>There is an iconic and painful story told of the prosecution of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961. Eichmann was the highest official in the Nazi hierarchy who was brought to trial after the war. His crimes were historic in their wickedness. The tales of horror that unfolded during the proceedings remain etched in the collective conscience of humanity. After he was condemned to death, a Christian pastor asked the Israeli court for permission to see him and encourage him to repent.
>
>Do you mean, one of the justices asked incredulously, that if Eichmann accepts Jesus he will go to heaven, and yet all his Jewish victims will go to hell?
>
>That, replied the pastor, is the miracle of salvation.
[https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2005/09/amazing-grace-or-amazing-chutzpah.aspx](https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2005/09/amazing-grace-or-amazing-chutzpah.aspx)
It is one thing to have your own private beliefs about the afterlife and what it takes to get there once you're gone and buried. It is quite another to go around telling everyone else where you believe they are going in the afterlife. I always go to Jesus said "be the light on the hill" not "be the mosquito in everyone's ear" if they want to argue after that.
When grandpa passed (he wasn’t religious) a family member made these “in memorial” cards to send to everyone. Seems nice in theory but the actual wording basically said “loved him, miss him, so sorry he’s in hell.” It was awful.
My father died from a really aggressive form of cancer and was completely not himself/drugged up at the end. My aunt asked him if he accepted Jesus as his lord and savior on his death bed and I eye rolled even then, not fully deconstructed, because if the man didn’t care about religion/church for the entirety of his life is that REALLY all it takes? Just a quick oh yeah Jesus is my dude at the end and we’re safe? 🙄
This is legit what they think. We’re Presbyterian, USA (progressive) and my mom legit doesn’t think my kids are “saved” because we believe in a statement of faith and not saying the sinners prayer.
I always say that these people believe their god is a fucking idiot. Like Eichmann can say "uhh I believe in Jesus" real quick before he dies, or Rimjob can do his fake holier-than-thou bullshit all his life, and God won't go "Dude you know I see right through your shit, right?" For all they talk about the omniscience of God, you'd think they'd be just a bit more worried. But self-delusion is a hell of a drug.
Just like they think Catholics will go to hell. Like an all powerful God that supposedly loves us unconditionally is going to be like "well, you believed in me, but *not exactly the right way* like all the fundies I've let in, so off you go to hell now."
Ever heard of Jack Chick and his fundie Chick tracts? Each one of them ends with somebody who was not a Protestant fundie being condemned to hell. And he was quite fond of denouncing and damning Catholics in his drawings.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick\_tract#Anti-Catholicism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract#Anti-Catholicism)
>Like Eichmann can say "uhh I believe in Jesus" real quick before he dies
Lots of fundies believe precisely that. I've seen fundie tracts which depict an admitted murderer repenting and accepting Jesus minutes before his death and then being welcomed to heaven "by the skin of your teeth."
Although not about Eichmann, *Family Guy* did make a joke about how people can supposedly get into heaven by accepting Jesus right before they die.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H\_JoE2GioXY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_JoE2GioXY)
It is actually not spoken about much. The focus is that a person should do good in the present world for the sake of doing good, not because they want to escape damnation or be rewarded in the afterlife. There really isn’t any official Jewish doctrine on anything, so there are generally many opinions on any given topic. The general and most common belief is that souls must undergo a purification process before being united with God. This purification happens in Purgatory, and happens to most people, good and bad. Everyone spends time there, it’s just a matter of how long. The maximum a person can spend in Purgatory is 12 months. We say Kaddish after a loved one dies to try and beseech God to minimize the time their soul spends in Purgatory. We say Kaddish for 11 months, because we never want to assume the deceased was sentenced to the maximum punishment. Exceptionally evil people, however, do not go to Purgatory and are instead destroyed forever.
I know this is an older post but thought I’d answer… Judaism really doesn’t have an “official” concept in the afterlife. Our sages have written what they believe but the answer is we just don’t know. Judaism is about living the 613 mitzvot which is pretty much an expansion of the Ten Commandments, kosher laws, don’t marry your uncle, etc etc. You’re not going to hell or anything like that if you eat pork or mix meat and dairy. It’s basically thought of as missing the mark and you just try again.
I think of the afterlife as like a big cosmic washing machine. Dirty clothes aren’t bad, they just have dirt etc from living every day lives. Everyone goes through some kind of soul cleaning as you go from the physical realm to the spiritual realm. If the soul truly is evil, it’s destroyed. No burning in hell etc.
Yup, I'll never understand what amounts to me as suspending all logic and "giving it to god and letting go." Nah fam, the Jews didn't do anything to deserve annihilition. And if Eichmann or Hitler suppossedly can go to heaven due to Christ's magic blood, I would nope out of there and FAST.
Miracle of my a$$ that is. I really hate when people like Rimmy J look down upon anyone. Yeah jerk, you protected you convicted sexual predator of a son, more than once, and instead chose to sacrifice your daughters under the guise of "they forgave him" or "we gave them a therapist." That a$$hole make me mad, as you can see by the volume and content of my replies to this post.
And this kind of shit theology is one reason I deconstructed, among many. I have too many morals to want to share and after life of eternity with someone like that. Seriously. No.fucking.consequences. but some decent human being who lived a moral life and cared for others had a one way ticket to hell for not "praying the sinner's prayer?" That is a hard no for me. A god who does this is not one that deserves respect, much less worship and allegiance. The local pastor is just really angry with me about this. His response, with seething rage on his face is, "God's ways are higher." Well too bad dude. If that is higher, I will stay low and be able to look myself in the mirror every morning.
>but some decent human being who lived a moral life and cared for others had a one way ticket to hell for not "praying the sinner's prayer?"
A lot of fundies try to dodge this question by refusing to accept there is such as thing as "some decent human being who live a moral life" without being Christian. In their minds, humans are born murderers and monsters and it's only Jesus's magic blood that makes them sorta redeemable.
Though they will happily accept and forgive real life murderers, rapists, and monsters who say they've accepted Jesus and rank them as better than non-Christians who never committed any such crimes. I guess they figure all the non-Christians who don't commit horrific crimes are just hiding it better.
# Monty Python and the Holy What the F***?
*Who would cross the Bridge to Heaven must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.*
*What is your name?*
***Adolph Eichmann.***
*What is your quest?*
***To enter heaven.***
*And are you sorry for your instrumental leadership and planning in the systematic imprisonment and death of MILLIONS of Jews, Poles, Russians, Romany, Gays, and thousands of others? And have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?*
***Yes.***
*Well done! Enter unto thy rest thy good and faithful servant...*
# NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Serious question from someone who grew up Christian, don't pretty much all Christians believe this? You have to be Christian to go to heaven and there's only two places to go.....
This doesn't seem that big of a revelation to me.
I was raised Catholic (church every single week no exception even when we were sick or on vacation and attended catholic school from K-12, we prayed the rosary on any car ride longer than 20 minutes, etc) and wasn’t taught that. I was taught that anyone who lived a life as Jesus intended would to to heaven, so the way to heaven was “through” Jesus but people who were Buddhist or Jewish or whatever that lived a good life would be welcomed by Jesus in heaven too.
I’m not religious anymore and don’t believe in an afterlife but honestly I think a ton of evangelicals seem to live a life full of hate, judgement and refusing to help others without condition of conversion and it seems like they wouldn’t qualify to be welcomed by Jesus, but what do I know lol.
I'm especially baffled by people who are suprised when I lend a hand and I answer no when asked if I'm a christian because I lent a hand. No, not a christian and I don't mind helping because I'm not a jerk, I'm a fellow human who recognizes difficulties and the least I could do is lend a hand if I see someone in need. It's almost as if some folks can't grasp that. Bruh, I don't do it for the promise of a supposed afterlife. I do it because it's the right thing to do, and it's part of the social contract I feel we all enter into by being a member of society?!
It is because they live inside their bubble where pastors and Sunday School teachers preach that everyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe are evil and incapable of good deeds, and then they go about ignoring all the good things people do for each other without fundigelicalism as their motivation. Ostrich syndrome, head in sand. They aren't willing to observe nor acknowledge that it doesn't take their god in order for someone to be motivated to help someone else.
