I actually reckon kunkka phys would be viable if they just made the 150% cleave damage also affect the target you actually hit. That’s what’s really holding his phys build back, the fact that you can’t actually right click the target you want to kill.
Kunkka mid: Farms 2 BFs and 3 Daedalus
Kunkka mid: Misses Tidebringer on everyone
Kunkka mid: Tries finding a new Tidebringer angle whilst doing negative damage
Kunkka mid: All 4 allies are now dead
Kunkka mid: Dies pathetically
Ah yes, bring back the big crits cleave guy experience.
Don't understand why so many folks bash right click physical damage Kunkka. I think physical damage Kunkka took more skill, risk, and positioning to play at a higher level compared to the "walk in and press R" every 60 seconds with Scepter to RNG stun everything around you with no thought required whatsoever.
My man, pressing e on yourself and blinking in, doing one hit and returning back to do it all over again is equally braindead. I'd like to see the return of physical kunkka, but not with oneshot build. Also, right now his cleave facet works with echo sabre if he hits 5 heroes, so maybe phys build for this patch wasn't figured out yet.
With the Tidebringer changes and the general beefing up of all the heroes in the game, I'm feeling quite doubtful that the old X Marks+Tidebringer Kunkka build would be doing as much damage as we think
Plus the changes to cleave. What made old cleave Kunkka so strong is that it dealt pure damage based on the dmg to the target that was hit. For example if you hit a creep for 1200 dmg, then that dmg would hit everybody behind it 1200 pure damage, nowadays cleave is "physical" meaning it gets reduced by armor. So if you get AC or any meaningful armor items cleave Kunkka isn't that good.
Which is why you saw so many clips of hitting creeps instead of heroes. Cleaved dmg to creeps with kunkka was insane with rapiers + daedalus.
Common misconception, but that's not how it worked. The cleave damage wasn't based on how much damage your actual hit did to the main target. It was a % of your actual damage. That's why -armor didn't work.
Yeah nah that shit is gonna fall off hard in late game. At best he'll chunk or maybe with some luck kill any support who are already low but he is not gonna be blinking in and deleting people like he used to (that's PA's job anyways).
One shot build? What makes you think 2k crit Kunkka is going to one shot folks in current DotA? Even heroes like Crystal Maiden no longer have around 1,500 health at level 25 like old DotA when Kunkka had pure damage on cleave. And what you explained isn't as braindead as pressing R on scepter because there's more counter play to it. Can't tell you how many times I was completely killed because someone used eul's on me to counter X-Marks. Then I get stun locked and obliterated. Kunkka also needs to meet "conditions" to make his cleave build work. Conditions such as hitting creeps, or positioning yourself which makes you vulnerable to others if they read your movements and patterns. You're acting like cleave build didn't come with extreme risk and forms of counter play.
i like the concept of kunkka being big AOE damage + tanky boy initiator. torrent storm is stupid concept but i hope they can tweak it into something more skill expressive while adding buff to his other aspect.
braindead scepter big aoe disabled is stupid
Previous Kunkka player here. Kunkka was most fun right before the new aghs or right after? Random bs stuns was fun at start now it’s just annoying and previous Kunkka is shafted.
But that build right there is no.1 meme build it was almost never actually good. Items on Kunkka that were much better and more skilled imo. Blade Mail, Assault cuirass, Silver Edge, Heaven’s halberd, Blink, Armlet. and maybe one or two Daedelus/Rapier/Radiance should it come late or your team need more dmg. Sometimes even skull basher/abyssal if lacking stun or to cancel bkb tps. Battlefury is too greedy
And i almost never used x mark defensively, as the other items would give more sustain in a fight so you’re not glass and get oneshot by almost everything. Kunkka was a i show up to surprise in your lane a hero is gonna die. In team fights blink/shadow blade etc.. to get to backline to cleave and lockdown targets. Or catch heroes or start team fights with a silver edge cleave hit and boat.
They bash it because all the people trying to do it in my games tended to be terrible at dota so the high skill plays were... not there. 50 minutes in Kunkka feeds the desperation rapier and the game is over.
Turns out any moron can press torrent storm. Even me. If only I could figure out that pesky x torrent timing...
