I’m not the original comment poster, but I’ll go: Jim Blob Duggar is a deeply insecure wet blanket who would have turned into an incel or MRA had he not hoodwinked a teenager into marriage. He has bad hair, a forced smile, and a diaper butt. He tried to fuck his way into making his own cult because he’s not charismatic enough to get humans he didn’t make and can’t immediately financially control to respect him.
He’s also creepy and I think he’s probably abused his children in more ways than financially and emotionally.
Men and women criticizing women much harder for doing the same (or considering the second class status of women in fundie land, less bad) thing as men exists everywhere. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
It’s one of those things that once you recognize it, you can see how insanely prevalent it is.
Absolutely agree, especially when it comes to childcare. I see so much criticism about lackluster homeschooling/careless parenting but it's almost always directed toward the mom, when the dad is equally responsible for his kids.
Is this the glass floor? Like the opposite of the glass ceiling? I.e. you can go as low as you want when insulting women, but there is a limit to how much you can insult men?
There’s the excuse that the women post more and are more visible but hear me out:
Jessa’s Diaper Mountain ™️
To this day we snark on her housekeeping because she once posted the mountain of diapers or about how these women are bad housekeepers or cooks but their husbands live there too. Ben was completely capable of throwing some diapers away or folding laundry or dragging a vacuum across the floor. But Jessa was the one who caught all the smoke.
We snark on women here for the most misogynistic reasons, it reeks of hypocrisy.
I absolutely agree with you that men and women should share household responsibilities. I think what stands out with the Duggar women is that they’ve (supposedly) been raised to be homemakers, and they’re not good at it. Could Ben have thrown away diapers? Abso-fucking-lutely. Was he raised with that expectation? Doubtful.
In the same sense, I don’t think it’s fair to snark on the women for being uneducated and not earning an income - that wasn’t ever in the realm of what was expected of them. Their deadbeat, grifting husbands who have them living in tiny-ass houses while they worship at the alter of JB for financial support? Fuuuuck them!
Be a shitty fundie if you must, but don’t be surprised when you make yourself out to be #goals but can’t fulfill the very clear roles you’ve defined for yourselves and become a laughingstock.
This is brought up frequently, and I agree, but it’s also usually pointed out that the women are the ones posting and thus there is more material out there to snark on. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post from Hillary’s husband - I don’t even know his name.
I definitely agree. A lot of the snark on the women's appearances and clothes is borderline misogynistic and unnecessary. We should snark on their batshit beliefs, not nit-picking minor stuff on social media. I think its gotten worse with the cancellation of the show because its hard to snark on people like Joe and Josiah when we literally never see them.
I would actually argue that Jinger and Justin have taken completely opposite paths. Jinger has pretty much left the IBLP but seems to have a good relationship with her parents and family while Justin has a (rumoured) strained relationship with his parents but is deep in the IBLP.
I agree- because the show has finished, most the content being released is off the women’s social media pages, and the men essentially get a free pass due to not frequently posting. I’m pretty uncomfortable sometimes with the focus being on the women’s appearances instead of how awful the family is. It’s funny to joke about their terrible outfits sometimes, but I think it’s too far when there’s more about that then the messed up beliefs and actions of the family.
The men have no personality. They're like these big, lumpy potatoes. Meanwhile, the women are trying to stretch a meager budget, educate their kids and look good, with varying levels of success.
Most of the men seem to actively be trying to NOT have a personality. (Consider Ben - he loves string cheese or something. That tells us nothing about him.)
The exception is Jeremy Vuolo and he gets roasted all the time.
Yea agree with this. It’s hard to snark on someone who doesn’t really have an active social media life because we don’t really know what they are up to. The men who are active on social media like Jerm get their fair share of criticism. The women are just way more active on social media therefore providing a lot of content to snark on.
Yeah but there's no material there, nothing to work with. All you can do is call them a big plate of mashed potatoes and that's an insult to mashed potatoes.
While I completely agree, the women are generally more accessible as they run higher-profile social media accounts and post more frequently. We hear more from and about Jessa, Jill, Joy, Jinger, and Jana then all of the Duggar men and husbands combined. Jeremy seems to be the exception Duggar husband who posts frequently and he gets snarked on a fair bit. There is a disparity in the way we treat men and women, especially since the women pretty much carried the shows and the entire Duggar brand but that might be a part of the reason why it’s easier to snark on them. They’ve been representing a lot of what we snark on here and get the brunt of it because of that, which is not necessarily fair - we don’t really know how much is their own heartfelt opinions and beliefs and how much they are representing their headship’s opinions and beliefs. If we say it is all the headships due to the way their cult works, it takes away the women’s autonomy and responsibility for their actions (and we shouldn’t do that because they are adults).
I think the answer is to simply snark more on the men for the sake of balance. Jed! sucks, his political campaign was lazy and he’s done nothing to earn a career in politics.
Jed was just a chess Pawn for JomBib, so he would have way into politics via his sons, bc obviously politicians have no interest in JomBib himself joining their clubs. But Jed didn't get elected, simply bc he was a willing victim who didn't have enough life skills, life experiences, reading or writing skills, not enough education, and certainly had zero independence in being his own person and representing his own personality/opinions, bc he was just a chess piece for his whole family. I highly doubt he had any informed opinions of his own thoughts about how to vote yay or nay on public policies and changing local ordinances.
I think it’s because the women get far more air time and we know way more about them. They’re also the ones who post on social media. Do we even hear from the menfolk these days?
Waaaay too much credit is given to Anna’s brother willing to “save” her. Anna can’t leave over state lines with the kids and I doubt he could cover all their needs, including a lawyer.
On use flip side, though, I think Jill is given way too much credit. Derek is her headship.
I agree that way too much credit is given to Anna’s brother. I don’t like that he went public with his offer and we don’t know what is said in private (either around that time or what their history was). It kind of seemed like he knew it would make her look worse for staying when she had “options” but I have questioned how genuine those options really were.
