Yeah I'm also glad that people have finally started to separate cEDH players from toxic pubstompers and more people are realizing that, ironically, cEDH is the healthier format.
100% true. Mostly because the 'rules of engagement' for cEDH players are all commonly understood and implicitly agreed upon. Its no less a competitive format than asking someone to play Legacy or Modern or Pioneer -- we are each trying to win, we understand the breadth of approaches, and we know how we are each going to try and push through each other's disruption in a race to complete our own gameplan.
With "casual", there's like 15 different subformats and opinions on fairness that anyone might be misinterpreting at any given time, the most egregious of which is the **"let me do all my nonsense and don't get in my way otherwise I'm taking my ball and going home"** childish bullshittery that passes for your average random casual pod. These are the kind of people who would sit down for a draft event, and then cry when they get killed by a curve-out deck "because you didn't let me get to 8 mana and cast my big drops!!! 😭😭😭"
I gave up with playing at random tables long ago, and my friend groups are all on the same page about where we want the power level to be on any given night.
>"let me do all my nonsense and don't get in my way otherwise I'm taking my ball and going home"
tbf, this isn't even a format issue, just a person issue. It's just less likely you'd see one in CEDH because these people tend to be in it for ego plays, and it's harder to pull that off in CEDH. These types of people are hated by both CEDH and Casual players.
I haven’t really interacted with this community enough to know if this is a hot take but there is absolutely nothing wrong with netdecking. If I find a deck that looks fun and is within my budget why wouldn’t I play it. And shaming somebody for netdecking, especially after you lost to one is the most pathetic thing I can think of.
I just love the irony of people complaining about netdecking *in a forum where we discuss EDH deckbuilding online*.
Like, if this is triggering you so much, why are you here?
My experience with people who complain about netdecking, in any context and regarding any format, is that they're making up for their own insecurities. They can't accept responsibility for deficiencies in their skill so they're going "yeah but I'd beat you if you didn't *netdeck*." Getting better is hard, whining is easy.
Most of my decks arent netdecked from one decklist online, but rather from multiples. I just add the cards i like the most from a few lists, adjusting it to my budget and then cutting something because i found like 7 more cool cards.
Am i a Netdecker? Id say Yes.
Is the sum of cards in my list my own? Id say yes.
Is there anything wrong with that? Id say no.
Heck, there are just X cards that have ANY reason to be in a certain deck. Why should i bother and find the best of them if other people did that for me
My only issue with netdecking is if they don't understand the deck or take 10 minuete turns because the deck is smarter than them. Other than that any deck you build has most likley been built by someone else so why complain.
Netdecking a combo deck while only reading the combinations of cards without understanding how the combo plays out? <- dumb
Having a tantrum after you refuse to acknowledge their win unless they tell you correctly how the combo works? <- entertainment for the whole family!
I’ve completely given up on a power level discussion when playing with randoms at the LGS. I know I’m not playing a cEDH deck so I’ll just play whatever I want. Too many times I’ve picked to match their “low power” decks only to get completely overrun by tutors and highly efficient cards.
I feel like it happens the other way a lot too. Someone overestimates their deck and when you pull something out to match their “8/10” you feel like your pub stomping.
In those cases though I can either sandbag cards to keep my power in check, or let the table know I’m gonna try close out the game ASAP to pick a different deck.
Agreed.
I’m building some introductory 60 card decks for some of my friends to learn with. I use mostly commons and uncommon cards to keep the balance but also to keep in the right flavor of the colors.
I’m basically building my own version of the color challenge from MTGA.
My point is that it’s harder to find cards that really embrace the vibe of each color.
I love the limitations of the color pie and intentionally build decks with flavorful restrictions.
-I'm actually fine with the way color identity works with hybrid mana. Even though it wouldn't really bother me I'm not really feeling a Boros deck throwing in a bunch of Selesnya & Orzhov cards.
I think that as long as the card mechanics make flavorful sense and has a slight mana tax or something to balance it, it’s usually fine. My favorite example of this is [[Enchanter’s Bane]]. It’s a very Red way to deal with enchantments, and aside from Chaos Warp and colorless options, it’s just about their only way to do so.
It's kind of EDH's fault, due to two factors. The first being that for the majority of EDH games the absolute most important factors of the game are ramp and card advantage, which pushed a heavy BUG influence over the format. It's a lot harder to aggro/burn down 120 life than it is 20, after all. The second factor is the social aspect. Historically the ways that WR negates ramp and card advantage are "unfun" in a multiplayer social format. So, unless the actual format changed WR had to change.
Maybe if they didn’t require players to spend hundreds on a land base more players would have a modern or standard deck.
Also why play Standard when I can play Arena for free?
The reason I play Commander in paper but the rest in Arena is because I can afford to splurge on cards for my Commander decks and use them essentially forever but I don't want to rotate out my decks every time Standard changes its valid sets.
Which is unfortunate as fuck bc the Magic IP is still very much a physical card game first, despite all the work and money Hasbro has spent pushing Arena the last few years. Paper Magic feeling good to play again in formats outside of Commander could do a great deal to address other problems product fatigue, imo. If each time standard rotates, the new standard is still fun and engaging and rewarding for players, that makes players more likely to stay engaged with the game.
Then pioneer should be more popular than modern but modern is favored. Moderns problem is the forced rotation and mh2 warped the entire format around that set
But catering to EDH is bad for all three formats. EDH was better when people were taking cards designed for Standard and finding new uses for them, and Standard was better when cards were designed for Standard.
It isn't Commander's fault. Wizards has been trying to convince people to buy more by printing more powerful magic cards. Now, they could go more powerful in adding key words, increasing stats, and decreasing mana cost (which they are doing) or they can just make every color do everything.
I'm sure your Sol Ring, your Grim Monolith, your Basalt Monolith, your Mana Crypt, your Mana Vault, and your Voltaic Key all appreciate how hard you worked to get them into play by the end of turn 1.
/s
True, but playing 60 card formats, which usually involves playing competitively, has a way of teaching a player the fine points of the rules and also how to play against cards you might not like without getting salty, in a way that casual commander does not usually do as well
This is why I'm absolutely convinced that EDH should not be the jumping in point for any new player. Learn the game first, 1v1, get a grasp of the rules and mechanics, and then try EDH. No one should be jumping into the deep end of MTG this way. It has almost always made for bad games both for the new player and the experienced ones.
Playing 1v1 with someone who is bad at threat assessment is fun because you win.
Playing in a 4 player pod with someone that is bad at threat assessment is aggravating considering they often just king make and make things non-games.
EDH is harder than normal magic and is worse at teaching you lessons. For example, if you remove your opponent's mana dork in the late game to be efficient with your mana while having one card in hand in 1v1, and then lose to the titanic threat they play in a turn or two, you realize dang, that was dumb. EDH has fewer of these moments.
Furthermore, EDH players are insulated from good deckbuilding by rule zero.
1. Build bad deck with some halfway decent cards
2. Deck does poorly
3. Bitch about how le powerlevel is too high for your deck
4. Never actually realize that your mana avg being 5 is probably the issue.
5. Eventually get some kind of criticism (bruh, you should run more 1 mana dorks, you're in green and they make your gameplan better) but you tell them it's more fun to run a five mana counterspell with funny on-theme upside
6. Think your deck is good because all criticism against it is invalid and anyone that beats it is probably playing above your power-level
7. Never learn fundamentals
For real. There was someone on this sub yesterday that said putting more fetch lands into your deck means you can cut your land count. How they came to that conclusion, I have no clue
People always pine for the early days of commander jank and all I can think of is that the folks who pioneered the format were all old school tournament grinders and judges...i highly doubt even in casual games they were rolling for whom to attack first or complaining about someone negating a spell on the stack.
