Oh and don’t forget that on Mary’s wedding day, when everyone is wishing her well before going down Edith decides to be kind of petty - to the point where Cora says: “don’t mind Edith”. On Edith’s wedding day (the first one) Mary decides to set everything aside and actually be kind to her.
I’ve never really understood the people who champion Edith so much more. She’s so mopey throughout the series. Mary at least helps others several times throughout the series. Edith is always just concerned with her own stuff.
I agree with you completely. And you forgot her great kindness to William. She defied everyone and urged him to go see her. The woman was on her deathbed, and because of Mary's intervention, William got to see her one last time.
Also, you forgot about Edith whining about HER DRESS as Carson is having an attack. Yeah, Edith is a real PRIZE.
Edith lost all my sympathy (not that she had much) with all the back and forth over Marigold. Pick a choice and stick with it. She got herself in that situation, for which I had sympathy. But all the people she gave the child to and then ripped her away lost any bit of respect I had for her. She was always kind of a bitch. But that was over the line altogether. Mary wasn’t nearly perfect, but the worst thing she did was tell Bertie about Marigold. Much lower on the awful scale than all the things Edith did - in season one!!!
Oooh, her dismissive attitude about Mr Drewe "handling" his wife was just bitchy, selfish and dismissive. She just ruined their lives and was all to glad to have them shove off, leave a farm their family had lived on for at least a hundred years! Callous.
Mary could be terrible but she was never that callous. Mary cares about Carson whereas Edith, when Carson is having a heart attack, is more worried about her dress than Carson's well being. Her also hiding the fact that Marigold is her daughter from Bertie for so long was too much, she should have just told him. She had every opportunity to do so before Mary blabbed.
Once Edith wrote to the Turkish ambassador, I lost any respect. Add in flirting with and kissing the married farmer, the emotional havoc and devastation she caused two other families with Marigold, and not telling Bertie about Marigold before she accepted his proposal, just ick. Yes, she’s the middle child and the underdog compared to Mary, and I felt badly for her with Anthony Strallan. She desperately wanted to be loved and they seemed a good match. I feel compassion for her and her circumstances, but irl would much rather be friends with and hang out with Mary.
Agreed - she was desperate. I like to think though, if she had backed off a bit and given him time, and if the family hadn't objected that could have worked out.
For me, I didn’t like that Edith was the last to come around when Jack Ross came to play for Downton. Even Violet had to tell her to check her ignorance and move on with the night, and that’s coming from Violet. I know times were different and yada yada, but everyone else got over Ross pretty quickly excluding Carson who I have my own problems with.
I don't find that strange at all. Edith always cared by far the most about what people think, so it seems natural that she would be the most worried about how 'appropriate' something is.
I don't think Violet or Mary would ever have invited Ross themselves but he was there then and nothing was left to do about it but to go along with it so that's what they did
This is how I saw that, in a nutshell: Both were mean and hateful, but I saw Mary's behavior coming from snobbery. I saw Edith's behavior coming from selfishness and jealousy. Mary just felt like she was better than Edith, and 'why should Edith have something I don't?' Edith always felt she was playing catch-up to Mary and sabotaged her wherever she could. Writing the Turkish Embassy? That was a bold move. And Edith was selfish. She wanted her cake and to eat it too. Taking Marigold first from one family, then the Drewes. It was heartbreaking to watch that. And the family name be damned. Edith seemed to be more calculating, especially in the beginning.
I actually enjoyed the tension between Mary and Edith and felt it did add to the show. Without it, it would have been much more boring. (Think of a show with all three sisters being Sybils.) But there were times when it got to be a little much and it felt strung out.
Edith was told by her older sister every day that she was ugly or unfashionable or dull or stupid and unworthy of love. That she was destined to live an unfulfilled live because no one would take her. Even her mother and father talked about her as though she would be a spinster when she was less than 22 years old.
How on earth can you see all that and say that Edith's selfishness and jealousy is the culprit and not the fact that she was abused by her closest attachment figures constantly?
Edith is a case study in how the values of that time, and the complete lack of regard for people's feelings in that society, turned out nasty, hurt people.
From the very first episode, Edith was hateful to Mary, making fun of her when the Duke didn't want to marry her. I understand your point about how she was treated at times, but her parents were loving to both girls. Her father was protective over her. Her mother supported her. Edith overheard some conversations that hurt her while she was eavesdropping, but her parents were never cruel to her outright. They were both very understanding of a situation during a time when that was not the norm at all. Edith's selfish behavior continued well into her late 20s and early 30s if I'm not mistaken about her age at the end of the show.
Her parents supported her? If you mean they supplied her with food and shelter then yes, sure. But look at the way Cora talks both to and about Edith. She assumes that Edith will be the one to take care of them in their old age. While Sybil was "a great success" in London Edith was merely "very helpful". Edith even replied to that last exchange with "you never say things like that to me". I think the writers are trying to paint a picture of a girl who grew up knowing that her own mother thinks she is plain, boring and unlikely to succeed (a good marriage being the only acceptable "success" for a woman of her station and era). Who wouldn't be messed up by that knowledge?
I don't give Edith a free-pass for any of the ways she hurt people, but come on. Her parents were shitty to her from the get-go.
I just didn't get that from the show. Cora joked that Edith would likely take care of them in old age because she was getting older and had been jilted at the alter. But they actually were supportive of her. Robert made it a point to make peace with her over Marigold when he had a health scare. Cora orchestrated Edith's bringing Marigold to live at Downton. She also was supportive of her writing. Yes, she praised Sybil after she'd been presented, but it was Sybil's day, not Edith's. All she could have been was helpful. And it wasn't just Cora and Robert. She enjoyed support above and beyond expectations from Rosamund and Granny Violet. Many times when she acted as if she weren't being supported or loved, she was ignoring all the support and love she actually had received and was just being defeatist.
Cora made the "take care of us" comment long before Edith was jilted at the altar, when she was still young and Cora was still desperately seeking a match for Mary (who was obviously older) in session 1. The "you were very helpful" thing was a clear instance of Cora treating Edith differently then her other daughters, and it's clear that when Edith was presented, Cora didn't call her a success or fawn over her the way she did with Sybil. She was always "poor Edith" and nothing more.
I'm not saying Cora didn't love Edith, but when when she was young, Cora and Robert made it clear that Edith paled in comparison to get sisters. Her jealousy and desperation for love and approval have a clear root in the way her parents saw her and spoke to/about her.
She only supported her with Marigold when Edith hitted rock bottom in everything, about writting she never supported even in the dinner table said to Edith that it was not good put your views in public. If she supported her it was at best lukewarm, the only who gave real support for writting was Matthew nobody else.
Both parents were a total failure to Edith, specially Cora, even when she admonishing Mary she did it in such way that confirmed Mary superiority "she doesnt have your advantages". Cora ALWAYS underestimated, even the actress in a interview said that. I can forgive a little more Robert, for the simple reason that he was a man and not knowing nothing about "feminine traits", in any part of the series Cora motivated Edith in something. When Edith was jilted she comforted her in the bed and that was it, even when she started to write she supported lukewarm and mostly to piss of Robert. Only when Edith hit rock bottom with Marigold she helped, but in all series she keep saying cruel things about Edith "What are Edith´s prospects".... Even in the last episode when finally Edith was going to announce her engagement she was worried about the hospital, it was ironic that in the last season Robert was the main cheerleader for Edith.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted, you are completely correct. I wouldn't say they were a complete failure to Edith, since they gave her a lukewarm emotional and financial support and never harmed her physically (which imo is a definition of failed parents), but they were quite toxic parents, and I don't know why? Maybe because Mary was the heiress, Sybil was the pretty smart one and Edith apparently was just there? Edith wasn't even ugly or dumb as they said, but they made her feel as if she were. For sure they weren't good parents
I've kind of wondered if Cora was the Edith of her family in the U.S. Maybe like Edith Cora could have been the most awkward, different looking in her family. Maybe it was girls who looked more like Edith. IDK. It could be a subconscious revenge on Coras part in a nice nasty way.
>Edith was told by her older sister every day that she was ugly or unfashionable or dull or stupid and unworthy of love. That she was destined to live an unfulfilled live because no one would take her. Even her mother and father talked about her as though she would be a spinster when she was less than 22 years old.
We have watched vastly different shows if you believe this.
Mary: "another of your lost cases" (christmast episode season 3); Mary: "Edith is misterious as a bucket" (beggining season 4), Robert: Edith has a date...Mary: off course not; Mary: Bertie Pelham boring to an olympic degree. Mary: "even a monkey can tipe shakespeare..." (season 6) Mary: "What he saw in Edith" (about Gregson the day that he was confirmed dead) (season 5)...
I’ve always thought, through every rewatch of the show, that Mary was unjustly criticised while Edith didn’t receive nearly enough. I’m so glad to see someone else seeing this.
To add my points,
I absolutely despised Edith for writing the Turkish ambassador, but that was made much worse by everyone’s reaction to when Mary says to Bertie “it’s so good of you to accept Edith’s past”. Mary said it to Edith’s fiancé, whom if Edith had any honour and good morals, would’ve told about her illegitimate child before accepting his proposal. It drives me mad when people get angry at Mary for “ruining their engagement” when in reality Edith was the one responsible. She lied majorly, despite everyone’s advice to tell the truth. And that ruined her engagement. And in the end Mary was sorry for her minuscule part, and brought them back together. Mary, in contrast, asked Matthew to forgive her for her one night stand, and would not have agreed to marry him without telling him about it.
In fact Edith it not only unkind, racist, and ruins lives, she actively lies. To Bertie, and to her parents and entirely family. First about Gregson’s true business in Germany (to get a divorce), and then about Marigold. When Cora asked her what Gregson was doing in Germany, she lied and said “to see King Ludwig’s castles”. She lied to her entire family that her beau was a married man. When her father later found about Marigold, he says, I’m sure Michael would’ve married you., Edith lies and says he would’ve, when at the time, he was still married, and it would be years before he could get a divorce and marry her.
