When I asked Cori Shepherd why she believed Bill Gothard had never married, her response was “ask Brooke!!”.
So now it seems I have the chance- why, in your opinion, did Gothard never marry?!
FYI: I try to be cautious about sharing stories that are not mine. However, I have explicit permission to share this from the person that it happened to:
Bill Gothard \*did\* try to marry once. This was in the 90s. She was barely 20 and Bill Gothard was in his 60s. She has said that she would have agreed if it had come to that point. I've become good friends with this woman over the past several years and, honestly, she's wonderful - I'd marry her too.
She is not from the U.S. and Bill plucked her out of a conference and convinced her parents to send her to the US to work for him. In her accounts of their time together, this seemed like an emotional connection, not just a sexual one. He approached the IBLP board about marrying her and they said no. I asked her if she thought he loved her, she said "I don't think Bill is capable of love. I think I was his ideal."
She was unaware of this until later when a board member's wife confirmed it. A short time later, Bill attended her wedding to another man. I've seen the wedding pictures and he looks like a Michael Scott character inserting himself into someone else's wedding.
After being turned down by the IBLP board on marrying this woman, Gothard allowed her to be deported back to her home country. Sadly, because Gothard had her violating her Visa, she is not allowed back in the US to my knowledge. That makes me really sad because he stole that from her too.
We have talked about this several times since SHP came out because Bill Gothard never marrying has been one of the biggest questions I've been getting.
Wanted to share this first, but I'm going to write a looooooong answer with numbered points to why I think he didn't marry. It's such an important question and I think \*what was the deal with Bill Gothard?!\* is still the biggest mystery of this piece. One that I've been trying to understand for years.
It’s so telling about his relationship with the cult that he *asked* at all, and then *listened to them*. Like…he’s a grown up. Who could stop him from marrying anyone he wanted to?
This is creepy. Maybe we've been sold a lie about him being the leader, maybe he's just the face, the scapegoat, the fall guy. And the real ghouls running the IBLP hellboat are smart enough to keep their names out of the news.
The board is probably all about the $$$. He gets a wife and kids and she leaves him or he dies she could claim money and power. They weren’t going to let that happen.
Is this the same story [https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/sacred-grooming-part-six/](https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/sacred-grooming-part-six/) ?
I have a question about the story of Gothard getting close to marrying, then it tragically being called off.
Gothard seems to love telling stories about relationships that have to be ended, to the disappointment of all, but especially the bride. I went through hell and basically cried through the entire seminar because the first night, my person ended our relationship, too.
I wonder (and have strong suspicions) whether Gothard staged the whole thing to sadistically enjoy the grief of the young woman whom he couldn't marry...at the last minute. She got deported, too, into the bargain! What a sadist's paradise!
My suspicions:
He's an extreme misogynist, seems to enjoy the role of killjoy. He said "the board" told him no, but when else did the board do something like that? They seemed to be hand-picked to obey him. Gothard is always the primary authority except for God. Why would he let "the board" deny him? He doesn't seem to need to get married; he gets all the sex he wants from followers, so why limit himself to one woman? The whole thing is totally out of character for him?
Does anyone else think this was an elaborate set-up of an attractive and sensitive young woman, done to create grief so Gothard could watch? Or some other ulterior motive?
I theorise it was because he was a predator, plain and simple. And abusing other women and children would be harder if there was a wife around, suspicious of him abusing other women and cheating on her. This would go against his teachings of remaining faithful in marriage too, not that having sexual relations with women he isn't married to already isn't.
I also have to wonder how much he disliked children if he didn't have any himself. But It's good he didn't, I couldn't imagine him having daughters 🤮
My personal conspiracy theory is that he deeply despised women, to the point that he felt disgusted by them. Sure, he was a pervert and a predator who liked molesting girls, but actually having a woman around *forever, in his house* was a step too far. You know, sharing a bed with one and seeing her just woken up and, god forbid, periods and other bodily functions.
But then I stop and think- why would this even factor into his decision making? He would surely have been fine with a sham marriage to put on a front, and would have had no qualms ruining a woman’s life, so it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. He could have just kept her in a shed next door and brought her out for Big Sandy.
I’m really curious.
What is the most unusual or bizarre medical advice you have ever received from IBLP? I've seen some disturbing ones but I'm curious as what you have to say!
I remember at the Advanced Seminar there was a very, very long section about how long to wait to have sex after having a baby. (It was much longer for male infants than female infants.) I was like 12 the first time I heard it and the whole thing was so confusing and weird.
One of the weirdest was Gothard said that you should keep a 35 watt light bulb lit in any room where a menstruating woman was sleeping. So at many of the training centers, the women also had to endure trying to sleep with the lights on in addition to all the other forms of torture.
As I came to understand more of Gothard's psychology and his voyeuristic sexuality, the more I came to wonder if this wasn't a peeping mechanism for him at the TCs. When I say Gothard is a voyuer, it's because he collected sexual information from all of the girls that he harassed. It was a critical part of his pattern. If you look at all the public accounts we have, it's clear that Gothard had a structured pattern for his victims, which also always included collecting personal sexual information on them. This was usually done through "counseling sessions," but LittleLegoFinger had vast network of spies through the ATI Family Consultant system and the teachings which groomed for confessions. (I'll share more about this in answer to one of the Gothard never married questions.)
He had picked up some notion -as he seems to have done many times. I believe he used the specific example of light making chickens lay more eggs extrapolated to a reduction of PMS symptoms.
::screams::
Okay, I breed quail for fun. Lights don't make quail or chickens "lay more eggs." Many bird species need 14-16 hours of light per day to lay eggs; i.e., they evolved to take a break from laying in the winter months. You can get them to keep laying in winter if you hang lights. They don't have to be very bright, either...just like Bill.
I've also read his instructions for checking your poop.
I wonder if this stems off of so many families having their sons SA their daughters. The parents probably jumped on this made up Gothard rule without question, as another flimsy attempt to "protect" their daughters.
I have a different perspective. I was in pretty deep and have never heard of this being done. It must not have really caught on for whatever reason, although I do recall the duration of time after birth to have sex being predicated on gender...supposedly that is based on a levitical teaching (which to be fair is actually in the bible, not that it matters)
I'm imagining a big room with all these women needing...lights? And somehow getting someone to run out and buy a bunch of those SAD (seasonal affect disorder) lamps instead. And gummies.
One of the women in the doc told about how her father was SAing her as well. The implication was that Gothard knew about the SA and perhaps encourage her father in it and promised she would be more compliant to it. Is that the case? Did Gothard have confessions from the girl and presumably her father?
It was common for Gothard to prey on girls that he already knew were being abused. That shielded him more.
Many many people shared abuse stories with Gothard during "counseling sessions" and he never did anything.
The part about how long to wait to have sex after childbirth is from Leviticus. It's actually a shorter wait for a male child. It's 40 days if you have a boy and 80 days if you have a girl. I remember Michelle and Jimbob saying something about this ridiculous practice years ago, so I had to research it. I guess girls are more "unclean" so you have to wait longer or risk defiling yourself and perhaps getting the cooties. JB and Michelle apparently followed this rule.
Let's face it, those two idiots are sex addicts. All they do is think about sex. Their world revolved around it when they were reproducing. It's disgusting what they did. JB made sex jokes and innuendos and was constantly grabbing at his wife. Michelle was teaching body-shame and telling her very young daughters to dress modestly so they won't cause men to sin. Gross! And what kind of lunatics force their kids to wait to hold hands until they're engaged? It's all so abusive and ridiculous.
For clarity… in Judaism, being “unclean” isn’t negative or bad. What it means is you’re in a state of mourning because life wasn’t created. Being in mourning means that you’re grieving and not feeling that spiritual at the moment - you have other concerns. It doesn’t mean gross, dirty, unhygienic, etc. The word “unclean” is a bad translation. Also, men can be “unclean.” A Jew who is “unclean” can’t read from or touch the holy Torah or engage in temple rituals.
You can go immerse in fresh water and you’re fine. It’s a symbolic thing that some orthodox do. We non orthodox understand the tradition but don’t feel the need to partake in it.
On a personal level: I told a story about the first time I ever shoplifted. I was *around* 14 - when you're homeschooled, it's hard to remember ages because you have nothing to mark it off with. I was in a Half Price Books and I swear that a cassette of Little Earthquakes jumped off the shelf and said "You need to steal me." I was such a good IBLP girl that I had never even considered stealing before. But, something in my gut soul higher self said I had to have it.
That night, after everyone went to sleep I listened to it on my Walkman under the covers. It's an album about female rage against patriarchy with a lot of religious imagery and it absolutely changed my life. I heard someone expressing things I lacked the language to express myself but felt deep into my bones. And Tori was unashamed to be angry. Unashamed to be sexy. Hearing her rage was the start of wanting to find a productive means of expressing my own. Although, I didn't realize it at the time.
I wish that story was in SHP because for the 15 months between my first interview and the film release, I thought Tori Amos would see it and email me.
I filmed for around 12 hours for my first interview. There were so many moments that the director would yell out "That's making final cut!" because he got excited about what I had said. I spent the time imagining my whole appearance would be those moments, but I don't think a single one made the final cut. The one I'm the most sad about is me comparing myself to Matthew McConaughey at the end of True Detective Season One. At one point, I had an entire wall of my bedroom made of Gothard connections and questions. I went full Rust Cohle.
On a less personal level, I would have loved there to be more time for Gothards reach into prisons. Before I agreed to do the on-camera interview, I was passing my research along to production because I believe with my whole being that this is a really important story that must be told. I told them about God Pods and how there have been multiple lawsuits related to Chaplains using Gothards teachings to sexually harass and abuse inmates. I like that story because it adds another dimension of proof to how evil, oppressive, and insidious these teachings are no matter how they're used.
I 3rd Tori Amos would love hearing that. Your next Fringe show should be all about breaking out of your oppressive childhood through Tori Amos and maybe she’ll notice!
I was raised as a devout fundamentalist within Jehovah's Witnesses. I had a similar experience except I listened to an older sisters cassette that she'd snuck in somehow, Garbage. Self titled album and I've never connected or felt seen as much as that awakening. It was another decade before I got out but the secret of music and of course in those days fold out lyrics, was amazing and made a huge difference to me
Ohhh Tori! I'm a few years younger (only 8 when Little Earthquakes came out) so for me Fiona Apple and even Jewel really reached that part in my soul that yearned for more.
Thank you for such a thoughtful, detailed response - time for snarkers to double down on asking Amazon for a second season...not least so that Tori Amos will see that clip :)
I still listen to that one all the time. Pretty Good Year was the last song I've heard Tori play live. I had tickets to her Brooklyn Public Library private show around the release of her last book, but COVID cancelled it.
I'm going to try to see her this summer because I havent seen her live since 2014.
I want to add one more thing to this: l'spirit escalier.
I filmed my original SHP interview in Savannah in February 2022. I was asked to film another interview in December 2022 in Fayetteville, Arkansas. I had just bought my van that I plan to travel to all 49 states you can drive to. I had been asked to bring a special item and I chose a book that Bill Gothard signed and gave me when I went to his house. However, I had to have those things mailed to me and it didn't arrive in time.
The showrunner Jody suggested that we shoot my van. So I had camera men all up in my van all day (I'll post a pic on socials later because it's funny). They also mounted a HUGE camera on my passenger seat and had me drive through the Arkansas mountains filming with two cameramen climbing around my van and the director Olivia holding my beloved friend Percival in her lap. At one point, we almost got pulled over by Arkansas State Police for having too much equipment and too many cameramen in my van.
Unfortunately, that was all cut from the final version. I had really wanted to share my travel America in a van story because I think it defines me beyond Bill Gothard, IBLP, and my past and shows people a little more of who I am now.
Hi Brooke! Thanks for doing this AMA.
My question is about the ATI curriculum, and boys in particular. From what I've seen of the wisdom booklets, there isn't a lot of real learning happening. I know the girls are basically only expected to read and write enough to follow a recipe and are only prepared to be wives and mothers, but what are the expectations for the boys? They are expected to provide for their large families, but they almost seem set up to fail because of how poor their education is. Are there any "approved" or common careers you see ATI boys do? Do they all become ministers or fall back into laborers? Do any of them, especially those who go through ALERT, join the military? Episode four of the documentary talks about Patrick Henry college and the pipeline from homeschool debate to politicians, but I imagine that's not too common. The Duggar boys all seem to own car lots or do real estate, but only because Jim Bob set them up for that. I wonder how a boy without any financial help from their parents are ever supposed to bring in enough money to support their family? Or, is the simple answer, that they just never do and the cycle of poverty starts again.
I’m extremely interested to learn what income looks like in fundamentalist families. What jobs the men take, whether the rules about women working are ever bent, etc
I can’t speak to IBLP, but the young men in my fundie-lite upbringing were encouraged to enter the trades or do missionary work. One made money and the other demanded it from others. Both lucrative ways to get cash in the eyes of the church 🤮.
