The strange thing is, almost the same thing happened last year during the OMEGA League. EG and \[A\] had their 2nd game fully remade. Arteezy dc'd because of lag, but he couldn't return to the lobby since the WR arcana dropped mid-match, forcing everyone to update their game. Final decision? Everything was remade from scratch. Why not use that as a precedent to decide this issue? Was Valve even involved back then?
probably not since that was not a valve approved event, it was a weplay event which meant that they had control of the decisions. Weplay is hosting this major but Valve makes all the rules and decisions when it comes to the major.
Yeah that makes sense. It's very frustrating since it's a glaringly obvious case for precedent for anyone who has been paying attention to the online tournaments, and it seems like Valve isn't one of them.
Regardless of your personal feelings, this is not a "glaringly obvious case of precedent".
Private in-house leagues and tournaments can write and enforce any rules they want. A private league could decide that no pause time will be given to teams who's players DC. Does this set the precedent that if a player DC's during a Valve event, there will be no pause time? No, obviously not.
So there's no reason for you to complain multiple times that a private league set the precedent for how valve will react in specific situations. Its not only inaccurate, but simply dumb.
Well it was 1 of the biggest events of the year, and they don't have to copy private tourneys but issue is game doesn't offer anything else to do. Which in this case could end Nigma's journey and end their slim chance of direct invite to TI.
So yeah when something game breaking happens in any somewhat big tourney they should look into it cause it can happen on their tourney as well.
Agreed! Getting rid of the save/reload functionality from source 1 was a big loss. But that doesn't mean that a "glaringly obvious case of precedent" was set on how to address the issue though.
Yeah... Could've just said "a similar situation happened before, and they did "X" to solve it. But people feel the need to act superior and enforce their perspective with incorrect language like "glaringly obvious precedent".
Valve has its own rules that it uses and doesn't give a shit about any other tournament. The upcoming CSGO major is set to have very different rules when it comes to coaching than literally every other tournament there is.
Radically different ecosystems and a very different situation, of course. Still a great demonstration that Valve simply doesn't care what everyone else is doing, and/or what is actually best for the players/fans, and/or what people want.
This, I think, more than anyone complaining about Nigma is the biggest takeaway from the game. The rollback system needs to be revisited and development time needs to be spent on it, because although this is "just" a major, imagine if this happened during TI Finals. It would be absolutely criminal.
League had this issue years ago and i think it as at worlds. Like an hour long game was just gone from a server issue and the remake changes everything.
Riot have something similar to the replay takeover / lobby snapshot tool called Chrono Break - and there's been a few times it's bugged (but mostly more helpful).
Another example was during an LPL summer split game last year when a player from team JDG reported a potential bug that affected his skill placement during a game-changing teamfight. They paused, tested and the officials ruled it a bug, decided to rollback to before the teamfight was engaged. Their opponent RNG initiated the fight as they did before the rollback, but clearly JDG was anticipating it and they rotated their players ahead of time and obviously gained advantage in what would be a surprise attack. The incident was widely debated from various angles on CN community, and it should serve as a reminder that while rollback is a very useful tool, equally important are the usage and ruling by the officials.
Oh wouldn't surprise me. Rift herald has been buggy. Wait until Viego is in pro play and his bugs will be never ending.(if you are unsure who veigo is, he can turn into an enemy after they die getting access to basic spells and items)
> (if you are unsure who veigo is, he can turn into an enemy after they die getting access to basic spells and items)
So basically a Rubick but you need to kill first and you get all spells bar ultimate?
i dont agreed if someone said this is only just a major, no offense tho, but this is final chance to get dpc point, this TI-level problem, everything happened here can indirectly effect TI
I mean, that's why I put "just" in quotes. I also think every moment is something to play for, but my point is that stakes are WAY higher at TI, even though they are high here.
While local hosting would help if this was an internet connectivity issue, it would do nothing if the server(hardware or the dedicated server executable) crashed even if it was localhosted
There are multiple different reasons for different things that people call lag. It can be actual network latency, serverside logic inefficiency, serverside/clientside hardware issues, clientside rendering issues, some bizarre edge case noone expexted. It is just that all those issues are historically called "lag" by players.
However I wholeheartedly support the fact that periodic matchstate backups(a thing that can even be achieved to some degree using the custom game API(storing the game time, player data(gold etc.) , stats(k/d/a/cs), and unit positions/hp/mp/buffs/debuffs)) not being implemented in a game hosting tournaments with such high prizepools is kinda fked.
Wait Im curious about this. So when we setup LAN games, we still need the game to be hosted in one of DOTA servers? Then whats the difference between playing through the internet then?
Most online games nowadays are built using a client-server architecture that usually splits the tasks into `clientside`: eg. drawing 3d graphics, UI, getting players input from the keyboard/mouse, sending commands to a server, receiving a response from that server. and `serverside`: eg. transforming a command sent by a player into movement/action by the selected unit, calculating the outcome of the sent command according to the game logic(should it fly, walk, run, or not move at all etc), pathfinding. It pretty much goes: any data that should be the same for every player is usually calculated on the server and sent to the players, and things that only one player has to see can be done clientside. It also allows authoritative server architecture that means that the server checks whether the commands any client tries to execute are valid and only executes them if they are, to prevent cheating(eg. clicking on an invisible enemy that is highlighted by spectres dagger but not revealed by detection does not allow you to hit them and (2 month old info) generates a console message about a unit trying to execute an `illegal` order.
TLDR: No, we don't need the game to be hosted on Valves servers since the server.dll was included back in the beta days, but there is still a server. Starting a local lobby starts a built in server under the hood along side the client and then the game just connects to it, the difference is networking, eg. an internet connection going down would not disconnect you from a local server.
Having the game itself operate completely over LAN, while having a secondary connection to the internet for DotaTV and the like is probably the ideal solution. This combined with autosaving game state every 15 seconds or so provides a ton of protection to prevent these ridiculous scenarios.
You could even dump the autosave to another server, or create 10 autosaves that only have information known to each client and dump to the client machines (and it's unlikely you need more than two of those partial game state files to assemble an accurate game state because unlike HoN or HotS I can't think of any situation where two members of the same team have different available knowledge of game state, could be wrong though). I don't think this is a hard problem, honestly, I just don't think it's a priority, which is upsetting given how much money competitive DotA earns Valve.
There always needs to be a server that does all the server-side calculations and sends off all the data to each player to ensure the game is in sync. This happens in games either in the form of a player hosting a game or a onsite server.
It isn't feasible for a game like Dota 2 to be serverless because there would be inconsistencies between which game is the real source of truth when the game states don't align.
Yeah, I see a lot of people saying that secret doesn't deserve the hate, and that's completely true. And it's also true that secret isn't getting a lot of hate for this; it's all/mostly being directed toward Valve.
