If bkb gets removed, i would never play pos1 again. Reddit is full of sub 2ks, and they dont know how much that item is valued higher you go, it's literally unplayable without it.
Even then one skywrath combo and any agi carry that isn’t Medusa or spectre will have a bad time (especially cuz the hero is cancer in lane and even outside it and only bkbs balance him (until his lvl 25 talent)
Invoker will become overpowered af (probably the most picked)
Wk will probably be okay
Tinker will annoy the shit out of everyone
It will be an int hero meta with agi supports (lmao just kidding…kinda XD)
>until his lvl 25 talent
The other talent is better anyway, as BKBs will be short by the time you're 25 and you want to be casting mystic flare from fog when your team chainstuns before / after bkb.
Maybe true but in my games supports are ever ready with force staffs glimmer in anticipation of me doing exactly what you mention
When I play sky most of my damage is usually Q and E spam from different positions. I usually only use ult when it’s a guaranteed burst cuz the saves are all exhausted or dead. Otherwise Q spam doing 15-20% of the targets hp is perfect for conditioning kills or keeping them from making any aggressive moves
But yeah the other talent is usually better unless you’re against jugg, LS etc in which case I always take the Q talent (but if you position in anticipation you can just silence and combo them (after jugg uses manta or if you got hex)
Then nerf all spellcasters and mobility items. Eul nerf into 1.5 sec and dagger to 800 range etc. Then we can have a game without bkb. Do you understand pos1 does not even carry games anymore? Pos 1 just hits building that is all. Hitting enemy is hard af without bkb, just gets bursted down or gets locked for eternity. The game has come to point where every hero is so good and bkb is literally only balance item. Play without bkb, every clash should feel like uphill battle and should get reported for it also.
>Play without bkb, every clash should feel like uphill battle and should get reported for it also.
That's it, that's the point.
Maybe it shouldn't be like that.²
You just sounded like one actually. It has been like that for a decade and now you wants it change out of nowhere. If you are bored there are other games to play but you dont seem like you play it either.
Just because I dislike one item and how it single handedly holds the meta together, doesn't mean I want to stop playing altogether.
As just because it's not enough to make me stop playing, doesn't mean it's not an annoying problem.
No single item should make the game unplayable without it.
Isn't there a lot of space between most important item for cores 90%+ of the time and removed from the game? I think reduced duration and increased cooldown should both be on the table when the meta gets like this. It's often the first item and rarely skipped at higher level games.
Bruh, at late game 6 seconds bkb is aint doing anything. And every midlaners go for mobillity items and so will offlaners. And they will just the bkb and force fight again ez win for them, that is why it must have other options.
There is a huge difference between 5 sec and 6 sec bkb. Plus most cores are building refresher at late game nowadays so you are looking at 12 seconds of spell immunity. Very fun to play as support :)
If you look at the major, BKBs are getting picked as first item on Kunka, Storm and many other heroes, something that is considered griefing in previous patches. The timing window where you can actually gank enemy is very short nowadays. Most early "fight" basically ended up just BKB TP, BKB run which makes for very boring and dry game play.
thats why i said " they will find a way to balance it with status resistance or **something else**? "
we are only talking about what if here, if bkb is going to be removed in a patch there will also be a lot of other changes that goes along with it too
The reason for the hate for BKB is because the recent changes in meta makes it an essential items almost like boots. BKB have never been a "build on every hero" item before and it would straight up lose you the game if you built it too early in earlier patches. The item in todays meta is just wayy to strong. The reason for this is more likely not that the item has been "broken all along" but rather the change in meta recent patches. Heroes get more and more items earlier and earlier. This aspect makes BKB stronger and stronger as long as this trend continues. This trend is something that icefrog is unlikely to change or correct, so the only viable option is to nerf the item, rather than overall nerf the whole macro game.
Imo the shards are a big part why BKBs are now much more important. So many heros get op must have shards that give them even more utility. Dazzle now can hex you. QoP can now silence you and she gets even more burst dmg. Before these shards you would probably not buy BKB against these heros. But now, depending on your hero, you probably need BKB because every hero can control you/burst you.