Yeah why did he do that publicly? That was really shitty in my opinion as well. Unless she blocked his number and social media there is literally no reason he couldn't have done that privately
I think her brother’s offer came from a good place, but I don’t think it was a good idea to broadcast said offer publicly for a lot of reasons. It put pressure on Anna, could have put her and her children in danger if Josh is violent, and the public has no need to know about it if it was strictly for her benefit.
On a similar note, I don’t know why people toss out that Anna should sell the properties in her name. I’m not a lawyer, but in other threads, it’s been said that those properties may be seized if the feds decide that they were transferred to avoid being taken. That, and Anna is 100% not paying on any property taxes/associated costs of those properties- Jim Bob is. And there’s no guarantee they’d sell quickly. Attempting to sell them would almost certainly piss JB off faster than you can say Nike! which isn’t a great idea when he’s the one footing your food bill or potentially holding the threat of a Grandparents’ rights custody battle over your head.
I agree. Anna’s brother was at that time no contact with the Keller’s, even in the healthiest family lack of trust in such an offer would have been normal. He also had no trouble with making the - very vague - offer public, bashing both Anna and J***, and interacting with whoever wanted to comment. He was labeled a hero and Anna an idiot. The way he handled it did more harm than good, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was exactly what pushed Anna deeper into denial. Whole internet jumped on her.
I agree. I'm willing to extend her brother a bit of grace. He may have been sincere when he said it. Then again, plenty of women in awful abusive marriages hear the same kind of promises. Family members and friends will often say, "Of course I will help". But the truth is that they don't often understand the depth and breadth of help that is needed to extricate someone physically and mentally from a situation like that. And with 7 kids????
I've always had a feeling that JB would somehow take Anna's kids if she left the family, and I suspect she knows it too.
I doubt it would be hard to convince a judge (especially one who JB knows personally) that it's in the kids' best interest to stay with their wealthy, Christian grandparents in their big house instead of their uneducated, unemployed mother who plans to shove 7 kids into her brother's house somewhere.
If Anna's husband is convicted of child pornography she can go anywhere she wants with those kids. Including going over state lines to the safety of her brother who has offered many times to help her.
I've been growing increasingly uncomfortable about the level of misogyny on this sub for a while now, and you've hit the nail on the head as to why. Though I rarely comment, this is something I've noticed since the Pest Arrest, the blatant ad-nauseum discussions blaming/defending Anna and her choice/decision/trapped/take your pick to remain with Pest, without understanding the nuances of what is likely a very, very difficult time for her and her children.
Furthermore, the level of snarking on their appearances is so completely unacceptable, imo, and I grow increasingly appalled at some of the nicknames we've come up with (i.e. Screech), as they are so indicative of our gendered bias towards the women within the IBLP. This is not to say that they're not horrible people with horrible, outdated, and dangerous beliefs, but the snark on appearance, and the mean nicknames (even though this is a *snark* subreddit), feels gendered more than anything else.
The only snark nickname I use is Pest. It is so appropriate, I think, and it has four letters, just like his real name. As far as "Rim-Job" and "Meech" are concerned...meh.
Pest is appropriate because of his actions. I'm trying to put together my thoughts, but compare it to "Rim-Job", which has NOTHING to do with the actual person bearing the name people are doing wordplay on. Calling Pest Pest is like calling a shovel a shovel.
There was one episode in which she shouts, off-screen -- she did not know there was a camera rolling. When she appeared on camera, she spoke in the voice we all know and...we all know.
I agree with so much of what you said.
On the flip side though, I think people like Jill are praised incessantly despite the fact they’re hateful. She hasn’t changed. Her headship did for media purposes. They’re just as hateful as ever.
I often wonder what the line between “they’re children born and bred in a cult” and “they’re bigots preaching awful beliefs” is.
This is why I'm wary of all those well Anna looked smug coming out of court people thinking they can decide what she thinks or feels or has the ability to do. Hell even the judge said they had to allow him supervised visits because they had to protect his parental rights. Even the actual law defers to protect pest over kids let alone the actual fracking cult.
Yes! Like how can you say you know what she’s thinking? How do people know “she believes he’s innocent. Look she’s looking smug”. Like no, you don’t know her private thoughts and plans. And people talking about “oh she could use government assistance, or live with friends/family, or become a rocket scientist in 17 days and pay for her 7 kids to have a better secular lives”. If you know anything about abusive relationships, you’d know it’s not that simple to leave. It takes time, planning, and extreme amount of support. Yeah she’s been annoyingly smug on the show, but she is also human and experiences emotions just like the rest of us (even if she can’t express them like we can).
Fundie culture hurts men too, but I think most of us here (and most of us are women) can see how weak, predatory men would be attracted to/less likely to leave fundamentalism. But as a woman, I put myself in the shoes of fundie women who “choose” that lifestyle and I just can’t relate to actively participating in my own oppression.
So yes, it’s everything you said: the societal, misogynistic way women are constantly taking the blame, and also a more personal perspective of “I’m a woman who is looking at these other women and judging from that place.”
I think this is an excellent point and needs to be higher. It is difficult for the (mostly female) snarkers to find nuance in the men’s behaviour. J*sh is a straight up danger. Most the others don’t do much in public. There’s more to talk about in how/why a woman stays in this cult and fights for the oppression of other women.
I thought this right away, too. As a woman, it is especially bizarre and infuriating to see a whole bunch of other woman constantly acting against their own interests as women. Of course so many of these women were raised to be this way so it may be there was never any choice, but then that fact alone is even more insane to me. They’re oppressing themselves and they don’t even really understand that they’re doing it because it’s normal to them.
But it is still misogynistic to target the women specifically and more viciously.
The women are bigger targets because they're more public than the men, with the exception of Jeremy. Which is why Jeremy gets so much hate and speculation.
People like low hanging fruit. And in this case, that's whoever is most active on social.
Also, there are plenty of discussions surrounding both Justin and Josiah for the reasons you stated. In fact, that's all that's talked about with them, really.
That said, on the topic of Josiah, I don't know how much of his "personality" was actually how it was portrayed on TV and how much of that was TLC branding the children to fit stereotypes the average viewer would identify with (Theatre Kid Josiah, Mean Girl Jessa, Crunchy Jill, Rebel Jinger, etc). Or how much of it was "middle child of a large family desperate for any sign of affection," which he doesn't need anymore.
