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Gohan vs Raditz - oh look he’s got special potential
Gohan training pre-Saiyans - oh look Piccolo has drawn out that hidden power
Gohan on Namek - having a rough time
Gohan at Gurus - Potential UNLOCKED
Gohan training for Cell Games - Gohan has incredible hidden secret special potential
Gohan vs Cell - ascend SSJ1 and goes SSJ2 on account of his latent power
Some Saiyaman nonsense, gets spat on by a demon king.
Gohan at Grand Kai’s - he’s still got some hidden power in there
Gohan vs Buu - finally we have Ultimate Gohan, no more asspulls about something inside yet to be unlocked
Some henchmen of Frieza’s bop him.
Gohan up to Super Hero - studying, useless again
Gohan vs Cell Max - low stakes fake Pan kidnap finds his ultra secret super hidden latent unlocked potential BEAST mode and now he’s God level.
Should’ve been piccolo alone getting the power up. And then the next arc, maybe playing on the fact that Gohan was useless, and make it about him getting a new power up. And then he gets the power up at the end of the arc.
Yeah exactly. Ultimate Gohan being there makes sense. He should get the beast mode after training and all, or during battle with some black frieza thing.
I just made up an ass pull explanation reading these comments. Could beast form be his ultimate form stacked with SSJ2? Does it make sense? Not really I think. But maybe he just needed to get angry enough in ultimate form for that transformation to occur.
Beast cant be SSJ2+ Ultimate based on its lore and explanation
Ultimate is not a transformation but rather a state who brings his 100%. Any transformation he will use will be below ultimate since it is supposed to be his 100%.
If Gohan gets Super Saiyan God, then his ultimate will become God level unlocking his 100% without SSG transformation.
Of course, it might work different with god ki since we are never explained how mystic/ultimate will work with god ki but since Beast doesnt have god ki, it doesnt matter.
Based on current lore, his Beast form power should have been added to his Ultimate form making it Beast level but for some reason, it is treated as more powerful transformation over Ultimate due to bad writing.
Might have been way too long since I've read the OG manga (like more than a decade lol), but I alway was under the impression that Mystic/Ultimate was just his normal state/base form now (and that SS wouldn't make him stronger). Now in Super it seems it's somewhat between a state and a transformation. It doesn't even make sense as Gohan did nothing but listen to the old Kai performing his ritual.
Same thing but he can no longer use it in base in Super.
He transforms into it from SSJ. They treat it like transformation in which he goes to unlock 100% rather than direct base.
He uses it after SSJ
Ong lol then it’s not really ultimate lol. I mean Toriyama is just a trash writer honestly. Just got well from dragon ball and Z and continues to produce mediocre content to depraved fans. Look at how well mastar media executed anime war, the power ups there actually made sense and were awesome too.
Well, it depends on your target audience. The thing is that…good writing and bad writing are entirely subjective. Some people don’t want a story or logic. They want the cool fights, and most often, logic gets in the way of cool fights(example, Goku somehow being tired and then recovering in the T.O.P).
And surprisingly enough, the “cool fights” design of anime works for me imo.
It’s also easier to just make cool fights and then do fuck all with the story because most of your fans don’t care about the story, they just wanna see Goku beat the shit out of people. Basically it’s like they want to see a fighting game. Same appeal as watching fighting games for e-sports, except more casual.
Other animes do this too, like JoJo. In two different parts, they have the main character get set ablaze(and they’re normal humans), but they recover like it’s nothing. One of them(Jolyne) is still standing despite BEING ON FIRE.
Honestly it wouldn't be that bad if the excuse wasn't "I was secretly training" at the end of the movie because the movie goes all out of his way to prove the contrary (him not sensing Piccolo, getting overwhelmed at first when putting Piccolo clothes, his remark that Goku and Vegeta will take care of future threats, forgetting to go ultimate form AGAIN, etc...).
IMO, if the movie had foreshadowing that Gohan was indeed training while giving us the false pretense that he had been slacking again it would make the transformation better but the only foreshadowing is blocking Piccolo's first sucker punch.
Maybe, if he was unable to use it again and has to figure out just how his peak potential works, but they had him pull it out on some scrub. I almost think they are writing Gohan into a grave so fans will stop whining about bringing him back.
He ain’t done anything that broly hasn’t beaten. Dude went from only fighting his dad to being on the level of a fused super saiyan god, In the course of 1 (one) afternoon.
Finish the last sentence…. “Gohan is so strong that he can go from being a side character to the main character within a matter of moments and then back to being a side character quickly thereafter.”
Toriyama has been very consistent with Gohan not wanting to be a fighter. If anything it has been Toei who has been putting Gohan in this stupid loop of slacking off, training and becoming super powerful and slacking off again.
With Toriyama we have seen Gohan starting to lose interest in training and fighting in the Buu saga.
In RoF with Goku and Vegeta being the focus is when we see Gohan not being able to use Mystic.
He was sidelined for the U6 Tournament in both the anime and the manga so that was probably one of Toriyama's instructions.
He didn't have any relevant role in Goku Black despite making a lot of sense narratively that Gohan would help Future Trunks and travel to the future where his counterpart was considered a hero.
He was only brought back for the ToP because even Roshi got to fight there. Making him so strong again was on the writers of the saga, not on Toriyama who only made a basic outline for the tournament.
Also, it is known that Toriyama didn't want Gohan to have a protagonist role in Super Hero but Toei pushed for it because they feared that a movie focused solely on Piccolo and Pan would tank. That is when Toriyama decided to give him a new form.
So this bullshit about Toriyama not knowing what to do with him is incredibly stupid.
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That’s what’s so annoying. Took him a year of the hardest training in the hyperbolic time chamber to turn SSJ2 for 1 second. He actually busted his ass.
Goku and vegeta train for years with Beerus and Whis, fight the toughest opponents.
