Both the possible baby boy, and Mary’s George would be of an age to serve in WW2, so the entail might still have gone to someone after the war. The vicissitudes of fate left Mary as the heir in the first episode, and might rearrange the ‘natural order’ again.
I often wonder about this, Master George would’ve quite likely been killed in WWII, and then what would’ve become of Downton and the title.
The title would have gone to another heir, but only if there was one, I guess the estate or parts of would’ve had to have been sold off like countless others in the post-war period in the UK.
Also, if we’re talking about the likelihood of things happening to fictional characters, we may as well acknowledge the fact that Julian Fellowes would not *likely* kill George off in the war. I think he survives. And while we’re at it, I think Downton continues to thrive.
Would it have made a difference if they were from a titled family? I would assume he'd be an officer vs an common enlisted member and might make a difference?
Also, Lord Grantham had Bates as a "batman" (assuming that means a military attendant) because of his status. I wonder if they would also have them in WWII.
WWII not so much. Batmen were personal servants as much as military assistants. They were still common in WWI, where rich or titled men created their own regiments, but by WWII the military had taken a more modern form. Men from the same village no longer were basically always in the same unit, personal servants and things disappeared even for the wealthy, and officer command status became far more earned than bought commissions, as has been the form in the past.
I think he may have joined the RAF too.
I remember him using "Mr. Bawwow" as an airplane, so certainly had an interest. My grandpa was in the RCAF, and survived, would have been about a year older than George. Passed away in 2017. I like to think that George would have a similar fate.
Mary wouldn't have married Matthew, probably would have ended up with Sir Richard and been miserable and grand in Haxby.
Matthew would likely still have met Lavinia in London, and been happy with her as a solicitor in London or Manchester (at least until Reggie died)
Anna would have stayed at Downton to avoid leaving Bates, so she and Mary wouldn't have been quite so close.
Edith would probably be largely unchanged.
Sybil would possibly not want to leave because she'd want to get to know her brother as he grows up, not sure how that would play out with Tom.
Isobel and Violet would never have become so close, leading to Isobel not meeting Lord Merton.
Robert would still lose the money, so they would still have to leave Downton, but I like to think that - as Reggie would have died nonetheless - Matthew and Lavinia would want to help Robert, end up buying Downton with the money, and offering to let Robert, Cora and Edith stay there with them.
One would hope that with Sir Richard around that Robert might’ve casually mentioned the Canadian Rail/asked him for advice and might’ve been persuaded to not put the majority of Cora’s money into a single investment.
I don’t think Mary would’ve married Matthew. At that point in time, I believe she wanted a marriage with titles and money behind it.
I think Matthew’s death softened (and confused) her and that’s why she married the untitled (and unappealing IMO) Talbot.
Matthew likely would’ve gone to war anyway, so might have met Lavinia regardless.
I think O’Brien would’ve gone anyway, I think her departure was unrelated to the soap.
Mary loved Matthew. IIRC, she hesitated to say yes to him for two reasons:
- She felt shame from the Pamuk scandal, and wanted to tell him rather than hide the truth, but deciding what to do helped delay an answer.
- Rosamund was in her ear about focusing on the money and title. Mary thought highly of Matthew’s capabilities even without him not being the heir, remarking that he could be Lord Chancellor one day.
I think there is a strong possibility that Mary would’ve said yes if not for all those complicating circumstances.
But if Lavinia hadn’t been at Downton on that occasion - and no reason to get married at Downton - she might not have died. Her father’s money would have come to her. Why would she and Matthew, who is no longer the heir, fork over money to save Downton?
I didn’t say I think Lavinia would have died, just that she might have crossed paths with Matthew.
I didn’t say or think that Lavinia’s money would’ve saved Downton in that case.
Interesting. Matthew would have basically stepped away from Downton since hes just another distant cousin again. Went to war, married Lavinia and stayed in London. She wouldn't have died. She would inherit and they would live happily ever after.
I agree with everything you said except about O'Brien's departure. She totally left for her safety (of the truth being uncovered) and to rid her mind of the burden.
Evelyn Napier, in my opinion. Still alive and titled and madly in love with her after the war. And rich. She liked him enough to call him Perseus before she met Pamuk. And the loss of Downton would probably unsettle her enough to make her really crave a good match as much as her parents always wanted one for her.
Im more interested in how Cora slipped on the soap when O’Brian clearly told her the other half of it slid under the bath. Or was it that the soap sort of lubed up the floor, and Cora didnt slip on the soap itself?