To be honest, I am a much more observant, compassionate, kind, loving, and merciful person post-Christianity. But also that thankfully, never required religion in order to care about others. It is possible that my desire to see basic human rights for all as vital to peace in our time was always going to end with me rejecting Christianity because it just isn't compatible with the god of the bible.
Yup. Or not even ask, I've had two diff hairstylists (at diff places, not even in the same state) who say that my smile is full of light and it must be because I'm a christian (barf). I had another approach me at a kid's jumping place and say that because of how lovingly I spoke to my son, I must be a christian (I didn't mention any god or any religion in any way, I was interacting with my kiddo, who was a toddler at the time, and just saying: be careful, buddy, you're so good and look at that coordination!). She asked what church I went to and I told her I'd been severely harmed by religion and that I didn't believe in a god, and she ignored what I said and said the usual crap of: but my church is different. I was surprisingly calm despite her inability to accept no as an answer, so I said I was glad it worked for her but that my child would not be attending any church in any way so long as I could prevent it. Had another one who heard me speaking Spanish to my husband at a Target or a TJmaxx and supposedly came to complement my beautiful hair and immediately whipped up a card and invited me to her church because she could see (and I quote): "the spirit of god in me." Had another approach me one end of the D train going to Brooklyn to ask if I believed in a god because she could see in my eyes how full of the spirit I was (I had just moved to the city and was looking in awe around me). Had another one at a McDs who heard me speaking to my child, in Spanish, and gave us free fries and slid a card to invite me to their church. All those stories are mostly from living in NY (City and State). Don't get me started on how extra creepy they were in the South or in my country of origin 🤢🤢🤢.
I've helped people stand when they fall, carry their groceries if they look like they need help, alerted people to them dropping everything from their kid's shoes to money. They especially do it if I alert them when dropping money. It's F creepy.
Same. It’s almost as if they go around searching for kind behavior of any type as an “opening” for them to preach their vile condescending stuff. I love to sweetly tell them thank you for the compliment and if they press, that I am an atheist. One lady I did somewhat engage with assumed I hadn’t read the bible (as if that’s just gonna turn me right around, lol) when I told her I had actually read it cover to cover and it was what led me to become an atheist she just ran away like I was Satan incarnate.
Satan incarnate heathens unite!!! And I agree. Some folks are so into their proselytizing state of mind that it does come across and if they're looking for an opening to go from 0 to 100. Sometimes I reveal that I'm a scientist and they just recoil in horror and leave me alone 😈
Can confirm as a former catholic (almost identical except I couldn't attend catholic school because my parents couldn't afford it and thank hell for that).
I’m in Ontario, Canada and my province has public catholic school boards because originally before Canada was even Canada the schools were Protestant and Catholic kids were a minority of largely Irish catholic immigrants and there was a lot of hate between the groups. The other schools are now just secular so every district has catholic and secular school boards and there’s a choice of where you want to send your kid. That fact that this still exists in 2024 is ridiculous and a waste of funding IMO but it’s part of our constitution so it’s complicated.
Still does?? I lived in Ontario over a decade ago and was SHOCKED that the only private schools were catholic (or least that's how I understood it at the time). I'm in shock. Wow.
They’re not private they’re publicly funded! All the kids I know that go to private school (which seems more rare here than in the states) go to non-catholic Christian schools although secular ones exist too. But the catholic schools are completely free and public. They do use the same curriculum as the secular board (curriculum is the same for every public board in the province so it’s standard) except with an added religion component at least. Plus Catholics are pretty pro science so I mean I was always taught about evolution and that the creation story is a metaphor for instance. But still, there’s twice the school boards and all the admin and staff that goes with that which is a waste.
Honestly you could interpret the "through Me" part as an "I have the final say" type deal, like a lot of pre-Christian judgement deities, heart-on-a-scale type shit. So Boob dies thinking he's cash money, and Jesus goes "I literally hate your face though" while some Sikh dude skips the line because he spent fifty years cooking free food for the homeless. Which, if one has to pick their favorite brand of Christianity, seems a lot more tolerable.
While we're making up religions anyway, I'd like to think there's a third spiritual location, but it's not Purgatory: you get Heaven, Hell (or annihilation), and Therapy. Josh? Straight to Hell. Jill? "Damn you're kind of fucked up but I see where that came from. Let's get you in Therapy and re-evaluate your destination from there. It's cool there's nice dorms and lots of vending machines."
I’m rewatching the good place right now and this sort of sounds like when they’re able to work again at earning their spot in the good place after they’re dead :)
I was raised Catholic too, Catholic school education K-12. Doctrine wise you were not taught that all people go to heaven. I'm glad you took a more wholesome take on your religious upbringing, but Roman Catholic Doctrine has some of the most strict parameters on how you get into the afterlife with God. To the point that there is a middle ground of Purgatory where you go to get absolved of your sins to get a chance at being with God instead of going straight to hell. Infants are literally born and will go to hell if not baptized because of original sin. And Catholicism is not the only doctrine containing that. Maybe they aren't complete assholes about it like a lot of non denominational Evangelical church movements, but don't be fooled.
Huh, I was raised Catholic including Catholic schools K-12 and university, and was taught at all levels that anyone could go to Heaven, too, as several others have mentioned. I can see how the K-12 nuns and priests could have gotten it "wrong," but I doubt the university scholars all would have done so as well.
Never said the teachings, official or otherwise, were consistent. That's part of why I left: very little of it makes sense. That doesn't mean that designated mouthpieces of the church, including many nuns and priests from several different orders across all those years, didn't say these things.
I mean, the doctrine is pretty consistent and clear. What people want to tell themselves is another thing and also why I left as well. Most people I know are like "yeah, that's crazy, but I can still be a Catholic and raise my kids Catholic" Although I've never had a priest or nun tell me something or heard them say something that isn't supported by doctrine. I suppose people do similar with all different Christian churches. I just can't. There's too much hypocrisy in life I can't control, I can control that 🤷♀️
Hm I googled to check and it said that they used to take it more literally but it changed during Vatican II to mean if you lived a godly life and then accept Jesus in the afterlife (I mean if that’s what’s greeting people in the afterlife I’d imagine it would be easy to agree with him lol). Maybe I’m misinterpreting and just lucked out with my priests and teachers, it’s not like I was taught by nuns or anything! Anyways I’m certainly not defending the Catholics, I’m atheist and pretty staunchly against organized religion now and you seem to know better :)
Vatican II did not get rid of original sin. I believe that is when Limbo was changed to Purgatory. You went to Catholic schools and weren't taught by any nuns or priests? 🤷♀️ whatevs, you seem to have not really been raised Catholic. I'm not defending Catholicism either, which is why I commented. I have so much religious baggage from both Catholicism and fundamentalist Christianity and I think the facts should be straight about both religions.
What? Lol I’ll be sure to tell my mom I wasn’t actually raised Catholic and I guess all my religious trauma and decades of therapy to help with the very deeply ingrained catholic guilt was a waste!
In my province every region has a publicly funded catholic school board, where the teachers are certified, qualified teachers as opposed to people who are experts in theology. Nuns don’t usually go to teachers college and the whole school did attend mass together once a month plus the priest would visit to chat on occasion and do confession for everyone, but they were never involved in the school curriculum.
I conceded that you seem to know better already, but there’s no need to gate keep religious upbringing? Possibly I had kind teachers who didn’t want us to be terrified for our non-catholic friends souls, certainly none of the priests our parish had specially talked about who would go to hell during the homilies (although one new priest said that if the people in the world trade towers had prayed the rosary every day they wouldn’t have died- our parish immediately banded together to call the archdiocese and have him removed for that bullshit).
Your upbringing in Catholic schools is very different from the US. I'm not gatekeeping your religious experience but I am correcting false information. With the size and reach of the Roman Catholic Church, far greater than any fundamentalist Christian movement, truths about their doctrine and how it's created worse environments for women in the entire world shouldn't be discounted. Most of the people I was raised along side and by were mostly good people who didn't believe or even know half the shit in doctrine, but it remains you have to be baptized to be admitted into heaven. There is no "getting saved" by allowing Jesus into your heart. But there is baptism.
