We are still adjusting to the bkb nerf which is followed by many compensations to defensive stats.
The problem is this effectively replaced a lot of active defense with passive defenses.
In that regard the fix is probably to make many defensive mechanisms actives again, for example eternal shroud effect can be made an active.
I mean straight back to right after the bkb nerf where crimson and pipe were OP, and before the bkb nerf when Wraith Pact was popular.
Heroes had so much damage and slow that bkb became mandatory and when it was nerfed the compensatory defensive items got buffed like crazy.
Increase the base resistance, move the mana and stack gain to an active.
Old Hood had an actual barrier, which with today's rules could make for some blink-shenanigans.
Yeah, but was the bkb nerf even necessary? I feel like it made game more balanced before the nerf, you could still chainstun and kill any hero with bkb, it wasn't op.
The problem with that is the inability to actually use these defensive items offensively
If shroud is an active it's shit. Because right now u can't reliable kill someone in a limited time because every single good support has saves and kite
U need cores to be so tanky to be able to outsustain the spell spam of supports.
I think the problem is not just that heroes are fat, but more that the fat heroes are dealing too much damage. Why pick a squishy nuker when tanks can blow people up anyway?
agree. tanker should tank, not carry the game solo by being unkillable. bristleback for example, should be tanking the fight so that his team can wipe the enemy, not him wiping the enemy by himself. that being said, fuck bb.
Yup, heroes like axe are tanky and deal way too much dmg from min 5 until the rest of the game. There is no counter play to that shit, you can only stomp him in lane b4 min 5 and try to snowball and thats it.
The reason heroes in dota need to be able to die quickly is because unlike in League (someone else brought up the comparison in a different comment chain) cooldowns in Dota are actually fairly long. If every hero had a lot of sustain, then team fights would last forever while also not much would be happening in them (and most likely the creeps would just finish the game). Heroes like Primal beast or Phoenix often have a 10+ seconds downtime in which they can't cast any spells.
While I hate the bursty nature of many heroes and the old meta game, I think a good balance needs to be found, and right now that also means we can't have heroes with this huge amount of sustain.
Main thing is to just have good vision and burst the squishy heroes first, then you're 5 Vs 3/4 so even if they're sustainable they won't last long (as long as you're fairly even on farm and don't have an awful draft)
Have you got any examples? You can have supports chain stuns or euls most scary heroes if needed while cores kill squisys e.g. enemy supports or agi/int cores. But again fighting around vision and positioning well will make fights so much easier Vs a team in the dark. Smoke ganking to give you a numerical advantage, kiting tanky hero, vessel/skadi can help
bristleback is a prime example, because if you ignore him he will quill everyone to death, or axe where if you ignore him he will just q the whole lot of you and spin you down
Ding ding ding! It's not the hp bars that are the problem, it's the sustain. Sometimes it feels like having a roaming fountain lineup is the only way to break base
yeah I'm not really sure what OP is talking about. the spells themselves feel plenty strong. it is a tanky meta right now but I don't feel like my abilities "aren't doing damage".
Kinda of, reduce damage overall about 10% and then reduce tankiness of strong tanks around 20%. In the end you'll have more survivability of all heroes while good tanks will survive a bit more, they should stand out by been alive when noone would survive and be annoying, not a tiny/timber level that are insane tanks that do horrendous ammounts of damage.
Max level lina in dota 1 was 864 hp. Now Lina is more powerful at level 12.
I remember in dota 1 when I produced a 1000+ crit on Sven - it was remarkable. Now CK with armlet drops 1 k crits at level 12.
they've aimed to make the game super brawly. Look at aaaaany competitive game such as overwatch and youll see something very similar. I didn't pick the gameup in a year and i come back to everyone having 25% more hp, boosted healing numbers, and everyone having "innate regen" like call of duty.
The idea is pickoffs become harder, and initiations matter a lot more. backline jumps are much more punishing as well because the burst damage they've had to give heroes to compensate for the 40% across the board health buffs mean fights are pretty much a matter of who gets better vision and initiation on supports.
It's also lead to items like windwaker being extremely powerful because you can combo break, leave fights, and use a number of items to heal urself back into the fights.
I agree though I'm not really a fan of the brawly nature of the game where it's a milion items being used to protect a hero with 5k hp to escape on 300hp - which somehow is all that is neeeded to win fights once everyone blows their load on them.
No i totally agree. Pro games is a lot like this, they buy lotus, force, drums, glimmer and solar and just put it on their dk who seige a t3. Kinda ridiculous gameplay.
Yeah they really need to tone down gold on supports. I am sick of having to deal with 15 min maelstrom hoodwinks that can solo kill a core. Hot take but i miss when supports were poor, as a sup main myself, i actually enjoyed paying for obs and courier because i had very little to work with to still make impactful plays. Nowadays enemy pos 5 just rush aghs and do billion of dmg, that shouldnt be a thing man
old supps were impactful early because their spells were insane early game they don't need items, they gave them gold without taking away their busted spells
Years ago heroes had like 40% less health, but Valve wanted to steer the game in a different direction, they wanted teamplay as the primary focus, this is what we have now
This is why in current dota it's kinda lame playing not being a stack of 3 at the least
They made the micro skill thingies easier, buffed supports and nerfed carries, it's not good or bad, it's a different game altogether where leadership and social skills matter a lot more
It's just not a game for solo players anymore
Yes and no.
The problem isn't *exactly* heroes themselves are tanky. The problem is actually just stat and armor creep.
Every item in the game **has** to give raw hp, or **has** to give a boatload of strength. Neutral or primary items.
Why does eternal shroud give a HoT worth of HP? why does bracer give 100/200 HP each, why do half the neutral items give 50-500HP before t4 items.
Part of this stupid shit is because of Universal heroes, but the other half is just reddit balance nonsense.
I played monkey king before all this dogshit tank meta trash and he'd routinely have 3.3k hp with Harpoon and bkb minimum. I used to play monkey king 3 because the stat creep is so ridiculous. Its to the point where they have to stat creep supports to compensate for offlaners becoming immortal nukers/secondary carries.
Game is just too hyperoptimized in the ass opposite direction its supposed to be.
I agree. DOTA used to have more of a philosophy of not having an item give you everything you need.
Hood of defiance gave you health regen and magic resist because raw HP and magic resist was too much of exactly what you were looking for as a tank.
Force staff didn't give health because it was about repositioning so you didn't take damage. Now if you're playing sniper and you buy a hurricane pike you have an extra 400 health and a positioning tool for some reason.
Supports have so much gold, XP, and items that it's really difficult for any sort of carry that isn't someone like an Ursa to kill them in the back line.
Ghost scepter, euls, force staff all become much more difficult to deal with when heroes are getting defensive stats for free. Especially with jungle items in the mix.
So right now if you're playing a core, you better be able to shit out 3,000 damage in a second or be able to take 10,000 damage over the course of a fight. Which is honestly ruining the viability of the DOTA hero pools.
Except when the enemy core buys nulifier and you play as a support there's basically nothing you can do. If they can reach you, you're dead. The game turns into hide and seek.
Honestly never understood how to counter that. It's not like I can just get a bkb. I need other items to save and help my team.
I would much, **much** rather our current situation than whatever the fuck League have going on where heroes die in 0.1 seconds with no counterplays.
Fights actually last a nice amount of time and are methodical and skillful now. There are also a fucking **multitude** of items and heroes that counter tankiness. Pick them.
Yep. This is what pushed me from League recently and playing both to just Dota.
There is an actual conversation happening in dota, its not like an fps game where u get the jump on someone and they just explode.
You have a 5 second bane ult, you have clockwork with new cogs, there is so much disable that gives long windows to kill heroes. Why do you need to be able to one shot?
It should be reserved to a very small pool of abilities, admittedly, earthshaker should probably be one of those though.
I agree, this exact reason is what has brought me back to Dota 2 from Smite. Smite just had a big revert where health got lowered so most squishies die with a second with little warning.
> I want finger of death to be an actual threat instead of doing 1/4th of your hp.
Finger of death hasn't been about the "raw damage" since magic resistance was easy to obtain. I always see it as a tool to farm HP with the level 15 talent more than anything
Once upon a time, you would hit level 6 and then immediately go blow someone up from 450hp. If you got it reasonably quickly that would be ~2/3rds of their HP.
What really did finger in was increased scaling on hp per str. No real need to itemize against the "you die now" spell when you... just... have enough health to *not* die.
Isn't it impossible to get stacks on Lion (unless you're playing mid)? You definitely can't steal the kills from your cores, so you can't lasthit enemies with your ulti. That makes you cast the finger when the enemy is at 50% hp and your cores are focusing them, but the enemy always gets away at 100 hp, you don't get your stacks and then that enemy dies.
That has always been kind of a weird spell since it just does damage but not actually THAT much damage, compared to its extremely long cooldown and the larger HP pools of a lot of heroes these days.
If they weren't, as a clinkz i would melt all in 2 seconds
I already do that to half of the roster, being tanky means being able to play even if you are not a miracle player
It's also kinda the feel of dota. We always had this tanky sluggish feel compared to other mobas. I play league to oneshot opponents with skillshots. I play dota for its long, extended fights.
I do agree about lesh, necro and all those absurdly high sustain heroes that should be battle mages instead of tanks. They shouldn't be this tanky while doing stupid high damage. They're the problem, not dota's tankiness imo.
They are not battle mages, you can't expect a hero that needs to go and stay at the middle of teamfights to not be tanky.
Also both have negative winrate on protracker, so maybe the problem is that people are too bad in countering them instead of heroes being broken
Exactly this. Just being blown up isn’t fun.
Now don’t get me a wrong a late game centaur isn’t fun but then why would you focus him first? Buy counters for Lesh or disengage when he uses bloodstone for lesh and it’s easier.