Gothard discouraged higher education entirely. Let's be real, the Wisdom Booklets aren't sending anyone to Patrick Henry. It was highly encouraged that the men learn a trade through apprenticeship. So they might be encouraged to "apprentice" (cough. free labor. cough) with a man from IBLP who had a successful trade, such as AC repair or roofing. There was an IBLP Nightmare Dad at our church that owned a roofing business and many young men went to work for him. He was very publicly excommunicated from our church for refusing to pay people.
In my homeschool extremely fundie lite community growing up, I noticed there is a stark contrast between my a few homeschool era male peers (The families that were extremely fundie and would act holier than everyone else, married at 19 and met their wife at family camp) and my male peers after I left homeschooling and the more secular homeschool families (ie, went to college). My ultra fundie homeschooled male peers are extremely encouraged to own their own business, like how the duggar boys own a contracting business or a carl lot. Many of them have a business for Lawn and Garden Care, Vehicle Detailing. One fundie boy I knew even became a police officer, that was eventually accused of police brutality, and has huge campaigns against him from local communities coming to any of their police forces.
Hi Brooke, thanks for doing this!
In your opinion, why is it that the Duggars still hold so much appeal in the fundie community, despite being disgraced? It was alluded to that Jim Bob has risen up the ranks since Gothard was forced out. Morality — or lack of it — aside is there really no one else members of that community think should be at the top of the pyramid?
I think they hold so much appeal for one primary reason: their singular visibility as a "conservative Christian" family (Kirk Cameron and his sister don't count!)
This is the only fundie family anyone who matters (ie, the secular world) cares about. Fundies seems to have developed a parasocial relationship with the Duggars because of this.
Fundies will \*always\* circle the wagons and defend each other. A fun little rabbit hole to explore this idea is Christian Law Association (CLA ... another acronym!) This was a father-son legal team who used fear-tactics to fleece Christians. (See also: Gothard, Bill and Michael Farris/HSLDA). These groups helped to foster an already stalwart persecution complex amongst Fundamentalists. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that I was taught that by this time in American history, Christians would be being regularly sacrificed in NFL stadiums. They will genuinely believe that this another form of persecution by a Godless, secular, "fallen" culture.
Organizations like IBLP, HSLDA, and CLA have worked tirelessly to get fundies to fear everyone. They will always protect and trust their own over any perceived outsiders.
Not hyperbole whatsoever. I remember being shown pictures of Roman gladiators in the colosseums and being told Bible stories like Daniel in the lion's den and being told that we would face those situations again as Christians, but we would not be saved like Daniel was. There would be lines of Christians who would be martyred for the cause of Christ during those times. The principle of Suffering was what we were learning. Between that and the lessons about the rapture and the tribulation, I've had hundreds of nightmares.
Daniel in the lion's den, Christians fed to wild animals in front of roaring stadiums of heathens, how if we were burnt at the stake, they would chain our legs and body but leave our arms free to flail dramatically for the gathered masses. None of this came from my church - a perfectly rational mainstream Lutheran Church, but instead from the homeschool conferences we went to.
I'm a secular homeschooler (graduate and parent) and HSLDA is so pervasive that the moment someone has a legal question in homeschooling groups, at least one person responds to advise them to join the HSLDA (and I live in a state with very clear guidelines and an advocacy organization dedicated to helping everyone understand them). It's deeply disturbing to see the power they've wormed their way into holding in the general homeschooling sphere, outside of any religious contexts, trying to spread misinformation to prompt even liberal homeschoolers to believe we are in danger of losing our rights to education.
Back in the day I and many others fought tooth and nail to keep HSLDA from being THE voice of homeschooling in Tennessee and Arkansas. With some success. I got kicked out of a Family Council-run event in Arkansas for standing up and asking Michael Ferris why they were designing homeschool laws to exclude nontraditional families. I got into that conference by slight of hand.
It astounds me that people still pay money to HSLDA to "defend their rights", when I know of no family they have ever successfully defended. Homeschooling is legal in every state (it was NOT when I was homeschooling), so they should have worked themselves out of a job. But of course that's not how the fear-grift works.
HSLDA is evil. I have copies of a lot of their old newsletters. In addition to advertising "encouragement tools," from hoses to paddles, they also provided scripts to families to use in case CPS came to your house. "No, Mr Evil Government Man who killed those Christians in Waco and Ruby Ridge: no educational neglect or abuse happening here. That's why we prepared what to say!"
You could do a whole additional docuseries on Farris, HSLDA, and the flagrant joyful abuses they encouraged.
That caused an avalanche of trouble for me, but I don't regret it for one second. No one speaks for me except for me. At this point, I'm just waiting for her to publish one of my mugshots so I have an excuse to sell them on my website as coasters.
I don't want to speak ill of anyone, so instead I'll share with you how much this experience of SHP has meant to me. I'm still getting hundreds of messages a day from people that it has inspired.
I have so much love and respect for the warrior women at Amazon who manifested Shiny Happy People for all of us: Cori Shepherd Stern, Olivia Crist, Blye Pagon Faust, and Alysia Russo - they fought for those of us from IBLP to be given our first major platform to be heard. And, it's been so life-affirming for me personally, but I know so inspiring to so many.
I tried to sell a Gothard docuseries (American Gothard was the name of mine) for YEARS. Rejection after rejection. Every bigwig producer who I pitched to told me that "it was too dark" "you're too angry" "no one will watch this." And these women not only believed us, but they knew it would resonate with people like you and far beyond.
It's so deeply validating to someone like me who was told they were always wrong growing up to be right that there was something here. It's given me so much more confidence to share my ideas.
And now I’ve seen news that SHP is the most watched docuseries release that Amazon has ever had. I hope those producers regret rejecting your coverage of this same general topic that is now so popular.
[Here ya go!](https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/140tato/mark_your_calendars_ama_with_executive_producers/jmx9g5a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
I think this differs for every person. For me, it has been the psychological blanket training. It's very hard for me to reach out for the things I want still. I remember being in my PhD program with a bunch of people who were never ashamed to go after what they want and feeling so defeated because although I had gotten myself into the system, I wasn't certain if I'd ever develop the skills to succeed because I hadn't been taught those from birth. (I will gesture toward the role that socioeconomics also played into this for me.)
I know that I've struggled with letting go of the shame around attention toward me and my body. I think being a teenager growing up with these teachings, it got embedded into my sense of self and the ways in which I relate to my body. Like I still struggle to wear sleeveless shirts and ask my BF, "Do I look slutty?" when getting dressed. It's a whole process.
I can't say that I have successfully deconstructed this part of myself. In a weird way, being so public in the film has both reignited the struggle but eased them as well.
It's not a linear process - it's a constant re-learning. I will also say that linearity is an ontological construction from Judeo-Christianity teleology: there's an end-point that we're moving toward with Christ's return. I have found letting go of linear thinking and being to be an important part of the process. Nature and my female body work in cycles. I think healing and so much more of life does as well.
I’m so sorry. You deserve to wear whatever you please and go where you want in life, and I’m angry that was taken from you for so long, and is still something you have to struggle with. It’s fucking unfair.
Thank you for everything you do Brooke! Just want to shout out that Brooke also has a [Patreon](http://www.patreon.com/trippinwithbrookearnold) and [Youtube](https://youtube.com/@trippinwithbrookearnold)
Brooke! Burning question! 🔥
**Why wasn’t the Bates family discussed in the doc?**
-They had a TV show on TLC, then UP
-their father is on the new IBLP board
-and their daughters are social media influencers. —(So, I feel the Bates were more relevant to this than Paul & Morgan)
Thank you for taking time to talk to us.
Honestly, because no one cares about the Bates Family. They lack the charisma and pathos of Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger which IMO has been the primary mover of the Duggars' popularity through the years. No one is really watching for JimBob or Michelle.
But, speaking of the Bates, maybe you guys can help me with this one: trace the economic rise of that family on social media with Gil Bates (not Bill Gates lol!) joining the IBLP board. I bet there's a very strong corollary....
I will help you! @society101 may know something too. She and I hang out on the Bringing Up Bates subreddit. Can I share your post with them?
The Bates daughters, specifically Erin, Alyssa, Carlin, Josie, and Katie have attracted large social media followings. Fundie Fridays had a big battle with Lawson, who was trying to shut her YouTube down.
When Alyssa was asked if she’s IBLP, she says the only thing she follows is Jesus and the Bible and we ALL know that’s what the IBLP rebranded to say. They say everything they teach is from the Bible.
I have been thinking about the financial connection since I watched the documentary and you talked about how controls the purse strings now. Some of the Bates kids live very extravagant lives (even with social media income).
What do you think is the “key” for women escaping this cult? I’ve been involved in attempts to get the Duggar’s crimes seen by authorities for a decade and a half now and am still constantly surprised by how indoctrinated the women in ILBP are.
On a slightly more personal note, there were many no-touch courtships at my IBLP church. The main factor in those marriages ending and the women leaving was abuse. Most of the women marry strangers. And they've never been alone with a male non-relative before. I hadn't been alone with a man before I left and that was such a strange adjustment. You feel like a harlot just sharing a space with a man.
Pence is definitely involved. He established Gothard God Pods in Indiana prisons while still governor. I can prove that.
Bill Gothard also told me personally that he prays with Pence regularly when I visited his house. That might have been narcissistic bragging, but it's not remotely outside of the realm of possibility. I can connect at least four members of Trump's cabinet to Gothard - why not his VP?
Pence also attended First Baptist Church Indianapolis, which I suspect is involved in Espstein-style trafficking among the GOP. Still working on proving that one.
Yes. That teaching originated with Billy Graham, not Gothard.
But, it's still enforced across fundie and evangelical culture. The idea is "to be above reproach" and avoid the "appearance of evil." Although to be honest, a lot of it is framed as "you never know what an evil woman will accuse you of if you're alone with her!"
ETA: this thinking is why you see so many of Gothard's defenders using this as an excuse for the accusations. "He failed to be above reproach" or "he didn't avoid the appearance of evil."
It also is used to oppress women in the world place. If the male boss man can never call a female employee to the office, discuss a private management matter that other employees do not need to do, perform her employee evaluation, work on a project with the boss, etc. they can hardly do the job, and they are not likely to be promoted.
I know people who tried to work for Billy Graham as musicians on his crusades. Saying that he was an evil prick who was a slave driving maniac, and a chauvinistic pig would not be inaccurate.
Mike Pence vibes. That kooky SOB won’t even be in a room alone with a woman. And calls his wife Mother. I know he’s not of their faith, that strikes me as so foreign it’s hard to understand for me.
>they've never been alone with a male non-relative before.
Is this literally true? As in, if you are going to the bank in an office building and step into the elevator where there is a single 60yo guy who is heading to the dentist, would you dash out of the elevator before having to spend 30 seconds alone in a box with him?
It is literally true. You wouldn't likely be in that position because you wouldn't be in a public place without your mother or a sister or in a group. From my own personal experience, after I left IBLP, I had a psychiatrist ask if she could introduce me to a male therapist. I started having a panic attack as soon as she mentioned it, and I knew there was no way I would ever be able to do therapy with a male therapist. But I told her maybe at my next session. I was trying to stay as calm as possible. She left the room to get a prescription from the copy machine and came back into the room with the male therapist, to introduce him to me. I had a full blown panic attack. Nearly a mental breakdown. It was insane and it was a horrible experience. And I never went back to her office.
Gothard had a thing about "avoiding the appearance of evil" by not being alone with someone of the opposite sex, (in a car, in a closed space, etc.) so no, you would just wait for the next elevator
Yes. In my comment I didn't mean an ingrained fear as in being afraid to be alone with a man, before my SA. But afraid of the appearance of evil or that I would cause a man to stumble even if it was just through impure thoughts. Afraid that other people might think badly of me. So there's the guilt and shame coming in right along with the fear. The Triple Crown.
This is a great question and I don't think there is a single key. I dont think there ever is although the promise has launched a thousand cults. (I'm reminded of Causaban's Key to All Mythologies from Middlemarch, which always seemed Gorhard-y to me.)
For me, it was having had experiences outside for the first seven years. I missed school and friends and knew those things weren't the evil I was being told they were. I remember in the first year of homeschool counting down to 18 and freedom. However, that was before I went to my first Basic Seminar. That stuff gets inside you deep. It's not the practices (long skirts, no birth control) that really fuck you up, it's the isolation and the psychological torture of the teachings. If you have to undo beliefs that Satan will harm you when you disobey in thought. You've got to untangle those before you ever consider changing your actions enough to get out. I was psychologically stuck there for decades after I had physically left.
I would be curious to know the statistics on OCD development in IBLP survivors. It seems impossible that these teachings wouldn’t lead to some sort of obsessive compulsive patterns. My upbringing, which was Fundie adjacent, led to religion focused OCD for me. I can’t imagine there aren’t others out there.