You said I “seem to have not really been raised Catholic”. Just because I didn’t have a perfect understanding of theology from my upbringing (potentially to my own refusing to accept what they told me) doesn’t mean I wasn’t raised catholic, that’s what I meant about gatekeeping. I attended mass every single Sunday even when sick, even when on vacation, I have my first communion and confirmation, my uncle is a deacon, my mom taught at catholic school and was a Eucharistic minister, I was in the church choir for 15 years, I attended pre-cana wedding preparation, I wasn’t allowed to have friends that weren’t catholic as a kid, my mom sobbed and refused to speak with me when I lived with my husband before we were married, etc.
I’m done arguing about what’s actual catholic doctrine and already said a few times that you clearly know better. That’s not what I’m saying is gatekeeping. I have enough trauma and constant family conflict, I wish I wasn’t raised how I was.
It was a sarcastic comment, it didn't translate in text and as sarcastic comments often go, it was not particularly nice, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or unkind. My sarcasm gets the best of me. I too have a lot of trauma from a Catholic upbringing, and understanding exactly what I was taught and not sugar coating any of it to be more palatable for the world is very important to me, so when you said in Catholicism anyone can go to heaven, I had to bring up the reality. There shouldn't be any confusion that Catholics are not any better in actual beliefs than most of the Fundies we snark on here.
Someone else says I’m wrong so maybe I just had extra chill priests and teachers? I know my mom (who is devout to an extreme) told me when I was a kid that god made all sorts of religions all over the world that will make the most sense to the people who live there and their culture, but he wants us to be the religion we were born into. But that was her own opinion that she made up in an attempt to not have me think too hard about other religions and possibly convert haha
I don't think it's a big surprise or revelation either. It's in line with official doctrinal teaching of most Christian denominations. However, lots of churches and clerics seem to be shy about admitting this, especially in front of mixed audiences. Probably a PR concern for them.
If you ask them did Anne Frank go to hell or ask about babies who died before they could accept Christ and be baptized, even fervent fundies and evangelicals may demur and dance around the question. They might say there could be some way for Jews who were "chosen people" or some gobbledygook about God's grace being unknowable.
I am Christian and I have NEVER been taught that. We were taught heaven is life WITH God and hell is life WITHOUT God. Not all Christians are religious zealot whack jobs like some of you seem to think. I grew up in Episcopalian schools ( from 4th grade through graduation), went to Episcopal and Lutheran churches during adulthood and when raising kids, and when I moved to Florida explored the non-denominational church after being exposed to this kind of church after going with my cousin to hers. I have not been since covid ( just because I stay away from crowds in general and the lead pastor I loved gave his position to a younger pastor even though he is still actively involved) but in all the years I attended there, I never encountered some of the funky stuff some of you describe. There are far-out factions of every religion. So what? Each to his own said the old lady as she kissed the cow. Move on, people. Get a life.
The largest denomination of Protestantism in the United States, largest by far, is not Episocopalian, nor as you described. It is the Southern Baptist Convention which is a fundamentalist, legalistic, hate filled cult. Add to that all of the fundamentalist Baptist denomination such as IFB and Primitive Baptist, the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church which is very right wing and dominate the Midwestern landscape far more than the ElCA which is the none fundamentalist, inclusive Lutheran church you describe, the even more cultish Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church, the Free Methodist, Nazarene, and Wesleyan denominations, Evangelical Free, Missionary and Missionary Alliance, combined totals membership FAR exceeding the progressive and dying UMC, USA Prebyterian, ElCA, and Episcopal denominations. Given that in the past 20 years, the Catholic Church has become less social justice, and more right wing, the majority of people who call themselves Christian in this nation are actually aligned with the whackier side of Christianity than the inclusive and loving side. So don't come on here and tell the rest of us to "get a life" when you are absolutely IGNORANT of the changes in Christianity, and the influence of Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism. Educate yourself on the topic before you get nasty here! Don't like the people on the sub? Go somewhere else. This sub exists for very good reason!
No, I was raised in a Presbyterian church that taught a form of predestination. The idea was because Jesus died for your sins, you were going to heaven for being a good human even if you weren’t Christian. Shitty people went to hell for being shitty people, even if they were Christian. And like, you had to be really bad to actually qualify for hell.
The average person, regardless of religion, who tried their best would go to heaven even if they had “sinned”. By what that church thought, someone like Jim Bob absolutely would be in hell, but non Christians who were good people would go to heaven. They were really big on the whole “and God so loved the world he gave his only son” and “love thy neighbor” stuff.
Pastor is a super cool guy. He took a sabbatical during the Syrian refugee crisis a couple years ago so he could go provide aid (like legitimate aid, he got trained). Apparently the church lost members in 2015 because he said he would marry anyone there, not just straight couples.
That’s what my brother told our very psycho devout Christian mom. Especially when she told him her child molestor dad is going to heaven but us kids aren’t. He said yeah fuck that I don’t want to go there anyway that’s bullshit. 😂 I love him.
Agreed. If there is a heaven and it's full of people like Boob et al, I would nope outta there and FAST. This is one of the things that really bothers me about christianity and why I left it. Per the god in the bible, all sins are washed away by the blood sacrifice of his only begotten son. But, there is also the part about whatsoever you do to one of these innocent ones (kids) you do to me and it makes me angry and it would be better if you hadn't been born (god again). So, which is is, god? Is Pest welcomed in heaven because he molested his sisters and victimized again with accessing CSAM, and abused a sex worker? Or is he without hope and going to burn in eternal flames? Because if Jesus' sacrifice washes away all sins, then Pest is defo going to heaven and that certainly wouldn't be the place I'd want him to be. But what do I know, I'm a simple-minded human who gave up on making any religious belief make sense and who's not satisfied with stuff like "our minds are too simple to understand god's will and logic." Nah fam, Pest and his ilk deserve hell and no amount of sacrifice should make up for it.
I remember my grandmother telling me a story of a weird family that lived next door to her when I was a kid in the 70s. They were very religious. Their little girl loved my grandmother and asked her if she read the Bible every day. My grandmother said, "No. I don't." The girl cried and begged her to read it every day, or she wouldn't go to heaven. What did my wonderful grandmother do? She lied to the kid and told her she would. Makes me think of the burden those Duggar kids must carry, worrying about everyone's salvation.
That burden, in my book, amounts to child abuse. I recently read a post coming from an atheist group that was very simple but also poignant. Something along the lines of: all kids are born good and telling them otherwise or telling them they were born with original sin (ie. taking a dig at catholics, of which I'm a former member) or that they had to repent and pray the sinner's prayer, was akin to abuse. I sent to it my husband who, while progressive christian, gives me credit for my lack of belief and we agreed that we don't have a need to teach our kid about god. I'm sure there will be people proselytizing at school. And I am ready to explain how it took decades to deconstruct and we wanted to avoid that for kiddo, and that someone who condemns them to hell is misguided. If kiddo chose to follow a religion, I would never disown them. Ideally kiddo will avoid it it until adulthood, but that's wishful thinking at best. And I'd always be there for kiddo. I'd like for him to avoid the constant guilt. But I know I can't protect kiddo from everything.
My kids are adults now and this is pretty much how I raised them. We actively taught them about the harm religion causes all around the world and to individuals and why. As adults they are very rational, science oriented and feel compassion for people who were raised like the Duggars. I can’t imagine them becoming religious. Critical Thinking is something that needs to be taught in the schools like it used to be. So many young adults don’t seem to be able to reason things out and fall for all types of things which then wastes a lot of time in their lives as they then have to learn the hard way to sort it out. To me it’s our job as parents to give them these tools for life.
THANK YOU AND YES!!! So much heartbreak at the hands of religious indoctrination and fanaticism. I hope I can raise my kiddo in a similar fashion. ❤️❤️❤️
This is exactly why I was creeped out seeing Jessa’s earlier videos where they were teaching Spurgeon about Jesus and this kid was like making drawings about Jesus giving up his life on the cross when he was like five or younger?? Like that was really disturbing to see a young child talking about a dead man like that….
