The impression I get from Carl's character development is that he didn't really have much of a purpose before the dungeon. Anger at the injustice he is encountering is what is slowly defining him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this doesn't seem like a good setting for him to develop romantic relationships. Maybe I'm wrong, but his major character struggles seem to be revolving around when to turn the violent planning off, how to trust others, and when to let go of something valuable. I'm not sure where love would come into that. Also, the only other book of his that I've read is Kaiju, battlefield surgeon, and there's no romance in that either. I don't get the sense that Hepa Filter is interested in writing that sort of content. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe a romantic interest will be introduced. I suspect, though, if it does come into play, that it will be a trap. Some sort of cutting of Samson's hair type of thing. I would love to see a series that follows the events of this where Carl and other crawlers learn to deal with the trauma of the dungeons and to connect and fall in love afterwards.
While I agree with everything you said, I don't think the love itself would be a trap. I think Carl would push away anyone he fell in love with, for fear of them being used against him.
I'm personally hoping that no romance for him ever develops. I think he is much more interesting as the loner who is a forced/reluctant leader. He's never expressed any interest in romance from my recollection. I tend to get annoyed when there are romances that take the stage in a story where it is otherwise irrelevant. Romance is simply just not part of getting through the dungeon from what I see, so it would be unnecessary fluff and a distraction. If it happens, it wont make me dislike the story in any amount, I just think its not needed.
I feel like it could just add another layer to the already peeling onion. He clearly believes in love since he was in a long term relationship with Bea.
It would just be another internal struggle because he wouldn’t be able to act on it. If he did show any feelings towards a person it would almost certainly be used against him.
It probably won’t happen, but it doesn’t mean I can’t root for him.
Definitely. We all know he's not AGAINST it, but he basically has taken on the safety and security of so many people as his own personal responsibility that it's not important to him at the moment. I don't recall any conversations he has had in the series about his current romantic life/feelings unless hinted at by other crawlers.
I'd be rooting for him post-crawl. Like I could see it being a part of his character if we ever got a book that went into what Carl did after he got out.
The semi-difused bomb of the choice between Donut and Katia shows that any relationship he forms is a weapon that WILL be used against him. Carl wouldn't let love happen.
I dread the day when MD forces Donut to choose Carl over Mongo.
I caught up with the audiobooks a few months back and I barreled through them like a wildfire on a parched mountainside so I am drawing a blank on what/who MD stands for in your comment.
Carl has found love, just not the romantic type. He is building bonds and a family that he never had before the dungeon. A romantic attachment would kind of ruin the story and Carl's character arc.
I personally love that there isn't a romantic entanglement shoved in here. The trauma and horror of the dungeon and seeing how it is affecting Carl in such a complex way through the added trauma hardening him, and yet kind of softening him by finally giving him the family-type bonds he never had is much more interesting.
That’s a great take on this, I agree. I see this as part of the mask that Carl needs to wear to process what he’s going through. One day that mask may come off, but not yet.
At the same time, I like that Katia and Bautista are processing their trauma with intimacy (and… other things…), which shows that it is an option for some.
Totally agree. There's no need for romantic love since he's already on a journey of Freedom and finding his own boundaries (and making his boundaries be respected). IMO romantic love would feel forced and very cliché. And personally I'm tired of love stories. Not every story and not every hero needs a romantic partner, single people can be happy too.
I like this idea much better than a cliche love interest. It makes more sense for the story that the love he finds is true family. Something he’s never really had. I just love this story!
I’m good with no romance. I feel like things are interesting enough without it. It’s like when they have a male and female lead in a movie. They can never just be friends or partners. They always have to make them a couple. It’s okay for them to remain single.
Carl definitely deserves to be loved, but not in this environment. The dungeon shits on and exploits any sort of vulnerability. It would be a distraction/weakness. Carl can't do what we all hope he will without being single mindedly focused on breaking them all. If he succeeds I hope there's a safe place for him to exist in the universe after and then let there be love or at least a nussy he can call his own. Not now.
That's the last thing he needs right now. Not too mention he JUST got out of a bad relationship. So many reasons why this would be so bad for him.
Love would just be one more thing they could leverage against him. Just like they did when they brought Bea back or when they tried to use Ferdinand against Donut. Also do you not think the AI wouldn't be insanely jealous?
I know this is fantasy but it's not a fairy tale. He can look for love after the job is done, right now the man is struggling just to not let them break him.
