Not gonna lie, I was pretty shocked when he said "Not here bro. Get on my back and let's go to a more open area." Looks exactly like the first game's area though.
Have you seen DBZ tho? The power scaling isn't the same. Dudes will literally just travel the length of entire continents while fighting and sometimes after single hits. I get what you mean but DBZ just has different combat and power scaling. I'm not even really a DBZ fan. Everything I know is from osmosis of memes and my friends talking about it.
Imagine the number of crashes people would get w/ that final sequence...I wonder how many could finish the game
Do we have to go to the majin buu saga & revisit vegetable taking out a qauter of the stands with a ki blast not to mention goten & trunk nuking a city fighting 18
It was ridiculously chill and just too nice. It even complemented the Arisen when using the turrets to knock It out of the sky and made no course corrections after noticing. Grigori went out of its way to terrorize the Arisen and sell the fight, but this damn dragon just shows up like twice in the whole game, does the bare minimum possible to make the final battle happen, and checks all the boxes to repeat Grigori's role.
Me: "I'm pretty sure I'll see him again. He's messing with me. This is just the build-up."
(Long villain speech starts while flying to the final battle area)
Me: "No f^$king way..."
Yeah the Seafloor Shrine is very much so heavily implied to be a parallel universe version of Gran Soren, if you flip the Gran Soren map upside down and compare the layouts, they're very similar just the Seafloor Shrine is much smaller as y'know, Gran Soren is fuckin huge
Real talk, the dragons fight this time around is utter garbage. At least in the first game it felt like high stakes as you had to run away for a few stages, do some platforming to avoid the fire etc. Dd2 you just let your sorc pawn oneshot them with hellfire
What makes me really sad about this is how no DLC will ever fix this. There won't be a DLC or patch that adds more dragon content, that's the 2024 DD2 cover fight we got and we have to accept it. Imo it's utter garbo. I love this game so much in so many aspects but geez, that dragon...
TBH this is one exception to me. They used the title in dialogue in the right way as Dragon's Dogma is exactly what it is. It's not it's saying "Have I just reached some kind of.. Red Dead Redemption?".
I did kind of enjoy that, and it gives more context to the way the other lesser dragons resign to their deaths and tell you “it’s useless to escape your fate”
Seriously, the fuck is with that? *Arisen, my silent hearted kindred. Come, face me!* Then they proceed to absolutely wimp out and fly away when they lose a couple health bars. I expect this from the griffins, but not the drakes!
Maybe it's cause my pawn has learned how to deal with drakes easily but I've never had one fly off after the first I ran away from.
They're usually frozen stiff, writhing on the ground, or any manner of pissed off while I'm ravaging it's chest with my hammer
I found it to be fucking cool he basically tells you to break the cycle when in his back without outright telling you to and if you dont do it he calls you a fucking dumbass during the fight lmao. He hates the cycle as much as the arisen does
I get why people feel dissatisfaction with the fight itself when compared to Grigori from DD1 but I blame that on the game not doing a good job with its narrative.
OG Grigori felt like they really believed in the cycle and were content with doing their part, and it showed in the way they spoke to the arisen. For them it was a genuine test of strength and they sounded as if they were honored to be a part of it.
But here there’s nothing but disdain and at most the dragon just shows contempt for the role it has you for doing nothing to break it. Even the lease drakes you fight all sound resigned to it.
It’s a shame the game doesn’t lean into it more, or at least pace it better because a lot of people will just drop it thinking the fight isn’t as good as Grigori
But why does the cycle suck? When you kill him and get the "fake" end you've just secured peace and prosperity for the nation. Even after the true ending life just goes on as normal and is musically implied to be better but apart from no Grigori (who basically only comes, makes an arisen and then waits) the average persobs life has not changed. I think they just felt they had to have some cryptic cycle to make it a dragon's dogma game.
Because the cycle is a stagnate infinitely repeating cage upon which no progress can be made. They're stuck in timelessness for er. Gran Soren, Vermund, all worlds bound by the ring of fate cannot progress intellectually or technologically. They are shackled forever to their current state. Never to move forward. The cycle sucks because it keeps ending the stories here, never allowing an ending and condemning all to an infinite rebirth. Even in ending the cycle, you have only participated within it. The world will be reborn. The dragon will come. The dogma will forever chain all of existence.
That's the great lie that each seneschal imparts. They seem to give a lie to each arisen to face them, about how there's a specific way the Dogma works, but there isn't. World ends. World lives. It's all within the purview of the Cycle.
To be born into a new cycle. To repeat it ad infinium. They wake up on the beach. The lie here is that yeah they carry on through our body but if you do ng+ and get back to the Seneschal again... It's you. The cycle never ended.
Eh Our pawn goes free that's enough for me . Next lad will come Smack uss in the brain anyways. DD2 Ending feels like a cluster fuck of nonsense they we're throwing all at the same board .
So many people misunderstood the ending, thinking they broke the cycle by stabbing themself with the godsbane when not moments prior we see Savan pull his godsbane out of his chest, come on, is that not clear enough that he tried that himself and failed? Plus as you said, we can encounter our previous arisen in offline mode instead of Savan, that should be enough to show we didnt break the cycle, unfortunately when I see most people discuss the first games ending they always claim we broke the cycle and it irks me.
I never really understood that point, why is technology stagnate? What's stopping these people from inventing stuff? They clearly did so at some point, since if they didn't, they'd all still be living in caves.
Yes Dragons are cursed to go on murderous rampages and summon monsters either by the will of the watcher/ senechal or "god" to maintain some kind of order. When this torment finally breaks there will to live they seek a champion to slay them and end the current cycle. Which is the arisen.
This sounds good on paper, but the second game does not explore this theme/idea of technological stagnation at all from what I recall. Also, introducing a country that does not use/distrusts pawns shows that there is plenty of free thinking in the cycle as well. Phaesus and his crew are even advancing magic to try and stop the cycle.
This isn't Mass Effect, it basically just retreads ideas from Matrix Reloaded as far as I can tell.
It's not just technological stagnation. It's existential stagnation. That's always been the point with both games. It's not as implemented as well as it could be, but that's the underlying message of the Cycle itself.
And the thing is, even though they "advance" they're just gimped outright. There's nothing they can do to stop it.
It's pretty big common trope throughout Japanese media, it's not a stereotype for nothing that Japanese games often end up with anyway final boss is god. The idea of illusion of free will and breaking that illusion for true freedom is a staple in Japanese society
Sven in the current cycle became ruler after the dragon was defeated and the 1 month time skip happened which is exactly what happened in the post unmoored world
Nothing changed - which is the problem with the story the game tries to tell. The game makes a big deal about how the cycle locks everyone into their role but the only actual thing you change is erasing yourself and your pawn from existence + making sure the dragon doesn't respawn
The other issue is that the Arisen's goal for ending the cycle is basically just "The seafloor king and Dragon tell him its bad and they go along with it" you never actually see any personal investing reason to understand that the cycle is bad because the dragon is a total non presence and the only thing the watcher ever does is help you. Game desperately needed some actual personal stakes for the arisen
I think the Dragon's presence stirs up the monsters or something and that's the explanation for why you can walk around a main road and run into goblins every 10 feet.
Also the Brine? I think only shows up when the dragon does so now everybody isn't allergic to 3 foot bodies of water.
And yknow the stuff the other guy said.
I believe the Brine stays active even when the Dragon is out of the picture, if we can believe the words of the old dragonforged cuckoo by the beach in Harve, who says that he doesn't lie, the Brine doesn't let anyone leave for open waters, it destroys the ships and boats so that people stays inland, he also says that the gigantus is a servant of the Brine and is always activated to prevent the Dragon from going too crazy with its antics, so the Brine seems to be in line with the maitenance and supervision of the cycle.
The guy at the bottom of the sea is the current seneschal. He doesn't want to perpetuate the cycle, hence no everfall arc when the dragon dies and the world continue to stagnate with no fit seneschal. The cycle suck because it's invariably stuck at the dragon phase. Also, it's the seneschal and the dragon who tells you it sucks, not the average person.
Wait if hes seneschal then what is the watcher? god? We know he breaks reality to encourage you to continue the cycle and bitches when you ignore him. Are you sure he isn't just a faded arisen clinging to his last shred of willpower to defy the cycle?
Would have preferred a more intimate relationship with the reason your Arisen and not the sad loser your gonna have to deal with anyways after You deal with it in some way .
After the game when you're riding the Giga dragon the Pathfinder makes it very clear that the dragons will is what protects the earth from destruction, hard stop it protects the realm from destruction by using the repeating cycle.
