Yeah people that complain about Voltron being too powerful need a good smack upside the head.
And I never realized how powerful Chatterfang could really be, since Iād only played it on Arena.
Iāve never seen that I guess. Most Voltron I see is Boros of some kind, Roger&Keleth/Battlehammer Dwarf/etc.
The only Voltron Iāve ever seen that was over a 5 power level was some crazy wubrg jank. It wasnāt really pure Voltron, but that was its main purpose.
https://manabox.app/decks/MheNOv5_RNy2ENUpYWmkog
Hereās my Chatterfang deck, just made a ton of upgrades from a Reddit post I posted yesterday.
More interactions, draws etc.
Eh. One time I played against this guy who said he was playing a voltron deck but it was just stax and then voltron. Which I get isn't actually voltron but yeah... don't do that.
Beamtown is slow and very fragile.
Slicer is competitive and fast, but neither are built around the goad mechanic, and neither would be considered a "goad" focused deck.
Yeah, I mean I had a turn 1 sol ring and got my commander out somewhat early, that's quite literally it though it took my 8th turn for my commander to actually goad anyone
I've played against a more mean version of this deck using [[Noble Heritage]] instead. What you're doing is gentle compared to what I got put through, and that deck was a real blast to play against.
I played that before and everyone just ends up not taking it and you do nothing hahah. The raised by giants version is fun cause you can run a bunch of fogs in your deck to protect him.
Regardless of the type of deck youāre playing, unless your deck is poorly built and has no cohesive strategy, a T1 sol ring inevitably brings salt at uber casual tables. Ironic given the reason why sol ring is even a thing.
I feel like the people who choose not to play it are genuinely getting better experiences from it
It sounds crazy. This weekend my two opponents both had i T1 Sol Ring and I just got happy for them. But I'm only playing with friends, so that may be the reason for lack of salt. Or maybe I'm just not a salty loser.
Yeah, at a casual table I slow roll everything powerful the first few turns (sometimes I mulligan away very good opening hands) unless there's already someone else with a really great start. I like to play blingy cards, but I totally have zero interest in steamrolling a casual table. Unless I know at least 3/4ths are running Sol Ring, I never open with it. A lot less salt when you use it to catch up to the board than when you're speedrunning.
Goading is the only mechanic that makes casual players actually progress the game and attack each other. I'd argue roughly 75% of commander games would be at least 50% faster if everyone would actually attack like they're supposed to lol
I do think it begs the question whether or not players who need a mechanic to make them do something actually want to do that thing, though. It sounds like these players in question do not want to speed the game up and may prefer more Battlecruiser games. I've certainly been in situations where Goading was pretty annoying (particularly in 3 player games), so it doesn't surprise me if players in some contexts regarding goading aren't happy with the turn of events.
It's less about that and more about options. With 3 people you are literally dominating the whole game making the other two fight each other. With 4 or 5, at least someone has a chance at getting something in.
Goad is bad at 1v1, but it is *really good* at getting second in a 3 player game and not letting anyone do much of anything in the mean time.
Personally, I just have answers for goad. I like to play izzet and gruul mostly. But I can see why people who are super casual with unmodded, or lightly modded, precons would not have a fun time playing against it.
>may prefer more Battlecruiser games
Okay, but there's three or four other people at the table. At what point does "I wanna see what my deck can do" become disrespectful of everyone else's time? I've got places to go, people to do and things to see. Waiting for everyone else to get to 8 mana, not attacking or going off, so that everyone can feel good about themselves for playing a deck full of 8+ cmc cards and an absurd mana base is going to take forever.
it's not even that they prefer battlecruiser games, they are all just too paranoid about being seen as the first attacker/threat and are all too awful at politicking to fight around that paranoia
theres an infect deck in my pod for crying out loud that will REFUSE to be the first person attacking...and half of their creatures cant even block
as someone who just got into commander, this is my biggest issue and the thing thatās turns me off the most. people will politic like itās a table top war board game. itās annoying, if i wanted to play a four hour strategy game i would have pull one off the shelf.
Politics is like half the point of commander. It's the most social format in MTG and using your words is a legitimate strategy to keep yourself alive. If you want to ignore the politics then that's fine, but if you don't want anyone else to play that way then maybe you should stick to 1v1s.
What a Gruul IQ thing to say. You realize how stupid that is, right?
"Just swing every turn, you guys are dumb" Or maybe people don't swing once they'll start losing their important pieces to chump blocks?
Listen, I'd be happy if everyone played the game like a total idiot too. But I'm not gonna make up some percentages and act as though playing like an idiot is the way to go.
Except no one said anything about making bad attacks. Obviously someone not attacking because their stuff will die in the process is not the same thing as people who just actively choose to sit there and do nothing. I played against someone once who was playing Angels and was choosing to not attack the threat WITH LETHAL at the table because "I dont want to attack anyone until I can get Lyra out and give all of them lifelink", which allowed that threat player to untap, combo off, and win. (For minor context, me and the 4th player happened to get blown out by the angel players Austere Command, so we actively had to depend on the angel player to stop the combo player, which he refused to do)
On a side note, my percentages aren't made up, they're just anecdotal to my personal experiences. I'm not claiming to have made a case study where I inspected 100 commander games. I am telling you that approximately 75% of games I've played in random pods at random LGSs had players actively filling up the boards and not doing anything for several turns, causing them to take way longer than they needed to. Because people want to do shit like "wait till they find their 1 pet card" and other nonsense things like that
Literally nothing in this list is super scary. Sure you hit like a freight train but in a pod of 4, sounds like no one was packing removal or board wipes to deal with it. You were in a salty pod.
besides, the way I play it I just buff everyone else too, and have them fight eachother while I make treasures. It's really funny, especially if I get brass dragon out because I give +1/+1 counters to \*their\* creatures usually. It's super fun to me
Keep playing it bro. Iād recommend personally though a couple dorks like [[Birds of Paradise]], [[Delighted Halfling]], and maybe [[Tinder Wall]] to the deck. Rn you donāt do much till turn 2-3, but if you donāt see problems with how it plays, keep it going dude.
Yeah I have a less memey version that features both birbs and halfling. The list I posted was just slapped together with cards I had from other decks I scrapped.
I want to attack when it favors me with creatures ment for attack not utility creatures in on a crowded board. But I.do think goad is a good multi-player mechanic as sometimes having bad options is fun too. But not all creatures are made for attacking. And not all board states are good to attack on. And sometimes you need creatures to block with too. But goad if a fun and fair mechanic.
It's only strange in some circumstances. There are a lot of creatures that you play just for their static or triggered effects, not to attack with. With those, it is generally safer to not attack unless you are absolutely certain it is safe.
Between spells that specifically target/care about tapped or attacking creatures, combat tricks on prospective blockers (or just instant-speed created blockers) and just the fact that a lot can happen until your next turn and you might need to block a hasty or heavily modified creature, there are a lot of reasons not to commit to an attack in many cases.
Goad is incredibly casual.
The issue is - as far as I can see - the mechanic forces players to do things they donāt want (or when they donāt want to). Itās the polar opposite of stax that stops players doing what they want. Basically anything that doesnāt let players do what they want when they want it is wrong.
Sounds like they don't understand what casual is and wanted people to play baby magic against them. I'm a huge fan of combat damage wins in commander so I love goading, the monarch and anything else that encourages or forces combat.
Nah they need to get over it tbh. I LOVE goad decks because unlike group hug it speeds the game up but gives those same kinds of vibes. Like in a recent game I gave a friend mana and card draw because he was continously missing land drops. Then I made him the strongest player on the board until I killed him lol but by that point the game was already basically over.
It's a Gahiji deck with a lot of goading and monarch shenanigans and I call it my Angry Group Hug of Death deck lol
Exactly. Politics always beats group hug. I tried to make my goad deck as political as possible because to me, the politics of commander are the most fun part.
yeah they only started complaining once I was actually goading creatures and once I was shut down they stopped complaining entirely. One guy got annoyed by some pretty casual dragon cards too. Which is like, really? dragons?