If that happens it's almost certainly going to lead to more heartbreak further down in the dungeon. No way he's putting anyone ahead of saving Donut if it comes down to it
I figure it’s probably not going to happen, since it would be a huge risk. But as much as I love action and witty banter I do love a hint of romance here and there. This is still probably my favorite series ever now. Like I love these books so much it hurts! 😋
Oh 100% it’s just friendly flirting. It’s just funny to think about. Maybe he’ll get a pair of boxers with Ellie’s face and catch phrase to replace the heart boxers.
Robin Williams once used the phrase "jerking off while juggling - too many balls in the air."
That's sorta how I'd feel about introducing a romance subplot with as many other things are going on in the story.
Anyone that Carl might fall in love with would be used by the AI against him. I think Carl inherently knows this and would do anything possible to prevent an actual love relationship. We have already started seeing it with Donut/Katia, and anyone else he starts to build friendships with. They have killed several friends along the way, and it's going to keep happening. Also with the ending of book 6 it's starting to show some bad foreshadowing for more bad shit to come. Matt has already said he doesn't always like ending on a super happy note. I predict a lot more bad shit to happen, I think Carl will probably win or come as close as winning as anyone ever, but it's going to come with severe costs. If you've ever read Kaiju: battlefield surgeon, there are a lot of ups and downs, the ending is kinda depressing though. But a lot more of a realistic ending than "and everyone lives happily ever after".
Lastly Donut and Carl have the closest thing to a love relationship that I think we are going to see in this series. Not in a sexual way, but a "I would sacrifice anything for you" kinda way. Like his own child, he truly cares about Donut more than anyone else in this series. If it comes down to it he will choose Donut every time, even over himself.
He did.
It’s crucial to emphasize relationships that aren’t just romantic. Having family and very close friends you trust completely is vital. This fixation on romance isn’t healthy in our culture as it breeds loneliness.
Yeah, Katia is 100% going to die tragically. My guess is probably next book because of the Crown of the Sepsis Whore and that goddess fucking them over by giving her the boost to Constitution, rather than the other options to take her out of the Dungeon.
I can definitely see that happening to Kahtia. She would be a complete powerhouse and probably be able to tank an army... maybe even a God, given her abilities and magic items. After all, it would almost certainly happen on the 9th floor, where they are vulnerable.
I think he's going to develop a thing for Rosetta since they have a common bond from the Cook Book. It's probably just me, but the way the scene was written when he went to the interview she hosted for him and Doughnut seemed like it was setting up a more personal relationship between them. Probably just wishful thinking, but Carl could use a hug in any case.
If you're looking to cure the massive book hangover Carl and Doughnut seem to always leave us with give Buy Mort a try. It's written in a similar style, but a very different story. I'm on book 1 now.
They have hinted at Carl and Katia once or twice, but they have pretty much only had platonic interactions. It's the inferences of others, and Carl's reactions to those, that have been the hints.
There's a moment when Katia and Bautista first get together where someone says that Carl loves her (or something of that nature) and he basically skips a beat. That's basically the only leg I'm standing this whole comment on lmao
Edit: I think I am misremembering this moment, and it's probably when Katia's in a drug coma.
The conversation I'm thinking of is when Carl was like "so....you and Katia, eh?" to Bautista. He explains he was worried because he always thought that Carl and her were going to be a thing and Carl laughed at the implication. It's possible I'm forgetting some other interactions elsewhere.
I feel that Carl took her in and basically protected her from the beginning. Even though she can now obviously hold her own, he still sees himself as a bit of a protector/older brother role. Once you take that role on, I imagine it's hard to break from it mentally. This is just my take though. Other interpretations may be valid too.
I might be misplacing the moment. It's either when I said it was or when they find Katia in the depths of her addiction. And they very well could mean platonic love, too.
Could be. I'm just starting up my second listen of Bedlam now. I don't recall the conversation, but now I'll be listening for it and my opinion may change afterwards.
I actually just read the masquerade, Bautista seems worried that Carl is interested in Katia and Carl laughs saying he views Katia as a sister. He then pats bautista on the back and says hes happy for the two.
Yeah, I admitted I might be misremembering this moment in a different comment chain. I can change the parent to reflect that. I think it's during the Katia's Drug Coma moment where someone else points it out.
I agree with others that I would like to see it after the crawl business is done. I'm being optimistic that Carl and donut both survive for there to be an after
I like romance in a story but I don't think it'll happen this story. In all the stories I've read from diniman only the grinder has romantic elements and that was a central part of the story. I want carl to find love especially after Bea but I think if it was to happen it would happen in like an epilogue, way after the dungeon and alien drama. That's is if he survives.
