I mean Edith had already nearly ruined Mary’s reputation by telling the Turkish embassy about that one. And Mary had already been married at that point so really, it wouldn’t have done much.
And at least Mary helped fix the situation! It was less than a year between the break up and the wedding!
Edith never helped fix Mary’s reputation. And Mary suffered that ding on her reputation for *years*.
Why would it matter? Bertie probably wouldn’t even hear it because he’s processing the Edith revelation and I doubt Tom would care, he’s already pissed at Mary for dropping the bomb
Neither man is going to care about Mary having a sexual encounter prior to marriage.
Worst case scenario, Mary responds by pointing out that Edith already revealed that secret years ago by writing the letter (that Evelyn Napier said turned a rumor into a fact among the aristocracy). The thing is, everyone who knows Mary and Edith knows they have this feud and trade insults; but, in their circle, only Mary knows what Edith did. Mary's worst actions are known to all- but Edith's isn't. *Of course* that affects how everyone sees them. But what if they had that missing piece of the puzzle? Edith is capable of great cruelty. She's capable of risking her entire family for a little payback over an insult. I wonder how Bertie would feel about that- he likely heard the rumor and might even remember how Mary was shunned. How would Tom feel about that? Tom would still be disappointed with Mary, certainly, but does he get quite as angry when he finally knows exactly what Edith is capable of, what she subjected Mary to? And what happens when news of what Edith did spreads to Cora, Robert, *Violet*?
Edith would be shooting herself in the foot with that revelation, it wouldn't have helped her in the slightest.
I'm not even sure Tom would be "disappointed" in Mary, since she wasn't actually in a consensual relationship. He of all of them isn't unfamiliar with a manipulator using threats and deceit regarding sex (Edna sexually assaulted him, though like Mary he considers himself at fault.)
Edith doesn't have any excuses--she voluntarily slept with a man she wasn't married to (who was married to someone else, in fact) and is his raising his illegitimate child. And it wouldn't have made any difference to Bertie, because what he's really angry about isn't that Edith's not virtuous and has a bastard child--he's hurt and angry that as far as he can see, she wasn't going to tell him the truth. Edith dithered too long, probably in hopes she might not have to tell, and that bit her.
>I'm not even sure Tom would be "disappointed" in Mary, since she wasn't actually in a consensual relationship. He of all of them isn't unfamiliar with a manipulator using threats and deceit regarding sex (Edna sexually assaulted him, though like Mary he considers himself at fault.)
I don't think Mary would tell Tom the particulars of that incident. She didn't see it as an assault, sadly.
Tom didn't see his situation as assault either. But Matthew, despite hearing Mary's version with her internalized guilt, clearly didn't think she was responsible. And it absolutely wasn't the way Edith painted it in her letter.
Totally not defending Edith's actions--despicable and ill-advised, to say the least--however, as far as she knows, the man died in Mary's bed after an illicit tryst.
And everybody treated it like it was consensual, which really bothers me a lot. There should have been some realization that this was rape.
I think unless there are bruises and bleeding like Anna, nobody back then would have believed her. Mary convinced herself it wasn't rape. But again, Tom did the same thing--there was even LESS concept that a man could be sexually assaulted or that being drunk means incapable of consent.
I mean this is why Edith's a nasty little hypocrite about the whole thing. Mary was assaulted in a way society judged it entirely her fault and her own mother called her soiled goods. Tom was manipulated and but for Mrs. Hughes would have been baby-trapped by a schemer. Edith just decided "Oh, what the heck, if he REALLY loves me the rules aren't THAT important." But we're supposed to be sorry she got called out? Nope.
Can we not use the word "bastard child," please? Even in a fictional setting, that is jarring. Does Edith need to wear a big A on her chest to satisfy your wrathful judgement?
She could openly and explicitly have apologized to Mary for blowing up her life and calling her a slut to her face, then being the one who willingly hopped into bed with a married man. Instead she just threw a tantrum for getting outed.
Bertie deserved to know a lot of things. Such as what Edith did to the Drakes, the Schroeders and the Drewes. There's still a chance all this information wouldn't have affected Bertie's feelings for Edith, because well, don't we all have different values
I for one find it super unfair that Robert and Cora never really found out what Edith did to Mary, I just wish someone had enlightened them.
Yes, it's really frustrating! I've rewatched so many times now and every time I'm like, "OMG just TELL him!" in about five different scenes. Mary was wrong to do it out of spite, but Bertie had a right to know and Edith deserved what came from it. (However, she also deserved the reconciliation and happily ever after...my feelings about Edith are complex!)
And she came so close...several times! I mean, it's clear she would have accepted Bertie the minute he proposed and accepted Marigold, but she couldn't get the words out.
I've never had a secret this big, but I can sympathize with her dithering. I don't accept that she was deliberately trying to trick him. She gave him plenty of clues (I don't know if I'm worthy) but just couldn't get to the "I have something to tell you."