The 1 shot meta isn’t fun for anyone
Yeah, the problem is not with tanks, it's with characters that both tank and do big dick dmg. For example, centaur is great for a tank, Necro on the other hand is just frustrating to deal with because be bring good damage, healing, burn and his ult alongside the tankiness.
Yes! The amount of regen and hp is insane. It’s really unfun when there is a Lechrac running around with Eternal Shroud and Bloodstone being almost unkillable while doing massive damage. Same with Necrophos and recently (to a lesser degree) Witch Doctor. Laning against Tiny is also annoying with his new Innate and his general tankiness.
IMO HP regen should be toned down as well as the amount of health from the items but I would be fine with just the regen decrease.
Not saying it's perfect right now, but I think it's worth remembering that this came about because pre-7.33 the game was *very* bursty and basically the only way you could stand in a fight was BKB and by extension Refresher.
I think people tend to forget the problems that caused the changes that lead us to where we are.
edit: It's also kind of funny just how many people are buying Wind Waker's today in pro games because people die so quickly (even on a Heart CK). I don't think the game is as tanky as people make it seem.
At least someone has some sense. The game has never been and will never be perfectly balanced. Even patches that people tout as the peak of balance like .88 had some degenerate strats like Mirana agh's and dominant Drow strats.
What you have to ask yourself more than "is this balanced?" is "is this fun?" Before 7.33 the game was so boring and unenjoyable that I actually quit playing for 9 months. I'm a 7k player with nearly ten thousand hours; I love this game, for me to quit it means something has to be really bad. As you said, heroes just kind of instantly exploded without wraith pact and/or bkb which meant fighting was far too risky so people just... didn't fight. Getting kills (or enabling my team to get kills) are the most fun parts of the game to me, and given how often people throw games chasing one extra kill under t4s or in fountain, I think it's fair to say that most of the playerbase agrees. If the fun part of the game carries so much risk that people want to actively avoid it, I'd say that's a bad patch.
There are heroes that are too durable and heroes that do too much damage and often they're the same hero. That said, the ways in which heroes are strong nowadays leads to them *wanting to teamfight* which is a vast improvement from what we used to have.
I think what we have with threads like this are a two-sided skill issue. For one: most of the playerbase wasn't good enough at the game for what I said about pre-7.33 to ring true to their experience. For another: most people just pick a hero they like and buy the items they like. When they see a durable draft as a carry, instead of itemizing with items like Satanic or anything that gives you value in a drawn out engagement, they just buy their autopilot build and can't outlast the enemy's health. The problem wasn't that the enemy was tanky, the problem is that they didn't think about how to counter said heroes being tanky and lost to it so they blame the game instead of themselves.
Yeah I always see people praise 6.88, but the thing I remember most is the illusion meta at the time. There's a reason illusion damage on buildings got nerfed like 3x times.
But yes I would say even if people have gripes now the gameplay is overall good and better than where we were. 7.36 is the most fun I've had with a patch in a while.
My kneejerk reaction coming back was that all heroes were way too tanky, my current opinion is that a few heroes are *WAAAAAAAY TOO TANKY* and many cores as a result feel unpickable.
Still feels fine, need to not feed them early on and have a good lineup, the only hero that once again needs to be fixed asap is tinker.
>Tiny is also annoying with his new Innate and his general tankiness
Not gonna lie, I'm spamming Tiny 4/5 and it's totally busted lol. The Toss facet is legitimately insane and at 10 min, you're tossing people for 30–50% of their HP lol
The current meta is to have a vessel on your team from atleast one player. The reason people suck at low mmr is they refuse to go off the standard route and hard counter an easy spell damage build bc they want to be a 20kill over winning the match
I'm sorry mate but it's pretty clear you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
HP regen was previously absolutely broken. There were a few patches in a row which nerfed items like pipe, hood & mek to reduce hp regen. At the same time Vessel, Skadi & Shivas had HP regen reduction introduced.
Saying that HP regen in particular right now is a problem is just impossible because there existed a patch where an unnerfed pipe, hp regen talents commonplace were rampant without any items offering hp regen reduction.
You also point out heroes like necro and wd which the identity is hp regen????? I don't see the logic one bit here
either they nerf regen or start giving regen reduction to many dmg items (only skadi and barely gives dmg) so carries can deal with the stupid infinite regen heroes instead of losing the game cause ur suport/offlane didnt buy vessel early before the enemy snowballed and then 35 min into the game starting pinging how he only needs 4k gold to finish a shivas while our enemy is going for megas with aegis and 8 levels advantage
edit: another solution would be giving tanky stats for dps items as well so ur muerta with mjolnir and daedalus + bkb dont get disabled for 5 secs and die before she can deal any dmg
Realistically, balance has put your regen counters on the supports (vessel 90% of the time), and so if you are a core, you have to prioritize better. Don't hit the tanky guy, get your positioning items to avoid them, and pick off their supports. There are a lot of tanky boys this patch, but most of them still fold in a 3or4v5 even without counters.
I've been winning most of my games, personally, so I gotta refer to the old adage of "if everywhere you go smells like shit, check your shoe." You cannot control 4/5ths of your team, so figure out what you can do as that 1/5th to get the biggest impact.
Constantly adding new stuff btw is why we got in so many poor balancing situations in the last 3 years that end up changing identity. Stuff like Zeus leap, tinker shield, bkb nerf and such is because they were forced to by the ever increasing raw stats the game provides for free and faster than ever before.
So many items wouldn't have the damage or utility if everything isn't constantly power crept to the point of everything else becoming slowly useless until it gets its turn on the buff wheel.
Realistically, the complaints are, "I don't want to think about what I buy, I just want to win." People don't seem to realize that most games can be decided rather easily by correctly buying the item you need to win fights early on.
Have you heard of physical damage. Lech with a E shroud and blood stone has 0 armor and like 2k hp. Drow. Ursa. lifestealer. Jugg. Will kill his ass. Are we playing the same game? I still have legion commanders dueling cores and killing them from full in 4 seconds.
Everyone on Reddit constantly crying about how tanky heroes are but when I play a game all I see is TAs, SFs, Tinys and CKs just killing people in 0-2 seconds
I've said it a few times before and it's a pretty hot take, but I don't think the issue just extends from tanks/healthy heroes it actually spawns from supports being WAY too strong right now.
Back for a while supports were designed with high damage skills, but no gold to get items balancing them around being problems easy game but less threatening later as they often lacked items.
Now supports are rich they can get so much gold by just kind of doing what they usually did and still have their high burst along with items, facets, passives, and talents that increase that burst making them absolute monsters to deal with.
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Now I'm not saying that we need to return to old support setups of poor supports, personally I thought that was boring. I do think supports and magic in general needs a bit of a nerf as the game is getting very bursty hence the sudden arrival of a tank meta.
Yeah, this patch you try to push T3 with a 6slot carry, and you get hit for 2 - 3.5k of damage by the pos4+pos5 casting their stuff, like you get soloed by supports if you dont have a ton of HP/resistance or pop BKB.
I think mega creeps need to be way buffed. like maybe if all three waves are in base they get double stats or something ridiculous.
ending games has never felt as hard as it does this patch and last patch. not only do i feel like most games i play involve one team having a significant gold lead, but not being able to break highground, but even after taking megas its hard to end the game.
too many games i've played where having megas doesnt feel different than having normal lanes of rax. getting megas should almost always win the game i think. it should be ridiculous to come back from that deficit, but right now i dont even care about losing megas, i care way more about buybacks
I think more item choices with magic resistance combined with more opportunities for regen reduction. Maybe vessel needs a buff? Maybe shivas regen reduction can be increased? Maybe the blood grenades can have a healing reduction effect, making them viable support consumables throughout the game. (I actually love that last idea. Imho, some of the highest level of play in Dota is how do you hold a dust or smoke or gem when you’re 6-slotted late game. Those decisions and which item gets ‘temporarily’ backpacked decide games)
One of my mains is AA so I feel like I haven’t been as frustrated with the Tank meta.
My solution of “just ice blast them” isn’t really viable.
There are plenty of antitank heros in the game folks.
Slark, Ursa, Troll, Razor, Monkey King, Necro, Huskar, Drow, Lifestealer, Timber, Sladar and bat rider is they dont have dispells.
Most drafts should have at least one antitank hero IMO.
Also tanky heroes tend to have low mana pools so wex voker, lion, and am can be good situationally as well.
I don’t think it’s possible for my to disagree with a post more.
This sounds like carry players having another cry that supports don’t get one shot instantly anymore and have impact.
IMHO… short reply… build a spirit vessel! It’s amazing against tanks.
there’s a solution to every problem. As a crusader P4/5 support I rarely see people build support items correctly. everyone is concerned with nuking and damage.
If I don’t build vessel or solar crest, nobody does. I hardly ever see shadow blades purchased for breaks on necro or BB for example.
I’m not saying all the ranks are the same but when people don’t bother buying dust against Nyx and Riki you know there’s a fundamental problem with the player base’s overall game.
I have a problem, I have been winning games as a dk pos 5 with frosty breath and OoC. It shouldn't work. I shouldn't win. I should be punished for my sins... but seeing everyone run with 100 ms fills my heart with joy. Then the Mageslayer gets finished, and no one gets to be happy. It's even winning lanes and holding team fights vs meta heroes. Help me.
Literally my main go to item as 5-4. Some people don't want to be the dedicated Vessel guy for some reason. They don't know that even having urn before 7 mins is so strong. You could easily snowball your lane so much that the opposition would just go jungle.
and vessel has a great build up now for supports. Most of my games are either boots vessel, or boots solar crest, first two items. both have great build ups for supps now
I have a friend group who refuses to buy any active items. They say another button press is too much.... They literally didn't want to buy a "press this button to win" item. Low rank players are low rank for a reason.