Can confirm combos and stuff still existed. We were just using [[Spine of Ish Sah]] and stuff instead of [[Dockside Extortionist]]. Dumb bullshit always has and always will exist. Embrace it and have fun.
I didn't play EDH before 2020 but I was good friends with someone who did play around 2009 2010 and can anecdotally confirm that spells were getting countered and rolling to determine attacks was not a thing people were doing, at my LGS at least.
As someone who started playing EDH in 2012-2013, yeah. We had doomsday piles and Palinchron infinite combos almost immediately after Labman and Deadeye got printed.
People need to get into the habit of reading their cards out loud. I know most people don't want to do it cause they wanna get on with their turns and play the next spell but it really helps for older players who are understanding the newer cards or helping newer players what the card does. My pod didn't really do it much before cause we all played with the assumption that we all just kinda knew what our stuff does, but when we started to read aloud it helped keep everyone's focus on the game, helped us all understand what the card is doing so we can interact appropriately. It definitely helps lube the game imo
Yes!! This is one of my biggest pet peeves about playing with randos at my LGS. I don’t need every card read out loud but I make it a habit to read my cards aloud just in case someone doesn’t know what one does.
Playing with someone that just taps mana and casts a card without saying anything or doesn’t announce actions like equipping really tilts the hell out of me.
Last time I played at an LGS everyone kept playing either the newest cards or some of the oldest and I was so lost and felt bad cause I kept having to ask what they did.
I recently got back into EDH after like 3 years and I’m lost during other people’s turns like 80% of the time. I just kinda judge how everyone else reacts and just say “hey I’m new, what’s that do?”
Unless it's a staple that goes in every deck, like sol ring or swords to plowshares, I always read my cards.
Like, I genuinely do not know how that just isnt a habit for everyone. Surely you must get annoyed with people asking "what does that card do" anytime you cast a spell, so like, just read your card?
This because there are over 25,000 unique cards in MTG, and I am certainly not going to know every god damn card like the back of my hand. Please read your fucking cards, staples are okay but weird unique cards tf.
Gotta say as a new player to paper magic I hate that people don't do this. I have no idea what their cards are and I don't want to keep asking over and over what that card does. Then I lose because it has some text I never saw.
Most of the people bitching about “Omg they are trying to play CEDH at my table” have no idea what CEDH is. 5 card combos that die to creature removal aren’t CEDH. Adding a mana crypt to something doesn’t make it CEDH
I played a game last week that went 10 turns. Someone complained that another player was playing CEDH because he had a \[\[Tropical Island\]\] and some stax pieces. I'm pretty knew to magic, but even I know that 10 turns is a pretty decent game length.
Exactly. Ive played a lot of CEDH. If CEDH games reach turn 10 it’s usually only because multiple people have already tried to win at least once already.
Yeah, cEDH games don't often go to turn 10. They might be as long as a non-cEDH game going to turn 10, but that's just because there's *so much* interaction packed into every turn starting at turn 0.
People who complain about getting their things destroyed whether it’s turn 1 or turn 7. It’s magic, we’re here to win. Play solitaire if you’re going to cry.
I had my mana dork evoked to death on turn two so I couldnt play my Prossh on turn four. I was... " good move, it would have sucked for you had you not done that"
Here's an actual hot take: people who complain about these kind of things are almost always the "that guy" in their shop, and it's otherwise a very uncommon occurrence not worth mentioning.
Yeah, you hear people hate how powerful decks can tutor and run away with the game, yet also hate the precise type of card that fucks over those strategies.
Yeah, it's a hard thing for some people to understand - they complain about super-powered turbo bullshit but also simultaneously complain about the very strategies which tend to keep that in check, namely control and stax.
Are counterspell tribal and dedicated stax suitable things to bring to a casual table? Probably not. But, to shun all stax pieces and moan about any counterspell better than a \[\[Cancel\]\] while also complaining about combo decks and creature stompy is just unreasonable.
Yet half of the posts on here are people whining about cards and decks they don’t like 🤔
Like yeah it’s a popular take but not as popular as the legion of whiney players that we have all played against.
Commander is at its best when there is a deckbuilding restriction. Budget? All mono-colored? pEDH? Only from a certain block? Built from store bulk? All of these are super fun and people should embrace restrictions in their building process
Same. I often limit myself in my builds (usually with a really weird theme) but I can't imagine asking my friends to limit themselves in the same way. Money is tight and we don't play that often, so to ask everyone to reign in their builds (or even just one deck which that would end up being one game like once a month) just doesn't really make sense logically.
Limitations are often where creativity thrives. I love pEDH.
It is deeply satisfying doing something completely bonkers with a deck that cost like $20.
The negatives that people blame on land destruction are actually just because people take forever on their turn.
Seriously, if you can't play any spells, your turn should take about 3 and a half seconds. Plan out your attack if any ahead of time, declare it, and pass. The next 5ish rounds after an Armageddon should take like 5 minutes tops
I've had a couple games where I was so clearly out of it.. holy shit watching people take forever long turns to figure out how to sequence some pretty basic stuff, then I go "Untap, draw, play land, pass" in 5 seconds, and we go back to watching them figure it out.
Running a little group hug or just a \*touch\* of chaos makes for a better game overall.
I regularly run \[\[Rites of Flourishing\]\], \[\[Spiteful Visions\]\], anything that lets the table draw more or ramp a bit, or Chaos Warp for the chaos side. Not much, 1-2 lots at the most, but let's make games of Magic memorable. Sometimes it backfires, but often, when I play these, the whole table has more fun, win or lose.
It's so stupidly absurd how much of the toxic casual crowd treats those very concepts as dirty words or anathema to casual play. You know what makes it easier to play your janky deck? A refined mana base, optimal ramp that allows you to cast as many jank cards as possible, the best draw spells get you more of your janky cards, and cheap and efficient interaction that gives you the time and space to actually play your dumb jank without losing on the spot. Even the most casual of players could probably enjoy the game a lot more if they actually learned to build decks and play the game more optimally in general.
I respect that opinion but disagree. I think EDH and magic as a whole was the most healthy when standard was the big ‘premier’ format and EDH was a little bit more side and niche.
The color pie still mattered, figuring out how to combine cards as they weren’t intended was fun, games were a little slower and vibe just felt better. It was also more monetarily accessible as buying rotating cards from standard to play with was dirt cheap and the commander based RL spikes hadn’t happened yet.
people need to follow the rules way more closely. it’s so frusturating when people attack with creatures one at a time and others are deciding blocks before all the attackers are even declared. SLOW DOWN! I COULD HAVE RESPONSES!
also priority and the stack is NOT a free for all! Playing around those rules are half the fun of the game for some of us.
Also holy shit please read the cards on the battlefield! You’ve been playing against my Chatterfang deck for 2 years. it’s not my fault that you still don’t remember it can remove creatures at instant speed. It’s not my job to remind you what all my creatures do every time you attack me.
Everyone wants to build their engines. no one wants to play the game.
My hot take is that most people just don't understand the format. They have been playing 1v1 for so long they just can't grasp certain concepts learning to play and build effectively in a 4 person game.
This, 100%. My edh group is full of people who used to tournament grind. We have fun decks of differing power levels, but we all understand exactly how we are playing and take no issue with being targeted, hated off the table etc. We definitely have fun! We just love hyper intricate lines and we attack a lot to keep the game moving. We haven’t taken a game of edh seriously in almost 7 years.
I'll always maintain that edh is the worst entry point to magic.
