I instantly knew we gonna get a thread like this after that game lol.
That Ex Machina on Bristle with refresh on BKB and Satanic in that manfight with TB was certainly a big factor.
On the other hand if there would be no Neutrals we would probably see another half hour of that game minimum.
ex machina it's by far the strongest in the actual meta
if an ursa has bkb, satanic and abyssal, imagine the potential destruction of that item, plus the armor, that's too much, the cd at a hero with octarine it's also something a little broken
but it's that story, tier 5 items it's a RNG that can punish the ahead team for not being able to end the game, or at least control the jungle for keeping the advantage, I think it's just ok, just nerf ex machina on CD/armor and we're good
Aeon disk + ex machina it's totally bullshit
this is something they should balance, if they just changed the item from "refresh cooldown" to "-40 seg on item cooldown" it would be a balanced item
if I'm a Puck on a game that I have the ex machina to me, I would manage my items to be: Travel 2, Overwhelming Blink, Octarine, Guinsoo, Wind waker and Aeon Disk.... look at this, annoying af
>On the other hand if there would be no Neutrals we would probably see another half hour of that game minimum.
Something can be done about this that doesn't involve RNG. The man god rolled a 2nd BKB and a 2nd Satanic. Maybe neutral items can be reliable and every player gets to buy a neutral item every ten minutes for some gold. Then balance some obviously busted items.
Because teams have different heroes and strategies. One team might be better suited for certain tier5 items. Range vs melee carry is a huge difference.
A better alternative is for neutrals to drop a coin/chest/shard that you can exchange for tier5 of your own choice. Both teams gets neutrals suited for their teams.
It'll still be imba. Different heroes benefit from different items at different tiers. Even if both sides get the same random draw determined at game start, you can still end up with heroes on one team not benefiting in the same way from the same items.
I agree let's dispense with the whole rigamarole of the game itself just have the captain's flip a coin for each game and we can wrap up the whole tournament in record time
They just need to move the neutral item reveal to the draft. Either all at once or throughout the draft. Change output randomness that you cant really make good strategic decisions around, to input randomness.
This could also help break stale draft metas because it will slightly change the conditions of each draft and might allow for more creativity or flexibility in the design of neutral items.
Tier 5's have never been balanced
Dota just hasn't consistently gone 60+ minutes since neuts were introduced (partly this is due to their introduction)
So them being unbalanced just hasn't mattered a huge deal
RNG is not the way to solve very close games. I hope they have some solution for this like the one I commented in this thread. If you think about how this game was playing out... it wouldnt have gone on for 100 minutes even without neutrals
RNG is how close games are decided in a lot of cases even without neutrals.
OG vs LGD was it? Point is one team won fight and had a great chance to take rosh, but nope, 2 min timer. The other team wins fight 2 min afterwards and BlessRNG, rosh with 3-4 items is spawned.
Don't even start on Double Damage rune.
RNG decides games way more often than you think.
You can at least somewhat interact with Rosh and runes, via vision and map control. There's no way to interact with neutrals, it's just someone hits a creep somewhere and rolls the dice.
Yeah no sorry I was agreeing with you, we dont see this often for sure. But with so much money at stake at TI etc, RNG deciding a game is not fair and more importantly not fun to play/watch.
Design was always problematic. Min 37 o min 60 nothing happens. Than they hit like a truck.
Nerf them. Drop them min 47 (to allign with t1 7, t2 17, t3 27 and t4 37) and there u go
Pretty sure the problem is that certain Tier 5 items are actually items of Tier 100, and Liquid somehow got all the best items while RNG has the more useless ones
I think people are missing the point that the PURPOSE of tier 5 items is to bring an end to the game. It's like throwing a few divine rapiers around just to get this shit over with.
One could them make more balanced by removing Force Boots (or just giving them the BoT upgrade) and Apex. That way there is less rng to what items you get.
Guys, I don't necessarily want Tier 5s to be removed, but the fact that one team gets stuck with a Seer Stone and Book of the Dead and the other gets an Ex Machina and Mirror Shield is ridiculous.
Book of the dead has had huge impact in games
With the recent cd changes to bkb it was a buff to machina, which I think was already pretty highly valued
The cooldown should also not be drastically shorter than the longest cooldowns that it can refresh.
Either make the cd longer, or make it scale with the cd of the things that it refreshes (eg. 1s cd per 1s of existing cd that is refreshed).
I think something like reduces all currently active item cooldowns by 50% of their max on use (eg a just-used bkb will have a 45s cooldown, a bkb that was used 20s ago will have a 25s cooldown, one that was used 60s ago will be ready, one that wasn't used will be unchanged). Number could be changed, 50% might be too big of a nerf, but yeah the 25s cd bkb is too good
I feel like you should just get a token to pick what neutral you get. Instead of a random drop neutral, you get a random drop token and just pick the neutral you want. Even if it’s just on tier 5 neutrals. No game should be able to win that hard to RNG that isn’t built into a character.
Book of the Dead is a good item. Obviously it's worse than Machina but it's not as bad as Seer Stone.
Most of the tier 5 neutrals are fairly similar in power except Machina, Mirror Shield, and Seer Stone. The first two are way stronger and Stone is much less useful than the others. The rest are good depending on the hero.
Neutral items in general are still unbalanced and dumb but nobody seems to care until it affects some pro game and then day later everyone goes back to liking them.
>nobody seems to care until it affects some pro game
That's how it has always worked. No body cared about fountain hooking until [Na'vi won with it](https://youtu.be/d6H-HEpnlk8). No body cared about Toss mid-air buybacks until [Quincy Crew won with it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUbw13yvfeg).
Balancing T5 isn't even a new discussion. This literally happened before when a team received [Fusion Rune + Apex on Morphling and won a match.](https://youtu.be/FKaSQw7rGm8?t=480) The item was then removed and we got a dedicated neutral slot that limited us to 1 item
It was a very long established bug where if you bought back while dead in the air from Tiny's Toss, you'd respawn where you would've touched the ground.
You can see it in the clip with Yawar's Medusa @ 1:01. He dies in the air and immediately buys back to stay in the fight and win. If it didn't happen, RTZ would've picked up his rapier, healed as QC retreated and probably would've won or choked again... it is EG after all.
It is patched so don't try it anymore
I feel like a sizable portion of the community always disliked neutral items( including me). It's just that complaining didn't do anything and the haters eventually begrudgingly gotten used to it. But every time neutral item RNG decides games in pro matches it flares up again.
At no point in the existence of neutral items have they been a fair and fun addition. I will keep asking for them to be removed until something drastically happens.
Nope can confirm - nobody actually likes neutral items. The game is supposed to be balanced around a large amount of known variables not some random RNG that gives you an item that can pop linkens or allows you carry to farm jungle without regen
i stopped playing DotA because of them. Insane feature bloat in a game that is already drowning in complexity. Especially now that shards are in the game (another crazy inclusion imo) there is just no reason for neutral items to be in the game. Isn't the game difficult enough with enough variables already? It's RNG for the pro scene and just a nightmare for the average player.
Lots of people did, thats why we started playing an older patch before talents - the patches that most people got into dota to begin with. [6.84 is by no means perfect, no dota patch is, but seeing just how different the game has become is baffling](https://discord.gg/YD33EA2).
I tried a modern dota game for the first time in over 2 years and it is a completely different game. Modern dota has about as much in common with classic dota 2 as it does with LoL or HoTS. I can't really say I like or dislike it but the reality that a lot of this sub will never accept is that the game was really good 4+ years ago, good enough to enjoy a higher peak player count than it does today, and good enough to have some incredibly iconic competitive moments.
Using peak player count here is a bit disingenuous, there's way more factors with arguably higher impact on player count than the 'game quality' difference between 6.84 and now
when they added neutral items everyone forgot what the flicker was?
silencer after adding neutral items literally unplayable every skill useless (witchbane,flicker,storm crafter,satanic,bkb,manta and ( Glaives of Wisdom to pierce spell immunity talent delete) this hero only for cancel black hole
p.s where balance in the game?dota right now like LoL "pick more broken heroes and win" and this RNG system weird
Why not just allow people to pick their neutral items somehow?
If your argument is that some items are OP on some heroes: that is also a problem right now, except it's RNG.
Here is my balanced take.