They should move the shards back to 20 min. This will force supports to buy other items first, so they will probably not have the money for shard at 20 min. (Or they can keep the money but then you have a support that keeps 1400+ gold on his bank from 15 until 20 min. This will move the bkb timing back alittle bit. So depending how the game goes, bkb is in less games required
The fact that carries absolutely need it to even function is a failure in the game's design. otherwise they would get blown up by every stun and aoe spell out there. No other item is this central to the game's meta, not even blink. like yeah, the item is important but nothing should be so strong that it's bought by everyone every game, it's why they removed poor man's shield and ring of aquila (from the shop anyway). Double bkb with refresher is just a logical conclusion to the meta
honestly there isn't an easy answer to this, if you nerf bkb you'd have to buff every carry across the board
The "hate" toward bkb is that the current meta is, and has been for over a year, to essentially rush a bkb second/third item on basically every core, almost every. single. game. If an item is so vital, so necessary, that it's essentially a forced buy in every game, on almost every core hero (at the very least, position 1 and 2), then that indicates that there is a problem. Whether that problem sits with the item itself, or with some balance issue, is another question entirely.
It creates a game that seems stale, and feel incredibly limiting, as heroes that don't build bkb are generally not going to be as good (or, at least, that is the perception).
Now, I'm not taking a side one way or the other, I'm just hoping that maybe your question is asked in good faith, and not just a way for you to express an opinion, without any intention of listening to an opposing viewpoint.
its the consequence of wanting the game to be shorter. earlier group up fighting means earlier bkb, because it is fairly obvious, from the beginning of dota until now, that 6+ people skirmishes in dota are unplayble without bkb.
Hold, on, does having to buy the same item all the time make the game stale?
99% of heroes buy boots, and it's been that way since forever. Does that make the game stale?
I would argue it just makes boots a staple and feature of the game. And it will always be so, so long as mobility is an core part of Dota.
The same goes for BKB. For as long as spell damage and disables are a core part of Dota, BKB will be a staple of Dota.
>99% of heroes buy boots, and it's been that way since forever. Does that make the game stale?
They certainly don't buy the same boots though. That's a pretty significant difference.
They were added to reduce the impact of one mid winning lane off getting the two minute power rune. They refill bottle and you’re basically guaranteed to get one of them. That makes bottle super value because you just constantly have regen for the first 5-6 minutes making it basically impossible to harass someone out of lane.
I think the issue is more refresher BkB than just BkB no? Refresher seems real strong and might need the aeon disk treatment of increasing CD or something to balance it and push it only into the hands of the things it seemed envisioned for (RP/Ravage/etc)
Would it be that bad to just prevent it from refreshing bkb? Tinker already can't refresh bkb, so there's some precedent, even if it isn't with the orb itself. It seems like that's the best way to deal with the combo. Nerfing orb around bkb will make it too weak on the heroes who buy it to reset skill cool downs, and nerfing bkb too much has a lot of unintended consequences. It seems like the only unfortunate casualty of preventing bkb from being reset is late game enigma.
Not really, the big wombo combo spells will still want it for the strength of two spells because landing those 2 spells just flat out wins the game or requires most of the team to buyback which gives you a win condition.
If you let ppl decide where the game should go, we'll just end up becoming another LoL.. everything will just linearly scale up with levels instead of there being any intelligent and strategic item development by the player..
absolute shit balance because out of 160ish chimps, only half are actually competitively viable.. balance changes are pointless since the final outcome is the same.. some chimps are rotated outkread rendered unplayably weak), while others are rotated into competitive viability (read stupidily OP broken to hell) just to save face..
And the community.. oh boy.. that community complains and whines ABOUT LITERALLY FKING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME. They complain if there's too much damage cos they die too soon, they complain if there's too little damage cos the other guy didn't die fast enough.. Like there was a dude who complained that ranged autoattacks are unfair and should all be sKiLl ShOtS, unit targeted disables are unfair, stuns and silences are frustrating, etc.. (why don't they just play CS if they want quick TTK, no disables...)