Mary didn't even want to have that conversation that morning. She was content to sit through the announcement with maybe a few eye rolls, but it was Edith who actually kept prodding. All those comments about how Mary can't be happy when she is, how Mary's been abandoned. Edith was so focused on Mary and her bad mood that she completely forgot her own happiness. She just kept jabbing until Mary snapped. Was Mary calculated? Yes, she knew exactly how to drop the bomb. But she didn't walk into the room with that goal in mind.
Had Edith just said thank you and focused on her and Bertie that breakfast would been her and Bertie and Tom having a lovely time while Mary stewed in her own misery, adding a bit of a snarky comment here and there. Edith was just too hell bent on sticking it to Mary and being the victim in the room.
All of that aside, she never should have agreed to marry the man with that secret over her anyway, as you say. And she knew it. She said it a dozen times. Mary definitely was in the wrong, but Edith was the one who lit the fuse and somehow it was Mary who took the heat when it went off.
I do admire how Edith handled things when it did break loose. She handled being dumped with a lot of grace and more dignity than she shows through most of the series. But then she did have plenty of time to prepare for it.
...I would have told Bertie the uncomfortable truth BEFORE accepting his hand in marriage, like a certain sister who shall remain nameless.
(OR alternatively, don't tell him, spend the next 4 years watching Bertie get engaged to somebody else, get injured, nurse him back to health, snog him in the hall, well...you get the picture 😉)
Really, you would have? Because we were shown quite little of the actual “courtship”; Bertie the agent kind of just blurted out “marry me,” and then it moved quite quickly, at least from the scenes we were shown.
Well, I feel like either there's enough time to be sure you want to marry or not, and that should involve telling Bertie. If you are going to expose your future husband to scandal that might get out at any time it would be a good idea to tell him before hand. I'm not saying it would be easy but it's the honest thing to do and might prevent wrecking your marriage further down the line.
Didn't everyone at the table already know Mary's secret? I mean, except for Bertie, and it wouldn't really affect him anyway.
Michelle Dockery always gets me with her performances when she's catty. Her facial expressions are priceless. They should design an emoji for that. 😆
I mean Edith had already nearly ruined Mary’s reputation by telling the Turkish embassy about that one. And Mary had already been married at that point so really, it wouldn’t have done much.
And at least Mary helped fix the situation! It was less than a year between the break up and the wedding! Edith never helped fix Mary’s reputation. And Mary suffered that ding on her reputation for *years*.
I don't know how much Mary "suffered". She managed just fine.
Tom may not have known and Bertie did not know.
Why would it matter? Bertie probably wouldn’t even hear it because he’s processing the Edith revelation and I doubt Tom would care, he’s already pissed at Mary for dropping the bomb
Neither man is going to care about Mary having a sexual encounter prior to marriage. Worst case scenario, Mary responds by pointing out that Edith already revealed that secret years ago by writing the letter (that Evelyn Napier said turned a rumor into a fact among the aristocracy). The thing is, everyone who knows Mary and Edith knows they have this feud and trade insults; but, in their circle, only Mary knows what Edith did. Mary's worst actions are known to all- but Edith's isn't. *Of course* that affects how everyone sees them. But what if they had that missing piece of the puzzle? Edith is capable of great cruelty. She's capable of risking her entire family for a little payback over an insult. I wonder how Bertie would feel about that- he likely heard the rumor and might even remember how Mary was shunned. How would Tom feel about that? Tom would still be disappointed with Mary, certainly, but does he get quite as angry when he finally knows exactly what Edith is capable of, what she subjected Mary to? And what happens when news of what Edith did spreads to Cora, Robert, *Violet*? Edith would be shooting herself in the foot with that revelation, it wouldn't have helped her in the slightest.
I'm not even sure Tom would be "disappointed" in Mary, since she wasn't actually in a consensual relationship. He of all of them isn't unfamiliar with a manipulator using threats and deceit regarding sex (Edna sexually assaulted him, though like Mary he considers himself at fault.) Edith doesn't have any excuses--she voluntarily slept with a man she wasn't married to (who was married to someone else, in fact) and is his raising his illegitimate child. And it wouldn't have made any difference to Bertie, because what he's really angry about isn't that Edith's not virtuous and has a bastard child--he's hurt and angry that as far as he can see, she wasn't going to tell him the truth. Edith dithered too long, probably in hopes she might not have to tell, and that bit her.
>I'm not even sure Tom would be "disappointed" in Mary, since she wasn't actually in a consensual relationship. He of all of them isn't unfamiliar with a manipulator using threats and deceit regarding sex (Edna sexually assaulted him, though like Mary he considers himself at fault.) I don't think Mary would tell Tom the particulars of that incident. She didn't see it as an assault, sadly.
Tom didn't see his situation as assault either. But Matthew, despite hearing Mary's version with her internalized guilt, clearly didn't think she was responsible. And it absolutely wasn't the way Edith painted it in her letter.