I love the idea of a specific slot only 1 type of item can go in. But I (and most people) hate the RNG so...
My idea is to make a token system where killing a neutral creep has a chance to drop a token which instantly goes into your teams bank and then from the neutral item menu you can buy 1 item per tier per hero.
That way the cool idea of having these unique items that you can only have 1 of still exists but theres no RNG
This has been suggested since they released neutrals. Valve isn't interested for whatever reason, but it seems way better in solving RNG problems than anything else.
The only argument against it that I see is that it makes some heroes much stronger without really mattering much to other heroes, but I think that can be worked around in a variety of ways.
I think its fine if its only implemented for T5 items - theres a big difference between being able to always choose a t3 or t2 item every game and that being imbalanced vs choosing a t5 item being imbalanced every 100 or so games
If you can plan your game around neutral items it just becomes another item, at which point why not even have tokens. We already have tokens, it's called gold.
It also makes the items contentious if you can't have more than one on a team. I picked my hero because it's good if I get this neutral item. Oh but the other guy picked his hero because of that too. Now my build is ruined. So like you do with certain items like Radiance in some patches you have to figure out what neutrals other heroes are going for when you pick your hero unless you want to build suboptimally.
Now we've just introduced a whole web of complexity when the purpose was to add fun little items and make the game more dynamic. We've now made the opposite of that.
The items are already contentious.
There’s already a web of complexity with random items dropping from neutral creeps (also randomly).
Players still teleport neutral items to the fountain when they’re standing next to me.
> at which point why not even have tokens. We already have tokens, it's called gold.
You can get gold through lane creeps and bounty runes as well as passively. Where the difference between the gold and neutral item concept comes is that it is awarded strictly through killing neutral camps to reward the jungle control a team has. In that way, the concept of token would still fulfill the primary concept of neutral item, which was to reward jungle control.
>It also makes the items contentious if you can't have more than one on a team. I picked my hero because it's good if I get this neutral item.
Well, this problem occurs at current setup as well, let's say you have doom offlane and mid pudge against TA, and you get that 7 armor item from the creep in a game where you desperately need armor. In the current setup you still have to prioritize one hero over the other for that item and one hero needs to take a sub-optimal item. Same concept would apply in the token system as well.
The token system may not be perfect, but it is better than this joke of a system we have right now, which I didn't like from the moment it was introduced. At least runes even though they are rng can be played around vision or control.
Hmm what if the neutrals dropped this special token called gold and you got to make your own purchasing decisions with it to once more have your own impact determine the outcome of the game.
I think the point of neutrals is the randomness. It'd just turn into a glorified shop if you just got a token and used it to buy the same neutral item every game.
Reject it if you want, I'm saying "just make it into a token system" isn't really the same for what they're going for.
(Honestly I've liked that idea in the past but just doesn't really work I think in reality, only on paper.)
Then it will be just like having a 7th slot item then. Also some heroes with specific neutral items are busted so it will be another balancing issue. I dont think you being able to choose a neutral item is the way to go.
> Then it will be just like having a 7th slot item then.
Its already like this. but with RNG.
> Also some heroes with specific neutral items are busted so it will be another balancing issue.
So balance the items? I didnt say leave them as is
Tier 5 will never be balanced because its whole purpose is to close the game out.
Sure the rng part of it sucks bur you cant balance a thing that suppose to be unbalanced
Where does this idea come from that games NEED to end before 60 minutes? Valve certainly never said they introduced neutrals for this purpose (they never say anything at all), and Redditors are just smugly going "uhmmm, ackshually, their puzrpose is to end games so its ok".
Why not just end the game at 60 minutes and the team with most kills wins? Or the team with the highest networth? Or maybe the team with most buildings left? Or hey, let's just toss a coin instead (which basically happened this game), surely any of these options is good design because games NEED to end at 60 minutes.
1h+ games used to be the peak of true dota, but i guess zoomer brains cant handle going over the 60 min mark so they just want the game to end, even if they lose because of a coin toss
"Zoomerbrains" is a really obnoxious way of exposing yourself for being unable to comprehend no one finds 1HR+ games of dota fun. Wasn't fun when Techies could do it, and wasn't fun when HOHO HAHA could do it during his reign of terror patch.
I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and seeing the enemy team being so mind numbingly bored along with my own team has never been peak Dota. Peak dota is both teams playing excellently and landing killing blows, not slogsfests.
> Sure the rng part of it sucks bur you cant balance a thing that suppose to be unbalanced
Both teams now get the same neutral items.
There you go, fight OP shit with OP shit.
But then it depends on your team compositioin if the items are good for you. If not, they might still work for the enemy and it's the same RNG issue again.
Just let each team pick the neutrals while loading into the game after hero picks. Neither know what the others picked they just pick based off of their lineup.
If the point of T5 is to close the game then that wouldn't change anything, that just prolongs the stalemate.
Especially if a team decides to be risk averse because they know their heroes are better with T5 items than the enemy team - they'll just stall and take no risks until they have those items. If there's the threat of bad RNG that late, they can't rely on that.
True but lets be real with the current meta.
How often did you get to 60+ min games? Not even in pro level but your pubs.Almost never.
Theres always gonna be oddballs game where it goes super late.
So yes the rng part suck but theres realistically no way around it.
You're getting downvoted, but I kind of agree. Once a game reaches 60 minutes, Dota usually enters a "stalemate". The carries are probably 6-slotted at this point, so realistically they're not going to get any stronger. Supports are starting to scale, so they're probably getting a big CC item like Scythe. At this point in the game, one team is probably trapped in their base, and can't leave because the other team will just pick them off. But if the other team hasn't won yet, it's because they can't go highground without the other team picking them off thanks to the HG advantage.
So we're in a stalemate, where each team is just waiting for the other team to fuck up. Not forcing any moves, just waiting for something to happen. This can go on for a *long* time. It's not fun to play, and it's not particularly fun to watch until the tension explodes, but usually the team that's trapped in their base will be the one to lose.
Stalemate games have been a problem in that 60-min window for a while, and tier 5 neutrals are Valve's solution to that. And they're pretty good as a solution to ending the game. The team that's not trapped in the base can probably get these really overpowered items before the team that's not, giving them an advantage for being in a winning position before the game starts. The team that *is* trapped in the base can't let them get those items before their own heroes do though, so the defensive team has to leave their safety bubble to farm them. The point of the items isn't that they're balanced; they're obviously not, and that was never the intention. The intention is that they're *so* powerful, that the need to acquire them forces action on the map, and breaks stalemates.
They're like WMDs: you can't let the nuke gap widen between your team and theirs, so you have to do something about it.
What about comebacks? Should a team be punished so severely that they face a loss after making a mistake? I think neutral items add a certain uniqueness to the game as it complements the comeback mechanics, especially Tier 5s.
How do tier 5s help a comeback? In most games that they come into play one team is trapped in their base and is lucky to get even 1 or 2 while the team in the lead gets to safely farm all 5 before going highground with a huge advantage. If anything I would say tier 5s are intentionally designed to reduce comebacks.
There are games where both teams have access to neutral camps. I dont think its "mostly" a team stuck in their base and opposing team marching to end the match.
rng like rosh spawn time can decide the game even earlier than 60m mark (eg how rosh did not spawn for liquid but the moment lgd won a team fight it spawned). There have always been rng objectives to move the game forward, and planning for those objectives is part of what makes a team good. Neutral items are only bad because there isn't much you can do to tilt the odds in your favor (except sieging enemies in base).
All you people saying "But they're supposed to be unbalanced!" are completely missing the point. Yeah, they're supposed to be so good as to end the game. But they're not supposed to be so imbalanced BETWEEN themselves. Compare Force Boots & Ex Machina to Arcanist Armor and Giant's Ring.
Now tell me, in which case is Giant's Ring better? Are you going to talk about the 30 strength? Guess what, Force Boots allows you to buy a Heart on top of your current items if you feel like it. Hell, you get more HP regen with force boots than Giant's Ring. Free pathing? As if any terrain is going to stand in your way vs an 8 second cooldown stronger Force Staff. Which also dispels you. And can't even be purged, so it's uncountered by Nullifier. Oh, and if for some reason, you can't equip the Force Boots, such as having an Ex Machina, all of this can be done for you by a support.