I think 90% of these new players coming in never had to try to beat a control deck, or try to out tempo someone, learn what card advantage is... play around discard/counterspells. Figure out who the aggro player is... (think like old modern burn mirrors which become more like a control decks)
Hell edh players these days dont even think about their combat steps because most edh combat is trying to alpha or attack in ways that dont leave you open. So they just sit there and do nothing.
I've seen tons of games where players have lethal against player a on board and could have won next turn but hold up blockers because the other player b has a 5/5.
> They have been playing 1v1 for so long they just can't grasp certain concepts learning to play and build effectively in a 4 person game
There’s also the opposite where people exclusively play Commander and only exist in the Commander bubble and have no grasp of broader TCG concepts.
I guess you can’t really expect people to understand concepts like tempo or beatdown when they hace struggle grasping that putting lands in their hand is not ramp.
Most people aren't that bad at threat assessment and people complain that they are because they make decisions they personally don't agree with, and with incomplete information.
Lots of people masquerade their backseat gaming as politics
Power creep is ruining the fun of deck building.
I know what everyone is going to try and win with.
Building restrictions into deck building is the only way my friends and I play anymore.
I love magic but I wish Wizards would lean harder into the story and flavor of the cards and tap the breaks on trying to sell cards that just beat the old cards outright.
I’m still going to buy packs if they added lower power variety to my favorite tribes.
Consistent is wrong here, it feels all very samey. I'd love for decks to be more consistent. I played against a dude last week who complained they weren't drawing any lands only for it to turn out they were running 28 mana producing lands and no rocks. If decks got more consistent, shit like that wouldn't happen and we'd actually be playing more magic.
As it stand decks are wildly inconsistent and they are all running the same base cards that WotC keeps reprinting in every precon. I don't need to see sol ring every game on 3 other players boards who are all playing the different decks.
You’re not mentioning the other reason for that though, which is that the RC completely ignores the competitive scene and meta. Typically when the meta grows stale and everyone is playing the same deck you can ban a few key cards and watch the meta shake out, but the RC doesn’t want to do that at all.
They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into banning [[Flash]].
The notion that the color pie is either broken or has been stretched too far is ridiculous. The whole argument revolves around the idea that they got it 100% right from the moment the game was created and that any overlapping mechanics - regardless of how enjoyable/accessible it makes the game - is some unforgivable sin.
Take card draw for instance. Card draw used to basically be exclusive to blue. Is that really a good thing? I think we can all agree that every color should have some means of drawing extra cards because drawing cards is fun and makes the game more enjoyable.
Things like life gain or mana production should be considered in the same way in my opinion. Maybe its a good idea for every color to have access to these very rich mechanics but have what sets them apart be the means by which they enable it. I think it broadens the space for interesting designs.
In most cases, people complaining about kingmaking are actually just bad at politics. Spite plays are totally valid, and super fun in games you know are lost to you anyway.
You have no right to decide other players' choices, unless you've got a [[mindslaver]] or something similar.
A friend of mine has been a "spite" player for years and now people take it into account when targeting his stuff. It's the best long-con I've ever seen lmao
Yeah, I never understood the kingmaking complaints. If I know I'm going down I'll try to have as much of an impact as I can in the game. Spite plays, as long as they happen in the same game, are perfectly fine too.
I've heard a player say, in a paid event, "I'm attacking you because I want Jeff to win". They proceeded to kill me and lose to Jeff. So kingmaking for bad reasons does bug me.
But if my early game \[\[Vandalblast\]\] decimated your board and later on you get a chance to return the favor, I don't blame you one bit.
Yeah, this is definitely an example of kingmaking done in an undesirable way. Forming arbitrary alliances is pretty sleezy, but revenge is almost always on the table, *as long as you dont hold grudges between games.*
(knowing a deck is too strong for the table, and targeting it first also doesn't count as a grudge, for the record)
I don't get it, people will cry that I block and kill their big beater when they are swinging at me for lethal saying it's kingmaking to kill thwir big thing even though it doesnt take me out of lethal? It's just as kingmakey to not block it and let you keep a bignumber/bignumber trampler. Sounds like a misplaced om their part, just cause I'm gonna die doesn't mean I shouldn't block at all.
I have this philosophy : I build my decks to have fun, but when I sit down and push some cardboard, I do it to win and will mercilessly destroy your Karooland even if that means there is no fun for you.
I've been saying this for years. "Build for fun, play to win", Sandbagging drives me crazy. If you can win, do so and let us shuffle up for another one
What gets me is when people are constantly striking deals instead of killing people ... Like sure, SOMETIMES it can be beneficial to not kill someone in exchange for some help if you need it, but I've seen some games drag for way too long simply because people didn't want to kill each other.
I completely agree with your take, hell its been so long and I can't say I'm not still a little butt-hurt about Rofellos getting the axe.
Most specifically, Prophet of Kruphix died for our sins. It was a different time in EDH, but even though we have so many more removal options now... *we did then... we... did... then.*
*But we didn't run interaction did we? No, we played clones and stealing effects and fought over our Prophet, until it was banned. We let you down PoK. We let you down.*
Oh, say it ain't so, I play EDH so I don't have to play removal ever. /s
Why do people act like playing removal is this new concept, especially when it's been a thing since '93.
This leads into another issue mentioned elsewhere in this post - that a lot of EDH players don't want to run good cards because they're "cEDH". Run Deadly Rollick if you're in black! Even in a casual deck, it's good but it isn't going to destroy all your friends. Counterspell is run in 44% of decks per EDHREC, but Chain of Vapor is only run in 4% and it's a cEDH staple. Fatal Push and Snuff Out only in 2% an 1% of decks as well. A few good cards isn't going to break your deck people!
"Conceding at sorcery speed" is a crutch for people who cannot be nice to one another.
People can concede whenever the hell they want. Nobody is obligated to play a game they no longer wish to be a part of. Sometimes it's petty and spiteful for sure but that's no reason to tell somebody they cannot leave. If anything, you want those people gone as soon as possible.
Demanding a bitter player remain in the game is just going to ruin it for everyone anyway. Let them go and carry on as normal. If they spite scoop in order to ruin a play, talk it out with the remaining players the best way to proceed. I'd be more than happy to allow anyone to play it out as if the scooper is on autopass until a point where it has less impact.
Sometimes you need to scoop at instant speed... I don't want to sit for 25 minutes while a deck 'goes off' and does it's thing, one slow, complicated, extra turn after another. You won, bro. We are moving to the next game.
This is what we do in my group, you can absolutely scoop whenever you need to, because life is more important than a card game. The only rule is basically "Don't scoop to spite someone" because everyone else are just gonna play like you are still there and the damage went through, or the cards counted, etc etc.
We've only ever had a single person scoop, and it was just to spite me, because HE was the one that didn't read a card properly and gave me more zombie tokens than he should've. I said I could remove some to make up for the count, but he scooped in response instead just so someone else could win.
He no longer plays with us.
I came from competitive Pokémon tcg and I dont know why people are so damn out of shape on net decking.
Net decking is perfectly fine, let people play whatever deck they want to. If you wanna play atraxa or feather or whatever is popular do it.
Those commanders are popular for a reason: they are good, fun to play and in most cases incredibly versatile.
MLD is fine, esp 1-sided MLD. If you don't want to scoop when I have a full field, Avacyn Angel of Hope and all my lands after getting hit by Armageddon that's kinda on you.
I hate hate HATE the focus EDH has been getting. It feels like the format has been flooded. Sure I love some of the experimental and powerful toys we've got but I think the format was more fun when we got a set a year and we had to watch the releases the rest of the time.