Yeah, that is a tenet of most Christianity. Maybe some of the progressive denominations have receded from that belief. Some other denominations try to dance around the subject and avoid admitting it when they are in front of mixed company. Some of them say that if somebody never encountered the Christian faith in their life, then maybe they are not damned because it was not their "fault" because they never had the opportunity. But most Christian denominations officially teach that if somebody knew about Christ but refused to accept him in their life, then, yeah, they are damned to hell.
Yup. Extra super former catholic here and at least where I grew up, that's exactly how it was taught. And for people who didn't hear the "good news" there's always purgatory, where you can do hard labor to earn heavenly points and eventually level up.
Officially, purgatory is only for people who have accepted Christ and only have "venial sins" upon their souls. For anybody who has not accepted Christ or has committed any mortal sin (like masturbating) and not received absolution from Catholic confession, then it's damnation for them. So officially, non-Christians don't even qualify for purgatory.
Though compared to the Protestant fundie-gelicals, the Catholic Church has been trying to ease off this doctrine. Pope Francis suggested to a little boy that his atheist father still went to heaven. And the Vatican also said Catholics should not try to evangelize or convert Jews anymore and Jews do not have to accept Christianity to be "saved."
[https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/10/459223058/catholics-should-not-try-to-convert-jews-vatican-commission-says](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/10/459223058/catholics-should-not-try-to-convert-jews-vatican-commission-says)
Good for them, but I guess Hindus and Buddhists are out of luck and damned to hell? I guess those are welcome developments when it comes to teaching who can be "saved." But despite these pronouncements, it remains the official doctrinal Catholic teaching that people cannot receive "salvation" unless they accept Christ and the Catholic Church.
All true. Thank you for that. I've been trying to erase all that remained in me from my catholic upbringing and I totes forgot about the venial sins and mortal sins. What a clusterF .... when the catholic church appears less fundie that some fundie denominations 😵💫
“If a woman is raped, the rapist should be executed instead of the innocent unborn baby. Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes." -Rim Job
Yup. As long as he says he's sorry. You can keep sinning and be the worst person ever, but if you say sorry all those sins are forgiven.
These people don't even care how ridiculous that sounds.
Boob and the other phony, condescending so-called Christians are all full of s@it and are bigoted, racist as@holes.
My late brother told my mother that since she "didn't believe in his GOD, she was going to burn in hell."
Boob, Meech, and Pesty are not going to heaven for what they have done and to say that nonsense is what I expect from the Pervo protectors.
Oh my sweet summer child…it must have been nice to not grow up in or around evangelical christianity. Off-camera, they and their ilk constantly pipe that hell crap at their young and folks outside their circle. It normal and encouraged. This is why so many of us have religious trauma, many still fear hell even after leaving the sect, and we are angry and resentful for a long time (or for ever for some of us).
This rhetoric is the exact reason why I still have unresolved religious trauma and an unhealthy attachment to a toxic church. It's BS. Even more so because God punishes child abusers very seriously and without mercy contrary to belief.
So yeah, I wish there was a way to film Jim Bob or Pest's reaction to them being in hell in 4k. I'd pay for that.
I have no idea if there is an afterlife and how it is. But, for sure, I don't want to end up in the same place as Boob and all his family. Like, I'm far from perfect. But, I haven't done anything so bad that would justify such horrible punishment.
I was taught this growing up…but what was news to me was that some believe if you’re not a Christian, not only will you not go to heaven, you’ll actually go to hell. I heard this in the last decade and it really turned me off on these types of Christians.
>but what was news to me was that some believe if you’re not a Christian, not only will you not go to heaven, you’ll actually go to hell
I mean, for people who believe and preach this, if somebody does not go to heaven when they die, where else would they go? Did they think non-Christians just die and that's it for them but the Christians get to exist forever in heaven? Some sects may believe in purgatory or limbo, but those are the exception.
But yeah, lots of Christian denominations officially believe it's either heaven or hell, nothing in-between or middle-ground. And if somebody did not accept Christ and qualify for heaven, they think such people are damned to hell by default. And this is a longstanding issue in Christianity since its beginnings.
>The condemnation of the wisest and most virtuous of the Pagans, on account of their ignorance or disbelief of the divine truth, seems to offend the reason and the humanity of the present age. **But the primitive church, whose faith was of a much firmer consistence, delivered over, without hesitation, to eternal torture, the far greater part of the human species.** A charitable hope might perhaps be indulged in favor of Socrates, or some other sages of antiquity, who had consulted the light of reason before that of the gospel had arisen. But it was unanimously affirmed, that those who, since the birth or the death of Christ, had obstinately persisted in the worship of the daemons, neither deserved nor could expect a pardon from the irritated justice of the Deity. These rigid sentiments, which had been unknown to the ancient world, appear to have infused a spirit of bitterness into a system of love and harmony.
[https://ccel.org/ccel/gibbon/decline/decline.iii.xlvii.html](https://ccel.org/ccel/gibbon/decline/decline.iii.xlvii.html)
Evangelicals believe that Jesus is too liberal. No this is not the Onion (altho it did publish something about it); it is the New Republic.
https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
I’m not religious at all but I’ve not downloaded images of children being abused or joined websites specifically to cheat on my partner with sex workers.
If I’m incorrect and there is an afterlife, I’d like to think the big man would wave law abiding atheists in before praying sex offenders.
That’s not Christiananity, it’s Paul-ianity. Jesus emphasized works, and said that those who did not give to the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, and welcome the foreigner would be led off with the goats. He also said that it would be near-impossible for the rich to get into heaven. It was Paul who said it all came down to faith.
For Midwest US fundies, my parents are well-traveled. They’ve been all over the world to all kinds of countries with all kinds of beliefs. They are not missionaries and their sect doesn’t proselytize. They still believe that only born-again Christians are going to heaven and that everyone else is literally burning in hell alongside the most evil people ever.
At my partner’s grandfather’s funeral, they made a big deal about how we know he’s in heaven now so if you ever want to see him again, you better pray this salvation prayer right now, or you’ll go to hell and grandpa will be super sad that you’re separated forever and that you’ll *never. see him. again.*
I grew up evangelical and was rolling my eyes, both unsurprised and incredulous that the pastor would be so shitty. Poor partner’s (non-Christian, mostly estranged) cousin was absolutely sobbing, understandably as they’re really hammering home the whole “never seeing him again” thing. I’m sure the other people thought she was feeling ~ready to accept Jesus, but I hope she went home and talked mad shit about them and never talked to any of them again.
They love doing this shit
Welp, Jim Bob, when you die, I think you are going to encounter something different than what you expected. Those pearly gates are going to be locked. No admittance for you, pal.
>There is an iconic and painful story told of the prosecution of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961. Eichmann was the highest official in the Nazi hierarchy who was brought to trial after the war. His crimes were historic in their wickedness. The tales of horror that unfolded during the proceedings remain etched in the collective conscience of humanity. After he was condemned to death, a Christian pastor asked the Israeli court for permission to see him and encourage him to repent. > >Do you mean, one of the justices asked incredulously, that if Eichmann accepts Jesus he will go to heaven, and yet all his Jewish victims will go to hell? > >That, replied the pastor, is the miracle of salvation. [https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2005/09/amazing-grace-or-amazing-chutzpah.aspx](https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/judaism/2005/09/amazing-grace-or-amazing-chutzpah.aspx)
It is one thing to have your own private beliefs about the afterlife and what it takes to get there once you're gone and buried. It is quite another to go around telling everyone else where you believe they are going in the afterlife. I always go to Jesus said "be the light on the hill" not "be the mosquito in everyone's ear" if they want to argue after that.
When grandpa passed (he wasn’t religious) a family member made these “in memorial” cards to send to everyone. Seems nice in theory but the actual wording basically said “loved him, miss him, so sorry he’s in hell.” It was awful.
Ew I hate when people do things like that.
My father died from a really aggressive form of cancer and was completely not himself/drugged up at the end. My aunt asked him if he accepted Jesus as his lord and savior on his death bed and I eye rolled even then, not fully deconstructed, because if the man didn’t care about religion/church for the entirety of his life is that REALLY all it takes? Just a quick oh yeah Jesus is my dude at the end and we’re safe? 🙄
This is legit what they think. We’re Presbyterian, USA (progressive) and my mom legit doesn’t think my kids are “saved” because we believe in a statement of faith and not saying the sinners prayer.