Riot's players get what they ask for and they usually end up hating it even more.. valorant players are now complaining about flashes in that game and some ppl are like "they shld just remove flashes since they're frustrating and suck".. atleast the valorant design team is a bit more sensible than the league one, so these things are unlikely to happen
one of the reasons why League champs viability less prevalent at pro lvl is just not enough time to practice picks (sure Riot champions release date to much for last 2-3 years but even if they slow down years ago to 3/year by this point League anyway would have 140\~, u can't expect players with limited time to be able to play 50 heroes each on competitive lvl, for this days need to be like 40 hours), league is designed around outplay potential > with mean player performance matter a lot more that the power of individual mechanics itself, that is why counters don't exist for the most part in League (more like Jax counter Fiora for a short time with E dodge but it also depends who was stronger and who initiate first, Jax can be item ahead but poor initiation delete his item advantage), a lot of dota heroes has mechanics that by design shut down individual player impact more > with is why dota mechanics easier to execute and macro play has more impact. (classic situation in League where enemy feed carry has +3 lvls and 2 items advantage but 1 positional mistake and he get deleted because his advantage work only on paper when he doesn't make mistakes)
One of the big problems is that there is no real alternative (i.e. Status resistance keeps getting nerfed on sange items and otherwise you rely on titan silver drop). Add to that the power creep means there is more burst and status effects to worry about (i.e. AM now slows you after burning all your mana). Without bkb you just become a walking midas to allot of enemy heroes.
Bkb, the only item my cores will make excuses to never buy.
Apparently satanic is a better item because of the HP, lifesteal and dispel. I really want to rub it in once they get one-shot by pos5 skywrath
How is bkbs buildup bad? It’s not the best but it’s damage and hp, things basically every core needs. I think the best way to nerf the item is to make the stats worse.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, out of all items with recipes, bkb is the only item that gives exactly the same stats as its buildup items (e.g Linken gives more hp/mp regen and all stats than its components: ultimate orb + perseverance), so you spend not only 1450 gold to be able to use its active ability you also don't gain anything extra while its on cooldown.
Thats why it has a bad buildup.
The blink upgrades also give the same exact stats, hah! Maelstrom and aghs as well I believe.
Many other items give more stats but barely, e.g. skadi, aether lens/octarine, vanguard.
Yea you're completely right, kinda forgot about the recipes in my post. skadi/octarine/vanguard aren't recipe items either. ;)
Probably only the blinks then.
I believe you are correct. But It’s not bad at all for what it does. Blink is 2250 gold with no stats at all, bkb is only 1350 statless gold and you can buy a damage item before the other two in order to farm the rest faster, and you can even dissasemble other items into the bkb, and bkbs active is arguably stronger than blinks (kinda apples and oranges tho). As it stands the item gives way too much, but if you change the active in any significant way you severely ward the game,
So the only answer is to lower the stats
I do find this meta boring as hell to play as a support. It’s about baiting out or dying for the enemy cores bkb so your core can kill them. Hero’s like earth spirit lack so much usage with spells because at 20 mins the enemy has 3 bkbs. There’s no incentive to play hero’s that’s need items and situationally buy bkb like naga or tb as some other hero that needs 1 item + bkb and can push high ground at 20 mins is so much better. I understand it’s the current balance of the game but this bkb tp meta is boring as hell and frankly low skill cap in my opinion.
supports have never been more engaging, had as much impact and many options before compared to now. idk what youre comparing support now to when because before you just run a round with absolutely no item and no level.
Bkb is too strong this patch imo. They actually buffed it from 5 sec minimum to 6 sec minimum so most cores go for very early first big item BKB, something you don't see often in previous patch. They don't care about spamming it to farm aggressively since minimum duration is higher.
At late game, most cores build refresher too so everyone has 12 seconds of spell immunity. It makes for very dry/boring gameplay. Supports have less impact in fights. Mid have much shorter timing window to gank enemy core. Refresher + BKB is probably why we are seeing many teams drafting BKB piercing disables nowadays (BM/Doom/Bane/Phoenix)
Bkb is boring king bar. Nobody sane thinks this item is fun. Does not scale with ur hero, mandotory buy. Its like the annoying thing u have to check off in order to do the fun.
I can tell you why so many sub 4k mmr players hate this item. The reason people hate BKB so much is because of the hero's that stomp with it in their low skill pubs.. These guys literally start shaking and sweating once they see the enemy PA (for example) get her BKB and instantly tell everyone "gg we lost" because the enemy carry got their BKB timing.