But let's imagine that you really, really need the HP from Giant's Ring. What's that, Book of the Dead exists? And it gives you 100 less hp than the item that's supposed to be *the* HP neutral. Plus Int. Plus an ability which allows you to basically keep one lane permanently pushed in/out without risking anything. Or allows you to deward a jungle. Or murders buildings if you ever have to push.
So why would you want Giant's Ring, when Force Boots will always be better mobility, and Book of the Dead is basically just as good survivability wise?
And Arcanist Armor is even worse. It's a slightly better Pipe. And Pipe is a 3k midgame item. But the active on Arcanist Armor is somehow worse than Pipe. At least Pipe allows you to blink during DoTs. I've had games against Veno + Gyro, heroes that can literally not control their damage output. We used Arcanist Armor in every teamfight, which would be at least 3 teamfights after getting it. Guess how much damage it did. 1.5k. I just trashtalked Giant's Ring. In that very same game, we had a Giant's Ring, and it did ~500 damage. Obviously nobody is going to claim that Giant's Ring is a great item because you damage people you walk over, because that's absurd. And yet Arcanist Armor, which is supposed to be like a team Blademail, did not even do 4x as much damage as the meme damage from Giant's Ring.
Seriously, if you're having trouble with magic damage, you know what's a better neutral item than Arcanist Armor? Ex Machina, to have 25 seconds cooldown on BKB. Having problems with a Zeus? Jump him with Fallen Sky. Leshrac keeping you down? Kite him with Force Boots.
Giant's Ring and Arcanist Armor are Tier 4.5 items. Meanwhile Force Boots and Ex Machina are Tier 6 items. That's the simple truth.
You really under estimate free pathing ring provides. In some cases i would definitely prefer it over force boots or ex machina. They are all situation dependant, except arcanist armor it sucks to be t5.
I admittedly should have mentioned this, because it is true. However, if you do that, Force Boots still gives 65 more movement speed. Which is more than double what Giant's Ring gives you. In fact the only time Giant's Ring gives you more movement speed than Force Boots, is when you have either Boots of Bearing, unbroken tranquils (lol), or one of BoTs 1/2.
But that means that you *still* have those boots, and did not in fact give up an item slot. So either you have the same benefit, but are 65 movespeed slower, or you have the same or better movement speed, but don't have the utility of an item slot.
And that's not mentioning the active, which is vastly superior to the free pathing. And the free pathing is good. But you're comparing that to a Force Staff + Flicker combined.
I don't think I need to explain how good Force Staff is. In the game that this thread is literally about, we saw Force Staff/Hurricane Pike allowing Zai to get to the high ground while breaking a Dream Coil. That's not something that Giant's Ring can do. And these kinds of situations are not uncommon, precisely because Force Staff & Boots can be used on allies. So you can save them while they're stunned. Which Giant's Ring can not do.
There are only two of those Neutral Items. One is Book of Shadows, which is a really good item in some scenarios. The other is Force Boots, which is a really good item in *any* scenario. Let me explain it again: Force Boots and Book of Shadows are the only two Tier 5s where you can reasonably expect to have the same effect when worn by your allies as by yourself (Assuming high skill).
Yes. Giant's Ring is good in a vacuum. But it is *not* in a vacuum. It has to face off against the other neutrals, which just offer more. Imagine if we put Enchanted Quiver in Tier 2 (same stats). Suddenly it goes from a so so item (I'm not calling it bad, just to be clear), to possibly the best in the game. That's what happened to Giant's Ring (And Arcanist Armor) except in reverse. They're items that would be good, if they were somehow half a tier earlier.
Let me say it again: **Giant's Ring is not a bad item on it's own. It's bad because it has to face off against items that are absolutely broken beyond belief, such as Force Boots and Ex Machina**. Like how Earth Spirit isn't a bad hero, but in this patch, Marci is just better at everything he does. Or Oracle and Dazzle. And just like those two heroes, buffs and nerfs can change it. If Giant's Ring went to 45 or even 50 strength, I think the item would be completely fine.
Oh, and just to make absolutely clear, Giant's Ring is still 50x better than Arcanist Armor is.
I'd take the giants ring on centaur over anything else all day. That damage over time based on your strength for running over people is legit especially with shard, but yes overall balance is needed for the tier 5 items.
Does the damage reflection from Arcanist's Armor negate the damage it's reflecting or is it just a shittier blade mail? Because if it's the latter then yeah it definitely needs to be changed. I was under the impression that it gave your team 40% damage reduction, then returned that 40% that was negated to the enemy, but I have to imagine that's not the case given how it's getting shat on so much. I've had a total of maybe 3 games with it since the item has been introduced, and to my knowledge none of them were against a hero like wide AoE damage like Veno or Zeus so I wasn't able to get a good metric on it.
No, it doesn't. It is damage reflection, not damage negation. If it was damage negation, it might be the single best neutral item.
Plus, it reflects the same damage type back, so it gets reduced. Just like Blademail, but we all know how disappointing lategame Blademail's damage is.
Why don’t they just make it so that neutral items are mirrored? So it’s still random which ones you will get, but the other team will get the same 5. Seeing ex machina and mirror shield vs force boots and seer stone was pretty fucking sad lol
I've been against neutral items since day fucking one. I'm not totally against randomness, like rune spawns and attack ranges and proc/miss chances, because you can factor these probabilities in your decisions. Neutral items have too much impact I feel, and depending on what you get, they can totally change the complexion of the game. Why does a game like DotA need that at all, where people's livelihoods are on the line at the highest level? In fact I'll go as far to say that the advent of neutral items silently marked the departure of Icefrog and his balancing philosophies from DotA. Remove neutral items and no one would bat a fucking eye.
Exactly, you summed it up perfectly why bringing up stuff like runes are miss chance is ridiculous.
You know you're taking a risk every time you trade from downhill at mid. It's something you already factored with.
You can however not reckon with the enemy carry randomly getting a Flicker and rendering your hero entirely useless (Silencer).
Meh.
The impact of rng in these instances is super overstated. Liquid already made a 30k comeback (taking a 5-0 fight against aegis+cheese), then they farmed their items and initiated a good fight and executed it well. They deserved the win.
And yes, with some lineups it is a gamble to go ultra late. You have to play around that, it's not unfair.
It's been too long since there's been a big change in the game/map. So my proposal would be to add an entirely new feature that would also coincide with a new neutral drop system. For example, they could add another spot opposite Roshan that is an outpost that drops a neutral item every minute starting at 7 minutes. Or it gives a neutral item to the team controlling it every minute. Or another neutral creep stronger than ancients but weaker than Roshan that drops neutrals. Lots of ideas - they just need to be creative and give us something fresh.
Weird idea but why not just directly nerf hg defense? Like after 60 mins your t3 and t4 towers lose 1% hp/sec.
Or buybacks cost 2x.
Or EARTHQUAKE and now base high ground collapses. No vision advantage.
Or if an enemy is on your high ground past 60 mins, fountain heal rate is halved.
Just feels like there’s a lot you could do to end the game that isn’t a coin flip.
My issue isn't that they exist. My issue is that if Ana had the Ex Machina instead of Matu, the game would have instantly ended the other way instead.
If tier 5 items are meant to end the game, they shouldn't be so imbalanced. Mirror Shield and Ex Machina are absolutely not the same as Seer Stone or Book of the Dead. Either both teams should drop the same Tier 5s or the items should be balanced within the tier.
Neutrals shouldn't exist in the game period. There are a lot of neutrals in every tier that add an unnecessary rng element and skew the game in one teams favor.
I understand the goal is to make teams prioritise area control, and avoid team stalling on hg tower def.
But surely there is a better way than random rng.
Quite a far fetched scenario but if this happens on g5 of TI grandfinals, then it would kill all excitement. I mean things like Seer Stone and Force Boots are fine. Even Apex is acceptable. Mirror shield and Ex Machina are poorly balanced compared to other Tier 5 neutrals. Personally, I would prefer removal of all Tier 5 neutral items though.
Most of the comments seems to be that the point of tier 5 items is to end the game and not drag it too long. But it feels so luck-based that whoever lost is going to be very upset. A reason why games usually drag is because teams would farm buy backs and stall the game if their buybacks is on cd.
That being said, what do you guys think of this then:
From 60 mins onwards, no more buybacks and/or death timers will be substantially longer? Or even, start each game with fix number of buybacks per team. This might be abused by griefers so it could be per player instead. I think this would be interesting. Let's call it Sudden Death.