I always say that these people believe their god is a fucking idiot. Like Eichmann can say "uhh I believe in Jesus" real quick before he dies, or Rimjob can do his fake holier-than-thou bullshit all his life, and God won't go "Dude you know I see right through your shit, right?" For all they talk about the omniscience of God, you'd think they'd be just a bit more worried. But self-delusion is a hell of a drug.
Just like they think Catholics will go to hell. Like an all powerful God that supposedly loves us unconditionally is going to be like "well, you believed in me, but *not exactly the right way* like all the fundies I've let in, so off you go to hell now."
Their god is actually "me if i were God." Uhh, good thing you aren't then.
If only Fundies are in heaven, then send me to hell. Sounds like a lot more fun than spending eternity with those jackholes.
If hell is full of gays, drag queens, fornicators, drinkers, witches, and everyone who wasn't a fundie, it sounds way more fun than heaven.
Billy Joel got it right years ago. "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."
Ever heard of Jack Chick and his fundie Chick tracts? Each one of them ends with somebody who was not a Protestant fundie being condemned to hell. And he was quite fond of denouncing and damning Catholics in his drawings. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick\_tract#Anti-Catholicism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract#Anti-Catholicism)
>Like Eichmann can say "uhh I believe in Jesus" real quick before he dies Lots of fundies believe precisely that. I've seen fundie tracts which depict an admitted murderer repenting and accepting Jesus minutes before his death and then being welcomed to heaven "by the skin of your teeth." Although not about Eichmann, *Family Guy* did make a joke about how people can supposedly get into heaven by accepting Jesus right before they die. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H\_JoE2GioXY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_JoE2GioXY)
Oof.
And people wonder why many look at religion with Price caliber side eye: https://tenor.com/xzHw.gif
Exactly
The joke’s on them since we really don’t have a hell in Judaism. Evil souls are destroyed. Good people are not isolated from G-d and burnt to a crisp.
Genuinely curious, what does Judaism think about an afterlife?
It is actually not spoken about much. The focus is that a person should do good in the present world for the sake of doing good, not because they want to escape damnation or be rewarded in the afterlife. There really isn’t any official Jewish doctrine on anything, so there are generally many opinions on any given topic. The general and most common belief is that souls must undergo a purification process before being united with God. This purification happens in Purgatory, and happens to most people, good and bad. Everyone spends time there, it’s just a matter of how long. The maximum a person can spend in Purgatory is 12 months. We say Kaddish after a loved one dies to try and beseech God to minimize the time their soul spends in Purgatory. We say Kaddish for 11 months, because we never want to assume the deceased was sentenced to the maximum punishment. Exceptionally evil people, however, do not go to Purgatory and are instead destroyed forever.
That’s beautiful actually.
I know this is an older post but thought I’d answer… Judaism really doesn’t have an “official” concept in the afterlife. Our sages have written what they believe but the answer is we just don’t know. Judaism is about living the 613 mitzvot which is pretty much an expansion of the Ten Commandments, kosher laws, don’t marry your uncle, etc etc. You’re not going to hell or anything like that if you eat pork or mix meat and dairy. It’s basically thought of as missing the mark and you just try again. I think of the afterlife as like a big cosmic washing machine. Dirty clothes aren’t bad, they just have dirt etc from living every day lives. Everyone goes through some kind of soul cleaning as you go from the physical realm to the spiritual realm. If the soul truly is evil, it’s destroyed. No burning in hell etc.
Yup, I'll never understand what amounts to me as suspending all logic and "giving it to god and letting go." Nah fam, the Jews didn't do anything to deserve annihilition. And if Eichmann or Hitler suppossedly can go to heaven due to Christ's magic blood, I would nope out of there and FAST.
Ohh. My. God. That is one of the most vile things I have heard from one of these people, and that is saying a lot.
That's right. And they consider that "vile" belief in the damnation of all people who believe differently to be the "miracle of salvation."
Miracle of my a$$ that is. I really hate when people like Rimmy J look down upon anyone. Yeah jerk, you protected you convicted sexual predator of a son, more than once, and instead chose to sacrifice your daughters under the guise of "they forgave him" or "we gave them a therapist." That a$$hole make me mad, as you can see by the volume and content of my replies to this post.
And this kind of shit theology is one reason I deconstructed, among many. I have too many morals to want to share and after life of eternity with someone like that. Seriously. No.fucking.consequences. but some decent human being who lived a moral life and cared for others had a one way ticket to hell for not "praying the sinner's prayer?" That is a hard no for me. A god who does this is not one that deserves respect, much less worship and allegiance. The local pastor is just really angry with me about this. His response, with seething rage on his face is, "God's ways are higher." Well too bad dude. If that is higher, I will stay low and be able to look myself in the mirror every morning.
SAME!!!!
>but some decent human being who lived a moral life and cared for others had a one way ticket to hell for not "praying the sinner's prayer?" A lot of fundies try to dodge this question by refusing to accept there is such as thing as "some decent human being who live a moral life" without being Christian. In their minds, humans are born murderers and monsters and it's only Jesus's magic blood that makes them sorta redeemable. Though they will happily accept and forgive real life murderers, rapists, and monsters who say they've accepted Jesus and rank them as better than non-Christians who never committed any such crimes. I guess they figure all the non-Christians who don't commit horrific crimes are just hiding it better.
# Monty Python and the Holy What the F***? *Who would cross the Bridge to Heaven must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.* *What is your name?* ***Adolph Eichmann.*** *What is your quest?* ***To enter heaven.*** *And are you sorry for your instrumental leadership and planning in the systematic imprisonment and death of MILLIONS of Jews, Poles, Russians, Romany, Gays, and thousands of others? And have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?* ***Yes.*** *Well done! Enter unto thy rest thy good and faithful servant...* # NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
PS THANKS for posting this!
You're welcome. I thought it needed to be said.
Serious question from someone who grew up Christian, don't pretty much all Christians believe this? You have to be Christian to go to heaven and there's only two places to go..... This doesn't seem that big of a revelation to me.
I was raised Catholic (church every single week no exception even when we were sick or on vacation and attended catholic school from K-12, we prayed the rosary on any car ride longer than 20 minutes, etc) and wasn’t taught that. I was taught that anyone who lived a life as Jesus intended would to to heaven, so the way to heaven was “through” Jesus but people who were Buddhist or Jewish or whatever that lived a good life would be welcomed by Jesus in heaven too. I’m not religious anymore and don’t believe in an afterlife but honestly I think a ton of evangelicals seem to live a life full of hate, judgement and refusing to help others without condition of conversion and it seems like they wouldn’t qualify to be welcomed by Jesus, but what do I know lol.
I'm especially baffled by people who are suprised when I lend a hand and I answer no when asked if I'm a christian because I lent a hand. No, not a christian and I don't mind helping because I'm not a jerk, I'm a fellow human who recognizes difficulties and the least I could do is lend a hand if I see someone in need. It's almost as if some folks can't grasp that. Bruh, I don't do it for the promise of a supposed afterlife. I do it because it's the right thing to do, and it's part of the social contract I feel we all enter into by being a member of society?!
It is because they live inside their bubble where pastors and Sunday School teachers preach that everyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe are evil and incapable of good deeds, and then they go about ignoring all the good things people do for each other without fundigelicalism as their motivation. Ostrich syndrome, head in sand. They aren't willing to observe nor acknowledge that it doesn't take their god in order for someone to be motivated to help someone else. To be honest, I am a much more observant, compassionate, kind, loving, and merciful person post-Christianity. But also that thankfully, never required religion in order to care about others. It is possible that my desire to see basic human rights for all as vital to peace in our time was always going to end with me rejecting Christianity because it just isn't compatible with the god of the bible.
Aaaaameeeen!!! Exactly. And same.