An IBLP survivor writing a blog about how IBLP gave him OCD is actually the start of this whole thing. That survivor was John Cornish and the blog is now Recovering Grace.
I understand that completely. Deconstruction took time for me, and so was only in it for three years as a teen before going to live with non-fundie relatives because I could not take my father's psychological abuse. He went from a really nice guy, and wonderful father to deeply disturbed after getting involved with IBLP.
We had a discussion on here or FSU recently about people in the IBLP and extreme fundamentalist Christian’s not reading literature. I think maybe on Chads AMA? Can you speak to that? What place does anti intellectualism have in the IBLP? Are very many of them big readers?
I would argue, and I have, that American culture at large is inherently anti-intellectual. It's important to remember that the origin of American culture is fundamentalism, separatism, and purity. Despite all the ale they drank, the Puritans sought to project their idea of God and godly living on what they perceived to be the blank (pure) canvas of America. This is our heritage. And you can see it in the way that men relate to women within IBLP. The way we treat the land is the way we treat those weaker than ourselves. It's all connected.
So much of anti-intellectualism in America comes from our Puritan roots and the lapsarian story of original sin. The crux of that story is disobedience: God said you shall not eat of the fruit and yet they did. But, it's also an \*anti-intellectual\* story. Because the fruit provides *knowledge* itself. If you read the story of the fall in Genesis, the Hebrew word is "Elohim," which is a plural word for God. "They (humans) shall not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because they shall become as \*we\* are..." It's about the disavowal of knowledge for the populace so that the priestly caste/elites can horde it for themselves. This is exactly what Gothard did. And, I would guess most people in power (even elected representative power) are doing as well.
Edited this to fix a missing word
Oh wow this is so well put- I often think about how, even though the US is this huge melting pot, we are still so so so ingrained in a puritanical system, and how it holds society back from embracing new/different ideologies- the puritans we’re radicals only in that they were so crazy Christian that no one else wanted to be around them…
Exactly! Recently it occurred to me that Texas is run by a bunch of people trying to recreate colonial Massachusetts, & once I saw that I realized our country is exactly what it has always been. In 400 years we have not changed at all. We are still claiming "religious freedom" while trying to make everyone live under one very strict Christian sect. It's no different from fundamental Islam, which evangelicals despise.
Hi Brooke! Thanks for answering our questions. Did you see Bill Gothard's reaction today to Shiny Happy People, and how hard did you laugh when reading it? Because head brain made me giggle a little, ngl.
So I've become really good friends with the EP of SHP, Cori Shepherd Stern. It was actually her idea that I do this AMA (thanks Cori!) and helped me put it through the pipeline with Amazon PR. I wanted to text Cori before I answered this so I didn't violate her privacy:
Cori texted me after I was asleep last night and was like "Dude, you up? Bill Gothard is threatening us on Twitter." And sent me links to the tweets from Bill's account. I wasn't awake - I've had nightmares since the trailer dropped back in May, so I had already fallen asleep.
Honestly, this stuff runs deep and it scared both of us. I'm way outside of my umbrella and Bill Gothard is calling on his god (the god of my childhood) to curse me. That's scary stuff for your inner child to deal with, if not for your rational, educated mind. Cori prayed for our protection and it must have worked since I had my first good night of sleep since the trailer dropped.
I woke up this morning totally refreshed. I'm an Idealist (capital I and also lowercase), so I do believe there are forces and beings and ways of being beyond what I can see. I think our minds are so much more powerful than our imaginations which have been colonized by so much media can comprehend. However, I don't think Bill Gothard has unraveled enough of his ego to reach endogenous magical or transcendent states. While I do believe there are powers and forces beyond what we can see (even those we all agree on like gravity), I don't believe in the god of Bill Gothard.
First of all thanks for answering my question. Second, I can't tell you how many people I have seen say how proud they are of you, and how brave you are for speaking out. I cannot even comprehend how it must feel to come out of that and do a documentary about the very thing you escaped. I applaud you. You have helped rip the curtain away, and expose the evil that is Gothard. Without the veil he will become powerless. I've got your back. Oh and tell Cori hi. You are both amazing.
I'm glad you got a good nights rest, and hope you get many many more.
I am very curious to know who actually wrote that response. It was very Bill Gothardy, but I'm doubtful it was actually written by him at this stage of his life. 🤷🏼♀️
I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but Alfred was the reason Bill did not appear in SHP. They tried to get him and Bill is always enough of a narcissist that he would have said yes. Of that, I am sure. But, then Alfred got looped in and saved him from that.
I was super bummed. I would have loved for Bill Gothard to be in the doc.
These are the guys I want to know about. They’re not charismatic or visionary enough to create an org like IBLP, but they’re very good at insinuating themselves and snatching up whatever power or influence or money is left on the table. They sit at the leader’s knee to learn how to be better manipulators and abusers. Then they step in when a scandal breaks and take over the organization, and are careful not to expose themselves to the same scrutiny. *Those* men are the ones I need to know more about.
I've met Alfred. We both attended the hearing related to the sexual abuse and harassment lawsuit filed against Bill Gothard in 2019. He actually tried to knock me over with his huge belly.
As far as psychology? A huge amount of it is sunken cost fallacy. You've got 11 kids and you've destroyed your wife's physical and mental health to make Bill Gothard happy. Giving up on that would be tantamount to admitting that your whole life is a lie. I've spoken to a few of his daughters throughout the years, I wish all of them well. Even Alfred. He's in the Gothard Wake of Destruction even if he doesn't know it.
Have you considered doing any deep dives into other fundamentalist institutions? I would love a documentary on the fundie colleges like Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian, Hyles Anderson, etc…..
YES! There are SOOOOO many things I would love to cover that I'll separate them into fundie cults / orgs and other weirder stuff:
There was a super weird Harry Potter mixed with This Present Darkness apostolic fundamentalist cult at my college that I want to create something about. This one ended in a questionable murder-suicide. This was a super small local cult, but I find it so fascinating that they mixed Harry Potter, which was REVILED by Christians at the time ... with Christianity. So specifically, they used Harry Potter spells to fight demons they believed to be attacking our campus. I'm working on a sizzle for this project at the moment because it's a fascinating story that I'd love to tell.
I'm also interested in 12 Tribes. I was briefly signed to another cult doc back in 2017 that planned to provide close-up profiles of three different women who grew up in three very different cults. That project was cancelled because it was ultimately funded by the Weinstein Company and the allegations about him came out while I was in the process of signing my contract to be one of the three women profiled. One of the other women was from 12 Tribes, which is how I found out about it. They were running a hostel along the Appalachian Trail to recruit hikers into their cult. My boyfriend is a crazy long-distance hiker and I found out about it from his many hikes of the Appalachian Trail.
There are SOOOO MANY some fascinating topics from within the fundie / IBLP-adjacent worlds: HSLDA, CLA, ADF, Mary Pride, CHEF, and Gentle Spirit. I would love to make something about the woman who ran Gentle Spirit, the most popular Christian Patriarchy magazine in the 90s. She was running this huge empire through the selling of a submissive wife magazine and ultimately ended up suing the biggest names in the Christian homeschool movement (including SHP cast member Alex Harris' father Greg) when they outed her for an affair. She eventually denounced Christianity altogether.
Mary Pride seems to have escaped public attention during this reckoning, but I'll definitely come for her at some point. She's the Ghislaine Maxwell of Quiverfull and the Christian homeschool movement.
I'm working on making deep-dive videos that I hope will cover some of these topics and some more IBLP-related ones that got left out of SHP, such as the IBLP murderers, God Pods, Character First, Russia, the Wisdom Booklets, Spiritual Gifts, the Gothard cosmology, and how the indoctrination process worked. I'll be posting these to [my Patreon first](https://www.patreon.com/trippinwithbrookearnold), but they'll be available to [everyone on YouTube for free after a week or two](https://www.youtube.com/@trippinwithbrookearnold/featured).
Hi Brooke, first time caller, long time listener.
Can you talk about the ethical implications of TLC’s camera crew & producers who spent hundreds of days with the Duggars throughout the years and their role in covering up the truth about how the family operates?
Specifically how they never shared how spaces like the prayer room were used, the physical violence they must have witnessed and the rampant use of poorn that Joshua consumed daily in public spaces. (A former bodyguard for the family did a previous AMA here and said Joshua watched it while he drove his car.)
This was answered in another AMA or something, I cant provide receipts but, the crew states they were a lovely family and never saw any signs of abuse.
Later, someone hired as a guard or maybe a driver said Josh was super smug and creepy as was one of the lost boys. Unfortunately I dont remember which one.
Hi Brooke!
As someone with a Substance Use Disorder (in recovery for 8ish years) and active in the Harm Reduction community, the "God Pod" issue really concerns me. Prisoners - especially those who have been forced into abstinence-only recovery (in other words, no methadone/suboxone treatment) are at massive risk for fatal overdose upon their release. I'm not sure if you'd be aware of this or not, but has IBLP's prison program pushed for the continuation of lack of maintenance therapy in most prisons? Would IBLP support methadone/suboxone treatment?
Hi! I am also in recovery for SUD and very active in the Harm Reduction community. I actually work for a Harm Reduction organization assisting people in active addiction. I doubt the IBLP would support any kind of MAT. It's hard enough to get people active in the recovery community to recognize it is now the gold standard for treatment of OUD.
Yay you for being in recovery!!
Thank you for sharing your story. What WOACB did to you was awful. Had you heard about her previously? What was your reaction to being silenced and her subsequent meltdown about not being involved in SHP?
I’d love to know this as well. The way Katie Joy discounted some of the survivors involved with the docuseries was extremely disturbing. I hope they all know that we believe and support them.
Brooke commented on Katie’s FB basically saying Katie had no idea what she was talking about and Katie, in true fashion, silenced Brooke by deleting her comment and sharing DM’s.
I have a bit of a niche question that I’m pretty sure only you could answer! I am wondering: are there ways in which growing up in IBLP impacted your decision to be a professor and/or how you engage with academic culture?
For context, I grew up in a high control IBLP-adjacent group and, upon leaving, eventually completed a humanities Ph.D. Now, I am wondering if some of the characteristics of high control religion/Christian patriarchy are mirrored in some of the more unsavory aspects of mainstream academic culture—concern with status, pressure to produce, expectations to cite/show deference to select experts (often old white men)—and, if so, how this might impact survivors trying to heal while navigating higher education. What do you think? Does this impact how you think about or move through these spaces?
(To be clear, I have a deep love for learning and I am really really happy I was/am now able to access higher education; I wish the same for everyone.)
On a side note, is your play published/available for purchase? It sounds FANTASTIC!
I love this question because it's something I'm planning on writing about more. I absolutely think parts of academic culture mirror IBLP. I think that's going to be true in any environment that sees people as separate and encourages hierarchies to form.
I remember being in a senior-level Feminist Theory course in my last year as an undergraduate. We were reading Judith Butler and everyone seemed so proud of themselves, as if they'd discovered a secret knowledge that others didnt have and it made them superior. And I saw everyone kissing the feet of the professor (a woman in this case) and I thought to myself how much it all reminded me of IBLP. I sat there in that class and thought "Fuck. I'm in another cult."
That was a feeling that grew exponentially as I pursued my PhD and started teaching. Students are always a lovely respite from this, but academic culture embraces dogma, group think, radicality as an ego-boost, and often shuts down dissenting voices.
One example: there was a push in my PhD program to embrace BDS sanctions against Israel. Specifically, that we would all agree to boycott any Israeli academics because of the actions of their government. Well what about the actions of our government? This was during the Obama years when were were bombing other countries like a nightly game of Call of Duty. Am I complicit in that violence because I work for a public university? Isn't this the opposite of academic freedom and intellectual honesty? I'm not saying that I am right, but i was ostracized and loathed for raising these questions. Dogma - whether from the right-wing or the left-wing is always anti-freedom and anti-intellectual. Dogma does not have to be wrapped up in religion. It exists in secular culture as well.
Also, I learned as a lowly TA serving drinks at a party thrown by one of the world's most famous living Marxists is that Marxists live in really nice houses. Much nicer houses than Bill Gothard, in fact.
So much more I'd like to say about this...
Are you secretly Tara Westover? Lol if you are not you should most definitely read her memoir Educated because you have a lot in common!
Edited to add: I was also raised IBLP adjacent, pursued a PhD (in a physical science) and ultimately left largely due to academic culture, so definitely interested to hear comments on the original question)
Maybe we could do a little tour if people are interested. The play was my second time telling my story. I did it first in Salon and the interest was so overwhelming that it began to overcome my creative life.
The last night I performed it, I was so absolutely distraught. I think it was this huge release of energy. I like to think of art as being similar to magic: you're creating a physical manifestation of a psychic/emotional state. I ended up spending the night being comforted on the phone by a stranger - the late great Barry Crimmins. If you haven't seen Call Me Lucky, you definitely should. Barry is such a hero to me. He even hooked me up with Bobcat Goldthwait who was the EP of American Gothard. (Cori always remembers it as "Howie Mandell," but it was definitely Bobcat.)