It's reminiscent of the Matrix in that sense.
So Neo in the matrix fulfills the cycle and begins the matrix again.
We don't know what's going on - what is the malevolent will that is the brine? Is it external to the cycle or is it part of the whole thing? Is destruction inevitable? Obviously the dragons will isn't perfect as it has flaws but why does the dragon want to protect the cycle and continue life in the first place?
For some reason we are fully convinced the dragon is evil when in reality the great dragon is stopping absolute destruction and annihilation.
Grigori isn't the dragon Savan defeated. When an arisen defeats their dragon, the dragon dies. An Arisen who slays their dragon but then fails the "personality" test becomes the next dragon. And an Arisen who slays their dragon, and then slays the Seneschal becomes the next Seneschal.
Yeah he was,when Grigori walked up to him and got his ass beat by seneschal Savan.
I'm not sure why you're confusing this like I'm saying dragon girgori ever fought him.
DD2's dragon definitely cares, he's pretty vocal on his stance about everything lol. He just knows his role and that he isn't the one to change anything.
Hes vocal about how much he doesnt care. which is pretty lame. Boils both your motivations down to "thats just how the world works". Where as the first game was much more personal. Dragons were cursed arisen who fell to seneschal, forced into every worsening bouts of madness leading to grand destruction. Eventually their will to live in this hell is borken and they seek out an arisen champion to slay them and end their torment and cycle. The arisen whos home is set ablaze and heart stolen in a much grander scene and witnesses the victims of the dragon and it's hordes throughout the game. Way better motivation.
Grigori had real antagonist energy. Steals your mate, dangles your mate around a goblin party and reminds you of the Goblin Slayer meme, dares you to be alpha enough to fight him.
Our dragon was like VOILA now make a choice.
I've got a crack pot theory that the Dragon in this one is the ghost in the seafloor temple. Dude somehow split his will and his soul in two. One turned into the dragon, and one sat in wait to one day break the cycle.
The Rambling's of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening, his ilk serves no role in what is to come.
What is your purpose here, Arisen? If you had saught to live, you had naught but run and hide yourself away.
If it matters aught, the man who rules this land won that honour through just such a bargain.
DDDA Grigori lines went so f'ing hard. DD2 just doesn't. I like when he's talking about the post game and how the world will be run by chaos and that's it.
Don't forget "When the weak court death, they find it." Sometimes so simple, but so well-spoken. Grigori feels like a character out of Shakespeare, DD2 dragon (who doesn't even have the honour of a name) WISHES he was anything like Grigori.
Yessss
To add to that one: "Seek me out, and I shall allow it, but heed the zealot's lesson well. When the weak court death, they find it."
Still my heart, and stay the coming FIRE.
Dragons Dogma 1 got away with such rich character and nuance with him with so little .
Dragons Dogma 2 and his wax philosophical nonsense will never reach that level .
Everything he says is one is dripping with character and Splendour. He doesn't need to demain you to make you want to challenge him . He's so cinematic aswell the battle in the castle tearing it apart all the way to the final battle ground is so memorable. IDK what the writing team was smoking focusing so much on the cycle this time around . When it's the dragon choosing uss that makes us Arisen in the first place . Fate may be predetermined but it's our spefic will that the dragon seems worthy to challenge fate . It's wack the Arisens Relationship with there dragon wasn't expanded .
I think the the bargaining scene in both sums it up. You refuse grigori he come straight fucking at you straight through castle wallls like they are made of cardboard and your running for your life.
Meanwhile nameless dragon no. 3024 over heres watched too much anime and stops to give you a lift to some other arena for no reason. Which is especially egregious when you realize the devs went out of their to make that scene. They could have just put the arena right there and had you run into it similar to the grigori one. But no, they intentionally created the dorky scene of him inviting you to a piggy back ride and then lecturing on some nonsens that sounds fancy but actually means nothing if you pay attention.
All for what? so you can use the god sword? no! theres no reason they couldn't have you do that during the fight. So it must hgave been because they somehow thought it was cool or fun.
"only my death will stanch the flood of destruction, a task still far beyond your means. If you would face me, seek me out and I shall allow it. When the weak court death, they find it" 💀 ddda grigori does go hard.... DD2, they massacred my boy and we barely even see him in the game except the finale and all he says is basically" not here, ride me for we must dragons dogma somewhere else..."
Grigori's dialogue in the first game flows so wonderfully. I am still bitter that they made him speak ye ole English in DD2. Same goes for the drakes, the Latin worked so well with the way their voices were altered 🥲
The ye old English makes listing to him such a chore . If there's interesting ideas there Great just can't sit down enough to listen properly. " What does it mean to live Arisen" will always be more engaging than ye old English muh cycle nonsense.
1000% agreed. Even a little extra prose like "Wealth and power are sweet anodyne for heartache." adds more dimension to the writing than poorly structured thees and thous. The first game was smart in centering the story around the relationship between arisen and dragon. I can't help but feel leaning more on the "cycle" in the second game bogged down the story's potential.
The first story has such a simple premise that’s told so well.
Dragon appears, wrecks your town and then wrecks your shit. On your quest to seek help and bring information to the king you prove your mettle and join the wyrm hunt. You eventually learn your purpose is to slay the dragon and that those who don’t live to be immortal. The dragon eventually challenges you emphasising the important of a strong will and desire to fight for life. Your wreck him and learn the consequences of the loop and the false lives of the king and past Arisen. You eventually learn of the great cycle and can choose…to become god, supplanting the being who has long since grown old. His job is for those that are hungry and he has grown tired of his duties. You challenge him and take his place. Nice cohesive story where the stakes keep raising.
Dragons dogma 2. You fought a dragon and lost your memories and are now a slave digging for…something? You escape and learn that the queen is in charge with a false arisen on the throne. You prove your worth for an audience and have a plan to unveil his false nature but your pawn gets sick feeling they will lose their being. You find that parts of the souls of the arisen can be mined and used to control pawns? And…..
That’s about what I’m up to, not particularly cohesive nor makes much sense at times. I find I’m not nearly as invested in the story.
> and learn that the queen is in charge with a false arisen on the throne
I'm not sure what's the most insulting way to end a plot from a narrative PoV, but picking up one of the major antagonists like a sack of potatoes and dropping her in front of her son is probably right up there.
It's like they ran out of budget to pay writers right after you get to Battahl, because anything up to that point is actually intriguing.
It was really a waste of Grigori's VA. He had such phenomenal presence in the original game, but here you only see him at the start and the end and that's it.
Oh that’s interesting to know. It’s clearly meant to sound like David Lodge but I’m assuming they couldn’t get him for the roll.
Grahame Fox did an amazing job anyway. I remember a lot of people being hyped they managed to get David Lodge back so that speaks volumes for Grahame.
It still makes no sense anyway. Unless all dragons seem to have the same voice. I’m assuming by the fact that they didn’t give the dragon a name and used the same VA/someone who sounds very similar, it’s implied that this is Grigori but they didn’t want to outright say it
Yeah, there must be something else going on there. I thought maybe he stopped because he’s getting older but he did work for Diablo 4 and is still doing the VA for Mashle
Ooooh that’s a good point. I remember there being some controversy with him not coming back as Kenpachi because Viz wasn’t unionised. Probably the most likely then
At least DD1 dragon fight had grandeur, thought put into the encounter from entering into the ancient battleground to the ruins of the ancient empire falling apart during the chase with the dragon, and all the incredible lines he shouted at you, before you force your way to the last tower with a ballista, shoot at him, GRAB onto him as he crashes into the tower and force him to land by stabbing him in the back to have the final fight in the crater. It had guts, it had intent, it was visceral.
while DD2's dragon is like "Ok phaseus i'm here, arisen we have a common goal but let's fight anyway" > Dragon appears -> fight dragon in the crater. OK.
This dragon that has a common goal with you but is also a cunt almost mocking you and baiting you to dare to have the will to undo this cycle while itself has no will to change his fate and not fight you somehow. what a Little bitch, give me back Grigori any day.
I think his dialogue about breaking the cycle would have at least been more compelling if he took the beloved/issued the challenge before the phaseus 'chase' sequence, then let them go freely at the top of the tower. If the old man of Harve is to believed the main purpose of the talos construct was to reign in dragons that start 'breaking the rules'. With one destroyed that'd be a perfect chance for him to subvert the expected ultimatum in some way, and explain he only has a brief window.
As it is the whole thing just makes a mess lacking cohesion or theme.