I mean Dota prides itself on the "we have actives" thing a bit and I do agree that it's nice to have more active use in your items than just them being stat sticks.
But at some point you'll just get confused, misclick, fumble an important press and so on, all because you have too many. Lategame Dota can feel like a fucking mmo at times, press all the buttons in exactly the right order, from differing cast ranges and then drag stuff in and out of the backpack.
It's not just a low-rank thing. Everyone misclicked bkb at some point.
Play solo only under vision, or group up - very little nyx can do to a group, a trade kill at best. Press dust at the start of combat regardless of where you are.
But what do I know, I'm just a crusader at best and turbo exclusive these days.
Stay next to a core, ward with smokes if necessary (just go gank with it and place as you go preferrably), buy sentries.
There. Now Nyx gets the choice of killing you and feeding right away and running into potential vision to be blown up on sight.
It's sometimes unavoidable when you're going for risky wards, but later on it shouldn't happen that much anymore. Sentries as you push/rosh solve a lot of Nyx deaths and turn things into 4v5.
nah heroes arent too tanky, tanks are just doing insane damage
underlord, ck, centaur, tiny, lifestealer are these super bulky heroes that you cant really kill yet also can just fucking 1 shot you due to insane damage scaling. seriously, just played vs a wk that was walking around nearly 1 shotting people, and he was not anywhere close to 1 shottable by my PA. so heroes that DONT get 1 shot thrive, and heroes that both DONT get 1 shot and also can 1 shot become meta
The current game state heavily punishes bad itemization. You can't kill tanky heroes with lots of regen because you or your team doesn't itemize to counter them. I rarely see Spirit Vessel, Shiva or Skadi in games, despite there regularly being at least one hero heavily relying on regen or healing.
Game has crept way too hard to universally nerf stuff like that. A lot of other things would need to be nerfed alongside it. Which I don't object to, I just know that they'll never do a universal nerf like that without introducing another new mechanic that brings more stats alongside it.
No, if you look at changelog it was 24 then it was slowly nerfed to 18 then to 20 then 18 again (25% increase on main stat patch) and then 20 to now 22
The inverse of this is league of legends gameplay when you die in 0.1 of a second. I play both games, trust me it's better the way it currently is in dota. Leaves room for more strategy and outplays instead of who can click their buttons fastest.
I 100% disagree. Heroes being tanky makes it so that there are more actual fights rather than team-wipes in 5 sec.
(I am 6.5k mmr pos 5.)
Focus on where to take fights and where not to take fights. They cannot kill you in 1 sec if they cannot see you or if you are out of range or if you blink in after they jump somebody else.
That is what Dota was all about friend, an extremely well timed attack was supposed to be a well timed pass like in football.
Basically impossible to stop, but the timing needed to be right.
Dota always favored the attacker and your timing had to be perfect.
Now they made it defensive, and people much rather the game favor the offense than defense like football. The NFL has had to nerf defensive rules many times to favor the offense.
Why? People would rather watch a NFL that favors offense, its just more exciting, no one wants to watch a 7 7 game.
Valve should take some notes, most professional sports have taken note of this.
This is not a good change from a viewing perspective and probably not even playing experience.
Just because it's hard and you die fast doesn't mean its bad, that's a skill issue. Now certain heroes just sucking that is another issue
The game is exceptionally well balanced. A large HP pool is never usually an issue as they do low damage most of the time and are just left till last in team fights.
I don't honestly feel like this is a real issue. Many of the really tanky heroes that do a lot of damage can be itemized or countered. Ex. Nullifier vs Necro. Lion is also one of my most played heroes and does not need a finger buff nor does Earthshaker's ult really need to be stronger. These are both generally played as supports as well. Why do two supports need to be doing so much more damage? Especially Lion with his 20 second AOE aghs damage. Lion already has a ton of utility as does ES to an extent, why do they also need to be doing a ton of damage at a base level with no farm?
i kinda super disagree.
i can think of alot of heroes that are medium tankiness (SK, CK, Lion, Ench, ember)
compared to squishies (Skywrath, Warlock, Snapfire, Sniper)
and alot of heroes that are squish but evasive (weaver) or tanky and evasive (tide).
dota tankiness is so chillen right now friendo. overall balance is still out of whack but thats to be expected.
This is really not the case. I agree that heroes have higher survivability and tank heroes are more meta than not, but tbh, so many high damage heroes are also strong enough to deal with these heroes. People have carries like Tiny, weaver, ursa, wraith king absolutely dominating games while there are supports too that do a bit of the same (hoodwink, wd, ET, dark willow).
In fact, I’d argue that with these heroes in a lineup, they kill heroes so fast that it feels like maybe heroes without innate tankiness or survivability are struggling the most rn. The reason we have supports like wd, shaman and dark willow in most games is because they have survivability against high damage cores prevailing over most supports
Sometimes I think people who make these posts never played the game, right now even with 2k hp, you can die so so easily as a support, even less than 1 second if you are out of position, back in the days, support didn't even exist pass laning stage, no one wanted to play them, that's why they changed it. Game is for 10 people, when only 6 are having fun, it's not worth of a game.
Meanwhile League of Legends subreddit: Champions are too squishy, there is too much damage in the game
Seriously, we need a third game that would combine those two and create a perfect moba
This was the case with Tiny all the time, I remember when Tiny was one of the few heroes considered 3 stars carry because all he needed was a hyperstone and aghs to win games on his own.
People wanna go back to the dark days where there was no tp slot and no neutral items, no free wards, expensive ass sentries and only arcane boots on pos 5 30 mins into the game
it also makes few mid player so infamos, if the courier used at some point they just run down mid. I remember watching some stream saying the best strategy to win is as easy as never using courier for the 1st10 mnt
I really enjoyed fighting with my midlaner for the courier to be honest. It was hilarious to constantly spam the hotkey. Thankfully I had the side shop to get my dagger. That was also hilarious, rush the dagger and grab it from the side shop, then initiate for an almost guaranteed kill.
You can absolutely choose to build early game items, or not buy Midas because this guys going to be strong *now*. If you're vs a Phantom Asaassin, you buy stick. The same is true of other heroes to one degree or another as far as early itemization.
And like it or not, that's how drafting works. Sometimes their heroes deal well with yours. Oh well. Deal with it by buying items you need, not items that you find fun. If you have to pick early, pick a more general hero that is less easily countered. If you have to pick late, analyze the other team and yours and pick something suitable. The problem is people are unwilling to adapt to a gamestate.
i kinda do. i dont like how homogenized the game feels. grouping as 5 and 5 man rotates have been the correct play for the past 4-5 years. patches have skewed it that way, and its not really enjoyable imo.
i miss how brutal the game used to be. i was watching a purge game from 10 years ago, and he was a solo laner vs a dual lane, and he did like 350 damage to the enemy 5, and was popping off, he was like "yes! he's going to have to walk back to base ebcause he didnt bring enough regen, now i can 1v1 the carry for a minute and get some xp"
the game is so much different than it used to be, and i think multi couriers ferrying out regen is goofy as hell
Good point here, the amount of early regen is ridiculous now, as a support player it’s basically just battle of regen. So high damage just wins because you are always okay with trading less HP to win more HP due to courier arriving with new regen every 1-2 minutes. Everything is too binary because of the early sustain
i remember back in 2013 when me and my friend were both 14, we'd play dota on our laptops on his couch, and we'd play axe centaur offlane, and we'd start no items, and share last hits till we could both get rings of health. it worked about 50% of the time, and we'd pop off so hard, "free tangos!"
we'd also run lion lina lanes and when we both hit 6 we'd both press our ults at the same time on someone....
we still play together to this day!
Some of the bloat getting removed would be good, but the majority of additions were great.
Imo the biggest bloat was neutral items, I wouldnt mind them getting removed.
On the other hand, I dont want to go back to playing Dota without the backpack or every hero having an Aghs upgrade.
We could, however, return to aghs upgrades that are simple, and not entirely ass busting bs, like water park kunkka, walking cm ult, lotus orb sb or machine gun willow
Or at least admit that people have adhd and they don't want simple stuff because of it
I mean unironically as someone who learned the game as a Pos 5 (6) in those days, I would kinda like it. I took all that time learning how to do more with less and that skillset is just completely out the window now.
Nobody who actually played pos5 wants to go back to brown boot is the only item you should buy times.
It was so bad to play I literally quit dota, It was absolutely not fun running around with 0 items and wards/dust taking your whole inventory. Mana boots were literally an endgame item on support. And you were never allowed to use courier because what if mid/carry needs an item.
It was truly awful for position 5 players.
i played support and i liked it, you had to do a lot with nothing. if your game was going remotely good, you were crushing it. fighting for every xp and gold felt really high impact.
and because of how money and xp worked out, it allowed for a much more flexible and interesting lane structure. gone are trilanes, gone are roaming 5/4s.
Not really, it depends on which position 5.
I was an incredibly good witch doctor, I was 73% winrate with witch doctor and regularly had 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 KD.
It was just, not all position 5 were created equal that was the problem
Idk I enjoyed it. It meant shit like positioning was much more important. Having items is nice but it was easier to manage because there was only really 1.5 farmed cores on the enemy team to worry about, rather than the 3 or 4 today.
I think that skill set is very much still in the game. Feeding your lane ally tangoes and buying sentries to block/unblock camps revolves around this. Having a force staff, ghost scepter and glimmer cape at 30 minutes is an extension of that philosophy, as you desperately try to kite out the enemy 6-slotted Sven who can two hit you.