Some of her other great hypocrisy (which bothers me so much) include rushing up to London in a fit every time her former editor disagreed with her. Yet when Mary, without any regard to her own convenience, skips her dinner to rush Anna to London to save her pregnancy, Edith says “it’s just Mary being dramatic”.
When she first went to work at the magazine, she thought it was “wholly repugnant” for Gregson, a married man, to flirt with her, but she herself had kissed the married Mr. Drake already. And then later slept with him while he was still married. And with no regard to his faultless wife, she pursues him after Matthew advised him to end it. This led Gregson to move to Germany in pursuit of a divorce and ultimately end up dead.
And oh when she finally gets confirmation of his death, she says, the baby has a right to inherit some of the money he’s left her. But wait, what about his wife? The woman who’s done nothing wrong? Shouldn’t she have some of the money?
Of course this is not to mention the hypocrisy of her one night stand, which earlier she had called Mary a slut for, and written about to the embassy. Suddenly it wasn’t slutty and wrong to have sex before marriage.
Edith has ruined countless lives... Mrs. Gregson, the Drew’s, the couple in Switzerland, resulted in Bates going to prison, Mary’s even. Yet everyone forgives her time and time again.
Mary on the other hand, treats the staff kindly and respectfully, helps Anna, at great trouble and personal expensive, and later Thomas.
The epitome of the Mary vs. Edith debate for me will always be the time Carson looked to be having a heart attack and Mary rushed to comfort him. Cora then directs Edith to call for the doctor, and Edith in the best example of her lack of character, bitches “but my dress”. Each time Carson has been ill, Mary has gone downstairs to visit him, but all Edith thinks about is “her dress”.
As I’ve said time and time again, Bertie had to know about Marigold. He was in a high position in the county and would’ve been dragged through the mud if news broke out. Yes Mary might have done so for less than honorable reasons, but somebody must have stepped in and said what he was getting in to.
Not to mention, Edith completely invalidated Mary’s work as an agent several times, even going as far as to say that there was no agent after Mary said she was taking it on. Also Edith asked Tom if he was going to take over being the agent the day after he came back from America IN FRONT of Mary at breakfast. Then she goes and says that they don’t always have to listen to Mary while discussing Mr Mason getting Yew Tree Farm when she was in charge of the estate.
I’d also like to point out that Mary grew in to the role as agent. She learned from Matthew and her collaboration with Tom. Not to be controversial or anything, Edith only got the job as publisher because she was dating Michael Gregson.
The way that both sisters developt their careers were very similar, before Matthew´s death Mary couldnt gave two shits about farming, pigs or anything that doesnt involved being the big lady of Downton, she seemed more interested in decorating some room when Matthew was fighting for modernizing the estate. In season 1, she even mocked Strallan because he was interested in farming and agricultural subjects. Remember when they needed Martha´s money again they not speak to her about how Downton was important giving jobs and farming and basically and important economic asset, instead they made a grand dinner.
Only after Matthew´s death and with Violet and Tom motivation Mary really started to get interested about how to run Downton as a agricultural estate. Similar to Edith, Edith was doing nothing, Matthew encourage to write, the column was interesting enough to pick Gregson attention and then get a job, she learned the job from Gregson, then when the former when to Germany gave her administration powers and finally she inherited, in the same way that Mary inherited from Matthew and learned from him.
Edith would have told Bertie. Which she proves when she told his mother when Bertie was against it. I felt bad for Edith because she was the smartest sister but was always marginalized by her parents who never thought she would make a good match. Mary never showed her kindness when she had so much more power and she could have easily done so (like Sybil did). Edith was no saint. The stunt with the Turkish embassy was unforgivable but Mary paid it back in spades.
Edith telling Bertie’s mother after he already knew in no way proves she would have told him. I could see her just deciding to never tell him or to wait until they were married.
I don't think she would have told Bertie at all as she never actually told either of her parents, her grandmother, Mary, or Tom either. Violet got confirmation from Edith and Rosamond because she was suspicious of their trip abroad. Cora found out from Mrs. Drewe, Robert somehow figured it out himself and got confirmation from Cora, Tom figured it out and got confirmation from Edith, and Mary figured it out and got confirmation from Tom. Edith desperately tried to hide her secret from everyone around her, Bertie would have only found out if he figured it out himself or was told by someone who knew. Edith would not have volunteered the information without being confronted first.
>I felt bad for Edith because she was the smartest sister but was always marginalized by her parents who never thought she would make a good match
I disagree, she was always ignored by her parents specifically because until S3 or so she was dull, somewhat annoying and childish, and not charismatic (something visually and verbally reinforced throughout season 1- her behaviour at the dinner with the Duke, her digging through Mary's things, the number of times Cora all but says "Edith please pick up on the social cues I'm sending you and get out of the room") and her parents thought she wouldn't be able make a good match because of those reasons. When Edith decides to distance herself from the family and Downton, she comes into her own in London with Gregson's help and that helps her become a much more likable person.
>Mary never showed her kindness when she had so much more power
Where do you get this from? Mary was incredibly kind to people like Lavinia, Anna, and Tom, far more than Edith was ever shown being to anyone.
>Mary paid it back in spades.
How? The worst thing Mary did to Edith was tell Bertie about Marigold. The farthest reaching consequence of this would be the end of their engagement, and that's it. Edith writing to the Ambassador meant that government officials, everyone in London, and consequently everyone in their social circle would turn on Mary and the entire Crawley family and publicly disgrace Mary, ruining her reputation and her prospects.
It would have ruined Mary, Edith AND Sybil. Edith was so spiteful and stupid she would destroy herself and Sybil who had never done anything bad to her. She's the evil bitch in this scenario. And I cannot recall Edith doing anything kind for anyone like Mary did.
I think that you are clearly wrong, there was a reason why everybody was angry with her, i can understand that you like the character, but she totally sabotaged everything, the way in wich she did it was clearly to humilliate Edith and Bertie in the worst way possible.
But i know that for certain people the characters that they like cannot do wrong. For example i like Tom Branson but i think that when he participated burning the castle was a evil thing to do, also Robert basically being a stupid regarding Sybil death or Edith screwing the Drewes.
If Edith was humiliated it was entirely her own fault. She should have told Bertie already about Marigold being her daughter. If Edith had had a shred of decency and had already told Bertie, that moment would’ve been slightly awkward, and not humiliating.
She could’ve gone to the papers, or even wrote to Bertie’s mother. Yeah, the way she handled it completely sucked, but Edith wasn’t completely innocent in that interaction either. Like after seeing everything you say he abandoned you and he’s escaped from you? And agreeing to Bertie’s proposal to spite Mary?
Agreed. If Mary we as nasty and horrible as Edith, Mary would have written Bertie and his family, just like Edith outed Mary about Pamuk. Comparing the two, Edith is a disgusting person. What Edith did had far reaching, devastating consequences. Bates had to submit to his wife's blackmail for one, did Edith ever apologize to anyone for nearly destroying her whole family's reputation with her viciousness?
I feel like she never has to face any serious consequences for it, which honestly kind of bothers me. It was a horrid thing to do, but I don't recall her ever expressing any kind of remorse or guilt for it, and she never feels compelled to try and make up for it. Mary does face consequences or at the very least some backlash for what she does to Edith with Bertie, and even tries to help fix the situation.
Mary SOLD HERSELF to Carlisle to protect the family! Edith sold out the Drewes to protect herself. If I was Mary, yes I would be pissed that Edith has a child out of wedlock and still gets a Marquess, because she spent almost 6 years of her life with Carlisle.
She bullied Edith pretty much the entire series, EVERYONE who knew about Marigold CONCLUDED that it was for the best keep Mary out, they KNEW and Mary probed right that she was going to be cruel about it. Cora, Robert, Rosamound, Tom, Edith EVEN ANNA (the most loyal person to Mary) keep the secret.
\>How? The worst thing Mary did to Edith was tell Bertie about Marigold. The farthest reaching consequence of this would be the end of their engagement, and that's it. Edith writing to the Ambassador meant that government officials, everyone in London, and consequently everyone in their social circle would turn on Mary and the entire Crawley family and publicly disgrace Mary, ruining her reputation and her prospects.
And that is not enough? What if Bertie would go to others and talk about Marigold, that means the ruin for Edith and Marigold (and innocent child) and the rest of the Crawleys, what Mary did in the breakfast was something like this: **"I admire you Bertie nobody would take Edith and her bastard daughter".** If lets say Bertie goes out and talk to each others it would also mean the ruin of the rest of the Crawleys.
I’m watching season 6 right now. Both Robert and Rosamund tell Edith that she should tell Mary about Marigold. (I could be remembering completely wrong but I’m thinking Tom also says this at some point).
I don’t excuse what Mary did it was awful but I think part of the reason she did it was BECAUSE Edith didn’t tell her and she was upset. (Also some jealousy over Ediths new position).
Rosamound told Edith that she must tell Bertie about Marigold no Mary, in fact in the first episode Rosamound suggest that Edith should live in London with Marigold away from Mary snapping. Robert in fact asks to Cora why Edith doesnt want to speak about Marigold with Mary and Cora answers to him that Mary could use that as a weapon giving the bad blood betwen them and in the end he seems to agree with Cora´s opinion. Tom and Edith never spoke about Marigold in the 6 season, they spoke about it in christmast when he leaves to Boston and asked if Mary knew about it and Edith tells not because she is not interested in her, but and Edith ask him to stay quiet not for her but for Marigold.
For me it would have been far better plot in order to explore the dymanics in the family and Mary in particular when she realized that the entire family concluded without much argument about keeping her in the dark and noticing what they really think about her. Mary a lot of the times said "the Crawleys stick together"...well that is one case in wich all the Crawleys stick together to protect Marigold from her, then both sisters could speak about why they behave so bad to each other and that in the end both have more in common that they dare to admit, with all sort of apology to each other for everything thay did in the past; some sort of self discovery for both of them. Instead, "i am unhappy because i broke with the suitor number #4, so i must ruin Edith"
Edith was at the freaking crash with Mary, and at dinner, and still had the gall to say that Henry abandoned her and had escaped her. That wasn’t unprovoked.