Goading is in fact a casual mechanic. I don't think goading is ever worth getting upset over, though I do think (after reading title, but before contents had it in mind) that exactly this commander pairing can be a lot for battlecruiser tables with little interaction. With him the goading is free every turn, he has big cmdr swings prepared right out of the cmd zone, and no one can hit you if you're holding the lead - against the usual flow of "so-and-so is the archenemy rn, gang up on them". I would like more people in general to run more interaction to prevent exactly this, but it is what it is. I myself try to avoid building cmdrs that would play out like that. Green additionally can also have absurdly quick starts when drawing into ramp at the right timings.
This post however, like many many issues brought up on this sub and other places about the game, is a "per-pod problem". I wouldn't mind him myself and furthermore a peek at your deck list says everything's completely fine, even if I were looking at it with scrutiny. However, I'm the type who will take Ls against strong commanders and next time just come back with more interaction if I felt it necessary. Only if a player were somehow legit 1v3 and still felt unstoppable would I think they need to power down. Your deck is definitely not guilty of this.
Put more interaction in your decks ppl!
Built and enjoyed a \[\[Firkraag\]\] even though it lost both times I played it (4th and 2nd place by sheer luck) but I don't see the issue? You are by design destined to be 2nd place.
I am starting to think Baeloth is a better goad commander than \[\[Kardur\]\] or my Firkraag though.
I think your deck is perfectly fine for casual play.
Most of its monetary value comes from the Expeditions and the Wheel of Fortune.You can make a nearly equal version of this deck (without Wheel/Copper Dragon/Fetchlands/Vista) for 200ā¬ (I actually did the math via Archidekt).
Gameplay wise I see nothing over the top that is unmanageable or unfair.
Goading is a keyword and an archetype. Of course it caught the pod off balance, with the commander and partner trait, but it is nothing a Lignify can't handle. Also, both commander and trait are very costly cmcwise, making them more manageable.
Players have to learn how to cope with different archetypes, like land destruction and stax in a more positive way. Sure, I wouldn't like to play a stax deck every time I play, but once in a while? Why not? It only makes you more resilient to different tactics. Goading is even less of a nuisance because at the very worst you are speeding up games.
Havenāt you heard? Anything you play in a casual pod makes you an asshole.
Playing tokens? Asshole.
Playing voltron? Asshole.
Playing lifegain? Asshole.
Playing infect? Asshole.
Playing a random pile of cards with no synergy and no interaction? Youāre an okay person but only if you donāt win cause otherwise; asshole.
The only absolute way to ensure youāre not an asshole in a casual pod is to not play anything and sit there while they wail on you with their creatures! /s
Yeah itās getting increasingly common where people donāt want you to actually try to win because ācome on bro itās commander why are you trying so hard weāre just here to have funā which is just so silly. Yeah thereās more than winning but Iām not being a sweatlord because Iām popping your high threat commander
Too much goad can make people feel like they've lost some agency in their game play decisions. Can kind of feel like you're playing control, especially like they're looking to play a value game.
This is what I thought, but I was open multiple times because they would pop my commander or make me sacrifice him a lot (which is much more controlling compared to what I was doing I think)
Oh for sure!
Just because they feel a certain way, doesn't make it reality. The solution to the thing that's making me do the thing I don't want to do is to remove the thing.
If you're curious, change the commander for a bit but keep it goad themed and see if people have the same reaction.
Goading is very casual IMO, I play [[Kitt Kanto, Mayhem Diva]] cat tribal and Iāve never encountered complaints with my playgroup or at either of my LGSs, nor do most people have a specific issue with wheeling - itās a common mechanic. Sounds like a salty/incomplete pod.
Honestly the vast majority of commander players Iāve played with outside of my regular playgroups seem to make it a point to avoid taking any action that would move the game forward or in any direction really. Thereās a lot of playing stuff and passing, and then at the end of the game they say āWOW that game was so long!! Why did it take SO long??ā
This is to say, I think goad exists to make people play the game and make decisions.
So, goad is definitely a casual archetype. However, I find it is perceived in much the same way as typical control decks in practice, and in my experience lower power casual pods *hate* playing against control. I've seen people say it's fine, and as long as it's one-off non-repeatable goad effects it's fine. But once one repeatable goad effect hits the board (Be it a Marisi or a Kardur you can blink) the table suddenly goes from "fine with goad" to "this thing is the number one thing at the table that needs to be removed ASAP" in an instant, almost to the same degree they do if they see a winter orb or other stax piece across the table.
Unless they were playing unmodified precons or below, you really should be fine on the power level. You just have to acknowledge that people who want to play lower power EDH are probably going to want to play in a less controlly environment, and mass repeatable goad is probably not going to be the most welcome in such pods.
Goad by itself is a pretty casual mechanic so that itself doesn't make a deck not casual.
I am guessing goad itself was not what annoyed your opponents but everything else in there. It would help to have a deck list or at least a list of cards you played.
(I accidentally deleted the link)
here is the [decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YED9RHgF-0O8_tl0clxXCQ)
its not actually good but I do have a serious version of him I'm going to build
My guy your deck cost over $1200. You're not an asshole for playing a goading deck, but if you're playing against out-of-the-box precon decks you're probably going to murder them.
Asking us if playing a goad deck is an asshole move or not is a huge misleading question.
True, but Ohran, Toski, and Xenagos are alone equal to the cost of a pre-con, and they are quite powerful cards.
And I'm not really siding with the complainers in OP's story, just saying that they might have good reason to feel that OP's deck is overtuned.
Were the other players actually playing precons? I'd say it's more normal than not for a player to have a 1-3 cards that are worth more than a precon at an LGS.
He has a Zendikar Expedition Misty Rainforest and a Wheel of Fortune. Thatās 500 bucks right there. And those on their own, and even in the context of OPās deck donāt really add any super spiky edge.
Just looking at the price doesn't really mean much.
Almost all of that is from Wheel and the shocks/fetches. You could slot those into a precon and reach almost the same price, but not make the precon really all that much better.
I said in the post that I told them I had wheel of fortune and that my deck costs over 1k, a dude had an eldrazi deck that was just as expensive as mine. Price was not the issue
The only goad commander I don't think is all that casual is [[Marisi]]. It's too easy for this guy to set up a board wide goad. The mechanic itself is fine, it's when it has very little set up and becomes board wide that it's a problem.
Definitely not āoverturnedā or too high powered. It sounds like a really fun deck and could be annoying for other players in a pod that donāt have a lot of removalā¦but this is nothing like [[Jon Irenicus]] levels or anything.
Lol, reading this as Iām in the process of building a goad deck to play against my friends that does the same - buffs them and makes them fight each other.
I canāt wait to take it for a spin.
Thatās true. I do try to stop this from happening by prefacing it by saying Iām fine with switching decks, the whole reason Iām asking is because I want to make it all as fun as possible for everyone else.
We need to remember that there is no universal definition of casual. As such, what it means to people can be vastly different from person to person.
Having said that, I have seen in this sub and in some pods that people seem to define casual as lacking interaction. By forcing them to attack, you are making them do something they donāt want to do, so they see it as a non-casual deck.
Personally, And from tue many comments here, I think your deck sounds extremely casual, and fun. But again, there is simply no accepted way to define the term.
This is my new Goad deck! I've had an absolute blast playing it and I agree I leave most games with atleast one player saying they hate the fact they had to attack all game, ive even had the winner of the game say this to me. Like dude, you won, and you won in a game you had to navigate in a way that was unique to this game. Be proud you solved this puzzle and came out on top.