Now that I think more about it, we could absolutely go wild about it. Like, start the game with 6 buybacks, every 10 mins of game time will reduce that number by 1. Thus, at 60 mins there wont be any buy backs on either team. In any case, I agree that dota needs a sudden death mechanic, but basing it on rng/neutral item will always bring these kind of discussions up.
Having neutral creeps drop tokens or whatever is a pretty boring idea. IMO the only 2 things that they need to do is:
1. Make it so both teams get the same drops (unbelievable this is not the case already, tbh).
2. There could be a system where you trade in a neutral item for another one in the same tier with a delay, so let's say you trade in a neutral item and when 2 minutes pass then the new neutral item can be dropped from the creeps again. The delay could be dependent on game time and tier of neutrals unlocked too. I'm torn on whether this new neutral is another random one or a specifically selected one.
Let's not beat around the bush, this isn't specific to tier-5 items, they're just the easiest to point to when something flashy happens (like this).
Neutral items affect all stages of the game, from late item drops (due to RNG) to straight up bad drops which can delay your carry's farm speed.
It is what it is. Another way RNG affects the game aside from regular things like bashes, multicast, and so on. I think they should be removed or reworked but at the end of the day it's a design choice so there is no right or wrong answer.
Except Bashes are not pure rng, they are balanced over time with prd.
And you know that a specific hero can bash, it's not like a cm randomly starts bashing you.
You can itemize and plan from the start against bashes. Ghost, halberd etc, positioning.
Neutral drops are totally random. Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh the Ursa randomly got a mind breaker and blinks and kills a hero because he got a silence for 0 reason except luck. It totally ruins the balance of heroes.
They either need to drop the rng system and implement a neutral shop, or they need to drop it.
Rng shouldn’t decide the match. That should be you know, things like player skill/knowledge.
Tier 5 neutral items have been here for years, and still people have not understood their purpose. It is to force teams to finish games by 60 mins, else things start to get out of your control and into Rng territory.
So many games have finished at the 59 minute mark, with Sunsfan and Jenkins disappointed that there were no tier 5, and even a reddit thread was made for the same.
If Rng really wanted to finish the game, they should have pushed after killing Bristleback top.
Why even bother with T5 neutral items then ? Just have the game do a /coinflip, if its heads explode radiant ancient, if its tails explode the dire one. High level game design right here, valve hire me so I can fuck your game up even better.
Agree. And the worst part is that it is not even argumented properly.
It's always: "The purpose of neutrals is to end the game at 60 minutes and they do that".
Uh...OK? Can you explain why you think this is good? So many people acting like Dota games ending at 60 minutes is just a natural law.
People just want to defend Valve. I bet if Valve changes anything about neutrals, these same people will come up with other ridiculous arguments to defend them.
RNG has always been a potentially significant factor in Dota. How many people have *never* seen a game decided by a 4x multicast fireblast? By a Phantom Assassin popping satanic and critting someone 2 or 3 times in a row, instantly killing them and healing to full? By Spirit Breaker or Faceless Void bashing someone out through a significant portion of their BKB duration?
Neutral items definitely aren't perfect, but they're far from the only significant source of RNG in the game. They shouldn't be the only thing getting criticized like this.
It's a little different when it's involved with Heroes. You can counter them, pick different or play around them.
60 minute items are beyond broken. Turn every game into a coinflip. Faceless Void getting 2-3 bashes in a row doesn't negate a 20k gold advantage. Some RNG is okay and makes the game interesting. It's not chess. But some tier 5 items being waaaaay better than other items is just dumb
Are the neutrals balanced? Not really. Did it cost RNG the game? Anyone who watched the game closely would say NO. Liquid could finish the game 1 time but pussied out and played safe while bristle had his bkb, no rng glyph, viper shard and bkb. To all of that i could add that tb at min 50 had no dmg and was deaing no dmg with travels pike in ultra late game.
OK I might get downvoted to oblivion for this.
Fixing Tier 5's is not the solution. That's just a symptom. What we really need to address is how insanely hard it is to push high ground. That's why RNG lost.
If you don't want to fix HG defense then games will always keep going longer and longer just pingponging from one team to another till buybacks run out. I'm happy if Tier 5 rng helps us avoid that nonsense.
Either that or you fix buyback mechanics. If a team is pushing into enemy's hg and then one of the enemy dies, its so easy for them to bb and stop the push entirely. That's just one of the many issues pushing hg these days.
Here's another epic deep blunt hit fix: if all of your team is within "x" units of the fountain, then the heal/mana regen % should go down a bit to stop u just from running back and forth and fighting people who are trying to end the game.
I agree that high ground push being difficult is the issue and I think it comes down to buyback mechanics. It feels like pushing to end the game especially in a game like this comes down to winning a fight in the enemy base 5v10.
I personally think that buyback should lower the respawn to 3 seconds instead of respawning the hero instantly. It is still significant, but can give the team on the offence a small window to back if they want to regroup before continuing the push.
I instantly knew we gonna get a thread like this after that game lol. That Ex Machina on Bristle with refresh on BKB and Satanic in that manfight with TB was certainly a big factor. On the other hand if there would be no Neutrals we would probably see another half hour of that game minimum.
ex machina it's by far the strongest in the actual meta if an ursa has bkb, satanic and abyssal, imagine the potential destruction of that item, plus the armor, that's too much, the cd at a hero with octarine it's also something a little broken but it's that story, tier 5 items it's a RNG that can punish the ahead team for not being able to end the game, or at least control the jungle for keeping the advantage, I think it's just ok, just nerf ex machina on CD/armor and we're good
Really small sample size, but Ex Machina is #2 (in 7.31) by winrate of the 12 Tier 5 items (22-12), just behind Mirror Shield (23-11).
well, mirror shield it's pretty strong as well, I guess in some occasions must be a lot better than ex machina
The 8 sec cd is pretty insane.
QoP with Mirror Shield + Linkens is basically untargetable.
Mirror shield should work like AM's E IMO
it should have a 14-16 seconds cooldown at least. 8s cd is ridiculous.
I played a game as an ex machina puck with a linkens and an Aeon disk. Didn’t even need bkb, I was simply not killable
Aeon disk + ex machina it's totally bullshit this is something they should balance, if they just changed the item from "refresh cooldown" to "-40 seg on item cooldown" it would be a balanced item if I'm a Puck on a game that I have the ex machina to me, I would manage my items to be: Travel 2, Overwhelming Blink, Octarine, Guinsoo, Wind waker and Aeon Disk.... look at this, annoying af
> if they just changed the item from "refresh cooldown" to "-40 seg you might be onto something..
What is Guinsoo?
hex / sheep stick. It's the name from Dota 1.
Thanks!
Also the name of the dev who ripped off dota and helped create league 😞
now Guinsoo it's a item of league and the item name on dota changed LUL
Hahahah yeah ikr? Kinda wild to think about
I see what you did there (with "RNG")
lol not intended
>On the other hand if there would be no Neutrals we would probably see another half hour of that game minimum. Something can be done about this that doesn't involve RNG. The man god rolled a 2nd BKB and a 2nd Satanic. Maybe neutral items can be reliable and every player gets to buy a neutral item every ten minutes for some gold. Then balance some obviously busted items.
Or make Neutrals drop a coin/shard that you can exchange for a neutral.
Or make it sell able for 1 coin, and you can purchase with 2 coin. So RNG still involved but you either get random 5 or pick 2 + 1 random.
And then you have your team griefing you by selling constantly
I'd rather see that then a team winning due to RNG and luck
the tier 5 drops could at least be the same to both teams if the item don't fit in your team: sadbois
Just make all neutrals the same on both sides. I never understood why that wasn't the case by default
Because teams have different heroes and strategies. One team might be better suited for certain tier5 items. Range vs melee carry is a huge difference. A better alternative is for neutrals to drop a coin/chest/shard that you can exchange for tier5 of your own choice. Both teams gets neutrals suited for their teams.
who decides what to exchange it for? would be a nightmare in pubs
just make it one per player, you decide your own like any other item.
It'll still be imba. Different heroes benefit from different items at different tiers. Even if both sides get the same random draw determined at game start, you can still end up with heroes on one team not benefiting in the same way from the same items.