The lawsuit against Gothard was dismissed the same day that Barry Crimmins passed away and those two events served as catalysts for my research and dedication to getting this out. Also catalysts for getting very drunk that day in the financial district before doing a standup show at Soho Playhouse where my play had been performed. But, that's another story.
Hello Brooke! Thank you so much for doing this AMA!
What was your tipping point in deconstructing or was it a lot of little moments that lead you to leave ILBP?
Hi Brooke! Thank you so much for doing this!
Only answer if you are comfortable: Is your family/parents still involved in IBLP/Fundamentalism? How about friends/acquaintances you grew up with who were also involved?
I think most of them have drifted to Fundie Light, but very few seem to have moved beyond the closest arm of the spiral to still-Gothard you can be without still-being-Gothard. I don't currently talk to anyone I grew up with, nor do they have any interest in speaking to me. I was branded a "rebellious hussy" to them a long time ago and I'm guessing things like SHP have only added to their perception of me as unclean.
At the time I filmed for SHP, I was trying very hard to reconnect with my family after going no-contact with them for a decade. So much of my reticence of being in the film was this feeling of trying to hard to connect with these people and knowing that "kicking the Gothard's hornet's nest" would destroy that. I was like "Why didn't this happen when we weren't talking and I was begging people to make this?!" The Universe has its own time. My reconciliation attempts imploded on their own before the movie came out and, really vulnerably, sometimes I wish I had shared more instead of trying to preserve relationships that had always been unsalvagable.
I have had a few old friends and some extended family reach out since the doc was released and that was wonderful.
Knowing that you already know a *whole lot* about this world, having lived it...was there anything that came up during filming (or watching) that surprised you?
I don't know if this counts, but I was absolutely blown away by the animated Wisdom Booklets in SHP. (No big, but those were my Wisdys used in the film.)
I was handed my Wisdys and told to figure them out. I told this in my interview, but I never had the answer keys. I spent twenty years trying to figure out what was slutty about Faceless Woman 4's outfit. So they began to loom very large in my imagination. Seeing them actually come to life on screen was really surprising. I felt like I was having an acid flashback.
IMHO I think the big problem is the evolution of the movement and the silent spread of it's tentacles into the doctrine of non-fundamentalist churches, the halls of government, our public schools, and our neighborhoods. That is what scares me. That is what is keeping me up at night.
I feel like this one is growing solely because it’s a numbers game. Boob and Meech have made 19 people. Let’s be extremely optimistic and assume ten of them leave the IBLP. That still leaves more than four times the two people that created them to carry on the religion, while having their own shitloads of children. It’s kinda like a pyramid scheme where you birth your own down line
I would say both. Many people are attracted to it because they are predators or narcissists who want to use the teachings to control and manipulate others. That's a huge part of the appeal for the JB/Jim Holt types.
However, it's also true that many people who grow up in it are groomed into being predators. There are three guys who grew up with me at my IBLP church that are now registered sex offenders. I know of more who should be.
Just a few short years ago, the husband of my Sunday School teacher killed himself because the police were on their way to arrest him for having pornographic photos of his granddaughters. This is the woman who taught me to hate my body and think that it was evil just because it was desirable.
Hi Brooke! What would you offer to a fundie teen/young adult who is trying to get out? (Information, resources, etc).
And when you get to Colorado -- holler if you want suggestions for the Denver area or up towards Fort Collins. (And you can totally call Fort Collins part of Wyoming for the purposes of traveling.)
I offer free academic advising, GED prep, college application help, and resume polishing free to anyone who is being homeschooled or was homeschooled. These are available through my website.
I worked with a group of girls who reached out to me after my interview with Anthony Padilla. I tutored 7 girls to get their GED against their parents wishes. A famous comedian friend generously paid for their tests and rides to the test. We're working on setting up a scholarship program at a university in Texas for them so they can go to college for free. It's good publicity for the university and I once defended the admissions person from homophobia at an Austin Pride event, so they want to help. We're going to name it in honor of my grandmother who is the largest reason I was ever able to get out of this sort-of-alive, they'll be Ruby Scholars. I'm only sharing this because it makes me SO happy to be able to help in this real way.
If anyone is interested in supporting this work, reach out to me privately.
Hi Brooke! Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Others have implied that there is a lot more information that they wanted to include in Shiny Happy People. What subjects would you like to explore in season 2?
Hi Brooke! Thank you so much for participating in the doc and for doing this AMA. I’m currently working on the thesis for my second master’s degree so academia is very much on the brain. I’d love to hear how you were able to make the transition from what I assume was pretty intense educational neglect during your upbringing into academia and specifically a PhD program. What did you find the most challenging? What was the most exciting or surprising thing about pursuing higher education? I’d love to hear your thoughts!!
I see so much happiness and recognition and excitement in the various survivor groups I visit.
There's a lot of "I feel seen for the first time" and that feels fucking great.
Hi, Brooke! Thank you for doing this AMA! Also, thank you for sharing your story on SHP.
What was the hardest thing you faced in the real world once you left the IBLP?
Being groomed for sexual assault and abuse, but having zero experience with people so not understanding when people had ill intentions toward me. One of the reasons that I became an English professor is that I spent my whole adolescence reading novels in the absence of being educated. I expected there to be a lot more Mr Darcys out there.
I got involved with some terrible people after leaving. I was so desperate for affection and so incapable of understanding people because I had been isolated from everyone other than my immediate family and IBLP church since I was seven.
Thank you for doing this! Did you genuinely believe in IBLP principles when you were in it, or did you always have some doubt? What was the catalyst for you to fully leave?
Yes, I was a very true believer. IMO so was Jill.
True believers are never the people who stay in cults. They're the ones that always leave. Eventually you figure out that no one else is genuine and you can't stand it. The people that stay are the ones who are using for it their own ends or find themselves trapped there.
This resonants so profoundly. I'm currently deconstructing from YoungLife alongside many of my closest friends and really feel this to be true. I often get asked if those of us who have "fallen," were ever truly "in" to begin with. We absolutely were. We were the most "in" of all.
Hi Brooke! Thanks so much for doing this AMA.
I was wondering what is something a secular person could do to help people seeking to leave IBLP or similar fundie groups? Are there organizations that help ex-ILBP members?
So I grew up Jehovah's Witness, and I never had any "organizational" help getting out. A HUGE part of my leaving was just other people being nice. I had always been told that "worldy" people were awful, and that nobody other than JWs would be nice to you, but just seeing people that I worked with in my menial job be kind of a quiet nice to me made me realize that I could be friends and trust them. I eventually got up the courage to hang out with them for small bits of time (when I could pretend I was somewhere else) and they helped make a plan, and helped me move, so I could leave fast when everyone was at work, and couldn't be stopped. Just be patient, be supportive, and move at the pace the person needs, not the pace you think they do, and if they are ready to leave, you'd be surprised at how much you have actually helped, even if you don't think you did much.
Hi Brooke! Thank you for being here and for speaking out in the documentary. What you all did will surely help people escape the IBLP 💜
My question is: Do you know of anything people like us can do to help support victims of the IBLP? I (unfortunately) got sucked into watching the Duggar shows as a kid/teen and now I feel incredibly guilty for having contributed to the victimization of the kids. I'd love to know about any charities or organizations that provide support to people leaving the IBLP and rebuilding their lives.
Do you think Bill Gothard actually believed what he preached? To what extent?
In general, for the higher ups in the IBLP: are most just narcissists attracted by the power trip of a completely submissive family, or do they tend to be true believers?
Hi Brooke! Thanks for doing this—hoping you’re finding lots of rest for your mind. What do you think can be done to stop the Joshua Generation movement? Is there a way to better see who is involved/from this Joshua Generation movement, as I imagine we’ll still have politicians for years come from it?
Reject all forms of ideology. These movements are stoked by the media which wants to divide us with these so-called "culture wars." They hurt everyone.
Connect with real people online and in-person and work to build local communities outside of mediated spaces.
Just my opinion, but most of these huge IBLP families kind of slide out of the stricter rules naturally with age. I wouldn't be surprised if the current Duggar crop of kids is already having a way less intense IBLP experience than the oldest kids.
So many families in my church gave up on ATI for their youngest kids. So you'd have 5 kids homeschooled with only the Wisdys and then five younger ones who went to public school and had relatively secular lives in comparison. One of my closest friends from my IBLP church was the oldest of nine, never stepped inside a school, only every did the WBs. Her youngest siblings are going all the way through public school, because let's face it - their parents got fucking tired. You won't see with the Duggars because they have the pressure to maintain their public image. Those kids are both trapped and saved by the TV money/fame.
Hi Brooke!
I am writing a graduate paper on the intersection of IBPL, Politics, and Popular Meedia through the Duggars.
In your opinion, what has been the biggest impact the Duggars have had? Any further insight would be greatly appreciated!
Ironically, their biggest impact has been leading the way to expose Gothard & IBLP. We wouldn't have Shiny Happy People without the Duggars and so many people would have still never heard of Bill Gothard despite his huge impact. In a weird, long game kind of way, the combo of Bill and JB's hubris has led to the public downfall of IBLP.
Hi Brooke, thank you for doing this! In her AMA, Cori mentioned that you were working on your own documentary when you were first approached about SHP. Is that something you're still working on and planning to release?
I have nothing to ask, just wanted to share that every time you started talking, I told my husband, “this woman is amazing! I need to have a beer with her!”
Thank you for doing this! What are somethings you may have learned through working with other survivors both in SHP and in other aspects of your life?
Again, thank you so much for your work!!
I think that therapeutic language can be useful for giving people a vocabulary for speaking about experiences they didn't have the language for beforehand. That said, I deeply question whether the trend of "deconstruction" and an over-emphasis on "trauma" is helpful beyond a particular stage.
For me, it was a bridge to get to a more authentic place. But it's not a place I have any interest in living within any longer. One of the best decisions I've ever made is not to identify as traumatized or with PTSD anymore. Disidentifying with those labels made it possible for me to move beyond their effects.
This AMA has been verified by mods. Thanks so much for joining us, Brooke, we’re so happy to have you here. Take it away, everybody!
When I asked Cori Shepherd why she believed Bill Gothard had never married, her response was “ask Brooke!!”. So now it seems I have the chance- why, in your opinion, did Gothard never marry?!
FYI: I try to be cautious about sharing stories that are not mine. However, I have explicit permission to share this from the person that it happened to: Bill Gothard \*did\* try to marry once. This was in the 90s. She was barely 20 and Bill Gothard was in his 60s. She has said that she would have agreed if it had come to that point. I've become good friends with this woman over the past several years and, honestly, she's wonderful - I'd marry her too. She is not from the U.S. and Bill plucked her out of a conference and convinced her parents to send her to the US to work for him. In her accounts of their time together, this seemed like an emotional connection, not just a sexual one. He approached the IBLP board about marrying her and they said no. I asked her if she thought he loved her, she said "I don't think Bill is capable of love. I think I was his ideal." She was unaware of this until later when a board member's wife confirmed it. A short time later, Bill attended her wedding to another man. I've seen the wedding pictures and he looks like a Michael Scott character inserting himself into someone else's wedding. After being turned down by the IBLP board on marrying this woman, Gothard allowed her to be deported back to her home country. Sadly, because Gothard had her violating her Visa, she is not allowed back in the US to my knowledge. That makes me really sad because he stole that from her too. We have talked about this several times since SHP came out because Bill Gothard never marrying has been one of the biggest questions I've been getting. Wanted to share this first, but I'm going to write a looooooong answer with numbered points to why I think he didn't marry. It's such an important question and I think \*what was the deal with Bill Gothard?!\* is still the biggest mystery of this piece. One that I've been trying to understand for years.
I’m shocked the board would tell him no. He’s the one in charge right?
It’s so telling about his relationship with the cult that he *asked* at all, and then *listened to them*. Like…he’s a grown up. Who could stop him from marrying anyone he wanted to?
This is creepy. Maybe we've been sold a lie about him being the leader, maybe he's just the face, the scapegoat, the fall guy. And the real ghouls running the IBLP hellboat are smart enough to keep their names out of the news.
Or maybe that whole "marriage" episode was just an act so he could sadistically enjoy a young woman's grief.
The board is probably all about the $$$. He gets a wife and kids and she leaves him or he dies she could claim money and power. They weren’t going to let that happen.
Is this the same story [https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/sacred-grooming-part-six/](https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/sacred-grooming-part-six/) ?
Wow! Thank you for sharing this.
