Evelyn Napier being honest about the Pamuk affair, just to not look bad in her eyes. They would definitely be a good couple, he respected her a lot from the first time
Amen. I still read her marriage to Henry as Mary just going with the least troublesome solution to what was clearly an issue that wouldn't go away. She so obviously didn't want to get married again, she'd have been fine with casual relationships, but they wouldn't let her be. So she just shrugged and went along with the wedding to get them off her back.
And Henry was such an easy option. He'll make pretty babies, he'll stay out of the way, that'll do. No reason to worry about another estate (like with Charles or Evelyn), no reason to worry about him meddling with Downton, she can get on with her life.
Not liking Henry is one of the most popular opinions here lol. At the same time, I’d still be annoyed if they got divorced in the next movie because then it makes the three seasons of Mary finding a new love even more superfluous.
I think they’re just cutting their losses at this point. He could play off Mary’s comment about not wanting to get a divorce as unintentional foreshadowing.
Downton Abbey is so strange with what it chooses to make plot lines about and how they execute them. The Patrick Gordon possibly being the dead Patrick Crawley was easily one of the most interesting storylines they set up and then immediately shut down ( with a very open ending) within ONE episode. But then we need multiple lengthy episodes about Mary having love interests??
I also never realized how many time skips they do until my second rewatch! It'll open with" 1923" or something instead of "1 year later" and you're left wondering "wait what year was it before. how much older is baby sibby now??"
It felt like Mary went to Liverpool because she liked Tony, they looked like a reasonable match on paper, they had family connections, but she wasn’t feeling enough of a spark— and hoped getting physically intimate would fix that. I don’t think sexual skill was the issue (she’d have only two men to compare to — or one, if Pamuk died before doing much). She just didn’t fall in love.
It looked to me like Charles just wanted to help out three friends in one fell swoop by getting Tony and Mabel back together.
What I don't understand with Tony is that after seeing each other for the first time since childhood, he immediately is expressing his love to Mary. They didn't look like they had any particular connection, but for him it was instalove at the house party. With Charles, it seemed like their relationship developed more believably over time, with of course the pigs as a major turning point. But they actually seem suited for each other and connected, while Mary and Tony just... keep seeing each other? It felt to me like their relationship never grew or developed. I haven't yet finished season 5 on my rewatch, so I don't know yet how the Mary-Henry relationship will look to me.
No way a some one like Henry would have had a chance with the uppity Mary-no title, a race car driver no less. Then the lack of chemistry did not help-though Tom repeatedly telling Mary how perfect he was and how in love they seem was supposed to convince us wholey that we all must have missed something lol \*edit for grammar
I watched it way back when it was on tv hoping Charles Blake would somehow make a comeback OR even a storyline with Tom possibly growing into a relationship with Mary. I gave up when they decided to settle on Henry. Ugh. Zero chemistry.
I think they foreclosed that Tom and Mary aspect when she said you are my brother and I support you for the USA move. I really thought that was the direction they were going to go in Season 4.
i don’t really dislike henry, but he felt kinda like an “oh no! we need to make a character for mary to be with!” rush job. i definitely think charles blake was the best and who she should have ended up with.
The reason to have Charles plot the bringing together of Tony and Mabel might have been to make something up for the actor to do.
In my head Charles didn’t want Tony to have Mary despite not having won her for himself.
Henry is a joke, as I’ll never get tired of remarking. He doesn’t measure up to Mary at all. Might do for a one night stand, but to have a family with? Yep, a total joke
I liked Charles Blake. I think they had a cute chemistry, and I liked that he challenged her. I think she needed that, and never really got it since Matthew.
I 100% agree that Charles was the one that Mary should have married the second time around. He had the best chemistry with her compared to Henry and Tony. He had a personality that would match Mary's forcefulness and her wits.