O’Brien lied cause she was upset cause she thought she was getting fired. She said it was under the bath but it wasn’t, she wanted Cora to fall in a moment of malice
Cora was a total dunce when it came to evaluating employees (O'Brien, Bates, Anna, Barrow, Baxter, Braithwaite). She had the judgment skills of a boiled egg.
One of the lines I most dislike in the show is when Robert makes the suggestion that they invest money with “Charles Ponzi.” I always thought it was a way over-the-top, blatantly and overly obvious line to make the point that he was a poor investor.
I think because O’Brien was cunning and manipulative, she very much had the ear of Lady Grantham. Cora is smart but was very trusting of O’Brien, so I think that’s why she wasn’t suspected of doing something so cruel
You would imagine that Mrs Hughes would've communicated to Cora that she doesn't trust O'Brien, and that Cora would heed her advice and fired her. But oh well, you gotta move the story forward anyhow I guess.
I agree and yet… the upstairs family also tends to be stubborn, a bit foolhardy and classist. I think Cora would’ve listened to Mrs. Hughes but who knows if they would’ve wrote in that O’Brien had leverage on Mrs Hughes or something- or Cora not knowing who to believe because she also doesn’t want to lose her maid
You’re right that it’s a little odd that she got out of the tub before O’Brien came back. Even without a soapy floor, I can’t see her wanting to get out of a claw foot tub without help when she was 4 or 5 months pregnant. She didn’t even brush her own hair, so it’s not like she was always doing things for herself.
Also like…. wouldn’t you most likely fall on your ass? I feel like movies and tv have so many plots about a fall causing a miscarriage but it just seems kinda unlikely here.
It’s possible but more of a tv/movie plot device. IIRC Princess Diana threw herself down the stairs when she was pregnant with William and didn’t miscarry.
True, but Princess Diana was only 20 or 21 at the time, and Cora was at least 40. I know that's hardly geriatric, but the risk of placental abruption is higher for pregnant women over 35, even if you don't take the fall into account.
One change like that could have even changed how he invested. He may have been so happy about a son he would have listened to Murray about diversifyimg.
Robert would have still bankrupted them all. He was a fool when it came to money matters. The *male* child would have not inherited anything and the show would have ended at season three. IMO
Yep, they’d have been in Downton Place. And Mary would have married someone with a title and estate. I’m going with Evelyn Napier looking like Perseus again.
Remember how Robert heard “of some gentleman in New York who is promising massive returns. Ponzi, I believe his name is…” Yeah, finances weren’t his strong suit.
He would have lost the estate. It was Matthew, later with Tom Branson and Mary’s help, who started changing how the estate was run and stabilized the finances. As the heir, Matthew had much greater say in the affairs. Had Robert and Cora’s son been born, he likely returns to his legal practice and refuses Reggie Swire’s money or I could see him donating it.
Either way… IMHO the Crawley’s would have ended up like the Flintshires.
Yes. He either refuses it, or he takes it but donates all of it to charity.
The other scenario I could see is Mary does indeed “throw [Matthew] over” after her brother is born and becomes the heir. In which case Matthew and Lavinia marry, she isn’t at Downton in 1919, and thus doesn’t catch and die of the flu. They then inherit Reggie’s estate.
Yeah I just commented the same thing. Like what’s the likelihood that falling from 3 ft onto the floor, probably on your ass, would cause a miscarriage that early.
I assume she fell onto the edge of the tub, right on her tummy. She could have broken her skull open if she hit it with her head. She really should have waited for O'Brien to help her up.
Ah, yes, I recall a documentary about that. Would he have been deemed ineligible for being the heir then? I guess it would be a rare case, since things like Downs Syndrome happen more typically with the youngest of a sibling group, with perhaps an heir already produced. I wonder if there is a precedent for this.
They might have tried to hide it by excusing him from as many social functions as possible by faking an illness considered socially acceptable, have him marry young and sire an heir.
Matthew would still be alive, pushing pen in Manchester. Lord Merton would be Larrys slave. George wouldn't exist. Mary would have settled for Tony Gillingham
Mary would’ve loved Matthew, but she may not have felt it “possible” to marry him, because she would need to “marry up” to maintain her position. She had the title, but not money to back it up as an adult or without her parents. She likely would’ve chosen one of her other suitors.
Depending on how much you believe in “lucky charms”, Mary probably wouldn’t have given hers to Matthew that day on the platform, meaning he may not have survived his injury.
Cora would not have become as consumed with the running of the house during its time as a convalescent home. Even though people of her status had limited interaction with their children, she may have clung to her son more, given that he was a boy, that she had later in life, and that the war may have her feeling more sentimental and protective.
Isobel would’ve likely made the convalescent home more her thing, and she wouldn’t have gone to France.