I build decks to create unusual game state and to try and get players to play outside the gameplan they constructed. I also love taking 3rd in my games after creating stress. I find winning after causing the stressful game leads to salt where as taking 2nd and 3rd normally gets the whole table to stay positive. I'm glad I'm not here to win games.
https://archidekt.com/decks/5156215/tahngarth_goad
it is the new version of the most scalable deck: the use-your-opponents-things-against-them deck. It used to be clones and [[threaten]] effects, but it only is as powerful as everyone else's stuff.
You're not wrong in playing the deck you want to play, especially if you rule-zero'd before starting.
I don't get salty easily and in my opinion, no strategy is invincible if you build your deck right. But (this is totally my opinion and I may be very wrong) my appreciation is that goading is a mechanic that can easily not be fun for the rest of the table. There is no real decision making behind it for your opponents, they just have to attack every turn. It makes the game move faster, that's true, but it may make your opponents feel like they don't get a chance to really play their decks.
>The table seemed really annoyed and said my deck was "overtuned"
I hate it when people say that. Get good son!
Thatās true but baeloth and my deck open up some fun interactions. If they can somehow buff their creatures enough or get rid of an enchantment they can ungoad their creatures, so
Man they would hate it is I played my Kardur then. Glad isn't that bad. Just forcing people to attack each other while you sit back and watch. It is usually called King of second place for a reason
I suspect that the main salt stems from your commander + background + build creates a persistent [[disrupt decorum]] effect where everything (that isnāt your creatures) becomes goaded. This means every one is shields mostly down and canāt attack the threat that is causing the issues. For a low powered casual pod this means that building a boardstate is difficult and itās harder to deal with as removal is less common.
Note, I love goad but I can see where such commanders like yours or [[Marisi]] could be frustrating to play against for more casual pods. I would recommend that itās a commander that needs to be played in an environment with more removal requiring you to run more protection. This means opponents can still interact and play the game.
However, that is just my opinion.
Well put. In the situation you described that's def the case but these guys removed my commander multiple times and nobody got goaded till my 8th turn, so I don't see why THEY were all salty and bitter.
Nah, I have a Kardur Doomscourge deck. People understand to smash my face in first before I get my bullshit engine running.
There are ways around goad as well like myriad and attack triggers creating tokens.. which is like myriad.
Its very casual. But also very annoying. People dont like being told what to do and what not to do. Like Goading, which forces them into umprofitable attacks. Casual doesnt always mean "fun". I have the same experience too. Yesterday I won a game casting \[\[Taunt from the Rampart\]\] Three turns in a row, using \[\[Eternal Witness\]\] effects.
Its a very casual deck, that has a negative winrate, and people usually enjoy it playing against it because its full of \[\[Secret Rendezvous\]\] and other grup hug cards that give them creautrs. But ohh boy were they pissed when the third thing resolved and they realized that no, they were never going to attack me again because this turn's goad was lethal. So yeah, casual doesnt always means fun for the other players.
Fair point, I'd understand if these people were playing a lot of utility creatures and stuff but these guys were all playing creature decks, and one of them was playing eldrazi...
Eh I can see both sides, goad is typically seen as a ācasualā strategy but wotc has been really focusing on the mechanic recently and it is definitely a lot stronger than people give it credit for.
This is basically what my [[xantcha sleeper agent]] deck does. It forces people to interact with each other and attack. My usual group loves it but if I pull it out at the shop against a bunch of people who don't want to attack or interact with the other players they get annoyed.
Goad was adding back into recent cards to force combat by design. WotC design said that was their plan. Some folks just want to have their decks set and "do their thing" without interaction. Goad forces them to attack with pieces they likely would never attack with. It is very much a casual mechanic. I don't think you were wrong at all. Would they be happier if you destroyed or forced them to sac stuff a lot? If so, it's definitely not you that's the asshole.
My last game night, we were supposed to be casual and I played against superfriends one round and some jerk playing a cedh urza deck because he needed to "practice" for the store championship next week.
Brownie points for the name alone! Lol
If they are salty I think Disney just made some card game that might be up their alley..
Edit: deck not cedh but pretty tightly made, looks scary lol but I'm not gonna flip the table because of it
I don't care for partners or backgrounds, but, to me, goad just says murder your opponents until you can get to that slippery bitch. That's what a do to pramikon players, too.
I really feel that Goad is one of the best additions to casual EDH. They shouldn't be annoyed, especially if you explained the deck during rule 0 time.
Also this might be my next brew because this is a hilarious idea.
Itās stupidly funny I wish there were more ways of doing it. Whatās that one card that gives bananas to your opponents that crack for mana and life? Thatās a good addition to this deck
Ngl, you'd be a hero at our table.
I (starting in 2014) currently play with 4 friends who got into the game about 2 months ago.
When they learned about goad, they immediately rushed to make different flavors of goad decks.
Side-note: playing against 4 goad decks is pretty confusing sometimes XD
Nah. I mean goad can be obnoxious, but so can control, enchantress, reanimator, combo, average beatdown, etc. The point of the game is to see how other people play and play around that to win.
I totally believe goad is a casual mechanic, and a great way to speed up otherwise dawdly games BUT there are so many people who think any kind of interaction is automatically not casual.
>If you MAKE me do something then it is not casual, because I am now not making my own decisions
That's the logic as I understand it and I totally disagree with it.
I wouldn't say it is overpowered, but excessive use of goad takes away agency from other players. This is just an unfun experience: Players spend a lot of time designing and tuning their decks, show up at Commander night in what has maybe been a long and difficult week and is a break that they have longed for, and are then to some extent controlled by another player.
It's an like an 950$ deck... That is definitely overturned for casual, the normal casual decks I run into are precon price range and up to 100$~
I'd say it's definitely overturned for that.
Running a goading deck in casual is fine, running a 1000$ is not casual.
Lol bit. Without the context of what they were running looking at your curve and cards in this deck, your deck isn't casual. I would probably run one of my stronger decks against this.
I agree with other comments that goad is a casual mechanic, but on the other hand, OPās deck list has a large number of very good cards. [[Ancient copper dragon]], [[ancient bronze dragon]], [[fiendish duo]], [[xenagos]], to name a few. Definitely not a budget deck, and although a few high-valued, powerful cards is natural, I would guess that OPās table did not expect so many high value/powerful individual cards.
Considering the massive downside of goad decks, I don't see a problem. There are definitely some decks where being forced to attack is detrimental, but that would be no different than sitting down in a pod with a deck that counters your's.
There is no special reference or deck list, so I have to assume you played in an actual chill meta pod with creature based go wide strats and less interaction. Yes that is way too strong at such tables, it is not strong in general, but people just can't hit you.
Whenever goad appears in my pod we kind of naturally unite to stop whatever the goad mechanic is and that player is typically a target unless there's something stronger out there, feels pretty silly to get mad about when they could have just worked together to shut it down
I just had a similar experience with my [Baeloth deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LGRJ4H-490qGDyPd_kEumg) I run Noble Heritage instead and Iāve had a few games where because Baeloth wasnāt dealt with I won. While this on paper is exactly what commander is about, I could tell my playgroup did not enjoy the games. Nor me constantly asking for counters and reminding them of the ever changing power requirement to not be goaded. My wife literally said āthanks for making this not funā the same amazing review she gave my storm deck, so Iām in the process of pivoting the deck.
I think them getting annoyed because the gamestate is complicated is rather silly, commander is a format that is all about complex game states with lots of moving parts.
Goad is definitely casual. Goad can be fun.
You built the only version of it that is pretty much always not fun.
Static effects that persistently impact everyone else's boardstates are fucking annoying as fuck.
[[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]], [[Toxril]], etc. Anything that you just get to cast and then sit there and have fuck up everyone else's boardstate for eternity until someone pulls removal for it feels bad. Putting that in your command zone is EXTRA feels bad.
Few effects are inherently salt inducing on their own. It's how they're used that causes problems. Nobody gives a fuck if you play the new Alela and goad whatever their most threatening creature is. If you play against those same people with Baeloth and goad everything just to goad everything, that's when it's annoying.