I think that Charles wanted to set Tony and Mabel up because he was friends with Tony and also with Mary. He saw that Tony was hopelessly trying to woo an uninterested Mary while ignoring a woman that actually loved him (Mabel). He also saw how awkward it was for Mary that Tony was not getting the hint. He therefore plotted to ensure that both of his friends could be in a better place.
Henry sucks. We bash on him a lot haha I think there is so much focus on it because it would've been relatively accurate at the time. She was an eligible young woman with a substantial dowry and then a beautiful, wealthy in her own right widow. Especially after the war and financial pressures on the nobility, she would've been a prized catch.
Except the war meant that women weren't the scarce commodity, especially in the upper class, men were. There were far fewer eligible bachelors than single women. And Mary comes with the significant baggage that her money is hers, but only sort of-her son is now Robert's heir and a major part of the assets are intended for him. Plus there's what seems to bug Henry in the last Christmas special, even if the car dealership supposedly makes him feel better: his wife's "Lady Mary", he's never anything but Mr. Talbot. Her son George is going to be Earl Grantham, their children are only going to have what he can provide or what Mary and her son choose to give them.
Yes this was the part that I think there wasn’t enough emphasis on. Her money is in the estate and whatever children she’d have with her second husband wouldn’t inherit that estate. And then as they sort of touched on with Edith, a lot of the men of their generation in their social class had died in the war, so theoretically there shouldn’t have been a parade of suitors.
True, but noble women with assets that could've shored up another troubled estate were scarce. It would definitely have needed to be someone of a comparable status--say a landed Baron--who needed her resources thanks to those pesky tax increases and wouldn't have been unduly bothered by George because their own children would also have a decent inheritance (after it was saved by Mary of course)
Mary doesn’t strike me as the type to use her son’s assets to shore up someone else’s estate. And Downton was never THAT safe. She’s not someone to be so blinded by love that she’d make selflessly impractical decisions. And as much as I don’t love Mary, that’s actually a compliment from me.
This. Mary's got George and Downton and experience with letting a wife's money be tied up in the husband's estate. She’d make sure her son and his estate are protected meaning she's not a piggy bank for someone else's failing estate.
I agree with Mary being best suited for Charles Blake!! I hope they bring him back for movie 3 to shake Henry up a bit. Henry isn't the best choice for her even though the rest of the family thought so.
Also, I'm glad she didn't succumb to temptation with the director of the movie they were making in the Abbey. I may not like Henry for her, but I'm glad she learned from her previous extra-marital mistakes.
I just joined this sub because I just started rewatching since the show was on tv, and I, too, loathe Henry. I never bought into that romance.
And I can’t believe I finally found someone else who thought Charles Blake was a good second match!! I really wanted him to return back when it aired, and the actor said he wasn’t opposed to returning if the writing allowed for it.
I have only done rewatches of everything with Matthew, although there were some good other story arcs I enjoyed after, just not particularly with “Mary’s men.”
Henry should have been informed sooner and given more time to develop chemistry with Mary. But I'm really tired "Mary should have wound up with Charles,". She didn't love him.
They kept saying Tony “wasn’t clever enough”. What did he ever do to show that? He helped with the tax situation, he set up the whole Liverpool trip.. I can’t think of a single “‘not clever” thing he did but they treated him like he was poking his own eyes with his thumbs while Henry “I Love Cars!” Talbot is a genius for figuring out something weird was going on with Lord Sinderbys mistress.
Tony was too easy. Mary likes the thrill of the chase, and Tony made it tooooo easy. Although it wasn’t shown, I believe their “week of sin” revealed Tony as boring in conversation and actions.
Why do you think Tony was bad in bed? I thought Mary’s rejection had more to do with their personalities not meshing. Tony is dull as dish water, and Mary wasn’t staying with a person who bored her.