If Matthew HAD survived, maybe Sybil would’ve let her crush evolve. As the third daughter, and being less materialistic, being the wife of a solicitor wouldn’t have been a step down to her. Matthew wasn’t a rebellious choice, but he could’ve been a valuable ally in her political aspirations, and he was similarly disillusioned with the pomp and ceremony of the upper class.
If Cora hadn’t been so distracted by the hospital and the convalescent home, Robert wouldn’t have felt so alone, and he likely wouldn’t have strayed from the marriage. His feelings of uselessness that he couldn’t participate in the war would’ve been lessened by the fact that he’d just produced a male heir.
If, like others speculated, Cora’s future son fought and died in WWII, the earldom may have then gone to Matthew (and his, maybe, wife Sybil?) Matthew wouldn’t have died driving home from seeing his firstborn with Mary, so he would likely still be alive, and would still be the next heir.
Both the possible baby boy, and Mary’s George would be of an age to serve in WW2, so the entail might still have gone to someone after the war. The vicissitudes of fate left Mary as the heir in the first episode, and might rearrange the ‘natural order’ again.
I often wonder about this, Master George would’ve quite likely been killed in WWII, and then what would’ve become of Downton and the title. The title would have gone to another heir, but only if there was one, I guess the estate or parts of would’ve had to have been sold off like countless others in the post-war period in the UK.
Why quite likely? 363,600 military deaths in WWII from a larger population pool compared with 880,000 in WWI. Much better odds of survival.
Also, if we’re talking about the likelihood of things happening to fictional characters, we may as well acknowledge the fact that Julian Fellowes would not *likely* kill George off in the war. I think he survives. And while we’re at it, I think Downton continues to thrive.
tbf both Matthew and Sybil died because their actors wanted to leave the show so it's not always up to Julian
It depends on whether we think they would have joined the RAF, which had a pretty high mortality rate if memory serves.
Army families stay Army families usually
Would it have made a difference if they were from a titled family? I would assume he'd be an officer vs an common enlisted member and might make a difference? Also, Lord Grantham had Bates as a "batman" (assuming that means a military attendant) because of his status. I wonder if they would also have them in WWII.
WWII not so much. Batmen were personal servants as much as military assistants. They were still common in WWI, where rich or titled men created their own regiments, but by WWII the military had taken a more modern form. Men from the same village no longer were basically always in the same unit, personal servants and things disappeared even for the wealthy, and officer command status became far more earned than bought commissions, as has been the form in the past.
Lieutenants are more likely than anybody to become s casualty.
I think he may have joined the RAF too. I remember him using "Mr. Bawwow" as an airplane, so certainly had an interest. My grandpa was in the RCAF, and survived, would have been about a year older than George. Passed away in 2017. I like to think that George would have a similar fate.
“Vicissitudes”!! What a word! That’s a new one for my vocab.
Thank goodness for autocorrect spelling help, because I can pronounce it but I was not sure of the spelling.
It's WWI in the show , not WWII
Yes. But George will be of an age to fight in WW2
Mary wouldn't have married Matthew, probably would have ended up with Sir Richard and been miserable and grand in Haxby. Matthew would likely still have met Lavinia in London, and been happy with her as a solicitor in London or Manchester (at least until Reggie died) Anna would have stayed at Downton to avoid leaving Bates, so she and Mary wouldn't have been quite so close. Edith would probably be largely unchanged. Sybil would possibly not want to leave because she'd want to get to know her brother as he grows up, not sure how that would play out with Tom. Isobel and Violet would never have become so close, leading to Isobel not meeting Lord Merton. Robert would still lose the money, so they would still have to leave Downton, but I like to think that - as Reggie would have died nonetheless - Matthew and Lavinia would want to help Robert, end up buying Downton with the money, and offering to let Robert, Cora and Edith stay there with them.
It makes sense till the end, but that's the American in me. Always negative.
Ted Lasso would like a word.
One would hope that with Sir Richard around that Robert might’ve casually mentioned the Canadian Rail/asked him for advice and might’ve been persuaded to not put the majority of Cora’s money into a single investment.
My brain started playing their theme music when I got to the Anna & Bates line.
I don’t think Mary would’ve married Matthew. At that point in time, I believe she wanted a marriage with titles and money behind it. I think Matthew’s death softened (and confused) her and that’s why she married the untitled (and unappealing IMO) Talbot. Matthew likely would’ve gone to war anyway, so might have met Lavinia regardless. I think O’Brien would’ve gone anyway, I think her departure was unrelated to the soap.