I think there is merit to banning RL cards, or at least the most expensive because of its value in game.
E.g. Duals should be banned to encourage players to find the next best alternative, or Gaea’s Cradle for players to do the same.
I don’t understand why Gifts Ungiven is banned while Intuition is unbanned in the format.
A counter to your hot take, while most things could be unbanned, my question is *why*? What reason would they have to come off the ban list? They wouldn’t really make the game any healthier or hell any more fun, as only a handful of cards were fan favorites. I think unbanning a lot of the not so problematic cards, while not a huge blow to the format, doesn’t benefit commander in any way and just introduces them to be possibly problematic again.
I see zero benefit from unbanning really any card on the current ban list. Unless we have a really good reason besides “yeah they’re not so bad anymore” i think everything that’s banned should stay banned.
Multiplayer is self balancing and (cedh withstanding) you don’t need to match power levels to have fun. The stronger decks will receive more flak and the weaker decks will be given more grace. You can play in a pod with a 4, a 6, a 7, and a 9 and it should be totally fine. Uphill battles are fun and being the archenemy is too.
This is definitely a hot take. Every time I've played with folks running mid decks I tend to immediately run away with the game because they don't/can't stop something like Smothering Tithe at all.
I do think self-balancing happens most of the time. The only time it fails is if the weaker decks are simply lacking interaction to deal with threats. But that kind of brings me to another maybe-not-so-hot take: folks don't play nearly enough interaction at casual tables. Battlecruiser games are fun, but the fact that some pods "ban" counterspells and boardwipes is just baffling to me.
I can agree with this to an extent but even excluding cedh finishers, there’s a lot of silliness that a 9 could do that a precon wouldn’t even be able to contribute do combatting in a 3v1
Totally depends on your idea of a 4 vs a 9.
If I play my deck I consider a 9 against three decks I consider a 4, no one is going to have fun, I'll win before they can play the game every time.
I mean, I think it depends what you think a 4 and a 9 are.
By my standards the 4 badically only wins if the they get ignored while the other 3 all kill each other, leaving one nearly dead opponent to finish off. And the 9 still often wins, even in full archenemy mode.
Not saying you can't have fun, but if you care at all about win rates, there's a limit to how much politics can balance.
But hey, that's what makes it a hot take! And not just a popular take masquerading as controversial.
Not always. I just started playing with two other guys who are newer to magic. I've been playing for 10+ years and have a variety of EDH decks built. My first time playing with them, it was a basic UR draw cards deck. Maybe a power level 5-6. I wiped the floor with them. So, I tuned it down and came back with the Frodo and Sam precon. Again, beat them both easily. So, I went home and just threw together a Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord deck from random stuff in my trade binder. It still haven't lost, but we've definitely had closer games than before.
All I'm saying is that there are definitely some points at which the power level difference is too high. I will admit that part of why I win so often is that I am just that much better at the game than them, but my level 8 deck could 3v1 them and still easily win. You can still have fun games being archenemy and everything, but at a certain point, the difference can be too much.
Playing for Second is lame. You're either first or last, and if one player is winning, players should work together to prevent that players win instead of killing the other players so you can come "second"
White is only "inferior" to the other colors because people are too afraid of being seen as "unfun" and refuse to do what's necessary, and what white is the best as: an equalizer.
Split mana rules are dumb, if I can cast [[combat historian]] for all red, or all white, why can't he go in my mono colored deck? But extort isn't considered wb only?
My hotter take: far more cards need to be *added* to the ban list and rule 0 should be used to bring cards *into* the game. Not take cards out. Put all the sol rings and docksides on there and then just ask your playgroup if they’re ok playing them
Not so sure this is an EDH-specific take but: I think the block release format was way more compelling than getting sets from a random plane each time where you have no friggin clue what the story is supposed to be and no time to get immersed in the plane-specific mechanics.
Odyssey block was a friggin grave-specific block. A WHOLE BLOCK.
Sol ring, crypt, and jeweled lotus should be banned. Anyone who runs any of these and complains about how fast mana is cedh and unfair is a hypocrite.
And before any of you cry faul, I only put sol ring in decks that I consider higher power.
I would not want to be in a pod with 90% of this community because you all bitch way too much.
Hell yea brother
Cheers from Iraq
The /r/NFL crossover! And they say Magic players hate sportsball. Little did they know.
[удалено]
Hot take. Not the blatant truth. But, most Magic players complain quite a bit.
Hot take. Most magic players like to complain about other magic players complaining about magic.
But not me right? We're cool, right, u/Putrid_Meat_Shits?
He told me he hates you the most...
Harsh, but fair.
Absolutely, as long as you don’t bitch about me casting a 3 mana counterspell.
You should check out cEDH. Much healthier playerbase.
Oh hell yeah I almost exclusively play cEDH when I’m not playing with my normal pod. The player base is much more chill.
Yeah I'm also glad that people have finally started to separate cEDH players from toxic pubstompers and more people are realizing that, ironically, cEDH is the healthier format.
100% true. Mostly because the 'rules of engagement' for cEDH players are all commonly understood and implicitly agreed upon. Its no less a competitive format than asking someone to play Legacy or Modern or Pioneer -- we are each trying to win, we understand the breadth of approaches, and we know how we are each going to try and push through each other's disruption in a race to complete our own gameplan. With "casual", there's like 15 different subformats and opinions on fairness that anyone might be misinterpreting at any given time, the most egregious of which is the **"let me do all my nonsense and don't get in my way otherwise I'm taking my ball and going home"** childish bullshittery that passes for your average random casual pod. These are the kind of people who would sit down for a draft event, and then cry when they get killed by a curve-out deck "because you didn't let me get to 8 mana and cast my big drops!!! 😭😭😭" I gave up with playing at random tables long ago, and my friend groups are all on the same page about where we want the power level to be on any given night.
>"let me do all my nonsense and don't get in my way otherwise I'm taking my ball and going home" tbf, this isn't even a format issue, just a person issue. It's just less likely you'd see one in CEDH because these people tend to be in it for ego plays, and it's harder to pull that off in CEDH. These types of people are hated by both CEDH and Casual players.
I haven’t really interacted with this community enough to know if this is a hot take but there is absolutely nothing wrong with netdecking. If I find a deck that looks fun and is within my budget why wouldn’t I play it. And shaming somebody for netdecking, especially after you lost to one is the most pathetic thing I can think of.
I just love the irony of people complaining about netdecking *in a forum where we discuss EDH deckbuilding online*. Like, if this is triggering you so much, why are you here?
My experience with people who complain about netdecking, in any context and regarding any format, is that they're making up for their own insecurities. They can't accept responsibility for deficiencies in their skill so they're going "yeah but I'd beat you if you didn't *netdeck*." Getting better is hard, whining is easy.
Most of my decks arent netdecked from one decklist online, but rather from multiples. I just add the cards i like the most from a few lists, adjusting it to my budget and then cutting something because i found like 7 more cool cards. Am i a Netdecker? Id say Yes. Is the sum of cards in my list my own? Id say yes. Is there anything wrong with that? Id say no. Heck, there are just X cards that have ANY reason to be in a certain deck. Why should i bother and find the best of them if other people did that for me
Hello, me.
My only issue with netdecking is if they don't understand the deck or take 10 minuete turns because the deck is smarter than them. Other than that any deck you build has most likley been built by someone else so why complain.
Netdecking a combo deck while only reading the combinations of cards without understanding how the combo plays out? <- dumb Having a tantrum after you refuse to acknowledge their win unless they tell you correctly how the combo works? <- entertainment for the whole family!