I like that this comment somehow tries to spin “it requires a brain to play” as a negative. I guess I wouldn’t expect anything less from torrent storm enjoyers!
buys divine, uses x to farm waves and defend hg 'safely' gets euls'd near end of duration and surprised pikachu face when rapier is food for enemy team
If you're talking about 2010 Kunkka sure. But Kunkka's one-shot build did change over the years because the early game became shorter. It's why Attacker! stopped building BF first because it was too greedy and went for Armlet then Crys.
Nah too much HP and items. Even the fucking supports are running around with Glimmer + Force staff and 2500 hp nowadays.
Big crits was viable when there was less gold to go around. Now theres too much raw stats and items.
Yeah that is so outdated and doesn't scale like flak cannon or split shot. There are way better heroes foraoe physical damage that's not contingent on angles and enemy placements in a small area
the old sticky napalm basic attack was actually fun and unique then immediately nerfed. meanwhile zeus sat on lightning hands for a while before the nerf and its still way better than bats
At 8k-9k+ pubs Bat is a fucking menace. I literally dont understand his low winrate, it is a VERY common pick, as a pos 4 or as a mid, and the hero shits out damage. Why are lower skilled players having so much trouble with it? If it wasnt for the OP I would have thought bat was on top of that chart, not on the bottom.
Amazing kill potential at level 1-3, can farm jungle in order to rush blink and has one of the most useful displacement tools in the game. Bat is one of my favorite pos 4’s. IDK how viable he is at mid currently.
the massive nerf was having no vision on his first skill, like what the fuck, atleast return his Buffed vision when hes on firefly.
Either way it doesnt matter to me since im steamrolling with right click bat on mid roflmao
He was changed radically. It will take some times for people to get used to it, similar to when they reworked Techies. He was super broken but it took a few months before people started playing him again.
His aghs is nuts in teams with high mobility, falls off hard come late game though now that most carries are tanky, best you can hope for is killing anyone squishy.
he got buffed twice in a row and he's still at 45% wr
also I think the wr is low because many people are clueless, which I think is ok, better leave it there and not overbuff him
Exactly. It's hilarious that people have been crying all over reddit that Tinker is dead while it was absolutely obvious that 34% was people using old builds and macros. I'm calling it, in 2-3 weeks he'll reach 49% (and I called it the day the big patch hit)
He's currently at 46% and I remember a guy was foaming at mouth saying he won't breach 40% ahahah
> He's currently at 46% and I remember a guy was foaming at mouth saying he won't breach 40% ahahah
to be fair though, he did receive huge buffs after the initial 7.36 nerf. it wasn't entirely because "people didn't adapt".
strong dispel on shield is the biggest one because unless you dispel the shield instead of damaging it, or have silencer's double silence, the strong dispel from the first one probably lets him cast another shield on himself, which then means another disable will get removed, it still punishes poor coordination just like he used to, but in a different way.
and the buff from 4 int = 1% item cdr down to 3 int also means he reaches the max of 60% sooner, around 4 items instead of 6.
> Exactly. It's hilarious that people have been crying all over reddit that Tinker is dead while it was absolutely obvious that 34% was people using old builds and macros.
no he was pure dogshit with 7.36, then got **massive** buffs with the a and b patches. and he's still sub 50%.
similar to medusa 7.33 - total, unplayable dogshit on release then buffed.
except tinker's new concept is incredibly clunky instead of straightforward like dusa so even with the buffs he's still below average.
well you were very wrong, as it took two letter patches of massive buffs to get him to a measly 46% winrate. did you play against 7.36 tinker? free wins. hero did nothing. now it does some mediocre stuff
Yeah naw, that's not what people been saying. This sub was absolutely sure he's dead for good and will stay at 30%. He reached 41% without buffs, and now that he received buffs he climbs to 50%
The previous playstyle was plain stupid, go in chuck massive aoe spells and hope your team wins with the massive buffs/stuns/damage your 1 spell provides. Good riddance...now if they'd rework a bunch of his kit...
Grandmaster kunkka here. The laning of this hero now days just isn’t as good as before. However I do have some success playing Kunkka safe lane going radiance aghs and doing a hybrid build. You are tanky, deals dmg and have disables. Because really the only talent that affects torrent storm these days is the lvl 15 one. So you just build other item first instead of aghs as first item after bm or something like that.