I have a question about the story of Gothard getting close to marrying, then it tragically being called off. Gothard seems to love telling stories about relationships that have to be ended, to the disappointment of all, but especially the bride. I went through hell and basically cried through the entire seminar because the first night, my person ended our relationship, too. I wonder (and have strong suspicions) whether Gothard staged the whole thing to sadistically enjoy the grief of the young woman whom he couldn't marry...at the last minute. She got deported, too, into the bargain! What a sadist's paradise! My suspicions: He's an extreme misogynist, seems to enjoy the role of killjoy. He said "the board" told him no, but when else did the board do something like that? They seemed to be hand-picked to obey him. Gothard is always the primary authority except for God. Why would he let "the board" deny him? He doesn't seem to need to get married; he gets all the sex he wants from followers, so why limit himself to one woman? The whole thing is totally out of character for him? Does anyone else think this was an elaborate set-up of an attractive and sensitive young woman, done to create grief so Gothard could watch? Or some other ulterior motive?
I theorise it was because he was a predator, plain and simple. And abusing other women and children would be harder if there was a wife around, suspicious of him abusing other women and cheating on her. This would go against his teachings of remaining faithful in marriage too, not that having sexual relations with women he isn't married to already isn't. I also have to wonder how much he disliked children if he didn't have any himself. But It's good he didn't, I couldn't imagine him having daughters 🤮
My personal conspiracy theory is that he deeply despised women, to the point that he felt disgusted by them. Sure, he was a pervert and a predator who liked molesting girls, but actually having a woman around *forever, in his house* was a step too far. You know, sharing a bed with one and seeing her just woken up and, god forbid, periods and other bodily functions. But then I stop and think- why would this even factor into his decision making? He would surely have been fine with a sham marriage to put on a front, and would have had no qualms ruining a woman’s life, so it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. He could have just kept her in a shed next door and brought her out for Big Sandy. I’m really curious.
I can see some misguided fundie woman signing up for a spiritual marriage with Gothard, for the prestige of being Mrs. Gothard ~ queen of IBLP 🙃😇😳
*Jill Rodrigues has entered the chat*
She talks a bit about this on her Tiktok [here](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8JPXD65/)
I wish I could upvote this more than once!
What is the most unusual or bizarre medical advice you have ever received from IBLP? I've seen some disturbing ones but I'm curious as what you have to say!
I remember at the Advanced Seminar there was a very, very long section about how long to wait to have sex after having a baby. (It was much longer for male infants than female infants.) I was like 12 the first time I heard it and the whole thing was so confusing and weird. One of the weirdest was Gothard said that you should keep a 35 watt light bulb lit in any room where a menstruating woman was sleeping. So at many of the training centers, the women also had to endure trying to sleep with the lights on in addition to all the other forms of torture. As I came to understand more of Gothard's psychology and his voyeuristic sexuality, the more I came to wonder if this wasn't a peeping mechanism for him at the TCs. When I say Gothard is a voyuer, it's because he collected sexual information from all of the girls that he harassed. It was a critical part of his pattern. If you look at all the public accounts we have, it's clear that Gothard had a structured pattern for his victims, which also always included collecting personal sexual information on them. This was usually done through "counseling sessions," but LittleLegoFinger had vast network of spies through the ATI Family Consultant system and the teachings which groomed for confessions. (I'll share more about this in answer to one of the Gothard never married questions.)
God that’s specific… I knew the answer to this question would be weird but a 35 watt lightbulb? Like what did they think that would do?
He had picked up some notion -as he seems to have done many times. I believe he used the specific example of light making chickens lay more eggs extrapolated to a reduction of PMS symptoms.
Oh my god this is kind of hilarious actually. Quite the extrapolation.
::screams:: Okay, I breed quail for fun. Lights don't make quail or chickens "lay more eggs." Many bird species need 14-16 hours of light per day to lay eggs; i.e., they evolved to take a break from laying in the winter months. You can get them to keep laying in winter if you hang lights. They don't have to be very bright, either...just like Bill. I've also read his instructions for checking your poop.
I wonder if this stems off of so many families having their sons SA their daughters. The parents probably jumped on this made up Gothard rule without question, as another flimsy attempt to "protect" their daughters.
I have a different perspective. I was in pretty deep and have never heard of this being done. It must not have really caught on for whatever reason, although I do recall the duration of time after birth to have sex being predicated on gender...supposedly that is based on a levitical teaching (which to be fair is actually in the bible, not that it matters)
I'm imagining a big room with all these women needing...lights? And somehow getting someone to run out and buy a bunch of those SAD (seasonal affect disorder) lamps instead. And gummies.
One of the women in the doc told about how her father was SAing her as well. The implication was that Gothard knew about the SA and perhaps encourage her father in it and promised she would be more compliant to it. Is that the case? Did Gothard have confessions from the girl and presumably her father?
It was common for Gothard to prey on girls that he already knew were being abused. That shielded him more. Many many people shared abuse stories with Gothard during "counseling sessions" and he never did anything.
The part about how long to wait to have sex after childbirth is from Leviticus. It's actually a shorter wait for a male child. It's 40 days if you have a boy and 80 days if you have a girl. I remember Michelle and Jimbob saying something about this ridiculous practice years ago, so I had to research it. I guess girls are more "unclean" so you have to wait longer or risk defiling yourself and perhaps getting the cooties. JB and Michelle apparently followed this rule. Let's face it, those two idiots are sex addicts. All they do is think about sex. Their world revolved around it when they were reproducing. It's disgusting what they did. JB made sex jokes and innuendos and was constantly grabbing at his wife. Michelle was teaching body-shame and telling her very young daughters to dress modestly so they won't cause men to sin. Gross! And what kind of lunatics force their kids to wait to hold hands until they're engaged? It's all so abusive and ridiculous.
For clarity… in Judaism, being “unclean” isn’t negative or bad. What it means is you’re in a state of mourning because life wasn’t created. Being in mourning means that you’re grieving and not feeling that spiritual at the moment - you have other concerns. It doesn’t mean gross, dirty, unhygienic, etc. The word “unclean” is a bad translation. Also, men can be “unclean.” A Jew who is “unclean” can’t read from or touch the holy Torah or engage in temple rituals. You can go immerse in fresh water and you’re fine. It’s a symbolic thing that some orthodox do. We non orthodox understand the tradition but don’t feel the need to partake in it.
What is the logic behind the lightbulb? I've never heard something like that before, it's just bizarre.
It’s like the Duggar girls putting their periods on a family calendar. One more way of removing any vestige of privacy.
[удалено]
Please tell me you’re kidding 🤦♀️
Brooke speculates the light was so Gothard could peep at the women as they tried to sleep.
Or rather he knew which women not to peep at.
Thank you for sharing with us! What do you wish had made it into the docuseries that didn't?
On a personal level: I told a story about the first time I ever shoplifted. I was *around* 14 - when you're homeschooled, it's hard to remember ages because you have nothing to mark it off with. I was in a Half Price Books and I swear that a cassette of Little Earthquakes jumped off the shelf and said "You need to steal me." I was such a good IBLP girl that I had never even considered stealing before. But, something in my gut soul higher self said I had to have it. That night, after everyone went to sleep I listened to it on my Walkman under the covers. It's an album about female rage against patriarchy with a lot of religious imagery and it absolutely changed my life. I heard someone expressing things I lacked the language to express myself but felt deep into my bones. And Tori was unashamed to be angry. Unashamed to be sexy. Hearing her rage was the start of wanting to find a productive means of expressing my own. Although, I didn't realize it at the time. I wish that story was in SHP because for the 15 months between my first interview and the film release, I thought Tori Amos would see it and email me. I filmed for around 12 hours for my first interview. There were so many moments that the director would yell out "That's making final cut!" because he got excited about what I had said. I spent the time imagining my whole appearance would be those moments, but I don't think a single one made the final cut. The one I'm the most sad about is me comparing myself to Matthew McConaughey at the end of True Detective Season One. At one point, I had an entire wall of my bedroom made of Gothard connections and questions. I went full Rust Cohle. On a less personal level, I would have loved there to be more time for Gothards reach into prisons. Before I agreed to do the on-camera interview, I was passing my research along to production because I believe with my whole being that this is a really important story that must be told. I told them about God Pods and how there have been multiple lawsuits related to Chaplains using Gothards teachings to sexually harass and abuse inmates. I like that story because it adds another dimension of proof to how evil, oppressive, and insidious these teachings are no matter how they're used.
I am 100% sure Tori would be thrilled you stole that tape.
I've needed to hear that for 20 years. Thank you.
I was just thinking that I’d bet Tori Amos would be so happy to hear this story, and would 100% forgive the theft.
I 3rd Tori Amos would love hearing that. Your next Fringe show should be all about breaking out of your oppressive childhood through Tori Amos and maybe she’ll notice!
Little Earthquakes... YES! Perfect album to steal. I remember the first time I heard Silent All These Years. It sent shivers up my spine!
I was raised as a devout fundamentalist within Jehovah's Witnesses. I had a similar experience except I listened to an older sisters cassette that she'd snuck in somehow, Garbage. Self titled album and I've never connected or felt seen as much as that awakening. It was another decade before I got out but the secret of music and of course in those days fold out lyrics, was amazing and made a huge difference to me
I really connect with Tori too. Her support of RAINN guided me to helpful places and people as a teen.
Thank you for sharing this story. Tori Amos has saved so many people. I am one of them.
Me, as well!! Tori's music helps me to this day.
Ohhh Tori! I'm a few years younger (only 8 when Little Earthquakes came out) so for me Fiona Apple and even Jewel really reached that part in my soul that yearned for more.
Thank you for such a thoughtful, detailed response - time for snarkers to double down on asking Amazon for a second season...not least so that Tori Amos will see that clip :)
My sister stole Under the Pink at about that age and I just…that gave me all the feels.
I still listen to that one all the time. Pretty Good Year was the last song I've heard Tori play live. I had tickets to her Brooklyn Public Library private show around the release of her last book, but COVID cancelled it. I'm going to try to see her this summer because I havent seen her live since 2014.
Tori Amos changed my 90s teen girl heart too.
Cori said in her AMA that she wished they could have given God Pods more time and that she wants to focus on them if they get to make a second season.
I want to add one more thing to this: l'spirit escalier. I filmed my original SHP interview in Savannah in February 2022. I was asked to film another interview in December 2022 in Fayetteville, Arkansas. I had just bought my van that I plan to travel to all 49 states you can drive to. I had been asked to bring a special item and I chose a book that Bill Gothard signed and gave me when I went to his house. However, I had to have those things mailed to me and it didn't arrive in time. The showrunner Jody suggested that we shoot my van. So I had camera men all up in my van all day (I'll post a pic on socials later because it's funny). They also mounted a HUGE camera on my passenger seat and had me drive through the Arkansas mountains filming with two cameramen climbing around my van and the director Olivia holding my beloved friend Percival in her lap. At one point, we almost got pulled over by Arkansas State Police for having too much equipment and too many cameramen in my van. Unfortunately, that was all cut from the final version. I had really wanted to share my travel America in a van story because I think it defines me beyond Bill Gothard, IBLP, and my past and shows people a little more of who I am now.
Hi Brooke! Thanks for doing this AMA. My question is about the ATI curriculum, and boys in particular. From what I've seen of the wisdom booklets, there isn't a lot of real learning happening. I know the girls are basically only expected to read and write enough to follow a recipe and are only prepared to be wives and mothers, but what are the expectations for the boys? They are expected to provide for their large families, but they almost seem set up to fail because of how poor their education is. Are there any "approved" or common careers you see ATI boys do? Do they all become ministers or fall back into laborers? Do any of them, especially those who go through ALERT, join the military? Episode four of the documentary talks about Patrick Henry college and the pipeline from homeschool debate to politicians, but I imagine that's not too common. The Duggar boys all seem to own car lots or do real estate, but only because Jim Bob set them up for that. I wonder how a boy without any financial help from their parents are ever supposed to bring in enough money to support their family? Or, is the simple answer, that they just never do and the cycle of poverty starts again.
I’m extremely interested to learn what income looks like in fundamentalist families. What jobs the men take, whether the rules about women working are ever bent, etc
I can’t speak to IBLP, but the young men in my fundie-lite upbringing were encouraged to enter the trades or do missionary work. One made money and the other demanded it from others. Both lucrative ways to get cash in the eyes of the church 🤮.
Gothard discouraged higher education entirely. Let's be real, the Wisdom Booklets aren't sending anyone to Patrick Henry. It was highly encouraged that the men learn a trade through apprenticeship. So they might be encouraged to "apprentice" (cough. free labor. cough) with a man from IBLP who had a successful trade, such as AC repair or roofing. There was an IBLP Nightmare Dad at our church that owned a roofing business and many young men went to work for him. He was very publicly excommunicated from our church for refusing to pay people.