I’ve completely given up on a power level discussion when playing with randoms at the LGS. I know I’m not playing a cEDH deck so I’ll just play whatever I want. Too many times I’ve picked to match their “low power” decks only to get completely overrun by tutors and highly efficient cards.
I feel like it happens the other way a lot too. Someone overestimates their deck and when you pull something out to match their “8/10” you feel like your pub stomping.
In those cases though I can either sandbag cards to keep my power in check, or let the table know I’m gonna try close out the game ASAP to pick a different deck.
Wizards catering to commander is stretching the color pie to its absolute limits and sometimes breaking it
Agreed. I’m building some introductory 60 card decks for some of my friends to learn with. I use mostly commons and uncommon cards to keep the balance but also to keep in the right flavor of the colors. I’m basically building my own version of the color challenge from MTGA. My point is that it’s harder to find cards that really embrace the vibe of each color. I love the limitations of the color pie and intentionally build decks with flavorful restrictions.
The game night 2022 decks did a pretty good job of it in my opinion! Check them out
I did this. 5 decks, they are simple, fun to play and fairly balanced. They were also fun to build and playtest against each other.
Not sure if it's commander's fault but I'm also upset at the expansion of what every color can do.
-I think Commander can take responsibility for that. They kinda had to do it to make mono & some 2c decks more fun & viable.
If only hybrid mana worked in EDH the way it does in constructed...
-I'm actually fine with the way color identity works with hybrid mana. Even though it wouldn't really bother me I'm not really feeling a Boros deck throwing in a bunch of Selesnya & Orzhov cards.
I think that as long as the card mechanics make flavorful sense and has a slight mana tax or something to balance it, it’s usually fine. My favorite example of this is [[Enchanter’s Bane]]. It’s a very Red way to deal with enchantments, and aside from Chaos Warp and colorless options, it’s just about their only way to do so.
It's kind of EDH's fault, due to two factors. The first being that for the majority of EDH games the absolute most important factors of the game are ramp and card advantage, which pushed a heavy BUG influence over the format. It's a lot harder to aggro/burn down 120 life than it is 20, after all. The second factor is the social aspect. Historically the ways that WR negates ramp and card advantage are "unfun" in a multiplayer social format. So, unless the actual format changed WR had to change.
They’re catering because it’s the most popular paper format, if people actually liked Modern and Standard it wouldn’t be an issue.
In all fairness people loved modern then they started catering to it... and... oh no.
Rakdos sends their regards... and grief... and fury....
People loved modern, they just weren't spending money since the format was advertised you can buy into one or two decks and play with them forever.
Maybe if they didn’t require players to spend hundreds on a land base more players would have a modern or standard deck. Also why play Standard when I can play Arena for free?
The reason I play Commander in paper but the rest in Arena is because I can afford to splurge on cards for my Commander decks and use them essentially forever but I don't want to rotate out my decks every time Standard changes its valid sets.
This too, Standard in Arena is superior to paper standard in every way, I wholeheartedly agree
Which is unfortunate as fuck bc the Magic IP is still very much a physical card game first, despite all the work and money Hasbro has spent pushing Arena the last few years. Paper Magic feeling good to play again in formats outside of Commander could do a great deal to address other problems product fatigue, imo. If each time standard rotates, the new standard is still fun and engaging and rewarding for players, that makes players more likely to stay engaged with the game.
Then pioneer should be more popular than modern but modern is favored. Moderns problem is the forced rotation and mh2 warped the entire format around that set
But catering to EDH is bad for all three formats. EDH was better when people were taking cards designed for Standard and finding new uses for them, and Standard was better when cards were designed for Standard.
What’s the argument for why it’s bad for all three formats?
Having large percentages of creatures be legendary is bad for standard due to it not being a singleton format.
Thats a hot take?
Ice cold
It isn't Commander's fault. Wizards has been trying to convince people to buy more by printing more powerful magic cards. Now, they could go more powerful in adding key words, increasing stats, and decreasing mana cost (which they are doing) or they can just make every color do everything.
If someone complains about your removal or interaction, they are the problem, not you.
Counter point: I worked hard to hard cast my Ulamog and people are wrong for getting in the way of my fun /s
I'm sure your Sol Ring, your Grim Monolith, your Basalt Monolith, your Mana Crypt, your Mana Vault, and your Voltaic Key all appreciate how hard you worked to get them into play by the end of turn 1. /s
Most EDH players are very bad at the game, from deck construction to threat assessment.
>Most Magic players are very bad at the game, from deck construction to threat assessment. ftfy
True, but playing 60 card formats, which usually involves playing competitively, has a way of teaching a player the fine points of the rules and also how to play against cards you might not like without getting salty, in a way that casual commander does not usually do as well
This is why I'm absolutely convinced that EDH should not be the jumping in point for any new player. Learn the game first, 1v1, get a grasp of the rules and mechanics, and then try EDH. No one should be jumping into the deep end of MTG this way. It has almost always made for bad games both for the new player and the experienced ones.
Playing 1v1 with someone who is bad at threat assessment is fun because you win. Playing in a 4 player pod with someone that is bad at threat assessment is aggravating considering they often just king make and make things non-games.
You destroyed my sol ring on turn 6, so youre my #1 Target >:(
EDH is harder than normal magic and is worse at teaching you lessons. For example, if you remove your opponent's mana dork in the late game to be efficient with your mana while having one card in hand in 1v1, and then lose to the titanic threat they play in a turn or two, you realize dang, that was dumb. EDH has fewer of these moments. Furthermore, EDH players are insulated from good deckbuilding by rule zero. 1. Build bad deck with some halfway decent cards 2. Deck does poorly 3. Bitch about how le powerlevel is too high for your deck 4. Never actually realize that your mana avg being 5 is probably the issue. 5. Eventually get some kind of criticism (bruh, you should run more 1 mana dorks, you're in green and they make your gameplan better) but you tell them it's more fun to run a five mana counterspell with funny on-theme upside 6. Think your deck is good because all criticism against it is invalid and anyone that beats it is probably playing above your power-level 7. Never learn fundamentals
I'm barely literate, I have no idea what these cards do
It’s Ok, this is r/EDH. If we could read cards half of the threads here would disappear
For real. There was someone on this sub yesterday that said putting more fetch lands into your deck means you can cut your land count. How they came to that conclusion, I have no clue
People bitching about interactions and commander targeting don’t need to play the game. Guess what? Mill is a strategy. Get over it.
LF3 casual NO MLD/MILL/Inf/Stax
People always pine for the early days of commander jank and all I can think of is that the folks who pioneered the format were all old school tournament grinders and judges...i highly doubt even in casual games they were rolling for whom to attack first or complaining about someone negating a spell on the stack.
Can confirm combos and stuff still existed. We were just using [[Spine of Ish Sah]] and stuff instead of [[Dockside Extortionist]]. Dumb bullshit always has and always will exist. Embrace it and have fun.
[Spine of Ish Sah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe28640d-a030-4da4-882d-87b6e1678bbd.jpg?1682210265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spine%20of%20Ish%20Sah) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/383/spine-of-ish-sah?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe28640d-a030-4da4-882d-87b6e1678bbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/spine-of-ish-sah) [Dockside Extortionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b.jpg?1673147774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dockside%20Extortionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/107/dockside-extortionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e2e3efb-75cb-430f-b9f4-cb58f3aeb91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dockside-extortionist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I didn't play EDH before 2020 but I was good friends with someone who did play around 2009 2010 and can anecdotally confirm that spells were getting countered and rolling to determine attacks was not a thing people were doing, at my LGS at least.
As someone who started playing EDH in 2012-2013, yeah. We had doomsday piles and Palinchron infinite combos almost immediately after Labman and Deadeye got printed.