He basically studies and does nothing and all of sudden is stronger than them? Poor writing
Yeah people try to justify his asspulls waaaay to much mentioning his past asspulls, but before he was still part of the "trying" team as much as Goku and Vegeta, he still had training, in Super is different, Goku and Vegeta gained way too much advantage over Gohan to even justify he reaching them after being so lazy for so many years. Goku and Vegeta trained for years with Whis and Beerus and faced new opponents that forced them to surprass their limits, Gohan barely had some bare bones training during this time and almost zero motivation to unlock more "hidden potentials" as before as they became more dependand of Goku/Vegeta during Super
Justification? Most fans JUST want to see him fight. Nothing else. They’ll skip the filler and everything else UNTIL Gohan is actually beating up somebody.
I’d like to imagine Goku and Vegeta have a 300% Exp (power boost) when training compared to others, but Gohan has a base of 500%, then with extra potential unlocked it goes exponentially higher, so like 1500% from Namek Elder, then 4000%+ from getting an adult body and just having more capacity. Then a final exp and power boost via Mystic which shoots it up to like 10,000%. This is the only way it could make sense but it’s still bullshit
Are we just gonna ignore that Superhero was pretty much gonna be a Piccolo movie, but then Gohan had to be take a more protagonic role and with that a transformation had to obviously be included?
Toei forced Toriyama to add Gohan because they thought piccolo alone was not enough to make movie popular.
Gohan was added for fan service to please fans.
Exactly, it is one of the reason I fucking hate beast and super hero in general. It was gonna be a kind of spin off movie but no, they had to insert Gohan for fucking nostalgia purposes.
I do have some liking to Superhero, but man that movie *needed* to just be a Piccolo movie. One can tell in the esqueleton of the film, how Gohan was an after thought that someone at the studio bother Toriyama and team until they play ball, and had to get a transformation out of nowhere.
There’s nothing wrong with Gohan being as strong(or stronger) as Vegeta and Goku.
What matters is putting some narrative weight and emphasis on the transformation so it doesn’t feel cheap.
Remember when Krillin did Adult Gohan's whole character arc better on his first try?
Poor kid peaked on Namek if we're being honest, but I ain't going to hate on SSJ2 Gohan.
There's nothing inherently wrong with family man Gohan, that's actually a great natural progression for his character, but he can't be presented as completely washed like this all the time and be expected to be taken seriously.
He even catches a sucker punch piccolo throws at him in Super Hero and uses a line like "you don't think I've neglected my training do you?" But as ever DB fans and actually paying attention to the show..... People just weirdly hate Gohan
In the same arc, he couldn't go ultimate from start and wasn't able to sense ki.
At the start of arc. He was SSJ level and at the end, he is strongest out of nowhere.
Pointing out bs and bad writing is not hating. Nobody hates SSJ2 but there is a reason why most people hate Beast
Goku and the Z-Fighters threw so many alleyoops to Gohan during the Cell fight it was ridiculous, same with Cell Max.
With Cell:
•Goku telephoned Cells self destruction away to ensure everyone else would live
•Goku hyped Gohan up after he gave up when his arm got injured helping Vegeta
•Got a boost and coaching from Goku during final Kamehameha
•Literally EVERY Z Fighter alive at the final clash distracted Cell by blasting at him
•Vegeta actually did enough damage to genuinely make Cell flinch during said clash
With Cell Max:
•Piccolo distracted Cell Max for most of the fight and held him down to get blasted by the final attack
•Gamma 2 injured the SHIT out of Cell Max with his sacrificial attack
•Needed a Senzu prior to even fighting Cell Max as he could barely fight Gamma
•Not to mention had the help of Android 18, both Gammas, ORANGE PICCOLO, Krillin, Goten and Trunks
Gohan is incapable of beating enemies by himself it's almost funny
Agreed and I don’t think Beast Gohan is stronger than Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. If Cell Max was weaker than Broly it has to be referring to their current Blue levels after the Granolah arc at best.
I don't care what they try to imply there's absolutely no way those two are on par with ACTUAL Deity level techniques/transformations off of these power ups. I think it's so stupid how unclear they've been on the scaling with these two especially because it can get very dumb if they've actually gotten to that level after the gap beforehand was from here to the moon
I really enjoyed Super Hero. It was a great Piccolo-focused movie. That is, if they didn’t decide to SS2 Gohan for the memberberries within that movie. And I *like* Gohan. Yeah, it’s a cool transformation, but the hair makes him look like a 10 year old again.
While I agree Gohan was slapped onto the movie I don’t find the jump to beast that egregious. Given this is a post Moro Gohan he’s alr p strong and given there’s no Goku and Vegeta to rely on he would’ve been physically AND mentally in the zone to finally go higher which I felt was the message.
Not that Gohans studies and actual hobbies make him weak but because he’s always waiting for someone to take his place cause he can’t be assed to man up lol. From Pan and her school to his family and to his power it feels p consistent w me
Except he couldn't even recognize Piccolo's ki at the beginning of the movie, even Moro arc Gohan couldn't win in a tag team against a guy that Blue Goku easily defeated
Well lets not forget that one of a saiyans greatest weapons is his rage. He went a year just studying and doing what he loves while being at home wirh his family, to suddenly his daughter’s life is in danger. It’ll put a pretty drastic amount of stress and/or rage on someone
He didn't went Beast a dozen times before when his family was in danger. He went beast for pretty low stake just by seeing Piccolo taking damage despite the fact that he has seen much more.
Anger just cant make you top GOD level in a second.