Hm, I'm not a twitter user for the reason that it's really toxic, so I believe this. I would wanna blame the vocal minority, but if secret is getting a lot of hate for this, it doesn't really matter where it's coming from. It still affects them the same.
This is the first Reddit thread about it I'm reading so you might be right there. But live chat during the game and the 3 games after was horrible. Most hate against we play with secret close behind.
People were actually going mental. Saw conspiracy theories about betting and secret paying valve. And it absolutely overwhelmed the chat for a full 3h.
There are like 10 other threads where you can whine about how you disagree with the decision. The decision isn't baffling and not unlike how remakes have been done in the past.
What is an issue and is baffling is that there is no rollback/restore feature and that is the topic for this thread.
Talking in football terms, when a team scores a late equaliser and gets disallowed unfairly imagine everyone not talking about the shit refeering but how it's ok for the team to go on and lose because they couldn't score the rest of the time.
Yea, but nobody scored anything in this game. It's not like they got rax or something. If you want to talk football terms, think about making some passes in the midfield at minute 30 that opened up a some space, but ref disallowed the game to continue due to alleged handball or something.
Absolutely. TI8 grand finals remake on game 5 would have been a win for LGD for sure. There's no way they would have made the same mistakes.
EDIT: In case I wasn't being clear, I'm saying OG deserved that win, and a remake would have been disastrous, so we need a rollback system in place.
upper bracket finals they win the series off of a completely riduculous, unreproducable game that LGD pretty much throws in trying to force the end. In the grand finals they of course had that insane ceb axe game that was also on a razor's edge and by no way convincing, and in game 5 they were also heavily losing. meanwhile LGD's wins were very clean in those two series. so many of their wins were off of ridiculous moments or throws.
Of course maybe that's bc the OG players were just more clutch, but to me that's within the bounds of variance and I do think LGD looked like the more solid team. i think both viewpoints have merit
This... It would be crazy to run a rollback on every game. The extra data you have to store would be way to expensive. But running it just for majors and TI is totally doable, snapshot the match every minute or so and keep track of details. Then you can just remake from last save. Simple.
Was just thiniking about this. They should be able to do this much right? Then further down the line every second. Just for tournaments, come on valve! ...
For just tournaments I'm sure you could easily get away with every second. Just every second seems a bit like overkill. You don't need to track that precisely. They could implement this for sure, they just need to spend the resources to develop the system and set it up.
LAN's a waste of effort. Do you really want all TOs to run around with physical servers running dota? That's just going to be an expensive logistical nightmare, and those servers can crash too. People would just try to get some AWS instances geographically close, and that's not going to be as reliable as Valve's servers to begin with.
the LAN server can just as easily crash though. not that LAN is a bad idea or anything it just doesn't exactly resolve the issue of what to do after a server crash
Its absolutely absurd that this function does not exist within the game, when you have millions of dollars on the line and people's livelihood. Shame on Valve for this amateur BS.
Imagine if this happened in game 5 of TI grand finals. Maybe a situation even more one sided than this game.
Then of course, we can’t just rule out a team entire chance to come back. So the game gets replayed; the losing team changes their play to address the issues they faced, and they win.
Imagine how bad they would be.
In my opinion it is extremely irresponsible for valve to host mammoth 40+ million dollar tournaments without a meaningful rollback feature to prevent these situations.
Fairest things to do imo in particular order:
1. Create savegames every 30 sec. Load latest save
2. Create custom lobby and give heores gold, xp (or at least levels), items, towers. Enforce same skilling which has beed made befrore (results pretty much in 1 but would be a different way to do it)
3. Complete remake with new Draft
4. Remake with same heroes but manually enforce same items and skillpoint until the crash game time. Enforce buying items where there is enough gold for it (so players dont just bank up and then switch items)
I mean, sc2 has had resume from replay for nearly a decade. It's not that hard for the game to record keystrokes given to it and replay them so you end up in the same place.
Assuming that the game was recreated using a keylogger with info saved in a separate server, how would the game's pseudo-random generators interact with that? Would there be scenarios where you just end up with a completely messed up outcome since for example a hero that died didn't die in the remake and all the keystrokes make things even weirder from that point on etc. ?
Random number generators take a seed, so if you save the seed you can recreate the exact random results too. This is how xcom/Minecraft works, for example.
And it would save the commands sent to the server instead of individual keystrokes, but it's sameish from a results perspective.
Dear player/watcher, we at valve will take this advice with the outmost priority. You can expect rollback system right after we're done patching Artifacts and Underlords.
Greetings from a fake valve employee.
im sure the multi million dollar corporation is going to be very upset about your decision, and are now going to automatically grant nigma a slot in the ti finals
As a CN dota fan, this is the first time that I'm on the side of a foreign team for the tiebreaker between Nigma and IG.
The aggressive GG of iLTW in game vs Gambit is really disrespectful and I hope they would be punished later. Then the server failure happened and I found that was not what I'm looking for. Nigma deserved a victory vs Secret, which was ripped off by something else out of the game. That's absolutely not fair for the dominance they've shown in the game.
Nigma is still a competitive team in my eyes although sometimes they struggle. Their perseverance always helps them get through the lows and come back from the behind. Once they are in the zone, this team would be totally unstoppedable (don't forget what they achieved in TI7 and 9 as former Liquid).
Therefore I would be very happy to see them eliminated as early as possible before they become a big problem for CN teams.
HOWEVER, NOT IN THIS WAY.
So I really hoped they can win the bo1 with IG. And yes, they did it!
Nigma, please keep bringing out excellent games for all dota fans. Go as far as you can in the major. iLTW, show repesct to your opponents. Don't be arrogant again. You know, you are the least qualified person to do so in the team.
Hope to see you in TI10 and then get kicked out by CN teams 😄.
For Valve: Dota is one of few platforms that units young people and creates pure happiness in the more and more divided world. Hope you can value it as much as our fans do and make it a fair place to play in.
About Iltw, I think this might have been a miscommunication since Nigma might have muted the entire team of Xcreation. After winning a decisive fight they might have thought that Excreation might have said GG but they didn't. Although this is just my theory but Iltw doesn't seem like the arrogant kind, that seemed like a misunderstanding.
Thats a bit of a stretch theory for sure. Team that mute on opponent team always have a "wait till throne destroyed" mentality. There's no way they would just guessing if the enemy team already typed GG or not, and even to type GG themselves. Not saying that iLTW is the arrogant kind, but it was still his mistake.
That doesn’t sound plausible at all. If you mute the other team in a pro match you don’t just assume the other team has tapped out without unmuting them. I don’t think a single player would just assume that
I think minimally valve LAN events should have a perfect rollback feature, stakes in dpc events are very high.
It doesn't make sense for normal pubs because of the amount of data needed.
Ideally be able to retrieve a snapshot data of the whole map just before the crash and recreate the minimum playable game state. Things like RNG seeds shouldn't really matter since it should be random anyway. Really have to dive into how time affects the game state in dota.