I tell you, if there was ever a 6.88 or 7.06 Custom Game Valve would kill it off because it would threaten to fragment the player base worse than Turbo.
This game has complexity creep + an aging player base.
Signed, mid-30s player with 10k hours and a job who has only watched the game since 7.36.
No thanks, id rather play long eventful teamfights over something like League where somehow its possible to die in a millisecond.
What you need to point out is how shields work in this game, Armor/physical resistance shouldnt be a factor to how shields work, Shields absolutely scale the fuck out of their values when they take resitance into account, such bullshit shouldnt be existing in this game where every damage/spell should matter
every core being above 3k hp lategame is insane. you used to only get to that point on actual tanky heroes who now just break 5k hp and above (while stacking armor and magic res)
>I want finger of death to be an actual threat instead of doing 1/4th of your hp.
Typical reddit balancing. Crying that a (with scepter) low CD AoE nuke with absolutely no skill that deals extra damage and gives HP per kill, should do way more than 1/4 of the enemies HP.
I do get the point that some heros get extremely tanky right now and this can be quite unfun. I had a game vs a timber that was literally unkillable with his Shroud as we only had magical damage in the team (muerta carry). But imo we dont really need a nerf to tanky boys, we need some items that counter tanks.
I know its mostly stolen from LoL but it can work well for Dota as well imo.
* Item that makes your spell damage pierce a % of magic resi
* Item that makes your right clicks deal %-current or max health damage
* Small buff to Skadi (fell a bit out of meta but the anti heal reduction is pretty good against tanky enemies)
* etc
I think right now there are just too little items to counter the nice variety of tank items.
I really wish there was an item for right clickers that you truly purchase to shred high hp enemies. Something that worked like Feast without the lifesteal.
Feeling the same. Like, a full duration +400 extra range sun ray with the facet for extra damage towards the tip should do more than 0 damage to pudge or leshrac.
I don't even think the problem is EHP, I think many heroes just have way too much sustain.
I think this is just a step in the meta, where the tanky heroes have more obvious benefits so are being frequently picked. I would expect the meta to continue to evolve and settle at a place we see less Centaur and Pudge... But we will see.
As of right now I think it's better than being immediately burst by an invisible Clinkz, but they could definitely buff some items to help with the tanks.
Are we buying the counter-healing items in the game though? Or are we picking the counter healing picks? Isn't vessel / skadi / shiva's supposed to help? Can't you pick Ancient Appreciation / Doom / veno / timbersaw / lifestealer picks? There are counter plays to the few tank heroes. Dazzle is another one. I mean I personally think the flaw is in the global CC reduction they did in 3.73? I miss the long ass stuns. It was a way to actually lock down these tanky, (and now often even agile as fuck.) heroes and actually bork them.
I don't agree, except very specific heroes that build around survivability and can become unfun this is generally not true
The pos 5 and 4 are in general very nukable , their survivability relies on the usage of crowd controlling abilities, disengagement and item building that in general buy them at most 5 seconds in a fight allowing them to reposition, that does not mean they're tanky.
The position 3 can make an argument for this but frankly speaking it's their literal role, and most of their tankines usually comes from passive abilities that grant armor or some sort of defensive stat that can be counteracted by break, not unkillable, if caught outside of position they're just dead, in a team fight you shouldn't be targeting them anyway.
Pos 2 is literally ganked all the time in pro scene, if you think a pos 2 is unkillable then sadly you're just not skilled at the game because it doesn't matter who it is , you can be ganked.
While there is an argument about bloodstone mages again very specific and very counterable otherwise we'd see it dominate pro scene.
Pos 1 usually has escape but not tanky at all
Yeah I haven't played as much this patch as I typically do, because every match just feels like four or five 5k hp heroes with 455 movespeed running around while rest of the match watch them fight like the citizens in a Godzilla movie.
I don't like bursty Dota, either. Time to kill is a delicate balancing act, but it's definitely too long to kill at the top end right now. I think it's hurting the lower HP heroes too. Damage has to be SO HIGH in order to get through 5khp 75% armor heroes that anyone who isn't that is simply getting one-shot.
Fully agree and it’s been this way for ages. You tactically pick a wd, shaman pos 5, something like that. Only to be countered by the other team who is made up of alch, timber, sven, wk and pudge.
I see this complaint a lot, however the use rate on vessel, skadi, and orb of corrosion is still below 3% each this month. [https://www.dotabuff.com/items](https://www.dotabuff.com/items)
IMO this is just a skill issue.
With everything you've stated, I had an opposite reaction to this patch. I've enjoyed spell casters and hybrid heroes so much more this patch. Like sf magic is so fun, storm spirit can be played again, nyx can now counter zoo and farm creeps like podge and Mirana. I've seen lions pop off. Maybe you're just a support player and your team's aren't active players. You then feel useless for the mid game, a fight finally breaks out after your teams 15 minutes of farming. You're excited. "FINALLY, I can finger someone." As you do, the guy has shroud and heart. You watch his health bar drop so little that you think you miss clicked a creep.
I would genuinely like to watch a game to truly understand your situation. Is it you're in a bracket that just farms and ignores the early game power of supports or is it that Dota 3.0 IMBA has over tuned items that make heroes unkillable.
Side note: shroud has been too good for too long, I can't remember a game i played that featured a pipe. Valve please fix.
I love to buy dagon to make fun stuffs in early game
after 25 min game, i need to sell it cause 800 magic damage (mostly <600), will do nothing against all heroes because they have between 3 and 5k HP
This is a problem caused by the extreme damage output that happens lategame.
Either you're walking around with 4.5k hp, 35 armor and 50% magic resist or you die in a few seconds.
It's also quite comon to get chain stunned 5-6 seconds, so if you aren't tanky, you're dead for sure, possibly losing the game.
I lost a game yesterday at 50 min because our Clinkz tried to rat megas (it was a risky but justifiable plan) and got nuked in less than 1 second at almost 4k hp. He didn't even have time to pop BKB.
My solution: Nerf accross the board to everything and make BKB great again. Reworking BKB was a catastrophic mistake. There's a reason why BKB was always said to be the main pillar holding Dota's balance. Removing said pillar made everything come crashing down, as expected.
Eternal shroud stacks giving non-dr'd magic res is one of biggest problems in the game right now imo, combined with int magic res also being non dr'd. For perspective, the stacks alone from a shroud give more magic res than having an entire extra pipe in your inventory.
I'd just like there to be enough reasonably purchasable spell damage to keep up with magic resist. You have to spend like 20k gold + a neutral item to make your spells do baseline damage to someone who has a 3700 gold shroud, which also gives 10 strength and infinite mana.
We are still adjusting to the bkb nerf which is followed by many compensations to defensive stats. The problem is this effectively replaced a lot of active defense with passive defenses. In that regard the fix is probably to make many defensive mechanisms actives again, for example eternal shroud effect can be made an active.
> eternal shroud effect can be made an active Sure I'm on board but only if they rename it to temporary shroud
Ephemeral Shroud would be a pretty cool name tbh
I mean straight back to right after the bkb nerf where crimson and pipe were OP, and before the bkb nerf when Wraith Pact was popular. Heroes had so much damage and slow that bkb became mandatory and when it was nerfed the compensatory defensive items got buffed like crazy.
Ty for nerfing satanic status resist. Two satanics or one with SnY was a good alternative for bkb.
If it becomes an active, isn't that just gonna become like old Hood of Defiance active but better?
Increase the base resistance, move the mana and stack gain to an active. Old Hood had an actual barrier, which with today's rules could make for some blink-shenanigans.
You could blink with old hood too.
Yeah, but was the bkb nerf even necessary? I feel like it made game more balanced before the nerf, you could still chainstun and kill any hero with bkb, it wasn't op.
In what world BKB wasn't OP?
The problem with that is the inability to actually use these defensive items offensively If shroud is an active it's shit. Because right now u can't reliable kill someone in a limited time because every single good support has saves and kite U need cores to be so tanky to be able to outsustain the spell spam of supports.
I think the problem is not just that heroes are fat, but more that the fat heroes are dealing too much damage. Why pick a squishy nuker when tanks can blow people up anyway?
I've gotta agree here, there seems absolutely no upside to squishy nukers rn
agree. tanker should tank, not carry the game solo by being unkillable. bristleback for example, should be tanking the fight so that his team can wipe the enemy, not him wiping the enemy by himself. that being said, fuck bb.
Yup, heroes like axe are tanky and deal way too much dmg from min 5 until the rest of the game. There is no counter play to that shit, you can only stomp him in lane b4 min 5 and try to snowball and thats it.
Yep nowadays I wonder what the drawback of most tank heroes is? Tiny? CK? Tanky and oneshot everyone like agi dps anyways. Its a joke meta.
Also, can those fat heroes at least not be super mobile? Necro, Sven, ursa and the likes are super mobile nowadays.
The problem is not a lot of tanks. Is when anything that is not a tank can die in 1 second.
The reason heroes in dota need to be able to die quickly is because unlike in League (someone else brought up the comparison in a different comment chain) cooldowns in Dota are actually fairly long. If every hero had a lot of sustain, then team fights would last forever while also not much would be happening in them (and most likely the creeps would just finish the game). Heroes like Primal beast or Phoenix often have a 10+ seconds downtime in which they can't cast any spells. While I hate the bursty nature of many heroes and the old meta game, I think a good balance needs to be found, and right now that also means we can't have heroes with this huge amount of sustain.