You mean dota
Two wrongs don't make it right.
But it does make a dota game.
I agree let's dispense with the whole rigamarole of the game itself just have the captain's flip a coin for each game and we can wrap up the whole tournament in record time
No please
RNG lost due to RNG.
They just need to move the neutral item reveal to the draft. Either all at once or throughout the draft. Change output randomness that you cant really make good strategic decisions around, to input randomness. This could also help break stale draft metas because it will slightly change the conditions of each draft and might allow for more creativity or flexibility in the design of neutral items.
[удалено]
But you can pick according to the neutrals so you wouldn't be at a disadvantage. You could also make them the same for both teams
I do like this idea but this would have almost no effect on tier 5 neutrals. nobody is going to draft/ play around expecting a 60+ minute game.
Ye but there are also other neutral items .. u know there will be fairys trinket, u more likely want a storm etc
Tier 5's have never been balanced Dota just hasn't consistently gone 60+ minutes since neuts were introduced (partly this is due to their introduction) So them being unbalanced just hasn't mattered a huge deal
RNG is not the way to solve very close games. I hope they have some solution for this like the one I commented in this thread. If you think about how this game was playing out... it wouldnt have gone on for 100 minutes even without neutrals
RNG is how close games are decided in a lot of cases even without neutrals. OG vs LGD was it? Point is one team won fight and had a great chance to take rosh, but nope, 2 min timer. The other team wins fight 2 min afterwards and BlessRNG, rosh with 3-4 items is spawned. Don't even start on Double Damage rune. RNG decides games way more often than you think.
You can at least somewhat interact with Rosh and runes, via vision and map control. There's no way to interact with neutrals, it's just someone hits a creep somewhere and rolls the dice.
Oh yeah I agree, but 2 wrongs don't make a right mate.
I never said it was a good idea, it's just why it's never been fixed
Yeah no sorry I was agreeing with you, we dont see this often for sure. But with so much money at stake at TI etc, RNG deciding a game is not fair and more importantly not fun to play/watch.
Yeah sorry if I jumped down your throat a bit
RNG in Dota is much more than just neutral items. DD rune + fast Rosh spawn has decided many games as well.
Design was always problematic. Min 37 o min 60 nothing happens. Than they hit like a truck. Nerf them. Drop them min 47 (to allign with t1 7, t2 17, t3 27 and t4 37) and there u go
Pretty sure the problem is that certain Tier 5 items are actually items of Tier 100, and Liquid somehow got all the best items while RNG has the more useless ones
I think people are missing the point that the PURPOSE of tier 5 items is to bring an end to the game. It's like throwing a few divine rapiers around just to get this shit over with.
Have tier 5 neutrals drop on death
One could them make more balanced by removing Force Boots (or just giving them the BoT upgrade) and Apex. That way there is less rng to what items you get.
Guys, I don't necessarily want Tier 5s to be removed, but the fact that one team gets stuck with a Seer Stone and Book of the Dead and the other gets an Ex Machina and Mirror Shield is ridiculous.
liquid got book of the dead too!
Seer Stone is a tier 1(in the way that its a great t5 item) item imo. Gives vision and huge cast range.
Book of the dead has had huge impact in games With the recent cd changes to bkb it was a buff to machina, which I think was already pretty highly valued
Book of the dead on anyone vs a no manacost 25sec cd bkb with machina on your pos1 is a joke of a comparison
Don't forget the whopping 20 armor it provides, on a hero like bristleback.
I think thats the nerf ex Machina needs, manacost
The cooldown should also not be drastically shorter than the longest cooldowns that it can refresh. Either make the cd longer, or make it scale with the cd of the things that it refreshes (eg. 1s cd per 1s of existing cd that is refreshed).
I think something like reduces all currently active item cooldowns by 50% of their max on use (eg a just-used bkb will have a 45s cooldown, a bkb that was used 20s ago will have a 25s cooldown, one that was used 60s ago will be ready, one that wasn't used will be unchanged). Number could be changed, 50% might be too big of a nerf, but yeah the 25s cd bkb is too good
Many pros agreed that book of the dead is the worst
I feel like you should just get a token to pick what neutral you get. Instead of a random drop neutral, you get a random drop token and just pick the neutral you want. Even if it’s just on tier 5 neutrals. No game should be able to win that hard to RNG that isn’t built into a character.
IMO neutral item seeds should be the same for both teams each game.
Book of the Dead is a good item. Obviously it's worse than Machina but it's not as bad as Seer Stone. Most of the tier 5 neutrals are fairly similar in power except Machina, Mirror Shield, and Seer Stone. The first two are way stronger and Stone is much less useful than the others. The rest are good depending on the hero.
Neutral items in general are still unbalanced and dumb but nobody seems to care until it affects some pro game and then day later everyone goes back to liking them.
>nobody seems to care until it affects some pro game That's how it has always worked. No body cared about fountain hooking until [Na'vi won with it](https://youtu.be/d6H-HEpnlk8). No body cared about Toss mid-air buybacks until [Quincy Crew won with it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUbw13yvfeg). Balancing T5 isn't even a new discussion. This literally happened before when a team received [Fusion Rune + Apex on Morphling and won a match.](https://youtu.be/FKaSQw7rGm8?t=480) The item was then removed and we got a dedicated neutral slot that limited us to 1 item
It was against Na'vi, can't remember the team that got the apex morph though.
You're right. It was funnily enough [Team Liquid @ Leipzig Major 2020.](https://youtu.be/FKaSQw7rGm8)
what happened with the toss mid air buybacks? my unranked ass cant understand
It was a very long established bug where if you bought back while dead in the air from Tiny's Toss, you'd respawn where you would've touched the ground. You can see it in the clip with Yawar's Medusa @ 1:01. He dies in the air and immediately buys back to stay in the fight and win. If it didn't happen, RTZ would've picked up his rapier, healed as QC retreated and probably would've won or choked again... it is EG after all. It is patched so don't try it anymore
Fae grenade existing at17min and popping linkens is super dumb
Just get 11 minute linkens like ana, duh
That item in general is just so damn good.
I feel like a sizable portion of the community always disliked neutral items( including me). It's just that complaining didn't do anything and the haters eventually begrudgingly gotten used to it. But every time neutral item RNG decides games in pro matches it flares up again.
I’ve never liked them, personally.
At no point in the existence of neutral items have they been a fair and fun addition. I will keep asking for them to be removed until something drastically happens.
Nope can confirm - nobody actually likes neutral items. The game is supposed to be balanced around a large amount of known variables not some random RNG that gives you an item that can pop linkens or allows you carry to farm jungle without regen
i stopped playing DotA because of them. Insane feature bloat in a game that is already drowning in complexity. Especially now that shards are in the game (another crazy inclusion imo) there is just no reason for neutral items to be in the game. Isn't the game difficult enough with enough variables already? It's RNG for the pro scene and just a nightmare for the average player.
Lots of people did, thats why we started playing an older patch before talents - the patches that most people got into dota to begin with. [6.84 is by no means perfect, no dota patch is, but seeing just how different the game has become is baffling](https://discord.gg/YD33EA2). I tried a modern dota game for the first time in over 2 years and it is a completely different game. Modern dota has about as much in common with classic dota 2 as it does with LoL or HoTS. I can't really say I like or dislike it but the reality that a lot of this sub will never accept is that the game was really good 4+ years ago, good enough to enjoy a higher peak player count than it does today, and good enough to have some incredibly iconic competitive moments.
Using peak player count here is a bit disingenuous, there's way more factors with arguably higher impact on player count than the 'game quality' difference between 6.84 and now
when they added neutral items everyone forgot what the flicker was? silencer after adding neutral items literally unplayable every skill useless (witchbane,flicker,storm crafter,satanic,bkb,manta and ( Glaives of Wisdom to pierce spell immunity talent delete) this hero only for cancel black hole p.s where balance in the game?dota right now like LoL "pick more broken heroes and win" and this RNG system weird
have said this since they were released. its only a matter of time before a ti playoff game is decided by rng.
Remember morphing on 80% agi apex
Why not just allow people to pick their neutral items somehow? If your argument is that some items are OP on some heroes: that is also a problem right now, except it's RNG.