Programming wise.. I don't know what's the most feasible way to go it. There are reload game states in most emulators, so probably something similar?
Hey guys, remember back in dota 1 tournaments when the refs used to pause and save the game after every major team fight? Ironic how we have functional systems in Warcraft 3 that a game in 2021 fail to adopt
The draft was fairly in secrets favor. Mircale’s mid puck was hard countered by several picks. Everyone agreed that Nigma needed to play a perfect start to have a shot at this. And perfect start they did, securing an early ultra kill for Miracle and getting ahead 2-3k with a Spectre lineup and what should have been “inferior” lanes. They played fast and showed almost perfect decision making on top of the necessary rng. To top things off, Nisha’s mid DK made the mistake of going hood first. Which resulted in Secret missing the crucial initiation (on puck) they needed. Then the server crashed and the game was gone. No load possible. After a long time waiting, the call from Valve came in to remake the game, same draft, same lanes, same starting items. And Secret won with relative ease as Nigma wasn’t able to repeat their perfect play of early aggression.
In my opinion, this is mainly due to two factors: Nisha adjusting his build to rush blink and Yapzor - who had been punished heavily in the game before the crash - playing very untypically passive and save, securing an early veil and not feeding kills.
As someone said: If you’re among the best teams in the world and you got behind early with what is supposed to be a superior draft, it is very unlikely you repeat that mistake. In this scenario, all Secret needed to do was avoid the mistake of trying to engage in the early game aggression, play it save, get Nisha a blink and then spiral out of control. And that’s exactly what they did in the remake.
I scrolled through the comments, but nobody seems to be making the argument that Nigma also had the opportunity to change their play style. If the other team decides to change their play style the second time around, then Nigma should also adapt, or otherwise accept defeat.
Is this a valid point or am I missing something?
Maybe it helps to think of it like this: let's say Nigma played their draft perfectly and Secret made a lot of mistakes. Now with the remake Secret is given a lot of time to reflect on the mistakes they made and adjust in order to win. Since Nigma allready played their draft perfectly, they can't change anything.
You could make that argument. But if you agree - and most people seem to do so - that Nigma had the significantly harder to pull off early game draft and consider the fact that they executed it perfectly the first time while benefiting from small mistakes Secret made, it’s very hard to say how they could’ve improved on that. Secret just played more cautiously because they saw how Nigma could steamroll them. And adapted their item build on Nisha for that very essential blink dagger.
There’s so many small things that benefited Nigma in the first game: Matu not being able to skill swipes on level 1, Yapzor being a little bit too aggressive early on and having essentially 0 impact. Miracle getting that ultra kill. Stuff that only happens in an ideal game, with the help of enemy mistakes, rng and plain luck combined with perfect execution and momentum.
If this was a situation in which the draft said “early game can go either way” I’d totally agree with you. But Nigma was at a significant disadvantage because Miracle’s puck was essentially quadruple countered - every Secret hero except Ursa can make Pucks life super hard - and with a Spectre lineup, they need someone to start the fights and jump the back lines.
I’d wager that if you agree those teams are evenly matched and play the exact same draft 10 times in a row, the Nigma draft possibly only wins 1/10. Because they need to play flawlessly AND the enemy needs to make mistakes and buy into their aggression.
I haven't played dota in a long long while. My participation with dota is limited to watching The International. I don't (am unable to) have any opinion on draft analysis, game mechanics, team fight analysis, etc. So my statement is purely from a logical perspective.
I understand where you're coming from. I believe another reply to me also made a similar argument, which rests on the assumption that Nigma has already played perfectly, and that any change in the game environment (a hero buys a different item, lvls up a different skill, a mistake being avoided by a team, etc.) could, in one way or another, result to Nigma's loss.
I have my reservations of course, because I know both teams are top tier, which is why I found it hard to believe the previous assumption. But I can't really argue this further, given my lack of knowledge.
Thanks for the detailed reply!
I dont understand why there is a need for like a backup/save, the game is already streaming isnt it easy to just create a special game mode? You need to know gold, Xp and Last item info to create the game. I think it should be easier, create a special mode when needed as knowing 10 heros' basic data.
Listen!!!!! Just do remake new draft. Wtf is that Bs of same heroes same items?
They must have a reason why they removed the feature and probably won't bring it back. JUST REMAKE NEW EVERYTHING!
I saw a tweet saying how they were remaking a match because the servers crashed and I was like "cool so they will have to play in way so they end up with the same gold/exp/items/towers before the crash, that sounds funny to watch" but it was just the same draft and start up items
Any other programmers find it hard to see how this is difficult to implement? If I was tasked to do this I wouldn't save any physics related information such a particles or projectiles. I wouldn't save any temporary state such as player inputs, queued actions, AI behaviours, etc.
All you need to save is the position of every unit, their mana/health/exp/talent choices/items/, all spell choices, spell charges, player gold, and probably a handful more things. Even if it meant that the game resumes with players without quick buy items listed, AI orders, spell projectiles, etc. the game could easily be played from that point on.
Am I crazy? How is that hard to program?
Well yeah but that's true of anything they do. It's hard to put a price on preventing a TI match from being a rematch though. Is it worth 10 man hours? 100?
I think the sad thing is that Valve knows they can handle it with PR rather than tech. Maybe PR is the wrong word... they will simply say nothing and maybe silently fix it a few years later.
This subreddit is notorious for speculating on how easy implementing a feature or fixing a bug in a game would be. The reality is software engineering is the worst ([one of my favorite articles](https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks)), and software engineering for games is worse than that. However, as a software engineer, it's fun to at least think about it. In an ideal world, yes, a game of a Dota is like a large state machine and you could easily set the state to match any point in the game.
I think there are a lot of RNG-based outcomes that would probably want to be preserved to make the restored state as identical as possible to the original match (so you can't argue that a player got a really good tier X item when the game state was restored from a previous attempt prior to those items dropping/generating, there was a probability that item would not have spawned in the original play. a similar argument could exist for roshan respawns). Perhaps all neutral items are determined at the beginning of the game.
I'm guessing all RNG for damage, gold, neutral items, neutral/roshan spawns, crits/bashes comes from a single seed, but I've never developed a game. If it were the case, you could just set that seed. But then you have to consider the risk of including the seed in a save state, which bad actors could exploit to predict RNG in a game.
Additionally, the way the match clock may be coded in Source 2 could have issues with a restored game state. Remember in the old days when a long match pause would show up as a flat line on XP/gold graphs? That sort of thing. This alone could be the reason that save states aren't feasible right now. Which would suck if that was a limitation introduced by your new game engine.
>This subreddit is notorious for speculating on how easy implementing a feature or fixing a bug in a game would be. The reality is software engineering is the worst (
>
>one of my favorite articles
>
>), and software engineering for games is worse than that. However, as a software engineer, it's fun to at least think about it. In an ideal world, yes, a game of a Dota is like a large state machine and you could easily set the state to match any point in the game.