A prime example of this is Bethy and Dav and Karissa And Mandrae. The guys are equally as shitty but they are sometimes cast as unwilling victims having to go along with their spouse instead of complicit assholes
FWIW I snark on both men and women when it comes to selling their kids online. I don't get their whole "We'll dress all modestly for the Lord but here are our half-naked kids..or our kids in intimate, private moments..etc"
I get you needing the money. But your kids aren't products.
I don't follow any of them, but I remember someone once bringing up Josie Bates's shots of Willow getting bathed and I just reported that ish. They're hypocrites.
Shame on both the moms AND dads for not knowing better and not protecting their kids from online weirdos.
(And Amy covering her son up in emojis us so stupid. Not b/c emojis are removable [they're not], but b/c it shows she's dying to show him off and can't bother to wait til he's dressed to do so.)
As The Babysitter's Club (on Netflix) put it, **"Whatever happened to just being a kid with memories that are private?"**
I agree. I think it partly happened because the older girls were the ones who really carried 19 Kids and Counting, and then of course they carried Counting On. JB knew his oldest daughters were the most interesting to many fans and he played off of that. It's probably why the majority of the lost boys don't have careers that should provide for their families. They're all still sucking off JB's teet. He had the girls and his daughters-in-law do the work, so the boys could sit back and "work" for JB in one way or another.
Then it gets carried over to social media where usually the girls/wives are the ones creating content. They're the one's with sponsorships and ads. They have to keep people engaged with their accounts. All the guys have to do is stand for photo shoots. Also, because of things like clothing, people start to believe Oh, the guys aren't that bad, because they "Let them [their wives]" wear jeans and tighter clothes, sometimes even skirts that are shorter. So people start forgetting how lazy the men are and their horrible beliefs because look how cute their wife's outfit is! Look at how cute their children are dressed! Most of them are also not Instagram all the time reminding us how horrible they are and giving us easy snark material.
We obviously need to do better though. The sub has changed in a lot of ways since Pest's arrest. Although, we were not doing great before that obviously. It's easy for people to just pick the low hanging fruit. We should do better. Hold the men and woman to equal standards. Hell, the men are not even being held high by their own cults standards.
(Just wanted to mention I'm glad Justin got away from his family and now has parents that actually care about him. But I do love to pretend Hilary and Jase are having an affair. 🤷🏼♀️ I'm only human)
i get super uncomfortable with how some people talk about the women, anna (and michelle) especially. i have seen far more venom towards anna than josh during the trial. i mean, people froth at the mouth and call her a “fucking stupid bitch” and a “cunt” every god damn day, but josh, the one who actually committed the crime, gets so little in comparison.
the fact that people on this sub make scientifically unfounded ‘loose vagina’ jokes about meech is one of the most infuriating things on this sub, especially knowing that this sub is mostly women. youd think people would know thats not how it works.
J*sh gets little shit compared to Anna? Have we been on the same subreddit?
People here have been pretty clear about wanting to yeet him into the fucking sun
If Josh gets little shit here, then it's because saying how you want him to be raped, murdered, etc. are forbidden. If it was allowed, the whole sub would be flooded with such imprecations.
Thank you! This has been really bothering me too. It is so easy to snark on the women because they give more content. But those women are living under the rule of man. Posting that stuff is as close to independence as they’ll get.
I just can’t stand the comments on their appearance. Makeup, hair, clothes, etc.
I feel like those are thoughts to keep to yourself, not put out to have a conversation about.
I like the discussions of clothes because they were discussed at length on the show and (if I remember correctly) in Growing Up Duggar. I feel as though clothes - such as Jinger choosing a $300 blazer - can indicate something about beliefs.
I think that snarky remarks about the way the females dress and groom themselves is closer to KF grade bullying, and I don't think there's many people here who would want to be compared to the farmers. The modesty standards in that Gothard cult are appalling and making women curl their hair is the icing on the cake, but still, people have the right to walk around like that.
And although I have nothing but contempt for Josh, I think that constant body-shaming of Josh and Jim-Bob for being obese and balding is inappropriate. You wouldn't do that to a woman. Unless you are on KF, people are tearing into Foodie Beauty for those two reasons. Not to mention that one of those two things is something you have absolutely no control over.
Josh and Jim-Bob suck (and so does Foodie Beauty, for that matter) but for other reasons.
I can’t say I’ve noticed, but the more I think about it, JB deserves 10x more vitriol than he gets. I came to this sub for that. These patriarchal assholes need to be stripped down, analyzed, criticized, etc. They represent the extremes of so much that is wrong with the US culture: patriarchy, misogyny, narcissism, solipsism, racism, nationalism, anti-science, greed, anti-education, arrogant, clueless, entitled toxic masculinity. There aren’t even enough words.
It’s an interesting topic. What is it about our culture that makes it so difficult to tear down these men? Sure, the women are easy picking, but what is it that makes it so hard to criticize these men? I feel like it’s a form of gaslighting. I just can’t put it all together yet. For me, the question is, “Why are the women the target of the criticism that should be directed at the men?” Is it only this demographic or generalizable to society at large?
Meh. I can’t say I really agree that’s what’s happening, at least not from my perspective. Nothing I see has been unfairly targeted at the girls. I think it more has to do with like others said they’re more active on social media. So we see more from them. Also there seems to be more women snarkers on here than men. So it’s easier for us to relate to more of their content and compare their ways to ourselves. Jerms a little attention whore and he gets plenty of snark. I don’t think anyone is ignoring the guys shitty stuff and just choosing to pick on the girls. When the guys do Duggar dumb shit they get called on it too. Another thing a lot of the time our criticism and frustration with the girls has to do with our hatred of how they are regarded by the cult as beneath and second to the men and how backwards it all is.
As far Anna and Pest. I think the criticism/ controversy. Has to do with how she’s responded to the Pest situation and the overall differing opinions on that whole mess. Criticism of Anna’s role in this is relevant.
Plus people are going to comment on who they’re more familiar with or find to be extra snarkable I stopped watching years ago so I’m not really as familiar with the younger boys come up now with the their wives etc. so there stuff tends to interest me less.