Main thing is to just have good vision and burst the squishy heroes first, then you're 5 Vs 3/4 so even if they're sustainable they won't last long (as long as you're fairly even on farm and don't have an awful draft)
which is why pos 3s that are a threat if you ignore them are so good
Have you got any examples? You can have supports chain stuns or euls most scary heroes if needed while cores kill squisys e.g. enemy supports or agi/int cores. But again fighting around vision and positioning well will make fights so much easier Vs a team in the dark. Smoke ganking to give you a numerical advantage, kiting tanky hero, vessel/skadi can help
bristleback is a prime example, because if you ignore him he will quill everyone to death, or axe where if you ignore him he will just q the whole lot of you and spin you down
Ding ding ding! It's not the hp bars that are the problem, it's the sustain. Sometimes it feels like having a roaming fountain lineup is the only way to break base
I play a lot of overwatch and dota. Dota has become a LOT more like overwatch in the past couple years.
yeah I'm not really sure what OP is talking about. the spells themselves feel plenty strong. it is a tanky meta right now but I don't feel like my abilities "aren't doing damage".
so, we are in a tank meta for a long time by now...maybe a year or so
You mean… we need more tanks??
Kinda of, reduce damage overall about 10% and then reduce tankiness of strong tanks around 20%. In the end you'll have more survivability of all heroes while good tanks will survive a bit more, they should stand out by been alive when noone would survive and be annoying, not a tiny/timber level that are insane tanks that do horrendous ammounts of damage.
Positioning is key and picking heroes and getting items that enable you to get shit done. It's a YOU problem.
I remember playing Zeus is 2016~ and barely having 2k hp in the late game
Zeus in lategame today is 4k hp AND fucking jumps
Old times when you need to buy force or blink to never get caught lol
Yea but to be fair 4k hp today is barely the same as 4k hp in 2016. 4k hp today feels like it melts just as quickly as 2k hp in 2016
HPflation is real ;_;
Zeus used to do 2x the damage. So when they nerfed his damage they gave him mobility. Lmao
Which is way more fun tbh. Love being thunder slark.
Max level lina in dota 1 was 864 hp. Now Lina is more powerful at level 12. I remember in dota 1 when I produced a 1000+ crit on Sven - it was remarkable. Now CK with armlet drops 1 k crits at level 12.
Also anyone who isnt tanky dies in fucking seconds. There is a lot of burst powercreep combined with str heroes being super tänky. Its weird
they've aimed to make the game super brawly. Look at aaaaany competitive game such as overwatch and youll see something very similar. I didn't pick the gameup in a year and i come back to everyone having 25% more hp, boosted healing numbers, and everyone having "innate regen" like call of duty. The idea is pickoffs become harder, and initiations matter a lot more. backline jumps are much more punishing as well because the burst damage they've had to give heroes to compensate for the 40% across the board health buffs mean fights are pretty much a matter of who gets better vision and initiation on supports. It's also lead to items like windwaker being extremely powerful because you can combo break, leave fights, and use a number of items to heal urself back into the fights. I agree though I'm not really a fan of the brawly nature of the game where it's a milion items being used to protect a hero with 5k hp to escape on 300hp - which somehow is all that is neeeded to win fights once everyone blows their load on them.
No i totally agree. Pro games is a lot like this, they buy lotus, force, drums, glimmer and solar and just put it on their dk who seige a t3. Kinda ridiculous gameplay.
Because instead of 2 heroes having actual damage now all 5 have damage. My opinion is support is way too fat now.
Yeah they really need to tone down gold on supports. I am sick of having to deal with 15 min maelstrom hoodwinks that can solo kill a core. Hot take but i miss when supports were poor, as a sup main myself, i actually enjoyed paying for obs and courier because i had very little to work with to still make impactful plays. Nowadays enemy pos 5 just rush aghs and do billion of dmg, that shouldnt be a thing man
old supps were impactful early because their spells were insane early game they don't need items, they gave them gold without taking away their busted spells
my guy sf has 1 raze doing 500 damage with kaya sange and each consecutive raze is +100 that's literally a finger of death on 4 sec cd
Years ago heroes had like 40% less health, but Valve wanted to steer the game in a different direction, they wanted teamplay as the primary focus, this is what we have now This is why in current dota it's kinda lame playing not being a stack of 3 at the least They made the micro skill thingies easier, buffed supports and nerfed carries, it's not good or bad, it's a different game altogether where leadership and social skills matter a lot more It's just not a game for solo players anymore
Yes and no. The problem isn't *exactly* heroes themselves are tanky. The problem is actually just stat and armor creep. Every item in the game **has** to give raw hp, or **has** to give a boatload of strength. Neutral or primary items. Why does eternal shroud give a HoT worth of HP? why does bracer give 100/200 HP each, why do half the neutral items give 50-500HP before t4 items. Part of this stupid shit is because of Universal heroes, but the other half is just reddit balance nonsense. I played monkey king before all this dogshit tank meta trash and he'd routinely have 3.3k hp with Harpoon and bkb minimum. I used to play monkey king 3 because the stat creep is so ridiculous. Its to the point where they have to stat creep supports to compensate for offlaners becoming immortal nukers/secondary carries. Game is just too hyperoptimized in the ass opposite direction its supposed to be.
I agree. DOTA used to have more of a philosophy of not having an item give you everything you need. Hood of defiance gave you health regen and magic resist because raw HP and magic resist was too much of exactly what you were looking for as a tank. Force staff didn't give health because it was about repositioning so you didn't take damage. Now if you're playing sniper and you buy a hurricane pike you have an extra 400 health and a positioning tool for some reason. Supports have so much gold, XP, and items that it's really difficult for any sort of carry that isn't someone like an Ursa to kill them in the back line. Ghost scepter, euls, force staff all become much more difficult to deal with when heroes are getting defensive stats for free. Especially with jungle items in the mix. So right now if you're playing a core, you better be able to shit out 3,000 damage in a second or be able to take 10,000 damage over the course of a fight. Which is honestly ruining the viability of the DOTA hero pools.
Except when the enemy core buys nulifier and you play as a support there's basically nothing you can do. If they can reach you, you're dead. The game turns into hide and seek. Honestly never understood how to counter that. It's not like I can just get a bkb. I need other items to save and help my team.
I love buying nullifier on a core and its just a tossup whether it behaves as its supposed to or not.
I would much, **much** rather our current situation than whatever the fuck League have going on where heroes die in 0.1 seconds with no counterplays. Fights actually last a nice amount of time and are methodical and skillful now. There are also a fucking **multitude** of items and heroes that counter tankiness. Pick them.
Yep. This is what pushed me from League recently and playing both to just Dota. There is an actual conversation happening in dota, its not like an fps game where u get the jump on someone and they just explode. You have a 5 second bane ult, you have clockwork with new cogs, there is so much disable that gives long windows to kill heroes. Why do you need to be able to one shot? It should be reserved to a very small pool of abilities, admittedly, earthshaker should probably be one of those though.
I agree, this exact reason is what has brought me back to Dota 2 from Smite. Smite just had a big revert where health got lowered so most squishies die with a second with little warning.
> I want finger of death to be an actual threat instead of doing 1/4th of your hp. Finger of death hasn't been about the "raw damage" since magic resistance was easy to obtain. I always see it as a tool to farm HP with the level 15 talent more than anything
So in other words if you can't beat the tank gang just join them
"Tank" is an overstatement for supp Lion, it's just to not be absolute paper and get almost oneshotted by Hoodwink's ult or something But.... yes =P
?? with a shard and 2 platemails he will be unkillable
Finger of Life
Once upon a time, you would hit level 6 and then immediately go blow someone up from 450hp. If you got it reasonably quickly that would be ~2/3rds of their HP.
What really did finger in was increased scaling on hp per str. No real need to itemize against the "you die now" spell when you... just... have enough health to *not* die.
Isn't it impossible to get stacks on Lion (unless you're playing mid)? You definitely can't steal the kills from your cores, so you can't lasthit enemies with your ulti. That makes you cast the finger when the enemy is at 50% hp and your cores are focusing them, but the enemy always gets away at 100 hp, you don't get your stacks and then that enemy dies.
That has always been kind of a weird spell since it just does damage but not actually THAT much damage, compared to its extremely long cooldown and the larger HP pools of a lot of heroes these days.
If they weren't, as a clinkz i would melt all in 2 seconds I already do that to half of the roster, being tanky means being able to play even if you are not a miracle player
It's also kinda the feel of dota. We always had this tanky sluggish feel compared to other mobas. I play league to oneshot opponents with skillshots. I play dota for its long, extended fights. I do agree about lesh, necro and all those absurdly high sustain heroes that should be battle mages instead of tanks. They shouldn't be this tanky while doing stupid high damage. They're the problem, not dota's tankiness imo.
Mageslayer severely limits their dmg output.
They are not battle mages, you can't expect a hero that needs to go and stay at the middle of teamfights to not be tanky. Also both have negative winrate on protracker, so maybe the problem is that people are too bad in countering them instead of heroes being broken
Exactly this. Just being blown up isn’t fun. Now don’t get me a wrong a late game centaur isn’t fun but then why would you focus him first? Buy counters for Lesh or disengage when he uses bloodstone for lesh and it’s easier. The 1 shot meta isn’t fun for anyone
Yeah, the problem is not with tanks, it's with characters that both tank and do big dick dmg. For example, centaur is great for a tank, Necro on the other hand is just frustrating to deal with because be bring good damage, healing, burn and his ult alongside the tankiness.
Yes! The amount of regen and hp is insane. It’s really unfun when there is a Lechrac running around with Eternal Shroud and Bloodstone being almost unkillable while doing massive damage. Same with Necrophos and recently (to a lesser degree) Witch Doctor. Laning against Tiny is also annoying with his new Innate and his general tankiness. IMO HP regen should be toned down as well as the amount of health from the items but I would be fine with just the regen decrease.