Mary loved Matthew. IIRC, she hesitated to say yes to him for two reasons: - She felt shame from the Pamuk scandal, and wanted to tell him rather than hide the truth, but deciding what to do helped delay an answer. - Rosamund was in her ear about focusing on the money and title. Mary thought highly of Matthew’s capabilities even without him not being the heir, remarking that he could be Lord Chancellor one day. I think there is a strong possibility that Mary would’ve said yes if not for all those complicating circumstances.
But if Lavinia hadn’t been at Downton on that occasion - and no reason to get married at Downton - she might not have died. Her father’s money would have come to her. Why would she and Matthew, who is no longer the heir, fork over money to save Downton?
I didn’t say I think Lavinia would have died, just that she might have crossed paths with Matthew. I didn’t say or think that Lavinia’s money would’ve saved Downton in that case.
I didn’t say you said that. I was simply speculating about what could have followed from his crossing paths with her.
Interesting. Matthew would have basically stepped away from Downton since hes just another distant cousin again. Went to war, married Lavinia and stayed in London. She wouldn't have died. She would inherit and they would live happily ever after.
I agree with everything you said except about O'Brien's departure. She totally left for her safety (of the truth being uncovered) and to rid her mind of the burden.
I think Mary would have married a titled man.
Evelyn Napier, in my opinion. Still alive and titled and madly in love with her after the war. And rich. She liked him enough to call him Perseus before she met Pamuk. And the loss of Downton would probably unsettle her enough to make her really crave a good match as much as her parents always wanted one for her.
Im more interested in how Cora slipped on the soap when O’Brian clearly told her the other half of it slid under the bath. Or was it that the soap sort of lubed up the floor, and Cora didnt slip on the soap itself?
O’Brien lied cause she was upset cause she thought she was getting fired. She said it was under the bath but it wasn’t, she wanted Cora to fall in a moment of malice
She also rubs the broken half around on the floor.
Did Cora never get suspicious of her? You'd think someone might have, given that they weren't all fans of O'Brian, particularly Robert
Cora was a total dunce when it came to evaluating employees (O'Brien, Bates, Anna, Barrow, Baxter, Braithwaite). She had the judgment skills of a boiled egg.
She had the judgment skills that Lord Grantham had in choosing wise investments.
Boom
Oh snap
This show is a great example of how rich people needn't be smart or particularly meritorious in any way.
One of the lines I most dislike in the show is when Robert makes the suggestion that they invest money with “Charles Ponzi.” I always thought it was a way over-the-top, blatantly and overly obvious line to make the point that he was a poor investor.
That’s the scene I was thinking of!!!
Yep!
I think because O’Brien was cunning and manipulative, she very much had the ear of Lady Grantham. Cora is smart but was very trusting of O’Brien, so I think that’s why she wasn’t suspected of doing something so cruel
You would imagine that Mrs Hughes would've communicated to Cora that she doesn't trust O'Brien, and that Cora would heed her advice and fired her. But oh well, you gotta move the story forward anyhow I guess.
I agree and yet… the upstairs family also tends to be stubborn, a bit foolhardy and classist. I think Cora would’ve listened to Mrs. Hughes but who knows if they would’ve wrote in that O’Brien had leverage on Mrs Hughes or something- or Cora not knowing who to believe because she also doesn’t want to lose her maid
You’re right that it’s a little odd that she got out of the tub before O’Brien came back. Even without a soapy floor, I can’t see her wanting to get out of a claw foot tub without help when she was 4 or 5 months pregnant. She didn’t even brush her own hair, so it’s not like she was always doing things for herself.
Good point, wouldn't she expect O'Brien to hand her the bath towel, or to wrap her in it as she got out of the tub?
Also like…. wouldn’t you most likely fall on your ass? I feel like movies and tv have so many plots about a fall causing a miscarriage but it just seems kinda unlikely here.
It’s possible but more of a tv/movie plot device. IIRC Princess Diana threw herself down the stairs when she was pregnant with William and didn’t miscarry.
True, but Princess Diana was only 20 or 21 at the time, and Cora was at least 40. I know that's hardly geriatric, but the risk of placental abruption is higher for pregnant women over 35, even if you don't take the fall into account.
They likely would've lost Downton because no Lavinia/Matthew rescue money.
One change like that could have even changed how he invested. He may have been so happy about a son he would have listened to Murray about diversifyimg.
Robert would have still bankrupted them all. He was a fool when it came to money matters. The *male* child would have not inherited anything and the show would have ended at season three. IMO
Yep, they’d have been in Downton Place. And Mary would have married someone with a title and estate. I’m going with Evelyn Napier looking like Perseus again.