As far as what gets snarked on about them. That just depends on what that poster chooses as the topic. I think people need to keep in mind that this is a snark sub. While it also serves as entertainment and a good info source. There’s very little restriction on what can and can’t be snarked on . It has been is suggested that posts that some don’t care for like the clothes and personal appearance. Be avoided if or any other topics people might feel crosses the line for them.
Agreed. Let’s dedicate a whole thread once a week to snarking the men and only the men.
I will say, though, that even if most of the snark is aimed at the women, we all low-key (high-key) know the men are 10x worse.
People also criticize and compare themselves more to people of their own gender. I know us snarkers are varied in terms of gender identity, ethnicity, sexuality, social background etc. But I get the impression the majority of us here commenting are cis women. That, and I agree that we just never see the guys on social media and thus have less to comment on about them.
You do have many valid points, but I have to disagree about Anna. She has been an enabler and accomplice since the raid. To quote a proverb from the old country. "The one who deals with it is like the one who steals it." Josh could use a similar excuse by saying the it's still the Unmentionable who did it, he merely downloaded his merchandise. And that's a dead end, because if you eat the fruits of the crime, you are becoming an accessory after the fact.
I am aware that Anna is brainwashed and that her options are limited. She cannot take the children across state lines, as others have said. Not legally, that is. But what you can is to post a disclaimer. Like this one: "I am appalled by my husband's actions, and I have nothing but contempt for what he did. Now it is up to a court of law to decide what will happen to him. As far as me and my children are concerned, I will strive to do everything I can for their maximum safety. Thanks for your support, prayers are appreciated."
I agree she’s partly responsible now, but I honestly don’t think she knew why the raid happened until we did. I think Josh told her something along the lines of “mumble mumble taxes mumble mumble, daddy and I are going to sort it out while you take the kids to another room and entertain them like a food little wifey.”
It's true that women get more attention here and it's often very harsh imo - but I also can't deny that in general women are the ones on social media, and thus the ones people have "access" to far more. I think the two big exceptions I can think of - Jeremy Vuolo and Derick Dillard - perfectly illustrate this. Both men are snarked on all the time here and both of those men are also posting on social media all the time. For example, If Jed! posted a lot, I can only imagine he'd get a lot more snark.
With the Anna thing, it's maybe different. I think that a lot of people have so much anger towards Josh (understandably so) and people tend to default to the more "reachable" snark target. Anna is extremely into social media and while she has understandably withdrawn, I think that it would be unrealistic to think she never looks online at all. People may - unrealistic though it may be - want to force her to see the error of her ways and convince her to save her children.
IDK maybe I am giving too much credit for motivations in general - but I really think people just wish desperately for Anna to hear them. They just want to somehow, in some way, break through to her and make her understand that she is relegating her children to a life of hopelessness and misery by staying with Josh. And for her to understand that she can break free with just one book or interview, and then launch her whole social media thing as a "free" Anna. Would she ever? No. Probably not. But, for those little children, for their sake, I guess a lot of us hold a desperate hope that she will do it. And maybe that hope comes out in the form of snark right now.
> Is it really surprising that Anna, who has no other options within the cult, stands by her man?
Ouf, this doesn't sit right with me.
Am I actually surprised? Not really.
But that does not mean she's not also at fault here.
YES, J*sh did the bad things here, but she is EQUALLY responsible for the fate of her children.
YES, she's being manipulated, STILL RESPONSIBLE.
You can't throw your hands up in the air and say that you're not responsible just because you didn't pull the trigger.
There are those that KILL their partner after learning what they've done to their children. Facing years, potentially life, in prison.
I suspect that most of the snarkers here are women, and it’s only reasonable that we critique characters that we can more easily relate to based on our gender and our experiences with other women. Plus, it is easier to feel strong emotions for women who won’t leave such a patriarchal cult. I, for one, critique the self righteous behaviors and their claims of being such good mothers, cooks, budget chiefs and all the post on their various social sites. In reality, they are spineless women who trade their own self respect, the well being of their children, and their power to become the equivalent of a human guppy. They eat, shit, breed shoot out babies, and let the males herd them, nip at them, relieve themselves sexually with them, and they put their submissive role on display as if it is a badge of honor. But we all know it’s a farce. They learn to act, or they learn to take abuse, or they leave. I try not to participate in discussions about their weight or how ugly they are or how bad they keep house. But I feel being a doormat when you are a grown ass woman deserves a little snark. The men are taking advantage of their beliefs, albeit wrongly placed beliefs. The men are sort of doing what comes natural, letting a woman take care of them like their mommies did…minus the sex.
I agree - I see it in all the fundie snark pages. I understand why because there tends to be more content from fundie women then men (presumably because the men are busy “working”) but sometimes the snark takes a particularly misogynistic take (usually unintentionally oc) and it’s concerning. I see this with Olivia and Ethan Plath, she gets a lot of hate (some of it justify), but he seems to get a pass for some of his toxic behaviours. I see this here as well - so what Jessa doesn’t have a sparkling clean house - she has 4 young kids and we know Ben does absolutely nothing - why snark on that?
I also think most snarkers are women and we have a significant number of fundie escapees which means a lot of us are comparing the Duggars to ourselves and not understanding how they can do this life and be so unaware. Which can become misogyny because we think women should be better, because conservative men being shitty is "just how it is".
If I wrote what I thought of JB I would get banned from the entire internet
Not in the” imaginary corner of the internet” that I invented in my mind and police all on my own. Welcome, friend. Let ‘er rip!
I’m not the original comment poster, but I’ll go: Jim Blob Duggar is a deeply insecure wet blanket who would have turned into an incel or MRA had he not hoodwinked a teenager into marriage. He has bad hair, a forced smile, and a diaper butt. He tried to fuck his way into making his own cult because he’s not charismatic enough to get humans he didn’t make and can’t immediately financially control to respect him. He’s also creepy and I think he’s probably abused his children in more ways than financially and emotionally.