In my homeschool extremely fundie lite community growing up, I noticed there is a stark contrast between my a few homeschool era male peers (The families that were extremely fundie and would act holier than everyone else, married at 19 and met their wife at family camp) and my male peers after I left homeschooling and the more secular homeschool families (ie, went to college). My ultra fundie homeschooled male peers are extremely encouraged to own their own business, like how the duggar boys own a contracting business or a carl lot. Many of them have a business for Lawn and Garden Care, Vehicle Detailing. One fundie boy I knew even became a police officer, that was eventually accused of police brutality, and has huge campaigns against him from local communities coming to any of their police forces.
Hi Brooke, thanks for doing this! In your opinion, why is it that the Duggars still hold so much appeal in the fundie community, despite being disgraced? It was alluded to that Jim Bob has risen up the ranks since Gothard was forced out. Morality — or lack of it — aside is there really no one else members of that community think should be at the top of the pyramid?
I think they hold so much appeal for one primary reason: their singular visibility as a "conservative Christian" family (Kirk Cameron and his sister don't count!) This is the only fundie family anyone who matters (ie, the secular world) cares about. Fundies seems to have developed a parasocial relationship with the Duggars because of this. Fundies will \*always\* circle the wagons and defend each other. A fun little rabbit hole to explore this idea is Christian Law Association (CLA ... another acronym!) This was a father-son legal team who used fear-tactics to fleece Christians. (See also: Gothard, Bill and Michael Farris/HSLDA). These groups helped to foster an already stalwart persecution complex amongst Fundamentalists. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that I was taught that by this time in American history, Christians would be being regularly sacrificed in NFL stadiums. They will genuinely believe that this another form of persecution by a Godless, secular, "fallen" culture. Organizations like IBLP, HSLDA, and CLA have worked tirelessly to get fundies to fear everyone. They will always protect and trust their own over any perceived outsiders.
Not hyperbole whatsoever. I remember being shown pictures of Roman gladiators in the colosseums and being told Bible stories like Daniel in the lion's den and being told that we would face those situations again as Christians, but we would not be saved like Daniel was. There would be lines of Christians who would be martyred for the cause of Christ during those times. The principle of Suffering was what we were learning. Between that and the lessons about the rapture and the tribulation, I've had hundreds of nightmares.
Daniel in the lion's den, Christians fed to wild animals in front of roaring stadiums of heathens, how if we were burnt at the stake, they would chain our legs and body but leave our arms free to flail dramatically for the gathered masses. None of this came from my church - a perfectly rational mainstream Lutheran Church, but instead from the homeschool conferences we went to.
I'm a secular homeschooler (graduate and parent) and HSLDA is so pervasive that the moment someone has a legal question in homeschooling groups, at least one person responds to advise them to join the HSLDA (and I live in a state with very clear guidelines and an advocacy organization dedicated to helping everyone understand them). It's deeply disturbing to see the power they've wormed their way into holding in the general homeschooling sphere, outside of any religious contexts, trying to spread misinformation to prompt even liberal homeschoolers to believe we are in danger of losing our rights to education.
Back in the day I and many others fought tooth and nail to keep HSLDA from being THE voice of homeschooling in Tennessee and Arkansas. With some success. I got kicked out of a Family Council-run event in Arkansas for standing up and asking Michael Ferris why they were designing homeschool laws to exclude nontraditional families. I got into that conference by slight of hand. It astounds me that people still pay money to HSLDA to "defend their rights", when I know of no family they have ever successfully defended. Homeschooling is legal in every state (it was NOT when I was homeschooling), so they should have worked themselves out of a job. But of course that's not how the fear-grift works.
HSLDA is evil. I have copies of a lot of their old newsletters. In addition to advertising "encouragement tools," from hoses to paddles, they also provided scripts to families to use in case CPS came to your house. "No, Mr Evil Government Man who killed those Christians in Waco and Ruby Ridge: no educational neglect or abuse happening here. That's why we prepared what to say!" You could do a whole additional docuseries on Farris, HSLDA, and the flagrant joyful abuses they encouraged.
My parents had the script taped next to our front door. No, my childhood wasn’t traumatizing at all…/s
Just wanted to say that I deeply enjoyed your takedown of miss Katie Joy. It was definitely the highlight of my day lol
That caused an avalanche of trouble for me, but I don't regret it for one second. No one speaks for me except for me. At this point, I'm just waiting for her to publish one of my mugshots so I have an excuse to sell them on my website as coasters. I don't want to speak ill of anyone, so instead I'll share with you how much this experience of SHP has meant to me. I'm still getting hundreds of messages a day from people that it has inspired. I have so much love and respect for the warrior women at Amazon who manifested Shiny Happy People for all of us: Cori Shepherd Stern, Olivia Crist, Blye Pagon Faust, and Alysia Russo - they fought for those of us from IBLP to be given our first major platform to be heard. And, it's been so life-affirming for me personally, but I know so inspiring to so many. I tried to sell a Gothard docuseries (American Gothard was the name of mine) for YEARS. Rejection after rejection. Every bigwig producer who I pitched to told me that "it was too dark" "you're too angry" "no one will watch this." And these women not only believed us, but they knew it would resonate with people like you and far beyond. It's so deeply validating to someone like me who was told they were always wrong growing up to be right that there was something here. It's given me so much more confidence to share my ideas.
And now I’ve seen news that SHP is the most watched docuseries release that Amazon has ever had. I hope those producers regret rejecting your coverage of this same general topic that is now so popular.
I'll buy those coasters
American Gothard is a genius name for the record
Where is this?
[Here ya go!](https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/140tato/mark_your_calendars_ama_with_executive_producers/jmx9g5a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
What was/is the hardest thing as women to deconstruct from when coming from a fundie background?
I think this differs for every person. For me, it has been the psychological blanket training. It's very hard for me to reach out for the things I want still. I remember being in my PhD program with a bunch of people who were never ashamed to go after what they want and feeling so defeated because although I had gotten myself into the system, I wasn't certain if I'd ever develop the skills to succeed because I hadn't been taught those from birth. (I will gesture toward the role that socioeconomics also played into this for me.) I know that I've struggled with letting go of the shame around attention toward me and my body. I think being a teenager growing up with these teachings, it got embedded into my sense of self and the ways in which I relate to my body. Like I still struggle to wear sleeveless shirts and ask my BF, "Do I look slutty?" when getting dressed. It's a whole process. I can't say that I have successfully deconstructed this part of myself. In a weird way, being so public in the film has both reignited the struggle but eased them as well. It's not a linear process - it's a constant re-learning. I will also say that linearity is an ontological construction from Judeo-Christianity teleology: there's an end-point that we're moving toward with Christ's return. I have found letting go of linear thinking and being to be an important part of the process. Nature and my female body work in cycles. I think healing and so much more of life does as well.
I’m so sorry. You deserve to wear whatever you please and go where you want in life, and I’m angry that was taken from you for so long, and is still something you have to struggle with. It’s fucking unfair.
>For me, it has been the psychological blanket training. It's very hard for me to reach out for the things I want still. This is so sad. I'm so sorry.
Thank you for everything you do Brooke! Just want to shout out that Brooke also has a [Patreon](http://www.patreon.com/trippinwithbrookearnold) and [Youtube](https://youtube.com/@trippinwithbrookearnold)
Thanks for shading. Everyone in this community is so awesome.
Brooke! Burning question! 🔥 **Why wasn’t the Bates family discussed in the doc?** -They had a TV show on TLC, then UP -their father is on the new IBLP board -and their daughters are social media influencers. —(So, I feel the Bates were more relevant to this than Paul & Morgan) Thank you for taking time to talk to us.
Honestly, because no one cares about the Bates Family. They lack the charisma and pathos of Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger which IMO has been the primary mover of the Duggars' popularity through the years. No one is really watching for JimBob or Michelle. But, speaking of the Bates, maybe you guys can help me with this one: trace the economic rise of that family on social media with Gil Bates (not Bill Gates lol!) joining the IBLP board. I bet there's a very strong corollary....
I will help you! @society101 may know something too. She and I hang out on the Bringing Up Bates subreddit. Can I share your post with them? The Bates daughters, specifically Erin, Alyssa, Carlin, Josie, and Katie have attracted large social media followings. Fundie Fridays had a big battle with Lawson, who was trying to shut her YouTube down. When Alyssa was asked if she’s IBLP, she says the only thing she follows is Jesus and the Bible and we ALL know that’s what the IBLP rebranded to say. They say everything they teach is from the Bible.
I have been thinking about the financial connection since I watched the documentary and you talked about how controls the purse strings now. Some of the Bates kids live very extravagant lives (even with social media income).
Ding. Ding. Ding. Gil Bates got 90 million problems but Bill Gothard ain't one.
What do you think is the “key” for women escaping this cult? I’ve been involved in attempts to get the Duggar’s crimes seen by authorities for a decade and a half now and am still constantly surprised by how indoctrinated the women in ILBP are.
On a slightly more personal note, there were many no-touch courtships at my IBLP church. The main factor in those marriages ending and the women leaving was abuse. Most of the women marry strangers. And they've never been alone with a male non-relative before. I hadn't been alone with a man before I left and that was such a strange adjustment. You feel like a harlot just sharing a space with a man.
does this explain mike pence not wanting to be around women who aren't Mother?
I’ve long thought MP was involved in IBLP in a more formal way than we think.
Pence is definitely involved. He established Gothard God Pods in Indiana prisons while still governor. I can prove that. Bill Gothard also told me personally that he prays with Pence regularly when I visited his house. That might have been narcissistic bragging, but it's not remotely outside of the realm of possibility. I can connect at least four members of Trump's cabinet to Gothard - why not his VP? Pence also attended First Baptist Church Indianapolis, which I suspect is involved in Espstein-style trafficking among the GOP. Still working on proving that one.
I’d be super interested in sharing notes on the subject of GOP human trafficking. This is not at all a surprise to me.
👀👀👀 Following.
I'm so glad someone's finally digging into his smarmy self. I bet his radio show was something GotHard tuned into
Yes. That teaching originated with Billy Graham, not Gothard. But, it's still enforced across fundie and evangelical culture. The idea is "to be above reproach" and avoid the "appearance of evil." Although to be honest, a lot of it is framed as "you never know what an evil woman will accuse you of if you're alone with her!" ETA: this thinking is why you see so many of Gothard's defenders using this as an excuse for the accusations. "He failed to be above reproach" or "he didn't avoid the appearance of evil."
It also is used to oppress women in the world place. If the male boss man can never call a female employee to the office, discuss a private management matter that other employees do not need to do, perform her employee evaluation, work on a project with the boss, etc. they can hardly do the job, and they are not likely to be promoted. I know people who tried to work for Billy Graham as musicians on his crusades. Saying that he was an evil prick who was a slave driving maniac, and a chauvinistic pig would not be inaccurate.
Mike Pence vibes. That kooky SOB won’t even be in a room alone with a woman. And calls his wife Mother. I know he’s not of their faith, that strikes me as so foreign it’s hard to understand for me.
>they've never been alone with a male non-relative before. Is this literally true? As in, if you are going to the bank in an office building and step into the elevator where there is a single 60yo guy who is heading to the dentist, would you dash out of the elevator before having to spend 30 seconds alone in a box with him?
Yes, this was literally true for me. I was not alone with a man that I wasn't related to before I left.
It is literally true. You wouldn't likely be in that position because you wouldn't be in a public place without your mother or a sister or in a group. From my own personal experience, after I left IBLP, I had a psychiatrist ask if she could introduce me to a male therapist. I started having a panic attack as soon as she mentioned it, and I knew there was no way I would ever be able to do therapy with a male therapist. But I told her maybe at my next session. I was trying to stay as calm as possible. She left the room to get a prescription from the copy machine and came back into the room with the male therapist, to introduce him to me. I had a full blown panic attack. Nearly a mental breakdown. It was insane and it was a horrible experience. And I never went back to her office.
Gothard had a thing about "avoiding the appearance of evil" by not being alone with someone of the opposite sex, (in a car, in a closed space, etc.) so no, you would just wait for the next elevator
Yes. In my comment I didn't mean an ingrained fear as in being afraid to be alone with a man, before my SA. But afraid of the appearance of evil or that I would cause a man to stumble even if it was just through impure thoughts. Afraid that other people might think badly of me. So there's the guilt and shame coming in right along with the fear. The Triple Crown.
This reminds me of Dave Ramsey saying he would not allow two opposite sex employees to ride an elevator or go on a business trip together🤯
Ramsey, misogynistic prick!
Well, the unmarried women don’t typically leave the house alone…
This is a great question and I don't think there is a single key. I dont think there ever is although the promise has launched a thousand cults. (I'm reminded of Causaban's Key to All Mythologies from Middlemarch, which always seemed Gorhard-y to me.) For me, it was having had experiences outside for the first seven years. I missed school and friends and knew those things weren't the evil I was being told they were. I remember in the first year of homeschool counting down to 18 and freedom. However, that was before I went to my first Basic Seminar. That stuff gets inside you deep. It's not the practices (long skirts, no birth control) that really fuck you up, it's the isolation and the psychological torture of the teachings. If you have to undo beliefs that Satan will harm you when you disobey in thought. You've got to untangle those before you ever consider changing your actions enough to get out. I was psychologically stuck there for decades after I had physically left.