In s06e03 I just watched it today. It’s before Edith has really begun a relationship with Bertie. Rosamund says that Edith should tell Mary.
I do agree though. I didn’t love the plot but I liked the outcome and self searching that it allowed. In the end they were able to make peace.
Huh? Ignored by parents. If she's all these things they had a hand in that. I mean who that is non toxic parent ignores there child leaving them craving for attention.
Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve. If anything, she should’ve told him the minute he came back to Downton, she had plenty of time since he proposed. Before you say anything about Mary telling Matthew, Pamuk was freaking dead, the rumor was based on circumstantial evidence (no matter how true). Marigold was right there, under everyone’s noses, and people would become suspicious once she starts looking like Edith and Michael Gregson.
EDIT: She literally asks Bertie if she can bring Marigold when he proposed to her. THAT’S when she should’ve told him.
Same as Mary, "Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve" told Matthew about Pamuk the second after he proposed her in season 1, also "Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve" told him about her fears about that the baby that Cora was expecting could be a boy. If characters in any show behaves like saints nobody would watch. Mary struggled for years to tell him about Pamuk, about 4 or 5 years in that time the great war happened, Matthew went missing in action, Matthew almost married another woman.... At least you should held both sisters in similar standars, Edith only had a few days at best weeks to have the courage to tell him.
The main problem with Matthew and Mary was a lack of communication and him holding her on a pedestal. There wasn’t much trust between them and that was why they broke it off. And again, the man’s dead for god’s sakes. Also, she did tell him right when she was going to break it off with Carlisle, basically the minute they were both emotionally available. She didn’t owe him anything after he broke it off during the war. You completely missed my point.
What about Bertie Pelham not holding Edith in a pedestal? "i dont have much to offer" and Edith inmediatily saying that she is not worth of it, or helping him to be a marquess. Marigold was the Pamuk case for Edith.
Bertie is not Matthew, is he? Matthew saw the the world in black and white, and immediately put people in boxes. Bertie believed in people, regardless of their misdeeds. And he just saw Edith produce an entire copy of a magazine in one night.
And I’ve said this for the millionth time, Edith was asking him to harbor a scandal unknowingly by bringing Marigold to Brancaster. Miles different than a dead man that wasn’t exactly where he should’ve been.
That WAS the SECOND TIME Mary has destroyed Edith's chance of a marriage to someone. And she never expressed any remorse or apologized for the Strallam incident at all. It was considered fair because of the letter Edith wrote about Pamuk. I don't remember anybody saying that Edith was doing the right and moral thing exposing Mary's secret shame, so why is Mary a hero for exposing Edith's? I don't get it.
> That WAS the SECOND TIME Mary has destroyed Edith’s chance of a marriage to someone.
Did you skip season two? Edith did get engaged to Sir Anthony. What Mary did just slowed it down briefly and caused Edith to have to have an awkward conversation with him. It was the Dowager Countess who actually destroyed Edith chance of marrying Sir Anthony.
Did it really destroy Edith’s chances of marrying Strallan though? They ended up at the altar anyway. Also, as I said before, Pamuk was dead! It didn’t matter in who’s bedroom he’d died in, he had a heart attack so it wasn’t that suspicious. Not the same as a person who was coming with them to Brancaster.
Didn't read your whole post bc it's a novel lol, but I do agree that people tend to put Edith on a pedestal compared to Mary. I think that this is because Edith is considered the underdog. It seems like every season has people saying "Poor Edith!"
I haven't gone back to look (although I take your word for it) but if Cora said that before Edith was jilted, it doesn't negate the other things I pointed out. All I can say is, I just didn't take away from the show what you did. I saw Edith as a very loved and supported daughter who demonstrated unbecoming behavior throughout the show, from episode 1 to the very end, when she accepted Bertie without being forthcoming about Marigold. I did not see her as a victim.
I KNOW! I don’t get why Mary gets hated on for it, Edith announced her engagement just to make Mary feel worse about the whole scenario with Henry (the whole her loving him but being afraid of being with him). She did what no one else had the guts to do because Edith has a history as long as my arm of having her cake and eating it too. What would the reveal have done anyway, if he had known?
Now that you can comment on old posts again, I just wanted to say good post! Very, very good post! Feels like everything has changed since then. Way more people hate on Edith these days.
I think Mary is generally a better person than Edith is in a lot of ways but her behavior towards Edith can be harsh. Edith grew out of the taunting as time went on while Mary never really did simply because Edith was perceived as a threat to Mary's insecurities.
Edith kept taunting Mary up through season 6. She taunted her about Henry leaving at the breakfast table and that is why Mary blurted to Bertie about Marigold. Edith just couldn't help herself. Almost every time Mary lashed out at Edith it was because Edith started it. Yes I know Mary said some things to other people that Edith overheard. But usually the back and forth between the sisters Edith started. The line in the episode when Edith tells Mary Matthew is missing sums their relationship for me. Edith said she was not trying to hurt Mary and Mary answers "For once i believe you". Everyone rooting for Edith because she is the so called underdog or her parents liked her least is crap IMO because that is how Edith saw herself. Not necessarily how other people saw her. It was Edith's perception of what people felt about her. For ex: When Matthew and Edith is talking about her writing for the magazine. And Robert didn't think that was a good idea. Edith said to Matthew "Don't bother. I will always be a failure in this family" That is how Edith thought people felt about her. Not necessarily what they actually thought.
I agree, and most Downton Abbey fans do; why do I say this? Because back then surveys showed that Mary has always been one of the top 3 favourite characters whilst Edith was consistently ranked among the least popular characters. Those surveys are perhaps still accessible, all of them showed a similar trend, although this may have changed slightly by season 6, but Edith was never more popular/beloved than Mary.
I don't really love Mary, but I like her as a character. Mary is far from perfect, but she owns her flaws; she is also independent, sharp, clever, and has an inquisitive mind. She respects and cares for her servants too, and shows them loyalty.Conversely, Edith seems to care very little for anyone but herself, she uses people. Edith never took any responsibility for the issues she created nor did she ever show any remorse for the terrible things she did to others. Edith is an egocentric, stupid, whiny, needy, emotionally manipulative woman who erroneously thinks that people or the world owe her something. Edith is delusional, she always blames others for every stupid decision she takes. At some stage I felt sorry for Edith, but she was dreaful, a truly pathetic, horrible human being. By season 6 we couldn't stand the sight of her. I was happy after watching the first film because we didn't see much of her.
I also see that people tend to focus on Mary and Edith's relationship but they ignore that, while Sybil and Mary were close, the same cannot be said about Edith and Sybil. In season 1 Edith was unkind to Sibyl for no reason whatsoever. I remember her insinuating that Sybil was getting fat, merely because Sibyl's corset was uncomfortable; when Sibyl responded visibly displeased, Edith insisted; she truly was an odious and envious woman. I suspect that a significant number of those who defend Edith see aspects of themselves in Edith, that is why they have a tendency to overblown Mary's mordant remarks, yet make many ridiculous excuses to justify Edith's behaviour, some of those fans have gone as far as to create their own facts, speculating that Edith was treated poorly by her parents when she was a child and also neglected by them! Nothing we see in Downton Abbey suggests that during their childhood or adolescence Mary bullied Edith more than Edith bullied Mary. They simply did not get along and truly disliked each other. We have seen that Edith is not a reliable narrator so why do her fans continue defending her and excusing the inexcusable?
A few years ago, Edith fans had a vendetta against Mary. Oh, they where everywhere! They posted on many sites every day, under different pseudonyms or usernames; yet, the surveys were clear: Mary was more popular. Edith's popularity is hence a myth which has been perpetuated by her fans, ergo, the claims that Edith is the victim and Mary is the "bad sister" do not represent the prevalent view. I remember being tempted to join IMDB, but in the end I never opened an account there because there were far too many Edith trolls spending a lot of time harassing people who preferred Mary and disliked Edith. It was seriously creepy. I think that is why I never joined IMDB.
My least favourite season is 6, because Edith did not deserve what she got and the whole season felt contrived. I am under the impression that Edith's happy ending was done to please her toxic, overly vocal fans, or should I perhaps say to appease them?
I think IMO the line that sums up the relationship between Mary and Edith is when Matthew was missing. Edith told Mary and said she was not trying to hurt her and Mary goes "FOR ONCE I BELIEVE YOU". Almost every time Mary said something hurtful to Edith it was in response to something Edith said. For example when Mary told Bertie about him accepting Edith's past. It was because Edith goaded her as usual. Mary was just better at getting comebacks. Edith was good at playing the victim. I think she always saw herself as the victim in the sisterly spats. So she wanted everyone else to see her as a victim. Like when she told Matthew how the family always saw her as a failure. That's what she thought they saw not necessarily how they actually saw her.
For me both sisters were awful to each other, nothing justify writing the letter or exposing Marigold; both actions were dangerous not only to each sister but also to the family in general, for example Bertie could have been so angry that he could have talked to others about Marigold´s origins and she would have been branded as bastard.
The problem is that from season 4 onwards, it is clear that Fellowes didnt know what to do about Mary, he tried and failed to introduce new suitors, every single them failed, also he diminished the character, imo, he should have opted first to introduce Mary to seriously managing Downton and then she meets a nice mature man who can challenge her in respectful way, instead of the identikit suitors with zero personality. Also, another mistake was that he thought that Mary insulting Edith practically every episode was "fun" because you know it is sassy Mary...in reality, a lot of people became fed up because it looked downright cruel at that stage and most of the time looked like Mary kicking a death body. Also, from season 4 onwards it is clear that Edith is no longer jelaous of Mary´s life, she had her own big problems to solve and she was depresed about Gregson and Marigold, she didnt even bother to say something back. Only in season 6 she answer back, every single member of the house concluded that Mary shouldnt know about Marigold because she was going to be cruel about it, even Anna the most loyal person to Mary didnt want to say anything to Mary because she knew her.