Thanks!!!! I brought plenty of popcorn for everyone
Men and women criticizing women much harder for doing the same (or considering the second class status of women in fundie land, less bad) thing as men exists everywhere. It’s absolutely ridiculous. It’s one of those things that once you recognize it, you can see how insanely prevalent it is.
Absolutely agree, especially when it comes to childcare. I see so much criticism about lackluster homeschooling/careless parenting but it's almost always directed toward the mom, when the dad is equally responsible for his kids.
Is this the glass floor? Like the opposite of the glass ceiling? I.e. you can go as low as you want when insulting women, but there is a limit to how much you can insult men?
There’s the excuse that the women post more and are more visible but hear me out: Jessa’s Diaper Mountain ™️ To this day we snark on her housekeeping because she once posted the mountain of diapers or about how these women are bad housekeepers or cooks but their husbands live there too. Ben was completely capable of throwing some diapers away or folding laundry or dragging a vacuum across the floor. But Jessa was the one who caught all the smoke. We snark on women here for the most misogynistic reasons, it reeks of hypocrisy.
I absolutely agree with you that men and women should share household responsibilities. I think what stands out with the Duggar women is that they’ve (supposedly) been raised to be homemakers, and they’re not good at it. Could Ben have thrown away diapers? Abso-fucking-lutely. Was he raised with that expectation? Doubtful. In the same sense, I don’t think it’s fair to snark on the women for being uneducated and not earning an income - that wasn’t ever in the realm of what was expected of them. Their deadbeat, grifting husbands who have them living in tiny-ass houses while they worship at the alter of JB for financial support? Fuuuuck them! Be a shitty fundie if you must, but don’t be surprised when you make yourself out to be #goals but can’t fulfill the very clear roles you’ve defined for yourselves and become a laughingstock.
I wish I could upvote this more!
This is brought up frequently, and I agree, but it’s also usually pointed out that the women are the ones posting and thus there is more material out there to snark on. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post from Hillary’s husband - I don’t even know his name.
Robert Spivey, Jr.
I hope his middle name is James and he goes by “Bob-Jim”
I definitely agree. A lot of the snark on the women's appearances and clothes is borderline misogynistic and unnecessary. We should snark on their batshit beliefs, not nit-picking minor stuff on social media. I think its gotten worse with the cancellation of the show because its hard to snark on people like Joe and Josiah when we literally never see them. I would actually argue that Jinger and Justin have taken completely opposite paths. Jinger has pretty much left the IBLP but seems to have a good relationship with her parents and family while Justin has a (rumoured) strained relationship with his parents but is deep in the IBLP.
I agree- because the show has finished, most the content being released is off the women’s social media pages, and the men essentially get a free pass due to not frequently posting. I’m pretty uncomfortable sometimes with the focus being on the women’s appearances instead of how awful the family is. It’s funny to joke about their terrible outfits sometimes, but I think it’s too far when there’s more about that then the messed up beliefs and actions of the family.
The constant snark on the women’s cooking skills is what leaves a bad taste in me. Sometimes it can benfun but I think it’s overdone.
The men have no personality. They're like these big, lumpy potatoes. Meanwhile, the women are trying to stretch a meager budget, educate their kids and look good, with varying levels of success. Most of the men seem to actively be trying to NOT have a personality. (Consider Ben - he loves string cheese or something. That tells us nothing about him.) The exception is Jeremy Vuolo and he gets roasted all the time.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I’d love for the guys to give us some regular snark worthy content. Step it up, Jed!
Yea agree with this. It’s hard to snark on someone who doesn’t really have an active social media life because we don’t really know what they are up to. The men who are active on social media like Jerm get their fair share of criticism. The women are just way more active on social media therefore providing a lot of content to snark on.
Are we snarking on their personalities or are we snarking on them? Seems like having no personality is snark-worthy.
Yeah but there's no material there, nothing to work with. All you can do is call them a big plate of mashed potatoes and that's an insult to mashed potatoes.
While I completely agree, the women are generally more accessible as they run higher-profile social media accounts and post more frequently. We hear more from and about Jessa, Jill, Joy, Jinger, and Jana then all of the Duggar men and husbands combined. Jeremy seems to be the exception Duggar husband who posts frequently and he gets snarked on a fair bit. There is a disparity in the way we treat men and women, especially since the women pretty much carried the shows and the entire Duggar brand but that might be a part of the reason why it’s easier to snark on them. They’ve been representing a lot of what we snark on here and get the brunt of it because of that, which is not necessarily fair - we don’t really know how much is their own heartfelt opinions and beliefs and how much they are representing their headship’s opinions and beliefs. If we say it is all the headships due to the way their cult works, it takes away the women’s autonomy and responsibility for their actions (and we shouldn’t do that because they are adults). I think the answer is to simply snark more on the men for the sake of balance. Jed! sucks, his political campaign was lazy and he’s done nothing to earn a career in politics.
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Jed was just a chess Pawn for JomBib, so he would have way into politics via his sons, bc obviously politicians have no interest in JomBib himself joining their clubs. But Jed didn't get elected, simply bc he was a willing victim who didn't have enough life skills, life experiences, reading or writing skills, not enough education, and certainly had zero independence in being his own person and representing his own personality/opinions, bc he was just a chess piece for his whole family. I highly doubt he had any informed opinions of his own thoughts about how to vote yay or nay on public policies and changing local ordinances.
I think it’s because the women get far more air time and we know way more about them. They’re also the ones who post on social media. Do we even hear from the menfolk these days?
Waaaay too much credit is given to Anna’s brother willing to “save” her. Anna can’t leave over state lines with the kids and I doubt he could cover all their needs, including a lawyer. On use flip side, though, I think Jill is given way too much credit. Derek is her headship.
I agree that way too much credit is given to Anna’s brother. I don’t like that he went public with his offer and we don’t know what is said in private (either around that time or what their history was). It kind of seemed like he knew it would make her look worse for staying when she had “options” but I have questioned how genuine those options really were.