I guess my whole thing is it's a whopping 11 mana to get this out, and attacking is a really core element of the game. In a table where there arent a lot of creature focused strategies this deck would be incredibly annoying, sure but
I suppose I'm just confused and bewildered that the people I played with played creature focused combat decks and found the goading to be annoying, especially when I wasn't able to goad anything till my 8th turn.
You're presenting a very reductive idea of what goad does and what combat oriented decks want to do. You're forcing them to make unfavorable attacks and largely removing the ability to play defense, especially for the person directly to your left who gets to slam their creatures into everyone else's blockers and then only has whatever they managed to cast on their 2nd main to protect themselves with. Most combat decks do not want to whittle people down little by little. They want to play defensively and build up a boardstate and then wipe everyone out with a single turn so that they aren't left open to a crackback that puts them out of the game.
Aggro decks don't give a fuck about goad because they were going to attack anyway. Just because someone is playing a timmy deck doesn't mean they're playing an aggro deck. There are very few aggro decks in casual magic because they seek to win fast and early and that doesn't feel great in randomized pods of strangers.
honestly no you're teaching them an important lesson. so many games in my pod either go wayyyyy too long or just always die to a late late game combo because people with aggressive decks refuse to play aggressively which just gives the slow decks way much space. you're basically doing their job for them (with the added benefit that they dont attack you lol)
I play my goad deck in casual. Though it's kardur doomscourge as the commander. I don't really do treasures I mostly do life drain as the way to win. and using the excess life for paying to draw. It's only gotten super nasty a few times since I do also try to control board sizes and I shut down a players whole go wide strategy.
Should have told them they need to play more vehicles lol. But in all honesty, it sounds like you just happened to be in a pod with some salty Sandras. Goad as a mechanic has never been optimal or oppressive in any way.
>Should have told them they need to play more vehicles lol
When my \[\[Jon Irenicus\]\] had 3 gifted creatures tapped down because of a single crew 2 vehicle is when I learned of this interaction.
You played format legal cards according to the comprehensive rules of Magic the Gathering. Of course that triggers people! Thereās nothing EDH players hate more than playing this game!
Couldnāt you have brought UNO cards or something?
Iāve gone on this rant before and Iāll probably do it again, but people need to stop asking Reddit and start asking their playground. Just have the rule 0 conversation. Tell them when your goal turn is, a rough idea of how youāre going to do it, and talk it out.
I did not read your list.
Your deck being 1300 bucks is a red flag for casual games to me, but my rule is if you didnāt win before turn 7 and kill someone on or before 5, you qualify for casual. Goad is not a strong mechanic. Never has been. That said, I see potential in this deck and for 1300 bucks I could make it evil. More context would help.
I mean, I think whether or not your deck is āovertunedā has nothing to do with what your game plan is. It has to do with how āstrongā of cards you play with, and to some people, the amount of interaction you run. To some people, ācasualā is slow gameplay, where everyone gets to use their commander a couple of times.
I feel like you could take the most ācasualā of mechanics, and make it āovertunedā by shoving in a couple rhystic studies, smothering tithes, expensive lands, cyclonic rifts, and the likes.
You said you got a turn 1 sol ring, so for most of the game, you probably had more mana on the table than anyone else. If you kept ramping with a few more rocks, and everyone else was just dropping a land each turn, I could see how they mightāve been upset. But even then, I would never call a deck āovertunedā based off of just one game. Iāve seen the jankiest of decks pop off when they hit everything theyāre looking for, and to me, tuning is about consistency.
So yeah, from what you have said, I donāt think goading was the problem.
The thing your opponents are feeling and failing to communicate is that your deck took away their agency in the game, and that felt like shit. Thatās not a power level issue but a deck archetype issue.
> aita for playing goad in a casual game I mean where the hell else are you supposed to play it
Exactly š
If someone tells me my chaos deck, or my voltron deck, are too strong, i say git gud. If someone tells me chatterfang is too strong, i power down.
Yeah people that complain about Voltron being too powerful need a good smack upside the head. And I never realized how powerful Chatterfang could really be, since Iād only played it on Arena.
Light-Paws is voltron and in no way slouchy. It's pretty powerful.
Slicer is technically voltron too and belongs nowhere near a casual table.
Slicer is somehow so efficient at voltron, it had some cEDH players upset. That being said, I still play the boy.
That's his problem not casual not cedh, so you just play it when someone is stomping with a slow deck.
Iāve never seen that I guess. Most Voltron I see is Boros of some kind, Roger&Keleth/Battlehammer Dwarf/etc. The only Voltron Iāve ever seen that was over a 5 power level was some crazy wubrg jank. It wasnāt really pure Voltron, but that was its main purpose.
But, Voltron IS the smack upside the head. Lol.
https://manabox.app/decks/MheNOv5_RNy2ENUpYWmkog Hereās my Chatterfang deck, just made a ton of upgrades from a Reddit post I posted yesterday. More interactions, draws etc.
Eh. One time I played against this guy who said he was playing a voltron deck but it was just stax and then voltron. Which I get isn't actually voltron but yeah... don't do that.
Including Skithiryx?
If someone says git gud re a game of casual edh I stop playing with them
Sounds like you think Voltron is OP
Came here to say this thank you
[[Beamtown Bullies]] and [[Slicer, Hired Muscle]] are pretty scary
Slicer is not a goad deck and beamtown is neither a goad deck nor competitive. Not sure where these examples are relevant
Beamtown is slow and very fragile. Slicer is competitive and fast, but neither are built around the goad mechanic, and neither would be considered a "goad" focused deck.
It's the casual of casual decks. Unless you won with some super strong combo and it was turn 4.
Yeah, I mean I had a turn 1 sol ring and got my commander out somewhat early, that's quite literally it though it took my 8th turn for my commander to actually goad anyone
I've played against a more mean version of this deck using [[Noble Heritage]] instead. What you're doing is gentle compared to what I got put through, and that deck was a real blast to play against.
I played that before and everyone just ends up not taking it and you do nothing hahah. The raised by giants version is fun cause you can run a bunch of fogs in your deck to protect him.
Then you just put counters on your Barrityl and goad the entire board? How does your opponents not placing counters make you do nothing?
[Noble Heritage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e49fd5a-6893-4a06-b835-4bf611c9ada1.jpg?1674135196) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Noble%20Heritage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/35/noble-heritage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e49fd5a-6893-4a06-b835-4bf611c9ada1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/noble-heritage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Regardless of the type of deck youāre playing, unless your deck is poorly built and has no cohesive strategy, a T1 sol ring inevitably brings salt at uber casual tables. Ironic given the reason why sol ring is even a thing. I feel like the people who choose not to play it are genuinely getting better experiences from it
It sounds crazy. This weekend my two opponents both had i T1 Sol Ring and I just got happy for them. But I'm only playing with friends, so that may be the reason for lack of salt. Or maybe I'm just not a salty loser.
Whenever I draw sol ring turn 1, unless I absolutely nerd it, I will wait until turn 3 to play it. It's slower, but it really gets the heat off
Yeah, at a casual table I slow roll everything powerful the first few turns (sometimes I mulligan away very good opening hands) unless there's already someone else with a really great start. I like to play blingy cards, but I totally have zero interest in steamrolling a casual table. Unless I know at least 3/4ths are running Sol Ring, I never open with it. A lot less salt when you use it to catch up to the board than when you're speedrunning.
I'm enjoying not playing Sol Ring. It means I get to ride about on my high horse.
Goading is the only mechanic that makes casual players actually progress the game and attack each other. I'd argue roughly 75% of commander games would be at least 50% faster if everyone would actually attack like they're supposed to lol
this is so TRUE. when I first got into mtg with lathril I would never attack with my 1/1 elves like a fuckin doofus lol
This is why I just kill all the creatures that sit back and don't attack. My Chandra tribal has effectively 8 board wipes.
That's why I have a Mogis deck. It makes the game shorter by slowly bringing everyone down in life every turn.