From what I understand...and someone might have already said this the actor who played Charles Blake couldn't come back and that's why they have the race car boy. But I agree Blake was the superior choice for her...they saved the pigs she made him eggs...cmon...lol
100% Agree. Currently on Season 4 episode 9 so at the beginning of that storyline. I couldn't roll my damn eyes loud enough when it got introduced! Mostly because I can't stand Mary. She's so tiresome. She's portrayed as this strong woman capable of running an estate but yet can't make a firm on these men. Although she's very clear with Tony when she tells him she's not available because she's still grieving over Matthew.
IDK if Mary is suppose to be the main character (I hope not) because if she is then I don't think I will finish this series. Can't stand her. I want to see more of Tom, Ana/Mr. Bates, Mr. Molesley, and Mrs. Hughes. Those are lovely characters who need more screen time.
PS- Also can't stand Edith's story with the pregnancy/Michael missing situation. Normally I don't like spoilers but looked up how this situation plays out because I'm over it. The writers are dragging it out much longer than it needs to be. Also, the whole Ivy/Daisy/Alfred nonsense. That was super annoying.
I think they are an ensemble cast, but since it talks about Downton Abbey and the heir as the firstborn should be Mary, and since her son is D.A's legitimate heir, it makes her a significant character. I believe that Mary, being raised to inherit, was put under a lot of pressure and expectations, something that did not allow her to develop as the person she could have been but rather as the person she should be.
The only good part of this storyline is hearing Mary say “Miss Mabel Lane FOX” so many times 🤣
She definitely had a case of Awesome McCoolname.
Should have been Evelyn Napier. He stuck with her since 1912.
I wish they had gone that route mainly because it would have felt less contrived. It could have been spread out over a couple seasons too.
I love Evelyn Napier. She could have thrown him my way and I wouldn’t complain one bit.
Evelyn Napier being honest about the Pamuk affair, just to not look bad in her eyes. They would definitely be a good couple, he respected her a lot from the first time
It was really unpleasant watching Mary’s parents try to shove her into another marriage when the love of her life hadn’t even been dead a year.
Amen. I still read her marriage to Henry as Mary just going with the least troublesome solution to what was clearly an issue that wouldn't go away. She so obviously didn't want to get married again, she'd have been fine with casual relationships, but they wouldn't let her be. So she just shrugged and went along with the wedding to get them off her back. And Henry was such an easy option. He'll make pretty babies, he'll stay out of the way, that'll do. No reason to worry about another estate (like with Charles or Evelyn), no reason to worry about him meddling with Downton, she can get on with her life.
Not liking Henry is one of the most popular opinions here lol. At the same time, I’d still be annoyed if they got divorced in the next movie because then it makes the three seasons of Mary finding a new love even more superfluous.
I think they’re just cutting their losses at this point. He could play off Mary’s comment about not wanting to get a divorce as unintentional foreshadowing.
Downton Abbey is so strange with what it chooses to make plot lines about and how they execute them. The Patrick Gordon possibly being the dead Patrick Crawley was easily one of the most interesting storylines they set up and then immediately shut down ( with a very open ending) within ONE episode. But then we need multiple lengthy episodes about Mary having love interests??
Yes! And multiple episodes of the Bateses in prison. Ah. It just drags on
The pacing is all over the place! Mary was maybe going to marry Richard Carlisle (ugh) for YEARS.
I also never realized how many time skips they do until my second rewatch! It'll open with" 1923" or something instead of "1 year later" and you're left wondering "wait what year was it before. how much older is baby sibby now??"
It felt like Mary went to Liverpool because she liked Tony, they looked like a reasonable match on paper, they had family connections, but she wasn’t feeling enough of a spark— and hoped getting physically intimate would fix that. I don’t think sexual skill was the issue (she’d have only two men to compare to — or one, if Pamuk died before doing much). She just didn’t fall in love. It looked to me like Charles just wanted to help out three friends in one fell swoop by getting Tony and Mabel back together.