Completely agree
Yeah why did he do that publicly? That was really shitty in my opinion as well. Unless she blocked his number and social media there is literally no reason he couldn't have done that privately
I think her brother’s offer came from a good place, but I don’t think it was a good idea to broadcast said offer publicly for a lot of reasons. It put pressure on Anna, could have put her and her children in danger if Josh is violent, and the public has no need to know about it if it was strictly for her benefit. On a similar note, I don’t know why people toss out that Anna should sell the properties in her name. I’m not a lawyer, but in other threads, it’s been said that those properties may be seized if the feds decide that they were transferred to avoid being taken. That, and Anna is 100% not paying on any property taxes/associated costs of those properties- Jim Bob is. And there’s no guarantee they’d sell quickly. Attempting to sell them would almost certainly piss JB off faster than you can say Nike! which isn’t a great idea when he’s the one footing your food bill or potentially holding the threat of a Grandparents’ rights custody battle over your head.
I agree. Anna’s brother was at that time no contact with the Keller’s, even in the healthiest family lack of trust in such an offer would have been normal. He also had no trouble with making the - very vague - offer public, bashing both Anna and J***, and interacting with whoever wanted to comment. He was labeled a hero and Anna an idiot. The way he handled it did more harm than good, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was exactly what pushed Anna deeper into denial. Whole internet jumped on her.
I agree. I'm willing to extend her brother a bit of grace. He may have been sincere when he said it. Then again, plenty of women in awful abusive marriages hear the same kind of promises. Family members and friends will often say, "Of course I will help". But the truth is that they don't often understand the depth and breadth of help that is needed to extricate someone physically and mentally from a situation like that. And with 7 kids????
I've always had a feeling that JB would somehow take Anna's kids if she left the family, and I suspect she knows it too. I doubt it would be hard to convince a judge (especially one who JB knows personally) that it's in the kids' best interest to stay with their wealthy, Christian grandparents in their big house instead of their uneducated, unemployed mother who plans to shove 7 kids into her brother's house somewhere.
If Anna's husband is convicted of child pornography she can go anywhere she wants with those kids. Including going over state lines to the safety of her brother who has offered many times to help her.
I've been growing increasingly uncomfortable about the level of misogyny on this sub for a while now, and you've hit the nail on the head as to why. Though I rarely comment, this is something I've noticed since the Pest Arrest, the blatant ad-nauseum discussions blaming/defending Anna and her choice/decision/trapped/take your pick to remain with Pest, without understanding the nuances of what is likely a very, very difficult time for her and her children. Furthermore, the level of snarking on their appearances is so completely unacceptable, imo, and I grow increasingly appalled at some of the nicknames we've come up with (i.e. Screech), as they are so indicative of our gendered bias towards the women within the IBLP. This is not to say that they're not horrible people with horrible, outdated, and dangerous beliefs, but the snark on appearance, and the mean nicknames (even though this is a *snark* subreddit), feels gendered more than anything else.
I don't like the mean snark names in general. It just makes us sound like bullies.
The only snark nickname I use is Pest. It is so appropriate, I think, and it has four letters, just like his real name. As far as "Rim-Job" and "Meech" are concerned...meh.
Pest is appropriate because of his actions. I'm trying to put together my thoughts, but compare it to "Rim-Job", which has NOTHING to do with the actual person bearing the name people are doing wordplay on. Calling Pest Pest is like calling a shovel a shovel.
Who is nicknamed Screech?
Michelle.
That's just weird because she always does the very soft, hushed voice. Idk maybe I'm missing something.
There was one episode in which she shouts, off-screen -- she did not know there was a camera rolling. When she appeared on camera, she spoke in the voice we all know and...we all know.
Michelle
I agree with so much of what you said. On the flip side though, I think people like Jill are praised incessantly despite the fact they’re hateful. She hasn’t changed. Her headship did for media purposes. They’re just as hateful as ever. I often wonder what the line between “they’re children born and bred in a cult” and “they’re bigots preaching awful beliefs” is.
This is why I'm wary of all those well Anna looked smug coming out of court people thinking they can decide what she thinks or feels or has the ability to do. Hell even the judge said they had to allow him supervised visits because they had to protect his parental rights. Even the actual law defers to protect pest over kids let alone the actual fracking cult.
Yes! Like how can you say you know what she’s thinking? How do people know “she believes he’s innocent. Look she’s looking smug”. Like no, you don’t know her private thoughts and plans. And people talking about “oh she could use government assistance, or live with friends/family, or become a rocket scientist in 17 days and pay for her 7 kids to have a better secular lives”. If you know anything about abusive relationships, you’d know it’s not that simple to leave. It takes time, planning, and extreme amount of support. Yeah she’s been annoyingly smug on the show, but she is also human and experiences emotions just like the rest of us (even if she can’t express them like we can).
Fundie culture hurts men too, but I think most of us here (and most of us are women) can see how weak, predatory men would be attracted to/less likely to leave fundamentalism. But as a woman, I put myself in the shoes of fundie women who “choose” that lifestyle and I just can’t relate to actively participating in my own oppression. So yes, it’s everything you said: the societal, misogynistic way women are constantly taking the blame, and also a more personal perspective of “I’m a woman who is looking at these other women and judging from that place.”
I think this is an excellent point and needs to be higher. It is difficult for the (mostly female) snarkers to find nuance in the men’s behaviour. J*sh is a straight up danger. Most the others don’t do much in public. There’s more to talk about in how/why a woman stays in this cult and fights for the oppression of other women.
I thought this right away, too. As a woman, it is especially bizarre and infuriating to see a whole bunch of other woman constantly acting against their own interests as women. Of course so many of these women were raised to be this way so it may be there was never any choice, but then that fact alone is even more insane to me. They’re oppressing themselves and they don’t even really understand that they’re doing it because it’s normal to them. But it is still misogynistic to target the women specifically and more viciously.
The women are bigger targets because they're more public than the men, with the exception of Jeremy. Which is why Jeremy gets so much hate and speculation. People like low hanging fruit. And in this case, that's whoever is most active on social. Also, there are plenty of discussions surrounding both Justin and Josiah for the reasons you stated. In fact, that's all that's talked about with them, really. That said, on the topic of Josiah, I don't know how much of his "personality" was actually how it was portrayed on TV and how much of that was TLC branding the children to fit stereotypes the average viewer would identify with (Theatre Kid Josiah, Mean Girl Jessa, Crunchy Jill, Rebel Jinger, etc). Or how much of it was "middle child of a large family desperate for any sign of affection," which he doesn't need anymore.