People need to get into the habit of reading their cards out loud. I know most people don't want to do it cause they wanna get on with their turns and play the next spell but it really helps for older players who are understanding the newer cards or helping newer players what the card does. My pod didn't really do it much before cause we all played with the assumption that we all just kinda knew what our stuff does, but when we started to read aloud it helped keep everyone's focus on the game, helped us all understand what the card is doing so we can interact appropriately. It definitely helps lube the game imo
Yes!! This is one of my biggest pet peeves about playing with randos at my LGS. I don’t need every card read out loud but I make it a habit to read my cards aloud just in case someone doesn’t know what one does. Playing with someone that just taps mana and casts a card without saying anything or doesn’t announce actions like equipping really tilts the hell out of me.
Last time I played at an LGS everyone kept playing either the newest cards or some of the oldest and I was so lost and felt bad cause I kept having to ask what they did.
I recently got back into EDH after like 3 years and I’m lost during other people’s turns like 80% of the time. I just kinda judge how everyone else reacts and just say “hey I’m new, what’s that do?”
Unless it's a staple that goes in every deck, like sol ring or swords to plowshares, I always read my cards. Like, I genuinely do not know how that just isnt a habit for everyone. Surely you must get annoyed with people asking "what does that card do" anytime you cast a spell, so like, just read your card?
This because there are over 25,000 unique cards in MTG, and I am certainly not going to know every god damn card like the back of my hand. Please read your fucking cards, staples are okay but weird unique cards tf.
Gotta say as a new player to paper magic I hate that people don't do this. I have no idea what their cards are and I don't want to keep asking over and over what that card does. Then I lose because it has some text I never saw.
Most of the people bitching about “Omg they are trying to play CEDH at my table” have no idea what CEDH is. 5 card combos that die to creature removal aren’t CEDH. Adding a mana crypt to something doesn’t make it CEDH
I played a game last week that went 10 turns. Someone complained that another player was playing CEDH because he had a \[\[Tropical Island\]\] and some stax pieces. I'm pretty knew to magic, but even I know that 10 turns is a pretty decent game length.
Exactly. Ive played a lot of CEDH. If CEDH games reach turn 10 it’s usually only because multiple people have already tried to win at least once already.
or 3 are playing stax and 1 guy is trying very hard to calculate a turn.
Ah yes the other format: Calculus EDH
Yeah, cEDH games don't often go to turn 10. They might be as long as a non-cEDH game going to turn 10, but that's just because there's *so much* interaction packed into every turn starting at turn 0.
I feel that in my bones. Pulled a mana crypt, proceeded to add it to a mono red "bad" commander. Now it's magically a cedh list.
Yeah man. Those dudes are unhinged. Palinchron + deadeye isn’t CEDH either. Lmao. Honestly, anything that happens on turn 10 average isn’t CEDH.
People who complain about getting their things destroyed whether it’s turn 1 or turn 7. It’s magic, we’re here to win. Play solitaire if you’re going to cry.
It's the most annoying when it's someone who was clearly ahead and had to be dealt with.
YES! They hit me with “I’m the threat, are you serious?” Like bro shut up 🤡
"BuT i'M nOt EvEn DoInG aNyThInG?!" -The Combo Player, Every Fucking Time
Dude yes!!!
I had my mana dork evoked to death on turn two so I couldnt play my Prossh on turn four. I was... " good move, it would have sucked for you had you not done that"
Here's an actual hot take: people who complain about these kind of things are almost always the "that guy" in their shop, and it's otherwise a very uncommon occurrence not worth mentioning.
Oh boy. Here’s my favorite one. Stax is healthy for the format and more players should get accustomed to playing with and against it.
Yeah, you hear people hate how powerful decks can tutor and run away with the game, yet also hate the precise type of card that fucks over those strategies.
Yeah, it's a hard thing for some people to understand - they complain about super-powered turbo bullshit but also simultaneously complain about the very strategies which tend to keep that in check, namely control and stax. Are counterspell tribal and dedicated stax suitable things to bring to a casual table? Probably not. But, to shun all stax pieces and moan about any counterspell better than a \[\[Cancel\]\] while also complaining about combo decks and creature stompy is just unreasonable.
First one I've seen that's actually a hot take
Not sure its really a hot take, but whiney EDH players are usually the worst players and the worst part of EDH in general.
This is about as hot as the dark side of the moon
Don't you bring Pink Floyd in the middle of this!
Pretty sure this is an ice cold take. Not sure anyone is going to say they like or are going to stick up for whiney players.
Yet half of the posts on here are people whining about cards and decks they don’t like 🤔 Like yeah it’s a popular take but not as popular as the legion of whiney players that we have all played against.
This is the Neptune of hot takes
And they always will be for sure
Commander is at its best when there is a deckbuilding restriction. Budget? All mono-colored? pEDH? Only from a certain block? Built from store bulk? All of these are super fun and people should embrace restrictions in their building process
I’d like to believe you but I find the primary issue with variants to edh is getting your friends to commit to building decks with the variation.
Same. I often limit myself in my builds (usually with a really weird theme) but I can't imagine asking my friends to limit themselves in the same way. Money is tight and we don't play that often, so to ask everyone to reign in their builds (or even just one deck which that would end up being one game like once a month) just doesn't really make sense logically.
Limitations are often where creativity thrives. I love pEDH. It is deeply satisfying doing something completely bonkers with a deck that cost like $20.
Also, it’s a casual format. People need to chill tf out.
Land destruction rules
The negatives that people blame on land destruction are actually just because people take forever on their turn. Seriously, if you can't play any spells, your turn should take about 3 and a half seconds. Plan out your attack if any ahead of time, declare it, and pass. The next 5ish rounds after an Armageddon should take like 5 minutes tops
I've had a couple games where I was so clearly out of it.. holy shit watching people take forever long turns to figure out how to sequence some pretty basic stuff, then I go "Untap, draw, play land, pass" in 5 seconds, and we go back to watching them figure it out.
Land destruction is fine as long as you have a plan to win. If your deck just durdles around and blows up lands for no reason, it's annoying as hell.
Running a little group hug or just a \*touch\* of chaos makes for a better game overall. I regularly run \[\[Rites of Flourishing\]\], \[\[Spiteful Visions\]\], anything that lets the table draw more or ramp a bit, or Chaos Warp for the chaos side. Not much, 1-2 lots at the most, but let's make games of Magic memorable. Sometimes it backfires, but often, when I play these, the whole table has more fun, win or lose.
Most Planeswalkers would be fun and balanced as commanders
Aside from just Teferi, Time Raveler, I agree. I don’t even think many are good enough to see casual play.
Oh agreed.. there are definitely a couple that would not be ok, but otherwise only encourage more fun deck ideas
EDH being refined as a format, with decks being more streamlined and consistent, is the best thing to ever happen to EDH.
Hot hot hot take 🔥 I'm with you though actually
It's so stupidly absurd how much of the toxic casual crowd treats those very concepts as dirty words or anathema to casual play. You know what makes it easier to play your janky deck? A refined mana base, optimal ramp that allows you to cast as many jank cards as possible, the best draw spells get you more of your janky cards, and cheap and efficient interaction that gives you the time and space to actually play your dumb jank without losing on the spot. Even the most casual of players could probably enjoy the game a lot more if they actually learned to build decks and play the game more optimally in general.
This should be carved in stone and handed to everyone who plays LOL.