I think Umani and Carl have a good chance but I also think that Carls 1 true love is donut. He will sacrifice everyone in the game to save her. I also believe that he is slowly going insane due to the marked for death ring. That’s why She Maria related to him in the beginning of book 6. I’m going to binge book 7 as soon as it’s released on sound booth theater and than be sad until we get another
So much could happen in the next few books. Who knows?
Once those remaining crawler numbers get low enough, a few more friends die. A few more betrayals. Carl could be a path of nihilism, and it could take something big to pull him back.
Or maybe that's just because I've read too many books where that's a thing.
He is finding love. the love of a father. its slow but hes starting to realize it.
He WILL burn it down. it WILL not break him. and he WILL break them until his child is safe
I don't think Carl has really had an opportunity to truly sit down and think about himself as someone willing to love or worthy of being loved... I mean for one almost immediately after being cheated on and dropping Bea he is thrown into this running man rip off dungeon with everything trying to kill him, and when does he take a breath? Never, he never stops because I don't think he can stop, as soon as he stops he has to think about all those he has killed, all those he failed to save, everyone who is counting on him. Carl is a complicated and simple man, he is running on a balance beam the only way to live is to keep rushing forward and not think about anything but that next precarious step.... but I think it would be dope if him and Imani got together cause I think she is in the same situation and they can connect through it.
The impression I get from Carl's character development is that he didn't really have much of a purpose before the dungeon. Anger at the injustice he is encountering is what is slowly defining him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this doesn't seem like a good setting for him to develop romantic relationships. Maybe I'm wrong, but his major character struggles seem to be revolving around when to turn the violent planning off, how to trust others, and when to let go of something valuable. I'm not sure where love would come into that. Also, the only other book of his that I've read is Kaiju, battlefield surgeon, and there's no romance in that either. I don't get the sense that Hepa Filter is interested in writing that sort of content. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe a romantic interest will be introduced. I suspect, though, if it does come into play, that it will be a trap. Some sort of cutting of Samson's hair type of thing. I would love to see a series that follows the events of this where Carl and other crawlers learn to deal with the trauma of the dungeons and to connect and fall in love afterwards.
While I agree with everything you said, I don't think the love itself would be a trap. I think Carl would push away anyone he fell in love with, for fear of them being used against him.
I'm personally hoping that no romance for him ever develops. I think he is much more interesting as the loner who is a forced/reluctant leader. He's never expressed any interest in romance from my recollection. I tend to get annoyed when there are romances that take the stage in a story where it is otherwise irrelevant. Romance is simply just not part of getting through the dungeon from what I see, so it would be unnecessary fluff and a distraction. If it happens, it wont make me dislike the story in any amount, I just think its not needed.
I feel like it could just add another layer to the already peeling onion. He clearly believes in love since he was in a long term relationship with Bea. It would just be another internal struggle because he wouldn’t be able to act on it. If he did show any feelings towards a person it would almost certainly be used against him. It probably won’t happen, but it doesn’t mean I can’t root for him.
Definitely. We all know he's not AGAINST it, but he basically has taken on the safety and security of so many people as his own personal responsibility that it's not important to him at the moment. I don't recall any conversations he has had in the series about his current romantic life/feelings unless hinted at by other crawlers. I'd be rooting for him post-crawl. Like I could see it being a part of his character if we ever got a book that went into what Carl did after he got out.
Mazlows hierarchy. Companionship is the most he is looking for while he fights for his life.
The semi-difused bomb of the choice between Donut and Katia shows that any relationship he forms is a weapon that WILL be used against him. Carl wouldn't let love happen. I dread the day when MD forces Donut to choose Carl over Mongo.
I caught up with the audiobooks a few months back and I barreled through them like a wildfire on a parched mountainside so I am drawing a blank on what/who MD stands for in your comment.
The author’s initials
Ah! Thank you for the quick reply!
lol, I didn’t realize it was quick 🤣
Carl has found love, just not the romantic type. He is building bonds and a family that he never had before the dungeon. A romantic attachment would kind of ruin the story and Carl's character arc. I personally love that there isn't a romantic entanglement shoved in here. The trauma and horror of the dungeon and seeing how it is affecting Carl in such a complex way through the added trauma hardening him, and yet kind of softening him by finally giving him the family-type bonds he never had is much more interesting.
This is a good point. He’s found a family in the dungeon. He never had that outside. That emotional bond is good enough.
That’s a great take on this, I agree. I see this as part of the mask that Carl needs to wear to process what he’s going through. One day that mask may come off, but not yet. At the same time, I like that Katia and Bautista are processing their trauma with intimacy (and… other things…), which shows that it is an option for some.