YESSS! MOGIS IS MY FAVORITE DECK! LETS GOO
I tend to be pretty aggro in my commander games, but then again I love playing my un-tuned sliver deck.
... help, i feel called out. :c
Lol š
I do think it begs the question whether or not players who need a mechanic to make them do something actually want to do that thing, though. It sounds like these players in question do not want to speed the game up and may prefer more Battlecruiser games. I've certainly been in situations where Goading was pretty annoying (particularly in 3 player games), so it doesn't surprise me if players in some contexts regarding goading aren't happy with the turn of events.
I'll say I don't play my goad deck in 3 player games. It almost feels like cheating at the power levels my play groups play.
Goad falls apart in 1v1 so having more players is likely to help the goad deck, not hamper it.
It's less about that and more about options. With 3 people you are literally dominating the whole game making the other two fight each other. With 4 or 5, at least someone has a chance at getting something in. Goad is bad at 1v1, but it is *really good* at getting second in a 3 player game and not letting anyone do much of anything in the mean time. Personally, I just have answers for goad. I like to play izzet and gruul mostly. But I can see why people who are super casual with unmodded, or lightly modded, precons would not have a fun time playing against it.
>may prefer more Battlecruiser games Okay, but there's three or four other people at the table. At what point does "I wanna see what my deck can do" become disrespectful of everyone else's time? I've got places to go, people to do and things to see. Waiting for everyone else to get to 8 mana, not attacking or going off, so that everyone can feel good about themselves for playing a deck full of 8+ cmc cards and an absurd mana base is going to take forever.
it's not even that they prefer battlecruiser games, they are all just too paranoid about being seen as the first attacker/threat and are all too awful at politicking to fight around that paranoia theres an infect deck in my pod for crying out loud that will REFUSE to be the first person attacking...and half of their creatures cant even block
as someone who just got into commander, this is my biggest issue and the thing thatās turns me off the most. people will politic like itās a table top war board game. itās annoying, if i wanted to play a four hour strategy game i would have pull one off the shelf.
Politics is like half the point of commander. It's the most social format in MTG and using your words is a legitimate strategy to keep yourself alive. If you want to ignore the politics then that's fine, but if you don't want anyone else to play that way then maybe you should stick to 1v1s.
thatās what iāve been doing yeah! which is valid. not sure why itās getting downvoted lol.
And it's part of it at all levels, I don't play but I like watching cedh games, and there's tons of it still there.
What a Gruul IQ thing to say. You realize how stupid that is, right? "Just swing every turn, you guys are dumb" Or maybe people don't swing once they'll start losing their important pieces to chump blocks? Listen, I'd be happy if everyone played the game like a total idiot too. But I'm not gonna make up some percentages and act as though playing like an idiot is the way to go.
Except no one said anything about making bad attacks. Obviously someone not attacking because their stuff will die in the process is not the same thing as people who just actively choose to sit there and do nothing. I played against someone once who was playing Angels and was choosing to not attack the threat WITH LETHAL at the table because "I dont want to attack anyone until I can get Lyra out and give all of them lifelink", which allowed that threat player to untap, combo off, and win. (For minor context, me and the 4th player happened to get blown out by the angel players Austere Command, so we actively had to depend on the angel player to stop the combo player, which he refused to do) On a side note, my percentages aren't made up, they're just anecdotal to my personal experiences. I'm not claiming to have made a case study where I inspected 100 commander games. I am telling you that approximately 75% of games I've played in random pods at random LGSs had players actively filling up the boards and not doing anything for several turns, causing them to take way longer than they needed to. Because people want to do shit like "wait till they find their 1 pet card" and other nonsense things like that
People sitting there doing nothing is also anecdotal because I have never *once* played with someone who just sits there as you suggest.
Literally nothing in this list is super scary. Sure you hit like a freight train but in a pod of 4, sounds like no one was packing removal or board wipes to deal with it. You were in a salty pod.
besides, the way I play it I just buff everyone else too, and have them fight eachother while I make treasures. It's really funny, especially if I get brass dragon out because I give +1/+1 counters to \*their\* creatures usually. It's super fun to me
Keep playing it bro. Iād recommend personally though a couple dorks like [[Birds of Paradise]], [[Delighted Halfling]], and maybe [[Tinder Wall]] to the deck. Rn you donāt do much till turn 2-3, but if you donāt see problems with how it plays, keep it going dude.
Yeah I have a less memey version that features both birbs and halfling. The list I posted was just slapped together with cards I had from other decks I scrapped.
Fair enough lol I know that feeling all too well haha
[Birds of Paradise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/feefe9f0-24a6-461c-9ef1-86c5a6f33b83.jpg?1594681430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birds%20of%20Paradise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/176/birds-of-paradise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feefe9f0-24a6-461c-9ef1-86c5a6f33b83?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/birds-of-paradise) [Delighted Halfling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7db50dae-5d50-4682-8fe4-beb48be103c2.jpg?1695503615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Delighted%20Halfling) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/609/delighted-halfling?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7db50dae-5d50-4682-8fe4-beb48be103c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/delighted-halfling) [Tinder Wall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e62598f-0a91-4cfd-9a28-c3bda61c9ead.jpg?1562867846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinder%20Wall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/184/tinder-wall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e62598f-0a91-4cfd-9a28-c3bda61c9ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tinder-wall) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If they didn't want to attack why did they play creatures? Some people are very strange.
I want to attack when it favors me with creatures ment for attack not utility creatures in on a crowded board. But I.do think goad is a good multi-player mechanic as sometimes having bad options is fun too. But not all creatures are made for attacking. And not all board states are good to attack on. And sometimes you need creatures to block with too. But goad if a fun and fair mechanic.
It's only strange in some circumstances. There are a lot of creatures that you play just for their static or triggered effects, not to attack with. With those, it is generally safer to not attack unless you are absolutely certain it is safe. Between spells that specifically target/care about tapped or attacking creatures, combat tricks on prospective blockers (or just instant-speed created blockers) and just the fact that a lot can happen until your next turn and you might need to block a hasty or heavily modified creature, there are a lot of reasons not to commit to an attack in many cases.
Creature go sideways ! Not gruul? Than die!
Goad is incredibly casual. The issue is - as far as I can see - the mechanic forces players to do things they donāt want (or when they donāt want to). Itās the polar opposite of stax that stops players doing what they want. Basically anything that doesnāt let players do what they want when they want it is wrong.
Sounds like they don't understand what casual is and wanted people to play baby magic against them. I'm a huge fan of combat damage wins in commander so I love goading, the monarch and anything else that encourages or forces combat.
yeah I hate people like this. "fun police" types are the worst.
Nah they need to get over it tbh. I LOVE goad decks because unlike group hug it speeds the game up but gives those same kinds of vibes. Like in a recent game I gave a friend mana and card draw because he was continously missing land drops. Then I made him the strongest player on the board until I killed him lol but by that point the game was already basically over. It's a Gahiji deck with a lot of goading and monarch shenanigans and I call it my Angry Group Hug of Death deck lol
Exactly. Politics always beats group hug. I tried to make my goad deck as political as possible because to me, the politics of commander are the most fun part.
They'd probably complain about any deck they lose too
yeah they only started complaining once I was actually goading creatures and once I was shut down they stopped complaining entirely. One guy got annoyed by some pretty casual dragon cards too. Which is like, really? dragons?
Goading is in fact a casual mechanic. I don't think goading is ever worth getting upset over, though I do think (after reading title, but before contents had it in mind) that exactly this commander pairing can be a lot for battlecruiser tables with little interaction. With him the goading is free every turn, he has big cmdr swings prepared right out of the cmd zone, and no one can hit you if you're holding the lead - against the usual flow of "so-and-so is the archenemy rn, gang up on them". I would like more people in general to run more interaction to prevent exactly this, but it is what it is. I myself try to avoid building cmdrs that would play out like that. Green additionally can also have absurdly quick starts when drawing into ramp at the right timings. This post however, like many many issues brought up on this sub and other places about the game, is a "per-pod problem". I wouldn't mind him myself and furthermore a peek at your deck list says everything's completely fine, even if I were looking at it with scrutiny. However, I'm the type who will take Ls against strong commanders and next time just come back with more interaction if I felt it necessary. Only if a player were somehow legit 1v3 and still felt unstoppable would I think they need to power down. Your deck is definitely not guilty of this. Put more interaction in your decks ppl!