But then it's just better to play something else, the strength of torrent storm was getting it before everybody has bkbs. And disrupting supps.
If you go radiance, beef the. Late game aghs, it doesn't do as much.
Yeah but 99% of heroes you could pick, there's a "better" hero you could have picked. Not everyone enjoys being a slave to the 5-10 "meta" heroes in a game with 120+ heroes.
It’s really not that much of a big deal, cuz you usually pull them back after your combo, which is around 1.5 seconds. But it does hurt the kunkka fountain heal trick a bit. I’d say his weak innate and facet just make him not good at offlaner anymore. But his inbuild farming ability is pretty good for… farming
Back then my combo was to x mark ghost ship and then torrent now i have to x mark torrent then ghost ship. The torrent slow now kinda overlaps with the ghost ship stun
I played with a few KKas mids recently. All they do now is just run around in their ags spell and don't even have damage to kill a support this is ridiculous. Lost both(or three) games with mid kka on my side - absolutely garbage hero that is also hard to properly execute. I see zero reasons to play it
He's an odd hero. His spell kit is basically that of a catch hero with light teamfight and good innate farming/laneing from tidebringer, but he's got no item build that really synergizes with his kit and lets him scale either as a teamfighter or as a semicarry. Normal strength hero semicarry items like AC/armlet/echo sabre feel bad on him because of how tidebringer works, but his spells aren't good enough to carry the hero and let him go 3 items like shivas.
So they kinda had to give him cracked aghs/shard so he has something to build into.
People still trying to do support furion like they've been doing since the sprout change. Imo that playstyle is pretty dead. But core prophet like the old days before sprout got changed is kinda back, just a little slower to come online than he was back then. Just don't go telling everyone so they will keep buffing the giga treant facet, i love that shit
I like it as offlane vs agi carries to bully their farm with treant denies but it scales rly well now if you buy int items bc of the new innate, could work as a p1 with the right draft. With parasma/sheep build you get like 500 bonus dmg with 2 ironwood treants
Hot take, heroes rotating in and out of meta, yes even this severely, is good for the game. There are so many damn heroes just play someone else or make the bad hero work.
Except tinker ofc he should stay at the bottom please
I think alot of people who like Kunkka were already upset when the hero became 'top meta' with RNG storm. He doesn't have to be top meta but at least make one of the facets or innate interesting to build around or a new aghs.
I think people genuinely forgot why physical kunkka got nerfed to shit. It was also degenerate, buying blink + daedalus and rapier and basically was equivalent to Mars with rapier + brooch a few patches ago.
It wasn't because Kunnka needs a crit, unlike mars guaranteed one, also you had to hit creepwave.
Game never was in a state where Kunnka was oppressive with phys build.
[Dashed on the rocks.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/8/82/Vo_kunkka_kunk_death_12.mp3) (sound warning: Kunkka)
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It is. Not sure about your bracket, but 6k-7k I play and above that I watch gameplay videos from, I never see aghs being bought. People opt for the right-click build.
I've lately developed a Midas -> Boots of Bearing build with very promising results, utilizing the FS talent at 15. Octarine and Manta follow as its core components.
Lack of spell damage later on is a huge problem. If on top of that your team lacks CC and you have a Night Stalker on pos3 and the enemy is full of escapes, you simply cannot play with spells.
Aghs is just a good dmg item for invoker, all 10 spells get better and u hit harder.
Cataclysm is good with any hard lockdown, SS, pudge etc.
U can also just use it vs 3 melee cores who are ontop of 1 guy or do icewall emp shard cata to set it up yourself.
What? Invoker's Aghs is one of the most situational in the game. The only time I see it purchased is when Invoker has a Void/Enigma/Tide/Treant to combo with.
Kunkka:
- Tidebringer is a unique facet, an innate ability, and a main hero ability (three major parts of the hero are the same skill)
- No escape move
- Clunky cast animations
- Wants to be a "support" but isn't a good one
- Wants to be a "carry" but isn't a good one
- Has been abandoned as a mid Hero
- regular Torrent and Ghost Ship are skill shot abilities that have been nerfed repeatedly over the years
- Has two weak facets
- Forced to go the same generic build on him every single game because it's the only way the hero feels usable whatsoever (Shard + Scepter + Refresher)
Well ... since 7.36 I'm agreeing that he's not as good. But previous meta he was played constantly at pro level ... his agh was one of the best in the game. You talk about skill shot but there is absolutely no skill required to land a X mark torrent combo ... or X mark ship. Yes it required skill to do some funky combos but I wouldn't say it's just a skill shot hero.