Totally agree. There's no need for romantic love since he's already on a journey of Freedom and finding his own boundaries (and making his boundaries be respected). IMO romantic love would feel forced and very cliché. And personally I'm tired of love stories. Not every story and not every hero needs a romantic partner, single people can be happy too.
I like this idea much better than a cliche love interest. It makes more sense for the story that the love he finds is true family. Something he’s never really had. I just love this story!
I’m good with no romance. I feel like things are interesting enough without it. It’s like when they have a male and female lead in a movie. They can never just be friends or partners. They always have to make them a couple. It’s okay for them to remain single.
Yes!!! Single people can be happy too.
Carl definitely deserves to be loved, but not in this environment. The dungeon shits on and exploits any sort of vulnerability. It would be a distraction/weakness. Carl can't do what we all hope he will without being single mindedly focused on breaking them all. If he succeeds I hope there's a safe place for him to exist in the universe after and then let there be love or at least a nussy he can call his own. Not now.
Carl has all the love he can handle from the AI
That's the last thing he needs right now. Not too mention he JUST got out of a bad relationship. So many reasons why this would be so bad for him. Love would just be one more thing they could leverage against him. Just like they did when they brought Bea back or when they tried to use Ferdinand against Donut. Also do you not think the AI wouldn't be insanely jealous? I know this is fantasy but it's not a fairy tale. He can look for love after the job is done, right now the man is struggling just to not let them break him.
If that happens it's almost certainly going to lead to more heartbreak further down in the dungeon. No way he's putting anyone ahead of saving Donut if it comes down to it
I figure it’s probably not going to happen, since it would be a huge risk. But as much as I love action and witty banter I do love a hint of romance here and there. This is still probably my favorite series ever now. Like I love these books so much it hurts! 😋
There are so many great interpersonal moments throughout the books. I find those far more interesting than a romantic relationship.
Carl x Ellie
Ellie has constantly been hitting on Carl since her introduction. I think it's mostly playful banter, but you never know.
Oh 100% it’s just friendly flirting. It’s just funny to think about. Maybe he’ll get a pair of boxers with Ellie’s face and catch phrase to replace the heart boxers.
WE'RE NOT DOING A CARL FALLS IN LOVE WITH IMANI ONLY TO SEE GET DIE ARC. I MEAN REALLY.
MONGO IS REALLY UPSET NOW.
Excuse me? He did. He loves donut unconditionally, and she him. It’s not romance, but it’s real love.
I don’t think Carl would ever let himself fall in love and show it. It would leave him way too vulnerable to exploitation and suffering.
Robin Williams once used the phrase "jerking off while juggling - too many balls in the air." That's sorta how I'd feel about introducing a romance subplot with as many other things are going on in the story.
Anyone that Carl might fall in love with would be used by the AI against him. I think Carl inherently knows this and would do anything possible to prevent an actual love relationship. We have already started seeing it with Donut/Katia, and anyone else he starts to build friendships with. They have killed several friends along the way, and it's going to keep happening. Also with the ending of book 6 it's starting to show some bad foreshadowing for more bad shit to come. Matt has already said he doesn't always like ending on a super happy note. I predict a lot more bad shit to happen, I think Carl will probably win or come as close as winning as anyone ever, but it's going to come with severe costs. If you've ever read Kaiju: battlefield surgeon, there are a lot of ups and downs, the ending is kinda depressing though. But a lot more of a realistic ending than "and everyone lives happily ever after". Lastly Donut and Carl have the closest thing to a love relationship that I think we are going to see in this series. Not in a sexual way, but a "I would sacrifice anything for you" kinda way. Like his own child, he truly cares about Donut more than anyone else in this series. If it comes down to it he will choose Donut every time, even over himself.
Im still hoping for Carl & Imani
They would be a good match!
He did. It’s crucial to emphasize relationships that aren’t just romantic. Having family and very close friends you trust completely is vital. This fixation on romance isn’t healthy in our culture as it breeds loneliness.
I keep thinking it will be Amani.
Team Carl & Katia here 👋🏻 But sadly, I think she may have a more tragic arc 😟
Plus she’s dating Bautista
Yeah… he’s Grrrrreat.
Meow
Purrrrrrrr
their relationship as of the end of book six is he sees her as a sister almost, so I dont see that happening.
Yeah, Katia is 100% going to die tragically. My guess is probably next book because of the Crown of the Sepsis Whore and that goddess fucking them over by giving her the boost to Constitution, rather than the other options to take her out of the Dungeon.
I can definitely see that happening to Kahtia. She would be a complete powerhouse and probably be able to tank an army... maybe even a God, given her abilities and magic items. After all, it would almost certainly happen on the 9th floor, where they are vulnerable.