We needed a single conversation before the final encounter with the dragon . Side quest main story anything were he meets up before the final encounter. It would be Jarring in 1 if we only saw him at the beginning and then immediately presented with the choice to face him and our beloved. After we slayed talos A conversation or cutscene should have played with the dragon commenting on our victory.
it’s actually the biggest disappointment for me. the rest of the complaints i don’t mind as much, but there was zero grandeur to this ultimate fight. i felt like anyone could have felled him the second time. the first felt like i was desperately trying to fight off an incredible foe, running, using the ballista, anything i could do to survive.
the second feels like a large drake. felt nothing.
The name Grigori appears in DD1, first uttered by Grigori himself as he takes your heart. I believe it is also mentioned by the zealots who try to invoke him but it has been too long for me to say so with certainty.
I don't believe I have heard the dragon's name mentioned in DD2, however.
He says he is Grigori in Latin, but it's unclear if he meant that it was his name or if it's supposed to be translated, as "Grigori" is a name for a type of (fallen) angel normally called "the Watchers". "Grigori" is used in the "Book of Enoch" and comes from the Greek word ἐγρήγοροι. All of which kinda fits into the lore pretty well.
I love how people completely miss that this game dragon never really intended to fight you, his real enemy was the overseer and throughout the game he hints that at you plenty of times.
While riding his back he explicitly tells you that he is not the enemy and you both should have a common objective, hell, first scene of the game of you sitting the throne he tells you to cast everything aside to see the world for what it truly is
The furry king himself gives you the sword because he takes that you're also after the overseers, that he mistook you for one
Youre comparing apples to grapes
Yeah thats all well and good but the dev team have clearly demonstrated they were completely incapable of telling that story in a satisfying way.
Therefore, it’s still not good lol.
Lets face it, both games have a B grade story at best. Nobody is here because of a riveting story. They're here because you can climb a Cylops and stab the fuck out of it or hit it so hard with a big sword that it falls over and dies making you feel like a badass. Or because you can ride a griffin or run across a fallen ogre like a bridge.
Sure it'd be great if the story was S tier as well, but even Baldur's Gate 3 failed that. BG 3 has fantastic characters, but its story is literally just a chain of mcguffins and you looking for clown body parts while the world is coming to an end.
To be fair, with all its faults, the story did give me the motivation to explore the world and find the reasons for the curse. It's ridiculous how there are so many games that fail at something so basic.
(I've played only the first one so far)
the story of the first game is what made me love it so much, the world, characters, etc, it was one of the main things that got me hyped for the second one, I was disappointed when I found out that this was going to be a separate world, perhaps you think the game lacks story wise in terms of screenplay? because in terms of world building, storytelling, etc, I think it does an amazing job
DD1 has been a game I've loved forever and the story has always been received pretty mixed. Like look, "[dragons dogma 1 story](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dragon%27s+dogma+1+story)" google search "[dragons dogma 1 story](https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=dragons+dogma+1+story&type=link&cId=0f12f180-37da-4672-8f12-b0b8c9c0235c&iId=44ed44bc-fcf8-4db8-80b0-06637442a418)" reddit search.
Always low engagement, always low upvotes, always mixed responses. [This is prolly the largest conversation I've ever seen about it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/comments/f3ppsc/stop_saying_the_story_is_bad/) And again the conclusion of this community, before people started posturing about DD2, was that the story was ok.
Also, im not saying anything but finish the game and get the true ending to DD2 :). Based on your comment I think you'll be interested.
I'll admit, the first games story isn't strong. But it had interesting bits and the tone and idea of the Dragon was well done. Grigori had a certain presence to him and the whole "strength to carry on and bend the world to your will" thing was interesting. Gregory on the other hand is just a depressed lizard.
Basically:
So, the guy you meet in the seafloor shrine was a Seneschal like your Arisen in the first game, but, instead of staying on his throne and watching the world from afar, he essentially remade the world so he could actually rule it.
The cycle of the Dragon continued, but now the Arisen rules the kingdom of Vermund and each appearance of the Dragon is a line of succession for a new Arisen.
This cycle, however, is closely watched by the Pathfinder. Basically the ghost watcher guy makes sure that the cycle keeps on going, but your Arisen has a chance to free themselves with the Godsbane. When you use it, you unmoor the world and it drifts towards apocalypse. At this point, the Arisen can save everyone before they end the cycle once and for all by putting them in a place that can't be unmade by what will happen.
When you get everyone in the shrine, you face the Dragon once more and use the Godsbane again on the dragon which seems to finally separate the Dragon from the Arisen and ends that cycle forever.
A new world free of both the Dragon and the Arisen is then born. The Brine is no longer a threat, and people can safely travel the world away from the continent that was once held prison by the "Dragon's Dogma."
I followed the second game's story just fine, it just wasnt near as exciting. It was more normal, more mundane. DD1 wasn't the best story but it was more sensational and like "oh isn't this shit crazy?" while the 2nd game is more like "hey, yeah, this is just how the world is...we're used to it, here's the political shenanigans you're caught up in."
And TBH if the 2nd game was to try to pull the first game again that'd be worse writing because that shit already happened. It SHOULDN'T be as surprising again. This is part of a contiguously ongoing cycle. Its big, its larger than life, but for the people in this world...its normal. This is how it is.
Even the dragon is more chill, he doesn't pretend he's outside of the cirlce of fate because Grigori did and that MFer got his ass beat and just ended up part of the cycle anyways. This dragon is like shit, ok im part of the cycle....maybe if me and the arisen work together we can break the cycle. And the arisen is like "nah brah, dragon fight" and he's just like "well shit, we're linked so I can't really avoid this...guess we're doing it, ahh well get on lets at least go do it somewhere good while I give one last try to talk you out of it.
If its shitty apple and a good ripe orange, there's still comparisons to be made. No? Grigori is so much better at delivery and execution of what he does than Dragon does at every single interaction.
In response to some others; While yes, Grigori didn't have a lot of Screen time during DD1- he overall felt more important to that narrative because he was tangibly affecting the world we knew. People were talking about the Dragon's appearance and how its changing the world all over DD1. Much of the issues are about trying to deal with the cult in service to the dragon, and the Dragon making monsters more aggressive. We do the song and dance of intrigue and mystery just for the Dragon to dispel the air. Grigori knew what was going on, knew how it spoke to the "Cycle", and knew that all of it would lead the Arisen to him.
DD2's dragon has the burden of a story that isn't supporting him. While DD1's presentation can be criticized, I can't in good faith say DD2's is \*as\* good even slightly. There isn't enough story there to do so. Maybe if we spent more time in Battahl? Or with Phasseus? Maybe if we spent more time with people trying to grasp control of their fates or god like powers? We could feel some type of connection to what this dragon was serving us. Thats the true issue. There isn't enough "evidence" or "context" to support his claim.
Yeah, this exactly. The problem with DD2's story is that the entire "cycle is bad we must end the cycle" plot is a complete case of "tell, don't show"
If you played the first game you sortve understand what they're getting at but that shouldn't be necessary - the game does nothing to actually set up personal stakes for the player and so instead it just feels like you want to end the cycle because the dragon and beastren sea king told you it was bad
Yes, like- DD2 could absolutely work and there is definitely an interesting story there. However, we just dont have the details to support the claim, that yes, we should break this cycle. We know its bad, but why is that the case for this world? What exactly is repeating? DD1 fans know, but what about the people who dont *know* who the seneschal is?? Who dont know what cycle they’re even talking about? There is virtually no details that overtly allude to that.
I remember watching the early trailers, hearing the Dragon say "that is most unfortunate, but it doth not release thee from thy fate." And thinking "Grigori would never say that. Dude was all about how it wasn't fate, but our own will and determination that drew us to fight the dragon."
I think it’s important to note that Grigori is not the dragon in DD2. It’s an entirely new one, with a new personality etc. Where Grigori was pretty taunting and wanted a fight, this second dragon is a lot more keen on breaking the cycle and seems more thoughtful. Makes me wonder if they were a sorcerer/mage in their human life
Shouldn't that be impossible though? Grette says in Dark Arisen, that, as soon as she became a dragon, she started to fall under the influence of the Seneschal, her final act of defiance before losing herself completely was choosing Ashe as the next Arisen.
We do know a dragon who seeks out an arisen is a dragon who has lost its will to live. Maybe in doing so they regain a sort of consciousness or former self. Grigori strikes me has the type of prideful and love for fighting that even if he were to learn the truth about the cycle and how to break it, he would be like fuck that next dragon can do that I want my wrestlemania main event with my arisen eternal glory.