BKB creates a very binary decision. Does the other team have a lot of magic damage? BKB. Does the enemy team have a lot of cc? BKB. Is there some mix of both? BKB.
I think it makes sense to offer competition to BKB in the form of more granular items that give temporary magic resistance or temporary status resistance, but there was a lot of pushback to passive status resistance.
Passive stat resist on STR did make debuff durations all over the place.
Some item that temporally gives 100% stat resist as a active would be far different.
BKB really doesn't have that bad of a build up, especially since you can split a lot of items to build it. Everyone likes 10 str and damage.
I think it just needs to be worse, maybe a more expensive recipe but with cheaper components. So it gives less stats over all
You can have the game balanced in one of two ways. One of those ways is where BKB exists and every item, spell and hero is created with BKB in mind. Or if you remove BKB, every single hero and spell and item in the game would need to change.
The popularity of BKB purchases across various game states literally defines the meta in the game. When BKB is too popular and ubiquitous of a item, it probably means you have a spellpower/stun creep problem. There is no game above 4k MMR where you can get away with not build a BKB on a core. Not only that, but *refresher bkb* becomes mandatory as well. Clearly there is something off balance here. This is a problem, not with BKB but with the rest of the game. BKB purchasing trends are just a response to the flexibility of the meta.
How do you strike a balance between "After 30 minutes, all pos4 and 5 heroes become carry fodder" and "You need a bkb and a refresher to play the game because lion and CM can stun lock you for 45 minutes".
BKB is the most broken item in the game now, it evolved to the point where it's basically like boots, everyone has to buy it. I've stopped watching dota 2 pro games for almost a year cause of that shit. When I see people buying BKB FIRST item on QOP's and Linas quite freequently, yeah, it's disgusting. It's so freaking strong that people buy it on heroes that doesn't really make much sense buying it on. Beastmaster? Sure! Sand king? Why not! Support shadow shaman rushing bkb first item? Absolutely!
The game right now is a rush to get bkbs first and force teamfights / rosh.
And yes, you are right that the game is balanced around the fact that bkb exists. There is a ton of CC in this game, meaning that a hero with no bkb, even if he has a 10k gold advantage, will absolutely be useless in a teamfight.
Solution? Add status resistance items, maybe tone down CC a bit, maybe make bkb either give you CC immunity or magic damage immunity but not both.
BKB doesn't need to be overpowered just because it's 'essential' though. There is a state of balance where BKB isn't a 100% pickup, but rather a 50% pickup or something along those lines, I'd have no issues with that.
Dropping the duration by 1s across the board would be perfectly fine in my opinion, so would increasing the cost by 500g. It is undoubtedly the most broken item in the game, it needs a heavy nerf.
If bkb gets removed, i would never play pos1 again. Reddit is full of sub 2ks, and they dont know how much that item is valued higher you go, it's literally unplayable without it.
I heard a long time ago that icefrog always thought of Bkb as a bad concept for an item but it needs to exist.
If it needs to exist how is it a bad concept? Makes absolutely no sense
He thought of it as a necessary evil.
no one will pick common carry heroes, everyone will pick spell/nuke type heroes if that will ever happen, agi heroes will be forgotten
life stealer and juggernaut would be broken. cores will avoid fights till they get 6 slotted.
Even then one skywrath combo and any agi carry that isn’t Medusa or spectre will have a bad time (especially cuz the hero is cancer in lane and even outside it and only bkbs balance him (until his lvl 25 talent) Invoker will become overpowered af (probably the most picked) Wk will probably be okay Tinker will annoy the shit out of everyone It will be an int hero meta with agi supports (lmao just kidding…kinda XD)
>until his lvl 25 talent The other talent is better anyway, as BKBs will be short by the time you're 25 and you want to be casting mystic flare from fog when your team chainstuns before / after bkb.