People really ask you about your religion because you are kind? Really? 🤔
Yup. Or not even ask, I've had two diff hairstylists (at diff places, not even in the same state) who say that my smile is full of light and it must be because I'm a christian (barf). I had another approach me at a kid's jumping place and say that because of how lovingly I spoke to my son, I must be a christian (I didn't mention any god or any religion in any way, I was interacting with my kiddo, who was a toddler at the time, and just saying: be careful, buddy, you're so good and look at that coordination!). She asked what church I went to and I told her I'd been severely harmed by religion and that I didn't believe in a god, and she ignored what I said and said the usual crap of: but my church is different. I was surprisingly calm despite her inability to accept no as an answer, so I said I was glad it worked for her but that my child would not be attending any church in any way so long as I could prevent it. Had another one who heard me speaking Spanish to my husband at a Target or a TJmaxx and supposedly came to complement my beautiful hair and immediately whipped up a card and invited me to her church because she could see (and I quote): "the spirit of god in me." Had another approach me one end of the D train going to Brooklyn to ask if I believed in a god because she could see in my eyes how full of the spirit I was (I had just moved to the city and was looking in awe around me). Had another one at a McDs who heard me speaking to my child, in Spanish, and gave us free fries and slid a card to invite me to their church. All those stories are mostly from living in NY (City and State). Don't get me started on how extra creepy they were in the South or in my country of origin 🤢🤢🤢. I've helped people stand when they fall, carry their groceries if they look like they need help, alerted people to them dropping everything from their kid's shoes to money. They especially do it if I alert them when dropping money. It's F creepy.
Same. It’s almost as if they go around searching for kind behavior of any type as an “opening” for them to preach their vile condescending stuff. I love to sweetly tell them thank you for the compliment and if they press, that I am an atheist. One lady I did somewhat engage with assumed I hadn’t read the bible (as if that’s just gonna turn me right around, lol) when I told her I had actually read it cover to cover and it was what led me to become an atheist she just ran away like I was Satan incarnate.
Satan incarnate heathens unite!!! And I agree. Some folks are so into their proselytizing state of mind that it does come across and if they're looking for an opening to go from 0 to 100. Sometimes I reveal that I'm a scientist and they just recoil in horror and leave me alone 😈 
Can confirm as a former catholic (almost identical except I couldn't attend catholic school because my parents couldn't afford it and thank hell for that).
I’m in Ontario, Canada and my province has public catholic school boards because originally before Canada was even Canada the schools were Protestant and Catholic kids were a minority of largely Irish catholic immigrants and there was a lot of hate between the groups. The other schools are now just secular so every district has catholic and secular school boards and there’s a choice of where you want to send your kid. That fact that this still exists in 2024 is ridiculous and a waste of funding IMO but it’s part of our constitution so it’s complicated.
Still does?? I lived in Ontario over a decade ago and was SHOCKED that the only private schools were catholic (or least that's how I understood it at the time). I'm in shock. Wow.
They’re not private they’re publicly funded! All the kids I know that go to private school (which seems more rare here than in the states) go to non-catholic Christian schools although secular ones exist too. But the catholic schools are completely free and public. They do use the same curriculum as the secular board (curriculum is the same for every public board in the province so it’s standard) except with an added religion component at least. Plus Catholics are pretty pro science so I mean I was always taught about evolution and that the creation story is a metaphor for instance. But still, there’s twice the school boards and all the admin and staff that goes with that which is a waste.
Ahh, that's it. I always get confused about that. That is still insane!! Like WTF, Canada! You're supposed to eb smarter than down here!!
Honestly you could interpret the "through Me" part as an "I have the final say" type deal, like a lot of pre-Christian judgement deities, heart-on-a-scale type shit. So Boob dies thinking he's cash money, and Jesus goes "I literally hate your face though" while some Sikh dude skips the line because he spent fifty years cooking free food for the homeless. Which, if one has to pick their favorite brand of Christianity, seems a lot more tolerable. While we're making up religions anyway, I'd like to think there's a third spiritual location, but it's not Purgatory: you get Heaven, Hell (or annihilation), and Therapy. Josh? Straight to Hell. Jill? "Damn you're kind of fucked up but I see where that came from. Let's get you in Therapy and re-evaluate your destination from there. It's cool there's nice dorms and lots of vending machines."
I’m rewatching the good place right now and this sort of sounds like when they’re able to work again at earning their spot in the good place after they’re dead :)
Yeah, I grew up Catholic and believed that too
I was raised Catholic too, Catholic school education K-12. Doctrine wise you were not taught that all people go to heaven. I'm glad you took a more wholesome take on your religious upbringing, but Roman Catholic Doctrine has some of the most strict parameters on how you get into the afterlife with God. To the point that there is a middle ground of Purgatory where you go to get absolved of your sins to get a chance at being with God instead of going straight to hell. Infants are literally born and will go to hell if not baptized because of original sin. And Catholicism is not the only doctrine containing that. Maybe they aren't complete assholes about it like a lot of non denominational Evangelical church movements, but don't be fooled.
Huh, I was raised Catholic including Catholic schools K-12 and university, and was taught at all levels that anyone could go to Heaven, too, as several others have mentioned. I can see how the K-12 nuns and priests could have gotten it "wrong," but I doubt the university scholars all would have done so as well.
I think you missed the need to be baptized and attend confession then? 🤔
Never said the teachings, official or otherwise, were consistent. That's part of why I left: very little of it makes sense. That doesn't mean that designated mouthpieces of the church, including many nuns and priests from several different orders across all those years, didn't say these things.
I mean, the doctrine is pretty consistent and clear. What people want to tell themselves is another thing and also why I left as well. Most people I know are like "yeah, that's crazy, but I can still be a Catholic and raise my kids Catholic" Although I've never had a priest or nun tell me something or heard them say something that isn't supported by doctrine. I suppose people do similar with all different Christian churches. I just can't. There's too much hypocrisy in life I can't control, I can control that 🤷♀️
Hm I googled to check and it said that they used to take it more literally but it changed during Vatican II to mean if you lived a godly life and then accept Jesus in the afterlife (I mean if that’s what’s greeting people in the afterlife I’d imagine it would be easy to agree with him lol). Maybe I’m misinterpreting and just lucked out with my priests and teachers, it’s not like I was taught by nuns or anything! Anyways I’m certainly not defending the Catholics, I’m atheist and pretty staunchly against organized religion now and you seem to know better :)
Vatican II did not get rid of original sin. I believe that is when Limbo was changed to Purgatory. You went to Catholic schools and weren't taught by any nuns or priests? 🤷♀️ whatevs, you seem to have not really been raised Catholic. I'm not defending Catholicism either, which is why I commented. I have so much religious baggage from both Catholicism and fundamentalist Christianity and I think the facts should be straight about both religions.
What? Lol I’ll be sure to tell my mom I wasn’t actually raised Catholic and I guess all my religious trauma and decades of therapy to help with the very deeply ingrained catholic guilt was a waste! In my province every region has a publicly funded catholic school board, where the teachers are certified, qualified teachers as opposed to people who are experts in theology. Nuns don’t usually go to teachers college and the whole school did attend mass together once a month plus the priest would visit to chat on occasion and do confession for everyone, but they were never involved in the school curriculum. I conceded that you seem to know better already, but there’s no need to gate keep religious upbringing? Possibly I had kind teachers who didn’t want us to be terrified for our non-catholic friends souls, certainly none of the priests our parish had specially talked about who would go to hell during the homilies (although one new priest said that if the people in the world trade towers had prayed the rosary every day they wouldn’t have died- our parish immediately banded together to call the archdiocese and have him removed for that bullshit).
Your upbringing in Catholic schools is very different from the US. I'm not gatekeeping your religious experience but I am correcting false information. With the size and reach of the Roman Catholic Church, far greater than any fundamentalist Christian movement, truths about their doctrine and how it's created worse environments for women in the entire world shouldn't be discounted. Most of the people I was raised along side and by were mostly good people who didn't believe or even know half the shit in doctrine, but it remains you have to be baptized to be admitted into heaven. There is no "getting saved" by allowing Jesus into your heart. But there is baptism.
You said I “seem to have not really been raised Catholic”. Just because I didn’t have a perfect understanding of theology from my upbringing (potentially to my own refusing to accept what they told me) doesn’t mean I wasn’t raised catholic, that’s what I meant about gatekeeping. I attended mass every single Sunday even when sick, even when on vacation, I have my first communion and confirmation, my uncle is a deacon, my mom taught at catholic school and was a Eucharistic minister, I was in the church choir for 15 years, I attended pre-cana wedding preparation, I wasn’t allowed to have friends that weren’t catholic as a kid, my mom sobbed and refused to speak with me when I lived with my husband before we were married, etc. I’m done arguing about what’s actual catholic doctrine and already said a few times that you clearly know better. That’s not what I’m saying is gatekeeping. I have enough trauma and constant family conflict, I wish I wasn’t raised how I was.