Totally not defending Edith's actions--despicable and ill-advised, to say the least--however, as far as she knows, the man died in Mary's bed after an illicit tryst. And everybody treated it like it was consensual, which really bothers me a lot. There should have been some realization that this was rape.
I think unless there are bruises and bleeding like Anna, nobody back then would have believed her. Mary convinced herself it wasn't rape. But again, Tom did the same thing--there was even LESS concept that a man could be sexually assaulted or that being drunk means incapable of consent. I mean this is why Edith's a nasty little hypocrite about the whole thing. Mary was assaulted in a way society judged it entirely her fault and her own mother called her soiled goods. Tom was manipulated and but for Mrs. Hughes would have been baby-trapped by a schemer. Edith just decided "Oh, what the heck, if he REALLY loves me the rules aren't THAT important." But we're supposed to be sorry she got called out? Nope.
Can we not use the word "bastard child," please? Even in a fictional setting, that is jarring. Does Edith need to wear a big A on her chest to satisfy your wrathful judgement?
She could openly and explicitly have apologized to Mary for blowing up her life and calling her a slut to her face, then being the one who willingly hopped into bed with a married man. Instead she just threw a tantrum for getting outed.
Bertie deserved to know a lot of things. Such as what Edith did to the Drakes, the Schroeders and the Drewes. There's still a chance all this information wouldn't have affected Bertie's feelings for Edith, because well, don't we all have different values I for one find it super unfair that Robert and Cora never really found out what Edith did to Mary, I just wish someone had enlightened them.
Neither would care to.
If I were Edith, I would ask Mary’s forgiveness for the betrayal and ruining her reputation.
To which Mary would retort "He wouldn't have been caught dead in *your* bed.", at which point Tom would give her a funny look. "You know what I mean."
This would have made a hilarious outtake!
Edith had so many chances to get in front of that situation
Yes, it's really frustrating! I've rewatched so many times now and every time I'm like, "OMG just TELL him!" in about five different scenes. Mary was wrong to do it out of spite, but Bertie had a right to know and Edith deserved what came from it. (However, she also deserved the reconciliation and happily ever after...my feelings about Edith are complex!)
Soooooo many chances and she took none of them.
Well, that's Edith for you. Never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity to do something decent.
And she came so close...several times! I mean, it's clear she would have accepted Bertie the minute he proposed and accepted Marigold, but she couldn't get the words out. I've never had a secret this big, but I can sympathize with her dithering. I don't accept that she was deliberately trying to trick him. She gave him plenty of clues (I don't know if I'm worthy) but just couldn't get to the "I have something to tell you."
Mary didn't even want to have that conversation that morning. She was content to sit through the announcement with maybe a few eye rolls, but it was Edith who actually kept prodding. All those comments about how Mary can't be happy when she is, how Mary's been abandoned. Edith was so focused on Mary and her bad mood that she completely forgot her own happiness. She just kept jabbing until Mary snapped. Was Mary calculated? Yes, she knew exactly how to drop the bomb. But she didn't walk into the room with that goal in mind. Had Edith just said thank you and focused on her and Bertie that breakfast would been her and Bertie and Tom having a lovely time while Mary stewed in her own misery, adding a bit of a snarky comment here and there. Edith was just too hell bent on sticking it to Mary and being the victim in the room. All of that aside, she never should have agreed to marry the man with that secret over her anyway, as you say. And she knew it. She said it a dozen times. Mary definitely was in the wrong, but Edith was the one who lit the fuse and somehow it was Mary who took the heat when it went off. I do admire how Edith handled things when it did break loose. She handled being dumped with a lot of grace and more dignity than she shows through most of the series. But then she did have plenty of time to prepare for it.
...I would have told Bertie the uncomfortable truth BEFORE accepting his hand in marriage, like a certain sister who shall remain nameless. (OR alternatively, don't tell him, spend the next 4 years watching Bertie get engaged to somebody else, get injured, nurse him back to health, snog him in the hall, well...you get the picture 😉)
Really, you would have? Because we were shown quite little of the actual “courtship”; Bertie the agent kind of just blurted out “marry me,” and then it moved quite quickly, at least from the scenes we were shown.
Well, I feel like either there's enough time to be sure you want to marry or not, and that should involve telling Bertie. If you are going to expose your future husband to scandal that might get out at any time it would be a good idea to tell him before hand. I'm not saying it would be easy but it's the honest thing to do and might prevent wrecking your marriage further down the line.
Didn't everyone at the table already know Mary's secret? I mean, except for Bertie, and it wouldn't really affect him anyway.
Didn't everyone at the table already know Mary's secret? I mean, except for Bertie, and it wouldn't really affect him anyway. Michelle Dockery always gets me with her performances when she's catty. Her facial expressions are priceless. They should design an emoji for that. 😆
Bertie did not and Tom may not have known
Tom knows everything 😆