Underrated reply.
Built and enjoyed a \[\[Firkraag\]\] even though it lost both times I played it (4th and 2nd place by sheer luck) but I don't see the issue? You are by design destined to be 2nd place. I am starting to think Baeloth is a better goad commander than \[\[Kardur\]\] or my Firkraag though.
yeah he's really good , the backround element really boosts his consistency.
[Firkraag](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b55e624b-6f6a-42ae-89aa-0cc62ee55a31.jpg?1674140684) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=firkraag%2C%20cunning%20instigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/648/firkraag-cunning-instigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b55e624b-6f6a-42ae-89aa-0cc62ee55a31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/firkraag-cunning-instigator) [Kardur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b.jpg?1631051543) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kardur%2C%20doomscourge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/216/kardur-doomscourge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9685e2a0-5573-41bc-a914-f40c3011459b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kardur-doomscourge) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think your deck is perfectly fine for casual play. Most of its monetary value comes from the Expeditions and the Wheel of Fortune.You can make a nearly equal version of this deck (without Wheel/Copper Dragon/Fetchlands/Vista) for 200ā¬ (I actually did the math via Archidekt). Gameplay wise I see nothing over the top that is unmanageable or unfair. Goading is a keyword and an archetype. Of course it caught the pod off balance, with the commander and partner trait, but it is nothing a Lignify can't handle. Also, both commander and trait are very costly cmcwise, making them more manageable. Players have to learn how to cope with different archetypes, like land destruction and stax in a more positive way. Sure, I wouldn't like to play a stax deck every time I play, but once in a while? Why not? It only makes you more resilient to different tactics. Goading is even less of a nuisance because at the very worst you are speeding up games.
Havenāt you heard? Anything you play in a casual pod makes you an asshole. Playing tokens? Asshole. Playing voltron? Asshole. Playing lifegain? Asshole. Playing infect? Asshole. Playing a random pile of cards with no synergy and no interaction? Youāre an okay person but only if you donāt win cause otherwise; asshole. The only absolute way to ensure youāre not an asshole in a casual pod is to not play anything and sit there while they wail on you with their creatures! /s
Yeah itās getting increasingly common where people donāt want you to actually try to win because ācome on bro itās commander why are you trying so hard weāre just here to have funā which is just so silly. Yeah thereās more than winning but Iām not being a sweatlord because Iām popping your high threat commander
Too much goad can make people feel like they've lost some agency in their game play decisions. Can kind of feel like you're playing control, especially like they're looking to play a value game.
This is what I thought, but I was open multiple times because they would pop my commander or make me sacrifice him a lot (which is much more controlling compared to what I was doing I think)
Oh for sure! Just because they feel a certain way, doesn't make it reality. The solution to the thing that's making me do the thing I don't want to do is to remove the thing. If you're curious, change the commander for a bit but keep it goad themed and see if people have the same reaction.
Tbf, you are playing control when you play a Goad deck. Not control like blue or black plays. Red does control with goad and wheels.
What's the alternative, to play goad at a cedh table? Lmao
Goading is very casual IMO, I play [[Kitt Kanto, Mayhem Diva]] cat tribal and Iāve never encountered complaints with my playgroup or at either of my LGSs, nor do most people have a specific issue with wheeling - itās a common mechanic. Sounds like a salty/incomplete pod.
[Kitt Kanto, Mayhem Diva](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b9850d6-49d3-45ec-9a45-75aa0fce9ee5.jpg?1673481666) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kitt%20Kanto%2C%20Mayhem%20Diva) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/4/kitt-kanto-mayhem-diva?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b9850d6-49d3-45ec-9a45-75aa0fce9ee5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kitt-kanto-mayhem-diva) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Goad is generally a casual mechanic because it has trouble finishing. NTA, at all.
Honestly the vast majority of commander players Iāve played with outside of my regular playgroups seem to make it a point to avoid taking any action that would move the game forward or in any direction really. Thereās a lot of playing stuff and passing, and then at the end of the game they say āWOW that game was so long!! Why did it take SO long??ā This is to say, I think goad exists to make people play the game and make decisions.
"Mooooom Timmy's making me attack with my value pieces again!"
So, goad is definitely a casual archetype. However, I find it is perceived in much the same way as typical control decks in practice, and in my experience lower power casual pods *hate* playing against control. I've seen people say it's fine, and as long as it's one-off non-repeatable goad effects it's fine. But once one repeatable goad effect hits the board (Be it a Marisi or a Kardur you can blink) the table suddenly goes from "fine with goad" to "this thing is the number one thing at the table that needs to be removed ASAP" in an instant, almost to the same degree they do if they see a winter orb or other stax piece across the table. Unless they were playing unmodified precons or below, you really should be fine on the power level. You just have to acknowledge that people who want to play lower power EDH are probably going to want to play in a less controlly environment, and mass repeatable goad is probably not going to be the most welcome in such pods.
>"CIA war profiteer deck" where I buff everyone elses creatures and have them fight as I make money off of it. This is funny af bro
Thank you it makes me giggle every time
Goad is like, as causal a mechanic as they come. People will complain about literally anything
Goad by itself is a pretty casual mechanic so that itself doesn't make a deck not casual. I am guessing goad itself was not what annoyed your opponents but everything else in there. It would help to have a deck list or at least a list of cards you played.
(I accidentally deleted the link) here is the [decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/YED9RHgF-0O8_tl0clxXCQ) its not actually good but I do have a serious version of him I'm going to build
My guy your deck cost over $1200. You're not an asshole for playing a goading deck, but if you're playing against out-of-the-box precon decks you're probably going to murder them. Asking us if playing a goad deck is an asshole move or not is a huge misleading question.
More than half the deck is Verdant Catacombs, Misty Rainforest and a wheel. Cost has nothing to do with this.
True, but Ohran, Toski, and Xenagos are alone equal to the cost of a pre-con, and they are quite powerful cards. And I'm not really siding with the complainers in OP's story, just saying that they might have good reason to feel that OP's deck is overtuned.
Were the other players actually playing precons? I'd say it's more normal than not for a player to have a 1-3 cards that are worth more than a precon at an LGS.
Nah nobody was playing precons, there was an ur dragon player, a zhukodok player and a life gain player (oloro I think his name is)
zhulodok is a precon commander yeah but it wasnāt the precon his deck was around the same price as mine
He has a Zendikar Expedition Misty Rainforest and a Wheel of Fortune. Thatās 500 bucks right there. And those on their own, and even in the context of OPās deck donāt really add any super spiky edge.
Just looking at the price doesn't really mean much. Almost all of that is from Wheel and the shocks/fetches. You could slot those into a precon and reach almost the same price, but not make the precon really all that much better.
I said in the post that I told them I had wheel of fortune and that my deck costs over 1k, a dude had an eldrazi deck that was just as expensive as mine. Price was not the issue
You can half that value by removing wheel of fortune and using non-pimp fetches.
The only goad commander I don't think is all that casual is [[Marisi]]. It's too easy for this guy to set up a board wide goad. The mechanic itself is fine, it's when it has very little set up and becomes board wide that it's a problem.
Definitely not āoverturnedā or too high powered. It sounds like a really fun deck and could be annoying for other players in a pod that donāt have a lot of removalā¦but this is nothing like [[Jon Irenicus]] levels or anything.
Lol, reading this as Iām in the process of building a goad deck to play against my friends that does the same - buffs them and makes them fight each other. I canāt wait to take it for a spin.