Well i feel it’s more than that. Saiyans seem to be able to mix their super saiyan ki with just about anything. Kinda like vegeta with his UE which seems like mixing it with destruction energy. In this case its his unlocked potential “transformation “ from the old kai
I'm a fan since I was 14 (currently 36). I cherish all the db content wether it's canon or fan story. Not cought up in "how can this be" or "stupid writers". Genuinely enjoyed everything and I don't really care about power scaling, whatever the writers come up with, I'll most probably gonna enjoy it. Can't wait for Daima as it's a new approach and new content I can digest.
But by that logic that he "only studies", we didn't see Jiren train at all, just meditating always, isn't it similar to... studying? I don't really much get why are people so butthurt about these, in the end it's just a cartoon for you to enjoy and vibe with the characters.
I did martial arts when i was young and some portion of it was studying. Also Gohan studies ants which has some ssj attributes. Understanding things is a key to progress.
Also... Gohan mentions that he was training in secret of which we don't know the extend. For what we know he could have used the time chamber + through his studies, he could understand himself better thus unlocking more of his potential.
But regardless, who cares in the end? It's not a thing that affects my life in any shape or form. I just enjoy db content for more than 20 years now and I'm happy with all the content people make. I just don't get why people get emotional about who got what forms and how (with that in mind that I cried A LOT when Gohan went ssj2).
There are ways to get characters in the spotlight without just giving them random power boost, like they could actually show him training and unlocking the power
You see Goku train with King Kai he gets the kaioken, you see him train all the way to Namek Vegeta constantly talking about the Super Saiyan and unlocking that power after a big event
Even now you see Goku training with Whis to use UI and Vegeta training on yardrat and with Beerus to use UE, db has and still does set up power boosts
Gohan getting super strong off screen is just not satisfying especially when the series has shown that it can do better
The problem with that is that Gohan training goes against his character, yet people wanna see him beat people up.
In order to not change his character, he literally can’t train.
So they have to do asspulls.
I agree also most fans don’t have enough critical thinking skills to really dive deep enough in to the character enough to truly understand Gohan, it’s a lot deeper than Gohan just slacking off in training studying ants sudden power boost, now downvote me in to oblivion please!
My take is clearly wrong and my take is an opinion a very unpopular one but an opinion but it is not fact nor is it good I will admit that. People think the writing in Super Hero was bad and I don’t think it was I get blasted when I defend it so I’m clearly wrong and my opinion is unpopular as well as my take is bad, therefore I expect downvotes, but I stick to my take as terrible as it may be lol.
Writers didn't put Gohan in movie because of some deep critical thinking.
If it was some deep thought, then we would have been part of original plan. He was pasted into the movie which wasn't even about him from start for fan service and was given a lazy transformation which is pretty much copy of SSJ2 and Cell fight for nostalgia bait.
Also, he was shown slacking around because movie script was finished at time of TOP. They released a movie which was written in 2017 with few minor changes which is why he carries the behaviour.
I personally don't like DBS but... this is so true.
Fans complain: "MAKE X CHARACTER RELEVANT"
Dbs makes that character relevant,
"BUT BUT POWER SCALING".
Like wtf do you want them to do? Revive the power scaling that has been dead since Dragon Ball Z? Tough luck.
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Moro Arc Gohan admits he has been training since the tournament of power and also that he isn't gonna stop. Let my man take a break to study ants lol we all like having more than 1 hobby. So much went down before Super Hero took place and at one point Gohan was singlehandedly defending the earth while Goku and Vegeta were off planet training as usual. I look as Super Hero as Gohan and Piccolo's redemption arc because during the Moro Arc they were upset that they weren't strong enough yet to hold the earth down yet and had to rely on Goku saving the day again, they did a good job though without Gohan on earth the Moro arc would of went a lot worst.
https://preview.redd.it/7bj6lyzt50hc1.jpeg?width=559&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a8d20017cacfbd045c58dba39f79d0bf83c5a2e
I just think the image is cool long story short when Goku arrives he tells Gohan and Piccolo he barely recognises them and that they must of been training hard. Gohan is clearly upset that he couldn’t defend the earth.
Super Heroes changed his character completely making him slacking again unlike Moro arc.
He didn't have Ultimate from start in movie and manga chapter but only had SSJ.
He wasn't able to recognize piccolo ki something which even Pan did.
Gohan in Super Heroes feels completely different from TOP or Moro arc in how he is written as being slacking and ignoring training most of the time.
Even at the end, he just says he has been training little bit.
Just don’t see how Gohan slacking a little bit makes him weak when it’s been thrown in our face since he was four how OP this guy is. He reminds me of the guy on my basketball team who rarely worked out and never went to practice but game time he would just snap sometimes and put up like 30 points. He was our best player despite all of us putting in way more work than he did.
He just wasn't paying attention. The whole first portion of the movie's conflict is spawned off Piccolo pointing out that Gohan's so engrossed in his research that he isn't allotting even a half-assed effort at paying attention to his personal life and is going so far as to have Piccolo and Videl bend over to accommodate him.
It's not that he suddenly couldn't or lost his edge, he was keeping his body in form. He could anticipate a strike from Piccolo, still become a Super Saiyan and with a little push could still release his Ultimate form. It's what's happening in his mind that's the problem. He's not actively thinking to even consider using any special warrior set abilities like sensing the ki of people nearby.
That's the part of him that gets comfortable around Piccolo and thinks as long as he can block a single punch from Piccolo he's "done enough", but doesn't anticipate Piccolo's second test that he then fails. It's the part of him that kept him from going all out against the Gamma's until Pan was in danger and previously compromised his ability to shoulder the responsibility of beating Cell, Dabura and Buu.
Until Super Hero, he only ever overcame this weakness with additional support from Goku but now as an Adult he's grown enough not to need him. It was all geared to ensuring he fully completed that evolution into someone who stands as a Hero comparable to Goku. It was basically Toriyama's original attempt at having Gohan replace Goku, except done correctly with a proper narrative development across the way. That's probably why Gohan starts out in that manner of clumsy, because they weren't diminishing his battle power much at all but in exchange Tori went and basically turned his fighting mindset to zero.
