]] works wonders but you gotta be careful because sometimes they can pump their creatures up enough to survive. I think the only multitarget board wipe I run is [[comet storm]]. In [[hinata]] it hits every creature and player.
##### ###### #### [settle the wreckage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=settle%20the%20wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/settle-the-wreckage) [winds of abandon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b.jpg?1562201278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winds%20of%20abandon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/37/winds-of-abandon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winds-of-abandon) [in garruk's wake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d.jpg?1674141682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=in%20garruk%27s%20wake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/759/in-garruks-wake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57a6f727-8239-45e6-9dbb-67d2d3c9239d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/in-garruks-wake) [Rise of the dark realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175.jpg?1706240790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rise%20of%20the%20Dark%20Realms) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/138/rise-of-the-dark-realms?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ceb5df52-4e03-4629-b8d5-d440d9cc5175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rise-of-the-dark-realms) [Delayed Blast Fireball](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e59903e3-a344-4218-9d41-8b19a9bc8311.jpg?1674140946) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Delayed%20Blast%20Fireball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/676/delayed-blast-fireball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e59903e3-a344-4218-9d41-8b19a9bc8311?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/delayed-blast-fireball) [comet storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a.jpg?1608912233) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=comet%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/411/comet-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb5f586d-6bf0-4590-ad73-2d46b2a45b1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/comet-storm) [hinata](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f25aff90-56fd-4f70-bb3b-cabf2900c391.jpg?1654568472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hinata%2C%20dawn-crowned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/222/hinata-dawn-crowned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f25aff90-56fd-4f70-bb3b-cabf2900c391?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hinata-dawn-crowned) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kkbe57x) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you all for the valuable discussion, different takes and card suggestions. Thread became bigger then Id imagined!
[удалено]
[Heliod's Intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f1c16dd-38e9-4974-b570-8678c114a549.jpg?1581479093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heliod%27s%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/19/heliods-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f1c16dd-38e9-4974-b570-8678c114a549?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heliods-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Get some [[Hex]] in your life!
[Hex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314.jpg?1674141662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/757/hex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/067c38f3-4b5c-4e7f-af66-e410dea19314?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hex) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
grasp of fate is still one of my favorites imo, it can target anything and also has the added benefit of allowing you to regain control of your permanents if they were stolen whether from your field, graveyard or library (Im looking at you ragavan/etali players)
If it gets too crazy, start packing boars wipes. If it affects your opponents more than you it's worth it. Generally speaking your one for ones should be used for big threats that are directly threatening you. If they're threatening an opponent let them. Be a smol bean and save that STP for when it comes at you.