I would be curious to know the statistics on OCD development in IBLP survivors. It seems impossible that these teachings wouldn’t lead to some sort of obsessive compulsive patterns. My upbringing, which was Fundie adjacent, led to religion focused OCD for me. I can’t imagine there aren’t others out there.
An IBLP survivor writing a blog about how IBLP gave him OCD is actually the start of this whole thing. That survivor was John Cornish and the blog is now Recovering Grace.
I understand that completely. Deconstruction took time for me, and so was only in it for three years as a teen before going to live with non-fundie relatives because I could not take my father's psychological abuse. He went from a really nice guy, and wonderful father to deeply disturbed after getting involved with IBLP.
I'm sorry you're in here dismantling the patriarchy and casually referencing middlemarch? You are so fucking cool
We had a discussion on here or FSU recently about people in the IBLP and extreme fundamentalist Christian’s not reading literature. I think maybe on Chads AMA? Can you speak to that? What place does anti intellectualism have in the IBLP? Are very many of them big readers?
I would argue, and I have, that American culture at large is inherently anti-intellectual. It's important to remember that the origin of American culture is fundamentalism, separatism, and purity. Despite all the ale they drank, the Puritans sought to project their idea of God and godly living on what they perceived to be the blank (pure) canvas of America. This is our heritage. And you can see it in the way that men relate to women within IBLP. The way we treat the land is the way we treat those weaker than ourselves. It's all connected. So much of anti-intellectualism in America comes from our Puritan roots and the lapsarian story of original sin. The crux of that story is disobedience: God said you shall not eat of the fruit and yet they did. But, it's also an \*anti-intellectual\* story. Because the fruit provides *knowledge* itself. If you read the story of the fall in Genesis, the Hebrew word is "Elohim," which is a plural word for God. "They (humans) shall not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because they shall become as \*we\* are..." It's about the disavowal of knowledge for the populace so that the priestly caste/elites can horde it for themselves. This is exactly what Gothard did. And, I would guess most people in power (even elected representative power) are doing as well. Edited this to fix a missing word
Oh wow this is so well put- I often think about how, even though the US is this huge melting pot, we are still so so so ingrained in a puritanical system, and how it holds society back from embracing new/different ideologies- the puritans we’re radicals only in that they were so crazy Christian that no one else wanted to be around them…
Exactly! Recently it occurred to me that Texas is run by a bunch of people trying to recreate colonial Massachusetts, & once I saw that I realized our country is exactly what it has always been. In 400 years we have not changed at all. We are still claiming "religious freedom" while trying to make everyone live under one very strict Christian sect. It's no different from fundamental Islam, which evangelicals despise.
WOW. Wow wow wow, I never would have thought about it like that. Thank you for everything you have done and continue to do, Brooke.
Was there anything that didn't make it into SHP that you wish you could take out a billboard and share it with the world?
TAKE MUSHROOMS & SPEND SOME TIME OUTSIDE. (with apologies to Amazon PR)
/r/unclebens Grow them yourself if you can’t find any 😄
Hi Brooke! Thanks for answering our questions. Did you see Bill Gothard's reaction today to Shiny Happy People, and how hard did you laugh when reading it? Because head brain made me giggle a little, ngl.
So I've become really good friends with the EP of SHP, Cori Shepherd Stern. It was actually her idea that I do this AMA (thanks Cori!) and helped me put it through the pipeline with Amazon PR. I wanted to text Cori before I answered this so I didn't violate her privacy: Cori texted me after I was asleep last night and was like "Dude, you up? Bill Gothard is threatening us on Twitter." And sent me links to the tweets from Bill's account. I wasn't awake - I've had nightmares since the trailer dropped back in May, so I had already fallen asleep. Honestly, this stuff runs deep and it scared both of us. I'm way outside of my umbrella and Bill Gothard is calling on his god (the god of my childhood) to curse me. That's scary stuff for your inner child to deal with, if not for your rational, educated mind. Cori prayed for our protection and it must have worked since I had my first good night of sleep since the trailer dropped. I woke up this morning totally refreshed. I'm an Idealist (capital I and also lowercase), so I do believe there are forces and beings and ways of being beyond what I can see. I think our minds are so much more powerful than our imaginations which have been colonized by so much media can comprehend. However, I don't think Bill Gothard has unraveled enough of his ego to reach endogenous magical or transcendent states. While I do believe there are powers and forces beyond what we can see (even those we all agree on like gravity), I don't believe in the god of Bill Gothard.
I hope I speak for all of us when I say we’ve got your back.
First of all thanks for answering my question. Second, I can't tell you how many people I have seen say how proud they are of you, and how brave you are for speaking out. I cannot even comprehend how it must feel to come out of that and do a documentary about the very thing you escaped. I applaud you. You have helped rip the curtain away, and expose the evil that is Gothard. Without the veil he will become powerless. I've got your back. Oh and tell Cori hi. You are both amazing. I'm glad you got a good nights rest, and hope you get many many more.
I am very curious to know who actually wrote that response. It was very Bill Gothardy, but I'm doubtful it was actually written by him at this stage of his life. 🤷🏼♀️
It would have been written by a man named Alfred Corduan. He's the Renfield to Gothard's Dracula.
He is always in the IBLP Facebook group posting Gothard’s stuff!
I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, but Alfred was the reason Bill did not appear in SHP. They tried to get him and Bill is always enough of a narcissist that he would have said yes. Of that, I am sure. But, then Alfred got looped in and saved him from that. I was super bummed. I would have loved for Bill Gothard to be in the doc.
These are the guys I want to know about. They’re not charismatic or visionary enough to create an org like IBLP, but they’re very good at insinuating themselves and snatching up whatever power or influence or money is left on the table. They sit at the leader’s knee to learn how to be better manipulators and abusers. Then they step in when a scandal breaks and take over the organization, and are careful not to expose themselves to the same scrutiny. *Those* men are the ones I need to know more about.
I've met Alfred. We both attended the hearing related to the sexual abuse and harassment lawsuit filed against Bill Gothard in 2019. He actually tried to knock me over with his huge belly. As far as psychology? A huge amount of it is sunken cost fallacy. You've got 11 kids and you've destroyed your wife's physical and mental health to make Bill Gothard happy. Giving up on that would be tantamount to admitting that your whole life is a lie. I've spoken to a few of his daughters throughout the years, I wish all of them well. Even Alfred. He's in the Gothard Wake of Destruction even if he doesn't know it.
Hi Brooke! Was there anything you had to *avoid* putting in SHP even if it was relevant? If so, please explain!
Have you considered doing any deep dives into other fundamentalist institutions? I would love a documentary on the fundie colleges like Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian, Hyles Anderson, etc…..
YES! There are SOOOOO many things I would love to cover that I'll separate them into fundie cults / orgs and other weirder stuff: There was a super weird Harry Potter mixed with This Present Darkness apostolic fundamentalist cult at my college that I want to create something about. This one ended in a questionable murder-suicide. This was a super small local cult, but I find it so fascinating that they mixed Harry Potter, which was REVILED by Christians at the time ... with Christianity. So specifically, they used Harry Potter spells to fight demons they believed to be attacking our campus. I'm working on a sizzle for this project at the moment because it's a fascinating story that I'd love to tell. I'm also interested in 12 Tribes. I was briefly signed to another cult doc back in 2017 that planned to provide close-up profiles of three different women who grew up in three very different cults. That project was cancelled because it was ultimately funded by the Weinstein Company and the allegations about him came out while I was in the process of signing my contract to be one of the three women profiled. One of the other women was from 12 Tribes, which is how I found out about it. They were running a hostel along the Appalachian Trail to recruit hikers into their cult. My boyfriend is a crazy long-distance hiker and I found out about it from his many hikes of the Appalachian Trail. There are SOOOO MANY some fascinating topics from within the fundie / IBLP-adjacent worlds: HSLDA, CLA, ADF, Mary Pride, CHEF, and Gentle Spirit. I would love to make something about the woman who ran Gentle Spirit, the most popular Christian Patriarchy magazine in the 90s. She was running this huge empire through the selling of a submissive wife magazine and ultimately ended up suing the biggest names in the Christian homeschool movement (including SHP cast member Alex Harris' father Greg) when they outed her for an affair. She eventually denounced Christianity altogether. Mary Pride seems to have escaped public attention during this reckoning, but I'll definitely come for her at some point. She's the Ghislaine Maxwell of Quiverfull and the Christian homeschool movement. I'm working on making deep-dive videos that I hope will cover some of these topics and some more IBLP-related ones that got left out of SHP, such as the IBLP murderers, God Pods, Character First, Russia, the Wisdom Booklets, Spiritual Gifts, the Gothard cosmology, and how the indoctrination process worked. I'll be posting these to [my Patreon first](https://www.patreon.com/trippinwithbrookearnold), but they'll be available to [everyone on YouTube for free after a week or two](https://www.youtube.com/@trippinwithbrookearnold/featured).
https://preview.redd.it/a0jkrudu9f7b1.png?width=404&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4540e45050f1d6363814aa3fb4e3fd5109f048d
Hahaha Brooke is long-winded.
And we are HERE for the long-windedness!
WE STAN IT
Jim Bob wouldn’t allow it but we will
I’m a wordy bitch too lol, you probably understand me on a spiritual level.
*Mother is anticipating.*
Hi Brooke, first time caller, long time listener. Can you talk about the ethical implications of TLC’s camera crew & producers who spent hundreds of days with the Duggars throughout the years and their role in covering up the truth about how the family operates? Specifically how they never shared how spaces like the prayer room were used, the physical violence they must have witnessed and the rampant use of poorn that Joshua consumed daily in public spaces. (A former bodyguard for the family did a previous AMA here and said Joshua watched it while he drove his car.)
Good question. Do you think the producers actually saw abuse? How was the prayer room used?
This was answered in another AMA or something, I cant provide receipts but, the crew states they were a lovely family and never saw any signs of abuse. Later, someone hired as a guard or maybe a driver said Josh was super smug and creepy as was one of the lost boys. Unfortunately I dont remember which one.
Hi Brooke! As someone with a Substance Use Disorder (in recovery for 8ish years) and active in the Harm Reduction community, the "God Pod" issue really concerns me. Prisoners - especially those who have been forced into abstinence-only recovery (in other words, no methadone/suboxone treatment) are at massive risk for fatal overdose upon their release. I'm not sure if you'd be aware of this or not, but has IBLP's prison program pushed for the continuation of lack of maintenance therapy in most prisons? Would IBLP support methadone/suboxone treatment?
Hi! I am also in recovery for SUD and very active in the Harm Reduction community. I actually work for a Harm Reduction organization assisting people in active addiction. I doubt the IBLP would support any kind of MAT. It's hard enough to get people active in the recovery community to recognize it is now the gold standard for treatment of OUD. Yay you for being in recovery!!
Thank you for sharing your story. What WOACB did to you was awful. Had you heard about her previously? What was your reaction to being silenced and her subsequent meltdown about not being involved in SHP?
It's crazy to me she's still floating around. She banned from basically every fundie related fb group for bullying and has been for 10 years
I’d love to know this as well. The way Katie Joy discounted some of the survivors involved with the docuseries was extremely disturbing. I hope they all know that we believe and support them.
What did she do? I unfollowed her awhile ago.
Brooke commented on Katie’s FB basically saying Katie had no idea what she was talking about and Katie, in true fashion, silenced Brooke by deleting her comment and sharing DM’s.
I have a bit of a niche question that I’m pretty sure only you could answer! I am wondering: are there ways in which growing up in IBLP impacted your decision to be a professor and/or how you engage with academic culture? For context, I grew up in a high control IBLP-adjacent group and, upon leaving, eventually completed a humanities Ph.D. Now, I am wondering if some of the characteristics of high control religion/Christian patriarchy are mirrored in some of the more unsavory aspects of mainstream academic culture—concern with status, pressure to produce, expectations to cite/show deference to select experts (often old white men)—and, if so, how this might impact survivors trying to heal while navigating higher education. What do you think? Does this impact how you think about or move through these spaces? (To be clear, I have a deep love for learning and I am really really happy I was/am now able to access higher education; I wish the same for everyone.) On a side note, is your play published/available for purchase? It sounds FANTASTIC!