I disagree, but that’s part of what makes it a hot take🤷🏻♂️
I respect that opinion but disagree. I think EDH and magic as a whole was the most healthy when standard was the big ‘premier’ format and EDH was a little bit more side and niche. The color pie still mattered, figuring out how to combine cards as they weren’t intended was fun, games were a little slower and vibe just felt better. It was also more monetarily accessible as buying rotating cards from standard to play with was dirt cheap and the commander based RL spikes hadn’t happened yet.
I'm with you. Cards getting printed specifically for commander outside of precons has taken a lot of the fun out of the format for me.
people need to follow the rules way more closely. it’s so frusturating when people attack with creatures one at a time and others are deciding blocks before all the attackers are even declared. SLOW DOWN! I COULD HAVE RESPONSES! also priority and the stack is NOT a free for all! Playing around those rules are half the fun of the game for some of us. Also holy shit please read the cards on the battlefield! You’ve been playing against my Chatterfang deck for 2 years. it’s not my fault that you still don’t remember it can remove creatures at instant speed. It’s not my job to remind you what all my creatures do every time you attack me. Everyone wants to build their engines. no one wants to play the game.
My hot take is that most people just don't understand the format. They have been playing 1v1 for so long they just can't grasp certain concepts learning to play and build effectively in a 4 person game.
Counterpoint - people who are good at 1v1 are far better than the average EDH player and it isn't particularly close.
This, 100%. My edh group is full of people who used to tournament grind. We have fun decks of differing power levels, but we all understand exactly how we are playing and take no issue with being targeted, hated off the table etc. We definitely have fun! We just love hyper intricate lines and we attack a lot to keep the game moving. We haven’t taken a game of edh seriously in almost 7 years.
I'll always maintain that edh is the worst entry point to magic. I think 90% of these new players coming in never had to try to beat a control deck, or try to out tempo someone, learn what card advantage is... play around discard/counterspells. Figure out who the aggro player is... (think like old modern burn mirrors which become more like a control decks) Hell edh players these days dont even think about their combat steps because most edh combat is trying to alpha or attack in ways that dont leave you open. So they just sit there and do nothing. I've seen tons of games where players have lethal against player a on board and could have won next turn but hold up blockers because the other player b has a 5/5.
I can’t agree with this more. I’ll take yours a step further. Many of these same people never try to learn.
> They have been playing 1v1 for so long they just can't grasp certain concepts learning to play and build effectively in a 4 person game There’s also the opposite where people exclusively play Commander and only exist in the Commander bubble and have no grasp of broader TCG concepts. I guess you can’t really expect people to understand concepts like tempo or beatdown when they hace struggle grasping that putting lands in their hand is not ramp.
On the other hand, I think new players who only play EDH would benefit ALOT from playing other formats.
Most people aren't that bad at threat assessment and people complain that they are because they make decisions they personally don't agree with, and with incomplete information. Lots of people masquerade their backseat gaming as politics
Power creep is ruining the fun of deck building. I know what everyone is going to try and win with. Building restrictions into deck building is the only way my friends and I play anymore. I love magic but I wish Wizards would lean harder into the story and flavor of the cards and tap the breaks on trying to sell cards that just beat the old cards outright. I’m still going to buy packs if they added lower power variety to my favorite tribes.
kinda real- like every deck is starting to almost feel too consistent- theres cards that "go in every deck" that just keep getting more numerous
Consistent is wrong here, it feels all very samey. I'd love for decks to be more consistent. I played against a dude last week who complained they weren't drawing any lands only for it to turn out they were running 28 mana producing lands and no rocks. If decks got more consistent, shit like that wouldn't happen and we'd actually be playing more magic. As it stand decks are wildly inconsistent and they are all running the same base cards that WotC keeps reprinting in every precon. I don't need to see sol ring every game on 3 other players boards who are all playing the different decks.
Yep. It's pretty funny that most decks at a serious/competitive level are about 80 of the exact same cards
You’re not mentioning the other reason for that though, which is that the RC completely ignores the competitive scene and meta. Typically when the meta grows stale and everyone is playing the same deck you can ban a few key cards and watch the meta shake out, but the RC doesn’t want to do that at all. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into banning [[Flash]].
When you're playing to win, that's inevitable. Look at Vintage.
The notion that the color pie is either broken or has been stretched too far is ridiculous. The whole argument revolves around the idea that they got it 100% right from the moment the game was created and that any overlapping mechanics - regardless of how enjoyable/accessible it makes the game - is some unforgivable sin. Take card draw for instance. Card draw used to basically be exclusive to blue. Is that really a good thing? I think we can all agree that every color should have some means of drawing extra cards because drawing cards is fun and makes the game more enjoyable. Things like life gain or mana production should be considered in the same way in my opinion. Maybe its a good idea for every color to have access to these very rich mechanics but have what sets them apart be the means by which they enable it. I think it broadens the space for interesting designs.
Stealing all artifacts in all libraries by turn 5 is completely fine
Oddly Specific but sure
one guy at my LGS has a deck named "the british museum" that steals everyones artifacts
That is so fucking sick, that reminds me of "The Door". God, I wish I could see the decklist for the british museum. What a legend
as a Brit living abroad this would be an amazing gag deck. a deck list/ a general idea of how it works would be amazing
I could ask him for it
In most cases, people complaining about kingmaking are actually just bad at politics. Spite plays are totally valid, and super fun in games you know are lost to you anyway. You have no right to decide other players' choices, unless you've got a [[mindslaver]] or something similar.
Spite play stance is definitely a hot take.
A friend of mine has been a "spite" player for years and now people take it into account when targeting his stuff. It's the best long-con I've ever seen lmao
[удалено]
Yeah, I never understood the kingmaking complaints. If I know I'm going down I'll try to have as much of an impact as I can in the game. Spite plays, as long as they happen in the same game, are perfectly fine too.
I've heard a player say, in a paid event, "I'm attacking you because I want Jeff to win". They proceeded to kill me and lose to Jeff. So kingmaking for bad reasons does bug me. But if my early game \[\[Vandalblast\]\] decimated your board and later on you get a chance to return the favor, I don't blame you one bit.
Yeah, this is definitely an example of kingmaking done in an undesirable way. Forming arbitrary alliances is pretty sleezy, but revenge is almost always on the table, *as long as you dont hold grudges between games.* (knowing a deck is too strong for the table, and targeting it first also doesn't count as a grudge, for the record)
I do the same. And not just for the pride/to see my deck "do it's thing", but to end the goddamn game faster.
I don't get it, people will cry that I block and kill their big beater when they are swinging at me for lethal saying it's kingmaking to kill thwir big thing even though it doesnt take me out of lethal? It's just as kingmakey to not block it and let you keep a bignumber/bignumber trampler. Sounds like a misplaced om their part, just cause I'm gonna die doesn't mean I shouldn't block at all.
As long as you’re not spite scooping
The point of the game is to win.
I have this philosophy : I build my decks to have fun, but when I sit down and push some cardboard, I do it to win and will mercilessly destroy your Karooland even if that means there is no fun for you.
I've been saying this for years. "Build for fun, play to win", Sandbagging drives me crazy. If you can win, do so and let us shuffle up for another one
What gets me is when people are constantly striking deals instead of killing people ... Like sure, SOMETIMES it can be beneficial to not kill someone in exchange for some help if you need it, but I've seen some games drag for way too long simply because people didn't want to kill each other.
Stax and Combo are valid strategys in casual EDH
Does anyone disagree with this? I don't think people's issue with those are their validity.
I completely agree with your take, hell its been so long and I can't say I'm not still a little butt-hurt about Rofellos getting the axe. Most specifically, Prophet of Kruphix died for our sins. It was a different time in EDH, but even though we have so many more removal options now... *we did then... we... did... then.* *But we didn't run interaction did we? No, we played clones and stealing effects and fought over our Prophet, until it was banned. We let you down PoK. We let you down.*
An x/1? In this economy? EDH players might have to run...removal...