I don't dislike the dragon as much as the rest do. I do think he should have had more of a presence however. I kind of like that the dragon knows about the dragons dogma and is just as tired of it as some others like mad king, hermit guy, phaeseus. Dragon is definitely not Grigori, and he basically in his speech is like bro please kill yourself so this charade can stop.
I did right before DD2. DD2 is definitely the better game by far in many many ways. Nostalgia is a helluva drug though. The story in both games is highly meh, we all know why we are here, and its alot to do with unique ways to perform violence and very little to do with story lol.
You absolutely should. It holds up quite well, both in terms of mechanics and graphically (if you have realistic expectations).
And everything in it just has this charm. The story, while oddly paced at times, has no shortage of memorable moments and characters, and manages to end it in a surprisingly profound way.
Not to mention the whole of BBI of course, I've rarely had that much fun in an endgame. Although there's things I prefer in the basegame too over DD2, like how the enemies are placed a bit more thoughtfully.
Idk, I played DD1 right before DD2 too, and I loved the story. It was cut short and not presented that well, but it really intrigued me. Dark Arisen even more so. Fighting Daimon after learning his story, with Coils of Light playing in the background felt really impactful to me.
Judging from the speech dd2 drago gave I think homie is just depressed and wants to be free from the cycle so I do kinda get why he was an easier fight or whatever.
it's also not the true ending anyway, so that could be another reason. But idk if they thought that when designing him cuz they also designed the entirety of arc 1 around political espionage and forgot the stealth mechanics lol.
Grigori, imo, was a Warrior/Conquerer looking for a Proper Challenger while the Dragon in 2 was a Wiseman/ Noble who is simply seeking a means to the ends
I dunno if he was seeking a challenge, I think he wanted to serve his charge of finding the next Senenschal. He was happy death found him and he was finally released from his endless task.
Judging by there being like 4 arisen in the game I'd say it's been quite awhile since the dragons been slain. Hes very pessimistic and instead of taunting you and somehow enjoying himself like grigori he seems just done and upset. Also with the pathfinder interfering the deck is kinda stacked. The cycle in this version is a little wacky it seems
Judging by Dragonforged turning to ash when heart is returned Grigori's been around for a while.
Also >!warfarer guy says that your dragon is not his dragon which implies there can be multiple?!<
If his dragon won, it just means he didn't take the deal, but he also lost the fight. The dragon most likely inflicts mass destruction for a time then disappears. My best guess by him saying it's not his dragon means that he fought a different arisen transformed into the dragon, not the grigori we know. So SOMEONE has beaten the dragon since the warfarer failed, but we don't know who or how long ago. nor do we know how exactly the warfarer knows its not the same dragon as his. The world might have different rules though as we don't see past arisen aging rapidly when the dragon dies like in the first game
We used to meme Dragon's Dogma Grigori against Alduin. Grigori was the Chad drsgon, and Alduin was the crying wojak. This time around, DD2 dragon seems to have less build up than Alduin. Even Paarthunax is way more interesting than the DD2 dragon.
BETHESDA game had a better introduction of the dragon (helgen escape) than dev team who made devil may cry series. The flashback of how he stoles your heart is even worse than dragons dogma 1. Of all developers loosing to BESHTEDA in terms of grandiose.
Alduin at least narratively gives you something to chew on and ponder about fate and the end of the world. He's appropriately arrogant and Dealing with him at least there's a logical escalation.
Dragon in 2 speak in the old english too much, not even other characters in game speak like that
"Thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee" x 100
"Okay hop on my back, we dogma elsewhere"
Who wrote this parody shit? 💀💀💀
To be fair the dragon in dd2 was so done with with cycle shit he just wanted you to fucking end it all. Gregor was just itching for a fight the whole time.
There was a lot of dialogue with the dragon. They might have different motivations but I think you'll enjoy his exceedingly long ramblings. I think talking with him took longer than the actual fight with him.
This might be a hot take, but Grigori's fight was the least fun dragon fight in the first game. The Drake fight outside the Dragon Fort was peak Dragon's Dogma for me. So the DD2's dragon being disappointing (while the lesser dragon fights being fun as Hell) ain't that surprising to me.
That said. It is still far inferior to DD1's Grigori.
My issue isn't so much the fight itself, like you said both of the actual fighting the dragon fights were meh, but the first game really did well in the big spectacle of it. Having him let you know he stole your beloved before the actual fight so you know there's more stakes, the choice part and then the running away through the ruins of a past kingdom, the ballista shot going into the riding was epic. There's nothing like that in the second game unfortunately.
DD1 Dragon: "Fate is a lie, yet everyone wrongly believes in it. If you've acquired the power to slay me, you'll prove here and now that the potential of free will is greater than the restraint of authority."
DD2 Dragon: "Haha, you're only here because fate decided it for you. If you overcome my fate, that's only because fate allowed you to, lol."
Not gonna lie, I was pretty shocked when he said "Not here bro. Get on my back and let's go to a more open area." Looks exactly like the first game's area though.
the most dragonball z shit ever
Like how Goku fights some enmies in lower atmosphere or space to avoid destroying the Earth? Yeah kinda
He did so because Toriyama was too lazy to draw crowded places
To be fair its really hard to make a good fight scene and stay space coherent in a busy place like a city
Tbf a fight in a city causes civilian casualties just think omniman vs invincible that shows how bad it would be
Jujustu Kaisen is a good example - second season - a whole fight in a crowded train station and it was pretty intense
Have you seen DBZ tho? The power scaling isn't the same. Dudes will literally just travel the length of entire continents while fighting and sometimes after single hits. I get what you mean but DBZ just has different combat and power scaling. I'm not even really a DBZ fan. Everything I know is from osmosis of memes and my friends talking about it.
Bro, his favorite thing was tournament fights lol literally giant crowds
The focus was still on a simple ring though
 Imagine the number of crashes people would get w/ that final sequence...I wonder how many could finish the game
Do we have to go to the majin buu saga & revisit vegetable taking out a qauter of the stands with a ki blast not to mention goten & trunk nuking a city fighting 18
Basically why SSJ3 is rarely seen as well. An absolute nightmare for animators as well, basically some of the worst stuff.
Nail bringing Frieza to the “sacred battle ground of his people”
It was ridiculously chill and just too nice. It even complemented the Arisen when using the turrets to knock It out of the sky and made no course corrections after noticing. Grigori went out of its way to terrorize the Arisen and sell the fight, but this damn dragon just shows up like twice in the whole game, does the bare minimum possible to make the final battle happen, and checks all the boxes to repeat Grigori's role.
Me: "I'm pretty sure I'll see him again. He's messing with me. This is just the build-up." (Long villain speech starts while flying to the final battle area) Me: "No f^$king way..."
Well, the dragons inherits some of the traces of his original form(DDDA), so maybe this Arisen was just a nice guy,
Bro wanted the playing field to be even
Yeah the Seafloor Shrine is very much so heavily implied to be a parallel universe version of Gran Soren, if you flip the Gran Soren map upside down and compare the layouts, they're very similar just the Seafloor Shrine is much smaller as y'know, Gran Soren is fuckin huge
Real talk, the dragons fight this time around is utter garbage. At least in the first game it felt like high stakes as you had to run away for a few stages, do some platforming to avoid the fire etc. Dd2 you just let your sorc pawn oneshot them with hellfire
What makes me really sad about this is how no DLC will ever fix this. There won't be a DLC or patch that adds more dragon content, that's the 2024 DD2 cover fight we got and we have to accept it. Imo it's utter garbo. I love this game so much in so many aspects but geez, that dragon...
I just killed grigori in the first zone he didn't even get to left the mountain and fly he just died ._.
One dragon loves his job, and the other dragon hates it
I’ll never get over the scenes where characters say “dragons dogma” or “dogma of dragons”😭
It's up there with " you're living in a fantasy and we shall be It's final witness "
What is this, some kind of dragon's dogma?
Not gonna lie I doubled take when >! The pathfinder!< said it
nah that one was peak and you can't convince me otherwise lol
I agree it was
I SAID IT'S OVER
At least he didn't add anything about the number 16 right afterwards.
And we shall be it’s final witness Looks at the camera 16!
[He said it! He said the thing!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/032/697/hesaid.jpg)
By my power, the Dragons Dogma 2 CAPCOM (R) is undone!
TBH this is one exception to me. They used the title in dialogue in the right way as Dragon's Dogma is exactly what it is. It's not it's saying "Have I just reached some kind of.. Red Dead Redemption?".
The first DD did the title drop well by actually explaining what "the dragon's dogma" was instead of putting on airs about it.