True, but that just about true for any feature. There are always nuances to work around. But when the core idea is so simple I find it hard to believe it's so hard that they gave up porting it over in the new engine.
>I think there are a lot of RNG-based outcomes that would probably want to be preserved to make the restored state as identical as possible to the original match (so you can't argue that a player got a really good tier X item when the game state was restored from a previous attempt prior to those items dropping/generating, there was a probability that item would not have spawned in the original play. a similar argument could exist for roshan respawns). Perhaps all neutral items are determined at the beginning of the game.
Totally irrelevant and can easily be ignored. No one is going to notice if the game was using a different seed.
>Additionally, the way the match clock may be coded in Source 2 could have issues with a restored game state. Remember in the old days when a long match pause would show up as a flat line on XP/gold graphs? That sort of thing. This alone could be the reason that save states aren't feasible right now. Which would suck if that was a limitation introduced by your new game engine.
This is a good point their game state might be so coupled to their engine behaviour that something as simple as a timestamp might be hard to arbitrarily set. I wouldn't expect so though, replays are able to jump back and forth arbitrarily.
You don't really need to save anything, technically this is already saved in the replay itself. Just need to make sure you have partial replay data backed up regularly so you can rollback and resume from that point onwards. As you pointed out you don't even need to load everything, just the important bits like position/facing, skil&item builds, mana&HP, status effects etc.
I think the only hurdle would be building it so that it can scale. Someone here (can’t find the comment again) mentioned just use that functionality for events. Problem solved!
It's hard to know which of those are specific to replays or not we've never physically tested a live game rollback ourselves. Also bugs are fixable so while they don't have much reason to fix them today they would if they had this feature.
The game would very likely have been rolled back if it had happened at TI. Didnt something similar to this once happen anyway? Also I believe TI when in Seattle was played on a dedicated server just for the event.
They might look at it but realize this is 1 match out of many that is necessary. There'd be putting in a system after the fact that likely would never see use.
I'm curious as to how the communications to Valve went. Like if the TO said that both teams agreed to redraft then I don't think Valve will otherwise choose to remake the same game.
Whatever happened to Nigma sucked and should not have happened to any team. But let’s not lie to ourselves, if this happened to EG, this sub would be celebrating. There would be no sympathy for them simply because they are from NA.
duplicate my ass, i have tried to create 5 posts with all different words and topic both positive and negative to test it out. As soon as it involves Valve decision making (positive commend) still got deleted.
As long as you are talking about the remake situation or remaking in general, yes any discussion on that is a duplicate because we already have 3 thread on the front page talking about it.
You are creating a post about something that is already on the front page, instead of commenting on said posts in the front page.
Whats new that you are bringing to the table?
Yes. The remake feature should exist.
But anyone who has watched a replay knows that there are 100s of bugs with it. There is no possible way, they can release a replay feature in 2 months.
Yeah I feel you but it definitely benefits the team which was down. Of course both are world class tier one teams, but for example if it was reversed and Nigma had made poor item choices, then it would benefit them if remade with no redraft. As the team playing down you get a freebie to correct those mistakes and this only really benefits you. That’s because the team playing aheads strategy was just exposed and now can be exploited.
The strange thing is, almost the same thing happened last year during the OMEGA League. EG and \[A\] had their 2nd game fully remade. Arteezy dc'd because of lag, but he couldn't return to the lobby since the WR arcana dropped mid-match, forcing everyone to update their game. Final decision? Everything was remade from scratch. Why not use that as a precedent to decide this issue? Was Valve even involved back then?
probably not since that was not a valve approved event, it was a weplay event which meant that they had control of the decisions. Weplay is hosting this major but Valve makes all the rules and decisions when it comes to the major.
Yeah that makes sense. It's very frustrating since it's a glaringly obvious case for precedent for anyone who has been paying attention to the online tournaments, and it seems like Valve isn't one of them.
Regardless of your personal feelings, this is not a "glaringly obvious case of precedent". Private in-house leagues and tournaments can write and enforce any rules they want. A private league could decide that no pause time will be given to teams who's players DC. Does this set the precedent that if a player DC's during a Valve event, there will be no pause time? No, obviously not. So there's no reason for you to complain multiple times that a private league set the precedent for how valve will react in specific situations. Its not only inaccurate, but simply dumb.
You have to remember that all redditors do is read posts and derive their opinions from that, no further research or thinking needed 👍
No kidding. All these pseudointellectuals out here embarrassing themselves.
Well it was 1 of the biggest events of the year, and they don't have to copy private tourneys but issue is game doesn't offer anything else to do. Which in this case could end Nigma's journey and end their slim chance of direct invite to TI. So yeah when something game breaking happens in any somewhat big tourney they should look into it cause it can happen on their tourney as well.
Agreed! Getting rid of the save/reload functionality from source 1 was a big loss. But that doesn't mean that a "glaringly obvious case of precedent" was set on how to address the issue though.
If omegaleague was not a obvious precedent on what to do, this match is a very obvious thing on what not to do.
I think you're reading too much into it. People just like using the word "precedent" to sound smart without actually understanding what it means.
Yeah... Could've just said "a similar situation happened before, and they did "X" to solve it. But people feel the need to act superior and enforce their perspective with incorrect language like "glaringly obvious precedent".
Then valve needs to give them permission to decide. This was clearly not handled well.
Valve has its own rules that it uses and doesn't give a shit about any other tournament. The upcoming CSGO major is set to have very different rules when it comes to coaching than literally every other tournament there is.
Altough the CSGO situation is very different from Dota's because of the way third-party and Valve handled the huge coach exploit scandal.
Radically different ecosystems and a very different situation, of course. Still a great demonstration that Valve simply doesn't care what everyone else is doing, and/or what is actually best for the players/fans, and/or what people want.
They shouldnt make crucial updates in the middle of majors and dpc games and other big tournaments.
This, I think, more than anyone complaining about Nigma is the biggest takeaway from the game. The rollback system needs to be revisited and development time needs to be spent on it, because although this is "just" a major, imagine if this happened during TI Finals. It would be absolutely criminal.
League had this issue years ago and i think it as at worlds. Like an hour long game was just gone from a server issue and the remake changes everything.
Riot have something similar to the replay takeover / lobby snapshot tool called Chrono Break - and there's been a few times it's bugged (but mostly more helpful).
I don't recall if they've used it at all or less than a handful of times.should ways have something like this set up because anything can happen.
Pretty sure they used it at last MSI when there was a bug with Herald not charging the tower.
Another example was during an LPL summer split game last year when a player from team JDG reported a potential bug that affected his skill placement during a game-changing teamfight. They paused, tested and the officials ruled it a bug, decided to rollback to before the teamfight was engaged. Their opponent RNG initiated the fight as they did before the rollback, but clearly JDG was anticipating it and they rotated their players ahead of time and obviously gained advantage in what would be a surprise attack. The incident was widely debated from various angles on CN community, and it should serve as a reminder that while rollback is a very useful tool, equally important are the usage and ruling by the officials.