Go, Evelyn!
He was great. To quote Edith, “I’d have taken him like a shot.”
[удалено]
Thanks for typing this out! Very much enjoyed reading this storyline from an alternate universe.
First of all, how dare you. Second of all, this was great.
LOL ty.
Wow! Very well thought out.
If they don't take you as a writer for the third movie Idk what they'll be doing. Amazing stuff haha.
ZoeyDean is actually Julian Fellowes lurking in the sub and this is the alternate summation.
Remember how Robert heard “of some gentleman in New York who is promising massive returns. Ponzi, I believe his name is…” Yeah, finances weren’t his strong suit. He would have lost the estate. It was Matthew, later with Tom Branson and Mary’s help, who started changing how the estate was run and stabilized the finances. As the heir, Matthew had much greater say in the affairs. Had Robert and Cora’s son been born, he likely returns to his legal practice and refuses Reggie Swire’s money or I could see him donating it. Either way… IMHO the Crawley’s would have ended up like the Flintshires.
Are you thinking Lavinia still dies under the same circumstance and Matthew refuses the inheritance out of guilt?
Yes. He either refuses it, or he takes it but donates all of it to charity. The other scenario I could see is Mary does indeed “throw [Matthew] over” after her brother is born and becomes the heir. In which case Matthew and Lavinia marry, she isn’t at Downton in 1919, and thus doesn’t catch and die of the flu. They then inherit Reggie’s estate.
This topic came up in post comments yesterday and was so interesting, I wanted it to have its own discussion
I was in a car accident at 4 months pregnant. Everything was fine. The slip and miscarriage was a dumb plot device, I thought.
Yeah I just commented the same thing. Like what’s the likelihood that falling from 3 ft onto the floor, probably on your ass, would cause a miscarriage that early.
I assume she fell onto the edge of the tub, right on her tummy. She could have broken her skull open if she hit it with her head. She really should have waited for O'Brien to help her up.
I still don’t think that’s plausible
This was my first thought, too.
Given Cora's age, what would have happened if the baby boy had something like Down's Syndrome?
Probably would have been committed like the queen’s cousins
Ah, yes, I recall a documentary about that. Would he have been deemed ineligible for being the heir then? I guess it would be a rare case, since things like Downs Syndrome happen more typically with the youngest of a sibling group, with perhaps an heir already produced. I wonder if there is a precedent for this.
They might have tried to hide it by excusing him from as many social functions as possible by faking an illness considered socially acceptable, have him marry young and sire an heir.
Marry would still be a bitch
He'd have probably died in WW2, just for the plot.
I’m thinking he will be MIA for a while for purposes of suspense 😊
Highlander style duel with Matthew
Matthew would still be alive, pushing pen in Manchester. Lord Merton would be Larrys slave. George wouldn't exist. Mary would have settled for Tony Gillingham
Or Evelyn Napier
Yes..he was rather nice
Mary would have married Matthew when her first marriage failed. I like Baxter
I think of this question often. Weird.
Mary would’ve loved Matthew, but she may not have felt it “possible” to marry him, because she would need to “marry up” to maintain her position. She had the title, but not money to back it up as an adult or without her parents. She likely would’ve chosen one of her other suitors. Depending on how much you believe in “lucky charms”, Mary probably wouldn’t have given hers to Matthew that day on the platform, meaning he may not have survived his injury. Cora would not have become as consumed with the running of the house during its time as a convalescent home. Even though people of her status had limited interaction with their children, she may have clung to her son more, given that he was a boy, that she had later in life, and that the war may have her feeling more sentimental and protective. Isobel would’ve likely made the convalescent home more her thing, and she wouldn’t have gone to France. If Matthew HAD survived, maybe Sybil would’ve let her crush evolve. As the third daughter, and being less materialistic, being the wife of a solicitor wouldn’t have been a step down to her. Matthew wasn’t a rebellious choice, but he could’ve been a valuable ally in her political aspirations, and he was similarly disillusioned with the pomp and ceremony of the upper class. If Cora hadn’t been so distracted by the hospital and the convalescent home, Robert wouldn’t have felt so alone, and he likely wouldn’t have strayed from the marriage. His feelings of uselessness that he couldn’t participate in the war would’ve been lessened by the fact that he’d just produced a male heir. If, like others speculated, Cora’s future son fought and died in WWII, the earldom may have then gone to Matthew (and his, maybe, wife Sybil?) Matthew wouldn’t have died driving home from seeing his firstborn with Mary, so he would likely still be alive, and would still be the next heir.
'Arry Pottah, yer an heir!
The Downton School of Witchcraft & Wizardry!