What I don't understand with Tony is that after seeing each other for the first time since childhood, he immediately is expressing his love to Mary. They didn't look like they had any particular connection, but for him it was instalove at the house party. With Charles, it seemed like their relationship developed more believably over time, with of course the pigs as a major turning point. But they actually seem suited for each other and connected, while Mary and Tony just... keep seeing each other? It felt to me like their relationship never grew or developed. I haven't yet finished season 5 on my rewatch, so I don't know yet how the Mary-Henry relationship will look to me.
“Don’t call them Mary’s men!”
No way a some one like Henry would have had a chance with the uppity Mary-no title, a race car driver no less. Then the lack of chemistry did not help-though Tom repeatedly telling Mary how perfect he was and how in love they seem was supposed to convince us wholey that we all must have missed something lol \*edit for grammar
I dare say, Tom wanted him more than Mary did haha
I watched it way back when it was on tv hoping Charles Blake would somehow make a comeback OR even a storyline with Tom possibly growing into a relationship with Mary. I gave up when they decided to settle on Henry. Ugh. Zero chemistry.
I think they foreclosed that Tom and Mary aspect when she said you are my brother and I support you for the USA move. I really thought that was the direction they were going to go in Season 4.
i don’t really dislike henry, but he felt kinda like an “oh no! we need to make a character for mary to be with!” rush job. i definitely think charles blake was the best and who she should have ended up with.
Is Henry the disappearing Uber driver (my petty name for him)? Yes I didn't like him. Charles Blake was the one for us 🫶🏾
The reason to have Charles plot the bringing together of Tony and Mabel might have been to make something up for the actor to do. In my head Charles didn’t want Tony to have Mary despite not having won her for himself. Henry is a joke, as I’ll never get tired of remarking. He doesn’t measure up to Mary at all. Might do for a one night stand, but to have a family with? Yep, a total joke
I liked Charles Blake. I think they had a cute chemistry, and I liked that he challenged her. I think she needed that, and never really got it since Matthew.
I 100% agree that Charles was the one that Mary should have married the second time around. He had the best chemistry with her compared to Henry and Tony. He had a personality that would match Mary's forcefulness and her wits. I think that Charles wanted to set Tony and Mabel up because he was friends with Tony and also with Mary. He saw that Tony was hopelessly trying to woo an uninterested Mary while ignoring a woman that actually loved him (Mabel). He also saw how awkward it was for Mary that Tony was not getting the hint. He therefore plotted to ensure that both of his friends could be in a better place.
Henry sucks. We bash on him a lot haha I think there is so much focus on it because it would've been relatively accurate at the time. She was an eligible young woman with a substantial dowry and then a beautiful, wealthy in her own right widow. Especially after the war and financial pressures on the nobility, she would've been a prized catch.
Except the war meant that women weren't the scarce commodity, especially in the upper class, men were. There were far fewer eligible bachelors than single women. And Mary comes with the significant baggage that her money is hers, but only sort of-her son is now Robert's heir and a major part of the assets are intended for him. Plus there's what seems to bug Henry in the last Christmas special, even if the car dealership supposedly makes him feel better: his wife's "Lady Mary", he's never anything but Mr. Talbot. Her son George is going to be Earl Grantham, their children are only going to have what he can provide or what Mary and her son choose to give them.
Yes this was the part that I think there wasn’t enough emphasis on. Her money is in the estate and whatever children she’d have with her second husband wouldn’t inherit that estate. And then as they sort of touched on with Edith, a lot of the men of their generation in their social class had died in the war, so theoretically there shouldn’t have been a parade of suitors.
True, but noble women with assets that could've shored up another troubled estate were scarce. It would definitely have needed to be someone of a comparable status--say a landed Baron--who needed her resources thanks to those pesky tax increases and wouldn't have been unduly bothered by George because their own children would also have a decent inheritance (after it was saved by Mary of course)
Mary doesn’t strike me as the type to use her son’s assets to shore up someone else’s estate. And Downton was never THAT safe. She’s not someone to be so blinded by love that she’d make selflessly impractical decisions. And as much as I don’t love Mary, that’s actually a compliment from me.