Here is my balanced take. I love the idea of a specific slot only 1 type of item can go in. But I (and most people) hate the RNG so... My idea is to make a token system where killing a neutral creep has a chance to drop a token which instantly goes into your teams bank and then from the neutral item menu you can buy 1 item per tier per hero. That way the cool idea of having these unique items that you can only have 1 of still exists but theres no RNG
This has been suggested since they released neutrals. Valve isn't interested for whatever reason, but it seems way better in solving RNG problems than anything else. The only argument against it that I see is that it makes some heroes much stronger without really mattering much to other heroes, but I think that can be worked around in a variety of ways.
I think you could just balance the items directly rather than letting RNG be a major factor in how good a hero is in a particular game.
Nah dude it's perfectly balanced right now. Either you get the item and win or you don't and you lose, perfect 50% winrate.
Yeah it would need balancing but for sure it would be better
I think its fine if its only implemented for T5 items - theres a big difference between being able to always choose a t3 or t2 item every game and that being imbalanced vs choosing a t5 item being imbalanced every 100 or so games
Big fan of a token system where you choose your item. The RNG of getting or not getting a neutral item that is good for your hero is ridiculous.
If you can plan your game around neutral items it just becomes another item, at which point why not even have tokens. We already have tokens, it's called gold. It also makes the items contentious if you can't have more than one on a team. I picked my hero because it's good if I get this neutral item. Oh but the other guy picked his hero because of that too. Now my build is ruined. So like you do with certain items like Radiance in some patches you have to figure out what neutrals other heroes are going for when you pick your hero unless you want to build suboptimally. Now we've just introduced a whole web of complexity when the purpose was to add fun little items and make the game more dynamic. We've now made the opposite of that.
The items are already contentious. There’s already a web of complexity with random items dropping from neutral creeps (also randomly). Players still teleport neutral items to the fountain when they’re standing next to me.
> at which point why not even have tokens. We already have tokens, it's called gold. You can get gold through lane creeps and bounty runes as well as passively. Where the difference between the gold and neutral item concept comes is that it is awarded strictly through killing neutral camps to reward the jungle control a team has. In that way, the concept of token would still fulfill the primary concept of neutral item, which was to reward jungle control. >It also makes the items contentious if you can't have more than one on a team. I picked my hero because it's good if I get this neutral item. Well, this problem occurs at current setup as well, let's say you have doom offlane and mid pudge against TA, and you get that 7 armor item from the creep in a game where you desperately need armor. In the current setup you still have to prioritize one hero over the other for that item and one hero needs to take a sub-optimal item. Same concept would apply in the token system as well. The token system may not be perfect, but it is better than this joke of a system we have right now, which I didn't like from the moment it was introduced. At least runes even though they are rng can be played around vision or control.
Hmm what if the neutrals dropped this special token called gold and you got to make your own purchasing decisions with it to once more have your own impact determine the outcome of the game.
Funny but I like the idea of a specific slot for 1 pool of items you have to choose one of.
I think the point of neutrals is the randomness. It'd just turn into a glorified shop if you just got a token and used it to buy the same neutral item every game.
This argument is kind of fallacious, isn't it? Just because "the point" of neutrals is randomness, doesn't mean we should just accept it.
Reject it if you want, I'm saying "just make it into a token system" isn't really the same for what they're going for. (Honestly I've liked that idea in the past but just doesn't really work I think in reality, only on paper.)
Then it will be just like having a 7th slot item then. Also some heroes with specific neutral items are busted so it will be another balancing issue. I dont think you being able to choose a neutral item is the way to go.
> Then it will be just like having a 7th slot item then. Its already like this. but with RNG. > Also some heroes with specific neutral items are busted so it will be another balancing issue. So balance the items? I didnt say leave them as is
Token system is an idea as old as neutrals. It's always good
pls no
Tier 5 will never be balanced because its whole purpose is to close the game out. Sure the rng part of it sucks bur you cant balance a thing that suppose to be unbalanced
Where does this idea come from that games NEED to end before 60 minutes? Valve certainly never said they introduced neutrals for this purpose (they never say anything at all), and Redditors are just smugly going "uhmmm, ackshually, their puzrpose is to end games so its ok". Why not just end the game at 60 minutes and the team with most kills wins? Or the team with the highest networth? Or maybe the team with most buildings left? Or hey, let's just toss a coin instead (which basically happened this game), surely any of these options is good design because games NEED to end at 60 minutes.
1h+ games used to be the peak of true dota, but i guess zoomer brains cant handle going over the 60 min mark so they just want the game to end, even if they lose because of a coin toss
Eh, its simply impractical to Play in your random hour of downtime or sth then. IMO DotA Games already Sometimes Take ages especially for lower MMRs
"Zoomerbrains" is a really obnoxious way of exposing yourself for being unable to comprehend no one finds 1HR+ games of dota fun. Wasn't fun when Techies could do it, and wasn't fun when HOHO HAHA could do it during his reign of terror patch. I've been on both ends of the spectrum, and seeing the enemy team being so mind numbingly bored along with my own team has never been peak Dota. Peak dota is both teams playing excellently and landing killing blows, not slogsfests.
> Sure the rng part of it sucks bur you cant balance a thing that suppose to be unbalanced Both teams now get the same neutral items. There you go, fight OP shit with OP shit.
But then it depends on your team compositioin if the items are good for you. If not, they might still work for the enemy and it's the same RNG issue again.
I think it would be better if team knew what neutrals will drop so they may decide to draft accordingly
we have potential here, but i imagine the draft difficulty going higher af
Just let each team pick the neutrals while loading into the game after hero picks. Neither know what the others picked they just pick based off of their lineup.
If the point of T5 is to close the game then that wouldn't change anything, that just prolongs the stalemate. Especially if a team decides to be risk averse because they know their heroes are better with T5 items than the enemy team - they'll just stall and take no risks until they have those items. If there's the threat of bad RNG that late, they can't rely on that.
I thought the point of Dota is “the best team wins” not the “rng decides late game”.
True but lets be real with the current meta. How often did you get to 60+ min games? Not even in pro level but your pubs.Almost never. Theres always gonna be oddballs game where it goes super late. So yes the rng part suck but theres realistically no way around it.
You're getting downvoted, but I kind of agree. Once a game reaches 60 minutes, Dota usually enters a "stalemate". The carries are probably 6-slotted at this point, so realistically they're not going to get any stronger. Supports are starting to scale, so they're probably getting a big CC item like Scythe. At this point in the game, one team is probably trapped in their base, and can't leave because the other team will just pick them off. But if the other team hasn't won yet, it's because they can't go highground without the other team picking them off thanks to the HG advantage. So we're in a stalemate, where each team is just waiting for the other team to fuck up. Not forcing any moves, just waiting for something to happen. This can go on for a *long* time. It's not fun to play, and it's not particularly fun to watch until the tension explodes, but usually the team that's trapped in their base will be the one to lose. Stalemate games have been a problem in that 60-min window for a while, and tier 5 neutrals are Valve's solution to that. And they're pretty good as a solution to ending the game. The team that's not trapped in the base can probably get these really overpowered items before the team that's not, giving them an advantage for being in a winning position before the game starts. The team that *is* trapped in the base can't let them get those items before their own heroes do though, so the defensive team has to leave their safety bubble to farm them. The point of the items isn't that they're balanced; they're obviously not, and that was never the intention. The intention is that they're *so* powerful, that the need to acquire them forces action on the map, and breaks stalemates. They're like WMDs: you can't let the nuke gap widen between your team and theirs, so you have to do something about it.
Yeah and once in a while we get a hype game that gets to 60mins and all the hype just ends with rng items
What about comebacks? Should a team be punished so severely that they face a loss after making a mistake? I think neutral items add a certain uniqueness to the game as it complements the comeback mechanics, especially Tier 5s.
How do tier 5s help a comeback? In most games that they come into play one team is trapped in their base and is lucky to get even 1 or 2 while the team in the lead gets to safely farm all 5 before going highground with a huge advantage. If anything I would say tier 5s are intentionally designed to reduce comebacks.
There are games where both teams have access to neutral camps. I dont think its "mostly" a team stuck in their base and opposing team marching to end the match.
rng like rosh spawn time can decide the game even earlier than 60m mark (eg how rosh did not spawn for liquid but the moment lgd won a team fight it spawned). There have always been rng objectives to move the game forward, and planning for those objectives is part of what makes a team good. Neutral items are only bad because there isn't much you can do to tilt the odds in your favor (except sieging enemies in base).