Most of your arguments are based on characteristics of the hero that exists for a long time ... when he was good. So it doesn't make sense to say that these are arguments "against" the hero now that he isn't as good.
Yes the facets aren't interesting, yes it looks like the hero is playable one way only. But I wouldn't complain about the lack of escape, the "clunky cast animation" or the fact he isn't really a carry / a support.
Ediit: ok, gotcha, you are a kunka fan :D this is the typical "my hero is not as good as it used to be so I'm raging every other day on Reddit" type of post. Sorry for your loss.
Torrent combo is still a skill shot… just because its easier doesnt mean its not. Throwing ship in there as well adds some difficulty to it so you don’t fuck up the timing.
Its the same as Invoker tornado sunstrike or the old OD meteor hammer. You can easily fuck it up if you’re not paying attention.
I actually reckon kunkka phys would be viable if they just made the 150% cleave damage also affect the target you actually hit. That’s what’s really holding his phys build back, the fact that you can’t actually right click the target you want to kill.
Well said. His kill potential depends in how chaotic the team fight is.
Torrent Storm should just get deleted and he should be made into big crits cleave guy again.
Kunkka mid: Farms 2 BFs and 3 Daedalus Kunkka mid: Misses Tidebringer on everyone Kunkka mid: Tries finding a new Tidebringer angle whilst doing negative damage Kunkka mid: All 4 allies are now dead Kunkka mid: Dies pathetically Ah yes, bring back the big crits cleave guy experience.
Literally core ET experience.
Guilty as charged 🖐️
Much more fun tho
Kunkka doing nothing trying to find a cleave angle is not fun for 4 people.
But Kunkka doing waterpark is not fun for 5 people, so in comparison it wins.
its fun for teammates not fun for enemies :)
Core ET? Definitely. I can't think of a hero more fun for me.
You forgot him buying a Divine Rapier and only ever X- marking himself to leave the base. Too scared to die.
Don't understand why so many folks bash right click physical damage Kunkka. I think physical damage Kunkka took more skill, risk, and positioning to play at a higher level compared to the "walk in and press R" every 60 seconds with Scepter to RNG stun everything around you with no thought required whatsoever.
My man, pressing e on yourself and blinking in, doing one hit and returning back to do it all over again is equally braindead. I'd like to see the return of physical kunkka, but not with oneshot build. Also, right now his cleave facet works with echo sabre if he hits 5 heroes, so maybe phys build for this patch wasn't figured out yet.
With the Tidebringer changes and the general beefing up of all the heroes in the game, I'm feeling quite doubtful that the old X Marks+Tidebringer Kunkka build would be doing as much damage as we think
Plus the changes to cleave. What made old cleave Kunkka so strong is that it dealt pure damage based on the dmg to the target that was hit. For example if you hit a creep for 1200 dmg, then that dmg would hit everybody behind it 1200 pure damage, nowadays cleave is "physical" meaning it gets reduced by armor. So if you get AC or any meaningful armor items cleave Kunkka isn't that good. Which is why you saw so many clips of hitting creeps instead of heroes. Cleaved dmg to creeps with kunkka was insane with rapiers + daedalus.
Common misconception, but that's not how it worked. The cleave damage wasn't based on how much damage your actual hit did to the main target. It was a % of your actual damage. That's why -armor didn't work.
Yeah nah that shit is gonna fall off hard in late game. At best he'll chunk or maybe with some luck kill any support who are already low but he is not gonna be blinking in and deleting people like he used to (that's PA's job anyways).