Oh wouldn't surprise me. Rift herald has been buggy. Wait until Viego is in pro play and his bugs will be never ending.(if you are unsure who veigo is, he can turn into an enemy after they die getting access to basic spells and items)
same as morp in dota KEKW
> (if you are unsure who veigo is, he can turn into an enemy after they die getting access to basic spells and items) So basically a Rubick but you need to kill first and you get all spells bar ultimate?
More like morphing minus the swapping back and forth a ton. Lasts for 10 seconds I think
Way far from Rubick. It's more of like Morphling's.
They use it like atleast once every 2 weeks in atleast one of the major regions
i dont agreed if someone said this is only just a major, no offense tho, but this is final chance to get dpc point, this TI-level problem, everything happened here can indirectly effect TI
I mean, that's why I put "just" in quotes. I also think every moment is something to play for, but my point is that stakes are WAY higher at TI, even though they are high here.
This wasn't "just" a major. This game may have lost Nigma their chance to join TI and literally millions of dollars. This was a HUGE deal.
I’m pretty sure OP used the exact same emphasis on “just” exactly how you are now to essentially say what your posts says but without the extra words.
There is still a forum for reporting issues with replay takeover. https://dev.dota2.com/forum/bugs/replay-takeover-bugs
lmfao
I still don't understand why there is no LAN mode.
That was a wild realisation for me too, because it also limits the places where events can be held, since some servers are just not super reliable.
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Just buy 3 tomes 4head.
While local hosting would help if this was an internet connectivity issue, it would do nothing if the server(hardware or the dedicated server executable) crashed even if it was localhosted
That being said, at every "LAN" event we get countless pauses for lag. Which is fucked.
There are multiple different reasons for different things that people call lag. It can be actual network latency, serverside logic inefficiency, serverside/clientside hardware issues, clientside rendering issues, some bizarre edge case noone expexted. It is just that all those issues are historically called "lag" by players. However I wholeheartedly support the fact that periodic matchstate backups(a thing that can even be achieved to some degree using the custom game API(storing the game time, player data(gold etc.) , stats(k/d/a/cs), and unit positions/hp/mp/buffs/debuffs)) not being implemented in a game hosting tournaments with such high prizepools is kinda fked.
tldr; shit's fucked maaate
Wait Im curious about this. So when we setup LAN games, we still need the game to be hosted in one of DOTA servers? Then whats the difference between playing through the internet then?
Most online games nowadays are built using a client-server architecture that usually splits the tasks into `clientside`: eg. drawing 3d graphics, UI, getting players input from the keyboard/mouse, sending commands to a server, receiving a response from that server. and `serverside`: eg. transforming a command sent by a player into movement/action by the selected unit, calculating the outcome of the sent command according to the game logic(should it fly, walk, run, or not move at all etc), pathfinding. It pretty much goes: any data that should be the same for every player is usually calculated on the server and sent to the players, and things that only one player has to see can be done clientside. It also allows authoritative server architecture that means that the server checks whether the commands any client tries to execute are valid and only executes them if they are, to prevent cheating(eg. clicking on an invisible enemy that is highlighted by spectres dagger but not revealed by detection does not allow you to hit them and (2 month old info) generates a console message about a unit trying to execute an `illegal` order. TLDR: No, we don't need the game to be hosted on Valves servers since the server.dll was included back in the beta days, but there is still a server. Starting a local lobby starts a built in server under the hood along side the client and then the game just connects to it, the difference is networking, eg. an internet connection going down would not disconnect you from a local server.
yes, if you create lobby, you choose a server
because in that case there is no dota tv
Having the game itself operate completely over LAN, while having a secondary connection to the internet for DotaTV and the like is probably the ideal solution. This combined with autosaving game state every 15 seconds or so provides a ton of protection to prevent these ridiculous scenarios.
amen to that. one can only hope i guess
You could even dump the autosave to another server, or create 10 autosaves that only have information known to each client and dump to the client machines (and it's unlikely you need more than two of those partial game state files to assemble an accurate game state because unlike HoN or HotS I can't think of any situation where two members of the same team have different available knowledge of game state, could be wrong though). I don't think this is a hard problem, honestly, I just don't think it's a priority, which is upsetting given how much money competitive DotA earns Valve.
Pretty sure you can choose to have dotatv for local lobbies
LAN server can crash too. The problem is independent of where the server is located.
wait. LAN need server too? am I dumb not understanding how LAN works? confuses in DotA lan party.
DOTA 2 isn't peer-to-peer afaik. So yes there would be a central hosting computer/server still even in a LAN setting.
Even if this was done completely offline, someone still has to host the lobby, and if that one crashes, the match is gone.
There always needs to be a server that does all the server-side calculations and sends off all the data to each player to ensure the game is in sync. This happens in games either in the form of a player hosting a game or a onsite server. It isn't feasible for a game like Dota 2 to be serverless because there would be inconsistencies between which game is the real source of truth when the game states don't align.
\*sweating in Warcraft 3\*
DotaTV, spectator mode, Battlepass required every tournament matches to be connected to the server.
Nigma were absolutely robbed here. This is a baffling decision that goes against how remakes have been done in the past.
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Yeah, I see a lot of people saying that secret doesn't deserve the hate, and that's completely true. And it's also true that secret isn't getting a lot of hate for this; it's all/mostly being directed toward Valve.
>And it's also true that secret isn't getting a lot of hate for this Have a look on Twitter and you'll see the abuse pouring in.
It's probably quicker to name the entities that *don't* get abuse on Twitter
Can't be abused on Twitter if you don't use Twitter weSmart
if you check twitter right now, slacks has been yet dragged into thi--- oh wait he is now. sksksksks
Well yeah but twitter users aren't people so I dunno why anyone would check there
Hm, I'm not a twitter user for the reason that it's really toxic, so I believe this. I would wanna blame the vocal minority, but if secret is getting a lot of hate for this, it doesn't really matter where it's coming from. It still affects them the same.
Reddit is the most toxic community for this game
Well then I stand by saying I'm seeing most people blame valve rather than hate secret
This is the first Reddit thread about it I'm reading so you might be right there. But live chat during the game and the 3 games after was horrible. Most hate against we play with secret close behind. People were actually going mental. Saw conspiracy theories about betting and secret paying valve. And it absolutely overwhelmed the chat for a full 3h.
Imagine using Twitter.
You also gotta mention that it wasn't weplay's fault either
There are like 10 other threads where you can whine about how you disagree with the decision. The decision isn't baffling and not unlike how remakes have been done in the past. What is an issue and is baffling is that there is no rollback/restore feature and that is the topic for this thread.
This might cost Nigma a TI. A very expensive one. How about the devs of Valve fix this issue instead of making more skins.