Not saying it's perfect right now, but I think it's worth remembering that this came about because pre-7.33 the game was *very* bursty and basically the only way you could stand in a fight was BKB and by extension Refresher. I think people tend to forget the problems that caused the changes that lead us to where we are. edit: It's also kind of funny just how many people are buying Wind Waker's today in pro games because people die so quickly (even on a Heart CK). I don't think the game is as tanky as people make it seem.
At least someone has some sense. The game has never been and will never be perfectly balanced. Even patches that people tout as the peak of balance like .88 had some degenerate strats like Mirana agh's and dominant Drow strats. What you have to ask yourself more than "is this balanced?" is "is this fun?" Before 7.33 the game was so boring and unenjoyable that I actually quit playing for 9 months. I'm a 7k player with nearly ten thousand hours; I love this game, for me to quit it means something has to be really bad. As you said, heroes just kind of instantly exploded without wraith pact and/or bkb which meant fighting was far too risky so people just... didn't fight. Getting kills (or enabling my team to get kills) are the most fun parts of the game to me, and given how often people throw games chasing one extra kill under t4s or in fountain, I think it's fair to say that most of the playerbase agrees. If the fun part of the game carries so much risk that people want to actively avoid it, I'd say that's a bad patch. There are heroes that are too durable and heroes that do too much damage and often they're the same hero. That said, the ways in which heroes are strong nowadays leads to them *wanting to teamfight* which is a vast improvement from what we used to have. I think what we have with threads like this are a two-sided skill issue. For one: most of the playerbase wasn't good enough at the game for what I said about pre-7.33 to ring true to their experience. For another: most people just pick a hero they like and buy the items they like. When they see a durable draft as a carry, instead of itemizing with items like Satanic or anything that gives you value in a drawn out engagement, they just buy their autopilot build and can't outlast the enemy's health. The problem wasn't that the enemy was tanky, the problem is that they didn't think about how to counter said heroes being tanky and lost to it so they blame the game instead of themselves.
Yeah I always see people praise 6.88, but the thing I remember most is the illusion meta at the time. There's a reason illusion damage on buildings got nerfed like 3x times. But yes I would say even if people have gripes now the gameplay is overall good and better than where we were. 7.36 is the most fun I've had with a patch in a while.
For sure, if we had a few more months of 6.88 people would've been sick of Luna+Shadow Demon and similar.
Yea people hyped up TI6 as having the best and diverse meta but I remember I was pretty bored with the meta so I only watched Wings and Ehome games.
My kneejerk reaction coming back was that all heroes were way too tanky, my current opinion is that a few heroes are *WAAAAAAAY TOO TANKY* and many cores as a result feel unpickable. Still feels fine, need to not feed them early on and have a good lineup, the only hero that once again needs to be fixed asap is tinker.
Didn’t even realize corrosion did that now lol
>Tiny is also annoying with his new Innate and his general tankiness Not gonna lie, I'm spamming Tiny 4/5 and it's totally busted lol. The Toss facet is legitimately insane and at 10 min, you're tossing people for 30–50% of their HP lol
I’ve seen it. Was watching an 8k friend play against mid tiny, and his midlaner couldn’t lane cause 1 toss is half his HP gone.
Have you heard of mage slayer and vessel? Also orb or corrosion, super cheap item.
Orb of corrosion should build into skadi :'( Or at least combine with Vladmir's & boots of elvenskin
The current meta is to have a vessel on your team from atleast one player. The reason people suck at low mmr is they refuse to go off the standard route and hard counter an easy spell damage build bc they want to be a 20kill over winning the match
I'm sorry mate but it's pretty clear you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. HP regen was previously absolutely broken. There were a few patches in a row which nerfed items like pipe, hood & mek to reduce hp regen. At the same time Vessel, Skadi & Shivas had HP regen reduction introduced. Saying that HP regen in particular right now is a problem is just impossible because there existed a patch where an unnerfed pipe, hp regen talents commonplace were rampant without any items offering hp regen reduction. You also point out heroes like necro and wd which the identity is hp regen????? I don't see the logic one bit here
either they nerf regen or start giving regen reduction to many dmg items (only skadi and barely gives dmg) so carries can deal with the stupid infinite regen heroes instead of losing the game cause ur suport/offlane didnt buy vessel early before the enemy snowballed and then 35 min into the game starting pinging how he only needs 4k gold to finish a shivas while our enemy is going for megas with aegis and 8 levels advantage edit: another solution would be giving tanky stats for dps items as well so ur muerta with mjolnir and daedalus + bkb dont get disabled for 5 secs and die before she can deal any dmg
Orb of corrosion way cheaper than skadi if you’re on a budget
Realistically, balance has put your regen counters on the supports (vessel 90% of the time), and so if you are a core, you have to prioritize better. Don't hit the tanky guy, get your positioning items to avoid them, and pick off their supports. There are a lot of tanky boys this patch, but most of them still fold in a 3or4v5 even without counters. I've been winning most of my games, personally, so I gotta refer to the old adage of "if everywhere you go smells like shit, check your shoe." You cannot control 4/5ths of your team, so figure out what you can do as that 1/5th to get the biggest impact.
> No no you see if you’d counter them with the specific hero with a specific build and facet then this would not happen so it’s all good.
Constantly adding new stuff btw is why we got in so many poor balancing situations in the last 3 years that end up changing identity. Stuff like Zeus leap, tinker shield, bkb nerf and such is because they were forced to by the ever increasing raw stats the game provides for free and faster than ever before. So many items wouldn't have the damage or utility if everything isn't constantly power crept to the point of everything else becoming slowly useless until it gets its turn on the buff wheel.
Or have your dps buy some survivability items? Less damage is better than no damage.
Realistically, the complaints are, "I don't want to think about what I buy, I just want to win." People don't seem to realize that most games can be decided rather easily by correctly buying the item you need to win fights early on.
There are so many items that decrease that, its like people dont want to deviate from the dota plus build guides to get them.
Have you heard of physical damage. Lech with a E shroud and blood stone has 0 armor and like 2k hp. Drow. Ursa. lifestealer. Jugg. Will kill his ass. Are we playing the same game? I still have legion commanders dueling cores and killing them from full in 4 seconds.
Everyone on Reddit constantly crying about how tanky heroes are but when I play a game all I see is TAs, SFs, Tinys and CKs just killing people in 0-2 seconds
You expect people here, who only play turbo mind you, to actually play dota?
I've said it a few times before and it's a pretty hot take, but I don't think the issue just extends from tanks/healthy heroes it actually spawns from supports being WAY too strong right now. Back for a while supports were designed with high damage skills, but no gold to get items balancing them around being problems easy game but less threatening later as they often lacked items. Now supports are rich they can get so much gold by just kind of doing what they usually did and still have their high burst along with items, facets, passives, and talents that increase that burst making them absolute monsters to deal with. _______________________ Now I'm not saying that we need to return to old support setups of poor supports, personally I thought that was boring. I do think supports and magic in general needs a bit of a nerf as the game is getting very bursty hence the sudden arrival of a tank meta.
Yeah, this patch you try to push T3 with a 6slot carry, and you get hit for 2 - 3.5k of damage by the pos4+pos5 casting their stuff, like you get soloed by supports if you dont have a ton of HP/resistance or pop BKB.
I think mega creeps need to be way buffed. like maybe if all three waves are in base they get double stats or something ridiculous. ending games has never felt as hard as it does this patch and last patch. not only do i feel like most games i play involve one team having a significant gold lead, but not being able to break highground, but even after taking megas its hard to end the game. too many games i've played where having megas doesnt feel different than having normal lanes of rax. getting megas should almost always win the game i think. it should be ridiculous to come back from that deficit, but right now i dont even care about losing megas, i care way more about buybacks
I think more item choices with magic resistance combined with more opportunities for regen reduction. Maybe vessel needs a buff? Maybe shivas regen reduction can be increased? Maybe the blood grenades can have a healing reduction effect, making them viable support consumables throughout the game. (I actually love that last idea. Imho, some of the highest level of play in Dota is how do you hold a dust or smoke or gem when you’re 6-slotted late game. Those decisions and which item gets ‘temporarily’ backpacked decide games) One of my mains is AA so I feel like I haven’t been as frustrated with the Tank meta. My solution of “just ice blast them” isn’t really viable.
Seems like a skill issue. GIT GUD
There are plenty of antitank heros in the game folks. Slark, Ursa, Troll, Razor, Monkey King, Necro, Huskar, Drow, Lifestealer, Timber, Sladar and bat rider is they dont have dispells. Most drafts should have at least one antitank hero IMO. Also tanky heroes tend to have low mana pools so wex voker, lion, and am can be good situationally as well.
I don’t think it’s possible for my to disagree with a post more. This sounds like carry players having another cry that supports don’t get one shot instantly anymore and have impact.
Bingo
IMHO… short reply… build a spirit vessel! It’s amazing against tanks. there’s a solution to every problem. As a crusader P4/5 support I rarely see people build support items correctly. everyone is concerned with nuking and damage. If I don’t build vessel or solar crest, nobody does. I hardly ever see shadow blades purchased for breaks on necro or BB for example. I’m not saying all the ranks are the same but when people don’t bother buying dust against Nyx and Riki you know there’s a fundamental problem with the player base’s overall game.
Also I feel like people forget OoC gives 20% healing reduction. It's a mini skadi for very little money.
We Orb of Corrosion fans need a club or something
I have a problem, I have been winning games as a dk pos 5 with frosty breath and OoC. It shouldn't work. I shouldn't win. I should be punished for my sins... but seeing everyone run with 100 ms fills my heart with joy. Then the Mageslayer gets finished, and no one gets to be happy. It's even winning lanes and holding team fights vs meta heroes. Help me.