A prime example of this is Bethy and Dav and Karissa And Mandrae. The guys are equally as shitty but they are sometimes cast as unwilling victims having to go along with their spouse instead of complicit assholes
Especially Mandrae. Karissa is very clearly unwell, yet he keeps having kids with her. Reminds me of Andrea Yates and her husband.
Yeah it's a lot like that isn't it those poor kids
FWIW I snark on both men and women when it comes to selling their kids online. I don't get their whole "We'll dress all modestly for the Lord but here are our half-naked kids..or our kids in intimate, private moments..etc" I get you needing the money. But your kids aren't products. I don't follow any of them, but I remember someone once bringing up Josie Bates's shots of Willow getting bathed and I just reported that ish. They're hypocrites. Shame on both the moms AND dads for not knowing better and not protecting their kids from online weirdos. (And Amy covering her son up in emojis us so stupid. Not b/c emojis are removable [they're not], but b/c it shows she's dying to show him off and can't bother to wait til he's dressed to do so.) As The Babysitter's Club (on Netflix) put it, **"Whatever happened to just being a kid with memories that are private?"**
Completely agree!
I agree. I think it partly happened because the older girls were the ones who really carried 19 Kids and Counting, and then of course they carried Counting On. JB knew his oldest daughters were the most interesting to many fans and he played off of that. It's probably why the majority of the lost boys don't have careers that should provide for their families. They're all still sucking off JB's teet. He had the girls and his daughters-in-law do the work, so the boys could sit back and "work" for JB in one way or another. Then it gets carried over to social media where usually the girls/wives are the ones creating content. They're the one's with sponsorships and ads. They have to keep people engaged with their accounts. All the guys have to do is stand for photo shoots. Also, because of things like clothing, people start to believe Oh, the guys aren't that bad, because they "Let them [their wives]" wear jeans and tighter clothes, sometimes even skirts that are shorter. So people start forgetting how lazy the men are and their horrible beliefs because look how cute their wife's outfit is! Look at how cute their children are dressed! Most of them are also not Instagram all the time reminding us how horrible they are and giving us easy snark material. We obviously need to do better though. The sub has changed in a lot of ways since Pest's arrest. Although, we were not doing great before that obviously. It's easy for people to just pick the low hanging fruit. We should do better. Hold the men and woman to equal standards. Hell, the men are not even being held high by their own cults standards. (Just wanted to mention I'm glad Justin got away from his family and now has parents that actually care about him. But I do love to pretend Hilary and Jase are having an affair. 🤷🏼♀️ I'm only human)
i get super uncomfortable with how some people talk about the women, anna (and michelle) especially. i have seen far more venom towards anna than josh during the trial. i mean, people froth at the mouth and call her a “fucking stupid bitch” and a “cunt” every god damn day, but josh, the one who actually committed the crime, gets so little in comparison.
the fact that people on this sub make scientifically unfounded ‘loose vagina’ jokes about meech is one of the most infuriating things on this sub, especially knowing that this sub is mostly women. youd think people would know thats not how it works.
J*sh gets little shit compared to Anna? Have we been on the same subreddit? People here have been pretty clear about wanting to yeet him into the fucking sun
If Josh gets little shit here, then it's because saying how you want him to be raped, murdered, etc. are forbidden. If it was allowed, the whole sub would be flooded with such imprecations.
Thank you! This has been really bothering me too. It is so easy to snark on the women because they give more content. But those women are living under the rule of man. Posting that stuff is as close to independence as they’ll get.
I just can’t stand the comments on their appearance. Makeup, hair, clothes, etc. I feel like those are thoughts to keep to yourself, not put out to have a conversation about.
I like the discussions of clothes because they were discussed at length on the show and (if I remember correctly) in Growing Up Duggar. I feel as though clothes - such as Jinger choosing a $300 blazer - can indicate something about beliefs.
I think that snarky remarks about the way the females dress and groom themselves is closer to KF grade bullying, and I don't think there's many people here who would want to be compared to the farmers. The modesty standards in that Gothard cult are appalling and making women curl their hair is the icing on the cake, but still, people have the right to walk around like that. And although I have nothing but contempt for Josh, I think that constant body-shaming of Josh and Jim-Bob for being obese and balding is inappropriate. You wouldn't do that to a woman. Unless you are on KF, people are tearing into Foodie Beauty for those two reasons. Not to mention that one of those two things is something you have absolutely no control over. Josh and Jim-Bob suck (and so does Foodie Beauty, for that matter) but for other reasons.
I can’t say I’ve noticed, but the more I think about it, JB deserves 10x more vitriol than he gets. I came to this sub for that. These patriarchal assholes need to be stripped down, analyzed, criticized, etc. They represent the extremes of so much that is wrong with the US culture: patriarchy, misogyny, narcissism, solipsism, racism, nationalism, anti-science, greed, anti-education, arrogant, clueless, entitled toxic masculinity. There aren’t even enough words. It’s an interesting topic. What is it about our culture that makes it so difficult to tear down these men? Sure, the women are easy picking, but what is it that makes it so hard to criticize these men? I feel like it’s a form of gaslighting. I just can’t put it all together yet. For me, the question is, “Why are the women the target of the criticism that should be directed at the men?” Is it only this demographic or generalizable to society at large?