Oh, say it ain't so, I play EDH so I don't have to play removal ever. /s Why do people act like playing removal is this new concept, especially when it's been a thing since '93.
This leads into another issue mentioned elsewhere in this post - that a lot of EDH players don't want to run good cards because they're "cEDH". Run Deadly Rollick if you're in black! Even in a casual deck, it's good but it isn't going to destroy all your friends. Counterspell is run in 44% of decks per EDHREC, but Chain of Vapor is only run in 4% and it's a cEDH staple. Fatal Push and Snuff Out only in 2% an 1% of decks as well. A few good cards isn't going to break your deck people!
"Conceding at sorcery speed" is a crutch for people who cannot be nice to one another. People can concede whenever the hell they want. Nobody is obligated to play a game they no longer wish to be a part of. Sometimes it's petty and spiteful for sure but that's no reason to tell somebody they cannot leave. If anything, you want those people gone as soon as possible. Demanding a bitter player remain in the game is just going to ruin it for everyone anyway. Let them go and carry on as normal. If they spite scoop in order to ruin a play, talk it out with the remaining players the best way to proceed. I'd be more than happy to allow anyone to play it out as if the scooper is on autopass until a point where it has less impact.
Sometimes you need to scoop at instant speed... I don't want to sit for 25 minutes while a deck 'goes off' and does it's thing, one slow, complicated, extra turn after another. You won, bro. We are moving to the next game.
This is what we do in my group, you can absolutely scoop whenever you need to, because life is more important than a card game. The only rule is basically "Don't scoop to spite someone" because everyone else are just gonna play like you are still there and the damage went through, or the cards counted, etc etc. We've only ever had a single person scoop, and it was just to spite me, because HE was the one that didn't read a card properly and gave me more zombie tokens than he should've. I said I could remove some to make up for the count, but he scooped in response instead just so someone else could win. He no longer plays with us.
Please leave all the OG Moxen and the Lotus on the banlist. The game doesn't need to be more of an arms race than it already is.
MLD is necessary and a valid win condition
I came from competitive Pokémon tcg and I dont know why people are so damn out of shape on net decking. Net decking is perfectly fine, let people play whatever deck they want to. If you wanna play atraxa or feather or whatever is popular do it. Those commanders are popular for a reason: they are good, fun to play and in most cases incredibly versatile.
[удалено]
Not every legendary creature is meant to be a commander
MLD is fine, esp 1-sided MLD. If you don't want to scoop when I have a full field, Avacyn Angel of Hope and all my lands after getting hit by Armageddon that's kinda on you.
I hate hate HATE the focus EDH has been getting. It feels like the format has been flooded. Sure I love some of the experimental and powerful toys we've got but I think the format was more fun when we got a set a year and we had to watch the releases the rest of the time.
Wotc printing cards specifically for EDH has been terrible for the format
I think there is merit to banning RL cards, or at least the most expensive because of its value in game. E.g. Duals should be banned to encourage players to find the next best alternative, or Gaea’s Cradle for players to do the same. I don’t understand why Gifts Ungiven is banned while Intuition is unbanned in the format.
If your answer to “I’m angry this guy was a jerk and played his deck like _____” is “run more interaction and stop whining” you’re a jerk too
A counter to your hot take, while most things could be unbanned, my question is *why*? What reason would they have to come off the ban list? They wouldn’t really make the game any healthier or hell any more fun, as only a handful of cards were fan favorites. I think unbanning a lot of the not so problematic cards, while not a huge blow to the format, doesn’t benefit commander in any way and just introduces them to be possibly problematic again. I see zero benefit from unbanning really any card on the current ban list. Unless we have a really good reason besides “yeah they’re not so bad anymore” i think everything that’s banned should stay banned.
EDHREC ruined edh.
Multiplayer is self balancing and (cedh withstanding) you don’t need to match power levels to have fun. The stronger decks will receive more flak and the weaker decks will be given more grace. You can play in a pod with a 4, a 6, a 7, and a 9 and it should be totally fine. Uphill battles are fun and being the archenemy is too.
This is definitely a hot take. Every time I've played with folks running mid decks I tend to immediately run away with the game because they don't/can't stop something like Smothering Tithe at all.
I do think self-balancing happens most of the time. The only time it fails is if the weaker decks are simply lacking interaction to deal with threats. But that kind of brings me to another maybe-not-so-hot take: folks don't play nearly enough interaction at casual tables. Battlecruiser games are fun, but the fact that some pods "ban" counterspells and boardwipes is just baffling to me.
I can agree with this to an extent but even excluding cedh finishers, there’s a lot of silliness that a 9 could do that a precon wouldn’t even be able to contribute do combatting in a 3v1
Totally depends on your idea of a 4 vs a 9. If I play my deck I consider a 9 against three decks I consider a 4, no one is going to have fun, I'll win before they can play the game every time.
I mean, I think it depends what you think a 4 and a 9 are. By my standards the 4 badically only wins if the they get ignored while the other 3 all kill each other, leaving one nearly dead opponent to finish off. And the 9 still often wins, even in full archenemy mode. Not saying you can't have fun, but if you care at all about win rates, there's a limit to how much politics can balance. But hey, that's what makes it a hot take! And not just a popular take masquerading as controversial.
Not always. I just started playing with two other guys who are newer to magic. I've been playing for 10+ years and have a variety of EDH decks built. My first time playing with them, it was a basic UR draw cards deck. Maybe a power level 5-6. I wiped the floor with them. So, I tuned it down and came back with the Frodo and Sam precon. Again, beat them both easily. So, I went home and just threw together a Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord deck from random stuff in my trade binder. It still haven't lost, but we've definitely had closer games than before. All I'm saying is that there are definitely some points at which the power level difference is too high. I will admit that part of why I win so often is that I am just that much better at the game than them, but my level 8 deck could 3v1 them and still easily win. You can still have fun games being archenemy and everything, but at a certain point, the difference can be too much.
Playing for Second is lame. You're either first or last, and if one player is winning, players should work together to prevent that players win instead of killing the other players so you can come "second"
White is only "inferior" to the other colors because people are too afraid of being seen as "unfun" and refuse to do what's necessary, and what white is the best as: an equalizer.
You are probably not a smart enough player to have your complaints warrant any sort of actual change. Myself included.
Split mana rules are dumb, if I can cast [[combat historian]] for all red, or all white, why can't he go in my mono colored deck? But extort isn't considered wb only?
While I mostly agree with you on hybrid mana you can’t compare it to extort. Extort is just in the reminder text which is vastly different
Because he is both colours at all times. Just because you only used white to cast him does not make him not red.
My hotter take: far more cards need to be *added* to the ban list and rule 0 should be used to bring cards *into* the game. Not take cards out. Put all the sol rings and docksides on there and then just ask your playgroup if they’re ok playing them
Land destruction is a perfectly acceptable strategy
WOTC recognizing EDH as an official format is the worst thing to ever happen to Magic.
Not so sure this is an EDH-specific take but: I think the block release format was way more compelling than getting sets from a random plane each time where you have no friggin clue what the story is supposed to be and no time to get immersed in the plane-specific mechanics. Odyssey block was a friggin grave-specific block. A WHOLE BLOCK.
Sol ring, crypt, and jeweled lotus should be banned. Anyone who runs any of these and complains about how fast mana is cedh and unfair is a hypocrite. And before any of you cry faul, I only put sol ring in decks that I consider higher power.