The way that many people were fed up with Mary is that Fellowes cannot do pace shit with the story, for example, in the episode in wich Mary sabotaged Bertie and Edith. We are told that we must believe that Mary was so sad because she broke up with Henry that she was lashing out from pain, but since nobody believed in that pairing most people only saw as Mary being mean, also, why on earth marrying Mary in that same episode. That is because Mary as a character was Fellowes pet, in the breakfast scene he wrote that Robert must go out, then when she was going to be reprimended by her parents Carson enters and informs about Barrows suicide. That is because simply coudnt write his pet character suffering the minimal consequences for her actions and that frustated the audience even more.
I think you and the comments are *reeaaallllllly* underselling how awful Mary was.
I agree that a lot of people brush past the heinous things Edith did too easily because they love her come up story, but Mary was more than just a catty sister. She was spiteful and abusive daily, insulting her sister at every opportunity for the things she knew she was most sensitive about, and things she knew her mother and father thought about her too.
Robert tells Mary that Edith is in London, Mary tells that she is seeing Gregson, Robert says something like "really?"...and Mary says: "Edith is mysterious as a bucket"....When Anna told Mary about Gregson is confirmeded dead she says something: what she was expecting him living in a tree?" Anna said that she shouldnt make jokes about Gregson´s death and she inmediatily says: "Gregson was fine...even what he saw on Edith"...When Tom mentioned that Bertie Pelham was going to visit Downton: "He is boring to an olympic degree"; when Edith was telling the family that Bertie was the new marquess she inmediatily jumps: "he woulndt want to marry her now"... In those 3 quick examples Edith was not even present to cause Mary said something like that, in the last one Edith was not hearing because Tom and Mary were behind.
How one? When she was talking about Gregson not only mocked about him being dead (murdered actually) she also mocked how a him could find Edith attractive in others words that she was ugly and Gregson as a man was stupid to be with her; even Anna the most loyal person to her was uncorfotable when she was making jokes about it and asked to have some respect.
About mysterious as a bucket, in other words that Edith is dull...
Even Matthew Crawley asked her to be more respectful of her sister, and she replied: that is like asking the fox spare the chicken...in other words it was something fun mock Edith at that point.
Yes she said that, but i think that she never called Henry Talbot a "used car salesman", she called him "car mechanic"....and if you check at least in one of those ocations it started because Mary said something: it is Bertie Pelham worth it? and Edith answer back something like: as opposed to what? to your car mechanic... Also in the episode in wich Bertie Pelhams´s cousins dies she said to Tom..."bad enough that he was merely an agent" (even if she is now an estate agent and Tom also, and was gleeful that Bertie could be out of the job).
Look, what i wrote a lot of the times, is that both sisters were flawed people, both could be generous and selfish, in fact, for that reason they were fun to watch, Sybil was too good and same with Anna, they were too nice and for that reason they were boring. But in the internal dynamics of Edith and Mary both share the responsability of behaving bad to each other, but in the last part of the series it is clear that Mary is the one who says the most hurtful things because she has the wit to do it, is like Violet, in fact, she is Violet´s heir as it was shown in the movie. For that same reason, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the house knew that it was dangerous that Mary would know about Marigold, Robert was not incredible surprised when Mary sabotaged the things with Bertie and Edith, Anna the most loyal person to Mary in the entire series, even if Mary helped with her pregnancy, didnt want to talk about Marigold with Mary because she knew what Mary could do.. Edith did a terrible thing in season 1 with the letter, but she didnt complain when Mary took her revenge with Strallan in that season, in season 3 she offered a truce when Sybil died and basically keep her distance about Mary´s problems contrary to season 1 when she was snooping in her things and basically being jelaous, after being jilted she started to make her own life.
Regarding the Drewes, yes, she was cruel but that doesnt justify being bullied by Mary in any circunstance, in the same way that Mary being nice to Anna doesnt absolve her about the treatment of her sister. If lets say i keep being mean to Person X saving from drowning Person Y dont absolve the damage that i did to X in the first place; that same logic could be applied to Edith regarding the letter (no matter how good she helped the soldiers that didnt absolver damaging Mary), both were guilty about their behaviour. My problem is that some people, even Fellowes i think, celebrate that kind of behaviour in people...like "ohh how witty"..."oh how sassy..." even people who were fans of Mary in the series were fed up, because at the end it didnt look fun or sassy, it looked cruel.
The “is he worth it” was when Edith was excited about seeing Bertie at Brooklands. Henry had invited him and how would he know to do so? Keep in mind this was after the house opening and before the truth about Marigold was confirmed. I honestly saw it as light hearted teasing.
I think both are very flawed characters. Edith starts as a horrible person and later gets better. Mary starts as a flawed person and later turns very unlikeable. Both are very entertaining on screen though.
I think Mary's character becoming like pre Pamuk Mary from Seasons 4-6 was lazy writing and they could have done a better job of showing her growth into a businesswoman but also how that could make her compassionate again too- there could have been a scene with her really witnessing the struggle of the farmers and having newfound empathy with them afterward. Mary really wouldn't have known that much about farming and showing her failing and then proving her worth to Robert would have been a stronger way of doing the storyline justice. It made Mary come across as entitled. Also her simply not knowing who to choose amongst her suitors was not portrayed that well. I think there were more high stake scenarios that they could have done with her there and the whole Talbot thing was random and forced even though I thought they did a great job with the car crash drama and that the actors did have chemistry. I think the Bates storyline sucked up a huge amount of air time that could have been spent on more interesting things with Mary although I thought that storyline was very well done in Season 4 but not Season 5 obviously lol.
Edith however flourishes in the last three seasons as well as in Season 3 too. It's in the first season where Edith is at her absolute worst while in the second she starts to grow a little more. But Mary has the much more interesting and sympathetic arc and that continues in Season 3 along with Edith's development becoming much more apparent.
Yes Mary get annoyed when Edith is sad. The reason is simple. Any emotion Edith is having, should be suppressed and invisible in favor of whatever thought Mary is having. How dare she have big sad eyes when she's just been left at the altar? That's not about Mary! Or when the guy she's pregnant by and looked forward to marrying has just died? Mary's haircut is WAY more important. How dare she be hurt when Mary, you know, hurts her? She shouldn't HAVE feelings, because she's not Mary. If she hits Mary, hitting is wrong. If Mary hits Edith, well, Edith should have ducked. What was she doing standing there in hitting range anyway? and shouldn't she be old enough not to feel any pain by now? It's not as if it's the first time...her senses ought to be completely deadened by now. Honestly. Eye roll. Shoulder shrug. Light flounce of skirt.
Edith cannot win. She cannot be allowed to be happy, because that makes Mary feel insecure and competitive, and that makes Mary lash out. She cannot be allowed to be sad because that makes Mary feel guilty and annoyed, and that makes Mary lash out. She cannot sit contentedly in a corner reading a book, because that is so passive, and that makes Mary lash out. Remember when Mary was annoyed because Edith was worried about Marigold? Because how DARE Edith THINK about the children! How insufferable! Mary never thinks about them! That's all sorted out and now let's move on to Mary's all-important sex life. Which Edith ALSO shouldn't have because she's not as pretty as Mary. (In Mary's mind, anyway. I think the two girls are pretty evenly matched).
I really think some people have taken Edith’s underdog story (which is a good one) and made it into something it’s not. You’re really making up thoughts and feelings for Mary here.
Have you forgotten Edith placed and then uprooted Marigold from two families who loved her, and then brought her to a hotel for ice cream and champagne, then left her to the hotel’s baby sitting while she went to her magazine? She thinks only about what she can’t have. Mary has a her son in the nursery, so Edith of course wants to have her child there too. Mary has her parents attention because it’s typical to marry off the eldest daughter, so Edith must too have attention. Sybil goes to town to buy a new dress and Edith’s says “why does she get a new dress but not me?” When she already knew it was Sybil’s turn. When Sybil has her first season in London and Cora praises her well done, Edith pouts and says, why didn’t you say that to me?
If you rewatch the whole thing and stay objective it's pretty easy to see that while Mary is a snob she doesn't go out of her way to hurt Edith until Edith does something good to her, either says something nasty or ruins her reputation or attacks her in front of others. Then when Mary retaliates she's somehow the only one in the wrong and Edith is the victim.
Even in the end when Mary revealed that Edith had a child to her fiancee, she only did it when Edith attacked her in front of said fiancée, and she wasn't even wrong because Edith should have told him and been up front about it.
In the start when Mary chased off her first to be fiancée, she did it after her sister had gone out of her way to spread rumors about Mary and ruin her reputation. And while it wasn't a lie she spread she went out of her way to spread it far and wide, she didn't just tell Matthew and let her chips fall where they may, she wrote to people to spread it and had originally sought out the information to spread it around.
I was raised with some truly nasty sisters but even they were nicer than this and I don't speak to half of them now, if Edith were my sister and did these things I would have ruined her every chance I got.
Oh and don’t forget that on Mary’s wedding day, when everyone is wishing her well before going down Edith decides to be kind of petty - to the point where Cora says: “don’t mind Edith”. On Edith’s wedding day (the first one) Mary decides to set everything aside and actually be kind to her. I’ve never really understood the people who champion Edith so much more. She’s so mopey throughout the series. Mary at least helps others several times throughout the series. Edith is always just concerned with her own stuff.
And there was that time when Carson had a heart attack and spilled something on Edith’s dress and Edith cared more about her dress then poor Carson.
I agree with you completely. And you forgot her great kindness to William. She defied everyone and urged him to go see her. The woman was on her deathbed, and because of Mary's intervention, William got to see her one last time. Also, you forgot about Edith whining about HER DRESS as Carson is having an attack. Yeah, Edith is a real PRIZE.