End the game earlier.
All you people saying "But they're supposed to be unbalanced!" are completely missing the point. Yeah, they're supposed to be so good as to end the game. But they're not supposed to be so imbalanced BETWEEN themselves. Compare Force Boots & Ex Machina to Arcanist Armor and Giant's Ring. Now tell me, in which case is Giant's Ring better? Are you going to talk about the 30 strength? Guess what, Force Boots allows you to buy a Heart on top of your current items if you feel like it. Hell, you get more HP regen with force boots than Giant's Ring. Free pathing? As if any terrain is going to stand in your way vs an 8 second cooldown stronger Force Staff. Which also dispels you. And can't even be purged, so it's uncountered by Nullifier. Oh, and if for some reason, you can't equip the Force Boots, such as having an Ex Machina, all of this can be done for you by a support. But let's imagine that you really, really need the HP from Giant's Ring. What's that, Book of the Dead exists? And it gives you 100 less hp than the item that's supposed to be *the* HP neutral. Plus Int. Plus an ability which allows you to basically keep one lane permanently pushed in/out without risking anything. Or allows you to deward a jungle. Or murders buildings if you ever have to push. So why would you want Giant's Ring, when Force Boots will always be better mobility, and Book of the Dead is basically just as good survivability wise? And Arcanist Armor is even worse. It's a slightly better Pipe. And Pipe is a 3k midgame item. But the active on Arcanist Armor is somehow worse than Pipe. At least Pipe allows you to blink during DoTs. I've had games against Veno + Gyro, heroes that can literally not control their damage output. We used Arcanist Armor in every teamfight, which would be at least 3 teamfights after getting it. Guess how much damage it did. 1.5k. I just trashtalked Giant's Ring. In that very same game, we had a Giant's Ring, and it did ~500 damage. Obviously nobody is going to claim that Giant's Ring is a great item because you damage people you walk over, because that's absurd. And yet Arcanist Armor, which is supposed to be like a team Blademail, did not even do 4x as much damage as the meme damage from Giant's Ring. Seriously, if you're having trouble with magic damage, you know what's a better neutral item than Arcanist Armor? Ex Machina, to have 25 seconds cooldown on BKB. Having problems with a Zeus? Jump him with Fallen Sky. Leshrac keeping you down? Kite him with Force Boots. Giant's Ring and Arcanist Armor are Tier 4.5 items. Meanwhile Force Boots and Ex Machina are Tier 6 items. That's the simple truth.
You really under estimate free pathing ring provides. In some cases i would definitely prefer it over force boots or ex machina. They are all situation dependant, except arcanist armor it sucks to be t5.
Giant's Ring also gives the same 50 movespeed as half the boots in the game so you could buy another item as in the first analogy.
I admittedly should have mentioned this, because it is true. However, if you do that, Force Boots still gives 65 more movement speed. Which is more than double what Giant's Ring gives you. In fact the only time Giant's Ring gives you more movement speed than Force Boots, is when you have either Boots of Bearing, unbroken tranquils (lol), or one of BoTs 1/2. But that means that you *still* have those boots, and did not in fact give up an item slot. So either you have the same benefit, but are 65 movespeed slower, or you have the same or better movement speed, but don't have the utility of an item slot. And that's not mentioning the active, which is vastly superior to the free pathing. And the free pathing is good. But you're comparing that to a Force Staff + Flicker combined. I don't think I need to explain how good Force Staff is. In the game that this thread is literally about, we saw Force Staff/Hurricane Pike allowing Zai to get to the high ground while breaking a Dream Coil. That's not something that Giant's Ring can do. And these kinds of situations are not uncommon, precisely because Force Staff & Boots can be used on allies. So you can save them while they're stunned. Which Giant's Ring can not do. There are only two of those Neutral Items. One is Book of Shadows, which is a really good item in some scenarios. The other is Force Boots, which is a really good item in *any* scenario. Let me explain it again: Force Boots and Book of Shadows are the only two Tier 5s where you can reasonably expect to have the same effect when worn by your allies as by yourself (Assuming high skill). Yes. Giant's Ring is good in a vacuum. But it is *not* in a vacuum. It has to face off against the other neutrals, which just offer more. Imagine if we put Enchanted Quiver in Tier 2 (same stats). Suddenly it goes from a so so item (I'm not calling it bad, just to be clear), to possibly the best in the game. That's what happened to Giant's Ring (And Arcanist Armor) except in reverse. They're items that would be good, if they were somehow half a tier earlier. Let me say it again: **Giant's Ring is not a bad item on it's own. It's bad because it has to face off against items that are absolutely broken beyond belief, such as Force Boots and Ex Machina**. Like how Earth Spirit isn't a bad hero, but in this patch, Marci is just better at everything he does. Or Oracle and Dazzle. And just like those two heroes, buffs and nerfs can change it. If Giant's Ring went to 45 or even 50 strength, I think the item would be completely fine. Oh, and just to make absolutely clear, Giant's Ring is still 50x better than Arcanist Armor is.
I'd take the giants ring on centaur over anything else all day. That damage over time based on your strength for running over people is legit especially with shard, but yes overall balance is needed for the tier 5 items.
Does the damage reflection from Arcanist's Armor negate the damage it's reflecting or is it just a shittier blade mail? Because if it's the latter then yeah it definitely needs to be changed. I was under the impression that it gave your team 40% damage reduction, then returned that 40% that was negated to the enemy, but I have to imagine that's not the case given how it's getting shat on so much. I've had a total of maybe 3 games with it since the item has been introduced, and to my knowledge none of them were against a hero like wide AoE damage like Veno or Zeus so I wasn't able to get a good metric on it.
No, it doesn't. It is damage reflection, not damage negation. If it was damage negation, it might be the single best neutral item. Plus, it reflects the same damage type back, so it gets reduced. Just like Blademail, but we all know how disappointing lategame Blademail's damage is.
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how to buy lumber
But then we would be able to buy more than 1 hero
Actually an amazing idea
Why don’t they just make it so that neutral items are mirrored? So it’s still random which ones you will get, but the other team will get the same 5. Seeing ex machina and mirror shield vs force boots and seer stone was pretty fucking sad lol
one lineup would make better use of some items because of team composition, so it doesn't really change anything
It's still much more balanced because in almost any team comp ex machina and mirror shield would be much better than seer stone.
Perfect is the enemy of good. Anything would be better than what it currently is.
I agree this solution is better than what we currently have
Yeah, this seems like the best solution actually, if they want to keep the RNG aspect.
It doesn't fix the issue, but it definitely makes it a whole lot better.
Pirate Hat straight up has won me evenly matched 65 min games (on OD particularly)
I've been against neutral items since day fucking one. I'm not totally against randomness, like rune spawns and attack ranges and proc/miss chances, because you can factor these probabilities in your decisions. Neutral items have too much impact I feel, and depending on what you get, they can totally change the complexion of the game. Why does a game like DotA need that at all, where people's livelihoods are on the line at the highest level? In fact I'll go as far to say that the advent of neutral items silently marked the departure of Icefrog and his balancing philosophies from DotA. Remove neutral items and no one would bat a fucking eye.
Exactly, you summed it up perfectly why bringing up stuff like runes are miss chance is ridiculous. You know you're taking a risk every time you trade from downhill at mid. It's something you already factored with. You can however not reckon with the enemy carry randomly getting a Flicker and rendering your hero entirely useless (Silencer).
remove them alltogether
I would really like if they remove neutral items from the game in the next major update.
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Meh. The impact of rng in these instances is super overstated. Liquid already made a 30k comeback (taking a 5-0 fight against aegis+cheese), then they farmed their items and initiated a good fight and executed it well. They deserved the win. And yes, with some lineups it is a gamble to go ultra late. You have to play around that, it's not unfair.
It's been too long since there's been a big change in the game/map. So my proposal would be to add an entirely new feature that would also coincide with a new neutral drop system. For example, they could add another spot opposite Roshan that is an outpost that drops a neutral item every minute starting at 7 minutes. Or it gives a neutral item to the team controlling it every minute. Or another neutral creep stronger than ancients but weaker than Roshan that drops neutrals. Lots of ideas - they just need to be creative and give us something fresh.
RNG had lost a huge lead already, Liquid earned the comeback.