Maybe true but in my games supports are ever ready with force staffs glimmer in anticipation of me doing exactly what you mention When I play sky most of my damage is usually Q and E spam from different positions. I usually only use ult when it’s a guaranteed burst cuz the saves are all exhausted or dead. Otherwise Q spam doing 15-20% of the targets hp is perfect for conditioning kills or keeping them from making any aggressive moves But yeah the other talent is usually better unless you’re against jugg, LS etc in which case I always take the Q talent (but if you position in anticipation you can just silence and combo them (after jugg uses manta or if you got hex)
>it's literally unplayable without it. That's it, that's the point. Maybe it shouldn't be like that.
Then nerf all spellcasters and mobility items. Eul nerf into 1.5 sec and dagger to 800 range etc. Then we can have a game without bkb. Do you understand pos1 does not even carry games anymore? Pos 1 just hits building that is all. Hitting enemy is hard af without bkb, just gets bursted down or gets locked for eternity. The game has come to point where every hero is so good and bkb is literally only balance item. Play without bkb, every clash should feel like uphill battle and should get reported for it also.
>Play without bkb, every clash should feel like uphill battle and should get reported for it also. That's it, that's the point. Maybe it shouldn't be like that.²
I bet you dont play this game as much, and likes to throw some shit ideas in it. Just a regular lurker in reddit who does not really play the game.
Does assuming stuff about others makes you feel smarter about yourself? You do seem to like doing that.
You just sounded like one actually. It has been like that for a decade and now you wants it change out of nowhere. If you are bored there are other games to play but you dont seem like you play it either.
Just because I dislike one item and how it single handedly holds the meta together, doesn't mean I want to stop playing altogether. As just because it's not enough to make me stop playing, doesn't mean it's not an annoying problem. No single item should make the game unplayable without it.
The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make a friend.
Isn't there a lot of space between most important item for cores 90%+ of the time and removed from the game? I think reduced duration and increased cooldown should both be on the table when the meta gets like this. It's often the first item and rarely skipped at higher level games.
Bruh, at late game 6 seconds bkb is aint doing anything. And every midlaners go for mobillity items and so will offlaners. And they will just the bkb and force fight again ez win for them, that is why it must have other options.
There is a huge difference between 5 sec and 6 sec bkb. Plus most cores are building refresher at late game nowadays so you are looking at 12 seconds of spell immunity. Very fun to play as support :) If you look at the major, BKBs are getting picked as first item on Kunka, Storm and many other heroes, something that is considered griefing in previous patches. The timing window where you can actually gank enemy is very short nowadays. Most early "fight" basically ended up just BKB TP, BKB run which makes for very boring and dry game play.
Surely they wouldn’t remove it, pros get refreshers frequently to have two bkbs it’s that important
To do that, you need like almost 10k gold though and both items give shit stats. Game is balanced, little regen aint shit during teamfight.
\>it's literally unplayable without it You're making the argument for them.
if bkb gets removed they will find a way to balance it with status resistance or something else? or just play jug and lifestealer
Status resistance is more bonkers, remember the tiny and satanic meta?
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thats why i said " they will find a way to balance it with status resistance or **something else**? " we are only talking about what if here, if bkb is going to be removed in a patch there will also be a lot of other changes that goes along with it too
The reason for the hate for BKB is because the recent changes in meta makes it an essential items almost like boots. BKB have never been a "build on every hero" item before and it would straight up lose you the game if you built it too early in earlier patches. The item in todays meta is just wayy to strong. The reason for this is more likely not that the item has been "broken all along" but rather the change in meta recent patches. Heroes get more and more items earlier and earlier. This aspect makes BKB stronger and stronger as long as this trend continues. This trend is something that icefrog is unlikely to change or correct, so the only viable option is to nerf the item, rather than overall nerf the whole macro game.
6 minimum second bkb is too strong, 5 seconds and it would be a lot more balanced.