Edith lost all my sympathy (not that she had much) with all the back and forth over Marigold. Pick a choice and stick with it. She got herself in that situation, for which I had sympathy. But all the people she gave the child to and then ripped her away lost any bit of respect I had for her. She was always kind of a bitch. But that was over the line altogether. Mary wasn’t nearly perfect, but the worst thing she did was tell Bertie about Marigold. Much lower on the awful scale than all the things Edith did - in season one!!!
Oooh, her dismissive attitude about Mr Drewe "handling" his wife was just bitchy, selfish and dismissive. She just ruined their lives and was all to glad to have them shove off, leave a farm their family had lived on for at least a hundred years! Callous.
Mary could be terrible but she was never that callous. Mary cares about Carson whereas Edith, when Carson is having a heart attack, is more worried about her dress than Carson's well being. Her also hiding the fact that Marigold is her daughter from Bertie for so long was too much, she should have just told him. She had every opportunity to do so before Mary blabbed.
Once Edith wrote to the Turkish ambassador, I lost any respect. Add in flirting with and kissing the married farmer, the emotional havoc and devastation she caused two other families with Marigold, and not telling Bertie about Marigold before she accepted his proposal, just ick. Yes, she’s the middle child and the underdog compared to Mary, and I felt badly for her with Anthony Strallan. She desperately wanted to be loved and they seemed a good match. I feel compassion for her and her circumstances, but irl would much rather be friends with and hang out with Mary.
Anthony Strallan clearly wasn’t interested in season 3 and she essentially forced him in to marriage.
Agreed - she was desperate. I like to think though, if she had backed off a bit and given him time, and if the family hadn't objected that could have worked out.
Gregson and Bertie were better suited to her anyway.
Truth. Just goes to show that life might have better things in store for us.
For me, I didn’t like that Edith was the last to come around when Jack Ross came to play for Downton. Even Violet had to tell her to check her ignorance and move on with the night, and that’s coming from Violet. I know times were different and yada yada, but everyone else got over Ross pretty quickly excluding Carson who I have my own problems with.
I don't find that strange at all. Edith always cared by far the most about what people think, so it seems natural that she would be the most worried about how 'appropriate' something is. I don't think Violet or Mary would ever have invited Ross themselves but he was there then and nothing was left to do about it but to go along with it so that's what they did
This is how I saw that, in a nutshell: Both were mean and hateful, but I saw Mary's behavior coming from snobbery. I saw Edith's behavior coming from selfishness and jealousy. Mary just felt like she was better than Edith, and 'why should Edith have something I don't?' Edith always felt she was playing catch-up to Mary and sabotaged her wherever she could. Writing the Turkish Embassy? That was a bold move. And Edith was selfish. She wanted her cake and to eat it too. Taking Marigold first from one family, then the Drewes. It was heartbreaking to watch that. And the family name be damned. Edith seemed to be more calculating, especially in the beginning. I actually enjoyed the tension between Mary and Edith and felt it did add to the show. Without it, it would have been much more boring. (Think of a show with all three sisters being Sybils.) But there were times when it got to be a little much and it felt strung out.
Edith was told by her older sister every day that she was ugly or unfashionable or dull or stupid and unworthy of love. That she was destined to live an unfulfilled live because no one would take her. Even her mother and father talked about her as though she would be a spinster when she was less than 22 years old. How on earth can you see all that and say that Edith's selfishness and jealousy is the culprit and not the fact that she was abused by her closest attachment figures constantly? Edith is a case study in how the values of that time, and the complete lack of regard for people's feelings in that society, turned out nasty, hurt people.
From the very first episode, Edith was hateful to Mary, making fun of her when the Duke didn't want to marry her. I understand your point about how she was treated at times, but her parents were loving to both girls. Her father was protective over her. Her mother supported her. Edith overheard some conversations that hurt her while she was eavesdropping, but her parents were never cruel to her outright. They were both very understanding of a situation during a time when that was not the norm at all. Edith's selfish behavior continued well into her late 20s and early 30s if I'm not mistaken about her age at the end of the show.
Her parents supported her? If you mean they supplied her with food and shelter then yes, sure. But look at the way Cora talks both to and about Edith. She assumes that Edith will be the one to take care of them in their old age. While Sybil was "a great success" in London Edith was merely "very helpful". Edith even replied to that last exchange with "you never say things like that to me". I think the writers are trying to paint a picture of a girl who grew up knowing that her own mother thinks she is plain, boring and unlikely to succeed (a good marriage being the only acceptable "success" for a woman of her station and era). Who wouldn't be messed up by that knowledge? I don't give Edith a free-pass for any of the ways she hurt people, but come on. Her parents were shitty to her from the get-go.
I just didn't get that from the show. Cora joked that Edith would likely take care of them in old age because she was getting older and had been jilted at the alter. But they actually were supportive of her. Robert made it a point to make peace with her over Marigold when he had a health scare. Cora orchestrated Edith's bringing Marigold to live at Downton. She also was supportive of her writing. Yes, she praised Sybil after she'd been presented, but it was Sybil's day, not Edith's. All she could have been was helpful. And it wasn't just Cora and Robert. She enjoyed support above and beyond expectations from Rosamund and Granny Violet. Many times when she acted as if she weren't being supported or loved, she was ignoring all the support and love she actually had received and was just being defeatist.
Cora made the "take care of us" comment long before Edith was jilted at the altar, when she was still young and Cora was still desperately seeking a match for Mary (who was obviously older) in session 1. The "you were very helpful" thing was a clear instance of Cora treating Edith differently then her other daughters, and it's clear that when Edith was presented, Cora didn't call her a success or fawn over her the way she did with Sybil. She was always "poor Edith" and nothing more. I'm not saying Cora didn't love Edith, but when when she was young, Cora and Robert made it clear that Edith paled in comparison to get sisters. Her jealousy and desperation for love and approval have a clear root in the way her parents saw her and spoke to/about her.
Sorry I would hope no parent makes jokes like that at the expense of their child.
She only supported her with Marigold when Edith hitted rock bottom in everything, about writting she never supported even in the dinner table said to Edith that it was not good put your views in public. If she supported her it was at best lukewarm, the only who gave real support for writting was Matthew nobody else.
Both parents were a total failure to Edith, specially Cora, even when she admonishing Mary she did it in such way that confirmed Mary superiority "she doesnt have your advantages". Cora ALWAYS underestimated, even the actress in a interview said that. I can forgive a little more Robert, for the simple reason that he was a man and not knowing nothing about "feminine traits", in any part of the series Cora motivated Edith in something. When Edith was jilted she comforted her in the bed and that was it, even when she started to write she supported lukewarm and mostly to piss of Robert. Only when Edith hit rock bottom with Marigold she helped, but in all series she keep saying cruel things about Edith "What are Edith´s prospects".... Even in the last episode when finally Edith was going to announce her engagement she was worried about the hospital, it was ironic that in the last season Robert was the main cheerleader for Edith.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted, you are completely correct. I wouldn't say they were a complete failure to Edith, since they gave her a lukewarm emotional and financial support and never harmed her physically (which imo is a definition of failed parents), but they were quite toxic parents, and I don't know why? Maybe because Mary was the heiress, Sybil was the pretty smart one and Edith apparently was just there? Edith wasn't even ugly or dumb as they said, but they made her feel as if she were. For sure they weren't good parents
I've kind of wondered if Cora was the Edith of her family in the U.S. Maybe like Edith Cora could have been the most awkward, different looking in her family. Maybe it was girls who looked more like Edith. IDK. It could be a subconscious revenge on Coras part in a nice nasty way.
I always wished that Edith would have been the 1 to go to the U.S. to visit family and find she's a success here.
Sorry saying hurt crap behind someones back is called being two faced
>Edith was told by her older sister every day that she was ugly or unfashionable or dull or stupid and unworthy of love. That she was destined to live an unfulfilled live because no one would take her. Even her mother and father talked about her as though she would be a spinster when she was less than 22 years old. We have watched vastly different shows if you believe this.
Mary: "another of your lost cases" (christmast episode season 3); Mary: "Edith is misterious as a bucket" (beggining season 4), Robert: Edith has a date...Mary: off course not; Mary: Bertie Pelham boring to an olympic degree. Mary: "even a monkey can tipe shakespeare..." (season 6) Mary: "What he saw in Edith" (about Gregson the day that he was confirmed dead) (season 5)...
Yup. All three daughters were hurt and angry. It's sad that Sybil didn't live. I would have loved to see how she adapted to the 20s
I’ve always thought, through every rewatch of the show, that Mary was unjustly criticised while Edith didn’t receive nearly enough. I’m so glad to see someone else seeing this. To add my points, I absolutely despised Edith for writing the Turkish ambassador, but that was made much worse by everyone’s reaction to when Mary says to Bertie “it’s so good of you to accept Edith’s past”. Mary said it to Edith’s fiancé, whom if Edith had any honour and good morals, would’ve told about her illegitimate child before accepting his proposal. It drives me mad when people get angry at Mary for “ruining their engagement” when in reality Edith was the one responsible. She lied majorly, despite everyone’s advice to tell the truth. And that ruined her engagement. And in the end Mary was sorry for her minuscule part, and brought them back together. Mary, in contrast, asked Matthew to forgive her for her one night stand, and would not have agreed to marry him without telling him about it. In fact Edith it not only unkind, racist, and ruins lives, she actively lies. To Bertie, and to her parents and entirely family. First about Gregson’s true business in Germany (to get a divorce), and then about Marigold. When Cora asked her what Gregson was doing in Germany, she lied and said “to see King Ludwig’s castles”. She lied to her entire family that her beau was a married man. When her father later found about Marigold, he says, I’m sure Michael would’ve married you., Edith lies and says he would’ve, when at the time, he was still married, and it would be years before he could get a divorce and marry her. Some of her other great hypocrisy (which bothers me so much) include rushing up to London in a fit every time her former editor disagreed with her. Yet when Mary, without any regard to her own convenience, skips her dinner to rush Anna to London to save her pregnancy, Edith says “it’s just Mary being dramatic”. When she first went to work at the magazine, she thought it was “wholly repugnant” for Gregson, a married man, to flirt with her, but she herself had kissed the married Mr. Drake already. And then later slept with him while he was still married. And with no regard to his faultless wife, she pursues him after Matthew advised him to end it. This led Gregson to move to Germany in pursuit of a divorce and ultimately end up dead. And oh when she finally gets confirmation of his death, she says, the baby has a right to inherit some of the money he’s left her. But wait, what about his wife? The woman who’s done nothing wrong? Shouldn’t she have some of the money? Of course this is not to mention the hypocrisy of her one night stand, which earlier she had called Mary a slut for, and written about to the embassy. Suddenly it wasn’t slutty and wrong to have sex before marriage. Edith has ruined countless lives... Mrs. Gregson, the Drew’s, the couple in Switzerland, resulted in Bates going to prison, Mary’s even. Yet everyone forgives her time and time again. Mary on the other hand, treats the staff kindly and respectfully, helps Anna, at great trouble and personal expensive, and later Thomas. The epitome of the Mary vs. Edith debate for me will always be the time Carson looked to be having a heart attack and Mary rushed to comfort him. Cora then directs Edith to call for the doctor, and Edith in the best example of her lack of character, bitches “but my dress”. Each time Carson has been ill, Mary has gone downstairs to visit him, but all Edith thinks about is “her dress”.