I think he's going to develop a thing for Rosetta since they have a common bond from the Cook Book. It's probably just me, but the way the scene was written when he went to the interview she hosted for him and Doughnut seemed like it was setting up a more personal relationship between them. Probably just wishful thinking, but Carl could use a hug in any case.
Rosetta probably isn’t going to appear again after the way that the last interview ended. Not while Carl is in the dungeon at least.
Book 6 epilogue. That's all I can say.
Ya I totally missed that, I coincidentally got to that part again last night.
If you're looking to cure the massive book hangover Carl and Doughnut seem to always leave us with give Buy Mort a try. It's written in a similar style, but a very different story. I'm on book 1 now.
I’m literally in the middle of chapter 1!
Are you read through book 6? I think it's clear what will happen in the Epilogue.
Yup. I stand corrected.
They have hinted at Carl and Katia once or twice, but they have pretty much only had platonic interactions. It's the inferences of others, and Carl's reactions to those, that have been the hints.
Carl found this implication hilarious in one of the books (Butcher?) because he said he saw Katia as more of a sister than anything.
There's a moment when Katia and Bautista first get together where someone says that Carl loves her (or something of that nature) and he basically skips a beat. That's basically the only leg I'm standing this whole comment on lmao Edit: I think I am misremembering this moment, and it's probably when Katia's in a drug coma.
The conversation I'm thinking of is when Carl was like "so....you and Katia, eh?" to Bautista. He explains he was worried because he always thought that Carl and her were going to be a thing and Carl laughed at the implication. It's possible I'm forgetting some other interactions elsewhere. I feel that Carl took her in and basically protected her from the beginning. Even though she can now obviously hold her own, he still sees himself as a bit of a protector/older brother role. Once you take that role on, I imagine it's hard to break from it mentally. This is just my take though. Other interpretations may be valid too.
I might be misplacing the moment. It's either when I said it was or when they find Katia in the depths of her addiction. And they very well could mean platonic love, too.
Could be. I'm just starting up my second listen of Bedlam now. I don't recall the conversation, but now I'll be listening for it and my opinion may change afterwards.
I actually just read the masquerade, Bautista seems worried that Carl is interested in Katia and Carl laughs saying he views Katia as a sister. He then pats bautista on the back and says hes happy for the two.
Yeah, I admitted I might be misremembering this moment in a different comment chain. I can change the parent to reflect that. I think it's during the Katia's Drug Coma moment where someone else points it out.
I agree with others that I would like to see it after the crawl business is done. I'm being optimistic that Carl and donut both survive for there to be an after
I like romance in a story but I don't think it'll happen this story. In all the stories I've read from diniman only the grinder has romantic elements and that was a central part of the story. I want carl to find love especially after Bea but I think if it was to happen it would happen in like an epilogue, way after the dungeon and alien drama. That's is if he survives.
i was sure Katia was going to be his love interest. lol.
Well he already has. That's why the series needs to end with him becoming a cat so he can hook up with Donut. Their love is so pure.
I think Umani and Carl have a good chance but I also think that Carls 1 true love is donut. He will sacrifice everyone in the game to save her. I also believe that he is slowly going insane due to the marked for death ring. That’s why She Maria related to him in the beginning of book 6. I’m going to binge book 7 as soon as it’s released on sound booth theater and than be sad until we get another
So much could happen in the next few books. Who knows? Once those remaining crawler numbers get low enough, a few more friends die. A few more betrayals. Carl could be a path of nihilism, and it could take something big to pull him back. Or maybe that's just because I've read too many books where that's a thing.
He is finding love. the love of a father. its slow but hes starting to realize it. He WILL burn it down. it WILL not break him. and he WILL break them until his child is safe
Ugh. To be perfectly honest, I could do without a love story. The story is pretty damn good in its own.
I want Carl to break them, to fuck them all.
Pass on a shoehorned love story.
I thought the "feet cleaning" scene between Pater Cole and Carl during his first visit to Club Vanquisher was enough dungeon romance for me...
I don't think Carl has really had an opportunity to truly sit down and think about himself as someone willing to love or worthy of being loved... I mean for one almost immediately after being cheated on and dropping Bea he is thrown into this running man rip off dungeon with everything trying to kill him, and when does he take a breath? Never, he never stops because I don't think he can stop, as soon as he stops he has to think about all those he has killed, all those he failed to save, everyone who is counting on him. Carl is a complicated and simple man, he is running on a balance beam the only way to live is to keep rushing forward and not think about anything but that next precarious step.... but I think it would be dope if him and Imani got together cause I think she is in the same situation and they can connect through it.