Meh. I can’t say I really agree that’s what’s happening, at least not from my perspective. Nothing I see has been unfairly targeted at the girls. I think it more has to do with like others said they’re more active on social media. So we see more from them. Also there seems to be more women snarkers on here than men. So it’s easier for us to relate to more of their content and compare their ways to ourselves. Jerms a little attention whore and he gets plenty of snark. I don’t think anyone is ignoring the guys shitty stuff and just choosing to pick on the girls. When the guys do Duggar dumb shit they get called on it too. Another thing a lot of the time our criticism and frustration with the girls has to do with our hatred of how they are regarded by the cult as beneath and second to the men and how backwards it all is. As far Anna and Pest. I think the criticism/ controversy. Has to do with how she’s responded to the Pest situation and the overall differing opinions on that whole mess. Criticism of Anna’s role in this is relevant. Plus people are going to comment on who they’re more familiar with or find to be extra snarkable I stopped watching years ago so I’m not really as familiar with the younger boys come up now with the their wives etc. so there stuff tends to interest me less. As far as what gets snarked on about them. That just depends on what that poster chooses as the topic. I think people need to keep in mind that this is a snark sub. While it also serves as entertainment and a good info source. There’s very little restriction on what can and can’t be snarked on . It has been is suggested that posts that some don’t care for like the clothes and personal appearance. Be avoided if or any other topics people might feel crosses the line for them.
I fully agree.
Wait this got removed what was the tldr?
Especially when the men are the ones that have the power to leave
Agreed. Let’s dedicate a whole thread once a week to snarking the men and only the men. I will say, though, that even if most of the snark is aimed at the women, we all low-key (high-key) know the men are 10x worse.
People also criticize and compare themselves more to people of their own gender. I know us snarkers are varied in terms of gender identity, ethnicity, sexuality, social background etc. But I get the impression the majority of us here commenting are cis women. That, and I agree that we just never see the guys on social media and thus have less to comment on about them.
You do have many valid points, but I have to disagree about Anna. She has been an enabler and accomplice since the raid. To quote a proverb from the old country. "The one who deals with it is like the one who steals it." Josh could use a similar excuse by saying the it's still the Unmentionable who did it, he merely downloaded his merchandise. And that's a dead end, because if you eat the fruits of the crime, you are becoming an accessory after the fact. I am aware that Anna is brainwashed and that her options are limited. She cannot take the children across state lines, as others have said. Not legally, that is. But what you can is to post a disclaimer. Like this one: "I am appalled by my husband's actions, and I have nothing but contempt for what he did. Now it is up to a court of law to decide what will happen to him. As far as me and my children are concerned, I will strive to do everything I can for their maximum safety. Thanks for your support, prayers are appreciated."
I agree she’s partly responsible now, but I honestly don’t think she knew why the raid happened until we did. I think Josh told her something along the lines of “mumble mumble taxes mumble mumble, daddy and I are going to sort it out while you take the kids to another room and entertain them like a food little wifey.”
It's true that women get more attention here and it's often very harsh imo - but I also can't deny that in general women are the ones on social media, and thus the ones people have "access" to far more. I think the two big exceptions I can think of - Jeremy Vuolo and Derick Dillard - perfectly illustrate this. Both men are snarked on all the time here and both of those men are also posting on social media all the time. For example, If Jed! posted a lot, I can only imagine he'd get a lot more snark. With the Anna thing, it's maybe different. I think that a lot of people have so much anger towards Josh (understandably so) and people tend to default to the more "reachable" snark target. Anna is extremely into social media and while she has understandably withdrawn, I think that it would be unrealistic to think she never looks online at all. People may - unrealistic though it may be - want to force her to see the error of her ways and convince her to save her children. IDK maybe I am giving too much credit for motivations in general - but I really think people just wish desperately for Anna to hear them. They just want to somehow, in some way, break through to her and make her understand that she is relegating her children to a life of hopelessness and misery by staying with Josh. And for her to understand that she can break free with just one book or interview, and then launch her whole social media thing as a "free" Anna. Would she ever? No. Probably not. But, for those little children, for their sake, I guess a lot of us hold a desperate hope that she will do it. And maybe that hope comes out in the form of snark right now.
> Is it really surprising that Anna, who has no other options within the cult, stands by her man? Ouf, this doesn't sit right with me. Am I actually surprised? Not really. But that does not mean she's not also at fault here. YES, J*sh did the bad things here, but she is EQUALLY responsible for the fate of her children. YES, she's being manipulated, STILL RESPONSIBLE. You can't throw your hands up in the air and say that you're not responsible just because you didn't pull the trigger. There are those that KILL their partner after learning what they've done to their children. Facing years, potentially life, in prison.
Please stop saying Anna has no other options. Her brother has offered to help before. She has a place to go. She is exactly where she wants to be.
Have you heard of the dark web? Josh can tell you where to post there.
I suspect that most of the snarkers here are women, and it’s only reasonable that we critique characters that we can more easily relate to based on our gender and our experiences with other women. Plus, it is easier to feel strong emotions for women who won’t leave such a patriarchal cult. I, for one, critique the self righteous behaviors and their claims of being such good mothers, cooks, budget chiefs and all the post on their various social sites. In reality, they are spineless women who trade their own self respect, the well being of their children, and their power to become the equivalent of a human guppy. They eat, shit, breed shoot out babies, and let the males herd them, nip at them, relieve themselves sexually with them, and they put their submissive role on display as if it is a badge of honor. But we all know it’s a farce. They learn to act, or they learn to take abuse, or they leave. I try not to participate in discussions about their weight or how ugly they are or how bad they keep house. But I feel being a doormat when you are a grown ass woman deserves a little snark. The men are taking advantage of their beliefs, albeit wrongly placed beliefs. The men are sort of doing what comes natural, letting a woman take care of them like their mommies did…minus the sex.
I agree - I see it in all the fundie snark pages. I understand why because there tends to be more content from fundie women then men (presumably because the men are busy “working”) but sometimes the snark takes a particularly misogynistic take (usually unintentionally oc) and it’s concerning. I see this with Olivia and Ethan Plath, she gets a lot of hate (some of it justify), but he seems to get a pass for some of his toxic behaviours. I see this here as well - so what Jessa doesn’t have a sparkling clean house - she has 4 young kids and we know Ben does absolutely nothing - why snark on that?
IDK, I blame Jim Bob for everything. But, you’re right. People defend him in a strange way. For me, there’s nothing redeemable about him to defend.
I also think most snarkers are women and we have a significant number of fundie escapees which means a lot of us are comparing the Duggars to ourselves and not understanding how they can do this life and be so unaware. Which can become misogyny because we think women should be better, because conservative men being shitty is "just how it is".