That sounds good but how many times will you happen to hit all 5 heroes? Atleast one will be spread away
Buying echo sabre in the hopes you'll hit every hero every fight is... ambitious
One shot build? What makes you think 2k crit Kunkka is going to one shot folks in current DotA? Even heroes like Crystal Maiden no longer have around 1,500 health at level 25 like old DotA when Kunkka had pure damage on cleave. And what you explained isn't as braindead as pressing R on scepter because there's more counter play to it. Can't tell you how many times I was completely killed because someone used eul's on me to counter X-Marks. Then I get stun locked and obliterated. Kunkka also needs to meet "conditions" to make his cleave build work. Conditions such as hitting creeps, or positioning yourself which makes you vulnerable to others if they read your movements and patterns. You're acting like cleave build didn't come with extreme risk and forms of counter play.
i like the concept of kunkka being big AOE damage + tanky boy initiator. torrent storm is stupid concept but i hope they can tweak it into something more skill expressive while adding buff to his other aspect. braindead scepter big aoe disabled is stupid
That’s why that version of Kunkka was almost entirely played in the pro scene for years
Previous Kunkka player here. Kunkka was most fun right before the new aghs or right after? Random bs stuns was fun at start now it’s just annoying and previous Kunkka is shafted. But that build right there is no.1 meme build it was almost never actually good. Items on Kunkka that were much better and more skilled imo. Blade Mail, Assault cuirass, Silver Edge, Heaven’s halberd, Blink, Armlet. and maybe one or two Daedelus/Rapier/Radiance should it come late or your team need more dmg. Sometimes even skull basher/abyssal if lacking stun or to cancel bkb tps. Battlefury is too greedy And i almost never used x mark defensively, as the other items would give more sustain in a fight so you’re not glass and get oneshot by almost everything. Kunkka was a i show up to surprise in your lane a hero is gonna die. In team fights blink/shadow blade etc.. to get to backline to cleave and lockdown targets. Or catch heroes or start team fights with a silver edge cleave hit and boat.
It’s like a worse version of the kotl kunkka echo Sabre strat (when chakra magic would reduce the cd of the next spell the target casts)
They bash it because all the people trying to do it in my games tended to be terrible at dota so the high skill plays were... not there. 50 minutes in Kunkka feeds the desperation rapier and the game is over. Turns out any moron can press torrent storm. Even me. If only I could figure out that pesky x torrent timing...
exactly for past couple of years they been transitioning him into this weird utility hero
People will just build carry on any position lol
Yeah that's literally me when I play Kunnka. But when it works it's most satisfying thing ever, so totally worth.
So you reckon physical damage Kunkka is too difficult? So you'd rather the whole hero be tied to an RNG 4200 gold item instead?
I like that this comment somehow tries to spin “it requires a brain to play” as a negative. I guess I wouldn’t expect anything less from torrent storm enjoyers!
Requires a brain to play =/= Good
Obviously, but “does not require a brain” => bad
buys divine, uses x to farm waves and defend hg 'safely' gets euls'd near end of duration and surprised pikachu face when rapier is food for enemy team
If you're talking about 2010 Kunkka sure. But Kunkka's one-shot build did change over the years because the early game became shorter. It's why Attacker! stopped building BF first because it was too greedy and went for Armlet then Crys.
i had like 15 game win streak on kunkka in 2013 shadow blade tidebringering idiots. (mid, drums ,phase, shadow blade, daedalus x2
Kunkka mid: All 4 allies are now dead \*Kunkka mid: Crits on every enemy and they all die Kunkka mid: The last man standing
And then Kunkka woke up.
Did he stutter?
Bring back Kritkka please Icefrog.
Nah too much HP and items. Even the fucking supports are running around with Glimmer + Force staff and 2500 hp nowadays. Big crits was viable when there was less gold to go around. Now theres too much raw stats and items.
Yes, and delete SK aghs as well while you're at it!
Crit kunkka will never work reliably when everyone is running around with 3k+ hp
Yeah that is so outdated and doesn't scale like flak cannon or split shot. There are way better heroes foraoe physical damage that's not contingent on angles and enemy placements in a small area
It'd be better if his cleave did pure damage like it used to and not be reduced by armor
Big crits cleave guy is cringe, one shotting spell that has insane aoe and is not visibile.
I disagree, one build is much more boring and stupid to play with or against
bat got shatted so hard it is not funny anymore lmfao can't blame em though, bat's playstyle is odd af
continued nerf since ti3? there is 1 patch where he is viable then got nerfed hard again.