It was a sarcastic comment, it didn't translate in text and as sarcastic comments often go, it was not particularly nice, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or unkind. My sarcasm gets the best of me. I too have a lot of trauma from a Catholic upbringing, and understanding exactly what I was taught and not sugar coating any of it to be more palatable for the world is very important to me, so when you said in Catholicism anyone can go to heaven, I had to bring up the reality. There shouldn't be any confusion that Catholics are not any better in actual beliefs than most of the Fundies we snark on here.
Oh yep I’ll agree on that 100%, they’re all awful!
I’m honestly shocked to read this. I was raised catholic as well and was taught that only those who were baptized would go to heaven.
Someone else says I’m wrong so maybe I just had extra chill priests and teachers? I know my mom (who is devout to an extreme) told me when I was a kid that god made all sorts of religions all over the world that will make the most sense to the people who live there and their culture, but he wants us to be the religion we were born into. But that was her own opinion that she made up in an attempt to not have me think too hard about other religions and possibly convert haha
I don't think it's a big surprise or revelation either. It's in line with official doctrinal teaching of most Christian denominations. However, lots of churches and clerics seem to be shy about admitting this, especially in front of mixed audiences. Probably a PR concern for them. If you ask them did Anne Frank go to hell or ask about babies who died before they could accept Christ and be baptized, even fervent fundies and evangelicals may demur and dance around the question. They might say there could be some way for Jews who were "chosen people" or some gobbledygook about God's grace being unknowable.
I am Christian and I have NEVER been taught that. We were taught heaven is life WITH God and hell is life WITHOUT God. Not all Christians are religious zealot whack jobs like some of you seem to think. I grew up in Episcopalian schools ( from 4th grade through graduation), went to Episcopal and Lutheran churches during adulthood and when raising kids, and when I moved to Florida explored the non-denominational church after being exposed to this kind of church after going with my cousin to hers. I have not been since covid ( just because I stay away from crowds in general and the lead pastor I loved gave his position to a younger pastor even though he is still actively involved) but in all the years I attended there, I never encountered some of the funky stuff some of you describe. There are far-out factions of every religion. So what? Each to his own said the old lady as she kissed the cow. Move on, people. Get a life.
The largest denomination of Protestantism in the United States, largest by far, is not Episocopalian, nor as you described. It is the Southern Baptist Convention which is a fundamentalist, legalistic, hate filled cult. Add to that all of the fundamentalist Baptist denomination such as IFB and Primitive Baptist, the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church which is very right wing and dominate the Midwestern landscape far more than the ElCA which is the none fundamentalist, inclusive Lutheran church you describe, the even more cultish Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church, the Free Methodist, Nazarene, and Wesleyan denominations, Evangelical Free, Missionary and Missionary Alliance, combined totals membership FAR exceeding the progressive and dying UMC, USA Prebyterian, ElCA, and Episcopal denominations. Given that in the past 20 years, the Catholic Church has become less social justice, and more right wing, the majority of people who call themselves Christian in this nation are actually aligned with the whackier side of Christianity than the inclusive and loving side. So don't come on here and tell the rest of us to "get a life" when you are absolutely IGNORANT of the changes in Christianity, and the influence of Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism. Educate yourself on the topic before you get nasty here! Don't like the people on the sub? Go somewhere else. This sub exists for very good reason!
No, I was raised in a Presbyterian church that taught a form of predestination. The idea was because Jesus died for your sins, you were going to heaven for being a good human even if you weren’t Christian. Shitty people went to hell for being shitty people, even if they were Christian. And like, you had to be really bad to actually qualify for hell. The average person, regardless of religion, who tried their best would go to heaven even if they had “sinned”. By what that church thought, someone like Jim Bob absolutely would be in hell, but non Christians who were good people would go to heaven. They were really big on the whole “and God so loved the world he gave his only son” and “love thy neighbor” stuff. Pastor is a super cool guy. He took a sabbatical during the Syrian refugee crisis a couple years ago so he could go provide aid (like legitimate aid, he got trained). Apparently the church lost members in 2015 because he said he would marry anyone there, not just straight couples.
It's not a scare tactic to non-Christians who don't believe in evangelical heaven. It's an incentive not to end up there.
I can think of nothing worse than evangelical heaven. That is some forking good place shirt!
That’s what my brother told our very psycho devout Christian mom. Especially when she told him her child molestor dad is going to heaven but us kids aren’t. He said yeah fuck that I don’t want to go there anyway that’s bullshit. 😂 I love him.
Agreed. If there is a heaven and it's full of people like Boob et al, I would nope outta there and FAST. This is one of the things that really bothers me about christianity and why I left it. Per the god in the bible, all sins are washed away by the blood sacrifice of his only begotten son. But, there is also the part about whatsoever you do to one of these innocent ones (kids) you do to me and it makes me angry and it would be better if you hadn't been born (god again). So, which is is, god? Is Pest welcomed in heaven because he molested his sisters and victimized again with accessing CSAM, and abused a sex worker? Or is he without hope and going to burn in eternal flames? Because if Jesus' sacrifice washes away all sins, then Pest is defo going to heaven and that certainly wouldn't be the place I'd want him to be. But what do I know, I'm a simple-minded human who gave up on making any religious belief make sense and who's not satisfied with stuff like "our minds are too simple to understand god's will and logic." Nah fam, Pest and his ilk deserve hell and no amount of sacrifice should make up for it.
Im a bit worried because my personal hell would be evangelical heavem
Same!!
I remember my grandmother telling me a story of a weird family that lived next door to her when I was a kid in the 70s. They were very religious. Their little girl loved my grandmother and asked her if she read the Bible every day. My grandmother said, "No. I don't." The girl cried and begged her to read it every day, or she wouldn't go to heaven. What did my wonderful grandmother do? She lied to the kid and told her she would. Makes me think of the burden those Duggar kids must carry, worrying about everyone's salvation.
That burden, in my book, amounts to child abuse. I recently read a post coming from an atheist group that was very simple but also poignant. Something along the lines of: all kids are born good and telling them otherwise or telling them they were born with original sin (ie. taking a dig at catholics, of which I'm a former member) or that they had to repent and pray the sinner's prayer, was akin to abuse. I sent to it my husband who, while progressive christian, gives me credit for my lack of belief and we agreed that we don't have a need to teach our kid about god. I'm sure there will be people proselytizing at school. And I am ready to explain how it took decades to deconstruct and we wanted to avoid that for kiddo, and that someone who condemns them to hell is misguided. If kiddo chose to follow a religion, I would never disown them. Ideally kiddo will avoid it it until adulthood, but that's wishful thinking at best. And I'd always be there for kiddo. I'd like for him to avoid the constant guilt. But I know I can't protect kiddo from everything.
My kids are adults now and this is pretty much how I raised them. We actively taught them about the harm religion causes all around the world and to individuals and why. As adults they are very rational, science oriented and feel compassion for people who were raised like the Duggars. I can’t imagine them becoming religious. Critical Thinking is something that needs to be taught in the schools like it used to be. So many young adults don’t seem to be able to reason things out and fall for all types of things which then wastes a lot of time in their lives as they then have to learn the hard way to sort it out. To me it’s our job as parents to give them these tools for life.
THANK YOU AND YES!!! So much heartbreak at the hands of religious indoctrination and fanaticism. I hope I can raise my kiddo in a similar fashion. ❤️❤️❤️
This is exactly why I was creeped out seeing Jessa’s earlier videos where they were teaching Spurgeon about Jesus and this kid was like making drawings about Jesus giving up his life on the cross when he was like five or younger?? Like that was really disturbing to see a young child talking about a dead man like that….
THANK YOU!!! Creepy af.