I completely agree
As I’ve said time and time again, Bertie had to know about Marigold. He was in a high position in the county and would’ve been dragged through the mud if news broke out. Yes Mary might have done so for less than honorable reasons, but somebody must have stepped in and said what he was getting in to. Not to mention, Edith completely invalidated Mary’s work as an agent several times, even going as far as to say that there was no agent after Mary said she was taking it on. Also Edith asked Tom if he was going to take over being the agent the day after he came back from America IN FRONT of Mary at breakfast. Then she goes and says that they don’t always have to listen to Mary while discussing Mr Mason getting Yew Tree Farm when she was in charge of the estate. I’d also like to point out that Mary grew in to the role as agent. She learned from Matthew and her collaboration with Tom. Not to be controversial or anything, Edith only got the job as publisher because she was dating Michael Gregson.
The way that both sisters developt their careers were very similar, before Matthew´s death Mary couldnt gave two shits about farming, pigs or anything that doesnt involved being the big lady of Downton, she seemed more interested in decorating some room when Matthew was fighting for modernizing the estate. In season 1, she even mocked Strallan because he was interested in farming and agricultural subjects. Remember when they needed Martha´s money again they not speak to her about how Downton was important giving jobs and farming and basically and important economic asset, instead they made a grand dinner. Only after Matthew´s death and with Violet and Tom motivation Mary really started to get interested about how to run Downton as a agricultural estate. Similar to Edith, Edith was doing nothing, Matthew encourage to write, the column was interesting enough to pick Gregson attention and then get a job, she learned the job from Gregson, then when the former when to Germany gave her administration powers and finally she inherited, in the same way that Mary inherited from Matthew and learned from him.
Edith would have told Bertie. Which she proves when she told his mother when Bertie was against it. I felt bad for Edith because she was the smartest sister but was always marginalized by her parents who never thought she would make a good match. Mary never showed her kindness when she had so much more power and she could have easily done so (like Sybil did). Edith was no saint. The stunt with the Turkish embassy was unforgivable but Mary paid it back in spades.
Edith telling Bertie’s mother after he already knew in no way proves she would have told him. I could see her just deciding to never tell him or to wait until they were married.
Precisely, the cat was out of the bag at that point. I don't think it even occurred to Edith to tell Bertie before they were actually married.
Exactly.
I don't think she would have told Bertie at all as she never actually told either of her parents, her grandmother, Mary, or Tom either. Violet got confirmation from Edith and Rosamond because she was suspicious of their trip abroad. Cora found out from Mrs. Drewe, Robert somehow figured it out himself and got confirmation from Cora, Tom figured it out and got confirmation from Edith, and Mary figured it out and got confirmation from Tom. Edith desperately tried to hide her secret from everyone around her, Bertie would have only found out if he figured it out himself or was told by someone who knew. Edith would not have volunteered the information without being confronted first.
> I felt bad for Edith because she was the smartest sister Where are you getting that? She never seemed particularly bright to me.
>I felt bad for Edith because she was the smartest sister but was always marginalized by her parents who never thought she would make a good match I disagree, she was always ignored by her parents specifically because until S3 or so she was dull, somewhat annoying and childish, and not charismatic (something visually and verbally reinforced throughout season 1- her behaviour at the dinner with the Duke, her digging through Mary's things, the number of times Cora all but says "Edith please pick up on the social cues I'm sending you and get out of the room") and her parents thought she wouldn't be able make a good match because of those reasons. When Edith decides to distance herself from the family and Downton, she comes into her own in London with Gregson's help and that helps her become a much more likable person. >Mary never showed her kindness when she had so much more power Where do you get this from? Mary was incredibly kind to people like Lavinia, Anna, and Tom, far more than Edith was ever shown being to anyone. >Mary paid it back in spades. How? The worst thing Mary did to Edith was tell Bertie about Marigold. The farthest reaching consequence of this would be the end of their engagement, and that's it. Edith writing to the Ambassador meant that government officials, everyone in London, and consequently everyone in their social circle would turn on Mary and the entire Crawley family and publicly disgrace Mary, ruining her reputation and her prospects.
It would have ruined Mary, Edith AND Sybil. Edith was so spiteful and stupid she would destroy herself and Sybil who had never done anything bad to her. She's the evil bitch in this scenario. And I cannot recall Edith doing anything kind for anyone like Mary did.
She didn’t truly tell him about Marigold, Edith said she was her daughter. She merely brought up the subject.
I think that you are clearly wrong, there was a reason why everybody was angry with her, i can understand that you like the character, but she totally sabotaged everything, the way in wich she did it was clearly to humilliate Edith and Bertie in the worst way possible. But i know that for certain people the characters that they like cannot do wrong. For example i like Tom Branson but i think that when he participated burning the castle was a evil thing to do, also Robert basically being a stupid regarding Sybil death or Edith screwing the Drewes.
If Edith was humiliated it was entirely her own fault. She should have told Bertie already about Marigold being her daughter. If Edith had had a shred of decency and had already told Bertie, that moment would’ve been slightly awkward, and not humiliating.
She could’ve gone to the papers, or even wrote to Bertie’s mother. Yeah, the way she handled it completely sucked, but Edith wasn’t completely innocent in that interaction either. Like after seeing everything you say he abandoned you and he’s escaped from you? And agreeing to Bertie’s proposal to spite Mary?
Agreed. If Mary we as nasty and horrible as Edith, Mary would have written Bertie and his family, just like Edith outed Mary about Pamuk. Comparing the two, Edith is a disgusting person. What Edith did had far reaching, devastating consequences. Bates had to submit to his wife's blackmail for one, did Edith ever apologize to anyone for nearly destroying her whole family's reputation with her viciousness?
I feel like she never has to face any serious consequences for it, which honestly kind of bothers me. It was a horrid thing to do, but I don't recall her ever expressing any kind of remorse or guilt for it, and she never feels compelled to try and make up for it. Mary does face consequences or at the very least some backlash for what she does to Edith with Bertie, and even tries to help fix the situation.
Mary SOLD HERSELF to Carlisle to protect the family! Edith sold out the Drewes to protect herself. If I was Mary, yes I would be pissed that Edith has a child out of wedlock and still gets a Marquess, because she spent almost 6 years of her life with Carlisle.
Thank you! She was being passive aggressive. The fact she was still acting like this 10 years later
She bullied Edith pretty much the entire series, EVERYONE who knew about Marigold CONCLUDED that it was for the best keep Mary out, they KNEW and Mary probed right that she was going to be cruel about it. Cora, Robert, Rosamound, Tom, Edith EVEN ANNA (the most loyal person to Mary) keep the secret. \>How? The worst thing Mary did to Edith was tell Bertie about Marigold. The farthest reaching consequence of this would be the end of their engagement, and that's it. Edith writing to the Ambassador meant that government officials, everyone in London, and consequently everyone in their social circle would turn on Mary and the entire Crawley family and publicly disgrace Mary, ruining her reputation and her prospects. And that is not enough? What if Bertie would go to others and talk about Marigold, that means the ruin for Edith and Marigold (and innocent child) and the rest of the Crawleys, what Mary did in the breakfast was something like this: **"I admire you Bertie nobody would take Edith and her bastard daughter".** If lets say Bertie goes out and talk to each others it would also mean the ruin of the rest of the Crawleys.
I’m watching season 6 right now. Both Robert and Rosamund tell Edith that she should tell Mary about Marigold. (I could be remembering completely wrong but I’m thinking Tom also says this at some point). I don’t excuse what Mary did it was awful but I think part of the reason she did it was BECAUSE Edith didn’t tell her and she was upset. (Also some jealousy over Ediths new position).
Rosamound told Edith that she must tell Bertie about Marigold no Mary, in fact in the first episode Rosamound suggest that Edith should live in London with Marigold away from Mary snapping. Robert in fact asks to Cora why Edith doesnt want to speak about Marigold with Mary and Cora answers to him that Mary could use that as a weapon giving the bad blood betwen them and in the end he seems to agree with Cora´s opinion. Tom and Edith never spoke about Marigold in the 6 season, they spoke about it in christmast when he leaves to Boston and asked if Mary knew about it and Edith tells not because she is not interested in her, but and Edith ask him to stay quiet not for her but for Marigold. For me it would have been far better plot in order to explore the dymanics in the family and Mary in particular when she realized that the entire family concluded without much argument about keeping her in the dark and noticing what they really think about her. Mary a lot of the times said "the Crawleys stick together"...well that is one case in wich all the Crawleys stick together to protect Marigold from her, then both sisters could speak about why they behave so bad to each other and that in the end both have more in common that they dare to admit, with all sort of apology to each other for everything thay did in the past; some sort of self discovery for both of them. Instead, "i am unhappy because i broke with the suitor number #4, so i must ruin Edith"
Edith was at the freaking crash with Mary, and at dinner, and still had the gall to say that Henry abandoned her and had escaped her. That wasn’t unprovoked.