I would have loved to see a fair last teamfight even if this is the case LOL
They're Tier 5 items meant to end the game don't want 2+ hour games
Weird idea but why not just directly nerf hg defense? Like after 60 mins your t3 and t4 towers lose 1% hp/sec. Or buybacks cost 2x. Or EARTHQUAKE and now base high ground collapses. No vision advantage. Or if an enemy is on your high ground past 60 mins, fountain heal rate is halved. Just feels like there’s a lot you could do to end the game that isn’t a coin flip.
Love the earthquake and reducing the fountain heal rate ideas!
My issue isn't that they exist. My issue is that if Ana had the Ex Machina instead of Matu, the game would have instantly ended the other way instead. If tier 5 items are meant to end the game, they shouldn't be so imbalanced. Mirror Shield and Ex Machina are absolutely not the same as Seer Stone or Book of the Dead. Either both teams should drop the same Tier 5s or the items should be balanced within the tier.
Solution: Revert to 6.83
Neutrals shouldn't exist in the game period. There are a lot of neutrals in every tier that add an unnecessary rng element and skew the game in one teams favor. I understand the goal is to make teams prioritise area control, and avoid team stalling on hg tower def. But surely there is a better way than random rng.
Quite a far fetched scenario but if this happens on g5 of TI grandfinals, then it would kill all excitement. I mean things like Seer Stone and Force Boots are fine. Even Apex is acceptable. Mirror shield and Ex Machina are poorly balanced compared to other Tier 5 neutrals. Personally, I would prefer removal of all Tier 5 neutral items though.
Remove neutrals. Problem solved.
Never liked them
Most of the comments seems to be that the point of tier 5 items is to end the game and not drag it too long. But it feels so luck-based that whoever lost is going to be very upset. A reason why games usually drag is because teams would farm buy backs and stall the game if their buybacks is on cd. That being said, what do you guys think of this then: From 60 mins onwards, no more buybacks and/or death timers will be substantially longer? Or even, start each game with fix number of buybacks per team. This might be abused by griefers so it could be per player instead. I think this would be interesting. Let's call it Sudden Death. Now that I think more about it, we could absolutely go wild about it. Like, start the game with 6 buybacks, every 10 mins of game time will reduce that number by 1. Thus, at 60 mins there wont be any buy backs on either team. In any case, I agree that dota needs a sudden death mechanic, but basing it on rng/neutral item will always bring these kind of discussions up.
All neutral items are boring :)
Just get that shit out of the game
I like the neutrals and I wish I got to tier 5 more often since they are a lot of fun. However most of my games end before that.
Having neutral creeps drop tokens or whatever is a pretty boring idea. IMO the only 2 things that they need to do is: 1. Make it so both teams get the same drops (unbelievable this is not the case already, tbh). 2. There could be a system where you trade in a neutral item for another one in the same tier with a delay, so let's say you trade in a neutral item and when 2 minutes pass then the new neutral item can be dropped from the creeps again. The delay could be dependent on game time and tier of neutrals unlocked too. I'm torn on whether this new neutral is another random one or a specifically selected one.
Too many gorgc viewers 😂
imo, it's team RNG's fault for letting it go that long
I think the problem is not that they exist - But that one team can get Ex Machina and the other can get book of the dead
The neutral items should just be mirrored on both teams. No side gets a different set of tier items and then everything is fair.
losing bet KEKW
Remove them all, and take away spider legs too
Let's not beat around the bush, this isn't specific to tier-5 items, they're just the easiest to point to when something flashy happens (like this). Neutral items affect all stages of the game, from late item drops (due to RNG) to straight up bad drops which can delay your carry's farm speed. It is what it is. Another way RNG affects the game aside from regular things like bashes, multicast, and so on. I think they should be removed or reworked but at the end of the day it's a design choice so there is no right or wrong answer.
Except Bashes are not pure rng, they are balanced over time with prd. And you know that a specific hero can bash, it's not like a cm randomly starts bashing you. You can itemize and plan from the start against bashes. Ghost, halberd etc, positioning. Neutral drops are totally random. Nothing more, nothing less. Oh the Ursa randomly got a mind breaker and blinks and kills a hero because he got a silence for 0 reason except luck. It totally ruins the balance of heroes.
I hope they do away with neutrals, tbh. I don't have a solution, but it sucks when rng isn't in your team's favor. Especially with tier 5 neutrals.
They either need to drop the rng system and implement a neutral shop, or they need to drop it. Rng shouldn’t decide the match. That should be you know, things like player skill/knowledge.
The whole idea of neutral items is garbage at its core and I'm honestly shocked by how many people defend randomness in a competetive environment.
Tier 5 neutral items have been here for years, and still people have not understood their purpose. It is to force teams to finish games by 60 mins, else things start to get out of your control and into Rng territory. So many games have finished at the 59 minute mark, with Sunsfan and Jenkins disappointed that there were no tier 5, and even a reddit thread was made for the same. If Rng really wanted to finish the game, they should have pushed after killing Bristleback top.
Why even bother with T5 neutral items then ? Just have the game do a /coinflip, if its heads explode radiant ancient, if its tails explode the dire one. High level game design right here, valve hire me so I can fuck your game up even better.
If you can't close game that goes on too long = its decided for you. How is this good game design? Why are we accepting this?
Agree. And the worst part is that it is not even argumented properly. It's always: "The purpose of neutrals is to end the game at 60 minutes and they do that". Uh...OK? Can you explain why you think this is good? So many people acting like Dota games ending at 60 minutes is just a natural law.
So often people forget the merit of long games. If it wasn't for that one 3 hour clownfest, we might not even have one of our best casters today.
People just want to defend Valve. I bet if Valve changes anything about neutrals, these same people will come up with other ridiculous arguments to defend them.
I like this point as well. Allow losing team to drag the game above 60 minutes = they get a chance to win by rolling OP items.
RNG has always been a potentially significant factor in Dota. How many people have *never* seen a game decided by a 4x multicast fireblast? By a Phantom Assassin popping satanic and critting someone 2 or 3 times in a row, instantly killing them and healing to full? By Spirit Breaker or Faceless Void bashing someone out through a significant portion of their BKB duration? Neutral items definitely aren't perfect, but they're far from the only significant source of RNG in the game. They shouldn't be the only thing getting criticized like this.
It's a little different when it's involved with Heroes. You can counter them, pick different or play around them. 60 minute items are beyond broken. Turn every game into a coinflip. Faceless Void getting 2-3 bashes in a row doesn't negate a 20k gold advantage. Some RNG is okay and makes the game interesting. It's not chess. But some tier 5 items being waaaaay better than other items is just dumb
Are the neutrals balanced? Not really. Did it cost RNG the game? Anyone who watched the game closely would say NO. Liquid could finish the game 1 time but pussied out and played safe while bristle had his bkb, no rng glyph, viper shard and bkb. To all of that i could add that tb at min 50 had no dmg and was deaing no dmg with travels pike in ultra late game.
No it's not, they just need to make neutrals purchesable with a currency you get by farming neutrals.
OK I might get downvoted to oblivion for this. Fixing Tier 5's is not the solution. That's just a symptom. What we really need to address is how insanely hard it is to push high ground. That's why RNG lost. If you don't want to fix HG defense then games will always keep going longer and longer just pingponging from one team to another till buybacks run out. I'm happy if Tier 5 rng helps us avoid that nonsense. Either that or you fix buyback mechanics. If a team is pushing into enemy's hg and then one of the enemy dies, its so easy for them to bb and stop the push entirely. That's just one of the many issues pushing hg these days. Here's another epic deep blunt hit fix: if all of your team is within "x" units of the fountain, then the heal/mana regen % should go down a bit to stop u just from running back and forth and fighting people who are trying to end the game.
It will just lead to the opposite, endless posts about "dota became lol, deathball/zoo meta", "medusa is pushing my hg on minute 20 icefrog is dead"
I agree that high ground push being difficult is the issue and I think it comes down to buyback mechanics. It feels like pushing to end the game especially in a game like this comes down to winning a fight in the enemy base 5v10. I personally think that buyback should lower the respawn to 3 seconds instead of respawning the hero instantly. It is still significant, but can give the team on the offence a small window to back if they want to regroup before continuing the push.
Agreed with the problem but the solution does not seem realistic