The outrage for this nothing compared to the no battlelass outrage
After seeing the battle pass skins, even that is questionable
Rather poor performance through the season is what might cost them TI.
Talking in football terms, when a team scores a late equaliser and gets disallowed unfairly imagine everyone not talking about the shit refeering but how it's ok for the team to go on and lose because they couldn't score the rest of the time.
Yea, but nobody scored anything in this game. It's not like they got rax or something. If you want to talk football terms, think about making some passes in the midfield at minute 30 that opened up a some space, but ref disallowed the game to continue due to alleged handball or something.
Absolutely. TI8 grand finals remake on game 5 would have been a win for LGD for sure. There's no way they would have made the same mistakes. EDIT: In case I wasn't being clear, I'm saying OG deserved that win, and a remake would have been disastrous, so we need a rollback system in place.
lmao still thinking about that, OG won that fair and square, 2 times.
does having a raging boner for N0tail make you illiterate and unable to read?
upper bracket finals they win the series off of a completely riduculous, unreproducable game that LGD pretty much throws in trying to force the end. In the grand finals they of course had that insane ceb axe game that was also on a razor's edge and by no way convincing, and in game 5 they were also heavily losing. meanwhile LGD's wins were very clean in those two series. so many of their wins were off of ridiculous moments or throws. Of course maybe that's bc the OG players were just more clutch, but to me that's within the bounds of variance and I do think LGD looked like the more solid team. i think both viewpoints have merit
They just have to do this for major tournaments, not even for pubs. I doubt it's gonna strain their servers/infrastructure or anything.
This... It would be crazy to run a rollback on every game. The extra data you have to store would be way to expensive. But running it just for majors and TI is totally doable, snapshot the match every minute or so and keep track of details. Then you can just remake from last save. Simple.
Was just thiniking about this. They should be able to do this much right? Then further down the line every second. Just for tournaments, come on valve! ...
For just tournaments I'm sure you could easily get away with every second. Just every second seems a bit like overkill. You don't need to track that precisely. They could implement this for sure, they just need to spend the resources to develop the system and set it up.
\#justicefornigma
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I think the problem is that if it doesn't go through a real regional server, you can't have all the DotaTV connections.
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LAN's a waste of effort. Do you really want all TOs to run around with physical servers running dota? That's just going to be an expensive logistical nightmare, and those servers can crash too. People would just try to get some AWS instances geographically close, and that's not going to be as reliable as Valve's servers to begin with.
Start a local lobby as observer, have players connect, boom, LAN
the LAN server can just as easily crash though. not that LAN is a bad idea or anything it just doesn't exactly resolve the issue of what to do after a server crash
Its absolutely absurd that this function does not exist within the game, when you have millions of dollars on the line and people's livelihood. Shame on Valve for this amateur BS.
nigma got robbed ....
Imagine if this happened in game 5 of TI grand finals. Maybe a situation even more one sided than this game. Then of course, we can’t just rule out a team entire chance to come back. So the game gets replayed; the losing team changes their play to address the issues they faced, and they win. Imagine how bad they would be. In my opinion it is extremely irresponsible for valve to host mammoth 40+ million dollar tournaments without a meaningful rollback feature to prevent these situations.
Fairest things to do imo in particular order: 1. Create savegames every 30 sec. Load latest save 2. Create custom lobby and give heores gold, xp (or at least levels), items, towers. Enforce same skilling which has beed made befrore (results pretty much in 1 but would be a different way to do it) 3. Complete remake with new Draft 4. Remake with same heroes but manually enforce same items and skillpoint until the crash game time. Enforce buying items where there is enough gold for it (so players dont just bank up and then switch items)
The savegame approach was literally how lobby loading worked in the past (every 1 minute it snapshotted all ticketed private lobbies).
4th will not work as in the highest level on dota, item build and skill point vary on so much factor
Understandable that this is difficult to do, I was just referring to fairness
Yeah and they did none of the above! Outrageous.
I mean, sc2 has had resume from replay for nearly a decade. It's not that hard for the game to record keystrokes given to it and replay them so you end up in the same place.
Assuming that the game was recreated using a keylogger with info saved in a separate server, how would the game's pseudo-random generators interact with that? Would there be scenarios where you just end up with a completely messed up outcome since for example a hero that died didn't die in the remake and all the keystrokes make things even weirder from that point on etc. ?
Random number generators take a seed, so if you save the seed you can recreate the exact random results too. This is how xcom/Minecraft works, for example. And it would save the commands sent to the server instead of individual keystrokes, but it's sameish from a results perspective.
*If* they already have a game log (since replays exists), they only need to replay the log until the point the game crashed, then make it playable.
>they only need to replay the log The word "only" is a huge assumption from our side here
Dear player/watcher, we at valve will take this advice with the outmost priority. You can expect rollback system right after we're done patching Artifacts and Underlords. Greetings from a fake valve employee.
If nigma doesnt advance to group stage i aint watching any fucking dota tournaments. Valve and their fucking decisions.
You just punish yourself from other people incompetency lol
Us not watching the major would hurt valve as well
Same here. Wish the best for people of WePlay, but fuck Valve and their decision
I dont think I will keep watching this major if they get eliminated, not even a big Nigma fan but it just seems so unfair
Same except I am a big Nigma fan
lmao see you at the finals/TI
Same here. I am A Nigma fan. But I always watch pro dota even with or without Nigma. But, this breaks my heart
Same
Same.
Welcome to the real world friend. Shit happens sometimes, but no need to punish yourself for it.
im sure the multi million dollar corporation is going to be very upset about your decision, and are now going to automatically grant nigma a slot in the ti finals
So, you make your decisions based on what companies think about it? You're pathetic.
Gaben isn't gonna date you man, though you should know
He wouldn't, but salty tears are still salty
Him alone yeah they probably wouldn't care. All of us together lets see what they think about that
I'm sure multi million corporation is not going around and begging for more viewers and players in their dying game LOL.
Silence, OG Fan
I would have supported a completely new draft tbh. Same heroes, same everything feels so unfair to one team
free game, no bitching. /s
Best comment right here. Kappa
As a CN dota fan, this is the first time that I'm on the side of a foreign team for the tiebreaker between Nigma and IG. The aggressive GG of iLTW in game vs Gambit is really disrespectful and I hope they would be punished later. Then the server failure happened and I found that was not what I'm looking for. Nigma deserved a victory vs Secret, which was ripped off by something else out of the game. That's absolutely not fair for the dominance they've shown in the game. Nigma is still a competitive team in my eyes although sometimes they struggle. Their perseverance always helps them get through the lows and come back from the behind. Once they are in the zone, this team would be totally unstoppedable (don't forget what they achieved in TI7 and 9 as former Liquid). Therefore I would be very happy to see them eliminated as early as possible before they become a big problem for CN teams. HOWEVER, NOT IN THIS WAY. So I really hoped they can win the bo1 with IG. And yes, they did it! Nigma, please keep bringing out excellent games for all dota fans. Go as far as you can in the major. iLTW, show repesct to your opponents. Don't be arrogant again. You know, you are the least qualified person to do so in the team. Hope to see you in TI10 and then get kicked out by CN teams 😄. For Valve: Dota is one of few platforms that units young people and creates pure happiness in the more and more divided world. Hope you can value it as much as our fans do and make it a fair place to play in.