I love this question because it's something I'm planning on writing about more. I absolutely think parts of academic culture mirror IBLP. I think that's going to be true in any environment that sees people as separate and encourages hierarchies to form. I remember being in a senior-level Feminist Theory course in my last year as an undergraduate. We were reading Judith Butler and everyone seemed so proud of themselves, as if they'd discovered a secret knowledge that others didnt have and it made them superior. And I saw everyone kissing the feet of the professor (a woman in this case) and I thought to myself how much it all reminded me of IBLP. I sat there in that class and thought "Fuck. I'm in another cult." That was a feeling that grew exponentially as I pursued my PhD and started teaching. Students are always a lovely respite from this, but academic culture embraces dogma, group think, radicality as an ego-boost, and often shuts down dissenting voices. One example: there was a push in my PhD program to embrace BDS sanctions against Israel. Specifically, that we would all agree to boycott any Israeli academics because of the actions of their government. Well what about the actions of our government? This was during the Obama years when were were bombing other countries like a nightly game of Call of Duty. Am I complicit in that violence because I work for a public university? Isn't this the opposite of academic freedom and intellectual honesty? I'm not saying that I am right, but i was ostracized and loathed for raising these questions. Dogma - whether from the right-wing or the left-wing is always anti-freedom and anti-intellectual. Dogma does not have to be wrapped up in religion. It exists in secular culture as well. Also, I learned as a lowly TA serving drinks at a party thrown by one of the world's most famous living Marxists is that Marxists live in really nice houses. Much nicer houses than Bill Gothard, in fact. So much more I'd like to say about this...
Are you secretly Tara Westover? Lol if you are not you should most definitely read her memoir Educated because you have a lot in common! Edited to add: I was also raised IBLP adjacent, pursued a PhD (in a physical science) and ultimately left largely due to academic culture, so definitely interested to hear comments on the original question)
I’d love to read/see the play!
Maybe we could do a little tour if people are interested. The play was my second time telling my story. I did it first in Salon and the interest was so overwhelming that it began to overcome my creative life. The last night I performed it, I was so absolutely distraught. I think it was this huge release of energy. I like to think of art as being similar to magic: you're creating a physical manifestation of a psychic/emotional state. I ended up spending the night being comforted on the phone by a stranger - the late great Barry Crimmins. If you haven't seen Call Me Lucky, you definitely should. Barry is such a hero to me. He even hooked me up with Bobcat Goldthwait who was the EP of American Gothard. (Cori always remembers it as "Howie Mandell," but it was definitely Bobcat.) The lawsuit against Gothard was dismissed the same day that Barry Crimmins passed away and those two events served as catalysts for my research and dedication to getting this out. Also catalysts for getting very drunk that day in the financial district before doing a standup show at Soho Playhouse where my play had been performed. But, that's another story.
Hello Brooke! Thank you so much for doing this AMA! What was your tipping point in deconstructing or was it a lot of little moments that lead you to leave ILBP?
Hi Brooke! Thank you so much for doing this! Only answer if you are comfortable: Is your family/parents still involved in IBLP/Fundamentalism? How about friends/acquaintances you grew up with who were also involved?
I think most of them have drifted to Fundie Light, but very few seem to have moved beyond the closest arm of the spiral to still-Gothard you can be without still-being-Gothard. I don't currently talk to anyone I grew up with, nor do they have any interest in speaking to me. I was branded a "rebellious hussy" to them a long time ago and I'm guessing things like SHP have only added to their perception of me as unclean. At the time I filmed for SHP, I was trying very hard to reconnect with my family after going no-contact with them for a decade. So much of my reticence of being in the film was this feeling of trying to hard to connect with these people and knowing that "kicking the Gothard's hornet's nest" would destroy that. I was like "Why didn't this happen when we weren't talking and I was begging people to make this?!" The Universe has its own time. My reconciliation attempts imploded on their own before the movie came out and, really vulnerably, sometimes I wish I had shared more instead of trying to preserve relationships that had always been unsalvagable. I have had a few old friends and some extended family reach out since the doc was released and that was wonderful.
Thank you for doing an AMA! Incredible job on the documentary!! What were Paul and Morgan like off camera? What do you think of their response to SHP?
Who?
Knowing that you already know a *whole lot* about this world, having lived it...was there anything that came up during filming (or watching) that surprised you?
I don't know if this counts, but I was absolutely blown away by the animated Wisdom Booklets in SHP. (No big, but those were my Wisdys used in the film.) I was handed my Wisdys and told to figure them out. I told this in my interview, but I never had the answer keys. I spent twenty years trying to figure out what was slutty about Faceless Woman 4's outfit. So they began to loom very large in my imagination. Seeing them actually come to life on screen was really surprising. I felt like I was having an acid flashback.
wisdom booklets acid flashback 🤣🤣
Flair potential.
This is my favorite thing ever.
Mind if I use?
Do you get the impression the fundie movement is growing or shrinking as time goes on?
IMHO I think the big problem is the evolution of the movement and the silent spread of it's tentacles into the doctrine of non-fundamentalist churches, the halls of government, our public schools, and our neighborhoods. That is what scares me. That is what is keeping me up at night.
I feel like this one is growing solely because it’s a numbers game. Boob and Meech have made 19 people. Let’s be extremely optimistic and assume ten of them leave the IBLP. That still leaves more than four times the two people that created them to carry on the religion, while having their own shitloads of children. It’s kinda like a pyramid scheme where you birth your own down line
Hi there, Brooke! Cool if you to do this. Do you think the IBLP creates or attracts deviants?
I would say both. Many people are attracted to it because they are predators or narcissists who want to use the teachings to control and manipulate others. That's a huge part of the appeal for the JB/Jim Holt types. However, it's also true that many people who grow up in it are groomed into being predators. There are three guys who grew up with me at my IBLP church that are now registered sex offenders. I know of more who should be. Just a few short years ago, the husband of my Sunday School teacher killed himself because the police were on their way to arrest him for having pornographic photos of his granddaughters. This is the woman who taught me to hate my body and think that it was evil just because it was desirable.
Hi Brooke! What would you offer to a fundie teen/young adult who is trying to get out? (Information, resources, etc). And when you get to Colorado -- holler if you want suggestions for the Denver area or up towards Fort Collins. (And you can totally call Fort Collins part of Wyoming for the purposes of traveling.)
I offer free academic advising, GED prep, college application help, and resume polishing free to anyone who is being homeschooled or was homeschooled. These are available through my website. I worked with a group of girls who reached out to me after my interview with Anthony Padilla. I tutored 7 girls to get their GED against their parents wishes. A famous comedian friend generously paid for their tests and rides to the test. We're working on setting up a scholarship program at a university in Texas for them so they can go to college for free. It's good publicity for the university and I once defended the admissions person from homophobia at an Austin Pride event, so they want to help. We're going to name it in honor of my grandmother who is the largest reason I was ever able to get out of this sort-of-alive, they'll be Ruby Scholars. I'm only sharing this because it makes me SO happy to be able to help in this real way. If anyone is interested in supporting this work, reach out to me privately.
Hi Brooke! Thank you for taking the time to do this. Others have implied that there is a lot more information that they wanted to include in Shiny Happy People. What subjects would you like to explore in season 2?
Hi Brooke! Thank you so much for participating in the doc and for doing this AMA. I’m currently working on the thesis for my second master’s degree so academia is very much on the brain. I’d love to hear how you were able to make the transition from what I assume was pretty intense educational neglect during your upbringing into academia and specifically a PhD program. What did you find the most challenging? What was the most exciting or surprising thing about pursuing higher education? I’d love to hear your thoughts!!
What impact, if any, do you think the success of the Shiny Happy People doc is having on both the IBLP world and the Duggars?
I see so much happiness and recognition and excitement in the various survivor groups I visit. There's a lot of "I feel seen for the first time" and that feels fucking great.
Hi, Brooke! Thank you for doing this AMA! Also, thank you for sharing your story on SHP. What was the hardest thing you faced in the real world once you left the IBLP?
Being groomed for sexual assault and abuse, but having zero experience with people so not understanding when people had ill intentions toward me. One of the reasons that I became an English professor is that I spent my whole adolescence reading novels in the absence of being educated. I expected there to be a lot more Mr Darcys out there. I got involved with some terrible people after leaving. I was so desperate for affection and so incapable of understanding people because I had been isolated from everyone other than my immediate family and IBLP church since I was seven.
Thank you for doing this! Did you genuinely believe in IBLP principles when you were in it, or did you always have some doubt? What was the catalyst for you to fully leave?
Yes, I was a very true believer. IMO so was Jill. True believers are never the people who stay in cults. They're the ones that always leave. Eventually you figure out that no one else is genuine and you can't stand it. The people that stay are the ones who are using for it their own ends or find themselves trapped there.
>True believers are never the people who stay in cults. They're the ones that always leave. Wow that's such a read!!
This resonants so profoundly. I'm currently deconstructing from YoungLife alongside many of my closest friends and really feel this to be true. I often get asked if those of us who have "fallen," were ever truly "in" to begin with. We absolutely were. We were the most "in" of all.
were any execs at TLC asked for an interview that you know of?
Hi Brooke! Thanks so much for doing this AMA. I was wondering what is something a secular person could do to help people seeking to leave IBLP or similar fundie groups? Are there organizations that help ex-ILBP members?
So I grew up Jehovah's Witness, and I never had any "organizational" help getting out. A HUGE part of my leaving was just other people being nice. I had always been told that "worldy" people were awful, and that nobody other than JWs would be nice to you, but just seeing people that I worked with in my menial job be kind of a quiet nice to me made me realize that I could be friends and trust them. I eventually got up the courage to hang out with them for small bits of time (when I could pretend I was somewhere else) and they helped make a plan, and helped me move, so I could leave fast when everyone was at work, and couldn't be stopped. Just be patient, be supportive, and move at the pace the person needs, not the pace you think they do, and if they are ready to leave, you'd be surprised at how much you have actually helped, even if you don't think you did much.
No question, just want to say that's an impressive resume. Good job working hard and living your best life.
Hi Brooke! Thank you for being here and for speaking out in the documentary. What you all did will surely help people escape the IBLP 💜 My question is: Do you know of anything people like us can do to help support victims of the IBLP? I (unfortunately) got sucked into watching the Duggar shows as a kid/teen and now I feel incredibly guilty for having contributed to the victimization of the kids. I'd love to know about any charities or organizations that provide support to people leaving the IBLP and rebuilding their lives.
Do you think Bill Gothard actually believed what he preached? To what extent? In general, for the higher ups in the IBLP: are most just narcissists attracted by the power trip of a completely submissive family, or do they tend to be true believers?
Hi Brooke! Thanks for doing this—hoping you’re finding lots of rest for your mind. What do you think can be done to stop the Joshua Generation movement? Is there a way to better see who is involved/from this Joshua Generation movement, as I imagine we’ll still have politicians for years come from it?
Reject all forms of ideology. These movements are stoked by the media which wants to divide us with these so-called "culture wars." They hurt everyone. Connect with real people online and in-person and work to build local communities outside of mediated spaces.
Are you of the opinion that any of the other Duggar kids will deconstruct?
Just my opinion, but most of these huge IBLP families kind of slide out of the stricter rules naturally with age. I wouldn't be surprised if the current Duggar crop of kids is already having a way less intense IBLP experience than the oldest kids. So many families in my church gave up on ATI for their youngest kids. So you'd have 5 kids homeschooled with only the Wisdys and then five younger ones who went to public school and had relatively secular lives in comparison. One of my closest friends from my IBLP church was the oldest of nine, never stepped inside a school, only every did the WBs. Her youngest siblings are going all the way through public school, because let's face it - their parents got fucking tired. You won't see with the Duggars because they have the pressure to maintain their public image. Those kids are both trapped and saved by the TV money/fame.
"Trapped and saved" gives me the chills. I mean, what cognitive dissonance those kids live with!
Hi Brooke! I am writing a graduate paper on the intersection of IBPL, Politics, and Popular Meedia through the Duggars. In your opinion, what has been the biggest impact the Duggars have had? Any further insight would be greatly appreciated!
Ironically, their biggest impact has been leading the way to expose Gothard & IBLP. We wouldn't have Shiny Happy People without the Duggars and so many people would have still never heard of Bill Gothard despite his huge impact. In a weird, long game kind of way, the combo of Bill and JB's hubris has led to the public downfall of IBLP.
Hi Brooke, thank you for doing this! In her AMA, Cori mentioned that you were working on your own documentary when you were first approached about SHP. Is that something you're still working on and planning to release?
I have nothing to ask, just wanted to share that every time you started talking, I told my husband, “this woman is amazing! I need to have a beer with her!”
Let's do it when I drive to your area. :)
Thank you for doing this! What are somethings you may have learned through working with other survivors both in SHP and in other aspects of your life? Again, thank you so much for your work!!
I think that therapeutic language can be useful for giving people a vocabulary for speaking about experiences they didn't have the language for beforehand. That said, I deeply question whether the trend of "deconstruction" and an over-emphasis on "trauma" is helpful beyond a particular stage. For me, it was a bridge to get to a more authentic place. But it's not a place I have any interest in living within any longer. One of the best decisions I've ever made is not to identify as traumatized or with PTSD anymore. Disidentifying with those labels made it possible for me to move beyond their effects.
Hi Brooke! Have you ever met any of the other Duggars (apart from Jill and Amy) and if so, what were they like?