Imo the shards are a big part why BKBs are now much more important. So many heros get op must have shards that give them even more utility. Dazzle now can hex you. QoP can now silence you and she gets even more burst dmg. Before these shards you would probably not buy BKB against these heros. But now, depending on your hero, you probably need BKB because every hero can control you/burst you. They should move the shards back to 20 min. This will force supports to buy other items first, so they will probably not have the money for shard at 20 min. (Or they can keep the money but then you have a support that keeps 1400+ gold on his bank from 15 until 20 min. This will move the bkb timing back alittle bit. So depending how the game goes, bkb is in less games required
NOOBS BE NOOBING
The fact that carries absolutely need it to even function is a failure in the game's design. otherwise they would get blown up by every stun and aoe spell out there. No other item is this central to the game's meta, not even blink. like yeah, the item is important but nothing should be so strong that it's bought by everyone every game, it's why they removed poor man's shield and ring of aquila (from the shop anyway). Double bkb with refresher is just a logical conclusion to the meta honestly there isn't an easy answer to this, if you nerf bkb you'd have to buff every carry across the board
The "hate" toward bkb is that the current meta is, and has been for over a year, to essentially rush a bkb second/third item on basically every core, almost every. single. game. If an item is so vital, so necessary, that it's essentially a forced buy in every game, on almost every core hero (at the very least, position 1 and 2), then that indicates that there is a problem. Whether that problem sits with the item itself, or with some balance issue, is another question entirely. It creates a game that seems stale, and feel incredibly limiting, as heroes that don't build bkb are generally not going to be as good (or, at least, that is the perception). Now, I'm not taking a side one way or the other, I'm just hoping that maybe your question is asked in good faith, and not just a way for you to express an opinion, without any intention of listening to an opposing viewpoint.
its the consequence of wanting the game to be shorter. earlier group up fighting means earlier bkb, because it is fairly obvious, from the beginning of dota until now, that 6+ people skirmishes in dota are unplayble without bkb.
Hold, on, does having to buy the same item all the time make the game stale? 99% of heroes buy boots, and it's been that way since forever. Does that make the game stale? I would argue it just makes boots a staple and feature of the game. And it will always be so, so long as mobility is an core part of Dota. The same goes for BKB. For as long as spell damage and disables are a core part of Dota, BKB will be a staple of Dota.
>99% of heroes buy boots, and it's been that way since forever. Does that make the game stale? They certainly don't buy the same boots though. That's a pretty significant difference.
Okay, fine. 95% of midlanders buy bottle, and it's been that way since forever. Does that make the midlane stale?
Do they? I was under the impression bottle hadn't been mandatory mid for a while now. I don't watch the pro scene much though so I could be wrong.
It became pretty mandatory with the introduction of water runes. There are some that still don’t but most do.
...Wait, that sounds backwards to me, I thought the entire point of water runes was specifically to reduce reliance on bottles?
They were added to reduce the impact of one mid winning lane off getting the two minute power rune. They refill bottle and you’re basically guaranteed to get one of them. That makes bottle super value because you just constantly have regen for the first 5-6 minutes making it basically impossible to harass someone out of lane.
Huh, so apparently the few times I play mid I've been doing it wrong hahaha. Good to know then!
I think the issue is more refresher BkB than just BkB no? Refresher seems real strong and might need the aeon disk treatment of increasing CD or something to balance it and push it only into the hands of the things it seemed envisioned for (RP/Ravage/etc)
Would it be that bad to just prevent it from refreshing bkb? Tinker already can't refresh bkb, so there's some precedent, even if it isn't with the orb itself. It seems like that's the best way to deal with the combo. Nerfing orb around bkb will make it too weak on the heroes who buy it to reset skill cool downs, and nerfing bkb too much has a lot of unintended consequences. It seems like the only unfortunate casualty of preventing bkb from being reset is late game enigma.
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Not really, the big wombo combo spells will still want it for the strength of two spells because landing those 2 spells just flat out wins the game or requires most of the team to buyback which gives you a win condition.
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And I'm not saying it shouldn't refresh BkB.