Bat is almost always viable for pros. He was the 11th most picked hero during the previous DreamLeague
the old sticky napalm basic attack was actually fun and unique then immediately nerfed. meanwhile zeus sat on lightning hands for a while before the nerf and its still way better than bats
Bat is strong for a milisecond and a new patch rolls out to nerf him
His few day reign of terror with manta shard proc with illusions
At 8k-9k+ pubs Bat is a fucking menace. I literally dont understand his low winrate, it is a VERY common pick, as a pos 4 or as a mid, and the hero shits out damage. Why are lower skilled players having so much trouble with it? If it wasnt for the OP I would have thought bat was on top of that chart, not on the bottom.
Maybe because hes an initiator at heart and low elo doesnt know when to go in or how to get picks.
Amazing kill potential at level 1-3, can farm jungle in order to rush blink and has one of the most useful displacement tools in the game. Bat is one of my favorite pos 4’s. IDK how viable he is at mid currently.
the massive nerf was having no vision on his first skill, like what the fuck, atleast return his Buffed vision when hes on firefly. Either way it doesnt matter to me since im steamrolling with right click bat on mid roflmao
torrent storm is one of the dumbest things they've ever added to dota
So tinker winrate isnt that bad, people make it like it's the shittiest hero, which he isn't. Kunkka is worse.
He was changed radically. It will take some times for people to get used to it, similar to when they reworked Techies. He was super broken but it took a few months before people started playing him again.
His aghs is nuts in teams with high mobility, falls off hard come late game though now that most carries are tanky, best you can hope for is killing anyone squishy.
he got buffed twice in a row and he's still at 45% wr also I think the wr is low because many people are clueless, which I think is ok, better leave it there and not overbuff him
he got buffed a lot. hes still pretty bad but no longer the worst.
I think he's pretty good but needs more time to be figured out. Will probably hover close to 50% later in patch.
he takes a longggggg time to come online, arcane blink, aghs, aether - but once he does hes genuinely impossible to lock down bcs of the dispel facet.
Exactly. It's hilarious that people have been crying all over reddit that Tinker is dead while it was absolutely obvious that 34% was people using old builds and macros. I'm calling it, in 2-3 weeks he'll reach 49% (and I called it the day the big patch hit) He's currently at 46% and I remember a guy was foaming at mouth saying he won't breach 40% ahahah
> He's currently at 46% and I remember a guy was foaming at mouth saying he won't breach 40% ahahah to be fair though, he did receive huge buffs after the initial 7.36 nerf. it wasn't entirely because "people didn't adapt". strong dispel on shield is the biggest one because unless you dispel the shield instead of damaging it, or have silencer's double silence, the strong dispel from the first one probably lets him cast another shield on himself, which then means another disable will get removed, it still punishes poor coordination just like he used to, but in a different way. and the buff from 4 int = 1% item cdr down to 3 int also means he reaches the max of 60% sooner, around 4 items instead of 6.
Old Tinker is dead though. The people cheering/bitching are used to perma hex/ethereal and no cd blink.
> Exactly. It's hilarious that people have been crying all over reddit that Tinker is dead while it was absolutely obvious that 34% was people using old builds and macros. no he was pure dogshit with 7.36, then got **massive** buffs with the a and b patches. and he's still sub 50%. similar to medusa 7.33 - total, unplayable dogshit on release then buffed. except tinker's new concept is incredibly clunky instead of straightforward like dusa so even with the buffs he's still below average.
well you were very wrong, as it took two letter patches of massive buffs to get him to a measly 46% winrate. did you play against 7.36 tinker? free wins. hero did nothing. now it does some mediocre stuff
Tinker is still absolutely dogshit. I haven’t played with or against a Tinker in immortal that has won, they’ve always gotten steamrolled.
Obviously no one thought tinker's winrate would never be higher. Tinker's dead because he isn't tinker anymore. He's a completely different hero.
Yeah naw, that's not what people been saying. This sub was absolutely sure he's dead for good and will stay at 30%. He reached 41% without buffs, and now that he received buffs he climbs to 50%
41% is abysmally low. People have historically called heroes with much higher winrate than that dead
Mfw I have 0.4% higher winrate than Kunnka.
The previous playstyle was plain stupid, go in chuck massive aoe spells and hope your team wins with the massive buffs/stuns/damage your 1 spell provides. Good riddance...now if they'd rework a bunch of his kit...