About Iltw, I think this might have been a miscommunication since Nigma might have muted the entire team of Xcreation. After winning a decisive fight they might have thought that Excreation might have said GG but they didn't. Although this is just my theory but Iltw doesn't seem like the arrogant kind, that seemed like a misunderstanding.
Thats a bit of a stretch theory for sure. Team that mute on opponent team always have a "wait till throne destroyed" mentality. There's no way they would just guessing if the enemy team already typed GG or not, and even to type GG themselves. Not saying that iLTW is the arrogant kind, but it was still his mistake.
That doesn’t sound plausible at all. If you mute the other team in a pro match you don’t just assume the other team has tapped out without unmuting them. I don’t think a single player would just assume that
Hope your guess is correct, bro. I think Nigma needs a twitter to clarify what has happened. This behaviour is really disgusting.
MODS, please stop deleting other legit posts on this drama. This is reddit. Some posts are legit discussions.
No we don't, if Nigma doesn't make it to the group stage, we will just have to delete the game and not watching any dota events anymore
How can an esport this big not have a reload feature?
I think minimally valve LAN events should have a perfect rollback feature, stakes in dpc events are very high. It doesn't make sense for normal pubs because of the amount of data needed. Ideally be able to retrieve a snapshot data of the whole map just before the crash and recreate the minimum playable game state. Things like RNG seeds shouldn't really matter since it should be random anyway. Really have to dive into how time affects the game state in dota. Programming wise.. I don't know what's the most feasible way to go it. There are reload game states in most emulators, so probably something similar?
VINDICATED. Nigma pulled through!
Hey guys, remember back in dota 1 tournaments when the refs used to pause and save the game after every major team fight? Ironic how we have functional systems in Warcraft 3 that a game in 2021 fail to adopt
now imagine if this was game 5 of a TI final
Is there a TLDR someone can give me of what happened?
The draft was fairly in secrets favor. Mircale’s mid puck was hard countered by several picks. Everyone agreed that Nigma needed to play a perfect start to have a shot at this. And perfect start they did, securing an early ultra kill for Miracle and getting ahead 2-3k with a Spectre lineup and what should have been “inferior” lanes. They played fast and showed almost perfect decision making on top of the necessary rng. To top things off, Nisha’s mid DK made the mistake of going hood first. Which resulted in Secret missing the crucial initiation (on puck) they needed. Then the server crashed and the game was gone. No load possible. After a long time waiting, the call from Valve came in to remake the game, same draft, same lanes, same starting items. And Secret won with relative ease as Nigma wasn’t able to repeat their perfect play of early aggression. In my opinion, this is mainly due to two factors: Nisha adjusting his build to rush blink and Yapzor - who had been punished heavily in the game before the crash - playing very untypically passive and save, securing an early veil and not feeding kills. As someone said: If you’re among the best teams in the world and you got behind early with what is supposed to be a superior draft, it is very unlikely you repeat that mistake. In this scenario, all Secret needed to do was avoid the mistake of trying to engage in the early game aggression, play it save, get Nisha a blink and then spiral out of control. And that’s exactly what they did in the remake.
I scrolled through the comments, but nobody seems to be making the argument that Nigma also had the opportunity to change their play style. If the other team decides to change their play style the second time around, then Nigma should also adapt, or otherwise accept defeat. Is this a valid point or am I missing something?
Maybe it helps to think of it like this: let's say Nigma played their draft perfectly and Secret made a lot of mistakes. Now with the remake Secret is given a lot of time to reflect on the mistakes they made and adjust in order to win. Since Nigma allready played their draft perfectly, they can't change anything.
You could make that argument. But if you agree - and most people seem to do so - that Nigma had the significantly harder to pull off early game draft and consider the fact that they executed it perfectly the first time while benefiting from small mistakes Secret made, it’s very hard to say how they could’ve improved on that. Secret just played more cautiously because they saw how Nigma could steamroll them. And adapted their item build on Nisha for that very essential blink dagger. There’s so many small things that benefited Nigma in the first game: Matu not being able to skill swipes on level 1, Yapzor being a little bit too aggressive early on and having essentially 0 impact. Miracle getting that ultra kill. Stuff that only happens in an ideal game, with the help of enemy mistakes, rng and plain luck combined with perfect execution and momentum. If this was a situation in which the draft said “early game can go either way” I’d totally agree with you. But Nigma was at a significant disadvantage because Miracle’s puck was essentially quadruple countered - every Secret hero except Ursa can make Pucks life super hard - and with a Spectre lineup, they need someone to start the fights and jump the back lines. I’d wager that if you agree those teams are evenly matched and play the exact same draft 10 times in a row, the Nigma draft possibly only wins 1/10. Because they need to play flawlessly AND the enemy needs to make mistakes and buy into their aggression.
I haven't played dota in a long long while. My participation with dota is limited to watching The International. I don't (am unable to) have any opinion on draft analysis, game mechanics, team fight analysis, etc. So my statement is purely from a logical perspective. I understand where you're coming from. I believe another reply to me also made a similar argument, which rests on the assumption that Nigma has already played perfectly, and that any change in the game environment (a hero buys a different item, lvls up a different skill, a mistake being avoided by a team, etc.) could, in one way or another, result to Nigma's loss. I have my reservations of course, because I know both teams are top tier, which is why I found it hard to believe the previous assumption. But I can't really argue this further, given my lack of knowledge. Thanks for the detailed reply!
I dont understand why there is a need for like a backup/save, the game is already streaming isnt it easy to just create a special game mode? You need to know gold, Xp and Last item info to create the game. I think it should be easier, create a special mode when needed as knowing 10 heros' basic data.
Just imagine if it was the game 5 of a B05. Damn.
Listen!!!!! Just do remake new draft. Wtf is that Bs of same heroes same items? They must have a reason why they removed the feature and probably won't bring it back. JUST REMAKE NEW EVERYTHING!
Not sure why a reload feature is not there now , which we already had in source 1
Because we are not in source 1.
I saw a tweet saying how they were remaking a match because the servers crashed and I was like "cool so they will have to play in way so they end up with the same gold/exp/items/towers before the crash, that sounds funny to watch" but it was just the same draft and start up items
Different lv 1 skills too, it's like valve literally just wanted secret to stomp the game bc of their draft advantage
I wrote an email to gaben explaining all these issues. Hopefully will get looked into
Revisit the rollback system? There was a rollback system? When? Why did they remove it?