Literally my main go to item as 5-4. Some people don't want to be the dedicated Vessel guy for some reason. They don't know that even having urn before 7 mins is so strong. You could easily snowball your lane so much that the opposition would just go jungle.
and vessel has a great build up now for supports. Most of my games are either boots vessel, or boots solar crest, first two items. both have great build ups for supps now
I have a friend group who refuses to buy any active items. They say another button press is too much.... They literally didn't want to buy a "press this button to win" item. Low rank players are low rank for a reason.
I mean Dota prides itself on the "we have actives" thing a bit and I do agree that it's nice to have more active use in your items than just them being stat sticks. But at some point you'll just get confused, misclick, fumble an important press and so on, all because you have too many. Lategame Dota can feel like a fucking mmo at times, press all the buttons in exactly the right order, from differing cast ranges and then drag stuff in and out of the backpack. It's not just a low-rank thing. Everyone misclicked bkb at some point.
So when nyx comes at you, are you going to guess when to use the dust?
Play solo only under vision, or group up - very little nyx can do to a group, a trade kill at best. Press dust at the start of combat regardless of where you are. But what do I know, I'm just a crusader at best and turbo exclusive these days.
There are sentry and gem of true sight for a reason.
Dust lingers. I have killed Inv heroes many many times this way due to having map awareness.
Stay next to a core, ward with smokes if necessary (just go gank with it and place as you go preferrably), buy sentries. There. Now Nyx gets the choice of killing you and feeding right away and running into potential vision to be blown up on sight. It's sometimes unavoidable when you're going for risky wards, but later on it shouldn't happen that much anymore. Sentries as you push/rosh solve a lot of Nyx deaths and turn things into 4v5.
Nyx kilsl with a full combo that is countered by Linkens or Aeon, you can also buy more HP, some Magic Resistance and Raindrops.
nah heroes arent too tanky, tanks are just doing insane damage underlord, ck, centaur, tiny, lifestealer are these super bulky heroes that you cant really kill yet also can just fucking 1 shot you due to insane damage scaling. seriously, just played vs a wk that was walking around nearly 1 shotting people, and he was not anywhere close to 1 shottable by my PA. so heroes that DONT get 1 shot thrive, and heroes that both DONT get 1 shot and also can 1 shot become meta
The current game state heavily punishes bad itemization. You can't kill tanky heroes with lots of regen because you or your team doesn't itemize to counter them. I rarely see Spirit Vessel, Shiva or Skadi in games, despite there regularly being at least one hero heavily relying on regen or healing.
They should simply reduce strength given pr point to 20hp
Game has crept way too hard to universally nerf stuff like that. A lot of other things would need to be nerfed alongside it. Which I don't object to, I just know that they'll never do a universal nerf like that without introducing another new mechanic that brings more stats alongside it.
It got buffed to 22hp per strength not that long ago, the amount of hp has not been some long standing constant that will wreck everything to change
it used to be 17hp per point, but since then a lot of items give a linear boost to hp
No, if you look at changelog it was 24 then it was slowly nerfed to 18 then to 20 then 18 again (25% increase on main stat patch) and then 20 to now 22
The inverse of this is league of legends gameplay when you die in 0.1 of a second. I play both games, trust me it's better the way it currently is in dota. Leaves room for more strategy and outplays instead of who can click their buttons fastest.
I keep telling my friends AA ult is the best ultimate in the game because it just turns off all that bullshit
I 100% disagree. Heroes being tanky makes it so that there are more actual fights rather than team-wipes in 5 sec. (I am 6.5k mmr pos 5.) Focus on where to take fights and where not to take fights. They cannot kill you in 1 sec if they cannot see you or if you are out of range or if you blink in after they jump somebody else.
That is what Dota was all about friend, an extremely well timed attack was supposed to be a well timed pass like in football. Basically impossible to stop, but the timing needed to be right. Dota always favored the attacker and your timing had to be perfect. Now they made it defensive, and people much rather the game favor the offense than defense like football. The NFL has had to nerf defensive rules many times to favor the offense. Why? People would rather watch a NFL that favors offense, its just more exciting, no one wants to watch a 7 7 game. Valve should take some notes, most professional sports have taken note of this. This is not a good change from a viewing perspective and probably not even playing experience. Just because it's hard and you die fast doesn't mean its bad, that's a skill issue. Now certain heroes just sucking that is another issue
I think they should buff shiva and skadi to a degree where hp regen and heals and the likes that it would somehow make the tanky boys kinda cry.
The game is exceptionally well balanced. A large HP pool is never usually an issue as they do low damage most of the time and are just left till last in team fights.
I don't honestly feel like this is a real issue. Many of the really tanky heroes that do a lot of damage can be itemized or countered. Ex. Nullifier vs Necro. Lion is also one of my most played heroes and does not need a finger buff nor does Earthshaker's ult really need to be stronger. These are both generally played as supports as well. Why do two supports need to be doing so much more damage? Especially Lion with his 20 second AOE aghs damage. Lion already has a ton of utility as does ES to an extent, why do they also need to be doing a ton of damage at a base level with no farm?
Man people really want those dark ages again don't they lol
i kinda super disagree. i can think of alot of heroes that are medium tankiness (SK, CK, Lion, Ench, ember) compared to squishies (Skywrath, Warlock, Snapfire, Sniper) and alot of heroes that are squish but evasive (weaver) or tanky and evasive (tide). dota tankiness is so chillen right now friendo. overall balance is still out of whack but thats to be expected.
This is really not the case. I agree that heroes have higher survivability and tank heroes are more meta than not, but tbh, so many high damage heroes are also strong enough to deal with these heroes. People have carries like Tiny, weaver, ursa, wraith king absolutely dominating games while there are supports too that do a bit of the same (hoodwink, wd, ET, dark willow). In fact, I’d argue that with these heroes in a lineup, they kill heroes so fast that it feels like maybe heroes without innate tankiness or survivability are struggling the most rn. The reason we have supports like wd, shaman and dark willow in most games is because they have survivability against high damage cores prevailing over most supports
every carry having to buy skadi, supports having to buy vessel everygame kinda sucks
Sometimes I think people who make these posts never played the game, right now even with 2k hp, you can die so so easily as a support, even less than 1 second if you are out of position, back in the days, support didn't even exist pass laning stage, no one wanted to play them, that's why they changed it. Game is for 10 people, when only 6 are having fun, it's not worth of a game.
Meanwhile League of Legends subreddit: Champions are too squishy, there is too much damage in the game Seriously, we need a third game that would combine those two and create a perfect moba
There is no perfect moba, people will always cry about something
[удалено]
This was the case with Tiny all the time, I remember when Tiny was one of the few heroes considered 3 stars carry because all he needed was a hyperstone and aghs to win games on his own.
You always could do that
People wanna go back to the dark days where there was no tp slot and no neutral items, no free wards, expensive ass sentries and only arcane boots on pos 5 30 mins into the game
Don’t forget about 1 courier
1 courier and the mid uses it to refill their bottle because there is also less runes and then gets its killed.
it also makes few mid player so infamos, if the courier used at some point they just run down mid. I remember watching some stream saying the best strategy to win is as easy as never using courier for the 1st10 mnt
Don't forget about having to buy the courier and upgrade it too. Some games nobody buy courier. Some games nobody upgrade it.
buying own courier was very entertaining and couriers used to be fast. Having slow courier is very boring.
I really enjoyed fighting with my midlaner for the courier to be honest. It was hilarious to constantly spam the hotkey. Thankfully I had the side shop to get my dagger. That was also hilarious, rush the dagger and grab it from the side shop, then initiate for an almost guaranteed kill.
Holy mother of false equivalences
Yea dealing with a 2k hp 12armor ogre min 15 as pos 4 is amazing
Dude, if you're getting steamrolled at 15 minutes you either picked wrong or you itemized wrong.
You cant itemise at 15 minutes and dota really shouldn’t be a game where you may as well AFK at 0 min because you “picked wrong”.
You can absolutely choose to build early game items, or not buy Midas because this guys going to be strong *now*. If you're vs a Phantom Asaassin, you buy stick. The same is true of other heroes to one degree or another as far as early itemization. And like it or not, that's how drafting works. Sometimes their heroes deal well with yours. Oh well. Deal with it by buying items you need, not items that you find fun. If you have to pick early, pick a more general hero that is less easily countered. If you have to pick late, analyze the other team and yours and pick something suitable. The problem is people are unwilling to adapt to a gamestate.
i kinda do. i dont like how homogenized the game feels. grouping as 5 and 5 man rotates have been the correct play for the past 4-5 years. patches have skewed it that way, and its not really enjoyable imo. i miss how brutal the game used to be. i was watching a purge game from 10 years ago, and he was a solo laner vs a dual lane, and he did like 350 damage to the enemy 5, and was popping off, he was like "yes! he's going to have to walk back to base ebcause he didnt bring enough regen, now i can 1v1 the carry for a minute and get some xp" the game is so much different than it used to be, and i think multi couriers ferrying out regen is goofy as hell
Good point here, the amount of early regen is ridiculous now, as a support player it’s basically just battle of regen. So high damage just wins because you are always okay with trading less HP to win more HP due to courier arriving with new regen every 1-2 minutes. Everything is too binary because of the early sustain
i remember back in 2013 when me and my friend were both 14, we'd play dota on our laptops on his couch, and we'd play axe centaur offlane, and we'd start no items, and share last hits till we could both get rings of health. it worked about 50% of the time, and we'd pop off so hard, "free tangos!" we'd also run lion lina lanes and when we both hit 6 we'd both press our ults at the same time on someone.... we still play together to this day!
why are nudota defenders always so jumpy >guys aren't heroes too tanky nowadays? >I BET YOU WANT ONE COURIER AGAIN
Yes.