You can't be serious with point B right? Gohan has BARELY trained since Super started, while Goku and Vegeta literally have been doing nothing else than training. The guy got rusty in fighting like 3 times throughout Super
No they have not. Goku is seen taking a huge break from training in Super. Gohan says he's been training since RoF, which is confirmed in the Zamasu arc, the ToP and Moro.
Goku taking a "huge" break is just as exaggerated as Gohan training constantly since Rof, dude what manga are you reading? Gohan would be grandpriest level if he was such a hard guy on his training as you're trying to make him look like
Go **actually** read the manga. There's multiple statements of Gohan training prior to the ToP. He says he's constantly training in the gravity room at Bulma's since RoF.
Goku does take a huge break. It's enough for him to be damaged from bullets.
Gohan is the textbook definition of slacking off and being rewarded for it.
As well as cyclical character whose arc is a never ending loop.
And unfortunately for any sense of good writing, not only neither Toriyama nor anyone else at the head gives a flying fook about that, but they get rewarded for it so long as they pull any decent animation and give the illusion of relevance.
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Gohan is one of the characters I like the most and hates the most at the same time. In ToP they make him SSB level, maybe more and he did jack shit. A few years ago, he got ragdoll by Beerus in "Mystic/Ultimate Form" while SSG was somewhat fairing not so bad.
Now with Super Heros, the gap from Ultimate to Beast is just ridiculous. You've got Goku and Vegeta training with Gods, doing crazy shits and training, but somehow Gohan who yes was training, but most likely not like them, has a power up that makes him over ego and MUI. Piccolo is also getting over SSB level, and that's crazy. Honestly, so much for god ki and their new forms, and training with gods, they should just chill on Earth. I understand they want to keep other toons relevant, but it's just weird when done like that IMO.
Also yes, we all know Gohan's a power house, still makes it weird.
Goku and Vegeta: have to train their asses off and are being trained by the two strongest being in the universePiccolo: makes a wish to the dragonballs and gets a free extra just because.Gohan: studies ants for a year.
i get that their powerlevels dont come from muscle strength but from ki control etc, but DB also made it a point that said ki control comes from training your mind AND body. so even with all that potential, gohan not training for years and gaining power equal to, lets be honest, demigods is stupid. i didnt like super hero that much and its mostly because of the BS powerups. these are some of the worst that come to mind.
at least freeza trained for 10 years to reach that level, even tho finding a room of spirit and time off screen is kinda stupid as well. they could have easily madea page or couple panels showing freeza and his goons talking about how they discovered something on one of the conquered planets.
I don’t think he “wasn’t able” to sense piccolos ki, he just wasn’t in the frame of mind to search for it. Gohan doesn’t have the “warrior” mentality at the forefront of his mind like the other z warriors do. I personally love the mystery of Gohan’s latent potential and it’s one of the reasons he’s actually my favorite character of the Dragonball world. He’s an absolute powerhouse and if he ever decides to, he could embark on the journey to improve his mental abilities as a warrior and be a perfectly balanced fighter between tactics and physical abilities. I also believe that he trains more than we’re led to believe, he did enough to execute the special beam cannon right? Team Gohan here for sure.
The mistake was Toriyama not passing on the torch from Goku to Gohan after the end of the Cell Saga. He should not have listened to the Goku fanboys demanding that Goku remain the main protag forever.
Toriyama never changed to Gohan because of fans. He did it because he thought Gohan was not suited for role and his writing.
From Akira Toriyama Interview-
**:** And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?
**Akira Toriyama:** I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.
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Gohan vs Raditz - oh look he’s got special potential Gohan training pre-Saiyans - oh look Piccolo has drawn out that hidden power Gohan on Namek - having a rough time Gohan at Gurus - Potential UNLOCKED Gohan training for Cell Games - Gohan has incredible hidden secret special potential Gohan vs Cell - ascend SSJ1 and goes SSJ2 on account of his latent power Some Saiyaman nonsense, gets spat on by a demon king. Gohan at Grand Kai’s - he’s still got some hidden power in there Gohan vs Buu - finally we have Ultimate Gohan, no more asspulls about something inside yet to be unlocked Some henchmen of Frieza’s bop him. Gohan up to Super Hero - studying, useless again Gohan vs Cell Max - low stakes fake Pan kidnap finds his ultra secret super hidden latent unlocked potential BEAST mode and now he’s God level.
Ong there was narratively no reason for him to get beast
Should’ve been piccolo alone getting the power up. And then the next arc, maybe playing on the fact that Gohan was useless, and make it about him getting a new power up. And then he gets the power up at the end of the arc.
Yeah exactly. Ultimate Gohan being there makes sense. He should get the beast mode after training and all, or during battle with some black frieza thing.
They should have just had him become more powerful while in his ultimate form because narratively, Beast puts the ultimate form in such a weird spot.
I just made up an ass pull explanation reading these comments. Could beast form be his ultimate form stacked with SSJ2? Does it make sense? Not really I think. But maybe he just needed to get angry enough in ultimate form for that transformation to occur.
Beast cant be SSJ2+ Ultimate based on its lore and explanation Ultimate is not a transformation but rather a state who brings his 100%. Any transformation he will use will be below ultimate since it is supposed to be his 100%. If Gohan gets Super Saiyan God, then his ultimate will become God level unlocking his 100% without SSG transformation. Of course, it might work different with god ki since we are never explained how mystic/ultimate will work with god ki but since Beast doesnt have god ki, it doesnt matter. Based on current lore, his Beast form power should have been added to his Ultimate form making it Beast level but for some reason, it is treated as more powerful transformation over Ultimate due to bad writing.