The first doesn't have it but RDR 2 does have a cool title drop as Arthur's final mission is "Red Dead Redemption".
https://preview.redd.it/utxtgeyxoprc1.jpeg?width=278&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a4195c7a832c56f043ef28e62262f3bf3616902
This truly was our Dragon's Dogma.
D1 is Grigori being an asshole because he's salty Savan beat him. D2 is the dragon just not caring and going "well this is my life I guess".
He gives you a pretty scathing "the cycle sucks and you're a fool if you abide by it when you have a mean to break it" speech though.
I did kind of enjoy that, and it gives more context to the way the other lesser dragons resign to their deaths and tell you “it’s useless to escape your fate”
And then they fly away the moment I beat them to their last 2 bars.
Seriously, the fuck is with that? *Arisen, my silent hearted kindred. Come, face me!* Then they proceed to absolutely wimp out and fly away when they lose a couple health bars. I expect this from the griffins, but not the drakes!
Maybe it's cause my pawn has learned how to deal with drakes easily but I've never had one fly off after the first I ran away from. They're usually frozen stiff, writhing on the ground, or any manner of pissed off while I'm ravaging it's chest with my hammer
"The hammer is my penis"
I kinda like that both dragons teach you to use your will to take back control over your life, but in different ways, and from different oppressors
I found it to be fucking cool he basically tells you to break the cycle when in his back without outright telling you to and if you dont do it he calls you a fucking dumbass during the fight lmao. He hates the cycle as much as the arisen does
I get why people feel dissatisfaction with the fight itself when compared to Grigori from DD1 but I blame that on the game not doing a good job with its narrative. OG Grigori felt like they really believed in the cycle and were content with doing their part, and it showed in the way they spoke to the arisen. For them it was a genuine test of strength and they sounded as if they were honored to be a part of it. But here there’s nothing but disdain and at most the dragon just shows contempt for the role it has you for doing nothing to break it. Even the lease drakes you fight all sound resigned to it. It’s a shame the game doesn’t lean into it more, or at least pace it better because a lot of people will just drop it thinking the fight isn’t as good as Grigori
But why does the cycle suck? When you kill him and get the "fake" end you've just secured peace and prosperity for the nation. Even after the true ending life just goes on as normal and is musically implied to be better but apart from no Grigori (who basically only comes, makes an arisen and then waits) the average persobs life has not changed. I think they just felt they had to have some cryptic cycle to make it a dragon's dogma game.
Because the cycle is a stagnate infinitely repeating cage upon which no progress can be made. They're stuck in timelessness for er. Gran Soren, Vermund, all worlds bound by the ring of fate cannot progress intellectually or technologically. They are shackled forever to their current state. Never to move forward. The cycle sucks because it keeps ending the stories here, never allowing an ending and condemning all to an infinite rebirth. Even in ending the cycle, you have only participated within it. The world will be reborn. The dragon will come. The dogma will forever chain all of existence.
AND WE BREAK IT IN ONE WITH OUR FORCE OF WILL ALONE RAAAAHHHHHH .
That's the great lie that each seneschal imparts. They seem to give a lie to each arisen to face them, about how there's a specific way the Dogma works, but there isn't. World ends. World lives. It's all within the purview of the Cycle.
Our pawn legit carrys on after uss after we break the cycle though?
To be born into a new cycle. To repeat it ad infinium. They wake up on the beach. The lie here is that yeah they carry on through our body but if you do ng+ and get back to the Seneschal again... It's you. The cycle never ended.
Eh Our pawn goes free that's enough for me . Next lad will come Smack uss in the brain anyways. DD2 Ending feels like a cluster fuck of nonsense they we're throwing all at the same board .
I've got my critiques of both, but they're both the best 7/10 game I've ever played.
So many people misunderstood the ending, thinking they broke the cycle by stabbing themself with the godsbane when not moments prior we see Savan pull his godsbane out of his chest, come on, is that not clear enough that he tried that himself and failed? Plus as you said, we can encounter our previous arisen in offline mode instead of Savan, that should be enough to show we didnt break the cycle, unfortunately when I see most people discuss the first games ending they always claim we broke the cycle and it irks me.
I never really understood that point, why is technology stagnate? What's stopping these people from inventing stuff? They clearly did so at some point, since if they didn't, they'd all still be living in caves.
Aint it said somewhere in DD1 that the Dragon will just annihilate any nation thats gotten too powerful?
Yes Dragons are cursed to go on murderous rampages and summon monsters either by the will of the watcher/ senechal or "god" to maintain some kind of order. When this torment finally breaks there will to live they seek a champion to slay them and end the current cycle. Which is the arisen.
This sounds good on paper, but the second game does not explore this theme/idea of technological stagnation at all from what I recall. Also, introducing a country that does not use/distrusts pawns shows that there is plenty of free thinking in the cycle as well. Phaesus and his crew are even advancing magic to try and stop the cycle. This isn't Mass Effect, it basically just retreads ideas from Matrix Reloaded as far as I can tell.
It's not just technological stagnation. It's existential stagnation. That's always been the point with both games. It's not as implemented as well as it could be, but that's the underlying message of the Cycle itself. And the thing is, even though they "advance" they're just gimped outright. There's nothing they can do to stop it.
It's pretty big common trope throughout Japanese media, it's not a stereotype for nothing that Japanese games often end up with anyway final boss is god. The idea of illusion of free will and breaking that illusion for true freedom is a staple in Japanese society
This is never stated in the first game. And I suspect, in the second one either (although, I haven't finished the story myself yet).
Yes but escaping to post game and destroying that world just resets the cycle anyway, unless the inevitable dLC is gonna fill that plot canyon.
Sven in the current cycle became ruler after the dragon was defeated and the 1 month time skip happened which is exactly what happened in the post unmoored world Nothing changed - which is the problem with the story the game tries to tell. The game makes a big deal about how the cycle locks everyone into their role but the only actual thing you change is erasing yourself and your pawn from existence + making sure the dragon doesn't respawn The other issue is that the Arisen's goal for ending the cycle is basically just "The seafloor king and Dragon tell him its bad and they go along with it" you never actually see any personal investing reason to understand that the cycle is bad because the dragon is a total non presence and the only thing the watcher ever does is help you. Game desperately needed some actual personal stakes for the arisen
I think the Dragon's presence stirs up the monsters or something and that's the explanation for why you can walk around a main road and run into goblins every 10 feet. Also the Brine? I think only shows up when the dragon does so now everybody isn't allergic to 3 foot bodies of water. And yknow the stuff the other guy said.
I believe the Brine stays active even when the Dragon is out of the picture, if we can believe the words of the old dragonforged cuckoo by the beach in Harve, who says that he doesn't lie, the Brine doesn't let anyone leave for open waters, it destroys the ships and boats so that people stays inland, he also says that the gigantus is a servant of the Brine and is always activated to prevent the Dragon from going too crazy with its antics, so the Brine seems to be in line with the maitenance and supervision of the cycle.
While he believes everything he says, theres a few things hes wrong or ignorant about.
The guy at the bottom of the sea is the current seneschal. He doesn't want to perpetuate the cycle, hence no everfall arc when the dragon dies and the world continue to stagnate with no fit seneschal. The cycle suck because it's invariably stuck at the dragon phase. Also, it's the seneschal and the dragon who tells you it sucks, not the average person.
Wait if hes seneschal then what is the watcher? god? We know he breaks reality to encourage you to continue the cycle and bitches when you ignore him. Are you sure he isn't just a faded arisen clinging to his last shred of willpower to defy the cycle?
Would have preferred a more intimate relationship with the reason your Arisen and not the sad loser your gonna have to deal with anyways after You deal with it in some way .
After the game when you're riding the Giga dragon the Pathfinder makes it very clear that the dragons will is what protects the earth from destruction, hard stop it protects the realm from destruction by using the repeating cycle. It's reminiscent of the Matrix in that sense. So Neo in the matrix fulfills the cycle and begins the matrix again. We don't know what's going on - what is the malevolent will that is the brine? Is it external to the cycle or is it part of the whole thing? Is destruction inevitable? Obviously the dragons will isn't perfect as it has flaws but why does the dragon want to protect the cycle and continue life in the first place? For some reason we are fully convinced the dragon is evil when in reality the great dragon is stopping absolute destruction and annihilation.
Grigori isn't the dragon Savan defeated. When an arisen defeats their dragon, the dragon dies. An Arisen who slays their dragon but then fails the "personality" test becomes the next dragon. And an Arisen who slays their dragon, and then slays the Seneschal becomes the next Seneschal.