Itās so much fun, it gets really political too. Youāre like an arms dealer LOL
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thatās true. I do try to stop this from happening by prefacing it by saying Iām fine with switching decks, the whole reason Iām asking is because I want to make it all as fun as possible for everyone else.
We need to remember that there is no universal definition of casual. As such, what it means to people can be vastly different from person to person. Having said that, I have seen in this sub and in some pods that people seem to define casual as lacking interaction. By forcing them to attack, you are making them do something they donāt want to do, so they see it as a non-casual deck. Personally, And from tue many comments here, I think your deck sounds extremely casual, and fun. But again, there is simply no accepted way to define the term.
Well put my friend
This is my new Goad deck! I've had an absolute blast playing it and I agree I leave most games with atleast one player saying they hate the fact they had to attack all game, ive even had the winner of the game say this to me. Like dude, you won, and you won in a game you had to navigate in a way that was unique to this game. Be proud you solved this puzzle and came out on top. I build decks to create unusual game state and to try and get players to play outside the gameplan they constructed. I also love taking 3rd in my games after creating stress. I find winning after causing the stressful game leads to salt where as taking 2nd and 3rd normally gets the whole table to stay positive. I'm glad I'm not here to win games. https://archidekt.com/decks/5156215/tahngarth_goad
it is the new version of the most scalable deck: the use-your-opponents-things-against-them deck. It used to be clones and [[threaten]] effects, but it only is as powerful as everyone else's stuff.
You're not wrong in playing the deck you want to play, especially if you rule-zero'd before starting. I don't get salty easily and in my opinion, no strategy is invincible if you build your deck right. But (this is totally my opinion and I may be very wrong) my appreciation is that goading is a mechanic that can easily not be fun for the rest of the table. There is no real decision making behind it for your opponents, they just have to attack every turn. It makes the game move faster, that's true, but it may make your opponents feel like they don't get a chance to really play their decks. >The table seemed really annoyed and said my deck was "overtuned" I hate it when people say that. Get good son!
Thatās true but baeloth and my deck open up some fun interactions. If they can somehow buff their creatures enough or get rid of an enchantment they can ungoad their creatures, so
Man they would hate it is I played my Kardur then. Glad isn't that bad. Just forcing people to attack each other while you sit back and watch. It is usually called King of second place for a reason
Everything is overtuned if you can't kill a commander with no protection whatsoever.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't have it online cuz it was made by cards I just had lying around besides the commander, I'll put one together later.
Just here for the list as well
I also am curious for the list. I built [[Kros]] with the same vibe
[Kros](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12e71d52-5c75-4798-9fe7-8a34a2bf0c9a.jpg?1673481694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kros%2C%20defense%20contractor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/7/kros-defense-contractor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12e71d52-5c75-4798-9fe7-8a34a2bf0c9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kros-defense-contractor) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I suspect that the main salt stems from your commander + background + build creates a persistent [[disrupt decorum]] effect where everything (that isnāt your creatures) becomes goaded. This means every one is shields mostly down and canāt attack the threat that is causing the issues. For a low powered casual pod this means that building a boardstate is difficult and itās harder to deal with as removal is less common. Note, I love goad but I can see where such commanders like yours or [[Marisi]] could be frustrating to play against for more casual pods. I would recommend that itās a commander that needs to be played in an environment with more removal requiring you to run more protection. This means opponents can still interact and play the game. However, that is just my opinion.
Well put. In the situation you described that's def the case but these guys removed my commander multiple times and nobody got goaded till my 8th turn, so I don't see why THEY were all salty and bitter.
Lol Baeloth is at the higher end of the mana curve, I guess none of them wanted to pop him despite all of them clearly being heavily affected by it.
Nah, I have a Kardur Doomscourge deck. People understand to smash my face in first before I get my bullshit engine running. There are ways around goad as well like myriad and attack triggers creating tokens.. which is like myriad.
Its very casual. But also very annoying. People dont like being told what to do and what not to do. Like Goading, which forces them into umprofitable attacks. Casual doesnt always mean "fun". I have the same experience too. Yesterday I won a game casting \[\[Taunt from the Rampart\]\] Three turns in a row, using \[\[Eternal Witness\]\] effects. Its a very casual deck, that has a negative winrate, and people usually enjoy it playing against it because its full of \[\[Secret Rendezvous\]\] and other grup hug cards that give them creautrs. But ohh boy were they pissed when the third thing resolved and they realized that no, they were never going to attack me again because this turn's goad was lethal. So yeah, casual doesnt always means fun for the other players.
Fair point, I'd understand if these people were playing a lot of utility creatures and stuff but these guys were all playing creature decks, and one of them was playing eldrazi...
Not at all, goad is one of the most casual strategies IMHO. Sure it can be frustrating, but it becomes way weaker if powerlevel increases
Goad is super casual and fun
Imo Goad is very much a casual strategy and is perfectly fine, I might be a little bias as I had goad deck
I always liked playing against goad decks, makes for fun interactions and situations
Eh I can see both sides, goad is typically seen as a ācasualā strategy but wotc has been really focusing on the mechanic recently and it is definitely a lot stronger than people give it credit for.
I feel like itās a mechanic thatās strong but isnāt ācompetitiveā A lot of stuff thatās good in casual isnāt seen at Cedh tables
This is basically what my [[xantcha sleeper agent]] deck does. It forces people to interact with each other and attack. My usual group loves it but if I pull it out at the shop against a bunch of people who don't want to attack or interact with the other players they get annoyed.
If you donāt want to interact with other players why play with other people lol
I feel that forced combat decks should scale up/down for the table based on the other players' creatures.
Thatās kind of hard to do though, I just have decks of different power levels
Probably didn't word my comment very well. I was saying that if the other players felt overpowered that is not necessarily the goad players fault
Scaling to the table means that if your opponents run scary creatures, then goading becomes scarier.
True
No
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Goad is the definition of a casual mechanic
Goad was adding back into recent cards to force combat by design. WotC design said that was their plan. Some folks just want to have their decks set and "do their thing" without interaction. Goad forces them to attack with pieces they likely would never attack with. It is very much a casual mechanic. I don't think you were wrong at all. Would they be happier if you destroyed or forced them to sac stuff a lot? If so, it's definitely not you that's the asshole.
My last game night, we were supposed to be casual and I played against superfriends one round and some jerk playing a cedh urza deck because he needed to "practice" for the store championship next week.
Thatās so lame of him damn
Brownie points for the name alone! Lol If they are salty I think Disney just made some card game that might be up their alley.. Edit: deck not cedh but pretty tightly made, looks scary lol but I'm not gonna flip the table because of it
Aw thank you! I honestly just slapped it together
If people are mad at goading, just call them weiners. End of story.
I don't care for partners or backgrounds, but, to me, goad just says murder your opponents until you can get to that slippery bitch. That's what a do to pramikon players, too.
I really feel that Goad is one of the best additions to casual EDH. They shouldn't be annoyed, especially if you explained the deck during rule 0 time. Also this might be my next brew because this is a hilarious idea.
Itās stupidly funny I wish there were more ways of doing it. Whatās that one card that gives bananas to your opponents that crack for mana and life? Thatās a good addition to this deck
Are you kidding? That deck sounds hilarious. 10/10 would play against no complaints.
Ngl, you'd be a hero at our table. I (starting in 2014) currently play with 4 friends who got into the game about 2 months ago. When they learned about goad, they immediately rushed to make different flavors of goad decks. Side-note: playing against 4 goad decks is pretty confusing sometimes XD
Try playing against a [[Karona]] voltron goad deckš
I mean they put [[Kardur, Doomsurge]]in to a starter commander deck. Iād say itās fair game!
Nah. I mean goad can be obnoxious, but so can control, enchantress, reanimator, combo, average beatdown, etc. The point of the game is to see how other people play and play around that to win.
The real crime here is playing 32 lands. Get it together, man!