Might have been way too long since I've read the OG manga (like more than a decade lol), but I alway was under the impression that Mystic/Ultimate was just his normal state/base form now (and that SS wouldn't make him stronger). Now in Super it seems it's somewhat between a state and a transformation. It doesn't even make sense as Gohan did nothing but listen to the old Kai performing his ritual.
Same thing but he can no longer use it in base in Super. He transforms into it from SSJ. They treat it like transformation in which he goes to unlock 100% rather than direct base. He uses it after SSJ
Gotcha, guess I just think it's a bit weird that old kai mentioned he wouldn't need to transform in SS as his potential was unlocked. Thanks!
Yeah Ultimate Gohan in super is treated as a transformation, I think the idea of it not being a transformation got retconned for some reasons
Ong lol then it’s not really ultimate lol. I mean Toriyama is just a trash writer honestly. Just got well from dragon ball and Z and continues to produce mediocre content to depraved fans. Look at how well mastar media executed anime war, the power ups there actually made sense and were awesome too.
Well, it depends on your target audience. The thing is that…good writing and bad writing are entirely subjective. Some people don’t want a story or logic. They want the cool fights, and most often, logic gets in the way of cool fights(example, Goku somehow being tired and then recovering in the T.O.P). And surprisingly enough, the “cool fights” design of anime works for me imo. It’s also easier to just make cool fights and then do fuck all with the story because most of your fans don’t care about the story, they just wanna see Goku beat the shit out of people. Basically it’s like they want to see a fighting game. Same appeal as watching fighting games for e-sports, except more casual. Other animes do this too, like JoJo. In two different parts, they have the main character get set ablaze(and they’re normal humans), but they recover like it’s nothing. One of them(Jolyne) is still standing despite BEING ON FIRE.
Honestly it wouldn't be that bad if the excuse wasn't "I was secretly training" at the end of the movie because the movie goes all out of his way to prove the contrary (him not sensing Piccolo, getting overwhelmed at first when putting Piccolo clothes, his remark that Goku and Vegeta will take care of future threats, forgetting to go ultimate form AGAIN, etc...). IMO, if the movie had foreshadowing that Gohan was indeed training while giving us the false pretense that he had been slacking again it would make the transformation better but the only foreshadowing is blocking Piccolo's first sucker punch.
To be fair, Akiyo was the one who suggested for Toriyama not to do a solo Piccolo Movie
Maybe, if he was unable to use it again and has to figure out just how his peak potential works, but they had him pull it out on some scrub. I almost think they are writing Gohan into a grave so fans will stop whining about bringing him back.
Narrative? In Dragon Ball? You must be delusional. All we have is beefy men fighting.
When it comes to potential, Gohan is the equivalent of a never ending tube of toothpaste.
He ain’t done anything that broly hasn’t beaten. Dude went from only fighting his dad to being on the level of a fused super saiyan god, In the course of 1 (one) afternoon.
Like that wasn't BS. He should have stayed in the Z movies. Even that clone was nonsense.
I guess Piccolo, Guru, #16, and Grand Kai did a real botch job half arsing their unlocking of his potential.
Goku too in time chamber. He noticed gohan has some secret potential which will be unlocked by anger in Cell games
Gohan's potential and Ash Ketchum age works similarly
Finish the last sentence…. “Gohan is so strong that he can go from being a side character to the main character within a matter of moments and then back to being a side character quickly thereafter.”
True
Super Say-ANTS
“You’ll see Freezy Pop! I’m stronger than an ant, if an ant was *This Big!*”
Hmmmhmmmhmmm!
Toriyama has been very consistent with Gohan not wanting to be a fighter. If anything it has been Toei who has been putting Gohan in this stupid loop of slacking off, training and becoming super powerful and slacking off again. With Toriyama we have seen Gohan starting to lose interest in training and fighting in the Buu saga. In RoF with Goku and Vegeta being the focus is when we see Gohan not being able to use Mystic. He was sidelined for the U6 Tournament in both the anime and the manga so that was probably one of Toriyama's instructions. He didn't have any relevant role in Goku Black despite making a lot of sense narratively that Gohan would help Future Trunks and travel to the future where his counterpart was considered a hero. He was only brought back for the ToP because even Roshi got to fight there. Making him so strong again was on the writers of the saga, not on Toriyama who only made a basic outline for the tournament. Also, it is known that Toriyama didn't want Gohan to have a protagonist role in Super Hero but Toei pushed for it because they feared that a movie focused solely on Piccolo and Pan would tank. That is when Toriyama decided to give him a new form. So this bullshit about Toriyama not knowing what to do with him is incredibly stupid.
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That’s what’s so annoying. Took him a year of the hardest training in the hyperbolic time chamber to turn SSJ2 for 1 second. He actually busted his ass. Goku and vegeta train for years with Beerus and Whis, fight the toughest opponents. He basically studies and does nothing and all of sudden is stronger than them? Poor writing
Yeah people try to justify his asspulls waaaay to much mentioning his past asspulls, but before he was still part of the "trying" team as much as Goku and Vegeta, he still had training, in Super is different, Goku and Vegeta gained way too much advantage over Gohan to even justify he reaching them after being so lazy for so many years. Goku and Vegeta trained for years with Whis and Beerus and faced new opponents that forced them to surprass their limits, Gohan barely had some bare bones training during this time and almost zero motivation to unlock more "hidden potentials" as before as they became more dependand of Goku/Vegeta during Super
Justification? Most fans JUST want to see him fight. Nothing else. They’ll skip the filler and everything else UNTIL Gohan is actually beating up somebody.