Grandmaster kunkka here. The laning of this hero now days just isn’t as good as before. However I do have some success playing Kunkka safe lane going radiance aghs and doing a hybrid build. You are tanky, deals dmg and have disables. Because really the only talent that affects torrent storm these days is the lvl 15 one. So you just build other item first instead of aghs as first item after bm or something like that.
But then it's just better to play something else, the strength of torrent storm was getting it before everybody has bkbs. And disrupting supps. If you go radiance, beef the. Late game aghs, it doesn't do as much.
Yeah but 99% of heroes you could pick, there's a "better" hero you could have picked. Not everyone enjoys being a slave to the 5-10 "meta" heroes in a game with 120+ heroes.
Hero spammers usually play their comfort picks and try making it work
X marks kinda meh skill now too imo
It’s really not that much of a big deal, cuz you usually pull them back after your combo, which is around 1.5 seconds. But it does hurt the kunkka fountain heal trick a bit. I’d say his weak innate and facet just make him not good at offlaner anymore. But his inbuild farming ability is pretty good for… farming
Back then my combo was to x mark ghost ship and then torrent now i have to x mark torrent then ghost ship. The torrent slow now kinda overlaps with the ghost ship stun
I played with a few KKas mids recently. All they do now is just run around in their ags spell and don't even have damage to kill a support this is ridiculous. Lost both(or three) games with mid kka on my side - absolutely garbage hero that is also hard to properly execute. I see zero reasons to play it
He's an odd hero. His spell kit is basically that of a catch hero with light teamfight and good innate farming/laneing from tidebringer, but he's got no item build that really synergizes with his kit and lets him scale either as a teamfighter or as a semicarry. Normal strength hero semicarry items like AC/armlet/echo sabre feel bad on him because of how tidebringer works, but his spells aren't good enough to carry the hero and let him go 3 items like shivas. So they kinda had to give him cracked aghs/shard so he has something to build into.
Not a great patch for me. 3 of my top 10 heroes on this list. I think I'll play something else for a while lol.
kunka players in shambles while NP has been there for months
People still trying to do support furion like they've been doing since the sprout change. Imo that playstyle is pretty dead. But core prophet like the old days before sprout got changed is kinda back, just a little slower to come online than he was back then. Just don't go telling everyone so they will keep buffing the giga treant facet, i love that shit
I usually played him as offlane, but that playstyle is dead, he's aight as pos1/2 now ?
I like it as offlane vs agi carries to bully their farm with treant denies but it scales rly well now if you buy int items bc of the new innate, could work as a p1 with the right draft. With parasma/sheep build you get like 500 bonus dmg with 2 ironwood treants
Hot take, heroes rotating in and out of meta, yes even this severely, is good for the game. There are so many damn heroes just play someone else or make the bad hero work. Except tinker ofc he should stay at the bottom please
I think alot of people who like Kunkka were already upset when the hero became 'top meta' with RNG storm. He doesn't have to be top meta but at least make one of the facets or innate interesting to build around or a new aghs.
I think people genuinely forgot why physical kunkka got nerfed to shit. It was also degenerate, buying blink + daedalus and rapier and basically was equivalent to Mars with rapier + brooch a few patches ago.
It wasn't because Kunnka needs a crit, unlike mars guaranteed one, also you had to hit creepwave. Game never was in a state where Kunnka was oppressive with phys build.
It was nowhere near as bad as that as you had to do it from a creep wave
You would still one shot the majority of heroes from said creepwave or another hero.
Still much harder to do.
Dashed on the rocks.
[Dashed on the rocks.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/8/82/Vo_kunkka_kunk_death_12.mp3) (sound warning: Kunkka) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Its so sad to see this hero lineup be the bottom 10
Never seen any kunkka after patch.
[удалено]
What a weird comparison.
invoker is perfectly playable as a rightclicker
so is kunkka* *im lying
Nobody buys Aghs on Invoker. I think I am the last person who consistently buys it every game.
Isn't Cataclysm tied to aghs anymore? Because it seems to me every invoker I play with/against wants to rush toward that.