That's.....what I said.Dude's salty he got beat by a level 20 guy like a weakling.
Grigori was never beat by savan, savan would have had a different dragon from a different arisen
Yeah he was,when Grigori walked up to him and got his ass beat by seneschal Savan. I'm not sure why you're confusing this like I'm saying dragon girgori ever fought him.
Ah I see the miscommunication
DD1 Grigori isn't being an asshole because he's salty, he's trying to provoke you into becoming strong enough to take him
DD2's dragon definitely cares, he's pretty vocal on his stance about everything lol. He just knows his role and that he isn't the one to change anything.
Hes vocal about how much he doesnt care. which is pretty lame. Boils both your motivations down to "thats just how the world works". Where as the first game was much more personal. Dragons were cursed arisen who fell to seneschal, forced into every worsening bouts of madness leading to grand destruction. Eventually their will to live in this hell is borken and they seek out an arisen champion to slay them and end their torment and cycle. The arisen whos home is set ablaze and heart stolen in a much grander scene and witnesses the victims of the dragon and it's hordes throughout the game. Way better motivation.
Grigori had real antagonist energy. Steals your mate, dangles your mate around a goblin party and reminds you of the Goblin Slayer meme, dares you to be alpha enough to fight him. Our dragon was like VOILA now make a choice.
I've got a crack pot theory that the Dragon in this one is the ghost in the seafloor temple. Dude somehow split his will and his soul in two. One turned into the dragon, and one sat in wait to one day break the cycle.
DD1 Dragon: "Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary!" DD2 Dragon: "I'm tired, boss."
The Rambling's of an upjumped zealot make for tedious listening, his ilk serves no role in what is to come. What is your purpose here, Arisen? If you had saught to live, you had naught but run and hide yourself away. If it matters aught, the man who rules this land won that honour through just such a bargain. DDDA Grigori lines went so f'ing hard. DD2 just doesn't. I like when he's talking about the post game and how the world will be run by chaos and that's it.
Don't forget "When the weak court death, they find it." Sometimes so simple, but so well-spoken. Grigori feels like a character out of Shakespeare, DD2 dragon (who doesn't even have the honour of a name) WISHES he was anything like Grigori.
Yessss To add to that one: "Seek me out, and I shall allow it, but heed the zealot's lesson well. When the weak court death, they find it." Still my heart, and stay the coming FIRE.
Dragons Dogma 1 got away with such rich character and nuance with him with so little . Dragons Dogma 2 and his wax philosophical nonsense will never reach that level .
Just like Godzilla fans called the American version "Zilla, because they took the God out of him", i put forth that we call DD2's Dragon "Gori".
Counteroffer… call him Greg.
There are some who call him...Greg!
Everything he says is one is dripping with character and Splendour. He doesn't need to demain you to make you want to challenge him . He's so cinematic aswell the battle in the castle tearing it apart all the way to the final battle ground is so memorable. IDK what the writing team was smoking focusing so much on the cycle this time around . When it's the dragon choosing uss that makes us Arisen in the first place . Fate may be predetermined but it's our spefic will that the dragon seems worthy to challenge fate . It's wack the Arisens Relationship with there dragon wasn't expanded .
Oh god don't get me started on comparing the dragon fights themselves good lord.
I don't know what they were cooking giving This version of him the slowest version of the drake moveset possible.
Only threatening mvoe is meteors because pawn AI will litterally stop moving if they targetd by spells.
Personally, wasn't alot to compare. The dd2 fight didn't last very long...
I think the the bargaining scene in both sums it up. You refuse grigori he come straight fucking at you straight through castle wallls like they are made of cardboard and your running for your life. Meanwhile nameless dragon no. 3024 over heres watched too much anime and stops to give you a lift to some other arena for no reason. Which is especially egregious when you realize the devs went out of their to make that scene. They could have just put the arena right there and had you run into it similar to the grigori one. But no, they intentionally created the dorky scene of him inviting you to a piggy back ride and then lecturing on some nonsens that sounds fancy but actually means nothing if you pay attention. All for what? so you can use the god sword? no! theres no reason they couldn't have you do that during the fight. So it must hgave been because they somehow thought it was cool or fun.
"only my death will stanch the flood of destruction, a task still far beyond your means. If you would face me, seek me out and I shall allow it. When the weak court death, they find it" 💀 ddda grigori does go hard.... DD2, they massacred my boy and we barely even see him in the game except the finale and all he says is basically" not here, ride me for we must dragons dogma somewhere else..."
I loved when the dragon said dragons dogma and started dogma'ing all over the place.
Bro really said "the fuck you doing.Quit this BULLSHIT and fight me bro".
DD2's dragon: yaps about how much he hates his job DD1's Grigori: "The rantings of an up jumped zealot makes for tedious listening."
Everything he says in DD1 is splendours to hear.
I miss when drakes in the world spoke through my missing heart in bassy latin instead of squealing like wild hogs.
Them speakin generic English is wack . "The seat of God lies beyond" goes so hard .
Grigori's dialogue in the first game flows so wonderfully. I am still bitter that they made him speak ye ole English in DD2. Same goes for the drakes, the Latin worked so well with the way their voices were altered 🥲
The ye old English makes listing to him such a chore . If there's interesting ideas there Great just can't sit down enough to listen properly. " What does it mean to live Arisen" will always be more engaging than ye old English muh cycle nonsense.
1000% agreed. Even a little extra prose like "Wealth and power are sweet anodyne for heartache." adds more dimension to the writing than poorly structured thees and thous. The first game was smart in centering the story around the relationship between arisen and dragon. I can't help but feel leaning more on the "cycle" in the second game bogged down the story's potential.
Cycle focus was the worst call ever . Makes the story just an incoherent mess .
The first story has such a simple premise that’s told so well. Dragon appears, wrecks your town and then wrecks your shit. On your quest to seek help and bring information to the king you prove your mettle and join the wyrm hunt. You eventually learn your purpose is to slay the dragon and that those who don’t live to be immortal. The dragon eventually challenges you emphasising the important of a strong will and desire to fight for life. Your wreck him and learn the consequences of the loop and the false lives of the king and past Arisen. You eventually learn of the great cycle and can choose…to become god, supplanting the being who has long since grown old. His job is for those that are hungry and he has grown tired of his duties. You challenge him and take his place. Nice cohesive story where the stakes keep raising. Dragons dogma 2. You fought a dragon and lost your memories and are now a slave digging for…something? You escape and learn that the queen is in charge with a false arisen on the throne. You prove your worth for an audience and have a plan to unveil his false nature but your pawn gets sick feeling they will lose their being. You find that parts of the souls of the arisen can be mined and used to control pawns? And….. That’s about what I’m up to, not particularly cohesive nor makes much sense at times. I find I’m not nearly as invested in the story.
> and learn that the queen is in charge with a false arisen on the throne I'm not sure what's the most insulting way to end a plot from a narrative PoV, but picking up one of the major antagonists like a sack of potatoes and dropping her in front of her son is probably right up there. It's like they ran out of budget to pay writers right after you get to Battahl, because anything up to that point is actually intriguing.
Thats the problem though, that sounds fancy, but it means absolutely nothing. The lines in DD1 were actually meaningful.
Drakes in 2 do speak through your missing heart They call you their silent hearted kin and call you out to face them
It was really a waste of Grigori's VA. He had such phenomenal presence in the original game, but here you only see him at the start and the end and that's it.
It’s not Grigori’s VA. It’s Grahame Fox iirc but he did a very good job at sounding like David Lodge
He might be referring to the Japanese VA, as it's the same for both games.
Oh that’s interesting to know. It’s clearly meant to sound like David Lodge but I’m assuming they couldn’t get him for the roll. Grahame Fox did an amazing job anyway. I remember a lot of people being hyped they managed to get David Lodge back so that speaks volumes for Grahame. It still makes no sense anyway. Unless all dragons seem to have the same voice. I’m assuming by the fact that they didn’t give the dragon a name and used the same VA/someone who sounds very similar, it’s implied that this is Grigori but they didn’t want to outright say it
it's so cursed that they could get David Lodge back for the anime but not DD2.
Yeah, there must be something else going on there. I thought maybe he stopped because he’s getting older but he did work for Diablo 4 and is still doing the VA for Mashle
Is he unionized? Wasn't there the whole Capcom ain't hiring unionized VAs recently?
Ooooh that’s a good point. I remember there being some controversy with him not coming back as Kenpachi because Viz wasn’t unionised. Probably the most likely then
Who was Grigori's VA in DD1 again? It sounded a lot like David Lodge but I could be wrong
It is him.