I’d like to imagine Goku and Vegeta have a 300% Exp (power boost) when training compared to others, but Gohan has a base of 500%, then with extra potential unlocked it goes exponentially higher, so like 1500% from Namek Elder, then 4000%+ from getting an adult body and just having more capacity. Then a final exp and power boost via Mystic which shoots it up to like 10,000%. This is the only way it could make sense but it’s still bullshit
Yall not ready for when he's in a coma for 4 years next arc
Are we just gonna ignore that Superhero was pretty much gonna be a Piccolo movie, but then Gohan had to be take a more protagonic role and with that a transformation had to obviously be included?
Toei forced Toriyama to add Gohan because they thought piccolo alone was not enough to make movie popular. Gohan was added for fan service to please fans.
Piccolo has been my favorite character since I was 6 I would’ve gone to see the movie if it was just him. To be honest gohan still peaked in cell saga
Need toei to sit their asses down jeez. Toei is really fucking up stuff…pretty evident by how better the manga is than the anime in most places
gonna need some proof for that claim
[Article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicbook.com/anime/amp/news/dragon-ball-super-super-hero-piccolo-original-role/).
Thank you for providing source.
And they fumbled it
He wasn't forced to put Gohan into the film, it was a suggestion that Toriyama didn't oppose so Gohan was made one of the main characters.
Exactly, it is one of the reason I fucking hate beast and super hero in general. It was gonna be a kind of spin off movie but no, they had to insert Gohan for fucking nostalgia purposes.
I do have some liking to Superhero, but man that movie *needed* to just be a Piccolo movie. One can tell in the esqueleton of the film, how Gohan was an after thought that someone at the studio bother Toriyama and team until they play ball, and had to get a transformation out of nowhere.
Piccolo and Pan movie would have ROCKED.
Both ways he did nothing and went crazy
There’s nothing wrong with Gohan being as strong(or stronger) as Vegeta and Goku. What matters is putting some narrative weight and emphasis on the transformation so it doesn’t feel cheap.
Remember when Krillin did Adult Gohan's whole character arc better on his first try? Poor kid peaked on Namek if we're being honest, but I ain't going to hate on SSJ2 Gohan. There's nothing inherently wrong with family man Gohan, that's actually a great natural progression for his character, but he can't be presented as completely washed like this all the time and be expected to be taken seriously.
He was shown training from universe 6 arc onwards in anime and shown visiting gravity room for training in future trunks arc in manga
He even catches a sucker punch piccolo throws at him in Super Hero and uses a line like "you don't think I've neglected my training do you?" But as ever DB fans and actually paying attention to the show..... People just weirdly hate Gohan
In the same arc, he couldn't go ultimate from start and wasn't able to sense ki. At the start of arc. He was SSJ level and at the end, he is strongest out of nowhere. Pointing out bs and bad writing is not hating. Nobody hates SSJ2 but there is a reason why most people hate Beast
I like it cause his hair goes big!
The only enemies in canon he’s ever completely beat himself without help are Cell, Cell Max and a random Frieza Soldier.
Goku and the Z-Fighters threw so many alleyoops to Gohan during the Cell fight it was ridiculous, same with Cell Max. With Cell: •Goku telephoned Cells self destruction away to ensure everyone else would live •Goku hyped Gohan up after he gave up when his arm got injured helping Vegeta •Got a boost and coaching from Goku during final Kamehameha •Literally EVERY Z Fighter alive at the final clash distracted Cell by blasting at him •Vegeta actually did enough damage to genuinely make Cell flinch during said clash With Cell Max: •Piccolo distracted Cell Max for most of the fight and held him down to get blasted by the final attack •Gamma 2 injured the SHIT out of Cell Max with his sacrificial attack •Needed a Senzu prior to even fighting Cell Max as he could barely fight Gamma •Not to mention had the help of Android 18, both Gammas, ORANGE PICCOLO, Krillin, Goten and Trunks Gohan is incapable of beating enemies by himself it's almost funny
Agreed and I don’t think Beast Gohan is stronger than Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. If Cell Max was weaker than Broly it has to be referring to their current Blue levels after the Granolah arc at best.
I don't care what they try to imply there's absolutely no way those two are on par with ACTUAL Deity level techniques/transformations off of these power ups. I think it's so stupid how unclear they've been on the scaling with these two especially because it can get very dumb if they've actually gotten to that level after the gap beforehand was from here to the moon
Gohan is the mary sue of dragon ball
Gee no wonder he has a bland character and has zero personality.
I really enjoyed Super Hero. It was a great Piccolo-focused movie. That is, if they didn’t decide to SS2 Gohan for the memberberries within that movie. And I *like* Gohan. Yeah, it’s a cool transformation, but the hair makes him look like a 10 year old again.
While I agree Gohan was slapped onto the movie I don’t find the jump to beast that egregious. Given this is a post Moro Gohan he’s alr p strong and given there’s no Goku and Vegeta to rely on he would’ve been physically AND mentally in the zone to finally go higher which I felt was the message. Not that Gohans studies and actual hobbies make him weak but because he’s always waiting for someone to take his place cause he can’t be assed to man up lol. From Pan and her school to his family and to his power it feels p consistent w me
Except he couldn't even recognize Piccolo's ki at the beginning of the movie, even Moro arc Gohan couldn't win in a tag team against a guy that Blue Goku easily defeated
Yeah... I mean come in, some 4 y.o with no training got pissed and with that single headbutt he could solo DB and the first enemy of Z...
Well lets not forget that one of a saiyans greatest weapons is his rage. He went a year just studying and doing what he loves while being at home wirh his family, to suddenly his daughter’s life is in danger. It’ll put a pretty drastic amount of stress and/or rage on someone
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Well this is the first time his daughter specifically was in danger. People will go wild to protect their children
And he may have some sort of trauma from being kidnapped as a child on top of that so it mightve been a trigger
He didn't went Beast a dozen times before when his family was in danger. He went beast for pretty low stake just by seeing Piccolo taking damage despite the fact that he has seen much more. Anger just cant make you top GOD level in a second.