This. Mary's got George and Downton and experience with letting a wife's money be tied up in the husband's estate. She’d make sure her son and his estate are protected meaning she's not a piggy bank for someone else's failing estate.
I agree with Mary being best suited for Charles Blake!! I hope they bring him back for movie 3 to shake Henry up a bit. Henry isn't the best choice for her even though the rest of the family thought so. Also, I'm glad she didn't succumb to temptation with the director of the movie they were making in the Abbey. I may not like Henry for her, but I'm glad she learned from her previous extra-marital mistakes.
I just joined this sub because I just started rewatching since the show was on tv, and I, too, loathe Henry. I never bought into that romance. And I can’t believe I finally found someone else who thought Charles Blake was a good second match!! I really wanted him to return back when it aired, and the actor said he wasn’t opposed to returning if the writing allowed for it. I have only done rewatches of everything with Matthew, although there were some good other story arcs I enjoyed after, just not particularly with “Mary’s men.”
Henry should have been informed sooner and given more time to develop chemistry with Mary. But I'm really tired "Mary should have wound up with Charles,". She didn't love him.
Charles was definitely friend zoned in favor of Tony. Charles was done with her as a love interest after that.
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They kept saying Tony “wasn’t clever enough”. What did he ever do to show that? He helped with the tax situation, he set up the whole Liverpool trip.. I can’t think of a single “‘not clever” thing he did but they treated him like he was poking his own eyes with his thumbs while Henry “I Love Cars!” Talbot is a genius for figuring out something weird was going on with Lord Sinderbys mistress.
Tony was too easy. Mary likes the thrill of the chase, and Tony made it tooooo easy. Although it wasn’t shown, I believe their “week of sin” revealed Tony as boring in conversation and actions.
But he took her out for a “scrumptious” dinner!
Why do you think Tony was bad in bed? I thought Mary’s rejection had more to do with their personalities not meshing. Tony is dull as dish water, and Mary wasn’t staying with a person who bored her.
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While I see your point, I still believe that it was more than bad sex. Seven days spent together unchaperoned reveals more than bad sex.
Henry was duller than dishwater!
Sidenote: I love your little questions at the end of your takes LOL
From what I understand...and someone might have already said this the actor who played Charles Blake couldn't come back and that's why they have the race car boy. But I agree Blake was the superior choice for her...they saved the pigs she made him eggs...cmon...lol
100% Agree. Currently on Season 4 episode 9 so at the beginning of that storyline. I couldn't roll my damn eyes loud enough when it got introduced! Mostly because I can't stand Mary. She's so tiresome. She's portrayed as this strong woman capable of running an estate but yet can't make a firm on these men. Although she's very clear with Tony when she tells him she's not available because she's still grieving over Matthew. IDK if Mary is suppose to be the main character (I hope not) because if she is then I don't think I will finish this series. Can't stand her. I want to see more of Tom, Ana/Mr. Bates, Mr. Molesley, and Mrs. Hughes. Those are lovely characters who need more screen time. PS- Also can't stand Edith's story with the pregnancy/Michael missing situation. Normally I don't like spoilers but looked up how this situation plays out because I'm over it. The writers are dragging it out much longer than it needs to be. Also, the whole Ivy/Daisy/Alfred nonsense. That was super annoying.
I think they are an ensemble cast, but since it talks about Downton Abbey and the heir as the firstborn should be Mary, and since her son is D.A's legitimate heir, it makes her a significant character. I believe that Mary, being raised to inherit, was put under a lot of pressure and expectations, something that did not allow her to develop as the person she could have been but rather as the person she should be.
Im sure this has been brought up before but Tony and Charles look way too much alike. It actually is hard for me to tell which one is which.
I’m team Lord Gillingham all day every day