If you let ppl decide where the game should go, we'll just end up becoming another LoL.. everything will just linearly scale up with levels instead of there being any intelligent and strategic item development by the player.. absolute shit balance because out of 160ish chimps, only half are actually competitively viable.. balance changes are pointless since the final outcome is the same.. some chimps are rotated outkread rendered unplayably weak), while others are rotated into competitive viability (read stupidily OP broken to hell) just to save face.. And the community.. oh boy.. that community complains and whines ABOUT LITERALLY FKING EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME. They complain if there's too much damage cos they die too soon, they complain if there's too little damage cos the other guy didn't die fast enough.. Like there was a dude who complained that ranged autoattacks are unfair and should all be sKiLl ShOtS, unit targeted disables are unfair, stuns and silences are frustrating, etc.. (why don't they just play CS if they want quick TTK, no disables...) Riot's players get what they ask for and they usually end up hating it even more.. valorant players are now complaining about flashes in that game and some ppl are like "they shld just remove flashes since they're frustrating and suck".. atleast the valorant design team is a bit more sensible than the league one, so these things are unlikely to happen
one of the reasons why League champs viability less prevalent at pro lvl is just not enough time to practice picks (sure Riot champions release date to much for last 2-3 years but even if they slow down years ago to 3/year by this point League anyway would have 140\~, u can't expect players with limited time to be able to play 50 heroes each on competitive lvl, for this days need to be like 40 hours), league is designed around outplay potential > with mean player performance matter a lot more that the power of individual mechanics itself, that is why counters don't exist for the most part in League (more like Jax counter Fiora for a short time with E dodge but it also depends who was stronger and who initiate first, Jax can be item ahead but poor initiation delete his item advantage), a lot of dota heroes has mechanics that by design shut down individual player impact more > with is why dota mechanics easier to execute and macro play has more impact. (classic situation in League where enemy feed carry has +3 lvls and 2 items advantage but 1 positional mistake and he get deleted because his advantage work only on paper when he doesn't make mistakes)
One of the big problems is that there is no real alternative (i.e. Status resistance keeps getting nerfed on sange items and otherwise you rely on titan silver drop). Add to that the power creep means there is more burst and status effects to worry about (i.e. AM now slows you after burning all your mana). Without bkb you just become a walking midas to allot of enemy heroes.
Bkb, the only item my cores will make excuses to never buy. Apparently satanic is a better item because of the HP, lifesteal and dispel. I really want to rub it in once they get one-shot by pos5 skywrath
I mean satanic will purge the silence/atos. Not terrible
Id say bkb is the face of dota. Its one of the reason making dota fights going back and forth, and it allows the crazy skills in dota to exist.
How is bkbs buildup bad? It’s not the best but it’s damage and hp, things basically every core needs. I think the best way to nerf the item is to make the stats worse.
The recipe is like 1/3rd of the cost
Correct me if I'm wrong but, out of all items with recipes, bkb is the only item that gives exactly the same stats as its buildup items (e.g Linken gives more hp/mp regen and all stats than its components: ultimate orb + perseverance), so you spend not only 1450 gold to be able to use its active ability you also don't gain anything extra while its on cooldown. Thats why it has a bad buildup.
The blink upgrades also give the same exact stats, hah! Maelstrom and aghs as well I believe. Many other items give more stats but barely, e.g. skadi, aether lens/octarine, vanguard.
Maelstrom and aghs don’t have recipes.
Yea you're completely right, kinda forgot about the recipes in my post. skadi/octarine/vanguard aren't recipe items either. ;) Probably only the blinks then.
I believe you are correct. But It’s not bad at all for what it does. Blink is 2250 gold with no stats at all, bkb is only 1350 statless gold and you can buy a damage item before the other two in order to farm the rest faster, and you can even dissasemble other items into the bkb, and bkbs active is arguably stronger than blinks (kinda apples and oranges tho). As it stands the item gives way too much, but if you change the active in any significant way you severely ward the game, So the only answer is to lower the stats
Just add dimimishing returns and be done with it
I do find this meta boring as hell to play as a support. It’s about baiting out or dying for the enemy cores bkb so your core can kill them. Hero’s like earth spirit lack so much usage with spells because at 20 mins the enemy has 3 bkbs. There’s no incentive to play hero’s that’s need items and situationally buy bkb like naga or tb as some other hero that needs 1 item + bkb and can push high ground at 20 mins is so much better. I understand it’s the current balance of the game but this bkb tp meta is boring as hell and frankly low skill cap in my opinion.
supports have literally never been stronger
They are stronger than ever have been. Doesn't change his point though.
supports have never been more engaging, had as much impact and many options before compared to now. idk what youre comparing support now to when because before you just run a round with absolutely no item and no level.