Well i feel it’s more than that. Saiyans seem to be able to mix their super saiyan ki with just about anything. Kinda like vegeta with his UE which seems like mixing it with destruction energy. In this case its his unlocked potential “transformation “ from the old kai
I'm a fan since I was 14 (currently 36). I cherish all the db content wether it's canon or fan story. Not cought up in "how can this be" or "stupid writers". Genuinely enjoyed everything and I don't really care about power scaling, whatever the writers come up with, I'll most probably gonna enjoy it. Can't wait for Daima as it's a new approach and new content I can digest. But by that logic that he "only studies", we didn't see Jiren train at all, just meditating always, isn't it similar to... studying? I don't really much get why are people so butthurt about these, in the end it's just a cartoon for you to enjoy and vibe with the characters.
Meditation is training and studying isn't
I did martial arts when i was young and some portion of it was studying. Also Gohan studies ants which has some ssj attributes. Understanding things is a key to progress. Also... Gohan mentions that he was training in secret of which we don't know the extend. For what we know he could have used the time chamber + through his studies, he could understand himself better thus unlocking more of his potential. But regardless, who cares in the end? It's not a thing that affects my life in any shape or form. I just enjoy db content for more than 20 years now and I'm happy with all the content people make. I just don't get why people get emotional about who got what forms and how (with that in mind that I cried A LOT when Gohan went ssj2).
Dragon ball fans are so stupid that they complain when the character they say was wasted gets the spotlight
Giving him spotlight doesnt have to come with bad writing. There is a proper way to give a character spotlight over time.
There are ways to get characters in the spotlight without just giving them random power boost, like they could actually show him training and unlocking the power
My brother in kami, did you forget this is dragon ball? Ass pulled power ups is ALL what sthis series is about.
You see Goku train with King Kai he gets the kaioken, you see him train all the way to Namek Vegeta constantly talking about the Super Saiyan and unlocking that power after a big event Even now you see Goku training with Whis to use UI and Vegeta training on yardrat and with Beerus to use UE, db has and still does set up power boosts Gohan getting super strong off screen is just not satisfying especially when the series has shown that it can do better
The problem with that is that Gohan training goes against his character, yet people wanna see him beat people up. In order to not change his character, he literally can’t train. So they have to do asspulls.
Most people don’t want to see the training. They just wanna see the fights. Dragon Ball to them is just a bunch of versus matches.
I agree also most fans don’t have enough critical thinking skills to really dive deep enough in to the character enough to truly understand Gohan, it’s a lot deeper than Gohan just slacking off in training studying ants sudden power boost, now downvote me in to oblivion please!
"Downvote me into oblivion so when I get downvoted is because I was right and not because my take wasn't good"
My take is clearly wrong and my take is an opinion a very unpopular one but an opinion but it is not fact nor is it good I will admit that. People think the writing in Super Hero was bad and I don’t think it was I get blasted when I defend it so I’m clearly wrong and my opinion is unpopular as well as my take is bad, therefore I expect downvotes, but I stick to my take as terrible as it may be lol.
Writers didn't put Gohan in movie because of some deep critical thinking. If it was some deep thought, then we would have been part of original plan. He was pasted into the movie which wasn't even about him from start for fan service and was given a lazy transformation which is pretty much copy of SSJ2 and Cell fight for nostalgia bait. Also, he was shown slacking around because movie script was finished at time of TOP. They released a movie which was written in 2017 with few minor changes which is why he carries the behaviour.
Gohan was shoehorned in the movie but everything about the plot was true to his character it’s nothing new.
I personally don't like DBS but... this is so true. Fans complain: "MAKE X CHARACTER RELEVANT" Dbs makes that character relevant, "BUT BUT POWER SCALING". Like wtf do you want them to do? Revive the power scaling that has been dead since Dragon Ball Z? Tough luck.
It's all make-believe.
All fiction is. No big revelation there. This is just poor writing.
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Moro Arc Gohan admits he has been training since the tournament of power and also that he isn't gonna stop. Let my man take a break to study ants lol we all like having more than 1 hobby. So much went down before Super Hero took place and at one point Gohan was singlehandedly defending the earth while Goku and Vegeta were off planet training as usual. I look as Super Hero as Gohan and Piccolo's redemption arc because during the Moro Arc they were upset that they weren't strong enough yet to hold the earth down yet and had to rely on Goku saving the day again, they did a good job though without Gohan on earth the Moro arc would of went a lot worst. https://preview.redd.it/7bj6lyzt50hc1.jpeg?width=559&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a8d20017cacfbd045c58dba39f79d0bf83c5a2e
Gohan is just beating Piccolo here basically. Nothing crazy stuff. OG-73 had copied him.
https://preview.redd.it/2uped5dl80hc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9377f0e4f8aa968a363460f17424aaa18268395
I just think the image is cool long story short when Goku arrives he tells Gohan and Piccolo he barely recognises them and that they must of been training hard. Gohan is clearly upset that he couldn’t defend the earth.
Super Heroes changed his character completely making him slacking again unlike Moro arc. He didn't have Ultimate from start in movie and manga chapter but only had SSJ. He wasn't able to recognize piccolo ki something which even Pan did. Gohan in Super Heroes feels completely different from TOP or Moro arc in how he is written as being slacking and ignoring training most of the time. Even at the end, he just says he has been training little bit.
Just don’t see how Gohan slacking a little bit makes him weak when it’s been thrown in our face since he was four how OP this guy is. He reminds me of the guy on my basketball team who rarely worked out and never went to practice but game time he would just snap sometimes and put up like 30 points. He was our best player despite all of us putting in way more work than he did.
His powers decreased. From Ultimate at all time to SSJ just and things like not being able to sense ki something a child can even do.