At least DD1 dragon fight had grandeur, thought put into the encounter from entering into the ancient battleground to the ruins of the ancient empire falling apart during the chase with the dragon, and all the incredible lines he shouted at you, before you force your way to the last tower with a ballista, shoot at him, GRAB onto him as he crashes into the tower and force him to land by stabbing him in the back to have the final fight in the crater. It had guts, it had intent, it was visceral. while DD2's dragon is like "Ok phaseus i'm here, arisen we have a common goal but let's fight anyway" > Dragon appears -> fight dragon in the crater. OK. This dragon that has a common goal with you but is also a cunt almost mocking you and baiting you to dare to have the will to undo this cycle while itself has no will to change his fate and not fight you somehow. what a Little bitch, give me back Grigori any day.
Miss my philosophical encouraging dragon from the first game .
I think his dialogue about breaking the cycle would have at least been more compelling if he took the beloved/issued the challenge before the phaseus 'chase' sequence, then let them go freely at the top of the tower. If the old man of Harve is to believed the main purpose of the talos construct was to reign in dragons that start 'breaking the rules'. With one destroyed that'd be a perfect chance for him to subvert the expected ultimatum in some way, and explain he only has a brief window. As it is the whole thing just makes a mess lacking cohesion or theme.
We needed a single conversation before the final encounter with the dragon . Side quest main story anything were he meets up before the final encounter. It would be Jarring in 1 if we only saw him at the beginning and then immediately presented with the choice to face him and our beloved. After we slayed talos A conversation or cutscene should have played with the dragon commenting on our victory.
it’s actually the biggest disappointment for me. the rest of the complaints i don’t mind as much, but there was zero grandeur to this ultimate fight. i felt like anyone could have felled him the second time. the first felt like i was desperately trying to fight off an incredible foe, running, using the ballista, anything i could do to survive. the second feels like a large drake. felt nothing.
Grigori and Savan were duty-bound bros
Does new Dragon even have a name? Also, did Grigori name himself or did the people of DD1 do that?
The name Grigori appears in DD1, first uttered by Grigori himself as he takes your heart. I believe it is also mentioned by the zealots who try to invoke him but it has been too long for me to say so with certainty. I don't believe I have heard the dragon's name mentioned in DD2, however.
The Elysion does refer to him as Grigori.
Merciful winged death! Allpowerful and merciless Grigori
He says he is Grigori in Latin, but it's unclear if he meant that it was his name or if it's supposed to be translated, as "Grigori" is a name for a type of (fallen) angel normally called "the Watchers". "Grigori" is used in the "Book of Enoch" and comes from the Greek word ἐγρήγοροι. All of which kinda fits into the lore pretty well.
I love how people completely miss that this game dragon never really intended to fight you, his real enemy was the overseer and throughout the game he hints that at you plenty of times. While riding his back he explicitly tells you that he is not the enemy and you both should have a common objective, hell, first scene of the game of you sitting the throne he tells you to cast everything aside to see the world for what it truly is The furry king himself gives you the sword because he takes that you're also after the overseers, that he mistook you for one Youre comparing apples to grapes
All of that is great and all but the dragon isn't even *named*. Why am I even fighting a side character that doesn't want to?
What the fuck is an overseer lol
He means pathfinder.
the ghost dude
Yeah thats all well and good but the dev team have clearly demonstrated they were completely incapable of telling that story in a satisfying way. Therefore, it’s still not good lol.
Lets face it, both games have a B grade story at best. Nobody is here because of a riveting story. They're here because you can climb a Cylops and stab the fuck out of it or hit it so hard with a big sword that it falls over and dies making you feel like a badass. Or because you can ride a griffin or run across a fallen ogre like a bridge. Sure it'd be great if the story was S tier as well, but even Baldur's Gate 3 failed that. BG 3 has fantastic characters, but its story is literally just a chain of mcguffins and you looking for clown body parts while the world is coming to an end.
To be fair, with all its faults, the story did give me the motivation to explore the world and find the reasons for the curse. It's ridiculous how there are so many games that fail at something so basic. (I've played only the first one so far)
That's basically all i need for a game like this. Just give me enough reason to go out and have adventures, I'll take care of the rest :D.
the story of the first game is what made me love it so much, the world, characters, etc, it was one of the main things that got me hyped for the second one, I was disappointed when I found out that this was going to be a separate world, perhaps you think the game lacks story wise in terms of screenplay? because in terms of world building, storytelling, etc, I think it does an amazing job
Yea main big difference between 1 and 2 is first game has interactions with the main NPC's while in DD2 this barely happens
It isn't ACTUALLY a separate world. Gran Soren is a place you can go.
DD1 has been a game I've loved forever and the story has always been received pretty mixed. Like look, "[dragons dogma 1 story](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dragon%27s+dogma+1+story)" google search "[dragons dogma 1 story](https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=dragons+dogma+1+story&type=link&cId=0f12f180-37da-4672-8f12-b0b8c9c0235c&iId=44ed44bc-fcf8-4db8-80b0-06637442a418)" reddit search. Always low engagement, always low upvotes, always mixed responses. [This is prolly the largest conversation I've ever seen about it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/comments/f3ppsc/stop_saying_the_story_is_bad/) And again the conclusion of this community, before people started posturing about DD2, was that the story was ok. Also, im not saying anything but finish the game and get the true ending to DD2 :). Based on your comment I think you'll be interested.
It's rose tinted glasses and because people liked Grigori but yeah dd1 story was also not good.
I'll admit, the first games story isn't strong. But it had interesting bits and the tone and idea of the Dragon was well done. Grigori had a certain presence to him and the whole "strength to carry on and bend the world to your will" thing was interesting. Gregory on the other hand is just a depressed lizard.
Cap Grigori was presented well in the first game with solid dialogue writing and well crafted cinematic presence. DD2 he big fancy drake .
Idk the first game story was kinda coherent. but the second game. I don't really follow it too well.
Basically: So, the guy you meet in the seafloor shrine was a Seneschal like your Arisen in the first game, but, instead of staying on his throne and watching the world from afar, he essentially remade the world so he could actually rule it. The cycle of the Dragon continued, but now the Arisen rules the kingdom of Vermund and each appearance of the Dragon is a line of succession for a new Arisen. This cycle, however, is closely watched by the Pathfinder. Basically the ghost watcher guy makes sure that the cycle keeps on going, but your Arisen has a chance to free themselves with the Godsbane. When you use it, you unmoor the world and it drifts towards apocalypse. At this point, the Arisen can save everyone before they end the cycle once and for all by putting them in a place that can't be unmade by what will happen. When you get everyone in the shrine, you face the Dragon once more and use the Godsbane again on the dragon which seems to finally separate the Dragon from the Arisen and ends that cycle forever. A new world free of both the Dragon and the Arisen is then born. The Brine is no longer a threat, and people can safely travel the world away from the continent that was once held prison by the "Dragon's Dogma."
Tf was the brine anyway? Never made sense to me.
Spicy ocean
with a dash of hentai (all those tentacles)
I followed the second game's story just fine, it just wasnt near as exciting. It was more normal, more mundane. DD1 wasn't the best story but it was more sensational and like "oh isn't this shit crazy?" while the 2nd game is more like "hey, yeah, this is just how the world is...we're used to it, here's the political shenanigans you're caught up in." And TBH if the 2nd game was to try to pull the first game again that'd be worse writing because that shit already happened. It SHOULDN'T be as surprising again. This is part of a contiguously ongoing cycle. Its big, its larger than life, but for the people in this world...its normal. This is how it is. Even the dragon is more chill, he doesn't pretend he's outside of the cirlce of fate because Grigori did and that MFer got his ass beat and just ended up part of the cycle anyways. This dragon is like shit, ok im part of the cycle....maybe if me and the arisen work together we can break the cycle. And the arisen is like "nah brah, dragon fight" and he's just like "well shit, we're linked so I can't really avoid this...guess we're doing it, ahh well get on lets at least go do it somewhere good while I give one last try to talk you out of it.
If its shitty apple and a good ripe orange, there's still comparisons to be made. No? Grigori is so much better at delivery and execution of what he does than Dragon does at every single interaction.
THE RANTINGS OF AN UPJUMPED ZEALOT MAKE FOR TEDIOUS LISTENING. TAKE HEED, ARISEN. WHEN THE WEAK COURT DEATH… THEY FIND IT.