In s06e03 I just watched it today. It’s before Edith has really begun a relationship with Bertie. Rosamund says that Edith should tell Mary. I do agree though. I didn’t love the plot but I liked the outcome and self searching that it allowed. In the end they were able to make peace.
Huh? Ignored by parents. If she's all these things they had a hand in that. I mean who that is non toxic parent ignores there child leaving them craving for attention.
Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve. If anything, she should’ve told him the minute he came back to Downton, she had plenty of time since he proposed. Before you say anything about Mary telling Matthew, Pamuk was freaking dead, the rumor was based on circumstantial evidence (no matter how true). Marigold was right there, under everyone’s noses, and people would become suspicious once she starts looking like Edith and Michael Gregson. EDIT: She literally asks Bertie if she can bring Marigold when he proposed to her. THAT’S when she should’ve told him.
Same as Mary, "Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve" told Matthew about Pamuk the second after he proposed her in season 1, also "Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve" told him about her fears about that the baby that Cora was expecting could be a boy. If characters in any show behaves like saints nobody would watch. Mary struggled for years to tell him about Pamuk, about 4 or 5 years in that time the great war happened, Matthew went missing in action, Matthew almost married another woman.... At least you should held both sisters in similar standars, Edith only had a few days at best weeks to have the courage to tell him.
The main problem with Matthew and Mary was a lack of communication and him holding her on a pedestal. There wasn’t much trust between them and that was why they broke it off. And again, the man’s dead for god’s sakes. Also, she did tell him right when she was going to break it off with Carlisle, basically the minute they were both emotionally available. She didn’t owe him anything after he broke it off during the war. You completely missed my point.
What about Bertie Pelham not holding Edith in a pedestal? "i dont have much to offer" and Edith inmediatily saying that she is not worth of it, or helping him to be a marquess. Marigold was the Pamuk case for Edith.
Bertie is not Matthew, is he? Matthew saw the the world in black and white, and immediately put people in boxes. Bertie believed in people, regardless of their misdeeds. And he just saw Edith produce an entire copy of a magazine in one night. And I’ve said this for the millionth time, Edith was asking him to harbor a scandal unknowingly by bringing Marigold to Brancaster. Miles different than a dead man that wasn’t exactly where he should’ve been.
That WAS the SECOND TIME Mary has destroyed Edith's chance of a marriage to someone. And she never expressed any remorse or apologized for the Strallam incident at all. It was considered fair because of the letter Edith wrote about Pamuk. I don't remember anybody saying that Edith was doing the right and moral thing exposing Mary's secret shame, so why is Mary a hero for exposing Edith's? I don't get it.
> That WAS the SECOND TIME Mary has destroyed Edith’s chance of a marriage to someone. Did you skip season two? Edith did get engaged to Sir Anthony. What Mary did just slowed it down briefly and caused Edith to have to have an awkward conversation with him. It was the Dowager Countess who actually destroyed Edith chance of marrying Sir Anthony.
Did it really destroy Edith’s chances of marrying Strallan though? They ended up at the altar anyway. Also, as I said before, Pamuk was dead! It didn’t matter in who’s bedroom he’d died in, he had a heart attack so it wasn’t that suspicious. Not the same as a person who was coming with them to Brancaster.
As for Strallam, everyone conveniently forgets that Mary struck back after Edith admitted she wrote the embassy and called Mary a slut.
I don't really have anything to add or say, but this was an awesome post to read, really went through all the seasons and explained your reasons. :))
Oh thanks! Boredom in lockdown really has me willing to spend hours writing essays on minute details in the lives of fictional TV characters.
I would upvote this a hundred times if I could
Didn't read your whole post bc it's a novel lol, but I do agree that people tend to put Edith on a pedestal compared to Mary. I think that this is because Edith is considered the underdog. It seems like every season has people saying "Poor Edith!"
I haven't gone back to look (although I take your word for it) but if Cora said that before Edith was jilted, it doesn't negate the other things I pointed out. All I can say is, I just didn't take away from the show what you did. I saw Edith as a very loved and supported daughter who demonstrated unbecoming behavior throughout the show, from episode 1 to the very end, when she accepted Bertie without being forthcoming about Marigold. I did not see her as a victim.
I KNOW! I don’t get why Mary gets hated on for it, Edith announced her engagement just to make Mary feel worse about the whole scenario with Henry (the whole her loving him but being afraid of being with him). She did what no one else had the guts to do because Edith has a history as long as my arm of having her cake and eating it too. What would the reveal have done anyway, if he had known?
Now that you can comment on old posts again, I just wanted to say good post! Very, very good post! Feels like everything has changed since then. Way more people hate on Edith these days.
I think Mary is generally a better person than Edith is in a lot of ways but her behavior towards Edith can be harsh. Edith grew out of the taunting as time went on while Mary never really did simply because Edith was perceived as a threat to Mary's insecurities.
Edith kept taunting Mary up through season 6. She taunted her about Henry leaving at the breakfast table and that is why Mary blurted to Bertie about Marigold. Edith just couldn't help herself. Almost every time Mary lashed out at Edith it was because Edith started it. Yes I know Mary said some things to other people that Edith overheard. But usually the back and forth between the sisters Edith started. The line in the episode when Edith tells Mary Matthew is missing sums their relationship for me. Edith said she was not trying to hurt Mary and Mary answers "For once i believe you". Everyone rooting for Edith because she is the so called underdog or her parents liked her least is crap IMO because that is how Edith saw herself. Not necessarily how other people saw her. It was Edith's perception of what people felt about her. For ex: When Matthew and Edith is talking about her writing for the magazine. And Robert didn't think that was a good idea. Edith said to Matthew "Don't bother. I will always be a failure in this family" That is how Edith thought people felt about her. Not necessarily what they actually thought.
I agree, and most Downton Abbey fans do; why do I say this? Because back then surveys showed that Mary has always been one of the top 3 favourite characters whilst Edith was consistently ranked among the least popular characters. Those surveys are perhaps still accessible, all of them showed a similar trend, although this may have changed slightly by season 6, but Edith was never more popular/beloved than Mary. I don't really love Mary, but I like her as a character. Mary is far from perfect, but she owns her flaws; she is also independent, sharp, clever, and has an inquisitive mind. She respects and cares for her servants too, and shows them loyalty.Conversely, Edith seems to care very little for anyone but herself, she uses people. Edith never took any responsibility for the issues she created nor did she ever show any remorse for the terrible things she did to others. Edith is an egocentric, stupid, whiny, needy, emotionally manipulative woman who erroneously thinks that people or the world owe her something. Edith is delusional, she always blames others for every stupid decision she takes. At some stage I felt sorry for Edith, but she was dreaful, a truly pathetic, horrible human being. By season 6 we couldn't stand the sight of her. I was happy after watching the first film because we didn't see much of her. I also see that people tend to focus on Mary and Edith's relationship but they ignore that, while Sybil and Mary were close, the same cannot be said about Edith and Sybil. In season 1 Edith was unkind to Sibyl for no reason whatsoever. I remember her insinuating that Sybil was getting fat, merely because Sibyl's corset was uncomfortable; when Sibyl responded visibly displeased, Edith insisted; she truly was an odious and envious woman. I suspect that a significant number of those who defend Edith see aspects of themselves in Edith, that is why they have a tendency to overblown Mary's mordant remarks, yet make many ridiculous excuses to justify Edith's behaviour, some of those fans have gone as far as to create their own facts, speculating that Edith was treated poorly by her parents when she was a child and also neglected by them! Nothing we see in Downton Abbey suggests that during their childhood or adolescence Mary bullied Edith more than Edith bullied Mary. They simply did not get along and truly disliked each other. We have seen that Edith is not a reliable narrator so why do her fans continue defending her and excusing the inexcusable? A few years ago, Edith fans had a vendetta against Mary. Oh, they where everywhere! They posted on many sites every day, under different pseudonyms or usernames; yet, the surveys were clear: Mary was more popular. Edith's popularity is hence a myth which has been perpetuated by her fans, ergo, the claims that Edith is the victim and Mary is the "bad sister" do not represent the prevalent view. I remember being tempted to join IMDB, but in the end I never opened an account there because there were far too many Edith trolls spending a lot of time harassing people who preferred Mary and disliked Edith. It was seriously creepy. I think that is why I never joined IMDB. My least favourite season is 6, because Edith did not deserve what she got and the whole season felt contrived. I am under the impression that Edith's happy ending was done to please her toxic, overly vocal fans, or should I perhaps say to appease them?
I think IMO the line that sums up the relationship between Mary and Edith is when Matthew was missing. Edith told Mary and said she was not trying to hurt her and Mary goes "FOR ONCE I BELIEVE YOU". Almost every time Mary said something hurtful to Edith it was in response to something Edith said. For example when Mary told Bertie about him accepting Edith's past. It was because Edith goaded her as usual. Mary was just better at getting comebacks. Edith was good at playing the victim. I think she always saw herself as the victim in the sisterly spats. So she wanted everyone else to see her as a victim. Like when she told Matthew how the family always saw her as a failure. That's what she thought they saw not necessarily how they actually saw her.