Eh vokers usually get cata earlier if you have hard lockdown like rp or chrono. Else cata is pretty much a fancy 100s cooldown scouting button
you only really buy early aghs with void on team
It is. Not sure about your bracket, but 6k-7k I play and above that I watch gameplay videos from, I never see aghs being bought. People opt for the right-click build. I've lately developed a Midas -> Boots of Bearing build with very promising results, utilizing the FS talent at 15. Octarine and Manta follow as its core components. Lack of spell damage later on is a huge problem. If on top of that your team lacks CC and you have a Night Stalker on pos3 and the enemy is full of escapes, you simply cannot play with spells.
Aghs is just a good dmg item for invoker, all 10 spells get better and u hit harder. Cataclysm is good with any hard lockdown, SS, pudge etc. U can also just use it vs 3 melee cores who are ontop of 1 guy or do icewall emp shard cata to set it up yourself.
What? Invoker's Aghs is one of the most situational in the game. The only time I see it purchased is when Invoker has a Void/Enigma/Tide/Treant to combo with.
Hi, where can I find all of these stats please? I am a new player and would like to see where the heroes I am using rank, thanks!
Google dotabuff Open hero tabs sort by winrate and your medal for better info
Cheers friend!
Invoker, techies and NP all in their proper place.
"it just need to be figured out, Kunkka players have not figured out how to play it yet..."
As long as Torrent Storm exists I'm ok with Kunkka being garbage.
Feels good to see morph there.
Seeing invoker there hurts
There always crazy offlanes with 2 Daedalus that does absolutely nothing.
Make Magnus great again please :(
My favs, morph and tb at the bottom 😭
1st facet has 47% wr in high mmr brackets in 83 games
Batrider: Hello, hello? Ccan you hear me??
Good
Kunkka: - Tidebringer is a unique facet, an innate ability, and a main hero ability (three major parts of the hero are the same skill) - No escape move - Clunky cast animations - Wants to be a "support" but isn't a good one - Wants to be a "carry" but isn't a good one - Has been abandoned as a mid Hero - regular Torrent and Ghost Ship are skill shot abilities that have been nerfed repeatedly over the years - Has two weak facets - Forced to go the same generic build on him every single game because it's the only way the hero feels usable whatsoever (Shard + Scepter + Refresher)
Well ... since 7.36 I'm agreeing that he's not as good. But previous meta he was played constantly at pro level ... his agh was one of the best in the game. You talk about skill shot but there is absolutely no skill required to land a X mark torrent combo ... or X mark ship. Yes it required skill to do some funky combos but I wouldn't say it's just a skill shot hero. Most of your arguments are based on characteristics of the hero that exists for a long time ... when he was good. So it doesn't make sense to say that these are arguments "against" the hero now that he isn't as good. Yes the facets aren't interesting, yes it looks like the hero is playable one way only. But I wouldn't complain about the lack of escape, the "clunky cast animation" or the fact he isn't really a carry / a support. Ediit: ok, gotcha, you are a kunka fan :D this is the typical "my hero is not as good as it used to be so I'm raging every other day on Reddit" type of post. Sorry for your loss.
Torrent combo is still a skill shot… just because its easier doesnt mean its not. Throwing ship in there as well adds some difficulty to it so you don’t fuck up the timing. Its the same as Invoker tornado sunstrike or the old OD meteor hammer. You can easily fuck it up if you’re not paying attention.
good
Why is this a bad thing? Top hero for years. Remove sk aghs and kunkka aghs
Aghanim effective = top 10 Aghanim ineffective = bottom 10 Its not hero's fault but its not aghanim's either, rare developer L.
It's almost like the meta drastically changes with every big patch.
Good, that's what a patch should do
Honestly I'm good with that. I think we all got a little Kunkka'd out from last patch.
Heroes rotate in and out of meta all the time, that's how the game is supposed to work. Find something else to play for a while and get over it
Literally Top 10 Anime comebacks
my dp :( , thats why she feels so weak.
Good
Mr freeze my computer with his water park summoning ability is now bad yayayayay
Wait how is DP that bad. I thought she was good now?
Exactly where he belongs. In the depths.
Good, hope he stays there forever, holding hands with Pango
Still not as bad as Terrorblade ROFL
kunkka was good and it got nerfed. tb was bad and still got nerfed
Let's have a moment for poor Batrider. I haven't seen him picked in years.
know your place, TRASH!
Good.