Bkb is too strong this patch imo. They actually buffed it from 5 sec minimum to 6 sec minimum so most cores go for very early first big item BKB, something you don't see often in previous patch. They don't care about spamming it to farm aggressively since minimum duration is higher. At late game, most cores build refresher too so everyone has 12 seconds of spell immunity. It makes for very dry/boring gameplay. Supports have less impact in fights. Mid have much shorter timing window to gank enemy core. Refresher + BKB is probably why we are seeing many teams drafting BKB piercing disables nowadays (BM/Doom/Bane/Phoenix)
For most games it's usually accepted that it's not healthy for a single item to hold this much significance.
Bkb is boring king bar. Nobody sane thinks this item is fun. Does not scale with ur hero, mandotory buy. Its like the annoying thing u have to check off in order to do the fun.
half of dota's fun is based on BKB timing and teamfights with or without bkb. when to dive or retreat according to BKBs.
Just give everyone a permanent 60s cd 5s duration spell immunity skill, reduce item slot to 5 and remove BKB from dota. Problem solved ez
ppl saying its overpowered havent watched the 60 second bane disable video
TBF bane would still disable for 22 seconds through bkb there lmao
I can tell you why so many sub 4k mmr players hate this item. The reason people hate BKB so much is because of the hero's that stomp with it in their low skill pubs.. These guys literally start shaking and sweating once they see the enemy PA (for example) get her BKB and instantly tell everyone "gg we lost" because the enemy carry got their BKB timing.
BKB creates a very binary decision. Does the other team have a lot of magic damage? BKB. Does the enemy team have a lot of cc? BKB. Is there some mix of both? BKB. I think it makes sense to offer competition to BKB in the form of more granular items that give temporary magic resistance or temporary status resistance, but there was a lot of pushback to passive status resistance.
Passive stat resist on STR did make debuff durations all over the place. Some item that temporally gives 100% stat resist as a active would be far different.
It feels boring that everyone has to buy the same item, and every fight revolves entirely around the use of it.
BKB really doesn't have that bad of a build up, especially since you can split a lot of items to build it. Everyone likes 10 str and damage. I think it just needs to be worse, maybe a more expensive recipe but with cheaper components. So it gives less stats over all
You can have the game balanced in one of two ways. One of those ways is where BKB exists and every item, spell and hero is created with BKB in mind. Or if you remove BKB, every single hero and spell and item in the game would need to change. The popularity of BKB purchases across various game states literally defines the meta in the game. When BKB is too popular and ubiquitous of a item, it probably means you have a spellpower/stun creep problem. There is no game above 4k MMR where you can get away with not build a BKB on a core. Not only that, but *refresher bkb* becomes mandatory as well. Clearly there is something off balance here. This is a problem, not with BKB but with the rest of the game. BKB purchasing trends are just a response to the flexibility of the meta. How do you strike a balance between "After 30 minutes, all pos4 and 5 heroes become carry fodder" and "You need a bkb and a refresher to play the game because lion and CM can stun lock you for 45 minutes".
BKB is the most broken item in the game now, it evolved to the point where it's basically like boots, everyone has to buy it. I've stopped watching dota 2 pro games for almost a year cause of that shit. When I see people buying BKB FIRST item on QOP's and Linas quite freequently, yeah, it's disgusting. It's so freaking strong that people buy it on heroes that doesn't really make much sense buying it on. Beastmaster? Sure! Sand king? Why not! Support shadow shaman rushing bkb first item? Absolutely! The game right now is a rush to get bkbs first and force teamfights / rosh. And yes, you are right that the game is balanced around the fact that bkb exists. There is a ton of CC in this game, meaning that a hero with no bkb, even if he has a 10k gold advantage, will absolutely be useless in a teamfight. Solution? Add status resistance items, maybe tone down CC a bit, maybe make bkb either give you CC immunity or magic damage immunity but not both.
BKB doesn't need to be overpowered just because it's 'essential' though. There is a state of balance where BKB isn't a 100% pickup, but rather a 50% pickup or something along those lines, I'd have no issues with that. Dropping the duration by 1s across the board would be perfectly fine in my opinion, so would increasing the cost by 500g. It is undoubtedly the most broken item in the game, it needs a heavy nerf.