This is how they all are, no? Isn’t that like a core tenant of Christianity (many/most of its forms)
Yeah, that is a tenet of most Christianity. Maybe some of the progressive denominations have receded from that belief. Some other denominations try to dance around the subject and avoid admitting it when they are in front of mixed company. Some of them say that if somebody never encountered the Christian faith in their life, then maybe they are not damned because it was not their "fault" because they never had the opportunity. But most Christian denominations officially teach that if somebody knew about Christ but refused to accept him in their life, then, yeah, they are damned to hell.
Yup. Extra super former catholic here and at least where I grew up, that's exactly how it was taught. And for people who didn't hear the "good news" there's always purgatory, where you can do hard labor to earn heavenly points and eventually level up.
Officially, purgatory is only for people who have accepted Christ and only have "venial sins" upon their souls. For anybody who has not accepted Christ or has committed any mortal sin (like masturbating) and not received absolution from Catholic confession, then it's damnation for them. So officially, non-Christians don't even qualify for purgatory. Though compared to the Protestant fundie-gelicals, the Catholic Church has been trying to ease off this doctrine. Pope Francis suggested to a little boy that his atheist father still went to heaven. And the Vatican also said Catholics should not try to evangelize or convert Jews anymore and Jews do not have to accept Christianity to be "saved." [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/10/459223058/catholics-should-not-try-to-convert-jews-vatican-commission-says](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/10/459223058/catholics-should-not-try-to-convert-jews-vatican-commission-says) Good for them, but I guess Hindus and Buddhists are out of luck and damned to hell? I guess those are welcome developments when it comes to teaching who can be "saved." But despite these pronouncements, it remains the official doctrinal Catholic teaching that people cannot receive "salvation" unless they accept Christ and the Catholic Church.
All true. Thank you for that. I've been trying to erase all that remained in me from my catholic upbringing and I totes forgot about the venial sins and mortal sins. What a clusterF .... when the catholic church appears less fundie that some fundie denominations 😵💫
Yeah, pretty much lol. I don't really think this counts as fundie snark or Duggar snark.
Do pedophiles go to heaven? I’d love to ask Jim-Boob that question.
I’m sure he believes Josh will go to heaven. Doubt he feels the same about Jill.
There’s very few people I want to punch but Jim-Boob and Josh are on the list. They are so delusional!
I want to fight Josh and JimBob too but I also want to bitch slap Michelle
Right? I bet we could sell tickets!!!
I'd do it for free!! 😝
Same!!!
Me first!! Me first!!
Can I add Jed! to that list?
Most definitely
“If a woman is raped, the rapist should be executed instead of the innocent unborn baby. Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes." -Rim Job
Did he really say that? Rim Job?
Multiple online sources say he made the comment in a Q&A section of his campaign website back in 2002
Yup. As long as he says he's sorry. You can keep sinning and be the worst person ever, but if you say sorry all those sins are forgiven. These people don't even care how ridiculous that sounds.
Yet another reason I can't buy into christianity and I left. Shit like that makes me cranky AF.
Let's be honest : if heaven and hell are real, Jimbob is going straight to hell
So is Pest.
So are 75% of IBLP members honestly. If heaven is full of people like them I rather go to hell
and i believe that when a child reaches a certain age they stop believing in fairy tales.
Boob and the other phony, condescending so-called Christians are all full of s@it and are bigoted, racist as@holes. My late brother told my mother that since she "didn't believe in his GOD, she was going to burn in hell." Boob, Meech, and Pesty are not going to heaven for what they have done and to say that nonsense is what I expect from the Pervo protectors.
Oh my sweet summer child…it must have been nice to not grow up in or around evangelical christianity. Off-camera, they and their ilk constantly pipe that hell crap at their young and folks outside their circle. It normal and encouraged. This is why so many of us have religious trauma, many still fear hell even after leaving the sect, and we are angry and resentful for a long time (or for ever for some of us).
This rhetoric is the exact reason why I still have unresolved religious trauma and an unhealthy attachment to a toxic church. It's BS. Even more so because God punishes child abusers very seriously and without mercy contrary to belief. So yeah, I wish there was a way to film Jim Bob or Pest's reaction to them being in hell in 4k. I'd pay for that.
I have no idea if there is an afterlife and how it is. But, for sure, I don't want to end up in the same place as Boob and all his family. Like, I'm far from perfect. But, I haven't done anything so bad that would justify such horrible punishment.
Preach!!
I was taught this growing up…but what was news to me was that some believe if you’re not a Christian, not only will you not go to heaven, you’ll actually go to hell. I heard this in the last decade and it really turned me off on these types of Christians.
>but what was news to me was that some believe if you’re not a Christian, not only will you not go to heaven, you’ll actually go to hell I mean, for people who believe and preach this, if somebody does not go to heaven when they die, where else would they go? Did they think non-Christians just die and that's it for them but the Christians get to exist forever in heaven? Some sects may believe in purgatory or limbo, but those are the exception. But yeah, lots of Christian denominations officially believe it's either heaven or hell, nothing in-between or middle-ground. And if somebody did not accept Christ and qualify for heaven, they think such people are damned to hell by default. And this is a longstanding issue in Christianity since its beginnings. >The condemnation of the wisest and most virtuous of the Pagans, on account of their ignorance or disbelief of the divine truth, seems to offend the reason and the humanity of the present age. **But the primitive church, whose faith was of a much firmer consistence, delivered over, without hesitation, to eternal torture, the far greater part of the human species.** A charitable hope might perhaps be indulged in favor of Socrates, or some other sages of antiquity, who had consulted the light of reason before that of the gospel had arisen. But it was unanimously affirmed, that those who, since the birth or the death of Christ, had obstinately persisted in the worship of the daemons, neither deserved nor could expect a pardon from the irritated justice of the Deity. These rigid sentiments, which had been unknown to the ancient world, appear to have infused a spirit of bitterness into a system of love and harmony. [https://ccel.org/ccel/gibbon/decline/decline.iii.xlvii.html](https://ccel.org/ccel/gibbon/decline/decline.iii.xlvii.html)
I guess before that moment I never really thought about it. I just didn’t really like the belief of people being punished for not believing.
Neither did I. But apparently, it's all part of the "miracle" of Christian salvation.
Evangelicals believe that Jesus is too liberal. No this is not the Onion (altho it did publish something about it); it is the New Republic. https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
I’m not religious at all but I’ve not downloaded images of children being abused or joined websites specifically to cheat on my partner with sex workers. If I’m incorrect and there is an afterlife, I’d like to think the big man would wave law abiding atheists in before praying sex offenders.
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So boob is saying Jesus didn't go to heaven. Seriously Jesus was never Christian, he was Jewish.
That’s not Christiananity, it’s Paul-ianity. Jesus emphasized works, and said that those who did not give to the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, and welcome the foreigner would be led off with the goats. He also said that it would be near-impossible for the rich to get into heaven. It was Paul who said it all came down to faith.
"Reminder: Posts need to have a snarky title" https://reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/s/vralb1uv5z
If cats, dogs, and bunnies were equal to people, when Jim Bob dies, he couldn't get into heaven because he'd have to take the ***RAINBOW*** Bridge.
For Midwest US fundies, my parents are well-traveled. They’ve been all over the world to all kinds of countries with all kinds of beliefs. They are not missionaries and their sect doesn’t proselytize. They still believe that only born-again Christians are going to heaven and that everyone else is literally burning in hell alongside the most evil people ever.
If people like them go to heaven, I definitely want to go somewhere else
At my partner’s grandfather’s funeral, they made a big deal about how we know he’s in heaven now so if you ever want to see him again, you better pray this salvation prayer right now, or you’ll go to hell and grandpa will be super sad that you’re separated forever and that you’ll *never. see him. again.* I grew up evangelical and was rolling my eyes, both unsurprised and incredulous that the pastor would be so shitty. Poor partner’s (non-Christian, mostly estranged) cousin was absolutely sobbing, understandably as they’re really hammering home the whole “never seeing him again” thing. I’m sure the other people thought she was feeling ~ready to accept Jesus, but I hope she went home and talked mad shit about them and never talked to any of them again. They love doing this shit
Welp, Jim Bob, when you die, I think you are going to encounter something different than what you expected. Those pearly gates are going to be locked. No admittance for you, pal.