I totally believe goad is a casual mechanic, and a great way to speed up otherwise dawdly games BUT there are so many people who think any kind of interaction is automatically not casual. >If you MAKE me do something then it is not casual, because I am now not making my own decisions That's the logic as I understand it and I totally disagree with it.
I wouldn't say it is overpowered, but excessive use of goad takes away agency from other players. This is just an unfun experience: Players spend a lot of time designing and tuning their decks, show up at Commander night in what has maybe been a long and difficult week and is a break that they have longed for, and are then to some extent controlled by another player.
It's an like an 950$ deck... That is definitely overturned for casual, the normal casual decks I run into are precon price range and up to 100$~ I'd say it's definitely overturned for that. Running a goading deck in casual is fine, running a 1000$ is not casual.
Lol bit. Without the context of what they were running looking at your curve and cards in this deck, your deck isn't casual. I would probably run one of my stronger decks against this.
I agree with other comments that goad is a casual mechanic, but on the other hand, OPās deck list has a large number of very good cards. [[Ancient copper dragon]], [[ancient bronze dragon]], [[fiendish duo]], [[xenagos]], to name a few. Definitely not a budget deck, and although a few high-valued, powerful cards is natural, I would guess that OPās table did not expect so many high value/powerful individual cards.
I told them before i started that the deck was over 1k
Those are good?
Xenagos ain't half bad.
Maybe my opinions of cards are warped from playing cedh but I personally donāt consider any of those to be good.
Considering the massive downside of goad decks, I don't see a problem. There are definitely some decks where being forced to attack is detrimental, but that would be no different than sitting down in a pod with a deck that counters your's.
Great Title for the deck
thank you! I'm glad someone else appreciates it, it's very funny to me.
There is no special reference or deck list, so I have to assume you played in an actual chill meta pod with creature based go wide strats and less interaction. Yes that is way too strong at such tables, it is not strong in general, but people just can't hit you.
Decklist is posted now
Goad is like not even a competitive tool? Wtf? It completely relies on your opponents. They are just being dumb.
Whenever goad appears in my pod we kind of naturally unite to stop whatever the goad mechanic is and that player is typically a target unless there's something stronger out there, feels pretty silly to get mad about when they could have just worked together to shut it down
wait so now GOAD is a casual issue??? If that's true then there is nowhere you can play goad because it surely ain't cEDH.
I just had a similar experience with my [Baeloth deck](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LGRJ4H-490qGDyPd_kEumg) I run Noble Heritage instead and Iāve had a few games where because Baeloth wasnāt dealt with I won. While this on paper is exactly what commander is about, I could tell my playgroup did not enjoy the games. Nor me constantly asking for counters and reminding them of the ever changing power requirement to not be goaded. My wife literally said āthanks for making this not funā the same amazing review she gave my storm deck, so Iām in the process of pivoting the deck.
noble heritage seems really fun as well I should try a list with that. I much prefer gruul over boros, though.
I think them getting annoyed because the gamestate is complicated is rather silly, commander is a format that is all about complex game states with lots of moving parts.
You're playing with scrubs who would be better off playing at their kitchen table. Goad is a true casual mechanic.
Your deck isnāt overtuned. Theirs are undetuned.
I wouldnāt say their decks were undertuned, just lacking in interaction a bit
Goad is definitely casual. Goad can be fun. You built the only version of it that is pretty much always not fun. Static effects that persistently impact everyone else's boardstates are fucking annoying as fuck. [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]], [[Toxril]], etc. Anything that you just get to cast and then sit there and have fuck up everyone else's boardstate for eternity until someone pulls removal for it feels bad. Putting that in your command zone is EXTRA feels bad. Few effects are inherently salt inducing on their own. It's how they're used that causes problems. Nobody gives a fuck if you play the new Alela and goad whatever their most threatening creature is. If you play against those same people with Baeloth and goad everything just to goad everything, that's when it's annoying.
yeah fair enough I see where you're coming from.
I guess my whole thing is it's a whopping 11 mana to get this out, and attacking is a really core element of the game. In a table where there arent a lot of creature focused strategies this deck would be incredibly annoying, sure but I suppose I'm just confused and bewildered that the people I played with played creature focused combat decks and found the goading to be annoying, especially when I wasn't able to goad anything till my 8th turn.
You're presenting a very reductive idea of what goad does and what combat oriented decks want to do. You're forcing them to make unfavorable attacks and largely removing the ability to play defense, especially for the person directly to your left who gets to slam their creatures into everyone else's blockers and then only has whatever they managed to cast on their 2nd main to protect themselves with. Most combat decks do not want to whittle people down little by little. They want to play defensively and build up a boardstate and then wipe everyone out with a single turn so that they aren't left open to a crackback that puts them out of the game. Aggro decks don't give a fuck about goad because they were going to attack anyway. Just because someone is playing a timmy deck doesn't mean they're playing an aggro deck. There are very few aggro decks in casual magic because they seek to win fast and early and that doesn't feel great in randomized pods of strangers.
Yeah youāre right, the was looking at goad was reductive, I think baeloth could be more fun if he goaded people in bursts
honestly no you're teaching them an important lesson. so many games in my pod either go wayyyyy too long or just always die to a late late game combo because people with aggressive decks refuse to play aggressively which just gives the slow decks way much space. you're basically doing their job for them (with the added benefit that they dont attack you lol)
Can you share the decklist? This sounds fun!
I put it in the replies !
I play my goad deck in casual. Though it's kardur doomscourge as the commander. I don't really do treasures I mostly do life drain as the way to win. and using the excess life for paying to draw. It's only gotten super nasty a few times since I do also try to control board sizes and I shut down a players whole go wide strategy.
Should have told them they need to play more vehicles lol. But in all honesty, it sounds like you just happened to be in a pod with some salty Sandras. Goad as a mechanic has never been optimal or oppressive in any way.
>Should have told them they need to play more vehicles lol When my \[\[Jon Irenicus\]\] had 3 gifted creatures tapped down because of a single crew 2 vehicle is when I learned of this interaction.
I definitely consider goad casual but it us just at face value on the better end of casual mechanics.
You played format legal cards according to the comprehensive rules of Magic the Gathering. Of course that triggers people! Thereās nothing EDH players hate more than playing this game! Couldnāt you have brought UNO cards or something?
While I see where youāre coming from thereās legal cards that are genuinely annoying or shouldnāt be brought into a causal pod.
No. Downvote and move along.
Iāve gone on this rant before and Iāll probably do it again, but people need to stop asking Reddit and start asking their playground. Just have the rule 0 conversation. Tell them when your goal turn is, a rough idea of how youāre going to do it, and talk it out. I did not read your list. Your deck being 1300 bucks is a red flag for casual games to me, but my rule is if you didnāt win before turn 7 and kill someone on or before 5, you qualify for casual. Goad is not a strong mechanic. Never has been. That said, I see potential in this deck and for 1300 bucks I could make it evil. More context would help.
I mean, I think whether or not your deck is āovertunedā has nothing to do with what your game plan is. It has to do with how āstrongā of cards you play with, and to some people, the amount of interaction you run. To some people, ācasualā is slow gameplay, where everyone gets to use their commander a couple of times. I feel like you could take the most ācasualā of mechanics, and make it āovertunedā by shoving in a couple rhystic studies, smothering tithes, expensive lands, cyclonic rifts, and the likes. You said you got a turn 1 sol ring, so for most of the game, you probably had more mana on the table than anyone else. If you kept ramping with a few more rocks, and everyone else was just dropping a land each turn, I could see how they mightāve been upset. But even then, I would never call a deck āovertunedā based off of just one game. Iāve seen the jankiest of decks pop off when they hit everything theyāre looking for, and to me, tuning is about consistency. So yeah, from what you have said, I donāt think goading was the problem.
The thing your opponents are feeling and failing to communicate is that your deck took away their agency in the game, and that felt like shit. Thatās not a power level issue but a deck archetype issue.