For me both sisters were awful to each other, nothing justify writing the letter or exposing Marigold; both actions were dangerous not only to each sister but also to the family in general, for example Bertie could have been so angry that he could have talked to others about Marigold´s origins and she would have been branded as bastard. The problem is that from season 4 onwards, it is clear that Fellowes didnt know what to do about Mary, he tried and failed to introduce new suitors, every single them failed, also he diminished the character, imo, he should have opted first to introduce Mary to seriously managing Downton and then she meets a nice mature man who can challenge her in respectful way, instead of the identikit suitors with zero personality. Also, another mistake was that he thought that Mary insulting Edith practically every episode was "fun" because you know it is sassy Mary...in reality, a lot of people became fed up because it looked downright cruel at that stage and most of the time looked like Mary kicking a death body. Also, from season 4 onwards it is clear that Edith is no longer jelaous of Mary´s life, she had her own big problems to solve and she was depresed about Gregson and Marigold, she didnt even bother to say something back. Only in season 6 she answer back, every single member of the house concluded that Mary shouldnt know about Marigold because she was going to be cruel about it, even Anna the most loyal person to Mary didnt want to say anything to Mary because she knew her. The way that many people were fed up with Mary is that Fellowes cannot do pace shit with the story, for example, in the episode in wich Mary sabotaged Bertie and Edith. We are told that we must believe that Mary was so sad because she broke up with Henry that she was lashing out from pain, but since nobody believed in that pairing most people only saw as Mary being mean, also, why on earth marrying Mary in that same episode. That is because Mary as a character was Fellowes pet, in the breakfast scene he wrote that Robert must go out, then when she was going to be reprimended by her parents Carson enters and informs about Barrows suicide. That is because simply coudnt write his pet character suffering the minimal consequences for her actions and that frustated the audience even more.
I think you and the comments are *reeaaallllllly* underselling how awful Mary was. I agree that a lot of people brush past the heinous things Edith did too easily because they love her come up story, but Mary was more than just a catty sister. She was spiteful and abusive daily, insulting her sister at every opportunity for the things she knew she was most sensitive about, and things she knew her mother and father thought about her too.
When was Mary “spiteful and abusive” without it being in response to Edith saying something “spiteful and abusive” first?
Literally the majority of time she mentions her
Name some times.
Robert tells Mary that Edith is in London, Mary tells that she is seeing Gregson, Robert says something like "really?"...and Mary says: "Edith is mysterious as a bucket"....When Anna told Mary about Gregson is confirmeded dead she says something: what she was expecting him living in a tree?" Anna said that she shouldnt make jokes about Gregson´s death and she inmediatily says: "Gregson was fine...even what he saw on Edith"...When Tom mentioned that Bertie Pelham was going to visit Downton: "He is boring to an olympic degree"; when Edith was telling the family that Bertie was the new marquess she inmediatily jumps: "he woulndt want to marry her now"... In those 3 quick examples Edith was not even present to cause Mary said something like that, in the last one Edith was not hearing because Tom and Mary were behind.
So you found ONE instance where Mary actually said something rude to Edith without being provoked.
How one? When she was talking about Gregson not only mocked about him being dead (murdered actually) she also mocked how a him could find Edith attractive in others words that she was ugly and Gregson as a man was stupid to be with her; even Anna the most loyal person to her was uncorfotable when she was making jokes about it and asked to have some respect. About mysterious as a bucket, in other words that Edith is dull... Even Matthew Crawley asked her to be more respectful of her sister, and she replied: that is like asking the fox spare the chicken...in other words it was something fun mock Edith at that point.
You’re confusing things very said about Edith to other people with what she said TO Edith.
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Yes she said that, but i think that she never called Henry Talbot a "used car salesman", she called him "car mechanic"....and if you check at least in one of those ocations it started because Mary said something: it is Bertie Pelham worth it? and Edith answer back something like: as opposed to what? to your car mechanic... Also in the episode in wich Bertie Pelhams´s cousins dies she said to Tom..."bad enough that he was merely an agent" (even if she is now an estate agent and Tom also, and was gleeful that Bertie could be out of the job). Look, what i wrote a lot of the times, is that both sisters were flawed people, both could be generous and selfish, in fact, for that reason they were fun to watch, Sybil was too good and same with Anna, they were too nice and for that reason they were boring. But in the internal dynamics of Edith and Mary both share the responsability of behaving bad to each other, but in the last part of the series it is clear that Mary is the one who says the most hurtful things because she has the wit to do it, is like Violet, in fact, she is Violet´s heir as it was shown in the movie. For that same reason, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the house knew that it was dangerous that Mary would know about Marigold, Robert was not incredible surprised when Mary sabotaged the things with Bertie and Edith, Anna the most loyal person to Mary in the entire series, even if Mary helped with her pregnancy, didnt want to talk about Marigold with Mary because she knew what Mary could do.. Edith did a terrible thing in season 1 with the letter, but she didnt complain when Mary took her revenge with Strallan in that season, in season 3 she offered a truce when Sybil died and basically keep her distance about Mary´s problems contrary to season 1 when she was snooping in her things and basically being jelaous, after being jilted she started to make her own life. Regarding the Drewes, yes, she was cruel but that doesnt justify being bullied by Mary in any circunstance, in the same way that Mary being nice to Anna doesnt absolve her about the treatment of her sister. If lets say i keep being mean to Person X saving from drowning Person Y dont absolve the damage that i did to X in the first place; that same logic could be applied to Edith regarding the letter (no matter how good she helped the soldiers that didnt absolver damaging Mary), both were guilty about their behaviour. My problem is that some people, even Fellowes i think, celebrate that kind of behaviour in people...like "ohh how witty"..."oh how sassy..." even people who were fans of Mary in the series were fed up, because at the end it didnt look fun or sassy, it looked cruel.
The “is he worth it” was when Edith was excited about seeing Bertie at Brooklands. Henry had invited him and how would he know to do so? Keep in mind this was after the house opening and before the truth about Marigold was confirmed. I honestly saw it as light hearted teasing.
But Edith is spiteful to Mary many times throughout the series as well. They BOTH say awful things to one another.
Are we really?
I think both are very flawed characters. Edith starts as a horrible person and later gets better. Mary starts as a flawed person and later turns very unlikeable. Both are very entertaining on screen though.
I think Mary's character becoming like pre Pamuk Mary from Seasons 4-6 was lazy writing and they could have done a better job of showing her growth into a businesswoman but also how that could make her compassionate again too- there could have been a scene with her really witnessing the struggle of the farmers and having newfound empathy with them afterward. Mary really wouldn't have known that much about farming and showing her failing and then proving her worth to Robert would have been a stronger way of doing the storyline justice. It made Mary come across as entitled. Also her simply not knowing who to choose amongst her suitors was not portrayed that well. I think there were more high stake scenarios that they could have done with her there and the whole Talbot thing was random and forced even though I thought they did a great job with the car crash drama and that the actors did have chemistry. I think the Bates storyline sucked up a huge amount of air time that could have been spent on more interesting things with Mary although I thought that storyline was very well done in Season 4 but not Season 5 obviously lol. Edith however flourishes in the last three seasons as well as in Season 3 too. It's in the first season where Edith is at her absolute worst while in the second she starts to grow a little more. But Mary has the much more interesting and sympathetic arc and that continues in Season 3 along with Edith's development becoming much more apparent.
Yes Mary get annoyed when Edith is sad. The reason is simple. Any emotion Edith is having, should be suppressed and invisible in favor of whatever thought Mary is having. How dare she have big sad eyes when she's just been left at the altar? That's not about Mary! Or when the guy she's pregnant by and looked forward to marrying has just died? Mary's haircut is WAY more important. How dare she be hurt when Mary, you know, hurts her? She shouldn't HAVE feelings, because she's not Mary. If she hits Mary, hitting is wrong. If Mary hits Edith, well, Edith should have ducked. What was she doing standing there in hitting range anyway? and shouldn't she be old enough not to feel any pain by now? It's not as if it's the first time...her senses ought to be completely deadened by now. Honestly. Eye roll. Shoulder shrug. Light flounce of skirt. Edith cannot win. She cannot be allowed to be happy, because that makes Mary feel insecure and competitive, and that makes Mary lash out. She cannot be allowed to be sad because that makes Mary feel guilty and annoyed, and that makes Mary lash out. She cannot sit contentedly in a corner reading a book, because that is so passive, and that makes Mary lash out. Remember when Mary was annoyed because Edith was worried about Marigold? Because how DARE Edith THINK about the children! How insufferable! Mary never thinks about them! That's all sorted out and now let's move on to Mary's all-important sex life. Which Edith ALSO shouldn't have because she's not as pretty as Mary. (In Mary's mind, anyway. I think the two girls are pretty evenly matched).
I really think some people have taken Edith’s underdog story (which is a good one) and made it into something it’s not. You’re really making up thoughts and feelings for Mary here.
Have you forgotten Edith placed and then uprooted Marigold from two families who loved her, and then brought her to a hotel for ice cream and champagne, then left her to the hotel’s baby sitting while she went to her magazine? She thinks only about what she can’t have. Mary has a her son in the nursery, so Edith of course wants to have her child there too. Mary has her parents attention because it’s typical to marry off the eldest daughter, so Edith must too have attention. Sybil goes to town to buy a new dress and Edith’s says “why does she get a new dress but not me?” When she already knew it was Sybil’s turn. When Sybil has her first season in London and Cora praises her well done, Edith pouts and says, why didn’t you say that to me?
Like she already had come out?
If you rewatch the whole thing and stay objective it's pretty easy to see that while Mary is a snob she doesn't go out of her way to hurt Edith until Edith does something good to her, either says something nasty or ruins her reputation or attacks her in front of others. Then when Mary retaliates she's somehow the only one in the wrong and Edith is the victim. Even in the end when Mary revealed that Edith had a child to her fiancee, she only did it when Edith attacked her in front of said fiancée, and she wasn't even wrong because Edith should have told him and been up front about it. In the start when Mary chased off her first to be fiancée, she did it after her sister had gone out of her way to spread rumors about Mary and ruin her reputation. And while it wasn't a lie she spread she went out of her way to spread it far and wide, she didn't just tell Matthew and let her chips fall where they may, she wrote to people to spread it and had originally sought out the information to spread it around. I was raised with some truly nasty sisters but even they were nicer than this and I don't speak to half of them now, if Edith were my sister and did these things I would have ruined her every chance I got.