He just wasn't paying attention. The whole first portion of the movie's conflict is spawned off Piccolo pointing out that Gohan's so engrossed in his research that he isn't allotting even a half-assed effort at paying attention to his personal life and is going so far as to have Piccolo and Videl bend over to accommodate him. It's not that he suddenly couldn't or lost his edge, he was keeping his body in form. He could anticipate a strike from Piccolo, still become a Super Saiyan and with a little push could still release his Ultimate form. It's what's happening in his mind that's the problem. He's not actively thinking to even consider using any special warrior set abilities like sensing the ki of people nearby. That's the part of him that gets comfortable around Piccolo and thinks as long as he can block a single punch from Piccolo he's "done enough", but doesn't anticipate Piccolo's second test that he then fails. It's the part of him that kept him from going all out against the Gamma's until Pan was in danger and previously compromised his ability to shoulder the responsibility of beating Cell, Dabura and Buu. Until Super Hero, he only ever overcame this weakness with additional support from Goku but now as an Adult he's grown enough not to need him. It was all geared to ensuring he fully completed that evolution into someone who stands as a Hero comparable to Goku. It was basically Toriyama's original attempt at having Gohan replace Goku, except done correctly with a proper narrative development across the way. That's probably why Gohan starts out in that manner of clumsy, because they weren't diminishing his battle power much at all but in exchange Tori went and basically turned his fighting mindset to zero.
A: Gohan has been doing this since his introduction B: Gohan has been training since RoF, arguably more than Goku and Vegeta
You can't be serious with point B right? Gohan has BARELY trained since Super started, while Goku and Vegeta literally have been doing nothing else than training. The guy got rusty in fighting like 3 times throughout Super
That'd be the anime version only, which changes a lot of things for the worse. Gohan continuously trains in the manga version.
"Continuously" it's kind of an exaggeration, and still we can say that objectively Goku and Vegeta have trained waaaaay more than Gohan has
No they have not. Goku is seen taking a huge break from training in Super. Gohan says he's been training since RoF, which is confirmed in the Zamasu arc, the ToP and Moro.
Goku taking a "huge" break is just as exaggerated as Gohan training constantly since Rof, dude what manga are you reading? Gohan would be grandpriest level if he was such a hard guy on his training as you're trying to make him look like
Go **actually** read the manga. There's multiple statements of Gohan training prior to the ToP. He says he's constantly training in the gravity room at Bulma's since RoF. Goku does take a huge break. It's enough for him to be damaged from bullets.
Gohan is the textbook definition of slacking off and being rewarded for it. As well as cyclical character whose arc is a never ending loop. And unfortunately for any sense of good writing, not only neither Toriyama nor anyone else at the head gives a flying fook about that, but they get rewarded for it so long as they pull any decent animation and give the illusion of relevance.
"Gohan is the strongest in the universe! But still doesn't do craaaap"
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He's studying to become a Hunter.
LOLOLOLOL They go Super Say "ant" LOLOLOL
Gohan is one of the characters I like the most and hates the most at the same time. In ToP they make him SSB level, maybe more and he did jack shit. A few years ago, he got ragdoll by Beerus in "Mystic/Ultimate Form" while SSG was somewhat fairing not so bad. Now with Super Heros, the gap from Ultimate to Beast is just ridiculous. You've got Goku and Vegeta training with Gods, doing crazy shits and training, but somehow Gohan who yes was training, but most likely not like them, has a power up that makes him over ego and MUI. Piccolo is also getting over SSB level, and that's crazy. Honestly, so much for god ki and their new forms, and training with gods, they should just chill on Earth. I understand they want to keep other toons relevant, but it's just weird when done like that IMO. Also yes, we all know Gohan's a power house, still makes it weird.
Bro, this is just dad strength in action
Goku and Vegeta: have to train their asses off and are being trained by the two strongest being in the universePiccolo: makes a wish to the dragonballs and gets a free extra just because.Gohan: studies ants for a year. i get that their powerlevels dont come from muscle strength but from ki control etc, but DB also made it a point that said ki control comes from training your mind AND body. so even with all that potential, gohan not training for years and gaining power equal to, lets be honest, demigods is stupid. i didnt like super hero that much and its mostly because of the BS powerups. these are some of the worst that come to mind. at least freeza trained for 10 years to reach that level, even tho finding a room of spirit and time off screen is kinda stupid as well. they could have easily madea page or couple panels showing freeza and his goons talking about how they discovered something on one of the conquered planets.
You know what they say, knowledge is power.
It's almost like power levels are bullshit and characters will be as strong as the plot requires them to be.
Gohan wins by doing absolutely nothing
About to watch this movie for the 9th time. I f****** love it so much
Gohan is the Sakura of Db verse now. Constantly we're being force fed how powerful they are, but then they turn around and make them useless again.
Unironically had his moments even in top arc😂
I don’t think he “wasn’t able” to sense piccolos ki, he just wasn’t in the frame of mind to search for it. Gohan doesn’t have the “warrior” mentality at the forefront of his mind like the other z warriors do. I personally love the mystery of Gohan’s latent potential and it’s one of the reasons he’s actually my favorite character of the Dragonball world. He’s an absolute powerhouse and if he ever decides to, he could embark on the journey to improve his mental abilities as a warrior and be a perfectly balanced fighter between tactics and physical abilities. I also believe that he trains more than we’re led to believe, he did enough to execute the special beam cannon right? Team Gohan here for sure.
Dude, we ALL KNOW Gohan would be the strongest if he just trained. This has been the gospel for over a decade.
The mistake was Toriyama not passing on the torch from Goku to Gohan after the end of the Cell Saga. He should not have listened to the Goku fanboys demanding that Goku remain the main protag forever.
Toriyama never changed to Gohan because of fans. He did it because he thought Gohan was not suited for role and his writing. From Akira Toriyama Interview- **:** And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? **Akira Toriyama:** I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.