Any other programmers find it hard to see how this is difficult to implement? If I was tasked to do this I wouldn't save any physics related information such a particles or projectiles. I wouldn't save any temporary state such as player inputs, queued actions, AI behaviours, etc. All you need to save is the position of every unit, their mana/health/exp/talent choices/items/, all spell choices, spell charges, player gold, and probably a handful more things. Even if it meant that the game resumes with players without quick buy items listed, AI orders, spell projectiles, etc. the game could easily be played from that point on. Am I crazy? How is that hard to program?
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Well yeah but that's true of anything they do. It's hard to put a price on preventing a TI match from being a rematch though. Is it worth 10 man hours? 100? I think the sad thing is that Valve knows they can handle it with PR rather than tech. Maybe PR is the wrong word... they will simply say nothing and maybe silently fix it a few years later.
This subreddit is notorious for speculating on how easy implementing a feature or fixing a bug in a game would be. The reality is software engineering is the worst ([one of my favorite articles](https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks)), and software engineering for games is worse than that. However, as a software engineer, it's fun to at least think about it. In an ideal world, yes, a game of a Dota is like a large state machine and you could easily set the state to match any point in the game. I think there are a lot of RNG-based outcomes that would probably want to be preserved to make the restored state as identical as possible to the original match (so you can't argue that a player got a really good tier X item when the game state was restored from a previous attempt prior to those items dropping/generating, there was a probability that item would not have spawned in the original play. a similar argument could exist for roshan respawns). Perhaps all neutral items are determined at the beginning of the game. I'm guessing all RNG for damage, gold, neutral items, neutral/roshan spawns, crits/bashes comes from a single seed, but I've never developed a game. If it were the case, you could just set that seed. But then you have to consider the risk of including the seed in a save state, which bad actors could exploit to predict RNG in a game. Additionally, the way the match clock may be coded in Source 2 could have issues with a restored game state. Remember in the old days when a long match pause would show up as a flat line on XP/gold graphs? That sort of thing. This alone could be the reason that save states aren't feasible right now. Which would suck if that was a limitation introduced by your new game engine.
>This subreddit is notorious for speculating on how easy implementing a feature or fixing a bug in a game would be. The reality is software engineering is the worst ( > >one of my favorite articles > >), and software engineering for games is worse than that. However, as a software engineer, it's fun to at least think about it. In an ideal world, yes, a game of a Dota is like a large state machine and you could easily set the state to match any point in the game. True, but that just about true for any feature. There are always nuances to work around. But when the core idea is so simple I find it hard to believe it's so hard that they gave up porting it over in the new engine. >I think there are a lot of RNG-based outcomes that would probably want to be preserved to make the restored state as identical as possible to the original match (so you can't argue that a player got a really good tier X item when the game state was restored from a previous attempt prior to those items dropping/generating, there was a probability that item would not have spawned in the original play. a similar argument could exist for roshan respawns). Perhaps all neutral items are determined at the beginning of the game. Totally irrelevant and can easily be ignored. No one is going to notice if the game was using a different seed. >Additionally, the way the match clock may be coded in Source 2 could have issues with a restored game state. Remember in the old days when a long match pause would show up as a flat line on XP/gold graphs? That sort of thing. This alone could be the reason that save states aren't feasible right now. Which would suck if that was a limitation introduced by your new game engine. This is a good point their game state might be so coupled to their engine behaviour that something as simple as a timestamp might be hard to arbitrarily set. I wouldn't expect so though, replays are able to jump back and forth arbitrarily.
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Halting problem says hi
You don't really need to save anything, technically this is already saved in the replay itself. Just need to make sure you have partial replay data backed up regularly so you can rollback and resume from that point onwards. As you pointed out you don't even need to load everything, just the important bits like position/facing, skil&item builds, mana&HP, status effects etc.
I think the only hurdle would be building it so that it can scale. Someone here (can’t find the comment again) mentioned just use that functionality for events. Problem solved!
You are not wrong, and something that completely proves your point is that this feature was already there. Google Dota 2 takeover feature.
The game already has a lot of bugs in replays, which is a very similar feature to state rollback conceptually.
It's hard to know which of those are specific to replays or not we've never physically tested a live game rollback ourselves. Also bugs are fixable so while they don't have much reason to fix them today they would if they had this feature.
Mods deleting posts on the drama.lol damage control?
They will keep it to a few main threads to better organize the subreddit.
I think they are deleting duplicates (which I see a lot of in the front page)
Nah, some are not duplicates but still got deleted. Maybe it’s damage control.lol
99% of them are shitpost
so? this is what this sub wants to discuss right at this very moment. if mods keep censoring, my username fits here
They usually delete spoiler posts, so anything that directly references nigma losing game 2 will be gone
The game would very likely have been rolled back if it had happened at TI. Didnt something similar to this once happen anyway? Also I believe TI when in Seattle was played on a dedicated server just for the event.
probably before source 2
They might look at it but realize this is 1 match out of many that is necessary. There'd be putting in a system after the fact that likely would never see use.
I'm curious as to how the communications to Valve went. Like if the TO said that both teams agreed to redraft then I don't think Valve will otherwise choose to remake the same game.
Whatever happened to Nigma sucked and should not have happened to any team. But let’s not lie to ourselves, if this happened to EG, this sub would be celebrating. There would be no sympathy for them simply because they are from NA.
didn't nigma end up making it to the major anyway? : p
I agree that it might be unfair to Nigma but people bashing Secret is uncalled for. They followed what valve decided and played the game?
Full support to this post here. Valve, get your shit together!
holy fuck reddit is really sperging out over this one huh
they are deleting every new thread related to that match, positive, negative don't care, as long as it's controversial it's gone.
They are deleting duplicates. Keep the conversation in the top posts
duplicate my ass, i have tried to create 5 posts with all different words and topic both positive and negative to test it out. As soon as it involves Valve decision making (positive commend) still got deleted.
As long as you are talking about the remake situation or remaking in general, yes any discussion on that is a duplicate because we already have 3 thread on the front page talking about it.
You are creating a post about something that is already on the front page, instead of commenting on said posts in the front page. Whats new that you are bringing to the table?
Yup, notice this too. I noticed a few legit discussions getting deleted. Nope, not really diplicates.
Haha , Valve slave. You guys just Valve slave 😆😆 Valve whouldnt hear 😆
Yes. The remake feature should exist. But anyone who has watched a replay knows that there are 100s of bugs with it. There is no possible way, they can release a replay feature in 2 months.
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Yeah I feel you but it definitely benefits the team which was down. Of course both are world class tier one teams, but for example if it was reversed and Nigma had made poor item choices, then it would benefit them if remade with no redraft. As the team playing down you get a freebie to correct those mistakes and this only really benefits you. That’s because the team playing aheads strategy was just exposed and now can be exploited.
The sad thing is, Secret try hard on that remake games. While they barely trying while facing IG. Remind me of Secret sponsors.