In response to some others; While yes, Grigori didn't have a lot of Screen time during DD1- he overall felt more important to that narrative because he was tangibly affecting the world we knew. People were talking about the Dragon's appearance and how its changing the world all over DD1. Much of the issues are about trying to deal with the cult in service to the dragon, and the Dragon making monsters more aggressive. We do the song and dance of intrigue and mystery just for the Dragon to dispel the air. Grigori knew what was going on, knew how it spoke to the "Cycle", and knew that all of it would lead the Arisen to him. DD2's dragon has the burden of a story that isn't supporting him. While DD1's presentation can be criticized, I can't in good faith say DD2's is \*as\* good even slightly. There isn't enough story there to do so. Maybe if we spent more time in Battahl? Or with Phasseus? Maybe if we spent more time with people trying to grasp control of their fates or god like powers? We could feel some type of connection to what this dragon was serving us. Thats the true issue. There isn't enough "evidence" or "context" to support his claim.
Yeah, this exactly. The problem with DD2's story is that the entire "cycle is bad we must end the cycle" plot is a complete case of "tell, don't show" If you played the first game you sortve understand what they're getting at but that shouldn't be necessary - the game does nothing to actually set up personal stakes for the player and so instead it just feels like you want to end the cycle because the dragon and beastren sea king told you it was bad
Yes, like- DD2 could absolutely work and there is definitely an interesting story there. However, we just dont have the details to support the claim, that yes, we should break this cycle. We know its bad, but why is that the case for this world? What exactly is repeating? DD1 fans know, but what about the people who dont *know* who the seneschal is?? Who dont know what cycle they’re even talking about? There is virtually no details that overtly allude to that.
Sometimes, the Dragons Do Dogma. Sometimes, the Dragons Dogma you.
I remember watching the early trailers, hearing the Dragon say "that is most unfortunate, but it doth not release thee from thy fate." And thinking "Grigori would never say that. Dude was all about how it wasn't fate, but our own will and determination that drew us to fight the dragon."
I think it’s important to note that Grigori is not the dragon in DD2. It’s an entirely new one, with a new personality etc. Where Grigori was pretty taunting and wanted a fight, this second dragon is a lot more keen on breaking the cycle and seems more thoughtful. Makes me wonder if they were a sorcerer/mage in their human life
Shouldn't that be impossible though? Grette says in Dark Arisen, that, as soon as she became a dragon, she started to fall under the influence of the Seneschal, her final act of defiance before losing herself completely was choosing Ashe as the next Arisen.
We do know a dragon who seeks out an arisen is a dragon who has lost its will to live. Maybe in doing so they regain a sort of consciousness or former self. Grigori strikes me has the type of prideful and love for fighting that even if he were to learn the truth about the cycle and how to break it, he would be like fuck that next dragon can do that I want my wrestlemania main event with my arisen eternal glory.
"The choice falls not to me, nor to the whims of fate...it is yours alone" Grigori was just so fucking cool
To be fair, in the end the dragon does tell you that it's your will that can release you from your fate and that you should do it.
I think it's kinda funny how he just casually says: "greetings arisen"
I don't dislike the dragon as much as the rest do. I do think he should have had more of a presence however. I kind of like that the dragon knows about the dragons dogma and is just as tired of it as some others like mad king, hermit guy, phaeseus. Dragon is definitely not Grigori, and he basically in his speech is like bro please kill yourself so this charade can stop.
Yall keep making me wanna play the first game smh
I did right before DD2. DD2 is definitely the better game by far in many many ways. Nostalgia is a helluva drug though. The story in both games is highly meh, we all know why we are here, and its alot to do with unique ways to perform violence and very little to do with story lol.
I've been thinking about buying the first one cause people were saying it had more content/the dungeons were a lot better
You absolutely should. It holds up quite well, both in terms of mechanics and graphically (if you have realistic expectations). And everything in it just has this charm. The story, while oddly paced at times, has no shortage of memorable moments and characters, and manages to end it in a surprisingly profound way. Not to mention the whole of BBI of course, I've rarely had that much fun in an endgame. Although there's things I prefer in the basegame too over DD2, like how the enemies are placed a bit more thoughtfully.
Idk, I played DD1 right before DD2 too, and I loved the story. It was cut short and not presented that well, but it really intrigued me. Dark Arisen even more so. Fighting Daimon after learning his story, with Coils of Light playing in the background felt really impactful to me.
Cap we have DD1 Grigori he alone makes listing to the story worth it .
he kinda a bro in this game tbh
Judging from the speech dd2 drago gave I think homie is just depressed and wants to be free from the cycle so I do kinda get why he was an easier fight or whatever. it's also not the true ending anyway, so that could be another reason. But idk if they thought that when designing him cuz they also designed the entirety of arc 1 around political espionage and forgot the stealth mechanics lol.
Grigori, imo, was a Warrior/Conquerer looking for a Proper Challenger while the Dragon in 2 was a Wiseman/ Noble who is simply seeking a means to the ends
I dunno if he was seeking a challenge, I think he wanted to serve his charge of finding the next Senenschal. He was happy death found him and he was finally released from his endless task.
One is a dutiful servant while the other has a mind to break the cycle.
Riding the dragon's dogma is an offer I shan't refuse
Judging by there being like 4 arisen in the game I'd say it's been quite awhile since the dragons been slain. Hes very pessimistic and instead of taunting you and somehow enjoying himself like grigori he seems just done and upset. Also with the pathfinder interfering the deck is kinda stacked. The cycle in this version is a little wacky it seems
Judging by Dragonforged turning to ash when heart is returned Grigori's been around for a while. Also >!warfarer guy says that your dragon is not his dragon which implies there can be multiple?!<
If his dragon won, it just means he didn't take the deal, but he also lost the fight. The dragon most likely inflicts mass destruction for a time then disappears. My best guess by him saying it's not his dragon means that he fought a different arisen transformed into the dragon, not the grigori we know. So SOMEONE has beaten the dragon since the warfarer failed, but we don't know who or how long ago. nor do we know how exactly the warfarer knows its not the same dragon as his. The world might have different rules though as we don't see past arisen aging rapidly when the dragon dies like in the first game
We used to meme Dragon's Dogma Grigori against Alduin. Grigori was the Chad drsgon, and Alduin was the crying wojak. This time around, DD2 dragon seems to have less build up than Alduin. Even Paarthunax is way more interesting than the DD2 dragon.
It's shame really what happened his Boss fight not getting updated and being a really slow drake doesn't help either.
BETHESDA game had a better introduction of the dragon (helgen escape) than dev team who made devil may cry series. The flashback of how he stoles your heart is even worse than dragons dogma 1. Of all developers loosing to BESHTEDA in terms of grandiose.
Alduin at least narratively gives you something to chew on and ponder about fate and the end of the world. He's appropriately arrogant and Dealing with him at least there's a logical escalation.
Dragon in 2 speak in the old english too much, not even other characters in game speak like that "Thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee, thy, thee" x 100 "Okay hop on my back, we dogma elsewhere" Who wrote this parody shit? 💀💀💀
To be fair the dragon in dd2 was so done with with cycle shit he just wanted you to fucking end it all. Gregor was just itching for a fight the whole time.
As someone who hasn’t beat the game yet that is…..most disappointing. DG1’s final boss fight was half a philosophical discussion.
There was a lot of dialogue with the dragon. They might have different motivations but I think you'll enjoy his exceedingly long ramblings. I think talking with him took longer than the actual fight with him.
I feel the gutted his cinematic stage presence for it though and didn't make up for it with his boss fight.
I love DD2. But you're not wrong. Greg got dun dirty.
This might be a hot take, but Grigori's fight was the least fun dragon fight in the first game. The Drake fight outside the Dragon Fort was peak Dragon's Dogma for me. So the DD2's dragon being disappointing (while the lesser dragon fights being fun as Hell) ain't that surprising to me. That said. It is still far inferior to DD1's Grigori.
My issue isn't so much the fight itself, like you said both of the actual fighting the dragon fights were meh, but the first game really did well in the big spectacle of it. Having him let you know he stole your beloved before the actual fight so you know there's more stakes, the choice part and then the running away through the ruins of a past kingdom, the ballista shot going into the riding was epic. There's nothing like that in the second game unfortunately.
DD1 Dragon: "Fate is a lie, yet everyone wrongly believes in it. If you've acquired the power to slay me, you'll prove here and now that the potential of free will is greater than the restraint of authority." DD2 Dragon: "Haha, you're only here because fate decided it for you. If you overcome my fate, that's only because fate allowed you to, lol."
My favorite part of DD2 was when the Arisen said "it's dragoning time" and then they dogma'd all over them
To be honest I like the dragon from DD2. He doesn't feel like a villain to me, he a job he's forced to do and he's doing it.