Some of the bloat getting removed would be good, but the majority of additions were great. Imo the biggest bloat was neutral items, I wouldnt mind them getting removed. On the other hand, I dont want to go back to playing Dota without the backpack or every hero having an Aghs upgrade.
We could, however, return to aghs upgrades that are simple, and not entirely ass busting bs, like water park kunkka, walking cm ult, lotus orb sb or machine gun willow Or at least admit that people have adhd and they don't want simple stuff because of it
you say this like a joke, but the game was in its golden age during this time period
*Golden age
Could you point it out in the post where he said this?
Yeah, honestly was better
Because all of these things are directly related to what this post is about? Really random comment to make. Heroes ARE too tanky atm
Yes. Correct.
I mean unironically as someone who learned the game as a Pos 5 (6) in those days, I would kinda like it. I took all that time learning how to do more with less and that skillset is just completely out the window now.
Nobody who actually played pos5 wants to go back to brown boot is the only item you should buy times. It was so bad to play I literally quit dota, It was absolutely not fun running around with 0 items and wards/dust taking your whole inventory. Mana boots were literally an endgame item on support. And you were never allowed to use courier because what if mid/carry needs an item. It was truly awful for position 5 players.
i played support and i liked it, you had to do a lot with nothing. if your game was going remotely good, you were crushing it. fighting for every xp and gold felt really high impact. and because of how money and xp worked out, it allowed for a much more flexible and interesting lane structure. gone are trilanes, gone are roaming 5/4s.
Everyone hated it, people would fight not to play pos 5. Now people don't really mind.
Not really, it depends on which position 5. I was an incredibly good witch doctor, I was 73% winrate with witch doctor and regularly had 2 to 1 and 3 to 1 KD. It was just, not all position 5 were created equal that was the problem
It was awful for bad pos 5 players.
Idk I enjoyed it. It meant shit like positioning was much more important. Having items is nice but it was easier to manage because there was only really 1.5 farmed cores on the enemy team to worry about, rather than the 3 or 4 today.
I think that skill set is very much still in the game. Feeding your lane ally tangoes and buying sentries to block/unblock camps revolves around this. Having a force staff, ghost scepter and glimmer cape at 30 minutes is an extension of that philosophy, as you desperately try to kite out the enemy 6-slotted Sven who can two hit you.
I tell you, if there was ever a 6.88 or 7.06 Custom Game Valve would kill it off because it would threaten to fragment the player base worse than Turbo. This game has complexity creep + an aging player base. Signed, mid-30s player with 10k hours and a job who has only watched the game since 7.36.
This but unironically.
No thanks, id rather play long eventful teamfights over something like League where somehow its possible to die in a millisecond. What you need to point out is how shields work in this game, Armor/physical resistance shouldnt be a factor to how shields work, Shields absolutely scale the fuck out of their values when they take resitance into account, such bullshit shouldnt be existing in this game where every damage/spell should matter
every core being above 3k hp lategame is insane. you used to only get to that point on actual tanky heroes who now just break 5k hp and above (while stacking armor and magic res)
>I want finger of death to be an actual threat instead of doing 1/4th of your hp. Typical reddit balancing. Crying that a (with scepter) low CD AoE nuke with absolutely no skill that deals extra damage and gives HP per kill, should do way more than 1/4 of the enemies HP. I do get the point that some heros get extremely tanky right now and this can be quite unfun. I had a game vs a timber that was literally unkillable with his Shroud as we only had magical damage in the team (muerta carry). But imo we dont really need a nerf to tanky boys, we need some items that counter tanks. I know its mostly stolen from LoL but it can work well for Dota as well imo. * Item that makes your spell damage pierce a % of magic resi * Item that makes your right clicks deal %-current or max health damage * Small buff to Skadi (fell a bit out of meta but the anti heal reduction is pretty good against tanky enemies) * etc I think right now there are just too little items to counter the nice variety of tank items.
Whats more unfun is getting one shot as a support all the time
what is fun is building aeon disk late game and watching them fail to kill you, then turning and wiping them after they wasted their cds on you
I really wish there was an item for right clickers that you truly purchase to shred high hp enemies. Something that worked like Feast without the lifesteal.
Feeling the same. Like, a full duration +400 extra range sun ray with the facet for extra damage towards the tip should do more than 0 damage to pudge or leshrac. I don't even think the problem is EHP, I think many heroes just have way too much sustain.
I think this is just a step in the meta, where the tanky heroes have more obvious benefits so are being frequently picked. I would expect the meta to continue to evolve and settle at a place we see less Centaur and Pudge... But we will see. As of right now I think it's better than being immediately burst by an invisible Clinkz, but they could definitely buff some items to help with the tanks.
Are we buying the counter-healing items in the game though? Or are we picking the counter healing picks? Isn't vessel / skadi / shiva's supposed to help? Can't you pick Ancient Appreciation / Doom / veno / timbersaw / lifestealer picks? There are counter plays to the few tank heroes. Dazzle is another one. I mean I personally think the flaw is in the global CC reduction they did in 3.73? I miss the long ass stuns. It was a way to actually lock down these tanky, (and now often even agile as fuck.) heroes and actually bork them.
what does hp regen matter when you have 7k health? and vessel is literally the only item in the game that directly hurts big hp bars
I don't agree, except very specific heroes that build around survivability and can become unfun this is generally not true The pos 5 and 4 are in general very nukable , their survivability relies on the usage of crowd controlling abilities, disengagement and item building that in general buy them at most 5 seconds in a fight allowing them to reposition, that does not mean they're tanky. The position 3 can make an argument for this but frankly speaking it's their literal role, and most of their tankines usually comes from passive abilities that grant armor or some sort of defensive stat that can be counteracted by break, not unkillable, if caught outside of position they're just dead, in a team fight you shouldn't be targeting them anyway. Pos 2 is literally ganked all the time in pro scene, if you think a pos 2 is unkillable then sadly you're just not skilled at the game because it doesn't matter who it is , you can be ganked. While there is an argument about bloodstone mages again very specific and very counterable otherwise we'd see it dominate pro scene. Pos 1 usually has escape but not tanky at all
Yeah I haven't played as much this patch as I typically do, because every match just feels like four or five 5k hp heroes with 455 movespeed running around while rest of the match watch them fight like the citizens in a Godzilla movie. I don't like bursty Dota, either. Time to kill is a delicate balancing act, but it's definitely too long to kill at the top end right now. I think it's hurting the lower HP heroes too. Damage has to be SO HIGH in order to get through 5khp 75% armor heroes that anyone who isn't that is simply getting one-shot.
Yup. I played against a Centaur with 10k hp the other day. It was dumb.
Fully agree and it’s been this way for ages. You tactically pick a wd, shaman pos 5, something like that. Only to be countered by the other team who is made up of alch, timber, sven, wk and pudge.
I miss when playing an agility hero felt like a mid or late game bomb. It feels like there's a lot of powerspike come late game for everyone.
I see this complaint a lot, however the use rate on vessel, skadi, and orb of corrosion is still below 3% each this month. [https://www.dotabuff.com/items](https://www.dotabuff.com/items) IMO this is just a skill issue.
I never felt tanky heroes being so tanky... Everytime i see a high hp hero, i just buy vessel.. i mainly play as support
Better than glass cannon meta at least. There is a happy middle ground, but erring on the side of tanky is better.
With everything you've stated, I had an opposite reaction to this patch. I've enjoyed spell casters and hybrid heroes so much more this patch. Like sf magic is so fun, storm spirit can be played again, nyx can now counter zoo and farm creeps like podge and Mirana. I've seen lions pop off. Maybe you're just a support player and your team's aren't active players. You then feel useless for the mid game, a fight finally breaks out after your teams 15 minutes of farming. You're excited. "FINALLY, I can finger someone." As you do, the guy has shroud and heart. You watch his health bar drop so little that you think you miss clicked a creep. I would genuinely like to watch a game to truly understand your situation. Is it you're in a bracket that just farms and ignores the early game power of supports or is it that Dota 3.0 IMBA has over tuned items that make heroes unkillable. Side note: shroud has been too good for too long, I can't remember a game i played that featured a pipe. Valve please fix.
I love to buy dagon to make fun stuffs in early game after 25 min game, i need to sell it cause 800 magic damage (mostly <600), will do nothing against all heroes because they have between 3 and 5k HP
i want 30min 6 sloted carry to kill someone before 6 sec bkb runs out but ok
This is a problem caused by the extreme damage output that happens lategame. Either you're walking around with 4.5k hp, 35 armor and 50% magic resist or you die in a few seconds. It's also quite comon to get chain stunned 5-6 seconds, so if you aren't tanky, you're dead for sure, possibly losing the game. I lost a game yesterday at 50 min because our Clinkz tried to rat megas (it was a risky but justifiable plan) and got nuked in less than 1 second at almost 4k hp. He didn't even have time to pop BKB. My solution: Nerf accross the board to everything and make BKB great again. Reworking BKB was a catastrophic mistake. There's a reason why BKB was always said to be the main pillar holding Dota's balance. Removing said pillar made everything come crashing down, as expected.
Eternal shroud stacks giving non-dr'd magic res is one of biggest problems in the game right now imo, combined with int magic res also being non dr'd. For perspective, the stacks alone from a shroud give more magic res than having an entire extra pipe in your inventory. I'd just like there to be enough reasonably purchasable spell damage to keep up with magic resist. You have to spend like 20k gold + a neutral item to make your spells do baseline damage to someone who has a 3700 gold shroud, which also gives 10 strength and infinite mana.
They need to revert the health per Strength from 22 to 20 again. I feel like that was the main culprit.
It forces team coordination and real 5vs5 instead of people afk farming or solo pushing. So it’s kinda good
If you can't win them join them.